betting on bradley
if you're feeling uneasy about the transition the cardinals are in the midst of, read yesterday's post at USS Mariner:
Cleveland, Arizona, Colorado, and Boston aren't true "Moneyball" organizations --- they're Moneyball 2.0 clubs, the ones who have successfully integrated both scouting and statistical analysis into a cohesive organization and are leveraging every good piece of information they can find into a competitive advantage. . . . .
This isn't stats vs scouts --- this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going.
the term "every good piece of information" jumped out at me, given the source of the article; USS Mariner itself, you might recall, became a source of valuable information this summer. in its june 27 post, USSM noted a counterproductive pattern in felix hernandez's pitch selection. the team's pitching coaches (allegedly) had already noted the same pattern, but it was the USSM post that got through to hernandez; after reading it, he altered his pitch sequencing habits --- and reaped the benefits. he went 10-3 the rest of the way, shaved nearly half a run off his era, and lowered his opponent ops by about 75 points.
the point being --- blog communities made up of knowledgeable fans are among the sources of information that "moneyball 2.0" organizations have begun to use. including this blog community. i've had enough interactions with jeff luhnow and his charges to know that they read the site daily --- not just the main-page posts but also the comments and the diaries. and luhnow has a history of taking fan input seriously --- back in march 2004, shortly after he joined the cardinal front office as a consultant, luhnow wrote brian gunn soliciting input about how much the cards ought to pay edgar renteria (scroll down to the march 30 post). gunn dug into the numbers and set parameters that turned out to be right on the (literally) money --- between $8m a year (the cards' top offer to edgar) and $10m a year (what renteria got from boston).
check out brian's analysis --- it's simple, logical, and based on freely available sources of information. three and a half years later there's much better information in the public domain, and we have that much more empirical data about how the baseball marketplace values certain types of performance. (see jeff sackmann's post today at the Hardball Times for a more recent example of this type of work.) so here's a little assignment --- pick a free agent you like; rough out an estimate of what he's likely to get offered this winter (with empirical data behind the estimate); and then make your case for why that player will (or might) outperform his contract --- ie, be worth more on the field than he is in the marketplace. the guy i wrote about on tuesday, ryan franklin, is a prime example of what i'm talking about --- the market valued him at a million bucks, barely above replacement level; he delivered performance that was worth about $6 million, give or take.
in my mind, a free agent with a very good chance to outperform his contract is milton bradley. baggage? you betcha. he's fragile both emotionally and physically. between injuries, suspensions, and other aggravating factors, he has averaged just 77 games and 281 at-bats a year since 2005. but he's also a gifted 30-year-old player who gets on base, hits with considerable power, runs the bases well, and plays superior defense. those virtues appear to carry more weight than bradley's faults; he has generally been a member of winning teams. bradley has started for two division winners in the last 4 years (dodgers 04, athletics 06), and his team only missed out on the playoffs this year (san diego) because trevor hoffman blew saves in games 161 and 163. granted, bradley's tantrum on the penultimate sunday of the year didn't help matters; he lost his cool, got hurt, and missed the last 8 games of the season. but the padres still should have been in, and they wouldn't have been in that position without bradley. before he joined the padres, they were averaging just 4.26 runs a game; bradley came aboard on july 7 and produced a .313 / .414 / .590 line, which helped raise the padres' output to 4.86 runs/game the rest of the way. the team obp rose 20 points after he joined them; the team slugging, 45 points.
since 2004 bradley has posted an aggregate .830 ops despite playing in three of the toughest hitters' parks in baseball --- los angeles, oakland, and san diego. one of these years he's gonna stay healthy and out of trouble and have an all-star season while making platoon-player money --- and the team that holds that contract is gonna be in contention.
what's he likely to get offered this winter? let's start with his basic output, and leave the baggage aside for a moment. over the last three years, bradley has averaged 6 win shares above bench (WSAB), which translates to roughly 2 wins above replacement level. per Baseball Prospectus' WARP (wins above replacement), bradley has been worth about 3 marginal wins a year since 2005. both these figures are unadjusted for playing time --- that's what bradley has contributed in half a season, basically. if he could ever stay on the field for 130 games, we can safely assume that he'd be worth 5 or 6 wins --- slightly better than chris duncan, if you want a comparison.
a player like that is worth $10m a year on the open market; bradley clearly isn't going to get offered $10m. so what will he get offered? given the glut of available outfielders this year, i think he'll go cheap; that's just my gut. guys like andruw jones, aaron rowand, torii hunter, and bob abreu are going to attract all the big-money offers, and still-useful geezers like luis gonzalez, kenny lofton, and moises alou will draw lots of interest on one-year pacts; there are also plenty of reliable mid-level players out there mike cameron and shawn green and brad wilkerson. given all those alternatives, teams are likely to shy away from a baggage-y player like bradley. so i think he'll slip through the cracks and go for less than what his "objective" market value is.
objectively, that value is about $6m a year --- that's the average taken from the Hardball Times win shares calculator and Baseball Prospectus' MORP estimator, using his 3-year averages of WSAB and WARP, respectively. realistically, i think the cardinals can get him for $4m a year or less. let's take a look at a few fairly comparable players:
| player | years | avg G | avg AB | overall WSAB |
overall WARP |
overall OPS |
signing |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| dave dellucci | 2004-06 | 122 | 343 | 14 | 7.9 | .856 | 3 yrs / $11m |
| frank catalanotto | 2004-06 | 111 | 368 | 15 | 11.0 | .799 | 3 yrs / $13.5m |
| eric byrnes | 2003-05 | 127 | 447 | 12 | 14.2 | .763 | 1 yr / $2.3m |
| nomar garciaparra | 2003-05 | 103 | 403 | 25 | 12.9 | .844 | 1 yr / $6m |
| bradley | 2005-07 | 77 | 281 | 18 | 12.0 | .855 | ???? |
these are all part-time outfielders (except garciaparra) of a similar age to bradley; the average annual salary is $4m. it's a short list of comps; if i had more time, i'd come up with more. but i think $4m a year is a pretty reasonable guess for this player.
he's worth that easy, even if he only manages to play half a season. if he plays 100 games, you're way ahead on the deal; if you get lucky and he stays out there for 140 games, you've got a gold mine. i see very little downside and loads upon loads of upside; my kind of bet.
so that's my message to the front office --- take a close look at milton bradley. sound off on him if you want (should be a fair number of "he's not worthy of the the birds on the bat!!!" comments), but better yet name somebody else who you think will be a good value buy this off-season --- and explain why.
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comments
Comments
solid rationale
I think you did a good job with the comps. All are very talented guys who are injury prone. Although I wonder if those comps seem more like max-effort guys. What's Bradley's reputation for giving 100%? Obviously we know about his famous temper - but how hard does he work?
Also, did anyone else see his interview in the locker room shortly after the crazy injury and umpire incident? I was surprised and impressed with how Bradley represented himself. His comments presented a composed, measured and intelligent viewpoint. He represented himself in a mature and fair way. It was not at all what I would have expected.
Anyone have a youtube link to that?
by airhad on Oct 11, 2007 9:42 AM EDT 0 recs
I agree Bradley is a valuble option
by JMedwick on Oct 11, 2007 9:48 AM EDT 0 recs
I thought it was believed that Bradley
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 11, 2007 9:52 AM EDT 0 recs
i hadn't heard that
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 10:02 AM EDT
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it doesn't sound as bad as that, HC
"Milton Bradley had his knee surgery, repairing the ACL torn in the strangest manner I've ever seen as well as some associated meniscal problems. Bradley likely won't be ready for spring training, and even then will have another chronic problem to deal with on top of his leg, back, and oblique problems, as well as any attempt to rehabilitate the reputation he carries. Bradley had Tim Kremchek do the surgery since Kremchek repaired his knee back in 2005 when Bradley was dealing with a patellar tendon problem. Bradley was able to return quickly from that, and there's no reason to think that he won't be able to do the same here, once he finds a team that needs his bat."
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6765
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 10:04 AM EDT
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I originally heard it on XM from a SD beat writer
During surgery, doctors also found Bradley had torn his meniscus and fixed it, the team said.
by Hardcore Legend on
Oct 11, 2007 10:06 AM EDT
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Knees don't
by DesmetMattdNYC on
Oct 11, 2007 11:54 AM EDT
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imagine this-
2 things:
- ACL rehab takes about 6 months nowadays. Players usually don't feel "right" until 12-18 months. It is easier to return to baseball activities than football or basketball activities. I don't think I have to explain why. I would imagine that the team that signs Bradley would get him at about 75-80% speed and strength for at least the first half of next year. He tore his right ACL, which would limit his batting from the right side more than the left. His defense would also be mildly limited.
- The torn meniscus that was "repaired" was likely just cleaned up. Meniscal repairs are very rare, as the tear has to be clean so it can be sewed back together. If they actually repaired the meniscus, he cannot bear weight on his leg for 6-8 weeks, and this will delay his rehab about a month.
by silent_bob on
Oct 11, 2007 12:23 PM EDT
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good info bob
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 2:26 PM EDT
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If the Cards took this chance...
As Bob said, and as most of my anecdotal knowledge seems to indicate though, it can be the full year before the an athlete is fully back from an ACL tear.
Good to hear that with baseball activities that this is generally less though, which of course makes sense, since it's less strenuous, and most of my anecdotal info is from basketball players.
by mtalken on
Oct 11, 2007 6:33 PM EDT
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Bradley in the clubhouse....
MB was definitely provoked into his most recent blow-up (else, why would the umpire involved get a season-ending suspension?)
It might depend on the GM-manager combo... assuming TLR's return (I know, that's a big "if"!), Hal McRae could act as a mentor to Bradley. Like Milton, McRae was an oft-injured outfielder with a burning desire to win that occasionally got him in Dutch. It might be better if the Cards had another African-American player who could become Bradley's "buddy"; oh, for a guy with the attitude of a Willie McGee on the roster!
SansLa Russa, would a "rookie" manager like Jose Oquendo or Terry Pendleton be able to deal with Bradley's temper? Dunno, but it's an additional factor to think about.
Bill DeWitt needs to hire a new GM sooner rather than later; the direction of the 2008 Cardinals will follow from that decision.
by The Ol Goaler on Oct 11, 2007 9:57 AM EDT 0 recs
Eeks
I'm sure the front office will search high and low for a black player (not just any black player, mind you - but the good kind, the kind that acts like Willie McGee) to be Milton Bradley's black "buddy" if they sign him. I mean, we know now that the execs read these blogs.
"Luhnow. Get out there and sign me a black guy. Milton can't play with white people."
by baw on
Oct 11, 2007 1:42 PM EDT
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Look at what...
stlfan
by stlfan on
Oct 11, 2007 10:44 PM EDT
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Springer quotes
Russ
"I talked to them and made sure we were going to make some moves to be competitive, that we weren't going to rebuild," Springer said. "They assured me that that's not the Cardinal way. We're in it to win it. At my age, I sure didn't want to be part of a rebuilding process."
His Agent
"Mr. DeWitt said we're going to sign the players we need to sign, go after the players we need to go after, trade if trades will help. I wanted to hear that."
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 11, 2007 10:03 AM EDT 0 recs
Larry,
(also, in a somewhat serious voice: I agree that he'd be a good signing. Switch hitter, decent glove, can be had below market value. And he's one of the funniest crowd hecklers I have ever seen.)
by Alxfritz on Oct 11, 2007 10:05 AM EDT 0 recs
John Rocker for setup man!
by silent_bob on
Oct 11, 2007 12:25 PM EDT
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Carl Everett: Still availible
by Valatan on
Oct 11, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
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He's out half the season at least
by fourstick on Oct 11, 2007 10:05 AM EDT 0 recs
are you sure he's out that long?
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 10:07 AM EDT
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and since you mentioned edmonds
he's a much better bet than edmonds at this stage of their careers.
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 10:12 AM EDT
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Baseball execs reading VEB
On another note, I find it interesting that the AZ and CO rosters are littered with names that the average person had never heard of just a couple years. Of course these guys didn't just appear out of nowhere and we all know the dangers to modeling a long-term strategy after this year's hot team (you certainly wouldn't mimic the 06 Cardinals), I still feel there is a lesson in player development to be learned from dissecting these two rosters.
Personally, I wouldn't mind saving money spent on average free agents and biting the bullet for a couple years to revamp our system more in the fashion of these two contenders. A $110M dollar budget permits us to always have 2-3 carefully selected prime investments that when surrounded by AZ/CO like young farm products can make for a killer good team on a consistent basis.
by Hinkster on Oct 11, 2007 10:16 AM EDT 0 recs
If the people in the FO are reading this
NO MORE MIGUEL CAIRO!
by Hardcore Legend on
Oct 11, 2007 10:18 AM EDT
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I second that!
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 11:03 AM EDT
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Bradley
a) We need depth in CF. Jimmy Ballgame is undoubtedly going to take a few trips to the DL next season. Rick Ankiel is still Rick Ankiel ... anything can happen. Bradley is a plus defender.
b) We need help at the top of the lineup w/ the expected departure of Eckstein. Miles is not an everyday leadoff hitter and we just don't have a large enough sample size with Ryan to know what he will give us next year. Bradley would look great in the 1 or 2 holes.
c) If we got Milton, I would look at us having three players to fill two positions (CF and RF): Jimmy, Bradley, Ankiel. You stand a good chance of getting 300 games out of these three. Thus, if you are only expecting 100 games out of each player, it lowers expectations and the lineup is still strong regardless of which 2 play any given day.
d) Bradley is a true switch hitter (not big difference in production from either side of the plate). If TLR comes back, solves his obsession with the righty -- lefty match up.
e) We have a veteran presence in the Cards clubhouse that can help to moderate Milton. I'll call it the New England Patriots effects (see Randy Moss circa 2007).
f) Acquiring Bradley makes Duncan expendable in trade for a starter. Platoon Schu and whoever in left.
by jjray on Oct 11, 2007 10:26 AM EDT 0 recs
F)
by Glowsticks on
Oct 11, 2007 3:00 PM EDT
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sitting one of the three
by jjray on
Oct 11, 2007 3:05 PM EDT
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Maybe as a precursor to this analysis
by sdrone on Oct 11, 2007 10:26 AM EDT 0 recs
none
by StLHugo on
Oct 11, 2007 11:08 AM EDT
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None?
I could probably live with that situation. But man it's a lot of outfielders. heh.
by sdrone on
Oct 11, 2007 11:18 AM EDT
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Is there really a bad one year deal...
by BigJawnMize on Oct 11, 2007 10:44 AM EDT 0 recs
Thanks, Larry...
But I wanted to check and see how close Renteria came to his projections. His Win Share guesstimates from March of 2004 were 22-19-20-21 over the next four years. His actual Win Share totals were 16-14-19-18. So he's done slightly worse than I expected -- about one win per season (3 WS are equal to one win), but we might chalk up some of that to the difficulty of playing in an unwelcome environment in Boston, as well as learning a new (and tougher) league. In the NL he's been about what we expected. Who knows? We might need to size him up once again, if the rumors about him coming to St. Louis for '08 turn out to be true...
by briangunn on Oct 11, 2007 10:59 AM EDT 0 recs
brian, those win-share figures
whaddya think about mr bradley --- would you take a flyer on him, or do you figure the (figurative) price tag of having this guy in your clubhouse is too high? or maybe you thing the ACL thing lowers his upside . . . . ?
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 11:15 AM EDT
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I would take a flyer on Bradley, yes
- He's produced everywhere he's been
- He's a high-risk/high-reward player -- he could be a steal, and he could be a flameout
- However, given that the Cardinals are running from behind without much talent from within, the team needs to take risks
- A reasonable amount of risk is warranted with Bradley provided you accept upfront that (a) Bradley will be injured in the near term and probably down the line, (b) Bradley will get into some embarrassing flap that might affect his play (or the play of his teammates), and (c) those first two warnings can be mitigating depending on the manager of the team. If it's La Russa, forget it -- he and La Russa are like powder keg meets match. But if it's someone who can embrace Bradley while being firm with him (not sure who that is; is Phil Jackson available?), then sure, sign him up...
by briangunn on
Oct 11, 2007 11:38 AM EDT
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CARLOS QUENTIN
If this organization is hell bent on dealing Reyes, then wouldn't a deal with Reyes & Quentin as the centerpiece make a ton of sense?
We would control Quentin for I believe the next 5 seasons. I also think once he gets on track it would not be unreasonable to expect an OPS of .830 to .860 out of him on a regular basis.
by MrPlow on Oct 11, 2007 11:01 AM EDT 0 recs
do we know why...
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 11:05 AM EDT
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Quentin
So I don't know if they gave up on Quentin or whether he just became a victim of circumstance as sometimes happens.
by MrPlow on
Oct 11, 2007 11:12 AM EDT
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you're prob right...
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 11:31 AM EDT
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Yes!!!!!!!!!!
I;m wondering if a deal for Reyes alone would get it done. Or Reyes and a solid MR prospect. This would give an OF of:
Vs RHP:
Duncan
Edmonds/Ankiel
Ankiel/Q
Vs LHP
Duncan/Q
Ankiel
Ankiel/Q
Quentin also has terrific OB skills with pop, making him potentially the ideal #3 hitter in front of Albert. He's young (25), and the Cards will control his rights for a long time yet.
THIS IS THE GUY TO GET!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by siddfynch on
Oct 11, 2007 12:50 PM EDT
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Here's the scoop on Quentin
"I think his shoulder was a continual problem for him the entire season, although the DBacks repeatedly denied that it was still hurt him. When he was back with us in August I talked to him about it and he straight up told me it was killing him, and it almost seemed like the DBacks didn't believe that he was still hurts and that they thought he was using it as an excuse for his struggles. I think it legitimately tanked his season though.
Byrnes, CY, Upton are all pretty much locked in unless there's the odd chance the give Upton a little Triple-A time....very doubtful though. They'll probably try to deal Q for starting pitching, and if Scott Hairston is any precedent they'll ask for the world, sit on him for too long and end up getting very little in return from a patient team."
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 3:05 PM EDT
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If i were in charge...
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 3:23 PM EDT
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If Quentin has shoulder problems
Quentin, I feel, is going to suffer from Barden's fate: Good prospect who is pushed out by better ones.
I'd love to snatch up Quentin too, but I don't think we should trade pitching for an injured OF. We've got 4 of those already.
by Hardcore Legend on
Oct 11, 2007 3:35 PM EDT
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Fair point
I'd agree with you re: Reyes. If there's a new manager and pitching coach I'd hope we stick with the guy and give him a new shot.
I do wonder what it would take to get a guy like Quentin. How much value does McCormick have? Or maybe M Boggs?
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 4:32 PM EDT
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Quentin's Shoulder
Will it be completely healed up by next spring?
by MrPlow on
Oct 11, 2007 3:40 PM EDT
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Wow, timely...
"Right fielder Carlos Quentin had surgery on his left shoulder on Tuesday.
One of the club's top prospects a year ago, Quentin was penciled in as the Opening Day starter in 2007. He suffered a slight tear in the labrum in his left shoulder midway through Spring Training, forcing him to start the year on the disabled list. He never seemed to be able to recover his rhythm at the plate and struggled to a .214 mark.
The estimated recovery time for Quentin is six months."
Guess this means there's little chance he'll get dealt until after he comes back and proves to be healthy and effective. Damn.
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 5:01 PM EDT
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Wow, sweet
I can't compete with that, but I can offer this parallel overview:
- Q hurt the shoulder in spring, and was a progressively worse hitter in April, May, and June. He was pretty much shut down in late June (or so).
- He then came back in July, and hit the tar out of the ball at AAA - clearly, his shoulder was feeling better. Or, at least good enough to repeat his numbers there from 2006. he got called back up to AZ, but hurt his hamstring.
- In August, he made another comeback in AAA, and again hit well. He was recalled for Sept, and was respectable in a handful of ABs.
I really think we should go after this guy.
by siddfynch on
Oct 11, 2007 3:33 PM EDT
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Agreed...
by airhad on
Oct 11, 2007 4:34 PM EDT
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Only...
stlfan
by stlfan on
Oct 11, 2007 10:48 PM EDT
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Your hypothesis on Bradley
by ridgesee on Oct 11, 2007 11:04 AM EDT 0 recs
skip schumaker played over his head this year
the jury's out on ankiel. duncan's a better hitter, but once you adjust for fielding bradley's a better player. edmonds' ops last year was .728; bradley hasn't posted an ops that low in 6 years. you're right, maybe jed has one last .850ish year in his bat, but his odds of doing that are much lower than bradley's --- and edmonds' downside is much worse.
by lboros on
Oct 11, 2007 11:22 AM EDT
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Iboros, you present good stats
If you would go back to 1949 ( I know this is a long way back and there are a lot of others more recent that could be used to illustrate but this one has always been burned in my memory) look at the team rosters and stats of the Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees and you will say how in the hell could the Yankees have possibly beaten that Red Sox team, yet they did by one game on the last of the season. They did by character. I still like your stats though.
by ridgesee on
Oct 11, 2007 11:51 PM EDT
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you mean the Red Sox team
(just kidding)
Seriously though, looking at the stats of the two teams on baseball-reference.com and baseball-prospectus.com, it is obvious that the Red Sox had a better team, or at least "played better that year". The question is, could anyone have developed a set of mathematical tools to predict the outcome based on the 1946/7/8 stats more often that a person who watched every game of the 1946/7/8 seasons? If the Yankees had a tool like that, could they have found a better SS than Rizzuto, or maybe a pitcher better than Reynolds to be their #2? What can we learn from the player performances to help us figure out what Ludwick and Pujols and Edmonds and Bradley will do next year?
by SleepyCA on
Oct 12, 2007 12:52 AM EDT
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lol
Still, the question then becomes, "If the Red Sox had a tool that could accurately predict player performance, could they have found a better hitting 1B than Goodman, or maybe a pitcher better than Kramer to start for 18 games?"
by SleepyCA on
Oct 12, 2007 1:09 AM EDT
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Sleepy Ca, I am glad you took the time
by ridgesee on
Oct 12, 2007 3:32 PM EDT
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Hey, ridgesee
by gbrusca on
Oct 12, 2007 2:19 AM EDT
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Thank you
by ridgesee on
Oct 12, 2007 9:19 AM EDT
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Bradley
by mikedallas23 on Oct 11, 2007 11:29 AM EDT 0 recs
Exactly,
by JMedwick on
Oct 11, 2007 11:40 AM EDT
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A good portion of Bradley's value
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2007 11:49 AM EDT
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IF THEY REALLY LISTEN TO US
JUST RECEIVED MY INVOICE FOR 2008. MY SEASON TICKETS PRICE ROSE 16%.
by whatapartier on Oct 11, 2007 11:50 AM EDT 0 recs
TOLAXOR...
by _pistol_ on
Oct 11, 2007 6:00 PM EDT
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Matt Stairs and the sacking of Walk Jocketty
If you want to talk value for money, he had 7 WSAB (14 total) for $850K last year. Yes, he's going to be 40 in February, but if you give him 400 PAs against RHP he's likely to give you value for minimal cost. He's not a great fielder, but again who cares when it's a LF that you are talking about?
If the Cards are going to use Duncan as a trade chip (though I don't recommend it), a Stairs/Ludwick platoon in LF would likely be a $1 to $1.5 MM league average position.
2. I read the USS Mariner article yesterday and your thoughts are the same as mine. Four years ago there was a series of newspaper articles on what Cleveland was doing to rebuild their farm infrastructure.
That serie

