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team pitching projection: ZIPS

before we forge ahead with more ZIPS talk, some links:

so enough of all that. player projections: you know em, you love em, you can't live without em. yesterday, using the ZIPS forecasts and some common-sense assumptions about playing time, we pegged the cardinals' expected scoring output for 2007 at about 780 runs. today we'll run a similar exercise to see how the pitching staff shapes up.

before we do, let's revisit last off-season's pitching-staff forecast, based on PECOTA figures. while it wasn't quite as spot-on as the projection for the 2006 offense, it was accurate insofar as it warned, correctly, of a big increase in runs allowed. my accounting placed the bloat at 79 runs, which ended up being 50 runs low; but then, nobody foresaw the utter collapse that befell stl's pitching staff. on the contrary, most prognosticators had the cardinals remaining at or near the top of the league in era, where they'd finished in each of the previous two seasons. PECOTA at least raised a gigantic red flag vis-vis the cardinal pitchers --- and did it before a single pitch had been thrown:

IP H BB SO HR H9 BB9 SO9 | ERA WHIP RUNS
projected 1445 1462 473 959 156 9.1 2.9 6.0 | 4.08 1.339 712
actual 1430 1475 504 970 193 9.3 3.2 6.1 | 4.54 1.383 762

basically, last year's PECOTA exercise yielded an accurate forecast in every respect except one --- homers allowed, which it underestimated by 37. that alone explains the 50-run miscalculation on the bottom line.

at the end of that post, i plugged the PECOTA-derived runs-scored estimate and the PECOTA-derived runs-allowed estimate into the pythagorean won-loss formula to get a PECOTA-derived won-loss estimate of 90 wins, 72 losses --- a far more pessimistic, but ultimately more accurate, forecast than the pundit class was registering last spring. baseball prospectus' own PECOTA-generated projection was even more accurate: it put the cards at 87-75.

so much for 2006, and so much (for now) for PECOTA; let's look ahead to 2007, and look at ZIPS. we'll do that after the jump . . . .

Star-divide

projecting the pitching staff at this early date is complicated on a number of counts, beginning with the fact that the staff remains very much a work in progress. it's likely that the cardinals will acquire another starting pitcher before the season starts, either via free agency or trade. all we can do for now is go with the guys already on board. my best guess would be as follows:

rotation: carpenter, reyes, wainwright, wells, thompson
bullpen: isringhausen, springer, kinney, looper, hancock, flores, johnson

ZIPS projects wainwright and thompson as relievers in 2007, but dan szymborski (ZIPS' author) graciously provided separate projections for them as starting pitchers; did the same thing for looper, for that matter, although i'm not going to use that one. the wainwright projection is here, at comment #27; the thompson projection is here. (and looper is here, if you're curious.) many thanks to dan for the extra effort.

armed with those projections, and pro-rating all the starters for 33 starts (30 for thompson, the ostensible #5), we can construct a basic stat sheet for the 2007 staff:

GS IP H ER BB SO HR | ERA WHIP
carpenter 33 230 206  78  46 187 23 | 3.05 1.096
reyes 33 195 187  84  50 165 30 | 3.88 1.208
wainwright 33 181 191  77  58 112 24 | 3.83 1.378
wells 33 182 182 101 101 137 23 | 4.99 1.554
thompson 30 160 173  80  53  89 27 | 4.50 1.417
is'hausen  0  61  50  24  30  56  6 | 3.54 1.311
looper  0  74  75  29  23  43  5 | 3.53 1.324
springer  0  54  50  25  19  43  8 | 4.17 1.278
kinney  0  92  84  41  44  72  9 | 4.01 1.391
hancock  0  70  68  31  21  44  8 | 3.99 1.271
flores  0  47  48  23  20  39  5 | 4.40 1.447
t johnson  0  60  53  35  47  63  8 | 5.25 1.667
repl relievrs  0  35  41  20  18  25  7 | 5.14 1.686
TOTAL  162  1441  1407  648  530  1074  183 | 4.05 1.344
2006  161  1430  1475  721  504  970  193 | 4.54 1.383

tack on 0.35 unearned runs per game (the cards' average over the last three seasons), and the final tally comes to 704 runs allowed --- a 58-run improvement over 2006. now put that number into the pythagorean formula alongside the 781-run estimate for the offense, and we end up with a projected record of 89-73. that's only a starting point; we'll need to make some adjustments. but before we leave this table, a few of points of clarification:

  • the "repl relievers" line is a catch-all parcel of innings that will be thrown by rincon, cavazos, cate, falkenborg, kiesler, and/or whoever else spends a few random weeks on the big-league roster filling in for an injured pitcher. i pulled the projected stats more or less outta me bum; we can safely say that's a replacement-level line.
  • pro-rating each pitcher's games started causes some of the other values (including runs allowed and inning pitched) to end up as fractions. the rounding might lead to a few minor discrepancies on the totals line; just ignore them. for the same reason, the pitchers' individual era figures vary by a point or two from their ZIPS-projected figures; ignore that, too.
  • szymborski's supplemental "as-starter" projections for wainwright and thompson include the information that really matters --- ie, runs allowed --- but not figures for component stats like hits, walks, strikeouts, etc. those are not particularly important, so i simply made up totals to make the sheet look pretty. in wainwright's case, i based my ad hoc figures on two things: his 2005 major-league equivalent, and his 2006 ZIPS projection (which forecasts wainwright as a starting pitcher). in thompson's case, i constructed a template based largely on jeff suppan's pre-stl rate stats.
now let's start refining our premises, making them more realistic. our initial table assumes that the cardinals will only use five starting pitchers in 2007; hah. they have had some remarkably stable rotations under la russa and duncan, but 2007 isn't shaping up as one of those years. let's just say the top 5 guys miss a total of 20 starts; just a give-or-take figure. we'll hand those 20 starts to replacement-level pitchers already in the system --- narveson, kiesler, hawksworth, josh hancock, what difference does it make. we'll lump `em all into one line called "replacement 1" and assign to it replacement-level stats --- a 5.75 era and a 1.667 whip. our table now reads like so:
GS IP H ER BB SO HR | ERA WHIP
carpenter 30 209 187 71 42 170 21 | 3.06 1.096
reyes 28 166 158 71 42 140 26 | 3.85 1.208
wainwright 28 165 174 71 53 102 22 | 3.87 1.378
wells 28 154 154 85 85 116 23 | 4.97 1.554
thompson 28 155 172 77 52  86 26 | 4.47 1.417
repl starter 20 100 117 64 50  56 20 | 5.76 1.667
is'hausen  0  61  50 24 30  56  6 | 3.54 1.311
looper  0  74  75 29 23  43  5 | 3.53 1.324
springer  0  54  50 25 19  43  8 | 4.17 1.278
kinney  0  92  84 41 44  72  9 | 4.01 1.391
hancock  0  70  68 31 21  44  8 | 3.99 1.271
flores  0  47  48 23 20  39  5 | 4.40 1.447
t johnson  0  60  53 35 47  63  8 | 5.25 1.667
repl relievrs  0  35  41 20 18  25  7 | 5.14 1.686
TOTAL  162  1441  1431  667  546  1054  190 | 4.17 1.371
2006  161  1430  1475  721  504  970  193 | 4.54 1.383

the overall runs total under this set of assumptions rises to 723; the pythagorean won-loss estimate drops to 87-75. this strikes me as a more credible projection; the 20 replacement-level starts represent a reasonable counterweight to ZIPS' buoyant expectations for the young pitchers.

and suppose those expectations are too buoyant? a lot of people think they already are. so let's bloody the young pithchers' noses a bit and see where that leaves us. i'm gonna leave reyes' projection alone, for a couple of reasons. first, the odds are that at least one of these young pitchers will have a good year; it would be just as unrealistic to assume the worst about all three as it would be to assume the best-case scenario for all. reyes has proved himself capable of shutting down good-hitting teams, and ZIPS' optimistic projection for him is echoed by bill james and CHONE; the consensus is that he will have a good year. besides, he's got cool socks and a flat brim. the 3.85 era stays.

in wainwright's case, there's perhaps more justificable reason for pessimism. according to nate silver of baseball prospectus, the standard era conversion rate from relieving to starting is +25 percent; if a guy has a 2.80 era as a relief pitcher, project him to a 3.50 era as a starter. ZIPS projects adam wainwright to post a 3.45 era in relief this season; if we pad that era by 25 percent, it comes out to 4.31. it so happens that last spring PECOTA and ZIPS both projected wainwright to an era --- as a starter --- of 4.50 or thereabouts; 4.31 is right in the same ballpark, so it's got the ringa truth about it. so we'll use that figure for wainwright, rather than the sunnier 3.85 projection supplied by szymborski.

for thompson, we'll just gratuitously inflate his stats. ZIPS projects him to 3.60 as a relief pitcher; using the standard conversion rate, that becomes 4.50 as a starting pitcher, or exactly what szymborski projected (4.47). but let's agree that thompson's previous stats (the basis for the projection) have benefitted from the careful management of la russa and duncan, who shield him from adverse matchups and thus make him appear to be more effective than he really is. instead of a 25 percent inflation, let's charge thompson with twice that --- 50 percent. that pushes his expected era as a starter to 5.40.

but now let's make one final assumption: if brad thompson's era is 5.40, he's not going to stay in the rotation. they'll go out and acquire somebody in-season, be it jon lieber or kris benson or their equivalents from some other team. maybe it'll be dontrelle willis; i dunno. let's just say this mystery acquisition will be a league-average pitcher, ie with a 4.50 era or thereabouts; we'll call this guy replacement #2 and postulate that he comes aboard at around the all-star break. that would leave us with:

GS IP H ER BB SO HR | ERA WHIP
carpenter 30 209 187 71 42 170 21 | 3.06 1.096
reyes 28 166 158 71 42 140 26 | 3.85 1.208
wainwright 28 165 180 79 53 102 22 | 4.31 1.433
wells 28 154 154 85 85 116 23 | 4.97 1.554
thompson 17  90 105 54 52  86 26 | 5.40 1.544
repl start #1 17  85  99 54 43  47 17 | 5.72 1.667
repl start #2 14  80  84 40 27  46 13 | 4.50 1.389
is'hausen  0  61  50 24 30  56  6 | 3.54 1.311
looper  0  74  75 29 23  43  5 | 3.53 1.324
springer  0  54  50 25 19  43  8 | 4.17 1.278
kinney  0  92  84 41 44  72  9 | 4.01 1.391
hancock  0  70  68 31 21  44  8 | 3.99 1.271
flores  0  47  48 23 20  39  5 | 4.40 1.447
t johnson  0  60  53 35 47  63  8 | 5.25 1.667
repl relievrs  0  35  41 20 18  25  7 | 5.14 1.686
TOTAL  162  1441  1440  683  548  1051  189 | 4.26 1.379
2006  161  1430  1475  721  504  970  193 | 4.54 1.383

even under this bleak (some would say "fair" or "realistic" or "probable") set of conditions, the cardinal pitching staff would improve over last season's --- but not by much. now the runs-allowed estimate is at 739, and the projected pythagorean record is 85-77. in this telling the rotation resembles last season's: two good pitchers and a pack of bums. without question, there's a chance that things will go this way in 2007; not a very good chance, in my view, but it's clearly a possibility. if that's how it breaks, then the cardinals won't make the playoffs.

but we know it won't break exactly that way; it'll break some way that nobody, and no projection system, can anticipate. having said that, i trust the parameters we've sketched out over the last couple of days using ZIPS as our guide: the cardinals, as presently constituted, look like an 85- to 89-win team. their main areas of need appear to be the same as they've been since june 2006: in the rotation and the outfield. rotation help will surely be forthcoming, one way or the other; when and in what guise (and to what effect) remains to be seen. as for the outfield, we might as well steel ourselves for 850 at-bats from encarnacion and taguchi.

the PECOTA projections are due out next week. when they appear i'll re-run this whole exercise and report out the bottom-line estimates, but i won't bore you with all the chapter-and-verse exposition. likewise, if the cardinals make a roster move that alters their projection by a game or more in the standings, i'll report that out too.

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Not too shabby.
I was already happy that we wouldnt be on the hook for Lilly/Meche/Supp/Marquis/etc for the next 3 to 5 years. This just sweetens the deal.

(if it actually happens.)

(which it probably won't.)

On with the youth movement!

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2007 9:44 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Amen to that...
I was really getting tired of hearing that Tony and Dunc don't trust the young guys even if it was true. Last year proved they were going to go with whomever was playing the best, and I'm praying that philosophy sticks around.

Give the young guys a chance, save the money for midseason, and let 'em play. It's not like we relocated to the AL East and have a responsibilty to overspend for every position.

How bout this for a never-gonna-happen, crazy thought? A-Rod has another good, not great year, opts out of his contract, decides he just wants to win and signs for a huge 'best organization' discount to play SS for the Cards.

I have way too much time on my hands.

Pujols just did WHAT...

by gforce on Jan 9, 2007 9:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Your A-Rod scenerio
Too much time with the PS2 probably, too.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2007 10:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm.
Never touched the thing. I'm strictly a Nintendo man.

LB, great job both days as usual on the projections. All this does is make me want the season to start already.

I'm actually going to be doing some fantasy baseball this year -- anyone have some good ideas?

Pujols just did WHAT...

by gforce on Jan 9, 2007 10:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard
that Pujols kid might be for real.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2007 10:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
Thanks for that but I was really getting at WHERE to play fantasy baseball. I've done yahoo and sandbox in the past, but since I know i'm going to miss the whole season -- I'm looking for something new.
Pujols just did WHAT...

by gforce on Jan 9, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CBS Sportsline
is the gold standard, IMO.  

by silent_bob on Jan 9, 2007 11:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate it
Going to have to check it out, thanks.
Pujols just did WHAT...

by gforce on Jan 9, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, whole-heartedly.
My league switched from Sandbox to Yahoo to CBS. We've been on cbs for the last 3 years and would never go back. What they offer is leaps and bounds beyond anything we ever had at Sandbox or Yahoo.

by airhad on Jan 9, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Question
What kind of categories does CBS have, specifically pitching categories? We have an extra offensive category in our league and we need a decent pitching category to offset that. Yahoo's choices aren't good. Do they have quality starts by any chance?

by themang on Jan 9, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Game day ritual
I tried out this fantasy format last year and loved it.  However, it is a keeper league as you actually offer contracts to your players at three year maximum lengths with a budget of 110 million.  It's fairly low impact as rosters are set per week with alternates.  The free agent blitz period beats the hell out of any draft.
All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up imbittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Jan 9, 2007 7:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jerome Williams
I've been hearing good things.

by plh903 on Jan 9, 2007 10:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Offense Projections, Overall projections
LB:

Sorry to be off topic, but if I understood your overall team projections yesterday, the Cardinals would have an OPS of .757.  By my calculations, this is exactly leaue average (for 2006).  How is everybody projecting out a strong offense for the cardinals.

As for your overall assement of an 85 win team, I think you are dead-on.  Right now the Cardinals are only an above average team.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 9:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

yesterday's projection doesn't cast them
as a particularly strong offense. it projects them to score the same # of runs they did last year, when they ranked 6th out of 16 nl teams --- ie, at the top of the middle-of-pack class.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks and
as always, nice work!

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

League Average OPS
I would guess, without looking at the numbers, that the cardinals projected OPS is OBP heavy, and would make it more valuable.  Not making outs is better than not making singles?

by Jonathan23 on Jan 9, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I believ you are correct.
Still it is only league average, so its not like there will be a huge bump.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well done
Although, I think it's too early in the morning for comments like these:

as for the outfield, we might as well steel ourselves for 850 at-bats from encarnacion and taguchi.

Albeit with some glaring issues, it's comforting to know that even somewhat pessimistically it's hard to beat this team down to .500, even in the hypothetical.

This morning I haven't heard much about how Florida backed in, and that the Buckeyes didn't show up in the Championship. (kidding, kidding)  

by plh903 on Jan 9, 2007 9:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Managerial wins
FWIW, a study by Jaffe at BTF found TLR has averaged 2 wins better than his pythag for the last 7 years and over 3 per season for his entire managerial resume.  

Piniella has been barely better than average over his career, but has done very well the last seven.  However, they stated his recent stats are pretty skewed by the Mariners overachieving by 29 games in 2001.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 10:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Do you have the link for this
That sounds pretty interesting, Ray. If you don't have it saved, don't worry about it, I'm sure I can search for it just as easily.

by plh903 on Jan 9, 2007 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here you go...
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/evaluating_managers_part_2_of_2

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/evaluating_managers_part_3/

These are 2 & 3 of a 3 part deal.  Part two is basically making some adjustments on part one, so I didn't link it...but the links are there.  Pretty interesting stuff, really.

In part 2, it breaks down how they've managed hitters and pitchers and then totaled it.  That's how i derived the historical wins.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.
Dusty Baker completely swaps places (from the bottom to near the top) from the last eval of this type I read.

The last one was for one of his years as Cubs manager, and this one is for several years.

by sdrone on Jan 9, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fungoes pitching analysis is up.
This is like Christmas.   I am bookmarking these entries.   Thanks Larry (and Dan Szymborski and Pip!).

Pip works with a couple scenarios that include Mulder/Weaver.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 10:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i agree with Fungoes up to a point
but i have one major problem with those scenarios: they don't add up to 162 starts. they range from 120 to 145 or so starts, which skews the bottom-line. because those missing starts will have to come from somewhere --- specifically, from the back end of the rotation, dragging down the overall ERA. the projection already assigns carpenter 30 starts and 210 innings; he's not going to throw many more than that. likewise, reyes and wainwright are close to maxed out in the Fungoes tabulations. so the missing starts will have to come from kip wells (who is only assigned 22 starts / 121 innings) and lesser players --- the starts/innings i assigned to the generic replacement-level starter.

another way to look at it: the projected rotation innings in the Fungoes scenarios range from 842 to 906. but the average NL rotation last year threw 940 innings or so; the cardinal rotation threw 941. in 2005, the st louis rotation threw 1050 innings; in 2004, it threw 996. so those projections are basically eliding 50 to 150 innings from the worst pitcher(s), making the rotation appear to be better than it really is.

i agree with Fungoes' basic argument, which is that the cards' rotation problems have been overstated. they'll probably pitch better than many people think. but i wouldn't agree with the conclusion that "even in the worst-case scenario . . . the starting rotation's composite ERA may actually be among the best in the league." in my opinion, under the worst-case scenario the rotation will be about average. it would take a best-case scenario to get them into the top of the league.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ya
I thought your's was much more in depth.  The bullpen wasn't evaluated at all...at least not yet.

Just wanted to link it because I thought the 'what-if' scenarios were cool and little different take on the current discussion (adding combinations of Weaver/Mulder).

Also thought the league offense comparisons were cool yesterday.

Almost wondered if you or Plh or someone else from here was posting both places cause for the most part, the two spots are on the same page thought wise...using the lineup tool, etc.

Then again, ZiPS is a big day to us saberheads.

I know there are several of us that post both places, anyway.

As I mentioned, I'm in off-season heaven today.  Thanks again!

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, i'm not pip
and neither is plh, as far as i can tell. but pip and i are definitely thinking along the same lines --- trying to answer the same questions, and using ZIPS as a guide. i agree, the inclusion of weaver / mulder scenarios was a good idea. what i found interesting is how little those two pitchers helped the overall rotation; weaver might yield a 10- to 20-run bump, or 1 to 2 wins, and mulder's projection is so bad that he represents no help at all.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope
but I read both and what kept coming to mind was how splits could affect those final numbers. Using them straight like that is probably pretty disingenuous and perhaps not very illustrative, but I believe that the lineup will hurt right-handers next year as usual, and there may be ~30 games that the lineup looks entirely different by design (not just because the unpredictable injuries etc, are probably inevitable). It's going to take some outside the box thinking, some pleasant surprise from Memphis, or a nice acquisition for it to be impressive against lefties on the other hand.

It makes me think that matchups ^ expected runs totals, while injuries/replacement level at-bats bring things back down to earth. The larger the sample size the less these things need to be looked at whatsoever, but a bat like Craig Wilson or someone performing at a higher level for 42 games has to be noteworthy, same goes for maybe JRod on the flipside, although we know that won't happen.

Perhaps it just washes out to something right around predictable levels. For example: how did Larry peg the runs total last year given the impossible-to-predict circus that was the lineup at times? Granted, it's one year so there is some luck involved, but I think it raises an interesting question. I'm also not even really sure what I'm getting at here.

Anyway, thanks for those links, good articles.

by plh903 on Jan 9, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i just got lucky
last year to get a near-bullseye. i heard a golfer tell an interviewer once: if you hit your 5-iron anywhere within 3 feet of the cup, that's skill. if you put it into the hole, that's luck.

i'm just trying to put it within 3 feet of the hole --- say, +/- 15 runs. if the cards were to score 790 runs this year instead of the 780 i am guesstimating, or if they scored 768 or whatever, i'd still consider that to be a successful projection.

as to how the projection can be close even though totally unforeseen events (injuries, roster moves, etc) intervene, i think it's largely a matter of luck balancing out. edmonds was much worse than projected in 2006, but duncan came out of nowhere and picked up the slack. encarnacion was a downgrade in rightfield, but pujols had a better year. usually it all comes out in the wash.

or it doesn't, in which case your projection looks stupid.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff LB
Really good analysis as usual. We'd expect nothing less from your posts. See, now you have gone and spoiled your loyal readers.

I have to admit, (even before the wonderful work that you and others have back magnificently done)
the 07 team in it's current makeup is only slightly above average and not a dominating team even within the central.I was thinking 85 to 87 wins all along from this group. Maybe getting lucky here and there and topping out at 90 wins.

I'll happily take the projected win total and hope that an upgrade or two will find it's way onto the team by April. Still mildly shell shocked that Walt has not upgraded more than he has to the upcoming season, but certainly willing to give him the benefit of doubt. Of course, we'll all agree that 83 wins and a big fat ring is worth more than a 105 win juggernaut and squat.

Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jan 9, 2007 11:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

So
Right now we are looking at 85-90 wins, BUT we still have 10-15 million in our pocket to spend. Spending that money wisely should be able to add another 4 wins or so. Once again, I vote for Craig Wilson (trading preferably Enc, but Jrod if necessary since Tony won't use him) and then upgrading whatever part of the roster is struggling at midseason.

by mikedallas23 on Jan 9, 2007 11:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The problem with J-Rod is his glove
I really wish we'd taken a flyer on Jason Werth.  It would be a gamble, but only a cheap one.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't get me started...
if Randy Johnson lived up to ZIPS projection, or even underperformed a bit, he would provide 3-4 wins above bench, and he'd likely be replacing a bench-type player in either Wells or Thompson/Looper.

He cost the Diamondbacks $14mm this year and $10mm next, two C+ Hawksworth-type so-so prospects, a journeyman middle reliever, and a no hit good glove C+ double A shortstop.

They say he'd strangle the budget next year... Let's think about this. Next year Izzy's contract of about $8 million expires, so if Johnson's contract replaces Izzy's as the dead money on the books the Cards would be in about the same position as they are now. Are the Cardinals currently hamstrung by Izzy's bad contract? No, they have $15 million lying around with no one to spend it on!

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but randy had a no-trade
and he wasn't going to come to st louis. according to reports, he himself proposed arizona as a destination --- only natural, since that's where he lives.

as much as trading for johnson would have made sense, i don't think the option was available to the cardinals.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're probably right...
I'm just picking fights with all the anti-Randy people... I'll stop now.
Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2007 1:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lord, I hope so...
We better spend some money to improve this team if these projections are as accurate as I think they could be with this team at its present state.  If this is truly an 85-win team, we are going to have a frustrating season in 2007.  The Cards won 83 games last year with 3 long losing streaks and a horrible second half.

 Remember how hot this team was in April/May/June of last year?  And how bad it was in August/September?  I can't imagine the Cards going through a streaky season like that again.  

If this is truly a slightly above-average team by the numbers, it is more likely that we will see some consistently mediocre baseball in '07.  It could be painful to watch.

by silent_bob on Jan 9, 2007 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The bad news...
The NL Central will still be laughed at, made fun of, and called the weakest league in baseball.

The good news...

We'll still be on top of it...and anything can happen in a short-series of games like the playoffs!

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I must admit...
I'm somewhat of a closet fan of the Brewers.  I post a lot on their message boards and a cpl of their blogs.  My brother was 6 in 1982...just old enough to be obnoxious.  He decided to root for the Brewers in the Series because the rest of the family was Cardinal fans.  Ever since then, he's claimed them as his favorite.  He's also a saberhead and a baseball freak.  So, what I'm trying to say, is I follow them pretty close and have a healthy respect for them.

I think they will have an exceptional staff this year.  I also think Hall will continue to be used improperly, Yost will continue to platoon the wrong way, whipping-boy/under-appreciated Jenkins will be traded for a bag of balls, and the bullpen will continue to struggle (except for Cordero).  I think they will be much closer...but not on top.

They are my wildcard prediction.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is I just don't see the Cardinals being
much above average.  I agree with LB's projections of 85 wins.  If the Brewers can win 87 games I think the division is theirs.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NL Central
The "worst" division in baseball has produced the last 3 World Series teams from the NL with one winner. It also has produced the team with the best record in baseball 2 of the last 3 years. (Cards in 04 and 05) It has also produced 5 of the 6 NLCS teams during the past 3 years. No other division in baseball even comes close to that...So, the argument should be that the NL Central is the BEST division in baseball over the last 3 years. And it did all of this without the East Coast ridiculous payrolls.

Don't listen to the East-Coast biased media.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 9, 2007 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bummed out
Not to be one of those types, but its a little  depressing to have a team flush with WS/Urinal revenue (flush, har har), and have a roster with Carpenter/Pujols, yet only project to 85 wins.  I'm not saying we can't win with that, but were a major injury away from being a sub .500 team?  
Seems like a bad position for a team of our resources to be in.  

by Jonathan23 on Jan 9, 2007 1:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The bright side
At least on a day like today...discussing ZiPS is a whole lot better than discussing the dark cloud of the Hall of Fame voting.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 9, 2007 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the question is
where do you spend it. not very many decent players have signed for a reasonable amount of money. it would have been nice to get soriano, but not for that dollar amount. same with zito.

if they had thrown $55m at jason schmidt, maybe they could have landed him ---- and that might have been worth it. but it still would have been nearly a 20 percent overbid, and not without risk. even then, it's not guaranteed he would have come to st louis; he wanted to stay on the west coast and might have taken less money to go to the dodgers, as randy wolf did (and as adam kennedy did to come to st louis).

they're in a box this off-season, and i just don't think they can spend their way out of it.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two words
Player Development.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball?
I understand the concept (to which the birdos try to adhere ) about paying so much per marginal win, but isn't there only one marginal win in the regular season that is worth anything?  What's that one win worth to us fans?  Everything, really.  Whats it worth to the owners?  Millions (maybe "tens of", with gate, advertising, merchandise sales, etc.).  

The cardinals are a good team, and probably tops in their division, but if we can see they're on the cusp, can't ownership?  Aren't the few millions of annual dollars overpaid to guys like Meche, Lilly, Schmidt, Batista or Suppan worth it if it purchases you that one marginal win?  Obviously we can't know which win is that "one", but the projections suggest we'll probably be in the market for it.  

by Jonathan23 on Jan 9, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two thoughts
  1. The idea of that margin win to get a club over the top is exactly why teams overpay for guys like Soriano or Lee.  That might work if you sign a guy for a one or two year deal, but almost everyone is signing guys to long term contracts destined to become albatroses.
  2. As you said, one never knows which win is going to be a marginal win.  Right now I could see the Cardinals from anywhere between 80 and 90 wins.  Five more wins from an overpriced free agent doesn't help us if we are at 80 wins right now.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if you keep overspending
without making the team better, it'll catch up to you sooner or later. at some point you'll have so much money tied up in nonproductive players that you won't have enough dollars left over to spend on a real difference-maker.

more to the point ---- expensive players aren't always better than cheap ones. it's often the other way around --- look no further than the haren/mulder trade for a case in point. or, for a happier example, look at the rookie pitchers (wainwright and kinney) who supplanted braden looper as the cards' setup men / izzy insurance last year.

if an expensive but mediocre player denies an opportunity to a cheaper but potentially better player, that often doesn't help the organization.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Points
And how about that Marlin's rotation that was among the best in the league with all rookies. It certainly outpitched the Mets' expensive rotation and without much defensive help. If the Marlins had more offense, they would have made the playoffs.

Just because it costs more, doesn't make it better. I want the birdos to add another starter or 2, but most of those middle-of-the-road guys that signed for 10MM per year are no better than Kip Wells or probably Narveson or Hawksworth.

I am more disappointed on missing out on Jose Cruz Jr. and the other few bargains out there. The best available guys for the Cards' needs were probably Schmidt and Wolf. Both received offers as good as what the Dodgers gave, but these guys wanted to play in LA. (And I applaud them for turning down a little more money to play where they want.) This scenario almost netted us Burnett last year and may get us Buerle next year. (If we want him.)

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 9, 2007 6:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
But it's also worth it to them to be in a position to get there in '08-'09-'10.  Locking up a mediocre pitcher for 4 years at 10-11 per might put you in position do that next year, but might severely hamper you the next 3.  

If we get one of those 3rd tier pitchers in Weaver, Ohka etc. fine, they will provide some sort of improvement over Thompson (dream: Hawksworth by mid-June?) but as of now we are in a financial position to take on a contract dump mid-season that's going to be better and probably even cheaper than anyone that was available this off-season...with more information about where the team stands; all while leaving up more flexibility in next off-season and those thereafter.  So long as a #5 is cheap, whatever, but I'll trade Jeff Suppan at 42/4, Lilly at 55/5, Lilly 4/45, Batista's 25/3 for all that.  Schmidt wasn't really an option.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 9, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

...con't
But wouldn't you take on any of the free agent contracts made this off season if it meant the difference between making the playoffs and not?  Obviously its unfair to assume that one player would get us in the playoffs, or that we wouldn't get into the playoffs without said one player, but which contracts would you NOT assume, even if it meant the cardinals not making the playoffs?  I would only say Barry Zito, Juan Pierre, Gary Matthews.  Doesn't paying 4 million a marginal win this year (from Jeff Suppan, or Miguel Batista) 5MM a marginal win the next two/three years make sense knowing how likely it is that every marginal win we pick up this offseason could be "that one marginal win"?

I'm really not advocating spending money on anyone just because we have it, and I concur that Weaver and Mulder aren't necessarily going to be better than your brad thompsons of the world this year (and they definitely won't
be better in a few years).  I just don't see how blowing 4-8MM annual marginal dollars or a few extra years on guys like Suppan and Batista then not needing their wins/eating a portion of their later years [in their defense, they're durable] is a bigger risk than missing out on the playoffs by a few games and, for the fans, essentially blowing the entire 2007 payroll (for management, merely blowing that shiny playoff penny).  Where the division stands now, the dollars we had left at the beginning of the offseason seemed very leveraged in the sense of what they could return, i.e. buying that one marginal win.  

by Jonathan23 on Jan 9, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
its a bit more complicated than that. What if that contract gets us into the playoffs this year, but ends up screwing us and keeping us out for the 3 following years? Is it worth it then? Obviously the best bet is to aim for the playoffs now and 2, 3, 4 years from now, but I think most people would agree that none of those players that have been mentioned seem to possess that kind of ability.

by Birds on the Matt on Jan 9, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well said spazattak
you're exactly right. we have to balance the chances of suppan getting stl into the playoffs in 2007 vs the chances of him keeping stl out of the playoffs in subsequent years.

the only contract i really wish the cardinals had signed is the one that schmidt signed with the dodgers --- and jocketty offered him the same amount, but he didn't want to leave the west coast. the yankees' deal on pettitte is also a sweet one; the cards offered a much better deal (3 years as opposed to 1), but he flat-out refused to sign with st louis.

the woody williams deal looks pretty good, and the padilla deal is reasonable --- but there, too, the cardinals allegedly made a competitive offer, but padilla chose the rangers. randy wolf and greg maddux never had any interest in the cardinals. the miguel batista and ted lilly contracts are borderline calls; i wouldn't have wanted the cards to bid higher to reel those guys in.

the deals for marquis, suppan, meche, and eaton look like bad ones, and i'm glad the cards aren't holding those contracts. even if they miss the playoffs in 2007, i think they're better off in the long run having avoided those bad deals.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re: Lilly
#1.  He's a flyball pitcher and we all know how well that goes over with LaDuncan.  Gives up a lot of homeruns.  (Have fun with that wind Teddy boy)

#2. He walks 4 per 9.  Strike throwing is big with LaDuncan, case in point Anthony Reyes in the bigs (A3P whenever I tracked it outside of Chicago was usually bad)

#3.  He's not durable at all.

All that said, I would say that he probably will be  valuable enough in 2007 to be worth his 10 mil per contract, but it again boils down to is he worth it in the 3 subsequent years.  In my eyes it's a definitive no given that the one thing he does well (k's) is a skill that typically diminishes with age.  At 35 is he still going to be able to put up a >7 k/9?  I would put my money on no which means he won't be a good pitcher either.  I look forward to the Cubs being on the hook for 12 mil the last two years of that.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 9, 2007 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bad contracts
I agree with your assessment of the contracts, but the "bad" and "good" = value provided/($$$ x years) may apply in a vaccuum, but I think the cardinals fall outside the realm.  

The '07 team, from our projections, is probably +- 3 wins within the next best team in the central division.  The team also has 10-15m payroll available if it "makes sense".  Doesn't purchasing 2.5 marginal wins through "overpaying" for Miguel Batista make more "sense" than adhering to the obsolete mantra of $2M/marginal win?  For arguments sake, Batista doesn't pitch an inning in 2008 and 2009, we eat 15 m (or, for arguments sake, what could shrewdly purchase 3 marginal wins a year in 08 and 09).  Would 2.5 this year not be worth more than those wins deferred?  Maybe we win '08 by ten games, and maybe we lose to the pirates in '09 by ten games.  The point being, we'll never be able to predict the central division to be as close as we can this year.  I just don't envision a time in the future where marginal wins there are worth more than wins today.  Its the time value of money, er, wins...  

by Jonathan23 on Jan 9, 2007 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's a fair point
a win this year might be worth more than a win in 2008 or 09. but it's still a balancing act. even if we discount deferred wins (much as we discount deferred money), 2.5 current-year wins are not worth more than any number of future wins. at some point, the cost in future wins becomes too high to make the present-day gain worthwhile.

put another way: an organization can't always place short-term marginal gain ahead of longer-range objectives. that's a formula for disaster over the long term.

i also think you're still not allowing for present-year opportunity cost. committing to a known but limited quantity in the short term last year --- sidney ponson --- cost the cardinals 30 starts from adam wainwright; absent ponson's presence, wainwright wins that job out of spring training and probably produces better results, both in the short term (ie, in 2006) and over the long term.

the cards have shown this off-season they're willing to place short-term-oriented bets on potential difference-makers such as pettitte and schmidt. but they're not willing to make the same bets on guys whose present-year marginal value might very well be zero. that seems like a reasonable approach.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Net Value
Tomorrows wins won't really be discounted in today's dollars, because tomorrow's wins are paid with tomorrows dollars.  Its more a matter of valuing marginal wins (today's and tomorrow's), given your teams current situations.  

Your average team in contention as a baseline might be $3m/MW.  For a team like the royals, their first 15-20 marginal wins added are vitually worthless.  (If they play better, they may get an increase in attendance, but no cardinal application...)

If Batista's contract goes $9, $8, $8, respectively, and he's worth 3, 2 and 1.5 wins marginal wins, respectively (the opportunity cost is pretty low.  Batista wouldn't be replacing Wainwright, rather he'd be replacing Looper/Thompson/Narveson).  The value of a free agent marginal win for the cardinals in any given year ('08 and '09) is 3m/year:

Even PV ('06, '07, '08) = ($X * 3 - 9m)+($3m/w * 2 - $8m)+($3m/w x $1.5m)

Then x = 4.75m, or this year's marginal wins have to be worth 4.75m to justify the set back in '08 and '09.  Another perspective, would you give up 5 wins over '08 and '09 for three wins in '07?  Given the card's situation, I think thats a pretty easy decision.  You could structure the contract to give up 14m in on this year's payroll (and break even the following years), wouldn't you, if it meant the cardinals got a 3 game lead on top of the current roster (but not make any further additions)?  I know it doesn't work that way, but its theoretically parallel.  I guess you could lower Batista's projections, but you could also suggest a free agent pitcher's marginal wins cost much more than 3m per win for free agent pitchers in '08-'09.  

From another perspective, this shows you how truly bad the Mulder trade was.  We were essentially trading loads of marginal wins in 2008-2011 for a few marginal wins in 2005 (while the division was sewn up when pitchers reported, and marginal wins were essentially worthless).  

Or, a look at the Gil Meche Deal

Value of a marginal win provided (wins 63-67 [i.e. meche is worth 5 wins, much better than his zips]) = $.5m/win 07-08
$1.0/win 09-10
$3.0/win (The royals are in contention that year)

$11m/year

pv = ($.5*5w-11M)+($.5*5w-11M)+($1*5w-11M)+($1*5w-11M)+($3*5w-11M) = -$25m (!!)

The value of known marginal wins should dictate the price you pay for a free agent, rather than adhering to a flat rate out of principle.    

by Jonathan23 on Jan 9, 2007 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we're not talking
about players who project to be worth 3 marginal wins in 2007. we're talking about guys who stand a good chance of being worth 0 marginal wins this year. the projection systems show miguel batista and jeff weaver as having little, if any, marginal value over brad thompson. you might disagree with those projections ---- but that's a difference of opinion over individual player value, rather than a difference over philosophy.

as to this question --- "would you give up 5 wins in 08/09 for 3 wins in 2007?" --- no, i wouldn't. why? for all we know, 2 or 3 marginal wins will prove more decisive (ie, more crucial to making the playoffs) in 08/09 than they will in 07. it's not written in stone that the cardinals will contend this year, nor that the race will be close if they do contend. in 2 of the last 3 years, the cardinals got results directly opposite to the preseason expectations of them --- in 2004, when they far outperformed expectations; and last year, when they far underperformed. it looks like an 85-win team right now, but by may 1st it might look far different.

i just don't buy the premise that marginal wins are definitely worth more this year than they will be 2 years or 3 years from now.

by lboros on Jan 10, 2007 10:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

to complete this thought
the cardinals' task is to find marginal wins for 2007 without costing themselves marginal wins in 08 and 09. that's the way i hope they approach it.

by lboros on Jan 10, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

just a thought...
if wainwright makes the rotation in 2006 out of spring training, who replaces izzy in the postseason?

also, would we have picked up weaver?

i am not saying this to be a bastard, just curious

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jan 10, 2007 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The best 2 words on the blog
Player development. 15,000,000 dollars would get you the best scouts and minor league instructors on the planet. (And probably a couple of baseball academies in some foreign lands as well) The Cardinals farm system has been ranked among the worst for the last 15 years or so. It still has produced some players, but this area will be more vital in the next 5 years or so than ever before due to the horrendous inflation over mediocre free agents.

Also...throw in the best team doctors and surgeons since pitchers are so fragile these days and the Cards have their share of injuries.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 9, 2007 7:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rankings
mean jack snot sometimes.  Look at college football to prove my point.  Boise State ended up #5 in the final polls.  

The Cards' minor league system developed (or played a significant role in the development of) some pretty good players that are now in "the show":

Pujols
Kennedy
Molina
Duncan
J-Rod
Wainwright
Reyes
Looper
Johnson
Kinney
Thompson

Not to mention players traded away, such as Calero, Haren, Dmitri Young, Polanco, etc.  

Sure, the system has been pretty weak in developing pitching, but I'm not sure we'd be saying that if Rick Ankiel didn't self-destruct.  It's a big if, but IF Ankiel was ok mentally, we'd potentially have 3 big-time SP's that were developed in-house.

by silent_bob on Jan 10, 2007 10:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hal of Fame Voting
is anounced in 10 minutes or so.  Given recent voting trends, its a safe bet that only Gywnn and Ripken make it.  Even though by most every analysis Blyleven should be there too.

by Zubin on Jan 9, 2007 2:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

No surprises in Yahoo Sports headline
It says Gwynn and Ripken are in, McGwire not. No story with voting numbers posted yet, though.

by BTown Birds fan on Jan 9, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

SP depth
I've been filtering thru the free-agent market  trying to figure out how the Cards could add a few more SP's.  There's no point in spending much.  There's not much out there, but it seems like a few selective spring training invites and a maybe a $2-4 million deal on a number 5 starter woudn't be out of line.  
I'd like to see the Cards throw a litte more at the wall - just to see what sticks. Don't really mind having Thompson or Narvs or Looper as a #5 - as long he earns it... competition is good thing, right?

Brian Lawrence - 30, has potential
Tony Armas Jr - 28 yrs old
Aaron Sele - 36 yrs old - if used properly, could be durable
Jerome Williams - only 24, I think the Cubs   misused him.  Worth a a 1-yr deal.

Outside the box:
Mike Hampton - what happened to him?  i see he made $15 last yr the Braves.
Kirk Rueter - I know he retired, but he's a St Louisan.  Entice him in for one last shot.

by _pistol_ on Jan 9, 2007 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes
He is expected to be back in the Atlanta rotation this year.  If he's healthy a rotation that includes Smoltz/Hudson/Hampton/James looks pretty stout.

by wildman on Jan 9, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and a significant portion
of that contract is still begin paid by the rockies.

by sdesserman on Jan 10, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meh
Lawrence - Has had a few good years but labrum tears are scary, let alone when they are coupled with rotator cuff tears.  500k at the most

Armas Jr - Never really recovered from his torn labrum and doesn't look like he will.

Aaron Sele - I don't know if he's much of an improvement over a Narveson/Thompson.

Williams - I'll say it even again, Williams brings the ex-Cub factor above 0.  Can't risk it.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 9, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't wait
To hear the BS sports writers come up with to justify Bonds' selection when it happens. He certainly is a more complete player than McGwire was, but has the same amount of steroid suspicion. McGwire was one of the greats from his 49-homer rookie season on. Kudos to Ripken and Gwynn, but Blyleven and Jim Rice aren't good enough? As long as writers determine the fate of baseball players there will never be justice because there aren't informed, objective journalists alive anymore. The writers have all gone gonzo without Hunter Thompson's charisma. Write the stories, stop making YOURSELVES the stories.  
A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Jan 9, 2007 3:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

John Thomson
Signed by the Blue Jays for $500,000 plus incentives:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Obviously a low-cost gamble.  I didn't know about the labrum tear - maybe that's what kept the Cardinals away from him.  I would have liked to see Walt give him a shot at our rotation for that kind of contract.  The search for that fifth starter continues.....at least we have the money to spend if/when the right guy becomes available.

by wildman on Jan 9, 2007 3:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

he obviously is a serious injury risk
if he signed for that low of a guarantee.

that said, it seems like the type of gamble the cardinals often like to take. it's what they did with carpenter; and they're contemplating taking a similar gamble mulder, for a lot more money.

thomson seems like a missed opportunity to me.

by lboros on Jan 9, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This bodes well
for the market, which bodes well for the Birds I think. Thompson would have been a fine gamble for $500K, but grabbing up too many of those scares me that this team won't give the kids a shot.

Jocketty has always been good about exploiting the market, obviously this years version may be to essentially stand pat.

This is only a thought, but it crosses my mind that if Jocketty is going to exploit the market in this way that if he gives Tony and Dave 3 guys like Thompson, that we may never get to find out how Brad, Adam and Anthony do. Maybe he is saving TLR from himself, given Tony's (ahem) track record with preferring elder starters. Once again, just a thought that crossed my mind, I don't even necessarily believe that's the case.

Back to my original thought though, this and the Pineiro signing have brought things back to earth somewhat. If Bavasi and Hicks can just keep it calm for the rest of this offseason, then Weaver may be had for something reasonable. I'm not really sure what that is exactly, but it's something much more absorbable like 2/14 and less like "Matt Morris money." Really, who knows, but this could be a very good thing, John Thompson was one of the (sadly) better bets left on the market I think.

by plh903 on Jan 9, 2007 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Boras
I don't really see Boras settling for 2/14 for Weaver, but as big a Weaver basher I've been, a 2 year deal would definitely be a good thing.  2/18 would probably even be do-able.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 9, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if we
were going to offer him $9M+/per, I have to think we would have offered him arbitration.  The fact that we didn't do that makes me think he either won't be coming back, or if he does, at a greatly reduced salary.

Although the large part salary inflation didn't really happen until after the arb deadline, so who knows.  I bet maddux is kicking himself for taking 1Y/10M early on...

"...in winter, when there's no baseball... I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Weaver
is running out of options.  Today's signing of Thomson takes the Jays out of the running I think.  The Mets have already said that they're probably out of it.  Nothing has indicated that the Pirates or Rangers are interested.  So is it the Cards and the Mariners?  And I doubt the Mariners would give up much for him.  I really thought Weaver would sign w/ the Cards for about 3 and 27.  Now I'm starting to think it will be a 2 year deal or maybe 2 and an option.

If Boras and Weaver decide to consider a 1 year contract again, it may open up for him but it seems to me that the Cards are his best option and his leverage is about gone!

by chuckb on Jan 9, 2007 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Weren't
the Cardinals supposed to be 3rd in the division in 04? HOw did that rotation stack up against this one. Futhermore what was the projection for that 04 team? Has it really took that much of a nosedive? From 105 W's to 87ish? That's interesting. Now I'm no saber-whatnot but shouldn't there be a stat or whatever to look at this from a schedule standpoint. Say we play 75% of our games with a superior team ERA/BA/ZIPS/whatever then can't we then "fine-tune" it that in those 123 games why didn't we win? I'm just saying that there should be some sort of STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE stat.
Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on Jan 9, 2007 6:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You can attribute that success
to having 5 starters combine for 154 starts, off the top of my head the '06 Tigers, '01(?) M's, '05 ChiSox, as great pitching teams with solid staffs didn't accomplish this I don't think. MattyMo had an  89 ERA+ the rest of the staff was either at 100 (Suppan, Woody) or significantly over (Carp, Marquis). Carp was real good, but none of those were necessarily dominant, I guess. It just speaks to having 5 guys that perform for the length of the season, I don't know how rare that is in the last decade or so, but I'll just say it's got to be extremely rare.

Also, having Jimmy and Scotty put up two of history's best offensive years ever while winning gold gloves at 3B and CF didn't hurt things. Albert was obviously Albert that year as well. Three OPS+ of 160? Disgusting.

by plh903 on Jan 9, 2007 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The 2004 ZiPS Projection
for the Cardinals was incredible. I mean, freaking incredible. Szymborski created a Diamond Mind disk for all of baseball, and I remember that February projecting the 2004 season over and over again, and the Cardinals kept winning 100 games, sometimes 110 games. Keeping in mind what the conventional wisdom was that February, ZiPS looked like the Oracle at Delphi.

by Rob H on Jan 9, 2007 8:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This surely had been posted before...
But I'd rather be facing a season where we are projected to be just above-average and wait for the Cards to be awesome than having a pre-season prediction of glory and watching the Cards struggle! Over-achievers unite! Better to keep the hopes reasonable and then be pleasantly surprised than to get the hopes up too high and (hopefully not) watch them fall, IMHO.

by Big Rev on Jan 9, 2007 6:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

We need Offsense not Pitching
From the look of this we have a decent 1-4 and a good enough #5.  What we really need to fix is our barely average offense.  Basically that means filling the OPS sinkhole in RF.  If we are going to carry 3 defensive, low offense IF types (C,SS,2B) then we need production from the OF

by DriverZn on Jan 9, 2007 6:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes
I agree. most of the off season I have been saying that the pitching will work itself out. The problem is the outfield. Both offensively and defensively.

by nybirdfan on Jan 9, 2007 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
To be fair I think we need BOTH Offense AND Pitching.  No matter how "mediocre" our team OPS, we still need a 5th starter, especially since our "reclamation project" #4 SP (Wells) is far from a sure thing, and we have two kids penciled in with pending IP shortfalls.  As someone pointed out in another post, one of the reasons we dominated in '04 was that we had 5 solid starters for the entire year, the benefits of which are huge when you look at the cost of having to use "replacement level" starters for any significant # of games.

As for offense...oddly, some of us keep getting shouted down with cries of "he's not 'bad', he's just mediocre!" when we try to point out that JuanCar is an overall liability in right that we should seek to get rid of, but the ZIPS certainly seem to back that up with their projected numbers.  I mean, .265/.315/.405 for a starting corner OF?  Ewww.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jan 9, 2007 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Simple question.
What helps the team more?

A: Replacing Juan with 15mil worth of bat and defense.
 OR
B: Replacing Thompson with 15mil worth of pitching.

It would be easy enough to re-run the projections with both options.  I like A since it helps the team every day.  Also in the playoffs your #5 never starts a game and the #4 starts 2 in 3 rounds max.

The problem was the only OF choice this offseason that made sense was Drew.  The pitching options were even more limited.

Im curious now.  How would 120 games of drew in RF done to help us compared to 32 starts from Schmidt / Zito?

by DriverZn on Jan 9, 2007 9:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just plugged Schmidt in
to the second scenario, and by bumping Thompson down the the sixth starter spot (I used Thompson for the 30 replacement bullpen innings as well) after those changes, per Jason's ZiPS you save about 32 runs (635 projected ER), and comes to 691 runs allowed (adding 56 un-earned runs).

32 runs over the current 2nd scenario and a 71 run improvement over 2006--if I did this correctly and followed the original post.

Really quickly, the lineup of Eckstein, Duncan, Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Juan, Kennedy, Molina, and Pitcher, replacing Juan and ignoring defense or that he certainly improves the bench by quite a few runs. Using the Pinto lineup tool:

Soriano version: 781 Runs
JD Drew version: 786 runs
Juan E. version: 760 runs

Ignoring the contracts, intuitively I still would have rather had Schmidt then the outfielder I think. A Craig Wilson could get you 5-10 runs and provide that depth and insurance for much less.

I like Thompson a lot and would love to see what he has as a starter, I'd rather see him in about 15 starts though as the sixth starter, not making him the fifth starter giving this team zero room for error. Hopefully Weaver can provide this same wiggle room (he projects almost as well as Schmidt, which Schmidt is a 100x better bet to meet his projections) for a decent price.

by plh903 on Jan 10, 2007 12:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
That they are so close to being the same.  I would rather have the bat in the postseason when the #4 and #5 starters really don't matter.

If the breaking news is Mulder has signed I think we all get what we wish.  Thompson for enough time to show what he has then when Mulder returns to the rotation the least effective starter gets bumped, possibly Wells.

by DriverZn on Jan 10, 2007 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thompson projection
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2007/01/categorizing_pi_1.php

Yesterdays article showed that starting pitchers can be successful as either a GB specialist or SO specialist.  As long as the pitcher had at least one of those skills they had a fighting chance.

Todays article on releavers so that GB% is a much better predictor of success in the pen vs as starting.  

Since Thompson is a GB% specialist with an average SO rate he may be better suited to start.  It fits his strength if the research in the article is correct.

This also bodes well for Wainwright as he have both good GB% and SO numbers

by DriverZn on Jan 9, 2007 6:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Typo?
The relief pitching article concluded that GB% isn't a useful predicter of bullpen success and that K% is the only thing that matters. The rest of your post makes it sound like your second paragraph there was a typo of some sort, since I agree with your assessment that Thompson could be more valuable as a starter than a reliever since his strikeout rate wasn't good enough to have much success in the 'pen.

I'm a little more skeptical than Rich is about using ERA for bullpen pitchers. You'd expect pitchers who keep the ball in the infield to be better at keeping inherited runners from scoring, something that ERA doesn't measure. The typical relief pitcher inherits a surprisingly small number of baserunners in a season, so it may not be that big of a difference, though.

by liam on Jan 9, 2007 8:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Typo
What I was trying to say is he was reasonably successful as a reliver despite that role not leveraging his strength.  So moving him to a role that does leverage his strength (gb%) is likely to work out better than most think.

by DriverZn on Jan 9, 2007 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Breaking news: Cards about to sign a pitcher...
Will announce who it is tomorrow most likely. This is according to the Fox Sports Report.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jan 9, 2007 11:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Really...
If true, I guess that probably means either Weaver or Mulder...

Personally, based upon the ZIPS projections and the fact that we really need an innings eater, I think I'd rather have Weaver...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jan 10, 2007 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mulder?
That'd be the smart money, eh?

I just read something disturbing in a Mets mailbag:

The Mets' doctor, David Altchek, performed the surgery on Mulder's shoulder in October, and since he has been given permission by his patient to speak with the Mets about the pitcher's condition. The Mets clearly have lost interest.
How's that for pooping in the picnic basket?

by liam on Jan 10, 2007 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously.
And it should be noted that pooping in a picnic basket is a very gross thing to do.

by plh903 on Jan 10, 2007 1:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eeeeew! Grody!
Derrick Goold and Joe Strauss teamed up to write this piece. It sure sounds like Mulder:
The Cardinals could learn as early as today whether free agent lefthander Mark Mulder will accept their modified two-year proposal potentially worth about $18 million.
snip
Though the offers [from the Cardinals, Indians, and Rangers] are constructed differently, they offer potentially similar value. The Cardinals were the last of the three clubs to guarantee a second year. Because Mulder is rehabilitating from surgery to repair a partially torn rotator cuff, the first year offers a lower base salary plus incentives that would allow him to match last season's $7.75 million take.
Here's hoping that $10mil 2008 salary is structured around incentives, as well. Guaranteed $3m/$5m doesn't sound too unwieldy.

If Mulder comes back to 2005 form, it'll be a steal. Hard to hope for that considering how long he pitched with the injury.

by liam on Jan 10, 2007 2:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yikes
"Mulder would not become available to pitch until July at the earliest, club officials believe. Either Wainwright or Looper could be used to hold his spot until then."

18 million...for...for...for that???

This can't be true, there's no way.  18 million?  Were they even watching him this year?  Honestly.  I've been praising our spending (or lack thereof) for about a year now, but if this isn't some sort of 2mil then 5mil guaranteed type of deal...I'm only going to watch 150 games this year.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 10, 2007 2:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mulder over Weaver
Assuming the 18mil is partially made up of incentives its not a bad deal.  He has more upside than weaver and if he isn't recovered he is likely done and we have a lesser long term commitment.  

It also forces TLR to audition the kids early in the year.  This gives me hope that Wells instead of Wainwright or Thompson gets bumped to the pen.

by DriverZn on Jan 10, 2007 3:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Serenity NOW
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/011007dnsporanglede.31c38b6 .html

" Clifton said all three have offered similar two-year contracts. He confirmed the Rangers' offer is around $18 million, assuming Mulder reaches all of the incentives.

"It's not about money now because the offers are basically the same," Clifton said. "Mark has to make a baseball decision. There are many different factors he has to consider, and he wants to take his time and think it through." "

Ok, so it is some big time incentive-laden deal and also should mean the Cards are getting him considering the offers are the same.

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 10, 2007 2:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Mets don't need
another lefty arm. I wouldn't read any more into it than that.

by Red in Chicago on Jan 10, 2007 8:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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