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Hall of Fame Discussion- Jack Morris

I wrote a few days ago I thought it would be fun to open a discussion on the Hall of fame candidates.  Originally I anticipated discussing around 12 of them.  I doubt there will be the time or interest now, so I'll stick to the guys most likely to get in- other than Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn, since both are sure bets.  Like I said before, Mark McGwire has been discussed and Jose Canseco seems destined to be blackballed for steroids, so that leaves the top vote getters last year:

Jim Rice
Rich "Goose" Gossage,
Andre Dawson,
Bert Blyleven ... who is discussed here    
Lee Smith,
Jack Morris
and Tommy John.

And in case you'd like the reference, the rest of the ballot is here: Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Dante Bichette, Bobby Bonilla, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Dave Concepcion, Eric Davis, Tony Fernandez, Steve Garvey, Orel Hershiser, Wally Joyner, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Paul O'Neill, Dave Parker, Bret Saberhagen, Alan Trammell, Devon White and Bobby Witt.

I know some of you mentioned Albert Belle as a worthy candidate, but given his low vote totals from last year, I think that discussion deserves to be tabled behind at least Rice, Dawson and Goosage.

After January 9th, I'd like to shift focus to some of the Veteran's Committee nominees that have a St Louis connection: Ken Boyer, August Busch Jr, Curt Flood, Whitey Herzog, Jim Kaat, Marty Marion, and Joe Torre.  Voting results will be announced February 27th.





Star-divide

This diary, I'd like to focus on Jack Morris.  This is his 8th year on the ballot.  He pitched for 18 seasons, mostly with the Tigers, from 1977-1994.  

Why Jack Morris?  Well he is kind of the anti-Blyleven.  While Blyleven was better than his stats (at least wins) suggest, Morris probably wasn't as good.  Blyleven didn't get a lot of recognition for his pitching, while Morris did.

It's also kind of interesting that Blyleven beat Morris when they went head-to-head in the postseason.  But a few years after Blyleven left Minnesota, Morris arrived as a free agent and he won perhaps the biggest game in the Twins' franchise history as recounted here.

The case for Jack Morris:
The case for him centers on his relative dominance in the 1980s and early 1990s
He led all pitchers in the 1980s with 332 starts, 162 wins, 133 complete games and 2,443 innings.  
He had three 20-win seasons (1983, 1986, 1992).
He had 11 seasons with 200-plus innings and three 200-strikeouts.
He received Cy Young Award votes seven times finishing 3rd twice (1981 & 1983), 4th (1991), 5th (1986 & 1992), 7th (1984), 9th (1987),
He made 14 Opening Day starts, tied with Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, Walter Johnson and Cy Young for second-most ever, two behind Tom Seaver (16)
A five time all-star, he started in 1981, 1985 and 1991.  He had a 2.53 ERA with eight strikeouts in 10 2/3 ASG innings
1991 World Series MVP with a 2-0 record, 1.17 ERA, including a 10-inning 1-0 victory in Game Seven
Member of three World Series Champions: 1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins and 1992 Blue Jays.

His 254 wins are 40th on the all-time list.  Relatively few non-HoFers are above him: Tommy John (25), Bert Blyleven (26), Jim Kaat (30), Bobby Mathews (23), Tony Mullane (28), Jim McCormick (37) and Gus Weyhing (38).  If you scan down that list as far as #50, you will only find two more non-HoFs: Jack Quinn and Jack Powell.  Mathews, Mullane and Powell are interesting themselves and they have been mentioned before.  I'll post something on McCormick, Weyhing and Quinn, who is one of the more amazing players in baseball history, in the discussion.

His 2478 strikeouts are 31st all-time.  That is more than Sandy Koufax (#38, 2396), Robin Roberts (#40, 2357), Jim Palmer (#48, 2212), or Pete Alexander (#49, 2198).

His 3824 innings are 48th all time.  That is more than Jim Bunning (#53 3760) or Waite Hoyt (#52, 3762).

He had his share of recognition with the writers.  As the table below shows, he awards overall compare favorably to Don Sutton and Phil Neikro.  He even had more all star appearances than Fergie Jenkins or Gaylord Perry.

The case against Jack Morris:
Like I said, the biggest knock against him is that he wasn't as good as his wins indicate.  The composite record of his teams is 1515-1297; that's a very good .539 winning percentage or 87 wins a season for a team.  The only truly bad team he ever played for was the 1989 Tigers (59-103) and he was 6-14 with a 4.86 ERA for them.  His overall era was 3.90 compared to a league average of 4.08.  His Career ERA+ of 105 is good, but not even within sniffing distance of the top 100.

While his 2478 strikeouts are pretty good, he has some less than hall-worthy company: Mark Langston is right behind him on the all time list with 2464.  Good, not great pitching contemporaries like Jerry Koosman (#27, 2556),  Chuck Finley (#22, 2610) and David Cone (#21, 2686) and Frank Tanana (#20, 2773) and are all ahead of him.  The same can be said for his 3824 innings.  Charlie Hough (#49, 3801) is right behind him; ahead of him are: Jerry Koosman (#46, 3839), Dennis Martinez (#39, 4000) and Frank Tanana (#34, 4188).  His career stats are good overall, but not close to automatic pass.  If Bert Blyleven, Tommy John or Jim Kaat couldn't get in on the strength of their overall career numbers, I'm not sure for how much Morris' count.

Conclusions:
After running through the numbers I have to admit Morris has a much more compelling case than I previously thought.  He was pretty dominant in the 80s and early 90s and his career numbers, while not good for an automatic pass are within hall of fame range.  By reputation (which counts a lot for the HoF), he was as good of a starter as any in the 1980s.  In any case, I can't imagine him getting the vote this year.  Last year he only got 41%.  Given the recent history of the vote, he will have to inch up year by year.  

So what does everybody think?  I don't think there is a chance he is inducted this year, but should Jack Morris be a hall of famer in 2007?  Should he ever be a hall of famer?


     

Poll
Should Jack Morris be in the hall of fame?
  • Yes, he deserves it now.
  • Yes, but not now. Maybe a few more years or even the Veteran's Committee.
  • No, he was good, but not a hall of famer.

  30 votes | Results

0 recs | Comment 4 comments

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Jim McCormick, Gus Weyhing, Jack Quinn
Like I wrote here are some interesting digressions on some guys on the all-time win leader boards...

Jim McCormick was a boyhood friend of the HoF, King Kelly.  They were separated early on in their professional careers but were reunited as battery mates in 1885-86 with the White Stockings (Cubs).  Jim went 3-3 in the 1885 and 1886 World Series against the Browns (Cardinals) those years.  Unfortunately he was stricken with rheumatism two years later and was forced to retire at only 30 years old.

"Rubber Wing" Gus (Weyhing) is another 19th century ball player.  His career spanned eight teams in four major leagues over 14 years.  According to some sources, he is the career leader in hit batsmen with 286.  When he retired in 1901, he was the last gloveless pitcher in the majors.  I don't think he was as good as Bobby Mathews, Tony Mullane and to a lesser extent Jim McCormick and Jack Powell.  His ERA was just about average overall, and he completely lost his effectiveness after the mound was moved back to 60.5' from 50' in 1893.  He did play for the Cardinals for a seven games in 1900 and after a July 25th 5-18 loss, he was released.  Since he didn't get the 10 days pay he was entitled to he got a deputy sheriff to seize the St. Louis share of the gate at Brooklyn, but it came to less than the $100 he'd claimed.

Jack Quinn is one of the more amazing people in all of baseball history.  He started playing professionally at the age of 14 and didn't stop until he was 50!  He got started at a semi-pro game in Connellsville, PA.  The story is 14-year-old Quinn threw a foul ball back from the stands to the catcher, hitting his mitt dead center.  The visiting manager offered Quinn $5 for a win in the next game, $2.50 for a loss.  Unfortunately his debut in the majors came 11 years later in 1909.   Quinn had an amazing career.  In all, he won 247 games with eight clubs (then a record) in three leagues.  He still holds a number of age related records: the oldest ML player to win a game, to hit a home run, to lead his league in a major category (saves, in 1932), and to start games in the World Series.

by Zubin on Jan 3, 2007 2:27 AM EST   0 recs

MORRIS
i remember the 10 inning performance vs the braves in 91. he was awesome as was smoltz. morris was a very good pitcher and most likley deserves to be in the hall. but i am not sure he will get in this year maybe in a few years. i think he could fall into the group that gets overlooked for a while.

one quick comment on big mac . i think he deserves to be in. i dont think he will get in this year. but most likley very soon. big mac is one of my all time favorites and unless there is proof he did roids he should get in.

last note

pete rose should be in the hall for what he did on field as a player bottom line!

SWH

by BRINGBACKWILSON on Jan 3, 2007 5:07 AM EST   0 recs

Do Rice next...
In my book, he's the most deserving of the guys on the list.  

On a side note, last week I went to the hall for the first time.  Incredible.  

Did you know Larry's in the hall?  Well at least in the gift shop.  Clearly displayed is Diehard Cards with Larry's name on the cover.  

by Brock20 on Jan 4, 2007 11:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Thanks Brock20...
Nice to know someone is reading these.  Don't get me wrong they are fun and educational for myself too, but its nice...

And I am working on Rice, Though the format will be changed a bit for the next diary.

by Zubin on Jan 4, 2007 3:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

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