Luna for Belliard open thread

six of one, half dozen of the other

Luna's fielding and hitting stats look to me almost identical to Belliard's, adjusting for ABs/innings. Statistically, I don't see the big gain. I haven't seen Belliard play, so I hope that there is something beyond the statistics to be excited about. Sigh.

Why weren't we more serious about a 2B in the off season? Oh yeah, we weren't allowed to pay more than $2M. I assume that Luna will be relatively cheap for a few years (even with some arbitration). Belliard will be a free agent, if the reports are right. Is there anyway we resign him under $2M? Sigh.

On the bright side, I believe Belliard is an upgrade over Miles. Now please tell me Belliard is an upgrade over Luna.

by ncgostl on Jul 30, 2006 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The 2 million dollar cap...

for a second basemen was not true. It has been denied by everyone in the organization. Please, people, quit posting this as a fact.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if the company line

is that the cap didn't exist . . . . doesn't that make it more likely than ever that it did?

by lboros on Jul 30, 2006 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry Larry...

but most of the posters are projecting this as fact when it is not. I doubt if Chase Utley were available for 3 million a year, they would turn it down. They probably just did a study that said most second basemen aren't worth more than 2 million dollars. It wasn't a hard rule but a guidline. Most people on hear make it sound like the Cardinals were only doing it to be cheap. While I think the Cardinals sometimes do come off cheap, what they are trying to do is be prudent. I'd rather they be on the safe side (and go after the guys like Rolen/Pujols/Carpenter/Edmonds types). I must admit, I seem to be in the minority on this board though.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

spell check...

would have been nice on that previous post...

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

value on the dollar

Given this "guideline" ("They probably just did a study that said most second basemen aren't worth more than 2 million dollars"), let me reiterate: Luna's production will be more than worth his low costs over the next few years. If the organization wanted good value at a low cost at 2B, they should have kept Luna.

by ncgostl on Jul 30, 2006 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that $2m cap on the cards' 2b position

was reported by ken rosenthal, quoting sources. it also was cited on the record by grudk's agent after the deal fell through.

it wasn't just a rumor that some kooks on the internet made up so they'd have something to gripe about. some credible people are/were saying it's a fact.

in fact, the only evidence to the contrary that you can cite comes from inside the organization --- and those people might have, um, motives to pretend the $2m cap didn't really exist.

did the cap exist? i'm more persuaded by those who say it did than by those who say it didn't. the club's lack of interest in freely available high-priced 2bmen like loretta luis vizcaino and even grud'k does not support the notion that they were willing to flex beyond $2m.

by the way, i thought they were correct to pass on grud'k. i'd have preferred loretta or vizcaino to the cheap platoon, but i preferred the cheap platoon to grudz'k. this trade essentially reverses course; they're breaking up the cheap platoon for a guy of grudk's ability. they should've stuck to their guns.

by lboros on Jul 30, 2006 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Assumptions...

Lorretta wasn't a free agent, he was a trade. We don't even know if the Padres contacted the Cardinals, maybe they were REALLY looking for that backup catcher (of which we don't have). Yes, it was a stupid trade, and yes the Cardinals could've/should've offered more if he was available, but I bet a LOT of teams would have offered more. Sometimes you don't get the lucky trade that falls out of the sky.

As far as the cap, it's just to ridiculous to be true. Seriously, you didn't answer my question about Utley. If an "Impact" second basemen was available on the free agent market, I have my doubts that Jocketty's hands would have been tied. The organization has shown to much trust in Jocketty in the past to tell him he can't spend a certain amount on a position. That's just not their MO. It's more likely Jocketty had some study's done (probably by Asst. GM John Moz..) and decided it wasn't worth it.

Rosenthal may have GOTTEN his info from Grudz's agent, and it's not like Grudz's agent couldn't have floated that rumor for his client. Again, all I am saying is that IT IS NOT FACT. A rumor from a great source (like Rosenthall) IS still just a rumor. A rumor that doesn't make sense AND is denied by the organization just seems to be false to me.

Doesn't this sound logical?

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i find it believable

that they imposed a $2m cap on that position. based on what we've heard, i think it's more likely true than not. the only evidence against it are the organization's own self-serving statements --- which frankly aren't worth much.

i didn't answer the chase utley question because the scenario you've outlined is not realistic. if a guy were an "impact" free agent, he wouldn't be available for $3m a year. the cards might authorize jock to bid $3m a year on such a player . . . . . but the market for said player would be $6m a year or more.

again, it's all academic. jocketty made the right call --- he economized at 2b and got reasonable production out of his minimum-wage platoon. i don't understand why he's changing course here; the upgrade involved doesn't seem worth the cost of the move . . . .

by lboros on Jul 31, 2006 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I know this point is kind of moot right now, but I remember reading that article over the offseason and it made a lot of sense. It was definitely believable and made a lot of sense for what the organization was trying to accomplish. After all, if it wasn't true, we'd probably still have Grudz.

Regarding Ronnie - Living in Chicago, I have several White Sox friends. They are apparently VERY HAPPY that we got Belliard out of their division. Apparently he's always been scary against them. So if that means anything, maybe he's "an AL central killer." And with that, maybe Walt is already thinking about the World Series? Heh.

by aet15 on Jul 31, 2006 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

What in the owner's past would make you believe they would tie Jocketty's hands on a certain position? Do we have proof they have done this before? I still have not seen any statement on why they would limit Jocketty on a certain position. If anything JOCKETTY would have limited his own spending on the said position because he only had x amount of dollars to spend. This question STILL hasn't been answered. Even if you believe this to be the case, my whole argument is that it is not FACT, which it has been going for on this message board. This is indisputable.

Also, the information being put out by the agent was that the ORGANIZATION was limiting payroll on second base, NOT the ownership. The facts seem to be getting fuzzy on this.

As far as my scenerio not being realistic, you are correct. Saying that, I would not have "realistically" figured we could have had Loretta for a bag of baseballs in the off-season. You can't kill Jocketty for not making that trade, when nobody in their right mind thought that it was an option.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 31, 2006 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Touche

I tend to think this is an upgrade from the standpoint it was clear Luna wasn't going to ever be the regular 2B this season (or next season, in all liklihood) and the fact Miles will be replaced at 2B (although his trade for King was worth it just for the Houston series just before the break). Unfortunately, the backup SS position has taken a big hit. I'll venture to guess that Miles may have the worst range in all of MLB at SS. All-in-all, I view this trade as having to pay the price for an overall poor performance by Walt in the off-season. I've not been a whiner about waving bye-bye to Grudz all year, but to me, it obvious he would have been money well spent, the Cards would have been a better overall team from the start had they kept him and the consistency of the double-play combo he and Eckstein had formed. And, we'd have a better player coming off the bench in Luna. So while I do think it's an upgrade, the trade doesn't excite me much.

Baily

by Baily on Jul 30, 2006 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm happy with the trade...

I realize Belliard is not a significant upgrade over Luna, but lets face it, Luna was NOT going to be the everyday 2b as long as TLR is at the helm. I'd imagine Belliard will now be our everday second baseman and he is a considerable improvement over Aaron Miles.

Think Walt has any more moves in progress? or is this it?

That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 30, 2006 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

belliard will be an upgrade

over the 2b position as an everyday player. BUt how can you rationalize this trade by saying that this is ok and not say it is horrible that TLR never gave luna his legit shot???

by Dave0585 on Jul 30, 2006 7:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Luna...

I do agree it's terrible that Luna was never given a fair shot, but their isn't much we can do about now (or then). I really hope Luna excels in Cleveland and proves to Tony that he was a great player who deserved more time.

That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 30, 2006 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Has the legend of Walt

taken yet another hit?

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 7:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This had to be

a TLR-driven trade. For whatever reason Tony wasn't going to ever give Luna a proper chance (though in today's paper he says Hector can be "a special player" -- WTF?). Maybe Hector strangles puppies in his free time or something.

Oh well, at worst it's a lateral move, though we have a shot at losing Belliard at the end of the season. So who will we recycle next year?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2006 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a good deal

Walt looks worse with every move. This is a horrible move considering the fact that ownership will not spend what it takes to win. We just gave up a solid young (cheap) hitter for two months of Belliard. No way Belliard will stay for the money ownership will offer. Remember that secondbasemen should only cost 1-2 million on a championship caliber club.

by deanj on Jul 30, 2006 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony has always said he's a special player BUT

it just got to be obvious to me that Luna wasn't gonna cut it at 2nd base. I dunno if his head isn't always in the game or what.

by sdrone on Jul 30, 2006 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

give him the chance to start

on a regular basis and I think you would have seen improvement. He never was allowed to settle in at a positino and while that's not the strongest of arguments, I wonder why Duncan gets to make his flubs in LF but Luna isn't entitled to his at 2b.

by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2006 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To add to that comment

Luna was quite valueable on the bench too. He could play several positions and had a decent bat. Now Miles has to fill that role and, unlike with Luna, Miles probably has no future in St. Louis. On the other hand, even if Luna had never developed into a solid 2nd baseman, he still probably would have been valueable off the bench for a few years.

by rob is back on Jul 30, 2006 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Walt gets

those who fit the predilications of Tony and the staff. It was painfully obvious he wasn't going to start Luna, so he went out and got a veteran version of Luna to fit Tony's tastes.

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jul 30, 2006 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so walter has to serve

an irrational mgr, on the one hand, and a penny-pinching owner, on the other.

he does an amazing job. this is not a good trade, but it's not really walt's fault . . . . .

by lboros on Jul 30, 2006 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not to mention...

... unreasonably expectant fans.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unreasonable?

Being less than thrilled with lip-service moves is being unreasonable?

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jul 30, 2006 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not "unreasonable"...

... "unreasonably expectant." i don't like this move for Belliard, esp. since Walt is going to consider this an "impact move."

but the simple fact is that there aren't any really great moves to make. we can't afford to spend what the Yanks can for guys like Abreu/Lidle (plus they gave 4 prospects... 3 guys under 20). Willis/Cabrera aren't available, certainly without giving up both Reyes and Wainwright. i doubt Schmidt is available for any price with the Giants still in the race.

in fact, no "impact" player is available without giving up at least one of those guys. and we simply can't do it. perhaps Walt has another Walker-special coming, but i just don't see it.

we might marginally upgrade our bullpen, but that's hardly going to fix this team. i wouldn't bother picking up another junk starter... we've got enough.

our best hope is that Mulder returns in very good form, either Suppan/Marquis/Reyes/Weaver pitches well enough to be a decent 3rd option, and the other is serviceable.

we've got a better offense now than Houston had last year (even if it isn't as good as our own from a year ago). crazy things happen in the playoffs sometimes. i'm afraid we'll just have to be the lucky, undeserving underdogs this year if we're going to go deep.

but i really don't know what Walt could've done with the resources that he has.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Semantics

But I think we're on the same page. I'm not saying he could have done better given the situation, but I don't think I'm being "unreasonably expectant" by not gleefully swallowing the crap that TLR and Co. are feeding us about them giving Luna a chance and Belliard "giving us a chance to win" or whatever.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jul 31, 2006 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True

And it won't be Walt's fault this winter when Belliard walks because the owners won't pay that much for a 2nd baseman...

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say

walt does an amazing job, and the owners arent exactly penny pinchers either. walt still has more money to work with than most other GMs. and also, if the cards hadn't completely lucked into drafting pujols, this would be a completely different team.

by PGeorge on Jul 30, 2006 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's a very minor upgrade.....

not a move worth making.

by stanchar on Jul 30, 2006 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Very very minor

The small upgrade for two months is not worth giving up Luna. I'll even be surprised if Belliard plays everyday given Tony's love for Miles.

by deanj on Jul 30, 2006 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That.......

I disagree with. You may have written that "tongue-in-cheek" perhaps--I don't know. Rest assured, Belliard is the man here on out.

by stanchar on Jul 30, 2006 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

Over at Let's Go Tribe it seems like no one likes the deal. I guess that is good for us right? Maybe Belliard can be improvement. Who knows?

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 30, 2006 8:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

to them...

... Luna is a back-up guy that the Tribe let go twice.

to us, he's a decent prospect who never got a chance to demonstrate his potential.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hopefully they release him a 3rd time...

....and we can bring him back again.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2006 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Both sides seems unhappy.

Looks like niether side is too thrilled with this deal. It's a shame that this is the deal we get to discuss at the deadline. Come on Walt, surprise us with some magic tomorrow.

by deanj on Jul 30, 2006 8:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Will the new guy

cover freaking second base when Rolen tries to get the lead runner?

by sdrone on Jul 30, 2006 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Excellent...

...Belliard will, with a gangta lean.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2006 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shawn Green.

Personally, I really like the idea of Green. He's a veteran who is hitting well for average this year. Plus, for those who've followed the guy, or baseball for awhile, know that he's perfectly capable of going on a power surge.

I think if we had gotten Mota, this trade would have been a lot better for us.

by aet15 on Jul 30, 2006 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I believe I heard

that if we get Green it would likely be after the trade deadline.

by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2006 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Duncan is the LF...

...I mean, what more can we ask? In the 9th inning at Wrigley, facing a sweep with 2 outs, he rips a freaking triple that with the wind blowing out could have been a HR.

Even the Cubs idiots said 'this guy could be a special ballplayer'.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2006 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

As long as it happens eventually . . .

It'd be nice to trade one of our soon to be free agent starters for him and guarantee Reyes a spot. Since he's going to be a starter next year, it's not too early to guarantee him a spot.

by aet15 on Jul 30, 2006 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Luna, JRod, Kid Reyes, Wainwright

I'm a TLR supporter but I'm starting to get pissed. We've had some very promising (and cheap) young players that have not been allowed a chance to prove themselves and I don't understand why...

Luna loses out to Miles...
Jrod to Taguchi/Encarnacion...
Reyes, Wainwright to Ponson, Weaver...

I don't like this trend. btw how much have we spend on 2b now??? I'd guess more than 2 million. If we had just stuck with Grudz in the first place, we wouldn't be reelegated to lateral 2b moves and could upgrade our starting rotation/bullpen/left field.

I think it's ridiculous that this is the move that is supposed to get us down the stretch. I hope that the front office decides to start playing productive players and not just ones that are favored.

Ronnie Belliard is not the difference between the Cardinals and the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Twins, Tigers, etc. Walt had best have another move in store because this one is less than inspiring.

by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2006 8:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Giving young players a chance

It's pissing me off also. The only reason why I'm not completely disappointed in this trade is because Billiard will be better then Miles. Even though Luna was a defensive liability, he was still learning, as TLR rightly noted, and he probably would've become better with experience. Receiving the older, more expensive version of the same player just doesn't cut it.

I hope they learned a lesson on being too frugile this past off-season. Grudz may have been asking for too much, but in hindsight, it's hard to say that it wouldn't have been worth it. And while Burnett hasn't exactly lived up to expectations, he still gives Toronto what we're now desperately seeking from our rotation; a chance to win every time he steps on the mound. Those small off-season savings are haunting our prospect of a successful post-season.

by rob is back on Jul 30, 2006 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great point!

on Walt now spending more than $2 mill on a 2b. You're spot on that we could've had Grudz for maybe $3 mill each year for 2 and now we've spent probably the same amount for the parade we've tried to run out there so far.

I think Walt will take a different approach this offseason.

by chuckb on Jul 30, 2006 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Luna Doesn't Have It Mentally

I don't mind seeing Luna gone. He was a decent hitter, but I didn't trust him mentally. He often made errors that seemed more to do with concentration than with ability. I suspect TLR never trusted him completely because he sensed this as well.

Belliard's an offensive upgrade for the team. Basically, it gives us Grudz back.

If we obtain help in the 'pen, and switched Wainwright into the rotation, I'd be content to let this team have a run at beating the Mets to get into the Series.

It's hard to see this as a champion quality team, though. We can't even beat the stupid Flubs.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jul 30, 2006 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's hoping

Walt can get something good for Marquis tomorrow

by jdonels on Jul 30, 2006 8:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Walt's comments on Luna

"[Luna was] a guy we had control of, and he's a guy that we hoped would step in and play second base this year," Jocketty said. "But he didn't develop into that, so we felt we had to try to upgrade."

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 8:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Don't like it don't like it don't like it.

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb. $350k locked in for years for a free agent to be making 12 times as much: simple answer was to send Miles to AAA.

by SirVLCIV on Jul 30, 2006 8:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Marti up to replace Jrod?

Any chance of this happening?

That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 30, 2006 8:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

umm probably not

I'd think that if J-Rod is out our old buddy Skip Schumaker will probably get another cup of coffee. Marti despite being 31 needs more time to prove himself in the minors before he is exposed to MLB. Ironically this could have been Larry Bigbie's 2nd chance if he hadn't had more problems because he would be close to coming back. Its a shame.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 30, 2006 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about Marti up to replace Taguchi?

In his limited opportunities, Rodriguez has been hitting the ball very well since the all-star break (1.087 OPS), while Taguchi has been awful. And this doesn't include his 453ft bomb in MMP right before the break.

I really like Taguchi in CF, but he's only hitting .130 since the all-star break and Encarnacion should be okay in CF. I doubt that Marti is ready yet anyhow, so it probably doesn't matter.

by rob is back on Jul 30, 2006 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, Taguchi is healthy

and JRod is not. Seems like it would be prudent to replace JRod instead.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2006 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

JRod isn't healthy?

I thought he'd recovered from his shoulder problems?

Are you sure about that?

by rob is back on Jul 30, 2006 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Messed up his ankle

sliding into 2nd base today. I'm not sure how bad it is. He was helped off the field.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 30, 2006 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well..., crap

I didn't know that. I missed the game today and meant to watch the MLB.TV archive when I got home, but despite trying to avoid seeing the final score while starting up MLB.TV Mosaic, it was posted right above the video window (just one less reason for subscribing to MLB.TV for me.) And I'm one of those who can't watch a game or movie when the ending isn't in doubt, so I skipped it.

Hope J-Rod's okay, though.

by rob is back on Jul 30, 2006 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Timo Time

I forgot about Timo looks like we might have to watch him in the OF for a couple weeks if J-Rod is out.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 30, 2006 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

another problem:

this means that in '07 we'll have to get a SS and a 2B from the free-agent pool. Luna could've filled one of those holes capably and cheaply. considering that we have no other middle infield prospects within 2-3 years of the bigs, any knowing TLR/Jock's willingness to tinker with "projects" in these positions, it could be a rough couple of years.

the more i think about this, the more i don't like it.

and what've we spent so far on 2B? Luna, Cruz, Spivey, Miles, and Belliard have surely added up to more than the 3 million that we wouldn't pay Grudz, whom we could've resigned and kept Luna.

i don't like the decision-making. here's hoping Jock pulls something crazy out of his ass.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 9:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

why do we need a SS?

Eck is under contract for 2007 and would probably resign here anyways as he seems to like it here.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 30, 2006 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i meant after '07...

... sorry.

but Eck is not the kind of player that will age well, i don't think. he doesn't have the raw ability to overcome the lack of speed and reaction time that comes with age. i'm not sure i'd want him past '07. i mean, he's alright for now, and for the money we're paying him, but Luna has better numbers than him. i love Eck, but he's not that great.

and with nothing in the farm, we've just left ourselves with no flexibility and no options. it just doesn't make sense to me.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2b

There are quite a few 2b whose contracts are up at the end of the season and will be free agents. I don't think it'll be near as difficult for Walt to find someone he can sign for 2-3 years from this group.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2000/04/possible-free-agents.html

by chuckb on Jul 30, 2006 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Luna

At least Luna was under the Cards' control for the next several years! They seem about like the same player. The major benefit, as I see it, is that LaRussa will have the confidence in Belliard to put him out there every day. The gain is Belliard over Miles, since Luna wasn't playing anyway.

To me it is also a signal that Walt does not intend to try and find a 2b at the scrap heap this offseason. Maybe the fact that Belliard is a free agent is a benefit in that it allows us to go get a real, everyday 2b. Sound like Pollyanna?

by chuckb on Jul 30, 2006 9:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Say what!?

"He's a good offensive player and he's a good defensive player," said general manager Walt Jocketty. "Right now he was the best offensive player we felt we could acquire."

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jul 30, 2006 9:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

By saying

best offesive player, instead of just player, does it mean that they must be going after a pitcher?

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jul 30, 2006 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

soriano, wilkerson, dellucci,

gonzo, nixon, mo pena, tejeda, green, etc.

there are better offensive players available. and some of them play outfield.

that said, they might not be available to us - or maybe DeWitt/Jock was unwilling to pay the price - but there are certainly other guys available.

and that statement makes it sound like he's done dealing. that's not good.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Read that as

"the owners won't pony up the extra cash, or let me trade who I need to in order to obtain the necessary pieces."

by cardsrul on Jul 30, 2006 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OR...

read it as "Everybody else was asking for way to much and I didn't want to give up the farm." Of course it could be because nobody on the Cardinals wants to win. That sounds right...

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

both ways to look at it are right

some think this year is the best chance go all in bet the farm if it means getting the pieces for this year no matter what they cost the future.

Then there are those who think we can keep a playoff caliber team for 5 years or so into the future, so let's keep tweaking and ya never know once you get into the playoffs.

I'd like to know what side everybody's on. Just curious, me... I think let's keep tweaking and keep getting to the playoffs. Look at the Yankees a loaded lineup guarantees a depleted farm and that's it

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jul 30, 2006 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

I'd like to keep tweaking.

But the thing that really agitates me is that I'm not sure which one they prefer, because they don't seem to be doing either one very well.

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm going on record as in favor of rebuilding.

I can live with a couple of years out of the playoffs if we can develop young players in the meantime.

Of course that's a moot point, since I don't think TLR is the right manager for a rebuild project. Until he's fired or retired, we'll muddle along with the "tweak" mode, I'm afraid.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 31, 2006 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BoSox...

... said to be looking for another SP. apparently they don't trust Wells and Clement to be the answer. imagine that.

apparently, they are willing to dump nixon or willy mo pena. they took suppan once before... think they'll do it again?

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 9:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This can't be it...

2nd base was probably 4th on my list of needs for the cards behind #2 starter, LF, and relief help. I realize the starter wasn't do-able but I would assume a LF or some relief help could/should still be addressed. I'm hoping still hoping Walt makes a deal for Jeff Conine or Shawn Green and Rheal Cormier, Tom Gordon, and/or Salomon Torres (or someone else in the 'pen.) Belliard really does nothing in terms of improving the teams outlook for 2006 we could have made the playoffs and possibly won a series with or without him. Seems like a waste to me unless Walt works some other magic.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 30, 2006 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I sort of disagree about 2nd

I've been late to jump on the bandwagon, but we really needed to find a reliable 2nd baseman. With Eckstein hitting poorly as of late, we've had to rely on Miles and his below-league-average OBP to get on base. Rather than trading for Belliard, I would have preferred that Luna played 2nd, even though he was a defensive liability there.

I guess my point is that our outfield players (other than Taguchi) are looking better, while our middle-infield is looking awful thin and we need them to get on base on some.

by rob is back on Jul 30, 2006 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Miklasz items

A few notes from Bernie on his forum:

Belliard adds $1.3 million to the payroll (after deducting Luna's remaining salary).
Jocketty hopes to land a reliever tomorrow.
Talks have ceased (for now, anyway) with Philadelphia over Fultz / Cormier.
Jocketty hopes to add a corner OF after the deadline -- most likely Shawn Green.
Jocketty has room to take on more payroll -- how much remains to be be seen, and he isn't saying.
Miles will be the backup SS. (please excuse me while I go cough up something).

--B

-- Bernie asl

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jul 30, 2006 9:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I love Bernie's

reaction to this whole thing. He sounds like us...

by cardsrul on Jul 30, 2006 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you see this one from Bernie?

From La Russa, discussing today's trade:

La Russa said he thinks Luna can become a "special" player.

"There isn't anybody who's had more confidence in him than our staff," La Russa said. "We've given him playing time. He's responded. I think he has a chance to be a special player and he's still learning."

Yeah, no one had more confidence in Luna more than La Russa and his staff.

That's why Luna played behind Aaron F. Miles this season.

Give me a freaking break...

--B

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eck has seen

his last day off until the end of the season...

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 30, 2006 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The trade.

I still like it. I think Jocketty is working on something else too. The long and short of it is that they just need to play better, and adding a couple of solid players without trading away the future will be a good thing for the club.

by matt reeder on Jul 30, 2006 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

what i dont get

everyone wines about getting retreads, and not signing Grudz who was a cough retread(or journeymen use your words)Yes grudz better than miles, or luna but we did get rid of fat boy king in that trade.

I liked luna as a utility guy but after this series to me it was clear they needed an everyday 2b maybe thats why luna got the starts this weekend and IMO didnt do that well D wise..very slow with the turn soemtimes on a routine play. I will miss luna more for the occasional OF spot..but Im guessing the indians didnt want SO.

also if they do get green these are pretty decent moves. Not earth shattering, but beliard is good better than his stats may say. He has big play potential and is much better D wise form what I have seen. If they add Green it looks good now the pithcing has to come around

by punchinjudy on Jul 30, 2006 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Grudz hit over .300 the two years pevious to

joining STL. Hardly a retread. He was a solid 2b who wasn't a huge offensive threat but was a high average hitter .700+ OPS kinda guy. He made some fucking spectacular defensive plays when he was here though and that's why I loved him. Sounds silly but he was my favorite player that year. Great D, slapped line drives, gritty...I just thought he was a really solid 2b. I was pissed that we let him go for as cheap as he was. We've now spent the following:

1.3 million for Belliard
1.2 million for Spivey
350K for Miles
= 2.85 million...

wouldn't it have been worth an extra 1.15 million (1.5 when you count keeping Luna as well) for an everyday starter who is batting .286/.328/.403? I think so. We wouldn't have lost so much ABs to Aaron Miles and our defense would have been much much better and we would have had luna until 2010 under our control (or at least retained him as a trading chip for a better trade).

I'm not a fan of this trade but the whole 2b position has me really pissed off this year.

by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2006 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Before we get carried away....

...let's look at what we've got:

Position player wise, 2 months ago, we had 1B, SS, 3B, C, RF, CF locked in. The holes we had were LF and 2B. Duncan's return to the big leagues has been a rousing success. I doubt very much that we could find a better LF on the trade market other than Soriano, and bringing him in made very little sense because we would be renting him and giving up the future (something that has gotten us into this mess).

So, now we needed a 2B. Miles isn't great, but Luna wasn't getting to play. So, we sacraficed bench depth for reliability. Not that Belliard is an upgrade over Luna at 2B (I have yet to see if Belliard knows that standard cut/basecoverage rules) but it gives us a 'TLR-trusted' version of Luna.

Now, we need pitching. We need a starter and some bullpen help. As far as the bullpen, we've done nothing to bolster it. I have no excuse for that.

However, as far as starting pitching, we may be getting a widely regarded top shelf starter after the trade deadline: Mark Mulder. A healthy Mark Mulder is better than 98% of the pitchers you will find out on the trade block. If Mulder is healthy, and it is a gamble, our rotation would look like this:

Carpenter
Mulder
Suppan
Marquis
Reyes

That is better than it looked at the start of the season. In essence, we added a quality arm in either Reyes (if they'd just let him pitch) or Mulder(if he returns healthy).

To get another frontline starter, Walt would have had to make a deal that depleated our farm system or created a hole in LF (giving up Duncan).

Yes, I as much as anyone would have liked to 'load up with All-Stars' and make a run at the World Series. However, I have confidence that a healthy Cardinals team with these lineups/rotations CAN get to the World Series, atleast in the weak NL, as long as the Cubs don't take the Wild Card. :P

Eckstein
Duncan
Pujols
Rolen
Edmonds
Encarnacion
Belliard
Molina
Pitcher

Carpenter
Mulder
Suppan
Marquis
Reyes

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2006 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

No Weaver?

by busch bird on Jul 30, 2006 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Long relief...

...at best.

I don't trust him, even less so than Bipolar Betty.

Look at Marquis' postseason lines compared to that of Weaver's.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2006 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But I thought

Duncan would "fix" him!

by busch bird on Jul 30, 2006 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MY KINGDOM !!!

FOR A PLAYER WHO DOESN'T NEED TWEAKING, FIXING, CORRECTING, RESHAPING, OR MODIFICATION!!!

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I was being sarcastic.

by busch bird on Jul 30, 2006 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know you were

:-)

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good Analysis...

Belliard is a former All-Star though. .750 OPS secondbasemen don't grow on trees and while Luna had decent numbers, he had a small sample size of good numbers (and not so good numbers in the minors). For all LaRussa's foibles, handling bench players is not one of them. He's pretty good at that. I have a feeling a lot of people on this board are fretting for nothing. Good deal.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i don't hear fretting

that is, nobody seems to be saying the trade is bad for the cards. it just doesn't make the team appreciably better.

here's something to consider. vs rhp, belliard will be replacing aaron miles. miles' line vs rhp dating back three years: .297 / .322 / .373. belliard's line vs rhp is .267 / .321 / .392.

i don't see a massive upgrade there.

vs lhp, belliard replaces luna. belliard vs lhp has hit .315 / .389 / .518. luna vs lhp in his career has hit .290 / .345 / .424.

if that advantage seems to you significantly to outweigh a) the downgrade at backup ss, and b) the loss of luna's services next year at the league minimum, then it's a decent trade.

by lboros on Jul 30, 2006 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Small Sample Size...

I'm not saying you don't have a point about the Miles/Belliard numbers. But I have an irrational hatred for Miles. As far as Luna, I think he's a product of LaRussa's suberb numbers from bench players instead of some new found skill level. I just think his minor league numbers are more representative of the player he is. This is definitely my opinion, but that is what I believe. We have to agree to disagree on this one.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 30, 2006 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you could be right

i'll accept that argument -- the diff betw belliard and luna vs lhp may be much greater than those numbers i just posted.

my opinion differs from yours, but you make a fair case. we'll find out in the next 2 months!

by lboros on Jul 31, 2006 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I HOPE I'm right...

You're argument for losing a decent (and cheap) backup shortstop for league minimum are also well noted (especially if Belliard leaves as a free agent after this year). Eckstein going down is EXTREMELY scary right now (Miles at shortstop would pretty much doom our groundball staff).

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 31, 2006 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Surreal Life

This is just plum crazy! We now have all-stars or previous all-stars in every position in the infeild. Yes we paid more, yes we should have kept grudz. However, we made an improvement.(Albiet slight) I just don't see some kid from Oklahoma saying "Holy geez I have got to have that Hector Luna baseball card." It all comes down to money. Hector was cheap, but do you really think he is an impact player? Even if Belliard is crap, we just swapped the Indians for a different flavor.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." -Bob Gibson

by OKCardsfan on Jul 30, 2006 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

But I doubt if the Belliard card is a real hot commodity among young Okie baseball fans either...

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

per Bernie:

La Russa said he thinks Luna can become a "special" player.

"There isn't anybody who's had more confidence in him than our staff," La Russa said. "We've given him playing time. He's responded. I think he has a chance to be a special player and he's still learning."

Yeah, no one had more confidence in Luna more than La Russa and his staff.

That's why Luna played behind Aaron F. Miles this season.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dammit

You beat me by 9 seconds...

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 30, 2006 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Phillips...

... is saying that Green is unavailable after July 31st.

apparently, because Green has a limited no-trade clause, there can be no waiver-trades because the player can't be claimed off of waivers.

it makes sense. but Phillips has been wrong before. and didn't Walker have a no-trade? anyone know about this?

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 9:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes he did

He had to approve the trade

by Poooo Daddy on Jul 30, 2006 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

... Phillips was wrong.

imagine that.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

phillips

=mo vaughn...

by punchinjudy on Jul 30, 2006 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As I've mentioned before,

there's a reason that Phillips is a former GM...

by cardsrul on Jul 31, 2006 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thats

what I was wondering and azavatar(spelling) you made good points about gruz but i thought they offered some money to him maybe not 4 but anyway...and miles(so they didnt sign him) they got in a trade for fat boy king which they had to replace as the resident fat boy with ponson wh then got replaced by jeff weaver hwo pitched with fat boy colon in LA man i tried to do six degrees of sepeartion with fat pitchers but ran out

by punchinjudy on Jul 30, 2006 10:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Belliard = Not Quite Fat Man

Belliard is listed at 5-8, 197. I'd say the weight is a little low, never mind the fact that he's probably the most slovenly dressed player in the majors, even worse than Manny.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2006 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

don't know if this has already been said if we let belliard walk after this season, and we probably will, we will get a 1st or 2nd round pick for him. That has to sweeten the deal at least a little bit.

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jul 30, 2006 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

but we already had a belliard (i.e. Luna)

for league minimum. Now we get a draft pick who may or may not pan out. O and that draft pick costs us 1.3 million - that's not a very sweet pot imo. kinda tasteless (re: lateral move)

by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2006 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's something I hadn't thought about

I'm guessing that means we wouldn't have if we'd kept Miles and let him walk? If not, then that's just another reason for me to dislike the trade, because I could have seen them letting Miles walk before they let Belliard.

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

stros

rumored at baseball prospectus:The source tells me that the Rangers would send Brad Wilkerson and Rod Barajas to Houston for Brad Lidge, Morgan Ensberg and Fernando Nieve. This is a similar package to what the Astros offered on Miguel Tejada, so that's perhaps dead. The Rangers made a deal for a backup catcher (Miguel Ojeda) today, making it possible to deal Barajas. The Rangers also continue to be rumored to be watching pitchers. One of my best sources tells me that Hank Blalock hasn't been connected to "any real discussions."

why would they do that

by punchinjudy on Jul 30, 2006 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Marquis to be dealt?

baseball prospectus...The Mets haven't made the most of Aaron Heilman. Once expected to be a rotation fixture, the pitcher has instead found a home in the bullpen. He could find a home closer to his midwest roots if the information I got from a Mets official pans out. I'm told that the Mets are discussing shipping Heilman to the Cardinals in return for free-agent-to-be Jason Marquis.

heilmans numbers

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/heilmaa01.shtml

by punchinjudy on Jul 30, 2006 11:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

this would be a good deal

we would get a pitcher (im guessing, i dont know his contract) that would be under our control for a while, and dont forget he and milledge were the centerpieces of a zito deal, so if beane thinks highly of heilman he has got to be pretty good; we would have a very young rotation next year if we got him including carp, reyes, wainwright, and heilman

bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Jul 30, 2006 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

... more and more i think about this, the more i love it. we'd have control of Heilman for 4 years.

so there's no way it'll happen. although, Heilman has been on the outs with the Mets, so who knows?

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder how much, if any, difference

it would make that Marquis is from NY?

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Some career numbers:

7.73 k/9, 2.00 k/bb, 4.56 era, but he finished last year with a 3.17 era in 53 games, including 7 starts. And he could help in either the bullpen or the rotation.

I like it!

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This sounds like a great deal

Heilman has struggled a bit this year, but if I remember right most Mets fans were ticked at the beginning of the year that Heilman wasn't in the rotation, so he's obviously at least shown flashes of brilliance, and anything that gets Marquis out of St. Louis while bringing something of value in return is a deal I'm in favor of.

Luck O' The Redbirds

by stlnd on Jul 31, 2006 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Although...

I'll admit to being a bit biased on Heilman since he's a former Irish pitcher. Still though, a talented pitcher who won't cost that much and will be locked up for four years in exchange for Bipolar Betty? It definitely seems almost too good to be true.

Luck O' The Redbirds

by stlnd on Jul 31, 2006 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it would be a very sensible trade

for st louis; i hope it goes down.

by lboros on Jul 31, 2006 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you really think

it could happen? I can't imagine Omar Minaya thinking Jason Marquis is a better short-term option in the rotation than Aaron Heilman, to say nothing of their respective contract statamuses.

That said... of course it would be great if that could happen. Marquis almost has me pining away for 2003 vintage Garrett Stephenson. Almost.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jul 31, 2006 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder myself

But Marquis is the NL leader in wins and the Mets do lead the league in runs scored; maybe they figure that Marquis could be even more successful in a Met's uniform?

Plus, Marquis isn't exactly worthless at his age and with his talent. Maybe they figure they have a good chance of "fixing" him and then re-signing him, since he is a native New Yorker.

I could see how it could work out well for both teams, but I'd bet on St. Louis getting the better deal first.

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 3:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fantastic deal

This would make me forgive Jocketty for the Belliard/Luna mess.

by DanUpBaby on Jul 31, 2006 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this sounds like it

would be a phenomenal deal for the cardinals

another bullpen/back-of-the-rotation youngster for cheap

too good to be true???

by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2006 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPlease!!!

OMG that would make me soooo happy!!!

by glamberson on Jul 31, 2006 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmm...

... only really makes sense if Wainwright ends up in the rotation. if that's the case, then go for it.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2006 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bernie

has chimed in on the validity of Will carroll saying he is a good reporter

by punchinjudy on Jul 30, 2006 11:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If I had known

at the beginning of July that we would be making trades with the Angels and the Indians, and we would be picking up a 2B and a SP, I would have hoped it would have been Adam Kennedy at 2B and Jake Westbrook at SP...damn...

P. S. If the Marquis for Heilman rumors are true, do it in a heartbeat. As a side note to that, I'd love to see how Marquis handles the New York fans, LOL...

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2006 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Do we want to trade Bipolar Betty to the Mets...

...seeing as there is a good chance we will see them in the NLCS? Good Marquis could show up and we'd be screwed.

I dunno, I'm more than weiry about trading against a potential foe.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 12:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm perfectly comfortable with that possibility

My subjective opinion is that Heilman has more upside potential and he probably won't complain if he's relegated to the bullpen. My objective opinion is that it's better to have Heilman locked up for 2.5? years then a half season of Marquis as a soon-to-be FA.

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heilman is like 8 months younger than Marquis...

....and Marquis has been better than Heilman ever has been.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's why I said it was my subjective opinion

that Heilman has more upside potential, rather then flat-out saying that he's better. While they're both just now reaching their prime age, Heilman has better peripherels and probably has better "makeup". I especially like that Heilman's career k/9 rate is 7.73 compared to Marquis' 5.47, even though I realize it's probably not a fair comparison.

And if Heilman doesn't become a reliable part of our rotation, then he has the potential to be a reliable bullpen arm, which is a big part of my assessment. Regardless of whether we were to make this trade or not, we're very likely to move someone out of the rotation in the coming months and Heilman seems like a more realistic possibility in the bullpen then Marquis.

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh well

Thats just a chance were gonna have to take! :)

(That is a happy exclamation point)

R.I.P. Chris Collins

by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Jul 31, 2006 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I've seen those kinda things happen before. Not necessarily meeting up in the playoffs. The first person that comes to mind is Steve Carlton. Although I don't remember who we got for him. I guess I'm dating myself....hmmmm

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 12:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I dated myself once

but we didn't get along...

"I grew up in Oklahoma, and once you start runnin' out there there ain't nothin' to stop you" - Johnny Leonard Roosevelt "Pepper" Martin

by iron duke75 on Jul 31, 2006 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Fortunately, I get along pretty well with me.

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rick Wise...

...who was really good and then not so good. Of course, Carlton..I think, turned out alright after that.

Rick Wise also had one of the greatest games EVER. http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B06230CIN1971.htm

Overall, though...I'm just leary of giving a team like the Mets whose rotation is getting ancient by the day, someone who is younger and has been decent in the postseason.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

marquis has been atrocious

in the postseason --- 18 walks in 22 innings, 4.57 era, 0-2 record.

by lboros on Jul 31, 2006 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, yeah

Carlton ended up in the Hall of Fame

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

I lost track of him after the blazing glory of the wonderful Rick Wise days.

Good for Carlton. I'm sure glad we didn't give him that extra $5,000 he wanted.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carlton

Inducted in 1994. Are you up late, Hardcore, or do you live on the west coast?

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tongue

meet cheek.

Check the Diaries on the sidebar of the main page.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

you made an ass out of me

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry...

...it was all in good fun.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No need to apologize

It's hard to tell when people are being sincere, sarcastic, etc on this blog. You jump in & you have to take it. I especially appreciate your comments as you seem to have a similar outlook to mine. I'm sure you'll get me again :)

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That game is insane

I think you'd have to go back to Babe Ruth to find something similar.

by Valatan on Jul 31, 2006 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was traded for

Rick Wise.

by cardsrul on Jul 31, 2006 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

at mlbtraderumors

they say that soriano's suitors are down to two, angels and astros. i really hope he goes to the angels but if he does go to houston they would be giving up lidge and/or oswalt, so they would definitely be out of the playoffs in my mind. i also dont want the astros to get him because we wont be able to face lidge anymore

bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Jul 31, 2006 12:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What????

"i also dont want the astros to get him because we wont be able to face lidge anymore"

We OWN Lidge.

R.I.P. Chris Collins

by viva el rojo pajaro 42 on Jul 31, 2006 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think that's

what he just said.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dont know if i worded that right

but im trying to say that i want lidge to stay in houston so we can kick his ass around some more, sorry about that

bring home a championship to STL

by cards4ever on Jul 31, 2006 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd love to see them trade Oswalt for Soriano

Oswalt is their most steady starting pitcher and trading him would be a big blow to them, imo.

I'm not sure that it doesn't make sense for the Astros, though, because they need some offense and this is likely their last go around with Clemens, Oswalt and Pettite, who are all free agents after this season.

by rob is back on Jul 31, 2006 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would love for them to

trade Oswalt though.

by Toddius396 on Jul 31, 2006 1:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Marquis...

According to Bernie M, there is discussion of a Jason Marquis for Aaron Heilman deal. Hmmmm....

by matt reeder on Jul 31, 2006 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

6-2 & even, over & out

by busch bird on Jul 31, 2006 2:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Trade talk makes me forget

the drubbing Chicago just handed us the last 4 games. They should make the 31st a holiday so that I don't have to try and sneak looksies at VEB or ESPN tomorrow duing work.

Aaron Heilmen
Jason Schmidt

These are names I like pitching-wise...

Crain Wilson
Shawn Green

Names I like for hitters...
(trying to be at least somewhat realistic)

by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2006 2:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm going to watch To Have or Have Not and

head to bed. If I wake up and we've traded future players for soon-to-be free agents, I'm not sure how tomorrow will be.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 2:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately, with our Hotel Marquis...

...there is no Bacall upstairs, more than likely a rummy and a bunch of dead Free Frenchers.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2006 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great movie...

The "If you need me just whistle" line is classic. No wonder Bogey was so enthralled with Bacall...

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jul 31, 2006 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sigh

"On the other hand, Luna is trending upward, while Belliard seems to be treading water or sliding back. I've been advocating for Luna most of this year, and I won't stop now; he's going to outplay Belliard over the next two months, take hold of the second-base job in Cleveland and be one of the best 2Bs in the AL in 2007."

another small exerpt from Baseball Prospectus. Good article that basically echoes the statements we've made here about swapping the same player.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5366&PHPSESSID=699f79269dd9ad397ee0aca0d d5eedf3

by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2006 7:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I never

did understand the logic of swapping two guys who play the same position? A second baseman for a second baseman? Doesn't make much sense.

I wish TLR would give some youngsters a shot, Luna was hands down better than Miles. Haren was/is a terrific starter. Reyes. Wainwright.

Oh, but at least Duncan gets a ton of at-bats and plenty of playing time. Gee...wonder why!?

by lopey986 on Jul 31, 2006 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cleveland Fans

Another point, i notice a lot of Cleveland fan's are upset over on the tribe blog, but they all seem to think they still have a shot at something this year? Do they not understand the concept of a salary dump? They get a good 25 year old super utility man for a soon-to-be free agent 2b who will command 12 mil over 3 years (more than likely). Cleveland fans...Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

by lopey986 on Jul 31, 2006 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

maybe

this guy knows where to position himself on a groudball to third double play opportunity. Maybe he knows where to run to to be a cutoff for the rightfielder. Defensive stats don't do Luna's [lack of] fielding justice. The more Luna played, the more it was obvious that he shouldn't be starting. With Belliard we're getting more pop, and more importantly consistancy in the stretch.

by Birds on the Matt on Jul 31, 2006 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

even worse, in my opinion

is swapping a natural shortstop who has been getting most of his playing time at 2nd for a natural second baseman who can't play short.

the idea of miles as our backup ss scare the bejeebus out of me. the idea of miles as our first choice pinch runner scares me. gollum pretty much scares me in general, though i think i could take him if it came to that.

Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on Jul 31, 2006 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Network Bar

Viva El Birdos -

Luna for Belliard open thread

Comments