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pissed on earth

Birdos_avatar_tiny by lboros on in St. Louis Cardinals News

hey best fans in baseball; it's okay to be pissed.

i mean, how could you not pissed after the last two nights' drubbings?

i guess you could shrug them off as two meaningless losses in a long, long season; you could console yourself with the knowledge that the cards have weathered albert's 15-game (so far) absence with their division lead intact; you could look forward to this evening, when we get treated to another rare glimpse of an intriguing young pitcher; you could look forward to next week, when pujols will presumably be back in uniform.

those would all be rational reactions. so would being pissed.

why be pissed? be pissed that the team that embarrassed ours the last two nights did everything the cardinals didn't this past off-season --- viz., honestly assess its roster weaknesses and hungrily seek upgrades. be pissed that the pitcher who beat the cardinals tuesday night, javy vazquez, might have been st louis' #2 starter if the owners had been willing to pick up some salary. be pissed that the flabby underbelly chicago has slashed open -- the starting rotation -- has been jocketty's overriding concern since last november, yet remains unimproved. be pissed that the player now charged with restoring order to this shambles of a staff, anthony reyes, has been needlessly trapped in the minors all year and just a few days ago was dismissively termed "not ready" by the cardinal manager.

don't be pissed at the st louis players; they're putting forth honest effort, almost to a man. they've fought courageously and admirably through pujols' absence; no faulting them. i won't even fault last evening's punching bag, jason marquis, who manfully hung in there 5 innings to spare the bullpen, at the cost of a mushrooming welt on his earned-run average -- and a commensurate reduction in the value of the contract offers he'll field this autumn. jason no doubt wants to cash in after the season, but he apparently wants to win a championship more.

alas, those priorities seem to be held in reverse order at stadium plaza. while the white sox -- who after going 11-1 last october had every reason to be complacent -- were aggressively addressing their roster's flaws last winter, the cardinals made a conscious choice to live with theirs, and take solace in the 81 sellouts and the token playoff appearance.

best fans, you deserve better. better than another empty division title; better than a bunch of forgettable wins against milwaukee and pittsburgh and kansas city; better than the tell-em-what-they-want-to-hear dissembling of the team brass. we deserve a full-on commitment to winning a championship at every level of the organization. we're seeing what that looks like during the cards' visit to comiskey -- on the white sox half of the diamond. and we're seeing just how far behind that organization we lag. the magnitude of the beatings may exaggerate the effect -- indeed, the scores are so farcical that it becomes easy to pretend the games never happened. but as a gauge of the cards' title-worthiness, these two games are no aberration. they're a depressingly accurate illustration of what we already knew before the series began: these cards are too flawed to go all the way.

you deserve better, dammit; be pissed. be pissed that the cards were too cautious to deal one of the walk-year pitchers during spring training, when those guys still had some trade value. be pissed that the open sore in left field has been allowed to fester all season, without treatment. be pissed that, moving forward, the options for rebalancing the roster for october are very limited -- and not very promising.

some bestfans believe that being pissed is at odds with "supporting the team" and therefore suppress negative emotions; very unhealthy. others refuse to get pissed because they think it's a  sin committed only by very evil fans from impure places like new york and philadelphia; another fallacy. you can be angry, even disgusted, and still be a great fan who loves his/her team; discernment and high standards are likewise permitted. exercise them. be pissed. your BFIB membership credentials will not be revoked, nor will you be barred from busch iii -- and the cardinals' self-esteem will not suffer a fatal collapse.

this is not about the last two games. it's about the 7 months of complacency that led up to them. be pissed about that, bestfan. be pissed and stay pissed until this organization proves itself worthy of your devotion. keep rooting like hell for the players; they're worthy. but the men in the suits evidently don't care as much as you do.

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I find myself
more pissed that our player development has been so poor for so long.

One of the big reasons the Sox could go and get Thome and Vasquez is their system depth.

They could afford to send Rowand to Philly and Chris Young to Arizona. We, on the other hand, seem to have only a couple of chips to place on the table... and that's shameful.

by Matt @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 22, 2006 9:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Because we already dealt them?
Isn't this because we've already dealt most of them away throught the past 8-9 years?  The reason we've been consistently good the past seasons is by always trading away our young talent for reliable veterans.

At some point you run out of young talent and then you just have old veterans that when they fail aren't worth that much.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 22, 2006 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll second that.
Now we're just seeing the world as most of the rest of baseball experiences it.

Is it OK to be pissed at both management, which is guilty of most (but not all) of what Iboros is accusing them of, and also be pissed at fans who don't realize that we can't go a whole decade without rebuilding?

At management that won't allow young starting pitchers to pitch in the majors, and that won't give certain young bench players an honest chance to show us whether they can be legitimate major leaguers or not ...

And at fans who won't stop talking about Grudz and Sanders as if they were going to win us a WS? As if they were EVER anything but tinkering around the edges?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2006 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow interesting
So it is your assessment that this team is in a rebuilding phase.  Hmmm...

If that is the case, why has that not been mentioned anywhere at any level of the organization?  Why are we not trading the veterans and receiving prospects, either in ST or now?

I don't disagree with what you are saying about rebuilding phases, but the point seems counter intuitive to all current and recent indications.

With regard to your message about Grudz or Sanders, don't think for a second, I'm some kind of idiot.  Grudz, Sanders et al are NOT championship caliber players.  Pujols, Rolen, Carp are.  But you need quality ancillary or secondary players as well.  Are you trying to tell me Miles, Spivey or Juan E. are better than what we lost?

I don't buy that argument.  You may not buy mine, but don't be dismissive and suggest I am saying they were our championship hopes.  I know better.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

i don't see the team
rebuilding. a rebuilding team privileges youth over experience. this team has done the exact opposite. it's a team built to win now . . . sort of.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK, hold on ...
I do NOT mean that the team is rebuilding now, since it clearly is not. My bad for being unclear. What I'm saying is that we have bought into the fiction that we can go for it every year like the Yankees do, when we clearly cannot.  (Some fans who are particularly sour about the owners would probably say it's not so much a matter of CANnot as WILL not.)

My point is that winning the WS means being good enough to go into Yankee Stadium or Fenway and win 2 games. Not good enough to get to the WS and hope you get lucky, but good enough to really match up in that situation, good enough that smart people will bet money on you to do that. Even the '04 Cardinals were clearly not good enough to do that. And clearly the NL in general is not good enough to do that right now.

So I'm saying we're aiming too low.

I'm saying that the time to start rebuilding is now, and maybe even that last year was the time to start rebuilding. We don't have the resources to do this on the fly in mid-season. And maybe some ugly mediocre baseball for a couple of years is the price we have to pay.

My point about Sanders/Grudz is that as long as we keep thinking that plugging guys like them into this team is going to help, we're aiming too low.  Letting them walk was the right thing to do.  Replacing them with Miles and Taguchi was not.

Ultimately I think we agree on a lot of these things.  I just think that a more dramatic overhaul is needed than many fans do.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2006 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

ok i misread
you're right --- i do agree with you, up to a point. but while it may be a fiction that we can't go for it every year, now is the time to go for it. the cardinals haven't had a core like pujols-carpenter to build around for many decades, and won't have such a core for many decades hence. they have a rare opportunity now to build the type of team that can play with anybody.

and they're blowing it.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your post makes a lot of sense.
I agree that rebuilding needs to be effective.  But I think there needs to be one more push this year and then blow it up.  A lot of pitchers in walk years, Edmonds in his last year.

With these pieces here for one final go 'round, trade some and supplement the core for one last shot, then rebuild.

Clearly Pujols and Carp are foundation pieces, but Izzy is aging, as is Edmonds.

The bullpen is younger in larger part and in that is hope.

But I still think ther eis one more shot ot be had.

And you and I are in complete agreement about where the team needs to be, i.e. be able to go into Fenway, Yankee Stadium, Comiskey et al and win two.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, we're really caught
in a dilemma.  Good enough to be a playoff team, not good enough to be a champion, not enough resources to make ourselves a champion in the short term, and not quite enough long-term hope in the farm system to make rebuilding look like it might be fun.

And when you look at our strongest current assets -- Albert, ScoRo and Carp -- you have to ask how good they will be in 2008 or 2009?  I'm confident Albert will still be Da Man by then, but what about the other 2?  And if you figure Carp and Scott will have declined by then, should we be thinking about flipping them earlier?

All of this presupposes consistent behavior from our owners, i.e., knowing they won't go all Steinbrenner on us and make this problem disappear by writing some big checks.

Sheesh, it makes my head hurt.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2006 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, youth be served
scotty and carp are not off limits.  

by BigJawnMize on Jun 22, 2006 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dealing Rolen?
That would be a BAD idea.  Guy's in his age-31 season, yes, but there's no reason to think that he's suddenly going to turn into Gary Gaetti.

Unless dealing Rolen will replace him with Miguel Cabrera, hang on to 27.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 22, 2006 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know,
that might be the beginning of a plausible 3-team deal if Rolen didn't have a no-trade.  Not to mention that it would only marginally improve the team in the short term, but the current situation calls for creatitivity, ya know?

by Valatan on Jun 22, 2006 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the time is now
Boz, the way that Albert was playing, I was thinking the same thing about making a push.  If this was his career year why waste it.  Last offseason I was thinking that we needed to rebuild.  The reason is that I think the available talent is thin.  During the offseason, the Marlins got good value for their players because the likes of JuanE and Jacques were the free agent options.  Now who can be had around the league with trades?  Not alot of people.  It is time to be sellers.  I love eck, jimmy, izzy, but the only players that are off limits are scotty, pooh, carp and maybe molina, wainwright, reyes (because of youth).  Heck I would be willing to trade carp and scotty if the haul was out of this world.

by BigJawnMize on Jun 22, 2006 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Amen to you both
I am pissed and bemused at the same time.

This is the chickens coming home to roost.  No depth in minor league talent, though I will defer to DanUpBaby's assessment of that.

No significant increase in budget this year, despite additional revenue streams.

No significant talent increases to the rotation, with only Looper an addition via free agency.  Kudos to the Cards for adding Wainwright to the bullpen.

No significant increases to the lineup.  Letting Grudz and Sanders go for a reclamation project in Spivey that didn't pan out, Miles who has been servicable and J Enc., who though he has stepped up in Albert's absence, has a career history of questional OPS numbers, especially for a corner outfielder.

A GM, manager and pitching coach who are working hard to be sure, but comments like "We've tried everything and we're not sure what do do next" do not inspire confidence.  Or choosing to focus on the positives in the face of multiple poor starts as TLR did with Mulder smacks of denial, or mere platitudes for the media, and by proxy the fans.

Say what you want about the Yankees and to a lesser extent the Red Sox and White Sox, but they are out there spending and trying to win every year.  Some of the moves are questionable, but there is a commitment at every level of their organization to win every year.

If I'm a fan of the NYY or BOS, I know it is budget be damned and they will make deals to win and win now.  Losses in the divion series or league championship series, or even the World Series are not enough.  They want a World Championship.  So do I.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 9:43 AM EDT reply actions  

And to be clear,
I think the rotation is our biggest concern.  I felt so in ST and was hoping to sign Burnett.  I was wrong about that.

Our offense has done pretty well this year.

But to have a staff of #1 and three or four #3 or 4 starters does not seem to work.  The ChiSox ostensibly had 5 #2 starters last year, but I would argue that.

And knowing that formula doen't work - for a World Series championship and doing nothing frustrates the heck out me.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I honestly don't trust...
... this to be the real difference between the Cards and the White Sox. Some of our pitchers are sucking now, but the holes in LF and 2B are open no more and we are scoring even without Albert. The real problem is if our pitchers are recoverable or not, because in the latter hypotesis, we have to trade for at least a pitcher AND to bring Reyes up. In the former hypotesis, it is enough to wait, trying to stay in the playoff until they recover.

GO CARDS!!

by SuperSeve on Jun 22, 2006 9:45 AM EDT reply actions  

yes, wait and see
and hope for the best. that is what we're left with; that's currently our best and most sensible option.

but that weak option is our best one only because the team failed to act when better options were available.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rotation

id fuckin deactivate mulder and dump ponson. maybe 15 days on the DL will make mulder grow a pair of testicles, or at the very least get the sand out of his huge man-vagina..

marquis gets a pass from me cause the guy has some guts at ;east.

please for the love of god put wainwright AND reyes in the rotation, wainwright's bullpen role means absolute shit if your starters are bums..plus we signed looper to be the 8th inning guy. if he cant handle it fire his ass too.

Carpenter
Wainwright
Reyes
Suppan
Marquis

then could call up falkenborg to take wainwrights place in the bullpen.

and quit fuckin around with timo perez in the outfield, just put duncan in left

im embarassed for our team right now..we have given up 33 runs the last two games...

by 2ndprize on Jun 22, 2006 9:51 AM EDT reply actions  

MArquis
stunk out loud last night and got pummeled because of it.  And I'm not a fan of his at all.

But you are right.  He has a lot of guts.  He kept going out to eat innings in a lost cause and even approached TLR to say he could go in the 6th to save the bullpen, according to the P-D website.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

And Wainright's role
as a starter means absolute crap if our bullpen starts acting like, say, the Cubs bullpen of last year.

I'd vote for leaving Wainright where he is.   We need the arm in the pen (WHOA a pitcher who has a fastball over 90 mph!)   We also don't need to create an opportunity for an injury by making a major change to his role and his routine.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
You guys got your banner ready for the next homestand?

by bellyscratcher on Jun 22, 2006 9:52 AM EDT reply actions  

OT..Better Manager
I was just curious with Detroit on the horizon how the better manager is Tony or Jim Leyland.  Just looking at what Leyland has been able to do with less talent (perception) than Tony has.  Could Tony have gone to the Tigers and done the same thing this far into the season?

This is not a bash Tony thread.  I am curious because I have often seen it asked who would we get to replace Tony.  It seems we had one guy already in the house.

by TexasCard on Jun 22, 2006 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it's
Oquendo's job to have, if he's still around when TLR decides to leave.

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Am I pissed?
Hell yes, why shouldn't I be?I'm also embarrassed, frustrated, and ready to burn Bill DeWitt in effigy. My one saving grace is that I'm 800 miles away from ground zero, so I can't go storming into the front offices threatening bodily harm to the powers that be.

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I could just see
a rendition of Loki (Matt Damon) in the executive offices of Mooby Inc. in the Kevin Smith flick, Dogma, shooting everybody in the office, except for the true innocent. But threatening to do so because she didn't say, "God bless you".

by Solanus on Jun 22, 2006 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, yeah
LBoros hit the nail on the head, as usual.  Two horrible games are only two games - they count the same as two close losses - plenty of time to make them up.

On the other hand, having only one solid starter, and keeping fingers crossed about 2B and LF, are a result of unsound strategic decisions made when there were wiser choices to be made.

 

by madridbend on Jun 22, 2006 10:05 AM EDT reply actions  

To be fair
Are our fingers really crossed for 2nd base?  Miles has certainly cooled down, but he's doing OK; I think we could plug either Miles or Luna in for extended periods.  

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

2 Games
I agree in 2 respects: 1)Lboros usually hits the nail on the head, and 2) 2 horrible losses are only 2 losses.  

I think what makes these losses so frustrating is that getting beat so badly highlights serious problems with the team.  Problems, as you point out, that could have been corrected in the surprisingly stale off season.  I am also frustrated because I am sick of hearing how much better the American league is, and how the National league team is at such a disadvantage.  (the last two World Series are hard to argue with, I suppose).

by sportsmanspark on Jun 22, 2006 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

but how to show it?
The only feedback that we know the club hears is ticket sales. It's too late to show that we're pissed by not selling out the season....

It seems like a club has 2 options to make a winner: develop talent or buy free agents. The Cardinal's are in no-man's land: many prospects traded away but the purse strings weren't opened to bring in the free agent talent.

by canadia on Jun 22, 2006 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

aren't these the same
two options that they didn't act on this past winter?

by sdesserman on Jun 22, 2006 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

offense
though i am PISSED as hell at the pitching, im pleased with the offense which is an improvement over earlier in the year.  under normal circumstances, putting up 5 and 6 runs/game would be a good thing...it's when our joke of a pitching staff gives up 13 and 20 runs that i start to lose it.  this only further proves how weak the NL really is

by MarcGldstn on Jun 22, 2006 10:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Injured Mulder?
Do you ever get the feeling that we aren't being told the truth?
In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 22, 2006 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Am I missing something?
This is my first post to the group after lurking since Spring Training.  For my Cards credentials, I do have 50 years as a fan and a framed copy of "Stan The Man's Hit Record" over my desk.  

So here's what I don't understand:

When the starting pitching is as bad as it has been for as long as it has been, why haven't I heard anything, anywhere, about Dave Duncan being responsible?  After all, isn't it the pitching coach's job to make sure those guys are ready, willing and able to pitch?  

If they are hurt, and Mulder looks hurt, shouldn't he know, and shouldn't he do something about it?

Being out in the hinterlands, maybe I am missing any journalistic rocks being thrown his way from close range, but from here, he looks like the Teflon Don.  Even here, where Jocketty gets roasted for cancelling a radio interview, Duncan seems to get a pass.

 

by Intheway on Jun 22, 2006 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Duncan looks flabbergasted...
...as to why the pitchers apparently have turned into nutjobs.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bi-Polar pitching
I would be shocked too -- last weekend against the Rockies, we had 3 solid starts and I began to think we actually looked like a good ball club.  Even Marquis was sharp last Friday.  

Then these latest debacles . . .

by sportsmanspark on Jun 22, 2006 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

the rockies are 23d
in the majors in runs scored; the chisox are 1st (and were 3d even before the last two nights). that's the difference.

plus, our one capable pitcher (carpenter) started vs colorado

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

plus
they have over 40 more homeruns than we do.  

by Schnake on Jun 22, 2006 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanks for chiming in
and raising an excellent point. i think you're right, duncan has pretty much gotten a pass; imagine how his lame "i'm at a loss" non-comments after mulder's start tuesday would have gone over in some other baseball towns.

my main problem with duncan isn't his failure to get these pitchers to perform; on the contrary, i think he has got them to pitch beyond their abilities the last two seasons, and they are now reverting to their true level of talent. i fault duncan (and la russa) for poor talent evaluation. most observers --- not only cardinal fans, but neutral observers (stat geeks, rotisserie freaks) -- were flabbergasted that any organization would choose sidney ponson over anthony reyes. it has required a real crisis, a desperate situation, to force la duncan into giving reyes a chance. he is their last resort, but he should have been their first choice.

bernie miklasz takes them to task, mildly, for that failing today ---

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/CC3B048777D8428F862571950 01A1543?OpenDocument

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, at this point....
I think we pretty have go forth with what we have, because the likelihood of acquiring anything worthwhile is slim given our lack of organizational depth.  I can deal with this, though it is very frustrating.....what I won't be able to deal with is the Cardinals screwing around next off season.  Yes, we will have some big holes to fill, but we also will have a lot of money to spend and some very cheap MLB players on our roster.

Cheapies for 2007: Molina, Luna, Duncan?, Thompson, Wainwright, Reyes, backup C, one more bench spot, one more reliever....that is a minimum of 9 cheapies I think....

My wish list for 2007: Say thank you to Cardinal nation and give Soriano $$$$$$$...and sign LH Doug Davis....then I can forgive the complacency of 2006.

by stanchar @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 22, 2006 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow
bernie's really let himself go since I've left the StL

by Valatan on Jun 22, 2006 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah....
he's a little less wishy-washy, definitely a stronger columnist than he once was.

by stanchar @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 22, 2006 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Decisions
Where before he might have trouble deciding on the Krispy Kreme or the grapefruit he now quickly chooses the Krispy Kreme ...

by dontEATnachos on Jun 22, 2006 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It may be because
some of me (like me) think it would be even worse if not for DUncan.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I nominate this
for post of the season (so far). It doesn't have the usual wealth of stats and in-depth analysis of numbers you are so good at, but it taps the vein (for me and I'm sure many here) of what has been swimming just below the surface of everything Cardinals since the end of last year. The organization has taken a pass on this team, figuring they'd easily take the division again and that would satisfy. They know the coffers will bust at the seams with cash because of the new stadium, the star power of Albert, and the general goodwill of the fans; they have left Walt and TLR with a strawman of a team that will (probably) have just enough success to allow them the excuse of "it's the injuries" that kept them from going all the way again. And the worst part of what you are oh so right about is that this is it--I want to to trust that Walt has something up his sleeve, but why should we think there's going to be a sudden opening of the purse that would allow him to work any real magic? Those decisions have already been made, and unless he truly is a miracle worker and can find more spare parts (which is what we're gonna end up getting) that suddenly blossom into unexpected glory--don't plan on seeing our boys get much past a division series again (if, in fact, by the end they keep it together to make it that far). By all means, love the players--they have been excellent, especially under duress. But the organization has most definately taken us fans for granted. This is the post I wish I had written yesterday. "Don't Panic" was (and is) a reasonable sentiment, but "Get Pissed" is far better advice. I was willing to see the first Sox game as a once a decade (or two) anamoly, but after last night (and a very good chance of another drubbing tonite--welcome to the fires of hell, Reyes), it's the only response that will keep me from the void of depression and even worse alcoholic stupors. Anger--now there's an emotion I can understand and use.      

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

remember this?
Will Leitch's article on Baseball Prospectus about the Cardinals' offseason:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4749

Not sure if you need the subscription or not, but it's only more true now.  All the extra revenue from opening the upper decks early?  In the bank, and staying there.

8/13/79- Lou Brock 3000 hits

by lb3000 on Jun 22, 2006 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which means we better break the freakin' bank
this offseason. As in, sign Zito to an nine-figure deal, sign Soriano, sign for Carlos Lee, heck, if that Japanese superstar Matzuzaka is posted, sign him!

I want us to be next year's Blue Jays (minus the "sign pitchers with long injury histories" thing, of course)

by craig3410 on Jun 22, 2006 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zito?
At this point, the only A's pitcher I'd be interested in is Danny Haren.  Look at how our last A's pitcher is working out.
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 22, 2006 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being Pissed for Nothing
boros is correct in saying it's o.k. to be pissed.  But what's the point? Perhaps a little anger provides some catharsis, but that's all it does, no more.  The owners of this team could care less if their fans are pissed--they've already deposited the money.  I suppose the fans could boo some more (and as boros pointed out in the WSJ article, booing the players is really booing the owners), but what's it going to accomplish?  Nothing.  They don't care.

Short of abandoning the team, nothing will change the behavior of these greedy bums.  And who in St. Louis is going to abandon the Cardinals?  Not me.  

We're screwed.

by lerwin1 on Jun 22, 2006 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

You are
correct, and that just makes me more pissed.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

On a lighter note
And back to the Mike Shannon thread, after the first inning 3 run homer, you could hear the fireworks going off in the background, Mike Shannon said something like, "There going to be out of fireworks before we leave town.

by secretweapon on Jun 22, 2006 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Funny stuff
I also heard that and thought it was hysterical.

by sportsmanspark on Jun 22, 2006 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

at some point
I also heard him say, "what a revolting development this is."  Classic.
8/13/79- Lou Brock 3000 hits

by lb3000 on Jun 22, 2006 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last time I checked
you guys were still in first place.  I don't see the Reds or the Astronauts catching you.  That White Sox team will make a lot of pitchers look bad, especially in that launching pad they play in.

Anything can happen in the playoffs.  Don't tell me the Marlins were favored in the playoffs in 03.  Don't tell me the White Sox were favorites last year either.  The playoffs are a whole other ballgame.   You just gotta get there, get some breaks and some decent pitching.

Now if you want to see an organization that's REALLY messed up, look at the northside of Chicago.  http://1060west.blogspot.com/2006/06/failure-analysis-2006.html

 

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Jun 22, 2006 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

F-off
and go back to your own site.i don't want to hear about your still in first.There's the dif between our teams we won't settle for crappy teams or players were as you'd just settle for being in first.I guess were acoustom to having a winning team and not making excuses.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

no need to drop an
f bomb or insult brianp. totally uncalled for. if you disagree with his opinion, do it respectfully. the guy is coming in here in a spirit of friendship.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just sick off
all these people who want to sugar coat our crappy team.I love this site but for a cubs fan to come hear and say it ain't so bad just pisses me off.Hell we can't even beat the Cubs.i left off the uck from the f bomb for a reason.I'm really just sad our team shows a sign of a pulse then totally lays an egg.People talk about the playoffs hell with this team thats no given.Let's just face a fact that if Walt does nothing we're screwed!!!!!!!!!!!

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude relax
it's baseball we're talking about.  It's not like the Cardinals blew a chance at world peace or a cancer cure.  Everyone knows there is only one way the Cardinals are going to cure cancer or create world peace and he currently has some lateral oblique problem.  

by secretweapon on Jun 22, 2006 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

no doubt--
I'm all for attacking a troll, especially a Cubs troll, but that was a decent comment that deserves a decent answer. Sorry brianp, but nerves are rather frayed around here.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understood
and I would submit that the last two Cards games will be the worst games you'll see this year.  IMO the Cards are CERTAINLY not as bad as they've shown the last two games.  The season has peaks and valleys.  This is a valley right now.  (How is that for a cliché?)  

Fans do have the right to criticize management over the construction of their team -- my team is the poster boy for that.  

I admire that Cards fans want more than "just a shot" a championship.  IMO, the Cubs and Cards are similar in that they are both going to have huge crowds all year long, no matter how good (or bad in the Cubs case) the product is on the field.  This can lead to one of two things; ownership could spend the revenue on star players OR (like in Chicago) it could lead to ownership apathy, as the GM makes token adjustments to the team and watches as the gate receipts come streaming in.

I sincerely hope BOTH teams put a quality product on the field.  Fans of both teams deserve it and should demand it.

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Jun 22, 2006 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

you'd
be pissed if you were dropping coin to be a season ticket holder.So i guess i have a real right to bitch.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is with people?
I honestly can't believe that people believe this is a bad team and worthy of blowing up.  It's almost like we don't have the second best record in the NL.  The Cardinals have dominated the NL East and West.  The pitching has gone to pot the last 4 weeks, but the offense is scoring runs.

I don't get it.  Stop the bitching and enjoy a Cardinals team that, offensively, is hitting it's stride without it's best player.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about that pitching?
Offense is great but if you can't stop thier's were just treading water.You can put the kool-aid down and slowly back away!

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean a season ticket
holder who's watching a first place team and, btw, did not pay for tickets to the 2 Sox blowouts?

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen
enough heartbreakers against the Reds,Cubs and a few others so.It's a trend that keeps happening you all act like this is just a fluke that we had a couple of bad games.It's happen more than once thats all I'm saying.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah
we're only in first because the Reds can't win.So if that makes us the better team and you can live with this team thats your deal.I for one won't let the owners take my money and not bitch about how they are just sitting on thier hands this past offseason.When you hear about all the players and moves we could of made but stood pat it will piss you off.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

nl central title is near meaningless to me
i know as soon as i post this some "real cards fans" will come obn and tell me i'm spoiled, but who cares.  llboros is 100% right.  good fans, real fans are good b/c they care and invest real emotions in their team.  that is why it is perfectly ok, to wake everyone in the house when albert goes deep off lidge in game 5 w/unintelligible screaming and why it is equally ok for the family to know the cards are stuck in a rut by the way one grumbles and over breakfast.  being an angry fan is good, it shows one cares about the team as much as shouts of joy.  

yeah we got our asses handed to us, but we also can learn from this.  we can stick w/this club and win the nl central, probably even win the nlds, but wehn we run into the mets or the al winner we will get stomped.  im sorry, but simply winning the nl central got old a few years back.  pujols is a baseball god, carp is on e of the 5 best pitchers in baseball, rolen is still the best overall 3b in baseball...that folks is called a core you can build around.  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, enough screwing around owners!!!!!!!!  we could have had brian giles, javy vazquez, or alfonso soriano this offseason, but wound up w/none of them.  sigh, sorry about rambling, like the rest of you i just needed to rant, and wished the owners cared as much about our beloived team as the fans do.

by duckymedwick7 on Jun 22, 2006 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Appreciate the
sentiment. While there is some truth to "anything can happen in playoffs," it's also true that entering the postseason with the best team is preferable. The Sox may not have been the favorites in pre-season 05, but they lead the AL all that year. They may not have been the favorites going into october, but after the first 2 or 3 games of the ALCS, it was obvious they were going to win it all. They had the best team, by far. Could the Astros have pulled a surprise upset? Sure. But they didn't. The Sox were superior in every way. I was almost (not quite but almost) glad the Birds didn't make it, as I couldn't sit thru another WS sweep after 04. It certainly sucks for you guys that the Cubs organization doesn't even seem to be willing to field better than .500 teams, but our guys have been teasing us the last decade with the WS carrot and then have consistently failed to deliver the teeth we need to eat it. Sure, that makes being a Cardinals fan more fun than being a Cubs fan during the regular season--at least the carrot has been in our hands, but in some ways it's ultimately just as, if not more, aggravating. Remember that laser beam of disappointment you felt in 03--that's us year after year: proud as hell of what transpired to get our team that far, but completely let down that they were left unprepared for the final showdown (I don't subscribe to Bartman or Curses, or in our case The Denkinger Call Of '85--and I doubt you do either). The unexpected does happen, but if your organization allows your team to enter the postseason depending on a miracle, chances are your team is going home early.  

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually
as sad as it sounds...i actually agree with a cubs fan.  *GASP*  remember back in '04 when we were picked to finish third behind the astros and cubs and we bursted back after a lack-huster first half to the WS of all things.  while i do agree that the '04 club had more talent, and we need another strong starter to even catch a hint of the playoffs, its still only June.  better to work our kinks out now than in late september/october.  

also, thanks for your words brian, at least not all of the cubs fans are annoying whiners...

Albert Pujols is god with a lowercase "g". Let's go Redbirds, World Series '06 here we come!

by stlsportsfan on Jun 22, 2006 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey brianp88
Always good to see you drop by.

Last September, I really considered the White Sox "the team to beat" come playoff-time (though I admit I can't say the same about those world champion Marlins teams).  

I think what allowed these championship teams to succeed in the playoff format was their shut-'em-down starting pitching, something which the Cards, year after year, don't have enough of.

What's frustrating to me (and perhaps for most of us here) is that the Cards have never adequately alleviated this Achilles' heal, despite it being the team's undoing the last several Octobers.

The last several years, it's like we have every component for a championship save for one, and the consequences of that missing component bring the entire team down in spectacular form every October.  

I agree with you, though, that luck is indeed part of winning the WS, especially given the post-strike playoff format.  But year after year of the Cardinals falling just short convince me that another shut-em-down starter would give the Cards more "even odds" when matching up with their playoff opponents.  

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 22, 2006 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey Matty
I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I would expect that the Cards are going to make a move to get that "shut-em-down starter" they need.  Or at least a corner outfielder.  

IMO, only the Mets are standing in the way right now.  Anything can happen.  

As they say, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.  At least your yard has grass.  Nothing but weeds on the northside right now...

Take care and good luck.

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Jun 22, 2006 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

this team
isn't a CHAMPIONSHIP caliber team at all.I've said it since mid-may  we need a pitching staff no some sown together staff that has 1 great pitcher.It's history repeating itself all over again see your 01,02,03,04,05,06 teams all have the same thing in common always 1 good pitcher with bums to follow.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Super-pissed
Like all of you, I, too, am pissed right the f off.  But there are some other reasons why I am pissed.

I am pissed because the pitching itself is a joke.  Like I mentioned yesterday, the Cardinals do not have a number two starter, even with Reyes in the rotation.  I do think/hope Mulder will right the ship and become the solid starter that he was last year (don't forget, he won 16 games for us last year).  I don't understand why we aren't calling for Marquis's head anymore.  He gives up 13 runs in 5 innings and we applaud him for it?  Watching the game last night, the runs came in bunches and he couldn't stop the bleeding.  Good for Marquis to be the whipping boy for the White Sox, but come on, major league pitchers have got to stop the bleeding.  The White Sox have been like sharks this series.  Is Reyes the savior for this team and the pitching staff?  I highly doubt it, but I hope.  We need a new starting pitcher, badly.

We do not need to rebuild right now, as some people are saying.  We have an extremely talented core to win the championship right now.  This team is at least a starter or two (if Reyes isn't the answer) from being a contender.  I'll be more pissed if they don't do anything come the trade deadline.  

by BigdJC on Jun 22, 2006 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Big-j
to get a strong core you have to develop players along with havin a few studs like rolen,albert.So blowing up this team isn't a far fetched idea.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it's not...
a far-fetched idea.  But, how pissed off would you be if they decide to do that right now?  That means you can kiss the Division title good-bye, you can kiss a chance at the Series good-bye, everything.  When in reality, the team is really one or two starters away from the championship.  Come on, we have two big losses, that doesn't mean it's time to destruct this team.  That is a sign of giving up, which pisses me off more than 2 big losses in June.

by BigdJC on Jun 22, 2006 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

That
might happen anyway with this team.We haven't been as consitant as we should be.I'm just not sold on this year being the year as i was in 04 or even last year.One or two starters away and who do you propose those starters are we almost have to trade Mulder and marquis because they aren't signing here and really do you want them in the rotation next year.These loses are a test against a team you might face in the Series and if thats the case can you say sweep.I'd never give up just being realistic.Slaten said it best yesterday we should have traded Mulder in the first 2 months got something of value.I hate Slaten but the dude made a point.These aren't just loses these are big in a way.Do you call the loses agianst the Reds are meaningless?

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, seriously...
Do you expect the Cardinals to go 162-0?  Those losses do not matter come playoff time.  For crying out loud, dude, these losses mean nothing come playoff time.

by BigdJC on Jun 22, 2006 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

no thats unrealistic
but to be competitive against a good team and totally get walked on its horrible.Unless you play the team in the playoffs and lose the same way.How do you think this would play out in the playoffs.I didn't see one ounce of us hanging with them in these games so the playoffs i'd guess we'd win with Carp but thats it.The Sox have something we don't and that my friend is pitching.Say it together PITCHING thats what you need to win games come October.5 good pitcher that on most teams are #1's or 2's.If you think we match up against the Sox in pitching your smoking crack or realllly goooooooood weed.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paging Wayne Hagin...
AND YOU CAN KISS IT GOODBYE!

by sgfcards on Jun 22, 2006 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha Ha
Living in Phoenix, I don't get that luxury, so I didn't know about Wayne Hagin.  All I get is Dan and Al on MLB Extra Innings cable package.

by BigdJC on Jun 22, 2006 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd go with the meaningless losses explanation
We just happened to have two starters have back to back meltdowns. It happens. Yes something is wrong with Mulder, but there's plenty of time in the season for him to get things straightened out.

The offense is still producing, even without Pujols.

We have a four game lead in the standings.  There's no need for any drastic overhauls.  I, for one, would much rather see this team hit their stride in September and October rather than June and July.

by bailorg on Jun 22, 2006 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Playing
with a consitant team would be my wish.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh no,....
I'd point out that the bullpen sure seemed to be melting down, too.  Heh.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm getting desperate here...
How about we trade Albert for Florida's 40-man roster?

by craig3410 on Jun 22, 2006 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

bite your tongue
I wouldn't trade him for the 40 and their farm system combined!

by sdesserman on Jun 22, 2006 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Albert for...
Willingham, Abercrombie, Miggy Cabrera, Willis, Uggla and Hanley Ramirez?  I have a mancrush on El Hombre too, but those 6 players are going to be the core of a championship team soon, and it would be worth it.

Not that Florida would ever make a move that colossally stupid.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 22, 2006 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously, now...
If they decide to go the "screw it, we'll rebuild the team" mode, would that be a preferable option? Maybe send Edmonds back to LAAAAAA for prospects, dump Mulder/Marquis on anyone stupid enough to want him, etc. etc., if it meant a few years of 75-85 losses but greatly improving our WS chances?

by craig3410 on Jun 22, 2006 12:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Anyone notice this throw away line?
After the Cardinals wrap up the three-game series on Thursday, they play three games in Detroit before heading home. "He pushed the workout a couple of degrees tougher and responded real well," La Russa said of the first baseman. "We'll see how he feels tomorrow, if he has soreness or fatigue. ... It was a positive report."

Couple that with the last reports Monday, maybe sooner and I'm beginning to think less and less that we'll get to Sunday before seeing Albert on the field.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Please PLEASE
don't be rushing it before you're healthy, Albert.
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 22, 2006 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

We are in First Place
There are pieces all over about how the trade market is think because there are so many teams within 4.5 games of the Wild Card. Therefore, I don't think that we are going to see any sort of blow-up of the team occur at this point in the realtively young season, because we have a decent shot at making the postseason again. I agree with all of you that I am to the point where it is World Championship or bust, but if management can sell postseason tickets, they will continue on the path.

We have real problems that are very evident, but we also have solutions and possible solutions that could make us a solid postseason team. If Reyes comes on and throws well (4.00-ish ERA), there is a solution. Transferring Wainwright to the rotation could also be a solution. DL-ing Mulder could be as well. If we could somehow get him back to his #3 starter form, with Carp and Reyes, we could stil make a strong postseason run.

These last two games have rekindled by Hot Stove anger, but the season could still be salvaged. There is a month before the trade deadline.

And who knows? Maybe Pujols will start throwing every fifth day, revealing his hidden ability to consistently throw 100 mph fastballs, nasty sliders, and plus circle changes...

by bgh on Jun 22, 2006 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

What?
These last two games have rekindled by Hot Stove anger, but the season could still be salvaged. There is a month before the trade deadline.

Still be salvaged?  I don't call a team that is on pace to win 97 games, and has won 7 out of their last 11 as 'needing salvaged'.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

But, here's the question:
Can this team as constructed, win not just 97 games, but beat the Mets in the NLCS and the AL champion?

Perhaps you say yes.  I say no.  I don't see it.  The pitching is too thin and there are a couple of holes in the field.

It isn't enough for a lot of Cardinal fans to get to the postseason.  We want a title.

We've seen a team trend upward, getting close to the Series each year, and then get to the Series in 2004, only to lose.  Meant more progress to come.

2005, again the team got close but couldn't get past good pitching.  So the trend is now slightly down.

Now, 2006 to down trend looks to be continuing and the pitching is reminiscent of 2003, a poor year for the Cards.

These series are a bellweather for the team.  To beat KC or Minnesota is one thing.  But we all agree the Cardinals are consistently one of the elite teams in the NL, at least for the last 10 years.  

And we are seeing that elite in the NL doesn't really stack up anymore when compared to the best of the AL.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

My opinion...
---------------------
2005, again the team got close but couldn't get past good pitching.  So the trend is now slightly down.
---------------------

Pitching may not have been great, but if not for two baserunning gaufs (Pujols and Mabry) or Nunez throwing that ball away, the Cardinals are going to the World Series yet again.

These two games should no more importance than any other two games.  We are playing a team that very well may not make the playoffs.  Even good teams have bad stretches like this.  I wouldn't be suprised if the Cards win today 7-1.

We are down our best player and our best pitcher didn't have one toss this series.  If the Cardinals are in a 7 game series with Albert and Carp (as well as Rolen), I'm not as worried as everyone else seems.

I'm as critical of this team as anyone, but it's to the point now that I'm embarrassed for some of you, or even to post in the same thread as some of these comments.  You'd think that we were 15 games back.  The team the Cardinals are putting on the field CAN win a World Series.  Losing games in June aren't indicative of how a team can get hot and stay hot.

Positives:
-6 runs a game without Albert.
-Albert is having one of the greatest offensive seasons ever.
-Rolen is reverting back to his All-Star form.
-Edmonds is looking healthier (minus head injury) at the plate each game and is getting on base a ridiculous pace.
-Molina is off the interstate.
-N'acion, the resident goat, is playing like he deserves the contract we gave him.
-Gooch has shown he is a valuable outfielder who can get on base.
-Duncan is a young suprise that, if we didn't have Albert, we'd be going nuts about this kid who can play firs base.

We did have the best rotation and pen ERA in the league earlier this year.  That didn't happen by accident.  Say it was the opponents we were playing if you want, but I don't agree.  I think we are seeing a bump in the road for the pitching staff, that can be iron'd out and will be iron'd out.  Mulder isn't as bad a pitcher as he is throwing right now.  He will get better.  I just don't want to see us pull another Carlton with him.

Lambast the ownership and management for the 'team they put together' but I for one think it's a damn good team that DOES have a chance of winning the World Series.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone remain calm.
Legend is right.  Two losses--no matter how bad--is not the end of the world.  You'd think we were rooting for the Royals or something.  The Cards need a pitch.  Management is well aware and trying to address it, but some of the ideas on this thread--trade Rolen, for the love of God?--are awfully desperate for a team that's up 4 games over the division.  

In December, everyone on this board was ready to explode because Jock didn't sign Burnett.  Is that the kind of move you want him to make?  Look, the Cards are one starter away from contending in the playoffs.  Why don't we see if Reyes is that guy before we blow everything up?

And, uh, even though I usually just lurk, I love this site--it's my favorite Cards blog.  But if you guys are going to treat people the way you treated that Cubs guy, I'll find another place.

by Archaeopteryx on Jun 22, 2006 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

"You guys"?
ONE rude fan doesn't represent all of us. Whether you find another place is up to you, but if you're going to deal out those kind of generalizations with nothing to back them, be my guest.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right.
I don't need to paint with too broad a brush.  But this forum is usually inhabited by polite people who have informed (and enthusiastic) opinions, so rude blowhards stand out.  There are plenty of other places on the web for sputtering venom.

by Archaeopteryx on Jun 22, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here Here
Preach it brotha!  You have hit the head of the nail.  At least I think that's how that analogy goes.

by BigdJC on Jun 22, 2006 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

We may have had the best ERA in the league
But I wouldn't use that to predict that we'll pitch well in the playoffs. Other than Carpenter, and maybe Mulder, I think LBoros is right when he said that our rotation has been pitching better  I strongly disagree that than we should expect. The same could be said for last season too, which is probably some of the reason why our pitching seems down some this season.

IMO, we don't have a legitimate chance of winning the World Series with our current rotation. I'm not basing this on our recent slump either; I've believed this way ever since it became clear that not only was Mulder not going to pitch better than last year, which I considered a neccessity in order to win the World Series, but that he would pitch even worse. IMO, we can't win a World Series without two pitchers who are aces or the next closest thing there is to an ace. And unless WJ pull off a miracle, we can only hope that either Reyes will become that second ace or Mulder will regain his Oakland form before the end of the year.

This team reminds me of the description often given to John Gall as a four-A player; he's good enough to be an all-star in triple-A, but not good enough to play in the major leagues. In much the same way, I see the Cardinals as good enough to win the NL Central, and maybe the NL altogether, but not good enough to beat the best of the AL, which has proven itself to be vastly superior to the NL, imo.

by rob is back on Jun 22, 2006 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

nobody cares
how many regular season games the team wins.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I care
I think it's far more impressive to win 205 out of 324 over two years than 11 of 19 in one three week span in October. A long season is much better at determining the best team than a short series...  

by guayzimi on Jun 22, 2006 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

nothing impressive to me
about padding the win total against mediocre to bad teams. beating the good teams when it matters --- that's impressive.

the cards not only haven't beat the good teams under la russa, they've gotten run off the field by them. kinda takes the luster off all those victories against 70-92 ballclubs . . .

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that was my measuring stick
I'd be a Buffalo Bills fan.

I'm not.  I'm a Cardinals fan and I want to see them win a chapmionship.  They have the best player in the game, a great pitcher and a great third baseman.  Good offensively, great defense.

How often do you have a core like that?  I want to see this team make the most out of that.

A division championship and an early exit in the playoffs isn't satisfactory at this point.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

So to you...
...there hasn't been a good Cardinals team since 1982?

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Likewise, 1968...
...was probably one of the Top 3 Cardinal teams all-time and they couldn't get it done in Game 7.

They had the best outfield in the game, best pitcher in the game and a great first basemen.  How often do you get a core like that?  

If only management hadn't taken that weak rotation into October.  Carlton looked good on paper, but that 6.75 ERA in his two starts killed us.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

if the cards get to the world series
and lose in 7 games, nobody on here will complain

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly
we haven't got to a game 7.  I don't think the NLCS counts, at least.

We only managed game 4 in 04, and NLCS game 6 last year.

by effin fisk on Jun 22, 2006 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

We won't complain?
Eff that. See my comment below re: Failure. If the Series isn't won, the team has failed.
The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 22, 2006 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not the point I'm making
Listen, the 85 and 87 teams were good, but again disappointing because the championship didn't come to us.

But each was mitigated somewhat.  In 85 I was able to focus my anger on Don Denkinger.  And the man-eating tarp.

In 87, without Jack Clark, I really didn't have high expectations.  I was ecstatic to get past the Giants that year because I felt that was overachieving.  The fact that the series against Minnesota went 7 games pleasantly surprised me.

Since, there have been some close calls, but this team's trajectory was rising through 2004 and now I see it potentially declining.

Success over the course of 10 years raises expectations.  The expectation is to take it to the next level.  What's the next level now that the team has been to a World Series?

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I never said
a team couldn't be good without winning a championship.  You're missing my point.

My point was not about goodness/greatness

It was about my satisfaction as a fan.

Am I satisfied losing in Game 7 in 85?  No.  87?  Yes.

68? No, but I wasn't alive then.  I was negative 2.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand that...
...but you can't GET to the postseason without winning in the regular season and the Cardinals are doing just that.

The team I see taking the field looks to have power (Rolen getting healthy, Jimmy getting healthy, Pujols and N'acion = younger Reggie Sanders).  No one in the lineup is dragging us down, in fact, they are playing really well.  Even Miles/Luna are producing well enough at the plate.

The pitching staff obviously has been a disappointment over the last 4 weeks, I'm not going to sugarcoat that.  But they have had flashes of greatness during that span as well.  We have pitch to contact pitchers, and you can't really change that.  It is Duncan/LaRussa's philosophy.  Who did you want the ownership to go get?  Millwood, Burnett Loaiza or Weaver?  Kenny Rogers is the only starting pitcher I can think of that has worked out as a Free Agent and that comes as a complete shock to everyone.  I thought he was done in 1996.  If we had signed Kenny Rogers, can you imagine the backlash?  

The only two pitchers that have worked out really well came off of trades (Beckett and Arroyo) and I just don't see how we could have put a respectable package together to get either of those.

So, I'd have to say that the team we see on the field is the best we could have put together.  Sure, I'd like another bat in the outfield.  But at the same time, I don't mind seeing Gooch or Johnny Rod out there either.  They aren't going to keep us from a World Championship.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with the things you say
i'm a little pissed--or hurt or something--but still damn hopeful and optimistic.

by effin fisk on Jun 22, 2006 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mostly agree with you
But as I responded to you in another thread, our rotation pitched over it's head last season and therefore shouldn't have been expected to pitch as well this year. If we were unable to sign a FA or make a trade for an upgrade to our rotation, the next best option would have been to bring Reyes up at the start of the year and let him experience a full season in the Major Leagues so he could be ready to contribute in the playoffs. I won't disagree that this would have been a risk, but the alternative is to give him a half season to adjust instead, which seems to be what's happening now.

Although I think we could definitely use another bat, I tend to agree with you that too many people have been overly-critical of our slight lack of offensive production.

by rob is back on Jun 22, 2006 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

205 wins in two years
means Jack Squat if you can't win 11 postseason games. Face it: Any season in which a World Series is not won is a Failure. Note the capital "F."
The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 22, 2006 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do
because over 162 games one can see how good a team actually is. That 2004 club was the best team I've ever seen and they didn't do squat in the series; so long as the team makes the playoffs I figure they've got as good a shot as they've ever had.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 22, 2006 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I may not care
how many regular season games the team wins as they continue to come up short of the oft-stated goal of a championship; however, I have enjoyed watching Cardinal baseball each of the last three summers (this one included) more than I have since '87. There is a value to that.

Ultimately I am left with a bad taste in my mouth at the end of each season, and am convinced that will happen again this season if corporate fails to make a move as you articulate beautifully in the post.

by sdesserman on Jun 22, 2006 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

you have just begun to feel pain
i'm sorry to tell all of you loyal cardinal fans that you are witnessing the maturing of baseball's version of the 'bidwill plan'. this plan, if you have forgotten, goes as follows:
first you bring your team up to the level of third or fourth best in your league at the least possible expense.
you pump up your base with promise of a championship and you raise all of your prices (and demand a new stadium) to keep the pot boiling.
then, you finish about third best  and complain about how much money everything costs you and you raise the prices again. but you dont spend that money on payroll except in the executive suite.
then you pump up the fan base about prospects for the upcoming year. then you finish third again, with the promise that if howard pollett had not been hurt, you  surely would have won and, of course, he is in prime condition now.

i defy our friends to say that i dont understand economics.

by dembitz on Jun 22, 2006 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh God,
Please don't let a mention of the Arizona Cardinals taint this board.  I am a lifelong fan of the football Cardinals, nothing frustrates me more than that team.

And I can't choose to root for another team.  After we left St. Louis, my family and I settled in the Valley of the Sun before I moved to San Francisco 7 years later.  So I have no choice, I have to love the Cardinals.

But, perhaps I am naive, but I don't think this ownership group is Bidwillian in its management style.  Though this offseason, Dewitt was shopping for bow ties and bolo ties with his brother "Stormy"...

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bidwill reference
is spot on. DeWitt, et al need to realize that doing things like allocating a limited amount of payroll for certain positions and continually trying to get players to take the "hometown discount" does not always end up with favorable results.

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's stop whining about dewitt
it's not like the Cardinals' payroll isn't one of the highest in the league. It could be higher, yes, but the football cardinals aren't a great analogy.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 22, 2006 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

MVP
I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. We need a starting pitcher (Not eating a few million to trade Marquis and Supp for Vasquez and Carlos Quentin looks like the worst decision in the world right now) but just stop for a second and think how totally ridiculous Albert has been this season. Albert has been out for two week... over 15 games... and still leads all of Baseball in HRs and RBIs... thats pretty damn impressive. A lot of you are asking... "whats his point?" My point is this. One great player can carry a team to a championship. I think Albert means more to this team than anyone is giving him credit for. Do you think that it is just a coincidence that the Pitching started to crap out when Pujols went on the DL? I don't think it is at all.

I think that it is more likley that the Pitchers think that they have to be too fine, too good in the absence of Albert. I think they might be changing their approach knowing that Albert won't be there to knock a game winning 3 run dinger off of Brad Lidge with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. Keep this in mind brothers... Albert has had over 10... TEN... game winning hits this season. From a mental standpoint that is huge for a pitcher. Knowing that you have a guy that can... (Al is still hitting over .500 w RISP) and more than likley will come thru in the cluth can make a big difference. I think Al coming of the DL will have a profound effect on the pitching staff as well as the line up. This man is the MVP in every since of the word.

That being said I think that managment can not just sit back and wait. The owners need to let Walt work his magic. Walt is still the best GM in baseball. I believe that 100% (Think about it... Walt almost got Vasquez and one of the best prospects in baseball for Jeff Suppan and Jason Marquis... WOW). There is a trade out there that is not being talked about... that has not been thought of (Larry Walker, Mark Mulder)... and if Dewitt and company will stop being such freaking penny pinchers Walt will make it happen. We don't need to rebuild... We have the best player to grace the sport of baseball since Ted Williams, We  have a starting pitcher who is capable of shutting down any team. We also have the league leader in BA and a guy (who is much maligned and unfairly so) in Encarnicion who is very quitely having a great season (on pace for 24 HR 92 RBI and a .288 BA) and who is out hitting Larry Walker from last year.

I know this is frustrating brothers... im just as pissed of at Dewitt and the teams situation in general. But please keep in mind the last two regular seasons. Crusing thru the season unchallanged then getting to the Playoffs and then having our weakness exposed. Wouldn't you rather have a stretch like this in the regular season? Have our weakness exposed now so when the post season come we have already addressed it? I know I would!

by BigMac545 on Jun 22, 2006 1:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Actually, Albert doesn't lead
all of baseball in HR and RBI; he certainly doesn't lead Ryan Howard.

And one player CAN"T carry a team to a championship, at least not in baseball.

If you hit, and score 5, 6 runs a game you can still give up 13, 20 runs a game and lose.

If you pitch, and give up 1 or 2 runs a game, you can still be shut out and lose.

To win a World Series it helps to have a superstar (or two) and it helps to have a hot hand in there, and to catch some breaks, but if you have balance---good hitting, good pitching---you're in alot better shape than a team with one or the other.

by salvomania on Jun 22, 2006 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

HRs
Howard and Pujols are tied w 25... meaning he still leads the league in HRs.

by BigMac545 on Jun 22, 2006 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that's not what you wrote
You wrote that Pujols leads all of baseball.

Ryan Howard is part of baseball. But Pujols doesn't lead Ryan Howard. Therefore Pujols doesn't lead all of baseball.

And I wouldn't be such a stickler except for the fact that you were making a specific (not a general) point: Albert's missed 15 games and he still leads all of baseball in HR and RBI. My problem with that pronouncement was that it's inaccurate on both counts.

by salvomania on Jun 22, 2006 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless, of course
you're Babe Ruth with the bosox, and then you can pitch a shutout and hit a couple of home runs.  

but yeah, I get you're point.  I just felt like being contrary

by Valatan on Jun 22, 2006 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes...
It is good that their weaknesses are exposed now rather than later, but do they plan on seriously addressing those weaknesses? I haven't seen any indications that they are intending to do so, other than throwing Reyes into a brutally high pressure situation that hopefully won't turn him into Ankiel if he gets nailed. I would LOVE for Walt to pull a rabbit outta the hat--and he may yet. I'll believe it when I see it. "Almost" landing Vasquez isn't worthy of a "WOW" from me. Too many almosts and not enoughs equal postseason disappointment AGAIN.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

redbird
You are spot on... I just think that there is plenty of reason to be optimistic right now. I know the last few games have had everyone want to jump off the Arch, but I think that Pujols' return will have a bigger effect than most think. I still think this is a playoff team and a team that can contend for the World series. Let me put it this way... We all know how bad we have been in certain area's so far this year... yet we are in first place and have one of the better records in Baseball... how about giving Tony some credit for that? There is a lot to not like about this team right now... but honestly how many teams have a starting ERA of 4.71 and record of 42-28? Something has to be going right!

by BigMac545 on Jun 22, 2006 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're
correct--many things are going right. And those things are definately worthy of praise. But the things that are wrong will become insurmountable come october if they don't do something very soon. Albert's return will definately provide a psychological boost, but will it get Mulder and the rest of the rotation back on track? Even if it did, are they enough for the postseason? Unfortunately, I think we'll yet again have to hope so.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but I strongly disagree that Albert Pujols, or any other player, can single-handedly carry a team to a championship all by himself. Pujols is great, but not that great. He may not be mortal, but his abilities aren't so ominous that he can force other players to play above their heads consistently.

This team needs pitching and I believed this long before Albert went down, including when we were leading the NL in every era category.

by rob is back on Jun 22, 2006 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

As was pointed out on CardNilly...
today is the 4th anniversary of that dark day in Chicago when Darryl Kile left us.

And what I wouldn't give to have DK in the rotation right now.

DK
57

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 22, 2006 2:25 PM EDT reply actions  

as if i wasn't sullen enough
I remember that day. I was on my way to Colorado, to the middle of nowhere. They had a brief news story about it on the radio, and i didn't get the full story until i returned. I was so nervous, and kept hoping all week that I'd get back and hear some good news. Sad.

RIP DK.

by effin fisk on Jun 22, 2006 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

In other news...
Kerry Wood may be done for the season.

He gets fatigued after 6070 pitches in side sessions.

Here's my question: isn't this guy made to be a reliever or a closer.  He has a high 90's fastball, maybe mid 90's at this point and a hellacious curve.  He would only need to throw 20-30 at the max to be a 1 inning closer, couple that with 20-25 warm up pitches in the bullpen and you're still under his fatigue point.

Is it just me?

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Maybe
Wood and Mulder could buy a bar together. They could call it "MightaBeen's"

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2006 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

lets be fair
Mark Mulder has done a lot more in his career than Kerry Wood ever has.
to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 22, 2006 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another surprise...
The sun will come up tomorrow...

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That should be 60-70 pitches
I don't know anyone that wouldn't befatigued after 6000+ pitch side sessions.

Even Dusty would put his starters through that.  Maybe only the late Billy Martin would have...

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 3:03 PM EDT reply actions  

I didn't even notice the error.
I merely assumed it was just Dusty being Dusty.  Wood started crying at pitch 575, and Dusty told him they would throw until he sucked it up and grew a set.  He then flicked his toothpick at him ala Razor Ramone.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

good stuff mostly
But I have to disagree with this paragraph:

"best fans, you deserve better. better than another empty division title; better than a bunch of forgettable wins against milwaukee and pittsburgh and kansas city; better than the tell-em-what-they-want-to-hear dissembling of the team brass. we deserve a full-on commitment to winning a championship at every level of the organization. we're seeing what that looks like during the cards' visit to comiskey -- on the white sox half of the diamond. and we're seeing just how far behind that organization we lag. [...] as a gauge of the cards' title-worthiness, these two games are no aberration. they're a depressingly accurate illustration of what we already knew before the series began: these cards are too flawed to go all the way."

It's not like the team was built to have empty wins against bad teams, and we've got a sample size of all of a half a season in which it's even true. The White Sox are no great shakes as an organization, either; they're just what the Cardinals were a few years earlier, having recently traded some of their best prospects for an aging but talented player. As for "title-worthiness", I'd pick this team over the 2005 sox club that lucked into a World Series after doing everything they possibly could to choke themselves out of a playoff spot--the one who started mediocrities at shortstop, left field, third base and DH, and who had, much like we complain about the Cardinals always having, one guy in the starting rotation who struck people out. (Unless you count Orlando Hernandez, who struck people out and then sucked anyway.) Title-worthiness is being good enough to win the division (non-2005-Padres-division) and then being lucky enough to win in the playoffs, it's not some step between David Glass and the hypothetical Totally Devoted Ownership Group.

Everybody's got a right to be pissed, but if they are now and they weren't three days ago then they weren't paying enough attention.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 22, 2006 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

The White Sox also....
...were blessed with Contreras overcoming his 'stop looking at me while I pitch' syndrome he had in New York.  Even still, for an organization that is 'great' they SHOULD have lost to the Indians last year for the division title (remember their complete collapse until the last week) and this year they already regret trading away their young CF (trying to get him back) and put alot of stock in Jim Thome, who is one mistep away from the 30 day DL.

Their manager and general manager are jackasses and throw player they don't like under the bus.  Their owner was the same owner that let Jerry Kraus destroy the greatest (current) basketball team and forced the greatest player of all time into retirement.

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not be like the White Sox, even if it does cost us a World Series.

Not attacking you lboros, in the least.  I'm just disgusted that the White Sox are still having positive results for a team run by a bunch of jackasses.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2006 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

you don't have to like em
but you do have to call em champs

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why?
Aside from Ozzie's mouth (and hey, we complain about how LITTLE TLR says) that team plays a lot like the Cards do.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

just to clarify my own position,
I really liked the Contreras move--especially considering all they gave up was Loaiza--and the Thome one was a good example of buying low, though the price was still pretty steep. I think they'll end up regretting the Vazquez trade, though.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 22, 2006 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of being a misstep
away from the DL, there is no 30-day DL. Also, if you look at the last few years, the Sox send very few guys to the DL. A lot of guys attribute that to their training staff. Also, it isn't like the Cards have a bunch of guys with great health--Thome has been much healthier over his career than Carpenter, Rolen, or Edmonds.

by thndrstrck on Jun 22, 2006 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

but as you well know
i, and most of the posters on this board -- and a lot of fans who post on other boards, or who listen to radio, or write letters to the p-d -- didn't just notice this morning that the cardinals have a few holes. this stuff has been out there for months.

i disagree with this: "Title-worthiness is being good enough to win the division (non-2005-Padres-division) and then being lucky enough to win in the playoffs." yes there's a large crapshoot component to the playoffs, but it's not only about luck. there are things you can control. you cover as many points as possible before you roll the dice; you get the best odds you can get.

no need to drag David Glass into the discussion; i haven't heard anyone compare the cardinals to the royals.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn't saying anybody did,
he was just the first terrible, doesn't-care-about-winning owner to come to mind. There's a Bidwell comparison on one of these threads, though, so it can't be that far off.

And I just don't see what else the Cardinals should've done, given this offseason's makeup. The biggest target was AJ Burnett; our biggest trade chit was Anthony Reyes. Without hindsight I liked very much the Spivey deal, and I don't think doling out $15 million to Encarnacion can be claimed as tightfistedness, only wrong-headedness. I was very much a proponent of the Cardinals going after Javi Vazquez, but the price appears to have been steeper than they could've--or should've--swung. Basically, it just happened to be a terrible year to open a stadium if they were hoping for the minimum of profiteering conspiracies.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 22, 2006 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

burnett
returns to the mound tonight; he may yet prove to be worth that big contract he signed

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Burnett could be...
He could be worth it,
or he could be injured as often as Wood or Prior,
or he could turn into Mark Mulder.

Free agents don't come with warranties, and I'm glad we didn't win the Burnett bidding.

When Buehrle comes on the market, though, get out the checkbook.

by madridbend on Jun 22, 2006 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was a tough market
but i dont think anybody would say the cardinals did a good, or even adequate, job of addressing their off-season needs. their saving grace has been weak competition

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

who
Should the Cardinals have gotten then? Looking at who was available and where the needs were?
to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 22, 2006 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

to start with
i would have traded either suppan or marquis before or during spring training. for kevin mench, brad wilkerson, melvin mora, austin kearns, jason michaels --- the best outfielder they could acquire. all of the guys i am naming either were actually traded, or were widely rumored to be available. if you read this blog over the winter, you know i harped on this ad nauseum; i am not 2d guessing here.

such a trade would have achieved a number of things: 1) made the outfield younger and cheaper, 2) eliminated the redundancy of soft-toss groundballers in the rotation, and 3) alleviated the glut of walk-year pitchers, who now represent jocketty's most severe limitation in the trade market.

the cards took a much more conservative tack, but it has left them with an unbalanced roster and very little maneuverability with which to re-balance it.  that was their worst mistake of the off-season, imho.

i also was a vocal advocate of the burnett signing. that contract has been debated to death, as has his injury record; really, let's not rehash it all. i will only say this: it pissed me off that the cardinals identified him as the guy they wanted, but then failed to go out and do whatever necessary to bring him in.

and i'll observe that as of tonight, with burnett returning to the mound for the blue jays, not many people would take the cardinals' rotation over the blue jays'.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

as a corrollary to the above
i would obviously have plugged a reyes directly into the vacated slot, and signed a cheap free agent --- i liked jamey wright, who is in san fran's rotation and has been about as effective as ponson / marquis / supps --- to compete with wainwright for matt morris' old slot.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, have no doubt..
I've been pissed. I just haven't been venting until now.

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

they
had pitching and more so K pitchers.contrares,garland,buerhle hell el duke.they had a great staff.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

K/9:
Contreras: 6.77
Garland: 4.68
Buerhle: 5.67
Garcia: 5.76
Hernandez: 6.38 (18 homers in 128 innings)

More strikeouts than the Cardinals, maybe, but no K staff by any means.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 22, 2006 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

but within the context of their league
their staff was 5th in k/9. the cardinals were 13th.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2006 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe
there will be no Ozzie tonight per ESPN. he has been suspended one game and david riske has been suspended 3 games for the beanball on tuesday. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2496470

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 22, 2006 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Any chance we land Smoltz?
I've seen a bunch of rumblings about Atlanta making some moves.  Although Hampton (back from Tommy-John) and Hudson will be next year, John will be 40 and has a $11 MM option in 2007 and that could be costly for the Braves.  Would be nice to see the Cards pick him up for the rest of the season and see how far Carp, Smoltz, Mulder, and Reyes can take this team in October.  Cards can pick up his option or give Atlanta a shot to resign him on the open market for 2007.

by riescher on Jun 22, 2006 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't hold your breath...
it would require the owners to actually pry open their pocketbooks...

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think
we all could respect smoltz,Carp,reyes, in a playoff rotation.Thats a tough 3.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 22, 2006 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the fact
that you're willing to throw a guy who has started 3, that's right, 3 major league games in as the number three guy in your rotation is a really good indicator of where Cardinals pitching is at right now.

by thndrstrck on Jun 22, 2006 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
He's the #2 starter right now.

by whopperman on Jun 22, 2006 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you happen to know
our ERA and runs scored/game in these games, vs the rest of our games?

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love this stat
Of course, if the brewers, marlins and diamondbacks hadn't been beaten by us so many times, they'd all be over 500, and our numbers would look even worse ;)  

by SleepyCA on Jun 22, 2006 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

and
Your numbers are further cherry-picked by the fact that 3 teams in the NL west are 36-36 right now.  Lol.  What's our record against them?

by SleepyCA on Jun 22, 2006 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I ran something
on this earlier this week. I have a system similar to NCAA's BCS that checks wins and losses against how well the oppposing team is playing, both recently and over the full season. It's not perfect and it can spit out some weird numbers every once in a while, but as a whole I think it is quite useful.

Anyway, without going into the myriad details, the numbers it spits out signify how good a team is when they play a specific opponent. Good teams playing normally, average teams playing well, and bad teams playing their asses off would rate at 1150 or above. Bad teams playing normally, average teams playing poorly, and goods teams in a roster-wide funk would rate 850 or below.

For games up through this past Sunday, in games played against opponents rating out at 1150 or higher, the Cardinals had the best record in the majors, at 11-6. But they haven't been keeping up that kind of pace against the lesser clubs. And as a whole, they've had the second easiest schedule in the big leagues (just harder than Houston). (Then again, the White Sox and Detroit have had the easiest schedules in the AL.)

What it really says it that we have a good team, capable of standing up against the strongest competition, but our faults have been masked somewhat by an easy schedule. I know, I know ... newsflash for those of us on this board. But there isn't a sane person amongst us that would've bet on Sunday night that we would have the outcomes from the last two games. (Yeah, I know, if you stop that last sentence halfway through ...)

I think it was just a weird convergence of a lot of bad things. There's no way that the extreme performances Marquis and Mulder put up are truly indicative of their current talent level. Not to say that the great ship Redbird doesn't have leaks and we're not taking on water, but I think this team's sump pump (to continue with the analogy) is more than capable of handle the seas we're in. That said, we need to drydock this baby if we hope to survive the stormy seas of the postseason.

by Solanus on Jun 22, 2006 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's interesting
I'm familiar with your system from your past posts on it and enjoy reading your analysis with it. I would have guessed that our record was much worse against teams 1150 or higher. As for righting the ship, I worry that our schedule is just going to get tougher and tougher, since we've already played the easy part. To add to that, Houston's remaining schedule is significantly easier imo (isn't it something like 11 of our 16 games against them are at MMP this year?), they're beginning to play ver well and now Clemens is back.

Btw, I may not be sane, but I'm not surprised we got stomped by the ChiSox, although it was admittedly worse than I'd have ever considered.

by rob is back on Jun 23, 2006 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Request
Hi,

I was wondering what the process was to get a link posted on your blog.  I really enjoyed it and think a link to JustGreatTickets.com would be a good fit.  

thanks!
KR@justgreattickets.com

by JGT on Jun 22, 2006 4:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Even the spammers
are Cardinals fans. Sweet.
The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 22, 2006 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Diversion - All Star Coaching Staff
Garner named Narron and Jim Tracy to his staff.  I guess I can understand Narron given the Reds run this year, but what in the world has Jim Tracy done to merit being on the NL All Star game coaching staff?  I know it doesn't matter, but I thought this was particularly odd.
OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on Jun 22, 2006 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

next year
invest in jason schimdt, carlos lee and/or soriano. also resign sup.

staff
carp
schimdt
reyes
wainwright
suppan

lineup
eck
luna
pujols
lee
rolen
juan
edmonds
molina

or

eck
soriano
pujols
rolen
juan
edmonds
molina
luna

plus 1 or 2 solid relievers and we got a solid team.

by cjwest20 on Jun 22, 2006 5:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Followup question
Who are your backups when Reyes/Wainright have issues going 200 innings?

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2006 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they go down for a week or two
just start someone from AAA.  I don't understand why we are so set on having pitchers not take some time off.  If you have two staff aces and play .500 ball during the other starters games then you'll be fine.  So long as Carp and Schmidt were healthy they could call me in for 3 starts to fill in if someone lands on the DL and those 3 starts won't be the difference between them making the playoffs or not.

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2006 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

rumblings
Some discussion over at Cards Talk that Pujols has been activated, Duncan sent down and Mulder put on DL.
DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 22, 2006 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

If Duncan is sent down
and Timo Perez stays, I will be convinced there is no God.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe
he's pitching Saturday.
DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 22, 2006 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

PUJOLS
The official website is reporting he is in the lineup tonight

by alecoholics on Jun 22, 2006 5:38 PM EDT reply actions  

That is absolutely crazy
If he gets re-injured, then Tony La Russa is dead to me.

by Valatan on Jun 22, 2006 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Paletta had
any say in this, I'm more than concerned. He said Rolen was healthy enough to come back last year...

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh boy
Please for the love of all things holy, be healthy and stay healthy.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 22, 2006 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

KFNS
just said Mulder has been DL'd(sore shoulder) and Pujols has been activated; Dunc, Jr. sent down...

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2006 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

An ode to this week in baseball
A hundred wins each of the past two seasons
Makes the Cards the proverbial white stag
The Reds and the White Sox blow their horns
While perched upon their dappled nags

Hunting the Redbirds has become the new craze
But they haven't yet put us in the bag
It's gotten the South Siders so pissed off
Guillen called Mariotti a ... coward

by Solanus on Jun 22, 2006 5:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Smoltz
  Just wondering if anyone would think packaging Reyes in a deal for Smoltz would be acceptable. Smoltz is signed to a pretty reasonable contract through next year and the Braves seem to be thinking rebuild at the moment.

by moochavelli on Jun 22, 2006 6:01 PM EDT reply actions  

No way!
We should avoid trading away our future as much as possible. That's one reason I liked the idea of trading for Willis, because if we traded Willis for Reyes, we'd only be giving up a couple of years, but it'd be for a proven winner. And I've even begun to question the sensibility of that trade; especially with the way Reyes pitched tonite.

by rob is back on Jun 23, 2006 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

duncan sent down?
how can you send down duncan with how he has performed?

i dont think we need to blow up the team either..

i think we can improve from within...wainwright could start...reyes could be given a shot. let duncan play left. luna is great at 2b.  its not too bad a situation we are in, except for the fact our best options are not getting chances to play...the moves we are making make no sense..

albert coming back this early? sending duncan down? wainwright in the bullpen, reyes in the minors, its all crap imo..

by 2ndprize on Jun 22, 2006 6:28 PM EDT reply actions  

well said
..........and i am pissed!

by herr28 on Jun 22, 2006 7:30 PM EDT reply actions  

sox don't have
a new stadium. sox don't own their own radio station. sox don't draw close to 4 million a year . . . . .

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Cardinals have a higher payroll than the Sox
Sorry for injecting reality into the "White Sox do more to win than the Cardinals" rant.

by Vidor on Jun 24, 2006 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's not true
according to cot's contracts (which is based on USA Today's salary database), the white sox opening day payroll was $102 million. the cardinals' was $88 million.

this despite the fact that (per forbes.com) the cardinals' revenues were 5 percent higher than the white sox, and the stl franchise is worth 30 percent more than the chisox.

the cardinals sell more tickets than the sox, at higher prices; their local TV and radio packages are worth more; they sell more gear; and (per forbes) they have a new stadium and own their own radio station.

yet their payroll is $14 million lower.

sorry for shooting down your wishful thinking with actual facts.

by lboros on Jun 26, 2006 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

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