a brief history of mark mulder's shoulder
let's begin in the present day --- st louis post-dispatch, june 24, 2006:
Head trainer Barry Weinberg said Mulder is expected to recover without surgery but refrained from estimating when he might next pitch. Mulder will not pick up a ball for at least another week and is scheduled to be re-examined by Paletta next Friday during the club's home stand.
"It's not good news because he's missing time," Weinberg said. "But identifying it is important. It's not a situation where it's an operative condition. It's one we can treat conservatively" with rest and anti-inflammatory medication.
let mark mulder serve as an example -- a case study in how conservative treatment can prevent a minor problem from flaring up into something major. . . . .
mulder's saga dates back to may 3, the day he left the team in houston and returned to st louis to see team doctor george paletta. matt leach picks up the story:
but mulder kept pitching.
he tossed quality starts in his next four games and won three of them, but he was laboring; only once did he go more than 6 1/3 innings (he exceeded that total 4 times in his first 6 starts). on may 28, at san diego, the first sign of real trouble surfaced: mulder gave up three homers and 8 runs in the span of 10 batters, blowing a 6-2 lead and sending st louis on its way to a 10-8 defeat. after mulder's next start, a 2d successive pummeling (at home vs chicago), some guy calling himself "no dribble" (a tobacco juice ref'nce, perhaps) posted the following keen observations at bernie miklasz' chat room:
But the thing that troubles me is that his arm speed was really slow--too many times lagging behind the rest of his body when delivering the ball, which would contribute to the number of pitches that were up in the zone. I remember he's had back issues this season, which can really screw up your mechanics. It's not uncommon for a pitcher who has back issues to alter his motion to compensate, which unfortunately often puts unusual strain on the arm--the shoulder especially--and creates a secondary injury, which at least in part, looked to be the case today with the slow arm speed.
whoever this guy is, he knew then what we all know now: mulder's shoulder was unsound. duncan, la russa, weisberg, jocketty -- somebody had to have seen what "no dribble" saw and reached the same conclusions. we can guess that they did, because two days later, on june 6, mulder's health status came into question --- as noted right here, in this post:
Update [2006-6-6 11:36:9 by lboros]: they've updated the site as of 10:30 a.m. CDT -- mulder is now listed as saturday's starter, meaning he's going on 7 days' rest. marquis remains listed as friday's starter, which means he essentially is hop-frogging mulder in the rotation.
reyes continued to mow 'em down at memphis.
after mulder's next start, a 5-inning slog (9 hits, 4 runs, 2 homers) vs the pirates, duncan offered this upbeat assessment: "It's a step forward. As long as he keeps making steps forward, he'll get back to where we need him to be."
and then came the comiskey collapse, after which la russa explained:
Asked if he wondered if the pending free agent is physically diminished, La Russa said, "There's no reason why he would hide it."
Pitching coach Dave Duncan believes Mulder to be sound physically but admitted he feels "borderline helpless" in addressing the pitcher's current woes. "We've tried just about everything I can think of," he said.
La Russa described some of the lefthander's side sessions as "electric," and like Duncan, he struggles to account for his inability to translate his side sessions to games.
i don't think tony and dave missed anything. i think they knew mulder was hurt but thought that he could grit it out, just as they thought rolen could grit out his sore shoulder last season. i think they kept sending mulder out there, impaired, because -- to quote la russa from directly above -- "we need him so much." they needed him so much that they decided to pretend he wasn't hurt; they decided to pretend that mulder had been improving and that his side sessions had been electric.
they kept sending him out there, and all along they had reyes available down in memphis.
it doesn't really matter whether you agree that their handling of mulder has been fundamentally dishonest. if the mistake was an honest one, so much the worse: it means tony and dave were the last ones to see what had become plain to fans, reporters, and ev'yone else. if it was an honest mistake, then it was also a grossly incompetent one; and these two men have had too much success for me to believe they were guilty of such.
i can believe, though, that they would take a reckless chance with a player's health and then plead ignorance when it backfires.
all of this might have been avoided if the cardinals had applied (ahem) conservative treatment in may, when mulder's back problem becamde serious enough to require an emergency trip to the team doctor. the shoulder almost surely got hurt as a result of mulder's pitching through the back pain; as "no dribble" described, mulder likely favored the back, changed his delivery, and put more stress on the joint. those compensatory measures worked for a few starts, but they ultimately turned a manageable problem -- back pain -- into a far more serious injury to mulder's pitching arm.
could any of this have been foreseen? am i just 2d-guessing here? no, i'm not just 2d-guessing. on may 8 i outlined a plan to leverage two off-days in mid-may into a 14-day respite for mulder, while keeping ev'ybody else on normal rest:
| 8 v colo marquis |
9 v colo carp |
10 v colo supp |
11 open | 12 v ari reyes |
13 v ari marquis |
14 v ari carp |
| 15 open | 16 v nym supp |
17 v nym ponson |
18 v nym marquis |
19 at kc carp |
20 at kc mulder |
21 at kc supp |
ponson would get 10 days off between starts; mulder (the more important pitcher) would get 14; and reyes could get another taste of the bigs -- pitching at home, against a team that's not well equipped to exploit reyes' hr vulnerability (arizona ranks 10th in the league in homers). it's just an option; i doubt the cardinals will take it. and maybe it isn't necessary; maybe mulder's back is coming along. i just figure, why push it when you don't have to?
whatever the outcome for mark mulder going forward, la russa and duncan will have to answer for it.
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Good post
by PhatAlbert on Jun 24, 2006 10:09 AM EDT reply actions
How Dusty-esque
by Ryan Van Bibber on Jun 24, 2006 10:12 AM EDT reply actions
What's striking
By your timeline, lboros, this post-dates the crucial Mulder decisions, so it's possible they they learned from the Mulder mistakes. Or perhaps it's just the difference between the two pitchers -- Carp too valuable to take be taking any chances.
A pretty damning post. I suppose the silver lining is that it might open up chances for Reyes/Wainwright/Tankersley to show what they can do. And surely it'll cut the cost of re-signing Mulder in the off chance that's still in the picture at the end of the season.
excellent analysis
You would've also thought Mulder knew. He should've said something. This whole time he's been denying everything, but with every start he's costing himself money come December by looking so terrible.
To go even further and toss out conspiracy theories, you wonder if he has had this problem since Oakland, and the A's DID know about it. It's not like Mulder was hitting 92-93 last season, either. But he did in Oakland. It wasn't until 04 that he started to really have struggles, but the A's insisted it wasn't anything wrong with his health. Yet his K's keep falling off every year since. And last year, he changed his approach, becoming much more dependent on GB's, because he couldn't blow hitters away any more.
yes rev
pretty stark illustration of how their policy vis-vis young pitchers hurts the organization.
what's maddening
I think Paletta
Wait a sec
IIRC the guy who misdiagnosed Rolen resigned last year.
self-diagnosis
when is this team going to shitcan Paletta?
by Ryan Van Bibber on Jun 24, 2006 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
Another idea...
If that was their mentality, they then had two options:
- What they did:Keep Mulder pitching, keep Reyes down in Memphis where his stats were good, thus keeping his trade value high.
- Call Reyes up and rest Mulder at the risk of Reyes just getting killed at the MLB and ruining his trade value.
trading Reyes
Thanks...
I'm not ..
I wish...
"I think if you took an MRI of every veteran pitcher in the game there's a good chance you would find fraying to some extent."
Major league players play through pain, especially major league pitchers. It's the nature of the beast. Edmonds said a while back that they'll call you stupid if you try to play through it and gutless if you don't. Sometimes they'll call you both.
I don't know anybody who doesn't take these kinds of risks. There's the moron who nearly ran his Canyonero over me in a parking lot last night and don't get me started on the stock market. I don't like the way the Cardinals have handled the PR aspects of injuries -- the corporate mentality of never admitting negatives -- but calculated risks are very much a part of the game.
by Rob H on Jun 24, 2006 11:54 AM EDT reply actions
yes risks are part of the game
if it was a reasonable risk to keep mulder on the mound in may ---- and i'll accept that argument, because mulder seemed to be pitching without impairment --- do you think it was reasonable to keep him out there after three consecutive blowout starts?
as for jocketty's statement about the MRI thing --- just sounds like spin to me.
Speaking of that
Any GM who leaves a
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 24, 2006 12:18 PM EDT reply actions
That's a silly statement
Yes, he has to balance all that with trying to win, but the doctor does as well.
But of course now
And this is a guy who trotted Rolen out there day after day last year when everyone else could see that the guy's arm was about to fall off.
There are plenty of other people -- coaches, players, trainers, front office people and some fans -- who see as many games as TLR does. I stand by my statement.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 24, 2006 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Brilliant move by TLR and Duncan to keep Mulder..
Or not.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2006 12:51 PM EDT reply actions
I think that this situation...
And further, could it be that their willingness to take a serious risk with Mulder is reflective of their intention to let him walk after the season's end?
unrelated to keeping him
Regardless of what happens after the season, the Cards want Mulder to well for the sake of the team. Contract issues are Jocketty's domain.
Wow
I think this has been an ongoing problem for quite a while. Healthy pitchers of Mulder's age don't lose 8 mph off their fastballs.
Mulder
by endlessticketscom on Jun 24, 2006 2:01 PM EDT reply actions
we don't know
but if he comes back healthy, those are not catastrophic losses.
what bothers me is the possibility that the shoulder injury was a direct result of their gamble. it's one thing to gamble on a guy who already has a sore arm, throw him out there and see if he can still get hitters out. it's another thing to take a guy whose arm is healthy and, by having him pitch when he isn't healthy, create a sore arm through imprudent usage.
if tony/dunc are guilty of that, then it's not a good bet.
Nothing major?
What if resting him doesn't improve his shoulder? Then it's surgery and he will be out the rest of the season. The same thing happened to Rolen. He rested his shoulder, came back and was not healthy, had surgery and was out the rest of the season.
I'm hoping that rest will help Mulder but whenever a pitcher has a shoulder problem you can't say it's nothing major.
Good bet?
It seems like a pretty poor gamble to me and I find it quite disappointing, because I thought TLR was known as an intelligent coach?
Nice historiography
by birdie on Jun 24, 2006 2:16 PM EDT reply actions
Great post
Here's hoping that something will finally be done in the situation, so that Mulder will be able to contribute at some point this season.
by Tiffany on Jun 24, 2006 2:17 PM EDT reply actions
Nice detective work
http://player2bnamedl8r.mlblogs.com/
by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 24, 2006 2:33 PM EDT reply actions
Situation was mishandled...
I'm not sure Tony/Dunc could have pulled him on May 8, especially with Mulder saying he was healthy. However, they definitely should have pulled Mulder after the Milw start. He was laboring and had 3 successive "stinkers" as Tony would say.
What would have been the harm in pulling Mulder and giving him an MRI to MAKE SURE he was healthy? Reyes already had made 2 solid starts and could have filled in nicely.
I think management has been to stubborn with regards to using Reyes. Imagine if no one was injured. Reyes would still be in AAA.
thanks dubya
but i still think it was. case in point: last august they skipped him for one turn in the rotation with a minor neck ailment --- the august 27 game, which jason marquis famously started instead, on short rest, and won with a 3-hit shutout. it was just a precautionary measure --- they didn't want something minor to become major.
they might easily have made the same calculation back in may. as will carroll put it at the time, they have two alternatives: pitch him and get him some rest, just to make sure; or gamble and have him pitch through it.
you state the other half of this very well: however you feel about their decision to keep mulder pitching in may, it was pretty clear by early june that he was not healthy --- and they very stubbornly insisted he was.
standings
If they knew the risk was for exactly this type of injury to crop up, then I'd say it was a fair gamble, because even if they lose, it's not major. But the troubling thing is they had no way of predicting the severity of any potential arm injury that would result from playing through the back pain.
The most frustrating aspect is that we all know it wouldn't have been detrimental to give him the rest and let Reyes take a turn or two, but for whatever reason, TLR and Dunc don't seem comfortable enough with Reyes. Hopefully his results speak for themselves and he can gain the confidence of his management team.
Post of the year so far
I happen to agree. I honestly wouldn't expect a player to admit they aren't feeling well to often. Part of the warrior mentality a ML player has developed from years of competition. Or taking one for the team.
A player like Albert may be able to say "I can't go" and that's OK (because he plays 160+ games per year and has shown he'll gut through anything), but I suspect most players would feel less comfortable taking off time.
This situation does make me question the judgement, not necessarily the competence off the management group. I agree that WJ's statement regarding frayed labrums is merely spin.
I don't expect honest commentary from TLR/DD/WJ. And that isn't an indictment. I think it might consitute in their eyes offering a competitve disadvantage. You don't want the competition to know anything. Keep them guessing.
The proof is in the results. Their handling of situations has it's logic, but if the results don't bear it ourt, as with Mulder/Reyes, then we are correct to question it.
And I would agree it has been mismanaged.
You're right, they
Does this mean it's ownership's job to put the brakes on sometimes? Unfortunately, it may be.
Maybe the Birds can hire a VP of Common Sense to whisper things in WJ's ear at certain times.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 24, 2006 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe there's a positive outcome...
Reyes will get more than a few starts. This will give him a good test instead of just a start once in awhile. Maybe he establishes himself and Tony/Dunc can't send him back to AAA. Look at Wainwright. He is now an integral part of the bullpen. So much so, that Tony/Dunc don't want to start him unless they have no other option.
Mulder rests his shoulder (and back) for a month or more and regains his velocity. He comes back for the stretch run and helps pitch the Cards into the playoffs.
Ponson is out of the picture. Perhaps sent to the bullpen or given his outright release.
Marquis is traded for a left-fielder. I'm not sure who we could get but hey, I'm trying to stay positive.
and our 5th starter is?
that's an awful lot of movement for a first-place team. i'm not sure Tankersley can be trusted, so we're gonna have to keep Marquis or Ponson.
at this point, i say get Mulder right (as right as he can get), pitch Reyes, hope that Ponson keeps it together for a few weeks until Mulder gets back and then DFA him. I'd feel okay in the playoffs with a Carp/Mulder (if healthy)/Reyes/Suppan rotation, and Marquis in emergency/long relief.
in the long run, i'd feel alright with a Carp/Reyes/Wainwright/Suppan/Marquis rotation, if nothing else can be done. i gotta feeling that Marquis' ego will have him leaving StL next year, tho.
I see your point but...
I want a team that can win in the playoffs. A 5th starter will help us win regular season games but is not much help in the playoffs.
I know, you have to win in the regular season to make the playoffs but we play in a soft division and even the NL is soft in general. I think we can make it without Marquis and we can use another bat.
Remember Travis Smith?! He actually started 10 games in 2002 for a team that won 97 games and won the division. That was the same season Simontacchi won 11 games for the Cards.
Can Tank pitch as well as Ponson? Maybe. If not, then Ponson would be our 5th and not be released.
All of this is dependent on Mulder getting healthly and coming back and pitching well. If this doesn't happen, then we are in real trouble. We'll need much more than a 5th starter.
you're right...
we have a few "known" commodities: Carp, Suppan, Mulder, and Marquis. perhaps they are all regressing for different reasons (injuries, moving back toward career numbers, etc.), but we have to have those guys perform as they are capable or we risk losing the division. it seems pretty clear that we won't be able to obtain Smoltz, Willis, or Schmidt, so we'll have to make do with what we've got. that would be fine... if these guys would pitch as they are capable.
Good post!
by Neuronix on Jun 24, 2006 3:47 PM EDT reply actions
what i don't understand is this
I wonder too
IIRC, we were still trying to put things together back then and the division was still pretty hazy. Maybe they believed it was too important to establish themselves atop the division to give Mulder some rest? That doesn't make me feel any better about their competence, but I'm not sure that a misdiagnosis is any better.
I can't think of anything that would excuse them from fault here.
A good post LB, but
I am also amused by the fact that commentors who now are bad mouthing TLR and DD for making poor Mulder pitch with a bad arm were busy calling Mulder a quiter and gutless when he pitched poorly. For shame--
AS long as I'm being the gadfly, I'll add another word of dissent, regarding the prevailing wish to blame Paletta. I have no brief or personal reason to defend him, but when a player (or any patient) says it feels fine, I have no pain or limitation, then there is rarely any benefit to order a bunch of tests. Diagnosis is always obvious in retrospect, so I think there is more unjustified second guessing here, too. For shame again.
the medical stuff
first, my complaint isn't against paletta; it's against la russa / dunc. the last line of the post says it's those two who will have to answer for mulder's health; not paletta. it is tony/dunc's responsibility to manage the team's resources (players), and wise stewardship sometimes means that you impose caution and shut a player down, even if the player and the doctor say he can play.
obviously, something wasn't right; otherwise, why was mulder flying back to st louis to see doc paletta in the first place? so even when doc paletta said, "i can't find anything specifically wrong with this body," it was still the manager's option to say, "well that's great news; fantastic news. something still isn't right, so let's play it safe anyway and give the guy some extra rest. it's too early in the season to be monkeying around."
i, and more knowledgeable people than i, offered that opinion at the time of the injury; it's not a 2d guess.
your 2d point --- there may be no relationship between the back pain and the shoulder --- is more than fair. but at the very least it's a possibility that the two are related; back injuries commonly do lead to arm injuries, which is why back pain trips the alarms to begin with.
mulder has never had an arm injury in his life; it would be quite a coincidence if he suddenly got one on the heels of a back problem, but there was no relationship btween the two.
but it's still possible that they're unrelated, so for the sake of discussion let's assume that they are. we can then set aside the month of may and focus on june. i still don't understand their decision-making from june 4 forward. it was obvious by then that he was hurt --- guys were spotting the injury from their tv screens, and the beat writers were all asking questions about it; his velocity was way down, his motion looked different, and so did his pitches. and the results spoke for themselves. sending the guy out there three more times ---- well, at the very least it didn't give the team much chance to win on the nights mulder pitched, and at worst it caused his condition to worsen.
the possibility that mulder said "i'm fine," and the training/medical staff said "it's nothing structural," still doesn't get TLR off the hook. it's his job to make independent judgments and do what's best for the sake of the team.
if they'd shut mulder down three starts ago, it would mean a) they might have won some of the games mulder started, instead of losing 20-6; and b) he'd be coming back healthy a few days from now, instead of 3 weeks from now.
i just don't see any upside to the way this way handled. there were a series of decision points, and at each juncture they decided to let him keep pitching. since i and others questioned those decisions at the time, it's not unfair to point out that their decisions haven't worked out very well.
Isn't guessing what sports fans do?
I agree with you about the Mulder bashing and I think that we're too overzealous to jump on players having problems in general. But there's some bad history with player's health in St. Louis, and if LBoros' is right, then I don't know how TLR and DD could not be considered irresponsible for continuing to play Mulder.
Apparently Mulder did have some limitation, even if he didn't realize it. LBoros' pointed out that this had been pointed out before by someone on Bernie's Pressbox and I've heard others mention it as well. Perhaps Paletta doesn't deserve any blame here, but you'd think that TLR and/or DD would have noticed it and it seems like that should have been to order some tests. I mean, it's not like people haven't been asking if Mulder is injured for weeks now.
I can recall
by birdie on Jun 24, 2006 5:23 PM EDT reply actions
Trade bait
by dancurry on Jun 24, 2006 5:27 PM EDT reply actions
I think TLR and Dunc do deserve much of the blame
Saying "Coach, I think I'm hurt and I don't feel like I can win it for us if I go out there" would qualify as "taking one for the team" more than playing hurt would, in my opinion. Especially if there are better options (Reyes) available.
Sometimes taking a seat is the best way to help your team win (it always worked for me). I don't know if Mulder's denials were due to his competitive nature, or fear of lowering his trade value. Watching his body language on the mound when he's getting pummelled, I can't help but feel it's probably the latter.
But he claims he didn't know?
by rob is back on Jun 25, 2006 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess there's no way we can know for sure
Maybe he didn't know. But if he did and was just hiding it, then he wasn't being fair to the rest of the team.
Regardless, I hope it is something he can come back from. It sure would be nice to have the Oakland-vintage Mulder in our rotation. Hell, at this point, it would be nice to have the 2005 Mulder back...



















