Game 151 Open Thread: September 21, 2006

carpenter pettitte
15-6, 2.79 13-13, 4.37
hey, it's the 1st day of autumn. i love autumn -- but summer's always too short. . . . .
a few days ago my compadre jim mclennan, who writes for SB Nation brother site AZ Snake Pit, invited me to do a joint post about the two major contenders for the nl cy young award --- az's webb vs stl's carpenter. since both guys are pitching tonight (webb faces the padres and woody williams), we decided to run the posts this afternoon. so here we go: jim's post first, then mine.
jim's brief for brandon webb
Chris Carpenter is a good starting pitcher: no question there, any team would love to have him. But the NL's best? No. Even putting home-team bias aside, I believe Webb is the superior arm: Carpenter's statistics are skewed by a combination of factors, including his home ballpark and woeful quality of opposition.
Yes, Carpenter's ERA is marginally better. But he has pitched fewer innings, and as Webb gets an extra start down the stretch, that gap will likely widen. This must be taken into account (otherwise, this year's winner is Matt Smith of the Phillies: 6.1 IP, 0 ER). On a per-start basis, Webb has lasted longer, going deeper into games than Carpenter; with each man having 30 outings, he has more complete games and quality starts than Carpenter. We should also note that in defense-independent ERA, Webb is ahead, 3.29 to 3.40. Simply put, he's been less "lucky" than Carpenter, as far as what happens when hitters put balls in play: give them the same players behind them, and Webb is superior.
Another huge difference is the parks in which they pitch half their games. In 2006, Chase Field has been insanely hitter-friendly. It has the 3rd-highest park factor in baseball; Busch Stadium, in contrast, ranks 24th. And Carpenter is truly a "Busch baby". Away from home, he struggles: ERA *triples*, from 1.46 to 4.52, with no complete games, and only 5 quality starts out of 14 on the road. In contrast, Webb's road ERA is a very respectable 3.35, more than a run better.
Then there's the quality of the opponents each has faced. The NL Central is the worst division in baseball this year: only St. Louis is above .500, and overall, the division is 64 games below. Going 5-1 with a 1.77 ERA in eight games against the Cubs and Pirates - the worst teams in the league - pads Carpenter's statistics significantly, and proves very little. Amazingly, only *two* of his thirty starts have been against teams with a record currently better than .500*, and he got whacked around for eleven earned runs in twelve innings by them. In contrast, Thursday's start will be the twelfth time Webb has pitched against .500-plus opposition this year.
Despite this, Webb still has more wins than Carpenter: yes, a meaningless statistic, but pitching is all about keeping the opposition down, and giving your team the opportunity to win. No pitcher has been better than Brandon Webb at that this year, and combined with the factors discussed above, that's why he's the most worthy winner of the 2006 National League Cy Young award. Webb was already the victim of one robbery, when the 2004 Rookie of the Year went to Dontrelle Willis; hopefully, this year he'll get his just rewards and be acknowledged as the best, rather than someone who's, at best, average on the road, and hasn't proved his mettle against decent teams.
larry's brief for chris carpenter
there remain only two serious candidates for the nl cy young award: carpenter and webb. it's a pretty close call, and either one would make a deserving honoree. but if the award is supposed to honor the league's "best" pitcher then carpenter should get it, for this reason: he's demonstrably the nl's "best" by a broad range of yardsticks. here are the categories in which carpenter and webb rank 1st among all nl pitchers:
that's 13.5 bests for carpenter, 3.5 for webb (they're tied for the lead in shutouts). note how disparate are the measurements by which carpenter outdoes all comers. doesn't matter whether you judge via raw stats (era, whip, shutouts, opp OPS, etc etc), advanced sabermetrics (VORP, win shares, SNLVAR), or gadgety tools (avg game score, pitching runs created) --- carpenter keeps coming out at the top of the heap. last season, when he won the cy in a much tougher field, carpenter didn't lead the league in anything -- he simply excelled across the board, ranking near the top in all the important categories. he has improved upon that broad-based superiority this season, hogging the lead on so many lists that there aren't many left for his competitors to fight over.
moreover, in nearly every category where neither webb nor carpenter leads the league, carpenter ranks ahead of webb. in strikeouts, carpenter's 7th in the league (173), webb 13th (163); in k/bb ratio, carp ranks 2d (4.22), webb 7th (3.47); in opponents' batting average, carpenter is 4th (.226), webb 11th (.248).
admittedly, carp and webb are close enough in a lot of these categories that the balance could shift over the last two or three starts. webb has a very real chance of catching or overtaking carpenter in perhaps half a dozen categories; if he does, his case for the award will improve substantially. but by the same token, carpenter might well flag down webb in all three of the categories in which webb holds an outright advantage (wins, cg, and FIP), which would seem to erase any doubt.
if carpenter's candidacy has a weakness, it's the home-road split jim alluded to. but once you start parsing data, all sorts of interpretations become possible. the split that jumps out at me is not the home-road but rather the month-by-month:
| carp | month | webb |
|---|---|---|
| 1.80 | apr | 2.22 |
| 3.96 | may | 1.80 |
| 3.27 | jun | 5.08 |
| 3.12 | jul | 2.45 |
| 3.08 | aug | 5.01 |
| 1.78 | sep | 2.13 |
whereas carpenter has been consistently good, webb has been periodically shaky -- and his cold spells have hurt his team. in june the dbacks lost all 5 of webb's starts as they tumbled from first to last in the nl west. in august, when webb again faltered, the dbacks fell from 1 game back in both the divisional and wild-card races to complete noncontention. webb pitched his worst games when his team needed him most.
carpenter has done just the opposite, singlehandedly holding the disintegrating cardinal rotation together -- the very definition of an ace pitcher. nothing speaks to that quality more than carpenter's mlb-leading total in (pitchers only) win expectancy added: he has contributed to team wins more profusely than any pitcher in baseball. for that alone, he merits strong consideration for the award; the rest of carpenter's bests merely confirm his place at the head of the class.
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Great breakdown lboros...
Nice job!
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 6:22 PM EDT reply actions
I often experience that here
Thanks a lot Larry...
And great post by the way... :-D
me too
Anyway, nice post, LB - I like Carp's chances more than ever.
Nice job lboros
I don't know
by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 21, 2006 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Webb
by levistahl on Sep 21, 2006 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Carp
Carp has to be the winner. I don't know the stats, but I'd be very surprised if Webb had eight no decisions where he gave up one run or less. And I think your point about what kind of a staff ace Carp has been (a true stopper) is very valid, Larry. Love the work. Thanks.
by Pokey Joe on Sep 21, 2006 6:22 PM EDT reply actions
Shouldn't a franchise pitcher
Nice breakdown, man
One thing that was nice, though, was some capitalization.
sorry
I couldn't help but laugh at how ugly it was.
They actually have one for almost every team though. I think some of the other ones actually manage to look worse (like Detroit's).
maybe I was just in a bad mood
by dontEATnachos on Sep 21, 2006 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That'd do it
After reading the argument for Webb...
lineups for tonight...
Wilson, RF
Spezio, LF
Pujols, 1B
Encarnacion, CF
Rolen, 3B
Belliard, 2B
Molina, C
Miles, SS
Carpenter, P
HOU:
Biggio, 2B
Lamb, 3B
Berkman, 1B
Scott, LF
Huff, RF
Burke, CF
Everett, SS
Ausmus, C
Pettite, P
Me likey this line up
I'm betting that the announcers will say Crawford Boxes this many times:
Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes
And by the end of the night I will want to die.
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
We have struggled mightily against Pettite
First time
no
by dontEATnachos on Sep 21, 2006 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
For all intents and purposes
Looking good, Carp...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 8:22 PM EDT reply actions
Great hitting.
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
He can pitch AND hit!
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 8:39 PM EDT reply actions
SPEEZ!
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 8:41 PM EDT reply actions
Well Juan...
You just have to accept that Juan is
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
shoulda been e1
ummm
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
did miles just lay down a sacrifice
by jojo5492 on Sep 21, 2006 9:01 PM EDT reply actions
he must have
I hate that load Berkman
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:08 PM EDT reply actions
MLBTV
my credibility as a fan is dwindling
by elhombrestlcards05 on Sep 21, 2006 9:09 PM EDT reply actions
Mine has been down for a couple of days...
by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
fucking Berkman
Fat Elvis
Carp recovers nicely, though.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:09 PM EDT reply actions
Wasn't a cheapie though...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 9:10 PM EDT reply actions
C'mon, Albert
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:15 PM EDT reply actions
injury delay...
by martin on Sep 21, 2006 9:17 PM EDT reply actions
Pettitte
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Inches...
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:18 PM EDT reply actions
speizio
Take that bitches!!!!!!!!
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:18 PM EDT reply actions
HA
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
how about
belated
Larry, I'd add one more set of numbers to your case. Before tonight's game, Webb had allowed 9 unearned runs, Carp only 5. Adding those runs to their ERAs to get their RAs:
Webb: 3.29
Carp: 3.01
Juan'cion
Not good.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:22 PM EDT reply actions
I'm listening on xm radio..
he is awful
He's been done since before he...
by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Q about XM
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you get the home team broadcast
Izzy
It went well from the standpoint that they did not find it so bad that they'd have to "cap" the ball in the hip ... if they had to do that, he'd be done... but they were able to clean it up in a way that will allow him to try to pitch next season.
--B
-------
Not totally clear whether they had to shave off some of the bone -- that, I gather, would likely determine whether he'd be ready at the start of the season or sometime later. Anyone got any more info?
Carp
Good lord Carp...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions
Eh. Carp. :(
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions
$99.99
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:34 PM EDT reply actions
that's 2
Biggio needed 80 hits...
by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 9:35 PM EDT reply actions
This is why we need home-field advantage.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:37 PM EDT reply actions
could carp look much worse tonight?
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 9:45 PM EDT reply actions
ask and ye shall receive
- 5.79 (14 IP) (pre-tonight)
- 1.13 (24 IP)
2004: 0.00 (8 IP)
So it's a new phenomenon.
berkman is a beast...
I'm sure houston fans say the same about Pujols.
Yep...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Carp screaming profanity
by sgfcards on Sep 21, 2006 9:48 PM EDT reply actions
I heard it too!
LOL!
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
can anyone put it on youtube?
Just wanted to chime in
It stunk. The end.
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 9:49 PM EDT reply actions
c'mon Al
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:52 PM EDT reply actions
Can anyone tell me.......
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:54 PM EDT reply actions
Carp out for the 7th?
If he gets through the 7th under 92 pitches....
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
if we can hold the lead
I'm not disagreeing with you, but
Of course, knowing TLR's penchant for using vets, I'd say that's a pretty good bet.
Nice inning, Carp!
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:59 PM EDT reply actions
nice inning
7 ip and 89 pitches thrown
Good test for Adam...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:05 PM EDT reply actions
the phils
They better enjoy it now
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems like Carp has had some pretty
i'd rather see the bullpen right now...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:07 PM EDT reply actions
who's warming?
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:07 PM EDT reply actions
Flores is up!
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:08 PM EDT reply actions
Or rather
<ducks and covers>
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone else
I'm pretty sure that Papi
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
They should actually put
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget about Clemens
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
this game just doesnt feel good.
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT reply actions
Oh my!
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
Walk him walk him walk him
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
Guhhhh.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
Walk him walk him walk him
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:12 PM EDT reply actions
OK or K him
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT reply actions
I hate this team...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT reply actions
Why not?
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Berkman
He shoulda seen the end of that inning from first base.
by levistahl on Sep 21, 2006 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
wtf
No more cy young...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions
there's yer game.
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions
Ugh. Ugh. That feels like....
Why in the hell didn't we walk him?
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions
crap on a crap cracker
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions
WTF!!!!!
by Big Red on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions
And Scott pops out
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT reply actions
Well
Tony! What does it take?!
Unbelievable!
Wow
ABSTL.....
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:17 PM EDT reply actions
Uh...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
i was too.......just wondering if someone knew
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
where's the lefty?
Damn
by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:18 PM EDT reply actions
If we don't melt down and pull a 64 phillies...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
They're not taking any chances with Lidge
Aauuugh, that hurts. I hate Berkman. I really, really do.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:18 PM EDT reply actions
Gah
He goes cutter off the plate in, cutter in ball, cutter in strike. Set up perfectly for the next 2 seamer<---GREAT pitch. Misses with cutter in, then Twinkle Toes fouls off curve. Set up beautifully for another 2 seamer running back over the plate...instead cutter deposited into the seats.
Showed it to him 4 times in the at-bat prior to 3-2, he's not going to get himself out on it. Had to come either 2 or 4 low and away (but can't because of the fucking Crawford boxes, pardon my French...the stadium still screws us) or 2 seam running back over the plate.
Dumb dumb dumb.
how many
I'm going to cry.
This one hurts like hell.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:23 PM EDT reply actions
They beat our best pitcher...
we had a lefty
fuck me!
Thank you Tony "I'm a F'in Genius Just....
by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 10:26 PM EDT reply actions
It's gonna take me a while to recover
G'night, y'all....
Poor Carp. Poor team. Poor us. No. Reason. To. Pitch To. Fat Elvis. There.
And sadly, it already doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:27 PM EDT reply actions
I hate
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:28 PM EDT reply actions
unlike most
But i cannot understand or justify pitching to berkman there. Carp's responsible too b/c he's got to know not to lay a fat one over the plate in that situation. But Tony had to know that Carp was tiring. We needed 1 out, not 3. Berkman already had a double and a homer off of Carp, was seeing the ball really well. There is no explanation -- the one about not putting the go ahead run on base -- b.s. the go ahead run was already in scoring position b/c he was in the batter's box! the astros would've been stupid to pitch to pujols in that situation and we were stupid to pitch to berkman there. no excuse, bad managing, bad pitching!
Wheew...a hilarious premiere of the Office later
THERE IS HOPE!
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 11:12 PM EDT reply actions



















