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2007 ZIPS projections

the long-awaited st louis ZIPS projections are up at BTF. lot of punchless bats on the roster, per this forecast, but the young arms look very sound. jeff weaver projects to a 4.28 era in this telling; anthony reyes, about 40 points lower. by these lights randy keisler (this year's version of dennis tankersley) should prob'y be in the discussion alongside chris narveson as a candidate for the #6/#7 starter role; and in a dire emergency, ZIPS doesn't think blake hawksworth would be a disastrous option. the system also thinks troy cate and andy cavazos are both ready to contribute at the big-league level, and that ricardo rincon's got nothing left. other interesting projections: ryan ludwick and nick stavinoha.

i'll have a lot more to say about these on monday.

also: no post from Erik this weekend. if the baby hasn't arrived by this evening, they're gonna induce pregnancy.....d'oh, i mean labor. induce labor. i'm an idiot . . . . best wishes to Mrs. Erik for an easy delivery and a healthy mom + child.

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Doh!
You beat me by 5 minutes, Larry. Guess my diary is pretty useless now.

by mikedallas23 on Jan 6, 2007 1:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Carp's optimistic
is dirty.

Interesting Dan is working on a module to try to estimate pitcher's conversions from the pen to starters.  Wonder how he's going to do that.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 6, 2007 1:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Reliever to Rotation Module
I imagine he'll do it similarly to how MLE's are created, only this system should be much more accurate, since there's more data on reliably major-league talented pitchers who've made the transition in-season... He'll induce weights from relievers who've been converted to starters, basically. Dan's posted here before, perhaps he'll let us know what he's got in mind.

by liam on Jan 6, 2007 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reliever to Rotation Module
I imagine he'll do it similarly to how MLE's are created, only this system should be much more accurate, since there's more data on reliably major-league talented pitchers who've made the transition in-season... He'll induce weights from relievers who've been converted to starters, basically. Dan's posted here before, perhaps he'll let us know what he's got in mind.

That's precisely how I went about it.  Since a ton of pitchers have mixed roles, it first estimates starts and relief stats on the data and then extrapolates what's needed from there.  

-- Dan Szymborski dan@baseballthinkfactory.org

by DSzymborski on Jan 7, 2007 12:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, so we can argue whether it will happen
but IF we take ZIPS at its word, THEN do you think Weaver is worth 3/27 or whatever?

by nycbirdo on Jan 6, 2007 2:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

no, i don't
the ZIPS projection is only for 1 year; the contract would run for 3. based on weaver's history, the odds are that during at least 1 of the 3 years of the contract, he will be worth less than $0. if weaver would take 1/3 of that contract --- ie, 1 year / $9m --- he might be worth it. but at 3 years, he's still a terrible bet in my opinion.

you'll note, by the way, that ZIPS projects brad thompson to have an era 70 points lower than weaver's, albeit in a relief role. if, to account for the change in role, we bloat thompson's era by 33 percent --- ie, by 1.20 or so --- he's only a moderate downgrade from weaver (4.80 era), but he carries none of the risk. more important, he preserves the cards' spending flexibility, so that they can acquire a better pitcher later on if the opportunity arises. if you commit the $9m right now, to jeff weaver, it becomes almost impossible to upgrade; weaver's your #2 starter come hell or high water. and he's not a #2 starter.

by lboros on Jan 6, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again, taking ZIPS at face value...
Reyes is our #2 starter. Which would be fantastic.

by nycbirdo on Jan 6, 2007 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you have the money...
Weaver's worth 3/27. Thompson is highly unlikely to post a 4.80 ERA over 180 innings: the rule of thumb for converting relievers to starters is generally to tack on 1.5 to the average, which puts him at 5.10... even that seems like wishful thinking. Remember this guy couldn't even stay in the majors last year in a relief capacity.

But regardless the Cards have $14mm available, so even if they spend $9mm in '07 they could still pick up just about anyone at the deadline because $5mm is more than enough to pay the pro-rated portion of all but the most expensive players.

In '08 Izzy and Eck's contracts run out and Molina goes to arbitration, so projecting a $100-$105mm payroll they'll have around $25mm to spend on a shortstop, a closer and two starters. The closer job can go to Kinney or TJ or some 22 year old currently in Palm Beach (the days of $10mm/yr closers have to be coming to an end soon). With Weaver on board they'll need a starter and a shortstop and they'll have $16mm to spend. That seems like an ok position for the organization to be in...

Look, I don't like Weaver that much, but when you've got money in the bank and two starting pitchers that project to bench or worse than bench, it seems prudent to overpay a bit.

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's never prudent
to overpay for a bad player.

by lboros on Jan 6, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah..
terrible. 187 innings, 30 starts, 4.28 era, better than league average by a hair... rotten player.

Overpaying one of Scott Boras' more mediocre clients isn't the most elegant roster move, it won't win Jocketty the 'genius' title, and it might even get him bashed a little, but it'll likely be worth a couple wins over Thompson/Looper. Last year two wins would have kept the Cards out of the playoffs entirely.

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

c'mon guayzimi
his career ERA is 4.58, and he's had ERAs of 5.85 or higher --- far below replacement level --- in two of the last four seasons.

the 1-year ZIPS projection looks decent. he's still not a good baseball player.

by lboros on Jan 6, 2007 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Alright...
since it's your blog you can have the last word on this.

I won't speak of it again... until next June when we'll revisit the wisdom of starting a season with Wells and Thompson/Looper in the rotation and $15mm in the bank. Despair will have engulfed Cardinal Nation by that time and a healthy portion of crow will be on the menu.

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 8:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As long as we
aren't revisiting it in June of 2008 when he has a year and a half and $18 million left on his contract. Whining about the flexibility and the players that could have been if it weren't for his hamstringing salary.

by plh903 on Jan 6, 2007 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
lboros is actually advocating using Looper or any of the other goofball ideas.

I think he's simply saying why the hell would we want to overpay for a bad player.  I would like to see them get someone, even if it is Weaver, but I sure hope Duncan and TLR are confident they've got his problems solved and we're not going to see the 6 ERA guy anymore if we do give him any more than 2 years.

There's still other options out there too.  Many of the guys we've talked about on here, either as trade options or free agents are still available.  Even some of the other players like Ohka, Pineiro and others, who might also be bad, might only command a one or two-year deal.  That might be a better way to go than Weaver for 3.

(On that note, I do hope Weaver comes back, but again, not a three-year deal.)

by mtalken on Jan 6, 2007 11:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what i'm advocating
is that if the cardinals commit three years to any player, they take all three years into account --- not just this year. weaver might be a reasonable solution to this year's short-term rotation crisis, but he doesn't --- in my opinion --- seem like a good 3-year solution.

if the cardinals stay patient, they'll find another, better solution to the short-term problem. maybe it'll be brad thompson; if not him, then somebody else --- jon lieber, kris benson, next july's weaveresque DFA, whatever.

by lboros on Jan 7, 2007 9:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this really isn't a one-year projection
As MGL puts it, ZiPS is really projecting talent (based on statistics), not performance.

That career ERA is good enough for a 96 ERA+, which makes him an average starter.

by Rob H on Jan 6, 2007 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LB, you are forgetting the part
where every opposing lefty turns into Albert Pujols against him.

by Zubin on Jan 6, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where did you get that rule of thumb?
His projection already had 5 starts built it.  So you would have to subtract them out before applying a starter to reliever conversion.  

BP says +25% here:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5471

Since I don't have his projection minus those 5 starts just take his career number and add +25%.  

3.14 * 1.25 = 3.925
I wish we had more "failures" like this guy.  He needs the same chance in spring as the rest.  Lets see what he can do.

by DriverZn on Jan 6, 2007 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying...
don't give him a chance. I'm saying don't count on him for 200 innings and/or much above replacement level performance as a starter.

The guy used to be a starter... He famously pitched 60 innings or so of scoreless ball. He was converted to a reliever by the braintrust because they felt he didn't have good enough pitches to go along with the sinking fastball. If that assessment has changed I would think a competition with Wells for the #5 slot would be appropriate; not counting on him as The Guy and having Looper or the waiver wire as a backup plan.

As for your projection, I'll go ahead and take the over on the 3.92...

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In 2005
Our rotation was:
Carpenter
Mulder
Morris
Suppan
Marquis

There was no room for any rookie to break in that year.  He was put in the pen simply because the only other option was to leave him in the minors.

My person ERA projection as a starter for this year would be ~4.50.  About the same as Mulder/Weaver are likely to provide.

by DriverZn on Jan 6, 2007 6:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather have a mediocre to bad #5
and be able to go pick up John Smoltz or his ilk at the deadline.  The $15M in the bank is an entire contract for a frontline starter.  This enables walt to just eat an entire contract and give up minimal prospects in return for a true differnce maker.  Or, alternately, trade for someone a little cheaper, say the D-Train, and send the Marlins Looper for free, for example.

by Valatan on Jan 7, 2007 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yabut....
don't teams generally just pay a pro-rated portion of  the salary for players acquired mid-season? If you trade for someone at the deadline, aren't you only responsible for 1/3 of that year's salary? Am I thinking straight on this?

Abreu only cost the Yanks $5 million for 2006, I thought. So you could spend $10mill on a Weaver and still have $5mill to pay a frontline guy for working August and September. That assumes the Cardinals are really interested in spending $15 million more for '07...

Not that blowing $10mill on a bad player is desirable, as we've established in this thread, my point is that you only need $5 or $6 million to get a superstar type player.

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 7, 2007 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh my
Best wishes to Erik & family with the new roster addition, but I do hope you mean induce labor -- something tells me that the last thing Mrs. Erik would like now is another pregnancy!

by Elle on Jan 6, 2007 2:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ha
I'm no biologist, but is that even possible at this stage?

Congrats, Erik and family!

by liam on Jan 6, 2007 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

probably not
It happened in an episode of Days of Our Lives (I feel like my IQ just dropped 50 points for saying that) and last week on Grey's Anatomy but that girl had two uteri.

by Elle on Jan 8, 2007 7:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ted Simmons
Ted should be in the Hall of Fame.  When compared with the catchers already in the HOF, Ted's numbers are consistently near the top.  His number's are fabulous despite the drop off when his, and my, heart were broken with his trade away from STL.  There was a stretch of years where everything off his bat was a lne drive, and he rarely struck out.  

by Yadier on Jan 6, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Who in the hell is....
Taggert Bozied!?!

I keep pretty much up to date on the Cards minor league affiliates on a day to day basis and have NEVER heard of this dude.

by Big Red on Jan 6, 2007 2:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's an aging...
journeyman first baseman we picked up, I think, as a minor league free agent.

On the plus side I once saw him hit a ball 500 feet onto a parking lot when he was with the Portland Beavers. I always thought he was an all or nothing masher, but his numbers don't indicate that. There's no chance he'll ever get a single at bat with the Cards, imo.

Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tagg
he's best known for tearing his ACL (? - pretty sure it was an ACL) while celebrating a walkoff HR for the Beavers late in a season a couple years back.  when I saw him play, he could hit... but so can a lot of people at that level.

by madding on Jan 8, 2007 2:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my first thoughts on ZIPS...
  1. Thank God for Pujols and Carpenter. It's so nice to just sit back and know they're going to be the best at what they do, year in, year out.
  2. Good-to-decent rate stats for Rolen and Edmonds (as well as JRod and Dunc), though Edmonds is only scheduled for 120 games or so...could mean a lot of So.
  3. They like Reyes a lot, and the rest of the rotation too, actually. Reyes only gets 150 innings here, and some of the other ones are screwy too (Tankersley, etc.). I really, really wish we had a Wainwright-as-starter projection.
  4. Disappointing numbers for Yadi, Kennedy, Jenc, and Eck (especially those first two).

by nycbirdo on Jan 6, 2007 2:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If you noticed...
the projections only had jenc and eck playing in 120 games each. I dont know about juan, but I think the eck projection was based on this season, because he was injured

by redbirdnation on Jan 6, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Item 3
Dan posted a comment:
I did finish my little start/relief toy. It has Wainwright at 11-8, 3.85 in 166 IP as a starter.
That would be terrific.

by liam on Jan 6, 2007 9:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that would be awesome
still leaves some concern about total IP, with WW at 166 and Reyes at 150. But that's a lot of innings at sub-4 ERA.

by nycbirdo on Jan 7, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Chris Duncan
From the comments section at BTF:

...that would still probably make Duncan a pretty bad player, given that he plays the outfield like he's trying to solve a Rubik's Cube while being strafed by World War I biplanes...

LOL.

by Red in Chicago on Jan 6, 2007 2:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good luck
to Erik and Mrs. Erik this weekend.  Glad we'll be adding 1 more fan to the fold!

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2007 3:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

thnx, i'll take it
just got up from a nap, better sleep while i can.

like that troy cate projection...and i'm thinking there's no reason to sign p dub to platoon with dunc when we have ludwick and stavinoha

by erik on Jan 6, 2007 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ZIPS
Yuck on Encarnacion and Preston.  If these projections play out, there's a good reason not to sign Wilson.  And Yuck on Yadi.  He's gonna have to become a major league hitter at some point.  I think the potential is there but an OBP of .279 and a .600 OPS would make 2 HORRIBLE offensive seasons in a row.  He doesn't have to be an All-Star but he does have to be better than Jason Marquis would be.

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2007 3:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Stavinoha projection
almost identical to Wilson's. Only Stav gets paid the minimum.

by DCGreg on Jan 6, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and Marrerro's
is better.  Why bother w/ Wilson?

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Wilson...
was better last year with Houston than he really was. I think I bought into the whole 'second on the team in RBIs' bit that the announcers would always talk about. I checked Hardball Times, he was 2 wins BELOW bench last year with them... Definitely pass on PW
Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Think about this though
If we had snagged Craig Wilson and non-tendered the Gooch, you could have Marrero, Ludwick and Stavinoa battling for the fifth slot.

Although that is some shaky D coming off the bench and you're relying completely on Encarnacion to play CF when Jimmy is out. Unless Marrero makes the team, he can play Center.

Either way, Taguchi is a black hole.

by plh903 on Jan 6, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone help me out.
I know one of our minor league starters had signed as a free agent to another team. It was just a month ago or so. I was thinking it was Tankersley. Obviously, I am wrong. Who was it?

by Carps on Jan 6, 2007 4:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
it was Tankersley. He's off to the Tigers.
Acquire Jon Lieber!

by guayzimi on Jan 6, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok
So I wasn't wrong. Everyone still keeps talking about him and he's in all the projections. I just assumed I must've been wrong since he was even in these projections.

by Carps on Jan 6, 2007 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, and they sweetened
Tank's contract when he agreed to coach Tiger pitchers in "the Cardinal Way" to field their positions.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 7, 2007 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ex-Cards
Saw in the paper this morning that John Gall and Scott Seabol had signed minor-league deals with the Marlins.

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 6, 2007 5:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Cardinals Caravan
The schedules and rosters for next week's Cards Caravans are out: click click

Really good line-ups this year. I'll be going to the ones in Champaign and Bloomington.

by liam on Jan 6, 2007 5:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i'm mildly bummed
i can't go to the one in davenport-Anthony Reyes, Aaron Miles, Brad Thompson, Colby Rasmus, Blake Hawksworth, Danny Cox, Al Hrabosky, John Rooney.

last year i went, they had john rodriguez, larry bigbie, rick horton and tom lawless...it was fun and all, but that other group is pretty exciting

by erik on Jan 6, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the one we're getting
in Springfield. This time I won't forget.

And congratulations on your impending dadhood, Erik. Just make sure you make him bend the bill of his Cardinals cap.

Sign Kurt Kepshire! The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jan 7, 2007 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

JRod needs to start
And put JuanE on the bench against RHP.  JRod is our 3rd best hitting OF against RHP.

by DriverZn on Jan 6, 2007 5:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I am big on JRod
and saddened by the guess one of our better projected hitters will probably start the year at AAA, beaten out by the likes of Taguchi, Eli, and Speizer.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 6, 2007 6:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What I don't get
is why keep him if they don't want to play him?

So in a couple of years follow Gall out the door with no real value to the team and no value in return.

by Harknights on Jan 6, 2007 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan the Swan
In fairness to Enc, the power numbers for him seem low.  The projected .405 slugging percentage would match the lowest of his eight full seasons (2004). Last year he was .443, year before that .447. Career .441.  He's consistently mediocre, yes, but not quite that bad.

by DCGreg on Jan 6, 2007 8:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about OBP?
Even if SLG is about the same I still would like the extra 30 points of OBP.

Career is even a larger delta.
OBP .378 vs .316

I'll admit that JRod is a small sample size but I would rather he get a chance to show what he can provide that vs JuanE who we pretty much know will suck.

by DriverZn on Jan 6, 2007 8:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd still rather have JRod
out there.  But, I guess in fairness, all the other projection systems out this far have him in the .750-.765 OPS range (Bill James, marcel, Chone and CCH's Balkroth).  

I have a thread going over there picking out all the Redbirds from different systems.

http://cardsclubhouse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17167&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

by RedbirdRay on Jan 7, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It'd be a strange platoon
Rodriguez career OPS:
  vs. LHP .901
  vs. RHP .798

Encarnacion career OPS:
  vs. LHP .759
  vs. RHP .757

by DCGreg on Jan 6, 2007 9:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That sample size
is real, real small. I would be reasonable comfortable saying that JRod splits better against righties.

2005 OPS:

vs LH:  .737 (27 AB)
vs RH:  .834 (122 AB)

2006 OPS:

vs LH: 1.240 (13 AB)
vs RH:  .772 (170 AB)

Memphis OPS:

vs LH:  .612 (23 AB)
vs RH: 1.018 (42 AB)

I can't find anymore minor league splits, I know all those samples are small.

Also I have Encarnacion's career OPS as this:

vs LH: .837
vs RH: .734

As an aside, for all you people that want to throw a gazillion dollars at Weaver. Overpaying for marginal talent sucks. Whatever your opinion on JRod and Thompson is, Looper and Encarnacion certainly aren't worth $28.5 million over the two of them, if anything at all.

It makes me angry every time I think about it.

by plh903 on Jan 6, 2007 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fear of the unknown
Most people are simply more comfortable with a known replacement level player rather than taking a chance on a youngster.

Personally, I don't get it.  I would rather take a chance that the young player will do well instead of some old guy that you know will be average at best.  (i.e. Juan E, Weaver).  At least Mulder has the potential of upside.  He may also be out of the game in a year.

by DriverZn on Jan 6, 2007 10:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But
John is not exactly a youngster, either. He's what, two years younger than Juan?
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Jan 7, 2007 12:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Enc splits
Not sure where you're seeing those OPS splits for Enc.  They look at bit like his 06 splits (.838 and .724, according to Baseball Reference here).

Baseball Reference gives Enc's career splits here.

Of course you're right that the sample size for Rodriguez is small.  But it isn't for Encarnacion, and he just doesn't profile as a guy who screams out for a platoon. He's mediocre, but consistently so.

by DCGreg on Jan 7, 2007 9:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're exactly right
I looked at his 2006 splits on accident. My fault. He certainly doesn't scream out for a platoon as a player, but his middling offense screams out for improvement. If you can get another 60 pts from Rodriguez, why not do it?

If you could sign Craig Wilson for a few million, and So cleared waivers (or something else that Tony would never go for, e.g.: Taguchi will be taking up roster space with his .686 OPS), and Juan was utilized in more like 350 ABs, you could do something like this:

Wilson, Encarnacion, Spiezio/Marrero/whoever against LHP  

Rodriguez, Edmonds, Duncan against RHP

Which could turn a messy and questionable OF situation into something that looks fairly productive. (downright ugly on D though)

I don't know, replace JRod with Trot Nixon, and Wilson with the Gooch (obviously, he'll be on the team so the above was complete fantasy). I'd take that. Rodriguez still has an option anyway.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

JRod and Duncan
I'm encouraged by the ZIPS for both.  However, they have about one full seasons worth of MLB at bats between them and only 87 of those against lefties.  So...we may see a SUPER platoon with our OF next year.  JuanE and Dunc start most games, JRod pinches for JuanE, Gooch comes in for pinch/defense late. Gooch will get the occasional start against a leftie over Duncan. Given their "lapses" in the feild, I would guess neither will ever find themselves in a full time role with Tony.  
All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up imbittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Jan 6, 2007 11:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What's misleading about stats for JRod
is that for virtually all of his career, he has been used in spots where Tony believed he had a good chance of succeeding. Playing every day against every pitcher who happens to be out there is another matter.

That's why I like Duncan. He was protected too somewhat but there were times when he had to go out there on a regular basis regardless of the situation. And generally he came through better than expected.

I too would like to see JRod given more opportunity to show what he can do. But I suspect Tony's decision is based on what he has observed about the players' strengths and weaknesses.

by Fred McTaggart on Jan 7, 2007 5:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jerome Williams
Anyone think Jerome Williams would be a decent guy to bring in at the minimum?  He could either:

(A) Fight for the 5th starter or

(B) Go to AAA and try to work out the problems that cropped up last year.

He was a top rated prospect through 2003 and pitched at 4.25 at Wrigley in 2005.  Granted last year he was horrible, but we are talking about a guy would pitch all of 2007 at age 25.  Lot of upside imo...  He has decent to good years since 99 and would come cheap.  He was mentioned today in passing at mlbtraderumors.com...

Just another cheap shot in the dark.

by Lawless on Jan 6, 2007 7:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well, hell...
It couldn't hurt.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Jan 7, 2007 12:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"In Walt We Trust"
See, my mindset is is that if the Cards sign someone like Williams, he's a diamond in the rough and that we see something about him that's awesome, while if we don't sign him he's obviously useless.

by Fitz on Jan 7, 2007 12:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ex Cub Factor
No.  We won the WS because we had 0 ex-Cubs...don't need to be dangering that strategy by signing Jerome Williams.  Just ask the Tigers how Neifi Perez helped them.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 7, 2007 1:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright the starter
per ZIPS

I did finish my little start/relief toy. It has Wainwright at 11-8, 3.85 in 166 IP as a starter.

That's some 1-2-3

by Harknights on Jan 6, 2007 10:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yeah
i did a quick spreadsheet with the Zips calcs and our projected starting 5/relief 7
(carp/wells/reyes/wainright/weaver + looper/flores/johnson/thompson/hancock/kinney/Izzy); FWIW Springer and kinney's ERA's are interchangable and make no difference to the pyth total.

The Zip calc IP didn't really make sense to me, but keeping ZIP ERA's and increasing IP for some of the starters to reasonable #'s based on career stats or pulled-from-arse TLAR #'s (IE 221 for carp, 200 weaver, 180 for wells, wainwright, reyes) and reducing the numbers for the bullpen esp izzy, I came up with 654 ER allowed. Using 780 as a guesstimate RS stat, I ended up with a 96-66 pyth record.  Not what I'd hoped for, but I'll take it. Esp since i think our offense is going to strongly outperform the 2006 offense in 2007.  Enc is gonna be a stud and duncan is going to continue to improve, and albert will get 600 AB's ;)

However, to me this is a very strong argument for signing weaver; we've lost Suppan and Marquis, two guys whom in the past ate 200+ innings each, and we have replaced them with 3 guys who really haven't shown the ability to pitch 200 innings in a year.  Weaver has exceeded 220IP 3 times and 199.2 5 times.  If he could put up a 4.28 era over even 199 IP he'd be worth the $12M it would probably take to get him to sign a 2 year contract just to keep josh hancock or jorge sosa from having to pitch 100 innings...  

I wonder how Thompson projects as a starter. If Dan can put that up (I'll email and ask) I'll plug Springer into my spreadsheet in his place and see how many wins that costs us, but I can almost garuantee that thompson's 3.6 ERA over ~95 innings in relief is going to be very hard to replace cheaply.

"...in winter, when there's no baseball... I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Jan 6, 2007 11:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thompson as starter
I wonder how Thompson projects as a starter. If Dan can put that up (I'll email and ask) I'll plug Springer into my spreadsheet in his place and see how many wins that costs us, but I can almost garuantee that thompson's 3.6 ERA over ~95 innings in relief is going to be very hard to replace cheaply.

Thompson doesn't really translate as well as Wainwright does - the strikeout loss pushes him down into the danger zone.  He goes from 3.60 in relief to 8-8, 4.47 as a starter.

-- Dan Szymborski dan@baseballthinkfactory.org

by DSzymborski on Jan 7, 2007 12:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Dan
If you check back here, I am sure we are curious about the third reliever-possibly-turned-starter, Braden Looper. So if that one doesn't make your computer explode, I'd love to see it.

Thanks again for all the hard work. Interesting stuff, as always.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 1:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
That projection makes sense.  

The cards have a team built around the no strikeout / ground ball machine.  So it might just work.  Either way I would prefer this risk at under 1 Mil to Weaver at 10 Mil.

by DriverZn on Jan 7, 2007 2:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks!
Thanks for running those for us.  Using those numbers (giving thompson 180IP as a starter) seems to only cost us a little over 1 win.  So, I guess, if Thompson can actually put up a 4.47 ERA, and we think 95 wins will take the central next year, then Weaver ISN'T worth the money.
"...in winter, when there's no baseball... I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Jan 7, 2007 8:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

WHO CARES ABOUT ZIPS
does anyone really care about this. i think walt and tony have a certain type of player they like and that is what they look for. as does every manger and gm. now i am sure it is interesting but the only thing that is important is the cardinals get a quality arm or 2 for the rotation .

one more thing eck will resign and stay in st.louis

SWH

by BRINGBACKWILSON on Jan 6, 2007 11:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I do to...
..if you don't care about predictions then why care about who we sign? Why sign someone if you don't have a prediction in your head about what would happen if they didn't? I hope that Walt and Tony use something other than. "I like that guy" This isn't league softball. I think we need more than 12 guys who will all pay.

by Harknights on Jan 7, 2007 12:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

apparently
most of the commentors here do....

by erik on Jan 7, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Stats
     So... the stats said sign Weaver, Ponson, Spivey?  Baseball, as life, is a fluid affair.  I knew we would win prior to the beginning of the season.  Then "Bad Craziness"....but I still knew we would win.  I would rather enjoy the game and pick my players accordingly.  Stats are fine, and a wise piece of the puzzle.....but..      
     As to next year, we will win, and it will be a much more enjoyable affair, despite some opportunities missed. As Joe Morgan said, "The Cardinals have Pujols.  The greatest hitter in the world!"

by Yadier on Jan 7, 2007 1:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually the stats said don't.
A lot of stat oriented people though the Ponson, Spivy, and JuanE deals were bad from day one.  Those same people were not in favor of the Mulder trade.

This is the weakness of the cards front office is they often would rather have a declining vet over a younger player just to have something that is known.  Even if whats known is bad.

by DriverZn on Jan 7, 2007 2:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
... I agree that the Cards front office is not so bold on youngsters, but you need to have some ground to put your feet onto. Enc is more than ok for what he's getting, even though he has not shined, but he was the best OF available on the FA market, and we had none in our farm system that could replace him. Ponson and Spivey are different cases, those were gambles based on some shiny seasons, so those could be bad (as they turned out to be). But we had options there, so we could gamble.

I do not understand all this hatred for Juan, he put up last year the numbers expected from him (with a wrist injyry in the last two months to diminish his effectivness), both on offense and on defense, yes we could have traded for someone better, but who was available at an affordable price? Remember that he is credited with a total of 16 WS, or 4 WSAB, 94 OPS+, so these numbers, although not spectacular, are solid ground to put your feet onto and plug other experiments in. On top of this, he's easily tradeable, due to his reasonable price.

I'm not Juan's advocate, but if you want to use numbers, use them all!!

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Jan 7, 2007 4:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan did as expected.
I am not debating that he underperformed expectations.  Only that we already had players that could meet or exceed those expectation if only they were given a chance to play.

One of two things went wrong, either:

  1. The cards expected more out of Juan than they got.
  2. They knew what they were going to get but were unwilling to accept the same production from young players.

by DriverZn on Jan 7, 2007 4:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

which players?
J-Rod had had one good season in his life and was considered a butcher in the outfield, and Chris Duncan was a first baseman with zero good seasons in his life, nothing even outstanding in the minors. The Juan signing was hedging their bets against two relatively risky players--and, in hindsight, an overactive market, not to mention a Jim Edmonds injury.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 5:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well..
J-Rod's glove could be supplemented by Gooch. That guy has carried at least an .800 OPS wherever he's gone.

Kenny Lofton signed a 1/3.5 contract, and while his 750-800 OPS is OBP driven, it's not like that's a bad thing. He's a true CF, too.

There were plenty of trade options, I'm sure.  

Juan's not exactly winning gold gloves either, while he's an ok player, $15 million for about the worst regular RF in the NL is not helping a bleak situation.

You should trip and fall over a decent glove corner outfielder, with a replacement level OPS. If there isn't a great option (and Gooch/JRod platoon would have been just fine) it's not like it's a good idea to compound the problem with a hamstringing contract for a marginal player.

I'm going with Driver on this one, I think it's a philosophical issue.

Looper and Juan aren't worth $28.5 million over Thompson and J-Rod, or even Ludwick and Kinney. Not that I am advocating Suppan for Suppan money, that contract was downright terrible, but there's most of your Suppan money right there.

Both of those contracts were knee-jerk moves for middling players that were "proven" (to be averageish, at best) when there were just as good, maybe better, especially considering the payroll implications, options, in-house.

Pay difference makers difference maker money, fill in the holes from within or with one-year contracts.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 6:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I found a free agent tracker from last year
here are some of the contracts: (years/money)

Eric Byrnes - 1/2.5
Jeff Conine - 1/1.7 +option
Brian Giles - 3/30 +option
Jose Guillen - 1/5.5 +option
Matt Lawton - 1/400k
Orlando Palmeiro - 2/1.9
Reggie Sanders - 2/10
Kenny Lofton - 1/3.5
Rondell White - 1/2.75
Jacque Jones - 3/15 (I couldn't find it, but I am pretty sure it's real similar to Juan's)

With the benefit of hindsight, some of those were bad. But, I swear I thought Byrnes and Lofton were no-brainers in that group, and I thought Lawton and Conine wouldn't have been bad either (I would have been wrong on Lawton, obviously).

Still even if none of those look better than Juan (lots should), JRod/Gooch gets the job done for 1/15th of the price.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 6:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if you buy play-by-play defense
as the Cardinals did, having at this point hired MGL (who was very bullish about the acquisition) as a consultant, Juan is about the best defensive right fielder in baseball, worth 10-15 runs above an average right fielder. (Let alone a replacement level outfielder.)

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 6:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't
the Fielding Bible hate him though? I know that UZR was high on him for some reason, but given the discrepancy between the only two fielding systems that I even pay attention to, I just think back to watching him trot around and take a year to dig balls out of the corner.

Of course, my anecdotal evidence means next to nothing in this case. But, I'd be willing to bet that he is more, slightly above average than anything. Anyway, without a boring bunch of crap about defensive systems, if the results aren't intuitive I generally like for a couple of systems to agree with each other, if that makes sense.

Of course, I haven't seen Dewan's stuff for this year, that's only what I've heard.

Unfortunately, as a corner outfielder this hardly makes up for a .443 SLG and a .317 OBP. That's not the kind of OF you go out of your way to devote significant fractions of the payroll to on a three-year commitment.

There's also not much in his stats to suggest that .270/.320/.450 would be any kind of a surprise, quite expected actually.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 6:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not only UZR
but also PMR and Chris Dial's zone rating variant.

And if he's fifteen runs above average on defense, and somewhere around twelve runs below average on offense, it does make up for it. If you believe UZR, Juan's pretty close to average, which is a bargain at $5 mil. annually.

With Juan you're paying for bulk at-bats--he's pretty durable--and a pre-established level of performance. Without a lot of impact bats in the system (read: there's one, and he's in high A) that's not a bad gamble to take.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 7:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

huh,
because at least for 2003-2005; Gassko, Pinto, Dewan, and BP absolutely despise him as a right-fielder, like 25 of 27, 25 of 27, 30 of 37, and a low Rate (according to a Normandin blog I found, he quotes four systems). Even if he has improved that much in PMR, and I know UZR likes him to the tune of 13 runs or so (this is what i remember reading), what gives with the +- system?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2006/4/1/165843/2304

MGL also said this in a WS thread:

So cannot hit a lick.  Versus a RHP, he is less than worthless.  No defense that he can provide can make up for that.  J-Rod or whomever is a much better alternative.  Tony has dissed J-Rod for a while now, for some reason I am not aware of.

When it comes to young or "unproven" players (or non-regulars), Tony thinks he can somehow mix and match through intuition or some such thing, such as who is hot or cold or who is 3 for 7 or 0 for 5 against whom.  Of course, all of that is nonsense.  That is his biggest weakness as a manager.

How is this level of performance anything more than a stop-gap, and how does JRod not give you very close to this for next to nothing?

How about these numbers? (per the same blog)

  1. So Taguchi .288.322/.412; -1.56 pNRAA; -2.24 pNRAA/GP
  2. John Rodriguez .295/.382/.436; +11.44 pNRAA; +6.41 pNRAA/GP
  3. Juan Encarnacion .273/.329/.439; -9.58 pNRAA; -11.39 pNRAA/GP (I think this is his 2006 PECOTA projection, which he slightly underperformed)
The guy has the same career EqA as Adam Kennedy, .263. Duncan had 11 win shares in half the AB, to Juan's 16. Rodriguez gets you 6 win shares in 180 AB.

Maybe we are just throwing out numbers at this point (me at least) and it sucks that the defensive systems can't come to any sort of a conclusion  (actually until 2006, it looks like they had with the exection of mgl) but I still can't imagine that he was more valuable than the aforementioned pNRAA's of JRod and Gooch, or that Lofton and Byrnes (natural CFers) weren't twice the value.

Whatever you want to think about Juan's defense, you are cutting it awfully close in a marginal value sense considering his salary. I maintain that it was a pretty bad signing, and the Birds are better off hitting JRod against RHP this year.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 7:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I should say
that he underperformed that with the bat. And somehow in my html-ineptitude I italicized half my post instead of just mgl's comments like I intended.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 8:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and his comments end
at the word "manager," the rest is mine. Sorry

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 8:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

PMR
has him at 6, -5, and 10 for 2004-2006, so it's not really evidence for or against in hindsight.

But Prospectus's numbers are a little crazy and have been for some time. I know people may really hate Juan, but do we really believe that Chris Duncan is a better defensive outfielder? Duncan is slow, he has poor instincts, and he's prone to lapses in judgment and just terrible misplays. So even if you absolutely despise Encarnacion, he's like Duncan only not slow. And yet somehow Duncan was worth two runs on defense in half a season! People have been committed for less.

As for Dewan, it beats me; but Juan's always looked subjectively to me like a good outfielder, so I guess I've just had the mirror image of the experience everybody else has.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 9:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought mgl
was gone after the 2004 season?

Also, if he's 15 runs above on defense and 12 below on offense that 'doesn't make up for it.'  That takes him to 3 runs above.  Not even half a win.  Add the 2.6 runs he cost on the basepaths and JEncs is replacement level.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 7, 2007 10:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At this point
I'm pretty much arguing whether he has any value at all over his replacement options.

This is basically the point, 1 win isn't worth $10M, and I wouldn't say that he is necessarily worth that, in a chaining sense of replacement.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

whoa, whoa
I explicitly said average. Fielding statistics are generally done in runs above average, to make things as confusing as possible, and I threw out 12 runs below average because if I remember correctly Juancar had a VORP of something like 8.8, and 20 is basically average.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And,
as we've argued before...

A guy who is below with his bat and less than a win or two with the glove is a replacement player.  Defensive specialists are a dime a dozen.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 7, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, no he's not
A guy who is average is average. A guy who is replacement level is about twenty runs below average, unless you're using a definition of replacement level I've never heard.

A guy who is eight runs above replacement with the stick--twelve runs below average--and ten or fifteen runs above average with the glove is absolutely not replacement level. He's basically average, and--I don't know where this got started--he's not below replacement level in any facet of his game.

Now, he can still be a waste of money, but let's at least get the terms right.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Which
is why I hardly pay attention to Rate and FRAR etc., and less attention to even Warp then I used to. I certainly hesitate to bring them into the discussion, but may be worth noting if we are stuck on Dewan and MGL having completely polar opinions on a player.

I'm not saying that Juan is a poor outfielder, but due to a definite lack of consensus and nothing anecdotally that suggests that he is Ichiro out there, I'm not going to assume that he is saving runs on the order that he is not producing them like his contract would suggest he is needing to be.

Considering what his real world replacement is, and the other options that offseason, spotting him +10 annually with the glove (that's generous I think), and that he can be expected to give you a .770 OPS every. single. season. that his contract was preposterous and ultimately prohibitive.

It's pretty moot, as we're stuck with the guy, but I hope this doesn't stop the braintrust from acquiring a more productive corner OF before his contract is up.

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 10:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan's Contract
I don't see how Eric Byrnes was a no-brainer compared to Encarnacion. The man had a 75 OPS+ in 2005. Lofton was a better bet on the field than Encarnacion, but there's an obvious reason not to bang that drum.

Considering the going rate for mediocrity (and worse), Juan's contract was very reasonable and if he wasn't the best available outfielder, he was close enough not to worry about some minor advantage. For all the displeasure over the money, the dollars doled out haven't been an obstacle to acquisitions and I don't see any reason to expect that to change. The Cardinals could've found a more cost-effective player, but why would fans want that if there's no place to spend the extra dough?

by Rob H on Jan 7, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought as a lefty-masher
that plays CF, he was a no-brainer to throw into the mix with JRod, Gooch, Bigbie, and Edmonds.

I don't want the Cardinals to get into the pissing war that is "paying the going rate for medicrity" that's what medicore franchises are doing.

Fans should want the team to spend wisely regardless, every single long-term contract has an opportunity cost of years and dollars.  

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

keep in mind
that the cardinals did acquire a player on the cheap who was very similar with eric byrnes through 2005.

... Larry Bigbie.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 7, 2007 10:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not in the 'down with Juan' camp
but I am in the JRod camp and I think he's been chronically undervalued.  Even if you think he's a butcher in the outfield, he has 300 ABs in the majors that put him around .380 OBP and 400 ABs in the minors in 2004 where he posted a .400+ OBP and his 300 ABs in 2005 in the minors where he posted around a .370 OBP.  He showed plate discipline in the low minors, lost it in High A and Double AA and then posted good walk rates in AAA again after his first year there.

That's the biggest (and most valid, imo) knock against Juan.  He posts some absolutely horrific OBPs and that's the single most important contributor to scoring runs.  If JRod can post 40-50 pts higher OBP than Juan then there's a very real chance that he makes up any defensive advantage that Juan has.

by azruavatar on Jan 7, 2007 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jrod
>>If JRod can post 40-50 pts higher OBP than Juan then there's a very real chance that he makes up any defensive advantage that Juan has.<<

I just never bought the argument that Juan was a significantly better RF than JRod.  Juan has a better arm but never seems comfortable digging a ball out of the corner.  Every other game he seems to give out a free base from a ball in the corner.  Here are the career defensive numbers for Rodriguez and Juan E. in RF--
Jrod (fpct / RF / ZR)
.939    2.48    .853   
Juan E. (fpct / RF / ZR)
.985    2.07    .905

It seems to make great sense to take ABs from Juan and give them to Jrod.  We'll see what kind of shape Juan's wrist is in when he shows up in Jupiter.

by jjray on Jan 7, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Looper starter
8-9, 4.72.  Honestly, I'd imagine that 1-1, 4.50 in 30 innings and then some type of season-ending surgery would be more likely with the Looper starting.
-- Dan Szymborski dan@baseballthinkfactory.org

by DSzymborski on Jan 7, 2007 9:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Personally
I'd think more along the lines of 0-3 16.50 in 5 innings and then some type of career ending injury would be more likely than 4.72.  He doesn't have the options in his stuff to face a major league hitter of any caliber more than once.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 7, 2007 7:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well,
looks like we have a 90 win team. not bad.

Carpenter and the "four question marks" are good for 53 wins.

Thank the Lord for Albert. I still say we need outfield help.

by nybirdfan on Jan 7, 2007 9:13 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good Luck Mrs. Erik
Hi all, new to the site and enjoy reviewing all the good information and comments.

I could not help register and post today after reading that if the baby does not come they were going to "induce pregnancy". Well I am not a doctor but I think that has already be taken care of :) Not trying to be a critic, this just struck me as pretty funny. I hope all went well.

Go Cards!

by birdeye on Jan 7, 2007 10:01 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Regarding Juan
Perhaps if someone taught Juan how to swing the bat correctly & encouraged him to quit doing the little dance before taking off to first base, his offense would increase. He then might be quite an asset to the team!

by busch bird on Jan 7, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

ZIPS and similar stats
Sorry, but I don't see this type of thing as having any relevance at all to the game that's played on the field. Might as well use Tarot cards or go to a fortune teller.

To the extent that the stats play out correctly, the facts are clear anyway. Who couldn't project that Albert Pujols will hit .320, etc., etc.? To project anything for Tagert whatever-his-name-is is pure nonsense.

by Fred McTaggart on Jan 7, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Do you kick puppies for fun?
There is a hit-and-miss quality to every projection system.  The definition of a 'breakout season' is that it's nearly unpredictable.  These aren't just people throwing darts at a dartboard covered with stats nor is it a perfect science.  It is a great conversation starter.

And stats are a pretty hallowed component of modern baseball.  If you don't see how they relate to the game on the field...well I'm not sure where to begin correcting that misconception.

Also, your comments are really a pain in the ass to come across in the threads.  You sound very abrasive and arrogant.  I'm not pointing this out to be an asshole, but if I was sounding like an ass, I'd want someone to tell me so I could explain how that wasn't my intention.

by azruavatar on Jan 7, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your comments
You ask me if I kick puppies for fun, and then you tell me that my comments are abrasive?????

I'm sorry if my comments come across that way to you. I certainly don't intend to do anything except give my opinion on the issue at hand. If there's something in the tone of my posts that upsets you, I'll do what I can to change that.

If it's merely that I'm disagreeing with you or the general tone of the board, it seems to me that that's what a forum should be about. I'm not writing to make you happy or unhappy; I'm merely stating my opinion. Is that all right?

by Fred McTaggart on Jan 7, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's the Tarot cards and nonsense
that make your comments rude.

and yes my kicking puppies line was unneeded.

Your more then welcome to disagree but offer some kind of reasoning.  saying that it's easy to predict pujols is not a valid reason to throw out all projection systems.  What about Jimmy's line?  That's a very resurgent line after seeing Edmonds last year.

by azruavatar on Jan 7, 2007 3:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I did not mean to be rude
I was merely stating, as others have, that I don't understand this kind of projection and don't take much stock in it. I should not have compared it to using Tarot cards, although I'm not as scornful of Tarot as you apparently are.

The "nonsense" was in reference to obscure players with very little information available on which to base any projection.

I appreciate the role of statistics in baseball; I have been playing around with baseball numbers for the past 58 years, but I see them mainly as a way of confirming what I've already seen--Stan Musial was damn good! As for using numbers to predict an upsurge for Edmonds for next year, I simply don't understand that at all. What my numbers tell me is the Edmonds has been a damn good player for many years, and if he stays healthy (which was not last year), he'll be the same player I know and love...minus one more year of age.

Now there is an element of baseball (or any sport) that's closer to Tarot and other forms of mysticism. When players catch fire, or enter the zone or make catches like the one Jimmy made against the Astros, or win the WS after winning only 83 games during the regular season, that's mysticism. And you can't convince me that you can predict that with any numbers.

That's my reasoning.

by Fred McTaggart on Jan 7, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ya, the type of
nonsense that allows Billy Beane to build a contender with a shoe-string budget year in and year out.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 7, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
Does anyone know if there has been a historical "plotting" if you will of various projection systems as compared to a simple three year historical average (to actuals)?  It would be interesting to see which system would be historically closer (BJ vs. ZIPS vs. PECOTA vs. Three year average all compared to actuals each season).  It would also be interesting to see how much projection systems have "improved" over time and if there were certain types of players that lended themselves to projection more than others.

Might be a fun project, but personally I don't have that much time on my hands and suspect it has been done by someone else somewhere along the way.  

A project like that, however, would be the easiest check (though I freely admit it wouldn't help for projecting the Stavinoha's of the world)...

by Lawless on Jan 7, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Evaluating the Forecasts
Sean Smith did what you're thinking of for a subset of the 2006 projections, links are rounded up here.

From Fred:

> Who couldn't project that Albert Pujols will hit .320, etc., etc.?

All's I know is that a monkey would forecast Pujols to hit .331—I'm thinking the smart money's on the monkey, in this case.

by liam on Jan 7, 2007 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
albert is gonna be easy, until that one year comes along (hopefully it never does)

albert has to be the most consistent player ever over there first 6 years, or at least who puts up the production he does

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jan 7, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He'll be easy
Till that one year...that's going to be about .405 85 220.  The scary thing is, I struggled to find a set of numbers outrageous enough to be unrealistic.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Jan 7, 2007 7:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.
I appreciate the info.  I am assuming "Marcel" is just using the prior year numbers.  Looks like projection systems are better than historical totals...  proof positive that they worth - something...

Thanks again.

by Lawless on Jan 7, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marcel
Marcel regresses a player's stats to league average, discussed here. Below average players project to be a little better and above average players project to be a little worse.

From what I've read about ZiPS, it regresses to age- and talent-comparable players. In the case of Pujols, he lists Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell as the two most similar players. At age 27, Thomas batted .308/.454/.606 and Bagwell hit .290/.399./.496, after putting up monster seasons (both batted over .350 and slugged over .700) at age 26 in strike-shortened 1994. ZiPS is projecting Pujols to fall off a bit like they did.

I'd be surprised if that happened, and expect he'll come closer to that 85 percentile optimistic projection.

by liam on Jan 7, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Hardball Times
had an interesting 5 part series evaluating the projection systems.  Some of it was a roundtable discussion that included some very cool comments from mgl, tangotiger, Dan and some others.  Later, they also included PECOTA in the evaluation.

Here is a link to the first article

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/projection-roundtable-part-1-of-5/

by RedbirdRay on Jan 7, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

erm...
if u guys really think that team is gonna win us the division ur out of ur mind, i mean as a cardinals fan im expecting a little bit more out of them.

but again we were underdogs all the way in the playoffs, lets see how a season can be.

o and btw stop ripping on juan encarnacion he aint that bad, and heck if he wasnt a cardinal maybe we arent world champions.

by samael88 on Jan 7, 2007 4:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Silliness is
attacking each other over opinions as to how to evaluate players and create a winner. As a cullture we need to take a step back, relax, and learn to place our thoughts and energies in a more constructive manner.  Life is fun.  Enjoy it and each other.  And, I agree, to continuously bash Juan is getting quite old.  I recall him making significant contributions to our winning effort.  Yes he has flaws, but he will mature, we all do.......hopefully.  
Take care, and enjoy!!!!

by Yadier on Jan 7, 2007 4:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

your right
but Juan e sucks and so do you....kidding of course..good post
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Jan 7, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know.
I think the problem is when people say. I don't believe in projections and it's pointless to engage in projections, but offer no reason for the opinion other than "'cause"

And that is the problem in the country now. People who don't beleive in something "'cause" and that's the only reason.

by Harknights on Jan 7, 2007 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

here's one reason:
the numbers that are fed into the computer system are not all of equal value and they don't account for factors such as physical and mental fitness, injuries, attitude, personal problems, self confidence, bad scoring decisions, etc. etc.

Tony and Walt obviously make use of numbers in making their decisions but they combine these numbers with personal observation, medical records and common sense.

To complain that Juan has a bad contract or that JRod doesn't get enough playing time based on a computer projection ignores too many of the other elements that are important in baseball and in life.

by Fred McTaggart on Jan 7, 2007 10:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TLR not good at getting the most out of players.
Look at how stubborn he was last year with Mulder, Izzy, Marquis, and Juan.

Izzy clearly didn't have it, yet he was allowed to lead the league in blown saves rather than give Wainwright or Looper a chance.

Mulder showed lots of signs of being hurn, yet the team just kept running him out there rather than give Reyes a chance.

Marquis, How could Naverson, Thompson, or ... done worse?

Juan, already beat to death in this thread.

Tony gets a lot out of aging vets, but he doesn't know when to cut his losses with one.  Now its going to be interesting to watch next year.  At the end of 06 and in the playoffs he suddenly ran the kids out there, mostly due to a lack of other options.  However, they showed him they coudl do the job.  Will this put some of his fears about playing young players to rest?  We will see.  

WJ seems to be on board with the youth movement.

by DriverZn on Jan 7, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jaffe's study at BTF
found TLR has historically done better than he should have with his hitters and worse with his pitchers.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/evaluating_managers_part_2_of_2 /

Pretty cool stuff in his 3 part article evaluating managers.

by RedbirdRay on Jan 8, 2007 8:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's exactly where I find fault with the system
Using numbers or anything else to make a case against decisions that must be based on a lot of personal information that is available only to the manager.

I have no idea whether Tony is stubborn or wrong-headed or anything else. I have no idea whether Brad Thompson could have done better than Mulder or Marquis. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I get as frustrated as anyone else when things don't go well. But the manager is hired to deal with all of those personnel issues, and the bottom line is that he has had more success with those decisions than any St. Louis manager since Whitey Herzog.

by Fred McTaggart on Jan 8, 2007 8:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who's bashing Juan?
I just said he had a bad contract, if I can't objectively try and evaluate things like that or form some sort of an opinion, what's the point of doing much more than tuning in to the games?

"JRod should get more playing time/they were better options last winter" doesn't = "Juan Encarnacion lights animals on fire"

by plh903 on Jan 7, 2007 9:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bwahaha
but I wish he did. That would be a far better game-opener than Ozzie's back flip.

by nycbirdo on Jan 8, 2007 11:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan E's Contract
If Juan would have signed for 3/12 would everyone have been happy?

If he made 4MM a year instead of 5MM I think we would all think higher of his value.  And its JUST 1MM, other teams have much worse contracts.  Just Sayin.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Jan 8, 2007 1:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Its not the contract.
Its the playing time.  If he sat on the bench agains RHP for the next 2 years I would be much happier.  The guy cannot hit RHP at an acceptable level for a corner outfielder.

by DriverZn on Jan 8, 2007 2:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then you're looking at
A platoon outfielder making $5M next year. Especially as the RH bat in the split-duty arrangement, there's little chance that could be a worthwhile contract. He would have to absolutely torch LH pitching to justify such a deal.

Using the current configuration of outfielders, here is how I would project playing time:

  • Jimmy: 145 games/135 starts; has two stints where he can't play for a week, but no DL time
  • Lurch: 145 games/125 starts; a few token starts against lefties, loses a few against righties to Speezer
  • Brekky: 130 games/105 starts; loses starts to JRod, but comes in as PH or for defense; loses 20+ games due to a lower leg injury, caused by sliding aggressively, trying to cut off a ball in the corner; overall stats look better, after losing at bats versus righties
  • The Gooch: 145 games/40 starts; proves that he can't hit on a consistent basis, but still gets playing time because LaRussa likes his fundamentals (and he plays better defense than the alternatives)
  • JRod: 120 games/40 starts; starts off hot, enough for LaRussa to give him a chance subbing in for Brekky against some righthanders
  • Speezer: 55 games/20 starts (OF-only); picks up mostly versus-LH starts in leftfield; plays quite a bit as part of double switches
  • (Assorted OF options): 21 starts
This, of course, assumes that no other outfielders are aquired before or during the season. I tried to blend what I would like to see with Tony's proclivities.
(One major assumption I made was that one of the coaches gets to Brekky and gets him to hustle in the outfield. This, combined with fewer "vulnerable" at-bats versus righties, transforms him into a fan favorite.)
Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Jan 8, 2007 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

right
we ARE looking at a platoon outfielder at $5M/year. and that's what people are saying: a) juan's performance is decent against LHP, but not good enough to play against RHP; b) so, based on performance, he should be a platoon player, rather than an everyday corner outfielder; c) so, he shouldn't have been signed at $5M/year.

you're coming at it from the opposite end, which is, he's signed to this contract, so he should play every day. and that's not really the right way to go about it, either prior to signing him or now. prior to signing him, the proper approach is to evaluate him based on expected performance, and refuse to pay more, rather than say, "well, it's going to take $5M to sign him, so I guess he's our everyday RF from here on out." now that he is signed, that money is going to be paid regardless, and so is JRod's salary. we already have to pay them both regardless of how much PT they each get, so why not go with the one we think is going to perform better on the field?

by nycbirdo on Jan 8, 2007 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point, nycbirdo
If I had my way, I would have Rodriguez get quite a few more starts in place of Encarnacion. John is a better hitter vs. righties and draws more walks against all pitchers. While he swings & misses nearly as often as Juan, he has a much better approach at the plate.

That said, Encarnacion is a better defensive player and could be extremely good if he is mentored properly (see above). With Jimmy advancing in years (and, really, it's the mileage in his case) & Duncan manning LF on most nights, LaRussa needs to limit the amount of games where Edmonds is tasked with covering the entire outfield. If Rodriguez can take the starts against the really tough righthanders (with a few games against journeymen thrown in to maintain his confidence), it makes Brekky look that much better. (Actually, it doesn't make him look better - it makes him better if you limit his problem areas.)
Also, I tried to keep this grounded in reality. LaRussa has shown little confidence in JRod, has entrusted Taguchi with way too many at bats despite his limitations, & has been known to give away playing time to Marlon Anderson/Eduardo Perez-types just to improve his strategic flexibility, offensive production/defensive ability be damned! Juan will continue to get playing time because Tony trusts him more than the alternatives.

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Jan 8, 2007 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Enc
I mentioned it above but I think it's worth saying again: Enc's career OPS is .759 vs. LHP and .757 vs. RHP. This whole campaign to platoon him strikes me as a little off. If he's unacceptable vs. RHP, isn't he equally unacceptable vs. LHP? And then shouldn't we be talking about replacing him, rather than platooning him?

by DCGreg on Jan 8, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Platoon
You appear to be making the assumption that a platoon is called for only if the starter in question is not consistent between RH/LH splits.

In fact, a platoon can be called for regardless of Juan's consistent splits IF you have another alternative that is simply better versus only one of the splits.  E.g., if JRod hits righties to the tune of +.050 OPS or more over Juan, but hits below Juan's consistent mediocrity versus lefties, wouldn't it make sense to consider a platoon?

Similarly, if we didn't really have a better alternative than Juan versus lefties, he'd be the guy for those starts, right?

A .75x OPS for a corner outfielder is definitely nothing to write home about, but it's still above replacement level...so until we DO come up with a better alternative, a L/R platoon would seem to be indicated with the pieces we currently have.

That probably won't happen since Tony seems to have about as much faith in JRod as a starter as some of us do in Duncan earning a Gold Glove for his OF defense, but...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jan 8, 2007 7:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan
Personally, I think that Juan's contract situation may be the best thing that he brings to the table right now.  In this current market, Juan's rate of pay is pretty reasonable.  That's why I've been saying for awhile now that he could be excellent trade bait.  He's not a world beater, but he is affordable for a team that needs outfield help.  If the Cards could get some young talent for Juan, I'd really like to see them pull the trigger on some sort of deal.  Not bashing Juan, but he could probably net the Cardinals an overall upgrade if they were smart about the type of deal they made.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any huge ideas about what they would do with the outfield for 2007.  I just think Juan could be more valuable, in the long run, as a trade piece, than playing RF in Busch next year.  

by the red baron on Jan 8, 2007 2:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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