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a brief history of mark mulder's shoulder

let's begin in the present day --- st louis post-dispatch, june 24, 2006:

Lefthander Mark Mulder will be shelved at least through the All-Star break and probably longer after an MRI on Friday found that he has been pitching with a shoulder impingement, inflammation of the rotator cuff and slight fraying of the labrum.

Head trainer Barry Weinberg said Mulder is expected to recover without surgery but refrained from estimating when he might next pitch. Mulder will not pick up a ball for at least another week and is scheduled to be re-examined by Paletta next Friday during the club's home stand.

"It's not good news because he's missing time," Weinberg said. "But identifying it is important. It's not a situation where it's an operative condition. It's one we can treat conservatively" with rest and anti-inflammatory medication.

ahh, conservative treatment; where have we heard that one before? the cardinals lead the league in "conservative" treatment; they're the most careful, cautious guardians of ballplayer health in the whole major leagues.

let mark mulder serve as an example -- a case study in how conservative treatment can prevent a minor problem from flaring up into something major. . . . .

mulder's saga dates back to may 3, the day he left the team in houston and returned to st louis to see team doctor george paletta. matt leach picks up the story:

Mark Mulder returned to St. Louis to have his back examined by Dr. George Paletta on Wednesday. Mulder, who had felt some back discomfort in recent starts, was cleared by Paletta to continue pitching. He is expected to make his regularly scheduled start against Dontrelle Willis and the Marlins on Saturday at Dolphins Stadium.
whew, sigh of relief. but the following day, will carroll suggested at baseball prospectus that mulder's sore back was nothing at all to dismiss lightly -- and that his problems might be only beginning:
When you hear reports that Mark Mulder had gone back to St. Louis for an exam, that's not good. . . . . Knowing that it's not a structural problem is a plus, yet leaves Dave Duncan to do the hard part. Does Mulder miss a start to try and heal up, maybe even head to the DL to make sure, or does he go out and pitch through it, hoping that the training staff has a good enough handle on him to not let it get back into the pain/spasm cycle?
mulder's manager, coaches, and training staff -- conservative lot that they are -- chose option B: pitch through it. mind you, mulder's next turn was in florida, vs the woeful florida marlins -- an 8-21 club at the time. the cardinals were carrying 13 pitchers; maybe they could've squeaked by with a bullpen game? for that matter, they might have sat mulder down and turned to a pitcher named reyes, down at memphis. with two open dates in the subsequent 10 days, the cards could have held mulder out for three weeks at the cost of only one missed start -- in may. against a last-place team.

but mulder kept pitching.

he tossed quality starts in his next four games and won three of them, but he was laboring; only once did he go more than 6 1/3 innings (he exceeded that total 4 times in his first 6 starts). on may 28, at san diego, the first sign of real trouble surfaced: mulder gave up three homers and 8 runs in the span of 10 batters, blowing a 6-2 lead and sending st louis on its way to a 10-8 defeat. after mulder's next start, a 2d successive pummeling (at home vs chicago), some guy calling himself "no dribble" (a tobacco juice ref'nce, perhaps) posted the following keen observations at bernie miklasz' chat room:

I was watching the game today from my living room and paying particular attention to Mulder's apparent mechanics, especially his arm speed and arm slot. . . . . Mulder's arm slot changed too many times to count, like he was looking for a comfortable and successful angle to deliver the ball. Even watching on TV with the camera angle, it was pretty obvious--no consistency at all. I assume that's what was going on--he was trying to find his "groove."

But the thing that troubles me is that his arm speed was really slow--too many times lagging behind the rest of his body when delivering the ball, which would contribute to the number of pitches that were up in the zone. I remember he's had back issues this season, which can really screw up your mechanics. It's not uncommon for a pitcher who has back issues to alter his motion to compensate, which unfortunately often puts unusual strain on the arm--the shoulder especially--and creates a secondary injury, which at least in part, looked to be the case today with the slow arm speed.

with hindsight, it's pretty clear that "no dribble" knew whereof he spoke. and i more than half-suspect "no dribble" wasn't just your average game-of-the-week-watching schmuck; sounds like a pretty knowledgeable guy with a well-honed sense of what to look for.

whoever this guy is, he knew then what we all know now: mulder's shoulder was unsound. duncan, la russa, weisberg, jocketty -- somebody had to have seen what "no dribble" saw and reached the same conclusions. we can guess that they did, because two days later, on june 6, mulder's health status came into question --- as noted right here, in this post:

here's an interesting item: the official site lists marquis as friday's starter; that should be mulder's turn. the starter for saturday is named as "to be determined." i wonder what's up. mulder's back, you'll recall, flared up on him in april. maybe he's hurt.

Update [2006-6-6 11:36:9 by lboros]: they've updated the site as of 10:30 a.m. CDT -- mulder is now listed as saturday's starter, meaning he's going on 7 days' rest. marquis remains listed as friday's starter, which means he essentially is hop-frogging mulder in the rotation.

somewhere in the organization, there were doubts about mulder's ability to take his normal turn. in the end, he did take it -- and got killed, yielding 6 runs in 3 innings at milwaukee.

reyes continued to mow 'em down at memphis.

after mulder's next start, a 5-inning slog (9 hits, 4 runs, 2 homers) vs the pirates, duncan offered this upbeat assessment: "It's a step forward. As long as he keeps making steps forward, he'll get back to where we need him to be."

and then came the comiskey collapse, after which la russa explained:

"Since we need him so much, I'm going to decide to remember he has been improving. When you're pitching great, sometimes you have a stinker. Today was a stinker."

Asked if he wondered if the pending free agent is physically diminished, La Russa said, "There's no reason why he would hide it."

Pitching coach Dave Duncan believes Mulder to be sound physically but admitted he feels "borderline helpless" in addressing the pitcher's current woes. "We've tried just about everything I can think of," he said.

La Russa described some of the lefthander's side sessions as "electric," and like Duncan, he struggles to account for his inability to translate his side sessions to games.

either these guys were lying -- the same thing duncan indignantly accused ozzie guillen of the day after the mulder debacle -- or they missed something that a fan (if that's who he was) diagnosed from a TV screen and described to a tee in a chat room.

i don't think tony and dave missed anything. i think they knew mulder was hurt but thought that he could grit it out, just as they thought rolen could grit out his sore shoulder last season. i think they kept sending mulder out there, impaired, because -- to quote la russa from directly above -- "we need him so much." they needed him so much that they decided to pretend he wasn't hurt; they decided to pretend that mulder had been improving and that his side sessions had been electric.

they kept sending him out there, and all along they had reyes available down in memphis.

it doesn't really matter whether you agree that their handling of mulder has been fundamentally dishonest. if the mistake was an honest one, so much the worse: it means tony and dave were the last ones to see what had become plain to fans, reporters, and ev'yone else. if it was an honest mistake, then it was also a grossly incompetent one; and these two men have had too much success for me to believe they were guilty of such.

i can believe, though, that they would take a reckless chance with a player's health and then plead ignorance when it backfires.

all of this might have been avoided if the cardinals had applied (ahem) conservative treatment in may, when mulder's back problem becamde serious enough to require an emergency trip to the team doctor. the shoulder almost surely got hurt as a result of mulder's pitching through the back pain; as "no dribble" described, mulder likely favored the back, changed his delivery, and put more stress on the joint. those compensatory measures worked for a few starts, but they ultimately turned a manageable problem -- back pain -- into a far more serious injury to mulder's pitching arm.

could any of this have been foreseen? am i just 2d-guessing here? no, i'm not just 2d-guessing. on may 8 i outlined a plan to leverage two off-days in mid-may into a 14-day respite for mulder, while keeping ev'ybody else on normal rest:

this might [be] an opportune time to let mulder skip a couple of starts and rest his back. so happens his next turn falls on the same day anthony reyes is due to pitch. if they'd call anthony up and let him take that turn for st louis instead of memphis, they could get both mulder and ponson [whose elbow problems had already begun to surface -- ed.] some extra rest. voila:
8 v colo
marquis
9 v colo
carp
10 v colo
supp
11 open 12 v ari
reyes
13 v ari
marquis
14 v ari
carp
15 open 16 v nym
supp
17 v nym
ponson
18 v nym
marquis
19 at kc
carp
20 at kc
mulder
21 at kc
supp

ponson would get 10 days off between starts; mulder (the more important pitcher) would get 14; and reyes could get another taste of the bigs -- pitching at home, against a team that's not well equipped to exploit reyes' hr vulnerability (arizona ranks 10th in the league in homers). it's just an option; i doubt the cardinals will take it. and maybe it isn't necessary; maybe mulder's back is coming along. i just figure, why push it when you don't have to?

i'm not dredging this up to show what a smart guy i am; i'm merely saying the team had options. the cardinals chose a different option -- and then stubbornly stuck with it for six weeks, until they'd run their #2 starter into the ground.

whatever the outcome for mark mulder going forward, la russa and duncan will have to answer for it.

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Good post
Unfortunately, they will not "answer for it". If history has proven anything, that much is true.

by PhatAlbert on Jun 24, 2006 10:09 AM EDT reply actions  

How Dusty-esque
it's odd, we've always beat up Dusty Baker for his poor management of pitchers, riding Prior and Wood so much a few seasons back to get to October, yet La Russa and Duncan have done something with Mulder (and other players) that is perhaps more irresponsible and could have/might still lead to further debilitation of an important player.

by Ryan Van Bibber on Jun 24, 2006 10:12 AM EDT reply actions  

What's striking
to me is the contrast with how they handled Carp's bursitis, which cropped up after his May 19 start. My impression is that they actually did handle that one conservatively and properly.  Carp missed a couple of starts, we got some quality Reyes time, and all was well.

By your timeline, lboros, this post-dates the crucial Mulder decisions, so it's possible they  they learned from the Mulder mistakes. Or perhaps it's just the difference between the two pitchers -- Carp too valuable to take be taking any chances.

A pretty damning post. I suppose the silver lining is that it might open up chances for Reyes/Wainwright/Tankersley  to show what they can do. And surely it'll cut the cost of re-signing Mulder in the off chance that's still in the picture at the end of the season.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 24, 2006 10:33 AM EDT reply actions  

or
(rethinking my own thoughts) maybe the difference is  that DD and TLR can't help but think of Mulder, when  he struggles, as someone who's "fixable"
DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 24, 2006 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

excellent analysis
what strikes me is if they just trusted Reyes, who has showed he's more then capable, then Mulder could've got the neccessary attention he needed.

You would've also thought Mulder knew. He should've said something. This whole time he's been denying everything, but with every start he's costing himself money come December by looking so terrible.

To go even further and toss out conspiracy theories, you wonder if he has had this problem since Oakland, and the A's DID know about it. It's not like Mulder was hitting 92-93 last season, either. But he did in Oakland. It wasn't until 04 that he started to really have struggles, but the A's insisted it wasn't anything wrong with his health. Yet his K's keep falling off every year since.  And last year, he changed his approach, becoming much more dependent on GB's, because he couldn't blow hitters away any more.

by erik on Jun 24, 2006 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

yes rev
that's what strikes me, too --- they considered it riskier to use reyes than to gamble with mulder.

pretty stark illustration of how their policy vis-vis young pitchers hurts the organization.

by lboros on Jun 24, 2006 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

what's maddening
about that is it shouldn't be that because of this Reyes is forced into the rotation. i think more then half the league would've had Reyes in their starting rotation last season, but with Cardinals it takes a disaster to get him in there.

by erik on Jun 24, 2006 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Paletta
has some culpability in this manner, as well. We went through this with Rolen last year, and with Woody Williams a couple of years before that. Either he is the most incompetent diagnostician to come down the pike in a long time, or he's being pressured by the team in some way. Maybe that's why he "retired" last year...

by cardsrul on Jun 24, 2006 10:38 AM EDT reply actions  

it does
seem like we've had more than our share of not-quite-right diagnoses in the last couple of years
DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 24, 2006 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait a sec
Isn't Paletta the new guy?  The one Rolen asked for?  

IIRC the guy who misdiagnosed Rolen resigned last year.

by sdrone on Jun 24, 2006 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm
Or maybe not.  I find a 2003 article associating him with the CArds.  

Now I gotta find out who did Rolen's second surgery.

by sdrone on Jun 24, 2006 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

No..
he's the "old" guy. He supposedly retired from the team last year to go into private practice. Not sure what the deal is...

by cardsrul on Jun 24, 2006 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

self-diagnosis
Tony and Dunc seem to place a lot of value on a player's self diagnosis. with Mulder, Rolen, and Pujols there was insistence from each that they were fine and healthy - that seemed to have as much sway as any Dr's conclusion.

when is this team going to shitcan Paletta?

by Ryan Van Bibber on Jun 24, 2006 11:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Another idea...
This comes from no real source, just a gut feeling that the plan for Reyes since ST has been nothing but a chip they will use to acquire a big bat.  
If that was their mentality, they then had two options:
  1.  What they did:Keep Mulder pitching, keep Reyes down in Memphis where his stats were good, thus keeping his trade value high.
  2.  Call Reyes up and rest Mulder at the risk of Reyes just getting killed at the MLB and ruining his trade value.  
Perhaps there was a decision in the organization that Mulder isn't worth anything, just a bad result of a bad trade and let him keep pitching and walk in the off season.  They believe in Wainwright more to fill into the rotation next season and didn't want to risk the  potential trade value Reyes could lose by replacing him with Mulder.  
Freezing in Wisconsin.

by WiscCard on Jun 24, 2006 11:41 AM EDT reply actions  

trading Reyes
On Miklasz's radio show Friday, Jocketty apparently said Reyes is, and always has been, a guy they wouldn't trade. I'm inclined to accept that at face value. They might have been a bit slow to see that he was ready, but they're not blind to the value of a quality starter who's as cheap as Reyes will be for the next several years.
DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 24, 2006 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks...
for sharing Walts thoughts.  I wish I was back in STL to be able to get the coverage you all get.  
Freezing in Wisconsin.

by WiscCard on Jun 24, 2006 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not ..
... actually in St. Louis. Miklasz posts a lot of useful info on his forum on the P-D website. Discussion on the forum itself not nearly as good as here -- too much cyberyelling and defensiveness for my taste --  but Bernie often has things well ahead of others and sometimes exclusive stuff. You can search just by his comments, which is what I do.
DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 24, 2006 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish...
I had the certitude you guys seem to have. As Jocketty put it:

"I think if you took an MRI of every veteran pitcher in the game there's a good chance you would find fraying to some extent."

Major league players play through pain, especially major league pitchers. It's the nature of the beast. Edmonds said a while back that they'll call you stupid if you try to play through it and gutless if you don't. Sometimes they'll call you both.

I don't know anybody who doesn't take these kinds of risks. There's the moron who nearly ran his Canyonero over me in a parking lot last night and don't get me started on the stock market. I don't like the way the Cardinals have handled the PR aspects of injuries -- the corporate mentality of never admitting negatives -- but calculated risks are very much a part of the game.

by Rob H on Jun 24, 2006 11:54 AM EDT reply actions  

yes risks are part of the game
and these guys took one. but when the warning signs started cropping up -- the san diego start, the chicago start, the milwaukee start -- they seem to have ignored the warning signs.

if it was a reasonable risk to keep mulder on the mound in may ---- and i'll accept that argument, because mulder seemed to be pitching without impairment --- do you think it was reasonable to keep him out there after three consecutive blowout starts?

as for jocketty's statement about the MRI thing --- just sounds like spin to me.

by lboros on Jun 24, 2006 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of that
who do you think is the impetus behind it? Is it WJ, DeWitt, Lamping, TLR? These guys are making Bellichick look like a loudmouth..

by cardsrul on Jun 24, 2006 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any GM who leaves a
play-or-don't-play decision, re an injured player, to a field manager is an idiot.  Of course, I always assumed that a manager who is clearly in no danger of being fired (e.g., TLR) might be an exception to that rule.  I guess I was wrong. In TLR's case, the motivation is different: his own ego and hard-ass personality, as opposed to fear of being canned.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 24, 2006 12:18 PM EDT reply actions  

That's a silly statement
THe manager has much more experience with the player than the GM or team doctors do.   He talks to them every day.  Watches them every day.  Sees their habits.

Yes, he has to balance all that with trying to win, but the doctor does as well.  

by sdrone on Jun 24, 2006 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

But of course now
we're hearing things from outsiders about Mulder's mechanics that our manager apparently didn't see ... or didn't interpret correctly.

And this is a guy who trotted Rolen out there day after day last year when everyone else could see that the guy's arm was about to fall off.

There are plenty of other people -- coaches, players, trainers, front office people and some fans -- who see as many games as TLR does.  I stand by my statement.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 24, 2006 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brilliant move by TLR and Duncan to keep Mulder..
...a Cardinal.  Run him out there and make him appear to have serious shoulder questions for the durability in his career.  Drive down the market on him, makes no shot of a 5 year deal from anyone, resign him in the offseason for less to only a 4 year deal, comes back healthy as a good #3!  Brilliant!

Or not.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2006 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that this situation...
is demonstrative evidence of their plans NOT to keep Mulder. Could it be that their treatment of Carpenter with his shoulder problems, that is, conservative and cautious treatment, is reflective of the fact that he's under contract beyond this year, and a cornerstone of our current roster?

And further, could it be that their willingness to take a serious risk with Mulder is reflective of their intention to let him walk after the season's end?

by lawman3842 on Jun 24, 2006 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

unrelated to keeping him
I don't think this proves anything regarding their intentions with Mulder.  If they wanted to get rid of him, they'd want him to pitch well so he'd earn them a high draft pick upon departure.

Regardless of what happens after the season, the Cards want Mulder to well for the sake of the team.  Contract issues are Jocketty's domain.

by john vb on Jun 24, 2006 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
Well written, lboros -- good job tying together a ton of loose ends.

I think this has been an ongoing problem for quite a while.  Healthy pitchers of Mulder's age don't lose 8 mph off their fastballs.

by whopperman on Jun 24, 2006 1:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Mulder
I can see Mulder doing what Matty Mo did last season. I can see him signing an incentive laden 1 yr deal here before leaving via free agency. As far as the cardinals handling of Mulder. I don't think there is anything wrong with it.  They knew they were gambling and so did Mulder. They asked him if he could pitch and he said yes. So they ran him out there. TLR and Duncan have probably seen it 1000 times. Most of the time the pitcher pitches through it and everything is fine.  This time it is nothing major. He isn't lost for the season.  They took a gamble and lost. But atleast it was a good bet.

by endlessticketscom on Jun 24, 2006 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

we don't know
whether this is major or not. if he comes back healthy and his shoulder is strong, then there's no harm done -- well, no harm beyond the harm that's already done, viz. the 4 losses mulder incurred by pitching when unhealthy, and the 3 weeks (at least) he will miss while recuperating.

but if he comes back healthy, those are not catastrophic losses.

what bothers me is the possibility that the shoulder injury was a direct result of their gamble. it's one thing to gamble on a guy who already has a sore arm, throw him out there and see if he can still get hitters out. it's another thing to take a guy whose arm is healthy and, by having him pitch when he isn't healthy, create a sore arm through imprudent usage.

if tony/dunc are guilty of that, then it's not a good bet.

by lboros on Jun 24, 2006 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing major?
You have to wait until he comes back to say it was "nothing major".

What if resting him doesn't improve his shoulder? Then it's surgery and he will be out the rest of the season. The same thing happened to Rolen. He rested his shoulder, came back and was not healthy, had surgery and was out the rest of the season.

I'm hoping that rest will help Mulder but whenever a pitcher has a shoulder problem you can't say it's nothing major.

by jdubya on Jun 24, 2006 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good bet?
They were gambling that Mulder wouldn't get worse and he did. The safe option was to rest him early in the season and bring up our triple-a ace -- who would benefit from the exposure in big leagues anyway -- to fill in for Mulder. While we're not privy to all the information they have, I'm strongly inclined to consider it a very poor bet; at best. To top it off, it seems completely unnecessary, since it wasn't needed and there was nothing to be gained if they won.

It seems like a pretty poor gamble to me and I find it quite disappointing, because I thought TLR was known as an intelligent coach?

by rob is back on Jun 24, 2006 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice historiography
LB.  This is just one more reason that I fundementally think Paletta is a scurge for this team: he says basically what LaDunca want to hear.  At least Weinberg will occasionally sound the voice of caution, if it really exists at all, in the dugout.   Four for Four night or no, the possiblity for a reinjury to El Hombre still exists, and I have too many memories of Rolen's 2005 to breathe easy watching the big guy for awhile yet.

by birdie on Jun 24, 2006 2:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post
And very well written.

Here's hoping that something will finally be done in the situation, so that Mulder will be able to contribute at some point this season.

http://redbirdfever.mlblogs.com

by Tiffany on Jun 24, 2006 2:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice detective work
lb, thanks for pulling all this together. As someone who has wondered about Mulder's fall from form, as I gather a lot of us have, you've done a great job pulling all the information together.

http://player2bnamedl8r.mlblogs.com/

"I'm the player to be named later." - Crash Davis (Kevin Costner)

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 24, 2006 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Situation was mishandled...
lboros, I totally agree with you. This situation with Mulder and Reyes was totally mishandled.

I'm not sure Tony/Dunc could have pulled him on May 8, especially with Mulder saying he was healthy. However, they definitely should have pulled Mulder after the Milw start. He was laboring and had 3 successive "stinkers" as Tony would say.

What would have been the harm in pulling Mulder and giving him an MRI to MAKE SURE he was healthy? Reyes already had made 2 solid starts and could have filled in nicely.

I think management has been to stubborn with regards to using Reyes. Imagine if no one was injured. Reyes would still be in AAA.

by jdubya on Jun 24, 2006 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

thanks dubya
i'll acknowledge that you can take a more generous view and suggest that sitting mulder down in may wasn't realistic.

but i still think it was. case in point: last august they skipped him for one turn in the rotation with a minor neck ailment --- the august 27 game, which jason marquis famously started instead, on short rest, and won with a 3-hit shutout. it was just a precautionary measure --- they didn't want something minor to become major.

they might easily have made the same calculation back in may. as will carroll put it at the time, they have two alternatives: pitch him and get him some rest, just to make sure; or gamble and have him pitch through it.

you state the other half of this very well: however you feel about their decision to keep mulder pitching in may, it was pretty clear by early june that he was not healthy --- and they very stubbornly insisted he was.

by lboros on Jun 24, 2006 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

standings
We also had a 12.5 game lead over the Astros on August 27th.

If they knew the risk was for exactly this type of injury to crop up, then I'd say it was a fair gamble, because even if they lose, it's not major.  But the troubling thing is they had no way of predicting the severity of any potential arm injury that would result from playing through the back pain.

The most frustrating aspect is that we all know it wouldn't have been detrimental to give him the rest and let Reyes take a turn or two, but for whatever reason, TLR and Dunc don't seem comfortable enough with Reyes.  Hopefully his results speak for themselves and he can gain the confidence of his management team.

by john vb on Jun 24, 2006 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Post of the year so far
Just simply excellent.  A lot of thought and analysis, regardless of whether you agree or don't.

I happen to agree.  I honestly wouldn't expect a player to admit they aren't feeling well to often.  Part of the warrior mentality a ML player has developed from years of competition.  Or taking one for the team.

A player like Albert may be able to say "I can't go" and that's OK (because he plays 160+ games per year and has shown he'll gut through anything), but I suspect most players would feel less comfortable taking off time.

This situation does make me question the judgement, not necessarily the competence off the management group.  I agree that WJ's statement regarding frayed labrums is merely spin.

I don't expect honest commentary from TLR/DD/WJ.  And that isn't an indictment.  I think it might consitute in their eyes offering a competitve disadvantage.  You don't want the competition to know anything.  Keep them guessing.

The proof is in the results.  Their handling of situations has it's logic, but if the results don't bear it ourt, as with Mulder/Reyes, then we are correct to question it.

And I would agree it has been mismanaged.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 24, 2006 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

You're right, they
are doing what you'd probably expect them to do in this situation.

Does this mean it's ownership's job to put the brakes on sometimes?  Unfortunately, it may be.

Maybe the Birds can hire a VP of Common Sense to whisper things in WJ's ear at certain times.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 24, 2006 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe there's a positive outcome...
Things are looking bleak for the Cards right now but maybe this could be good for the Cards later in the season.

Reyes will get more than a few starts. This will give him a good test instead of just a start once in awhile. Maybe he establishes himself and Tony/Dunc can't send him back to AAA. Look at Wainwright. He is now an integral part of the bullpen. So much so, that Tony/Dunc don't want to start him unless they have no other option.

Mulder rests his shoulder (and back) for a month or more and regains his velocity. He comes back for the stretch run and helps pitch the Cards into the playoffs.

Ponson is out of the picture. Perhaps sent to the bullpen or given his outright release.

Marquis is traded for a left-fielder. I'm not sure who we could get but hey, I'm trying to stay positive.

by jdubya on Jun 24, 2006 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

and our 5th starter is?
if you subtract Marquis via the trade and Ponson via DFA, and only add Reyes, who pitches on the fifth day?

that's an awful lot of movement for a first-place team. i'm not sure Tankersley can be trusted, so we're gonna have to keep Marquis or Ponson.

at this point, i say get Mulder right (as right as he can get), pitch Reyes, hope that Ponson keeps it together for a few weeks until Mulder gets back and then DFA him. I'd feel okay in the playoffs with a Carp/Mulder (if healthy)/Reyes/Suppan rotation, and Marquis in emergency/long relief.

in the long run, i'd feel alright with a Carp/Reyes/Wainwright/Suppan/Marquis rotation, if nothing else can be done. i gotta feeling that Marquis' ego will have him leaving StL next year, tho.

by kindred on Jun 24, 2006 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see your point but...
I'm not worried about a 5th starter. Bring up Tankersley or even John Webb. OK, wait, I didn't mean that.

I want a team that can win in the playoffs. A 5th starter will help us win regular season games but is not much help in the playoffs.

I know, you have to win in the regular season to make the playoffs but we play in a soft division and even the NL is soft in general. I think we can make it without Marquis and we can use another bat.

Remember Travis Smith?! He actually started 10 games in 2002 for a team that won 97 games and won the division. That was the same season Simontacchi won 11 games for the Cards.

Can Tank pitch as well as Ponson? Maybe. If not, then Ponson would be our 5th and not be released.

All of this is dependent on Mulder getting healthly and coming back and pitching well. If this doesn't happen, then we are in real trouble. We'll need much more than a 5th starter.

by jdubya on Jun 24, 2006 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're right...
... if Mulder doesn't come back strong, it will increase the necessity of keeping Suppan/Marquis and having them pitch well. if all we've got is Carp, an unknown in Reyes that we're all assuming is going to pitch well enough to be our #2, then we don't deserve to win the division, much less make noise in the playoffs.

we have a few "known" commodities: Carp, Suppan, Mulder, and Marquis. perhaps they are all regressing for different reasons (injuries, moving back toward career numbers, etc.), but we have to have those guys perform as they are capable or we risk losing the division. it seems pretty clear that we won't be able to obtain Smoltz, Willis, or Schmidt, so we'll have to make do with what we've got. that would be fine... if these guys would pitch as they are capable.

by kindred on Jun 24, 2006 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good post!
Lets hope TLR/Duncan have seen the light after Ant's 1 hitter. All the pieces need to fall together and they need to do it pretty damn quick. Hope the fresh air in the rotation wakes up the others (hello Marquis, paying attention?) and gets this team back on track.

by Neuronix on Jun 24, 2006 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

what i don't understand is this
if they found something wrong when they sent him back to st. louis to be examined back in may, what was the motivation to have him try and gut it out? what's the benefit of taking that risk, other than maybe a couple of good starts? it just doesn't add up if you ask me. there is just too much risk and not enough reward involved. that leads me to believe that it had to have been some kind of misdiagnosis.
The St. Louis Cardinals: No Curses, No Excuses, Just Wins

by amettrick on Jun 24, 2006 3:56 PM EDT reply actions  

I wonder too
What they hoped to gain by gambling, that is.

IIRC, we were still trying to put things together back then and the division was still pretty hazy. Maybe they believed it was too important to establish themselves atop the division to give Mulder some rest? That doesn't make me feel any better about their competence, but I'm not sure that a misdiagnosis is any better.

I can't think of anything that would excuse them from fault here.

by rob is back on Jun 24, 2006 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

A good post LB, but
your whole analysis rests on the assumption that his shoulder trouble resulted from the back injury.  There is certainly the possibility that it did, but there is no real evidence that it did.  Your statement that he pitched several quality starts after the back problem argues against the relationship.  So even though you advocated for caution, there is a little second guessing here.

I am also amused by the fact that commentors who now are bad mouthing TLR and DD for making poor Mulder pitch with a bad arm were busy calling Mulder a quiter and gutless when he pitched poorly.  For shame--

AS long as I'm being the gadfly, I'll add another word of dissent, regarding the prevailing wish to blame Paletta.  I have no brief or personal reason to defend him, but when a player (or any patient) says it feels fine, I have no pain or limitation, then there is rarely any benefit to order a bunch of tests.  Diagnosis is always obvious in retrospect, so I think there is more unjustified second guessing here, too. For shame again.

by oldbirdwatcher on Jun 24, 2006 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

the medical stuff
is your domain old bird, and you know i respect your opinion. but in response:

first, my complaint isn't against paletta; it's against la russa / dunc. the last line of the post says it's those two who will have to answer for mulder's health; not paletta. it is tony/dunc's responsibility to manage the team's resources (players), and wise stewardship sometimes means that you impose caution and shut a player down, even if the player and the doctor say he can play.

obviously, something wasn't right; otherwise, why was mulder flying back to st louis to see doc paletta in the first place? so even when doc paletta said, "i can't find anything specifically wrong with this body," it was still the manager's option to say, "well that's great news; fantastic news. something still isn't right, so let's play it safe anyway and give the guy some extra rest. it's too early in the season to be monkeying around."

i, and more knowledgeable people than i, offered that opinion at the time of the injury; it's not a 2d guess.

your 2d point --- there may be no relationship between the back pain and the shoulder --- is more than fair. but at the very least it's a possibility that the two are related; back injuries commonly do lead to arm injuries, which is why back pain trips the alarms to begin with.

mulder has never had an arm injury in his life; it would be quite a coincidence if he suddenly got one on the heels of a back problem, but there was no relationship btween the two.

but it's still possible that they're unrelated, so for the sake of discussion let's assume that they are.  we can then set aside the month of may and focus on june. i still don't understand their decision-making from june 4 forward. it was obvious by then that he was hurt --- guys were spotting the injury from their tv screens, and the beat writers were all asking questions about it; his velocity was way down, his motion looked different, and so did his pitches. and the results spoke for themselves. sending the guy out there three more times ---- well, at the very least it didn't give the team much chance to win on the nights mulder pitched, and at worst it caused his condition to worsen.

the possibility that mulder said "i'm fine," and the training/medical staff said "it's nothing structural," still doesn't get TLR off the hook. it's his job to make independent judgments and do what's best for the sake of the team.

if they'd shut mulder down three starts ago, it would mean a) they might have won some of the games mulder started, instead of losing 20-6; and b) he'd be coming back healthy a few days from now, instead of 3 weeks from now.

i just don't see any upside to the way this way handled. there were a series of decision points, and at each juncture they decided to let him keep pitching. since i and others questioned those decisions at the time, it's not unfair to point out that their decisions haven't worked out very well.

by lboros on Jun 24, 2006 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't guessing what sports fans do?
All that we have to go on is what we're told, and we know that we're not always told the full story, so all we can do is guess. I never considered LBoros' analysis as solid information, but I think that it's a pretty good guess on his part.

I agree with you about the Mulder bashing and I think that we're too overzealous to jump on players having problems in general. But there's some bad history with player's health in St. Louis, and if LBoros' is right, then I don't know how TLR and DD could not be considered irresponsible for continuing to play Mulder.

Apparently Mulder did have some limitation, even if he didn't realize it. LBoros' pointed out that this had been pointed out before by someone on Bernie's Pressbox and I've heard others mention it as well. Perhaps Paletta doesn't deserve any blame here, but you'd think that TLR and/or DD would have noticed it and it seems like that should have been to order some tests. I mean, it's not like people haven't been asking if Mulder is injured for weeks now.

by rob is back on Jun 24, 2006 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can recall
Paletta clearing both Rolen and Woody to play, for weeks, when they were obviously grimacing through games, without pursuing further examination or tests.  It's dastardly enough when a manager doesn't want to believe something's wrong; but, it's downright incompetent for a physician to fail to follow up.  If I call last year, it didn't take but one meeting for the Cinnci doc to pinpoint the problem with ScoRo.

by birdie on Jun 24, 2006 5:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Trade bait
I agree with WiscCard that the Cards were holding Reyes back to give him maximum trade value.  They may not trade him -- probably won't -- but wanted to have option if someone like Cabrera is dangled.  Once he came up and was mediocre for a few games, his value would have dropped.  Of course now, it's off the charts.

by dancurry on Jun 24, 2006 5:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I think TLR and Dunc do deserve much of the blame
but I also think Mulder has also earned a large part of it. I realize there is an "I'm tough and can gut it out" mentality in baseball, but I think he has a responsiblity to his teammates to admit if he is injured.

Saying "Coach, I think I'm hurt and I don't feel like I can win it for us if I go out there" would qualify as "taking one for the team" more than playing hurt would, in my opinion. Especially if there are better options (Reyes) available.

Sometimes taking a seat is the best way to help your team win (it always worked for me). I don't know if Mulder's denials were due to his competitive nature, or fear of lowering his trade value. Watching his body language on the mound when he's getting pummelled, I can't help but feel it's probably the latter.

"I love watching your ass when you walk, is that beautiful or what!"

by iron duke75 on Jun 24, 2006 11:33 PM EDT reply actions  

But he claims he didn't know?
I would agree with you, but everything that I've read has said Mulder didn't realize that he had a physical problem. I've questioned this myself, but it doesn't make sense to me that he would want to tough it out. His injury isn't (or wasn't) that serious and I can't imagine him seeing any benefit in playing through it to raise his trade value.

by rob is back on Jun 25, 2006 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess there's no way we can know for sure
I suppose it is natural to assume that if someone has an injury that they would be aware of it. But I have never had a frayed labrum, so I have no idea how it feels, or if indeed you can feel it at all.

Maybe he didn't know. But if he did and was just hiding it, then he wasn't being fair to the rest of the team.

Regardless, I hope it is something he can come back from. It sure would be nice to have the Oakland-vintage Mulder in our rotation. Hell, at this point, it would be nice to have the 2005 Mulder back...

"I love watching your ass when you walk, is that beautiful or what!"

by iron duke75 on Jun 25, 2006 1:01 AM EDT reply actions  

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