Oh no! Not another prospect ranking list!

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 1:18 AM EST in St. Louis Cardinals News

Back to my usual weekend blogging here at VEB, thanks everyone for your congratulations. Believe or not, I've been sleeping ok. Mom and baby have been great.

It's been somewhat of a slow week news-wise, other then maybe the announcement of the All Star Game coming in to StL in 2009. Many of you may know I've starting blogging the Cardinal farm system, and it's been a very fun learning experience so far. With not much else to talk about, I thought I'd throw out my personal picks for the top 15 list of the Cardinal prospects. Feel free to argue, these things are usually fun to look back and laugh at years from now. With props to John Sickels, I'll put my little 2 cents beside each player.

First a quick explanation. Originally, I had planned on doing this all scientific like, basing my judgments on all sorts of peripherals and such, but they don't tell you the whole story. For example, a lot of experts are sort of down on Nick Stavinoha after a mediocre season, but not many have taken notice that he was hitting .324/.347/.479 in 74 at bats the first month of the season and then he injured his ankle early May. He returned May 17 and struggled upon his return, hitting only .227 in 132 at bats until end of June. Since July until the end of the season he hit .332/.384/.556, including 8 homeruns in 214 at bats. Until that point, he had only hit 4 homeruns in 203 at bats. Or some have noted Ottavino needs to work on his control, which may be true and all, but what they don't take notice of is that Ottavino was learning to throw a new pitch, the sinker. Then you have other things like league averages, park factors, etc. It's just easier to go from the gut here.

Colby Rasmus CF (I think we all can agree on this.)
Jaime Garcia SP (K rate dropped some upon call up to A+, but good control and is an extreme groundballer.)
Adam Ottavino SP (Good fastball/slider combo. 3/4 delivery, susceptible to lefties, southpaws hit .320/.417/.474 against.)
Jon Jay LF (polished college hitter, high contact guy. Strong lower body suggests he could hit for more power, but that's not his game. Walked more then he struck out. Lefty. Tony Gwynn-light? There, I said it.)
Blake Hawksworth SP (Very nice rebound from shoulder surgery, could be in rotation for good in '08.)
Chris Perez (hard-throwing closer, mid-nineties fastball with a plus slider. Should be promoted aggresively.)
Bryan Anderson C (line drive hitting catcher who rarely strikes out. A hitting catcher in St. Louis? The world has gone topsy-turvy.)
Cody Haerther LF (Overcame an injury riddled first half to post a solid 2nd half.)
Tyler Greene SS (52 stolen bases out of 56 attempts in his brief MiLB career. Lots of power, but strikes out a ton. Failed miserably in pitching dominated FSL, rebounded in Midwest League. Should make jump to Texas League, a more hitter-friendly place for him to continue to gain confidence.)
Nick Stavinoha RF (See comment for Haerther.)
Mark McCormick SP (Great fastball/curve, very high ceiling but command always an issue. Bit by injury bug last season.)
Daryl Jones OF (Everyone loves his tools, but a long way away.)
Mitch Boggs SP (If he was hittable at Palm Beach, I'm afraid what will happen to him at Springfield. I still think he's under-rated by most.)
Blake King SP (potential sleeper, former juco strikeout leader had impressive debut for JC.)
Mark Hamilton 1B (Pitchers adjusted to him after hot start, but lots of power.)

Narrowly missing the cut- P Troy Cate certainly deserves mention, considering his dominant season and recent winter league exploits. Also coming just short are OF Jon Edwards, SP Eddie Degerman, SP Tyler Norrick, RP Mike Sillman, SP Brad Furnish, SP Trey Hearne.

So there you have it. A quick note for when you look at some of the prospects. JC is very hitter friendly, so be easy on pitchers and tough on judging hitters. Same goes for Springfield, it's very homer happy. Quad Cities slighty favors pitchers, Memphis a bit more so. Don't get too excited about what a pitcher does at Palm Beach, it's very much a pitchers park and quite supressive against power hitters. Mark Worrell kinda proved that point last year. (See Dan Szymborski's minor league park factors.)

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hello birdos

Hi there first time caller long time listener. Can't offer anything of importance, but if there's no baseball it might as well snow!

by whit on Jan 21, 2007 2:02 AM EST reply actions

How about..

Narveson, Pomeranz, Ryan, Marti?

I would put Narveson up there after he owned the PCL last year, and those other guys might be worth a mention.

Like the rundown in terms of potential though, I have enjoyed the site as well since I discovered it a couple of weeks ago.

by plh903 on Jan 21, 2007 2:28 AM EST reply actions

club's plans for Narveson?

I wonder what plans, if any, the club has for Narveson. There is no room in the pen for him with Rincon, TJ, and Flores ahead of him from the left side. With the acquisition of Franklin, I doubt he'll get a realistic look at the 5th starter slot (Franklin will be given the slot out of ST ala Ponson last season). As he is out of options, does the club really think he'll pass through waivers back to Memphsis? I find that hard to believe.

by jjray on Jan 21, 2007 10:07 AM EST up reply actions

narveson probably

deserved mention, however i think he was aided a bit by his homepark last year, and he's been traded twice and waived, which i find kind of telling.

i'd like to see pomeranz miss more bats. he's a big guy at 6'7" 220, but needs to find an out pitch. he's only 22 and could start at AAA next year, so he's moving up the ladder and has time to develop. he missed starts due to a sore shoulder, keep an eye on that.

marti is a hacker, he strikes out in 30% of his ab's. he'll struggle to hit .260 in the majors, though he's got a lot of power. i just have a hard time calling a 30+ year old a prospect.

ryan to me seems like he would make a decent utility infielder, not a solid regular.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 6:43 PM EST up reply actions

I would agree with that,

although with Narveson 24 isn't so old that he couldn't be making significant strides. His k/bb at his PCL stop still wasn't something to write home about.

I was just more after your thoughts on those other guys than anything. Not that they deserved top 15 status.

I would say that Pomeranz considering his size has some upside professionally that plenty don't, and that Ryan and Marti have decent shots to contribute as bench players in the near future. Which is saying something I suppose. Like they may be worth carrying over Miles and Preston next year, depending on how this year goes and the pricepoint, if it were to come down to that or something.

by plh903 on Jan 22, 2007 7:34 AM EST up reply actions

By next year I mean 2008

by plh903 on Jan 22, 2007 7:35 AM EST up reply actions

nice list

I agree on most accounts. Is Haerther higher than Stavinoha because of his age? I still give Stavvy props for rebounding so well in the second half and the fact he's only been a pro for a year and a half.

Also, where do you rank the trio of college arms we picked up early in the draft(Furnish, Daley, Degerman)? Top 20? Top 30?

Trey Hearne. Old for his level, not a stuff guy, but clearly he knows how to get people out. I see Brad Thompson Lite, what about you?
His Swing partner in crime Adam Daniels, also quite old for Low A but he had a good year, start him at AA?

by mateodh on Jan 21, 2007 2:55 AM EST reply actions

i think all 3

would be close to top 20, top 25. i've heard daley has some pretty good stuff, scouts are surpised he doesn't miss more bats. i like degerman, but he walks over 4 batters per 9, did so also in college. i like the daniels mention, i don't know much about what he has stuff wise.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 9:58 AM EST up reply actions

Dan Moylan

What happened to that guy? He was considered an excellent defensive catcher in college and has a great K:BB during his minor-league career. Has he been battling injury the last two years or was he officially designated organizational filler after Molina emerged?

Obviously, I'm not suggesting he should replace someone on your list, or even in the list of honorable mentions. Just curious to know why he's playing so little at at so many levels the past two seasons.

by liam on Jan 21, 2007 3:33 AM EST reply actions

i know he was battling injuries

and i think he's now a free agent. not sure if they'll bring him back or if he's already signed elsewhere, i haven't seen

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions

Re-signed?

He's listed on the PBC roster, so I'd think he's re-signed with the Cardinals. He looks like he'd make a fairly useful 8th-hitter and backup catcher. Too bad he missed so much of these last two seasons.

by liam on Jan 21, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

Young OF

PECOTA projects both Jon Jay and Colby Rasmus to be roughly equal to our other RF options. I hope in spring they get a fair shot at a starting job. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to trade Juan for, well anything. I have nothing against Juan but it makes a lot more since to break a cheap young kid in if they can do the same job.

Jon Jay projects to a decent OBP and fair OPS. He has enough speed. If PECOTA is correct he would be our best leadoff option.

Rasmus looks like he is a year off. But we have said the same about other young players and been surprised.

by DriverZn on Jan 21, 2007 3:36 AM EST reply actions

When did it happen?

Predictions and stats are great -- I like them just as much as the next guy. But just because Jay or Rasmus is thought to be 'just as good' as the guys on the big squad doesn't mean they need to be ticketed for St. Louis.

Jump them both up to AA and let them feast on pitching first. IF Stavy or possibly Marti is ready, I could see one them maybe getting a shot. I guess it depends on whether or not P. Wilson or somebody else is brought in.

I really just hope Rasmus stays in the same path to be Edmonds' apprentice. And yes Jay had a great year, but one good (half) year in the low minors doesn't assure success. St. Louis is finally starting to build up some good prospects, something most of us haven't seen in quite some time.

Pujols just did WHAT...

by gforce on Jan 21, 2007 9:46 AM EST up reply actions

you're probably right

but it's interesting none the less to see what pecota thinks these guys can do given their recent work. these are real smart people who have put together one of the more accurate predictive systems in baseball.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 10:08 AM EST up reply actions

We have an opening

I am not saying they have to stary here. Only that if they impress in spring they should get serious consideration.

Its not like Juan is a cornerstone to this team. The guy is barely above replacement level. If one of them shows they are ready for a shot, I way give it to them.

At some point we have to let the kids play and right now we have 3 crap options in RF at the major league level.

by DriverZn on Jan 21, 2007 3:20 PM EST up reply actions

Agree Absolutely

Jon Jay, Stavinoha, and Rasmus need to be everyday players. They won't be that in St. Louis just yet. I'd be thrilled if they made it all the way to AAA this season and put up equivalent production to their ZiPS projections. (THRILLED!) Marti and even Haerther, and of course Skip, would be nice to see on the bench in the Lou this season, but it would be a waste for those others.

I've been a little bit concerned that the Cards might re-sign P-Dub lately. He doesn't look to offer anything more than Ryan Ludwick, except better defense.

A player who looked to be better than Wilson who came up while looking through Dan's ZiPS spreadsheet is Adam Hyzdu. He killed AAA lefties in limited plate appearances last season (.413/.520/.744 line over 121AB) and Sackmann's system likes his defense in all three outfields. (The splits are at that link, too.)

Unfortunately, he's signed with the Fukuoka Hawks.

Here's hoping they let Wilson sign elsewhere and give Ludwick a shot. Or maybe Cody Haerther, Marti, or—heaven forbid—John Rodriguez.

I wouldn't mind if the outfielder they're awaiting medical reports on turned out to be Bernie Williams. He hit lefties well last season and should play one more season to get the thirteen HR he needs to reach 300.

by liam on Jan 21, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions

Haerther too

his PECOTA for '07 is very strong also. I'm not sure he'll be more than a 4th OF but maybe that's really what Juan is right now.

by chuckb on Jan 21, 2007 1:02 PM EST up reply actions

What's the latest on these prospects not listed?

3b - Travis Hansen

c- Michel Hernandez

of - Reid Gorecki

by Hinkster on Jan 21, 2007 9:45 AM EST reply actions

here goes

hanson was miserable .223/.278/.295 between memphis and springfield. he was demoted to springfield. i have no idea what happened.

hernandez was hurt for much of the year with a strained oblique, he hit .274/.336/.337 for memphis. i'm not sure, but i think he's a minor league FA.

gorecki was on fire for the month of april, he hit 9 hr in 98 ab's, hitting .306/.352/.684. He was miserable for the rest of the season, his next best month was august when he hit .236/.325/.387. he was called up for a the last few weeks of the season to AAA, but stunk there too. he was recently removed from the 40 man roster.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 10:24 AM EST up reply actions

Hernandez and Hanson

Hernandez is on the 40-man roster. Hanson needs to have a good season to stay on it.

I'm hoping the Angels cut Dallas McPherson, since he needs back surgery and hasn't contributed anything at the MLB level for them and we can pick him up on some kind of creative contract.

by liam on Jan 21, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions

Good thought

I'd take that gamble. If he could ever get healthy you have to believe he could post 850 plus OPS...

by Lawless on Jan 21, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions

Parasite

BA says hanson suffered from a parasite infection. he lost weight and strength. i dont know if that accounts for everything.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/263152.html

by dmb60614 on Jan 22, 2007 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

welcome back erik

glad to hear that things are going so well w the li'l fellow.

i wouldn't put any of these guys in the top 15, but these are my own favorites who i'd add to the worth-a-mention list: andy cavazos and dennis dove both have an outside chance to break camp with the cardinals, and mark worrell will be pitching at memphis this year; any of those three might become serviceable middle relievers. mike parisi keeps the ball down and missed some bats in double A last year; i think if he maxes out his upside he could develop into a back-end starter someday. outfielder nathan southard had a nice debut in short-season A; old for his league but apparently has some ability. another '06 draftee who might be worth keeping an eye on: gerry daley, an extreme groundballer who allowed 0 hr in 74 inn at short-season A.

finally, i agree with the poster above who mentioned adam daniels. he is a groundball machine who started slow last year due to injury last year and apparently had some atrocious luck ---- .351 batting avg on balls in play. he struck out nearly a man per inning, had a 3:1 k/bb ratio, and allowed only 3 hr in 138 innings. his biggest asset: he suffocates left-handed hitters. faced 136 of them last year at low A and struck out 52, or 39 percent. yes, he is old for his league (23 last year in low A); still might have a future as a LOOGY.

by lboros on Jan 21, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions

i meant to make mention

of Dove and Cavazos. both could make an impact as soon as this yea. another reliever I also could've mentioned matt scherer, he struck out nearly 12 per 9 in middle relief for palm beach.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 10:04 AM EST up reply actions

Thanks Eric....

For those of you who know Eric as the sunday main boarder, you are missing out. Future Redbirds is truely an undiscovered gem in the Cardinal blog universe. (I say undiscovered based on the comments, or lack thereof.)

I cannot really disagree with the list, but I will tell you on personal observation that I really like Chris Perez and Bryan Anderson, having seen both of them in the Quad Cities.

Perez: I saw Perez the night after seeing Brad Lidge. Now, granted, this was when Lidge was struggling a bit, but Perez's "plus" slider is for real. Its' absolutely nasty and has a late break on it. I maintain that he'll be in Memphis before the end of the year. He's for real. Sickels gave him a B-, and he's the man, so I cannot call him out on that, but my man crush would give him a B. I cannot describe how absolutely sick that slider is.

Anderson: This is a guy that we should all watch, as he just turned 20 in December but was a mid season all star and end of season all star. He's built like Jason Varitek, short (they list him at 6 foot 1, but I'm that and I was looking down on him) and solid. He runs the bases extremely well and is quick for a catcher. He only hit 3 dingers, but hit 29 doubles. He has power potential. If you're not drooling yet, he had a .377 OBP and . 794 OPS. He's far away, but his potential is there.

I mentioned this guy to Eric on his website, but a guy who has run under the radar is Jose Martinez. He's a twenty one year old Venezulian prospect. The Cards sent him to winter ball and he didn't perform too well, .304/.637. I don't know anything about park or league effects for the Venzeulian league, but when I saw this kid, I was impressed. He's got some raw tools and plays the field quite well. He's another to keep an eye on

I must admit my bias here. My wife and I went, along with my mother in law to see the Swing in Beloit and got a chance before the game to talk to all of the guys. There is no tunnels in Beloit and the players have to walk through the crowd, or lack thereof, to get to the field. All of them: Mark Hamilton, Chris Perez, John Jay, Bryan Anderson, etc. were great guys and signed autographs for us, chatted, and were so accomodating. I think I might have been the first person to ask John Jay for an autograph; he was amazed by an offical MLB ball.

So, I'm rooting for all these guys. While our system would be middle of the pack to lower eschelon, this still the best minor league class we've had in a really, really long time.

by Brock20 on Jan 21, 2007 10:41 AM EST reply actions

Jose Martinez

What position does Jose Martinez play?

by Nicodemus on Jan 21, 2007 6:35 PM EST up reply actions

SS/2B

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 6:45 PM EST up reply actions

Don't look at Anderson's PECOTA....

his age is wrong. Thanks Get Up Baby, for pointing that out on your blog.

by Brock20 on Jan 21, 2007 10:49 AM EST reply actions

Rasmus

Erik,
Any insight as to where Rasmus starts 2007? I'd love to see him in Springfield. I run a magazine here and in our 2007 city-wide preview we called him the Athlete to Watch...assuming he plays here. I'm less worred about a black eye for the mag than I am missing out on a great prospect.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Jan 21, 2007 11:39 AM EST reply actions

no insight

but he was recently quoted at the P-D that his goal is to make AA out of spring training.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

AA sounds about right

Here's hoping both Rasmus and Tyler Greene start in the hitter-friendly Texas League.

I have different reasons for wanting both of the hopeful future St. Louis starters to begin in Springfield.

As everyone already knows, Rasmus is the best prospect we have had in awhile. A year or most of one at AA, a late season promotion to Memphis, AAA next year and then a mid-season call-up to the big squad would be perfect. Nothing works out perfectly, but I can always pray.

As for Greene's case, I followed him at Georgia Tech and was very happy when we drafted him. After rebounding at my home-town (of course now they are Cardinals) Swing of the Q-C, I would think his confidence is back. Now it all depends on who is slated to be the SS at Springfield. Anybody know?

Pujols just did WHAT...

by gforce on Jan 21, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions

Baseball Prospectus...

says that he will start the year in Florida. Often, teams will start their stars in Florida and then send them up to AA when the weather warms up. My guess is that you'll see Colby in May.

by Brock20 on Jan 21, 2007 12:00 PM EST reply actions

Erik--add age and level to list?

It would be nice to see who's 21-22 and who's 25-26...

as well as the last level they played in...

by salvomania on Jan 21, 2007 12:00 PM EST reply actions

I'm wondering about Hawksworth

Pre-injury, this guy's ceiling was unlimited but I've read that since his surgery, his velocity's down a little. So I wonder how high he projects. He could start a few games for the Cards in '07 and has a chance to really break through the rotation in '08. Is this guy's ceiling now seen as a #3? Is that why he's not seen by anyone as our #2 prospect. He's certainly pretty close but I guess his ceiling isn't as high as Ottavino's maybe. It's also my impression that Garcia, though close, probably projects no higher than a #4 or #5. That, too, concerns me about Hawksworth being listed below Garcia on your list, Erik, and on others I've seen.

Great topic for a Sunday. Glad to see you back and glad things are going great!

by chuckb on Jan 21, 2007 1:06 PM EST reply actions

I also noticed

no Lambert! Has this guy really fallen that far? I know he's had control issues but so has McCormick. I expected him lower on the list but not even in the top 15? Isn't there still hope?

by chuckb on Jan 21, 2007 1:08 PM EST reply actions

lambert's not a lost cause

but he's on life support, IMO. i dunno, i just don't see much to like about him

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 21, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions

Great List

I love to talk Cardinals prospects and was happy to see your post. I'd generally agree with your rankings, but would guess they would be different than BA bc of the method to establish who is a "rookie" in 2007. Techninally, I think Tyler Johnson and Josh Kinney still qualify for these lists, so a few comments:

Tyler J in 6-10
Josh K, S. Pomeranz in 12-18.
Chris Lambert in 10-13
I'd drop Jay to the 6-8 range

My sleeper would be Nick Webber. I think he was working on "developing" his repotoire in 2006 and that he has a good chance to be a valuable 8th or 9th inning guy.

I'm also heavily pulling for Rick A! Here's hoping he tears up AAA this year and gets to the show.

Cory Doyne would be in the 15-20 range on my list as well, but we lost him to Baltimore (developed him then lost him, I just don't understand how that can happen)...

Great topic. Thanks.

by Lawless on Jan 21, 2007 2:15 PM EST reply actions

Baeball America's list

I've just received their prospect book in the mail, and here is their top 30:

Rasmus
Jaime Garcia
Perez
Hawksworth
Jay
Anderson

7.Ottavino

McCormick
Kinney (in my view no longer a mere prospect)
Jones
Boggs
Ryan
Hamilton
Lambert
Narveson
Haerther
Greene
Herron
Tyler Johnson (3 Tylers in a row, the last in the Kinney category)
Stavinoha
Hearne
Pham
Furnish
Worrell
Dove
Sillman
Jon Edwards
Shane Robinson
Schumaker
Cazana-Marti

Interestingly, no Pomerantz, Haberer, Norrick, or King and a surprisingly high ranking for the supposedly short-on-stuff Hearne.

by MikeG on Jan 21, 2007 3:00 PM EST reply actions

Wow.

I'm stunned that I have to accuse Baseball America of over-emphasizing stats, but Trey Hearne over Blake King? Wow. ... interesting choice.

I'm really excited to see what Jon Edwards does this year.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 21, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions

Daric Goold

Or however you spell his first name, is BA's Cardinals correspondent now.

by Rob H on Jan 21, 2007 7:40 PM EST up reply actions

Hearne

DanUp, while I share your surprise that King wasn't on the list, I'd take the opposite view on Hearne: I find it amazing that a guy with numbers as good as his -- 2.36 ERA, 1.04 WHIP in 168 minor-league innings -- doesn't get more attention.

I acknowledge, as Mateodh pointed out above, that Hearne's a bit old for his level, but to me that just says he needs to be promoted more aggressively. Assuming he keeps on pitching well, I'd sure like to see what he can do at AA by the second half of this year.

by DCGreg on Jan 22, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions

yeah

I'd probably remove Schumaker before Hearne, but I'm still wary he's another Travis Smith case.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 22, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions

by the way, erik

I'm really enjoying your site.

by DCGreg on Jan 22, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions

Yeah...

hopefully we won't get lost in the hype about refined/low ceiling prospect Clinton and high ceiling/ low experience prospect Obama.

Whoops, wrong Jon Edwards.

My thoughts on Hearne. First off, 21st in a weak system is by no means a good ranking. Pretty much, that amounts to being an average prospect at best. The 21 number is as much a benefit of being in a very weak system as it is having skills.

Baseball America's book? How does it compare to Sickels and Baseball Prospectus' minor league guides? The others are less expensive and I'm just wondering how much detail goes into the BA book that I might not get in the others.

Thanks,

B20

by Brock20 on Jan 21, 2007 3:59 PM EST reply actions

Baseball America book

More detailed pro and con breakdown analysis of each player, much as it appears in the periodical, except that is limited to the top 10, while the book extens the analysis to the top 30.

by MikeG on Jan 21, 2007 6:35 PM EST up reply actions

Infielders?

It looks like our top prospect list has a single top prospect for 3B/SS/2B, Tyler Greene. Travis Hansen may get back on the list with a rebound year. But that is a really short list.

Are there any other guys out there that project to these positions, or who are under the radar, sleeper-types at any of these positions.

Or is this a huge void that needs to be addressed soon? We are deepest with pitching prospects, then with outfielders. Catching looks pretty good, too. First base is pretty much Mark Hamilton, but with Albert, that is enough.

The first round in 2007 would be a good time to grab a primo SS/3B prospect; and middle infielders should be a priority in the middle rounds, too.

by Nicodemus on Jan 21, 2007 6:47 PM EST reply actions

Couldn't agree more, Nico

I've been harping on this quite a lot lately. I think that may be the position the Cardinals really need to look at trying to fill long term next. I say this, however, being sure that the organization is going to extend David Eckstein, and probably doesn't consider shortstop a priority at all.

Great post, by the way, Erik. My only issue with your list would be the absence of Troy Cate. I know he's a little bit older, but the sheer weight of his ridiculous whip numbers (.70) is enough to get me on the bandwagon.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2007 7:12 PM EST up reply actions