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the 'wright stuff

yesterday i was fretting about the cards' rotation and engaging in some rather desperate speculation about cy-young-caliber pitchers who might get dumped onto the trade market. well, screw that. after watching wainwright's two innings last night, i realized there's a simpler solution: just put wainwright into the rotation.

is it really that difficult? he put up an 0.57 era in 15 grapefruit-league innings and had a 4-1 strikeout-walk ratio; if that "competition" for the #5 slot in the rotation hadn't been rigged, he'd have won it handily. since they started firing live ammo, wainwright has posted an era of 0.66, with a 5-1 strikeout ratio. he's making hitters look stupid, sending them back to the bench shaking their heads. and he's a starter -- pitched in 137 minor-league games, and started all but two of em. it's not as if this is the first hot month he's had in pro ball, either; he has a long record of success, a former 1st-round draft pick whom baseball america once deemed a top-20 prospect and listed in the top 50 just two years ago. (for reference, anthony reyes is the #47 prospect this year.) wainwright's stock dropped when he injured his arm in 2004, but his success is no fluke. he has always had a lot of promise; at 24, he appears ready to live up to it.

i wrote a little ode to wainwright back in february, and he has exceeded my hopes by a longshot. the guy is pitching with great determination and no fear; he acts like he's got something to prove, provides a shot of energy ev'y time he takes the mound. he's a valuable reliever, the best they've got so far, but he's still only 3d (at best) in the bullpen pecking order; they gotta find a more prominent role for this guy while he's hot. he throws hard, changes speeds, and above all makes batters swing and miss. with the stuff he's exhibited to date, you could imagine him throwing a shutout against a strong lineup in a postseason game. i can't see marquis doing that; can't see anybody else but carpenter, really.

once wainwright goes around the league a time or two, hitters will adjust and he'll take some licks; he's not gonna finish the year with an era under 1.00. but i'd settle for 3.80 in 15 to 25 starts; i'd settle for giving the guy a chance to succeed in the role he's spent 6 seasons grooming for.

so there's your solution: if and when the cardinals move a starter for an outfielder, they should stick wainwright into the vacancy. that'd strengthen the lineup and the rotation simultaneously. might weaken the pen just a tad, but since wainwright can't throw on back-to-back days and is not even that comfortable going every other day, he's just not adding that much value pitching out of the bullpen.

if wainwright does go into the rotation, then what of young mr reyes? gotta leave that discussion for another day, another post . . . .

albert's back is still mighty sore; that could render all our discussions here moot. . . . . the same article says mulder's back isn't bad enough to make him miss his turn this weekend; also that bigbie will be activated by the cardinals next week. see ya, john gall.

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alas
Bet you my Bake McBride rookie card it's not gonna happen. The same article that discusses Pujols and Bigbie also says TLR probably would have subbed in Hancock for Mulder instead of Wainwright. It seems as thought TLR is now so in love with Wainwright in the pen that he can't bear to give the guy 100 additional innings by putting him in the rotation.

Speaking of Gall, how 'bout that 9th inning pinch hitting choice? Bennett?

DCGreg

by DCGreg on May 5, 2006 6:56 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Damn straight
I had this same thought while watching the game last night, lboros. Hell, I'd trade Marquis for a can of tomato sauce now just to get Wainwright into the rotation.

by DCRedbird on May 5, 2006 7:39 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So did I
and from reading the comments last night, I get the feeling that many of us did. I think I can understand why TLR might want to leave him in the bullpen for now, but we need another effective starter and Wainright seems poised and ready.

I suppose that might leave the bullpen a little thin, so why not move Marquis to the bullpen? They've held his hand all along and at some point he's going to have to either prove his consistency or go. I would guess that moving him to the bullpen would lower his trade value, but it might be worth it if he becomes effective after adjusting to the switch.

What I would like to know is could Marquis become an effective bullpen hand, and if so, would that allow him to pinch hit more or less than he does now? I like the idea of receiving two players for the price of one with Marquis, but not when one of those players is a starting pitcher.

by rob is back on May 5, 2006 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Braves tried putting him in the bullpen
and he threw numerous tantrums over it, and, surprise, wasn't effective. In fact, after bouncing him in and out of the rotation for a couple of years, during the last one, they stuck him there, and he was awful.

So Atlanta traded their uncoachable player (and Ray King and Wainwright I believe)for ours: J.D. Drew.

I don't think we would want to see Marquis in the bullpen.

by glamberson on May 5, 2006 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What more can be done though?
If Wainright, or someone else, were better suited for the rotation than Marquis, then I suppose the options are to send him to the bullpen or to Memphis, right? Either would be okay, but I still think he can help from the bullpen and as a pinch hitter, which seems to be somewhat lacking right now.

Hopefully he's matured more since Atlanta and won't throw a tantrum, but it might be good for him if not, because something has to change with him mentally imo.

You may very well be right that he's not suited for the bullpen, but it does seem that something has to change with Marquis.

by rob is back on May 5, 2006 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow
A guy has two bad starts and now he's worse than Brady Raggio. Look, I think Wainwright has looked DARNED good out of the pen. No doubt. But Im not about to suggest bumping Marquis out of the rotation to get him in there.

No offense, but Marquis is a better pitcher than Adam Wainwright. He just is. Marquis put up better numbers across the board than Wainwright last year and was pitching at the MAJOR league level...not against the Iowa Cubs.

Right now the Cardinals are better off with Wainwright in the pen. How does moving him to the rotation make us a better team? I don't see it.

Remember, you can throw harder and let it all hang out when you are throwing 30 pitchers per outing as opposed to 110. Wainwright has been DOMINANT out of the pen..and that's great. But he was anything but in the minors.

Maybe he is a better reliever than starter.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 5, 2006 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

we know a lot about marquis
he's an inconsistent starter who you'd never want to rely on in an important game.

we won't know anything about wainwright unless we give him a chance. if tony/dunc would be willing to do that, maybe they'd be pleasantly surprised

by lboros on May 5, 2006 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True
Or he could be even worse than Marquis or any other starter. I understand people's fascination with rookies and the unknown. We always "assume" the best when playing these scenarios. However, there is nothing in Wainwright's history to suggest he would be better than Marquis.

Marquis has been a better pitcher than Adam. The numbers back this up.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 5, 2006 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, but
that was then and this is now. the past certainly isn't dictating what Wainwright is doing now.

But if you want to look at the past numbers in order to project what Marquis and Wainwright would do, ZiPS has already done that.

Marquis 12-13, 33G, 204 IP, 4.68 ERA, 27HR, 209H, 69BB, 115 K

Wainwright 9-9, 4.50 ERA, 28 G, 174 IP, 23 HR, 44 BB, 184 H, 112 K's.  

According to ZiPS, Wainwright's projections look a little better then Suppan, Ponson, Marquis and not that far off from Mulder.

Personally, I think he can do even better then his projection. From what we've seen from Spring Training until now is a guy with good command and dominant stuff, and a ton of confidence and poise.

I'd at least rather try him out then play it safe with the mediocre stuff we have now.

by erik on May 5, 2006 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As the mutual fund companies say:
"Past performance is not an indicator of future results."

by 26thMan on May 5, 2006 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Banter
Pleasure to read the points of both sides. Good cases made. So much better here than the uncivilived bashing that goes on in P-D's CardsTalk.
Baily

by Baily on May 5, 2006 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"A guy has two bad starts"
Wow - to typify Marquis as having two bad starts and base Marquis as being better than Wainright because of last year is simply logically flawed.  You provide no substantive evidence of Marquis' pitching superiority.  At this point, based on this year's stats, Wainright is a better pitcher than Marquis.

Marquis has a career long track record of mediocrity with fluctuations from dominating to turn-off-the-game pathetic.  Marquis has been given every opportunity to prove himself and has failed.

"How does moving him (Wainright) to the rotation make us a better team?"

I'm not sure that it does.  You raise some valid concerns re:  pen vs. starting; however, given Wainright's dominance thus far, giving him an opportunity to start would give us (and more importantly tlr and dunc) the chance to evaluate whether he's a better reliever than starter.  It's not as if he can't go back to the pen if the "experiment" fails.

by sdesserman on May 5, 2006 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

understood
Here is the MAJOR difference. Marquis had a better ERA, WHIP, and BA/against the past TWO years than Wainwright did. And Marquis was facing major league hitters, not minor league guys.

It is a far more valid comparison than comparing Marquis and Wainwright statistically this season. Look, I like what I've seen from Wainwright. Great, great stuff. However, I'm just not certain that would translate as a starter.

For some reason or another, he gave up quite a bit more hits than innings pitched at the AAA level. Why is that? He has been more "hittable" the last two seasons than Jason Marquis has.

I guess to me the problem isn't the starting pitcing. Im willing to give Marquis some time before deeming him a failure.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 5, 2006 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can understand
I supported Marquis for a long time after others had given up on him. I still haven't completely given up on him, but he hasn't pitched well, with any lasting consistency, since before the All-Star break last year. I just don't see him improving until something changes or he has a revelation of some sort.

Everyone talks about him being stubborn, but what bothers me is that he's too emotional, he let's his emotions get to him, and I'm not sure that he can change; it may be in his chemistry. I don't know that much about baseball, but I tend to believe that this is a bad characteristic for a pitcher. He obviously has the physical tools, but like Ankiel before him, I'm not sure that he has the mental characteristics needed to be a good pitcher.

by rob is back on May 5, 2006 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember
that back in 2003, Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said his team was better off with Johan Santana in the bullpen.

Not that I'm saying anything, but I'm just saying.

by 26thMan on May 5, 2006 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

jim needs shoulder surgery
i just read an article on the post dispatch's site. it said that jim's shoulder is getting better, but not healed. it also said that jim will need surgery on it in the offseason. do the cards pick up his option if thats the case? if not, we will have to go out and get two outfielders this offseason. this is a really big problem and i dont know how the team will address it.

by cards4life on May 5, 2006 8:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ugh
The reason this really screws us is Edmonds provides a power source from the CF position, a rare commodity. And we really need that third power bat. Who are the free agent CFers for next season?

by mikedallas23 on May 5, 2006 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't...
...offseason shoulder surgery give the Cards an excuse to pass on Jimmy's option and perhaps sign him to a lower value deal?

Don't they need to find out what they have with Wainwright right now? To see if trading a starter for a bat is an option? We move Wainwright to the rotation and Reyes to the 'pen to avoid Reyes becoming the perpetual injury risk that is Kerry Wood.

by bgh on May 5, 2006 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup
I'll vote for that. I think Marquis needs to start pitching better if we're going to get anything of value for him, though. If I was another team I would be thinking "If Dave Duncan can't get him straightened out what makes us think that we can?"

by mikedallas23 on May 5, 2006 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has something...
...like a $12M option for 2007 on him, but there are some reports (speculation, it seems) that the Twins, given their financial situation, might not pick it up.

by bgh on May 5, 2006 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bigbie & Wainwright
I concur re: Wainwright, but it ain't gonna happen now that he has found success in the pen. His best be was to be so-so in the pen, and hope someone else stunk in the rotation (like, oh, Marquis).

If Bigbie gets a lot of starts in LF simply because he was Plan A coming into the season, I'm going to be, uh, not surprised, just pissed I guess. J-ROD deserves to start every day until he proves great major league pitching can figure him out. Why he and Luna haven't won their starting spots yet is beyond me -- especially considering how average our once-amazing lineup has been.

by PhatAlbert on May 5, 2006 9:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

not hard
This isn't hard to figure out. JROD WILL PLAY versus righties. Taguchi plays versus Lefties. Considering So is hitting .400 versus lefties why would you do it any other way???
to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 5, 2006 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean just this year, right?
From 03-05 the Gooch has a .715 OPS versus lefties, .775 versus righties. However Tony has apparently decided that Rodriguez can't hit lefties since he's only had 1AB against lefties so far this year, so you are correct, this is what is going to happen. I think Bigbie is looking at no better than 4th/5th outfielder for now. However, maybe he will be good enough that we can use him instead of Gary Bennett as a pinch hitter with the game on the line.

by mikedallas23 on May 5, 2006 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

JRod in 05 vs. LHP
Limited PAs (just 34) but he hit .294 with a .441 obp. vs. lefties.

Plus, Gooch had more AB vs. righties this year than he has against lefties.

by salvomania on May 5, 2006 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jrod
Jrod was hurt earlier in the season. That explains Taguchi's AB's versus righties. John hasnt been healthy the whole time.

He has started four of the last six games. I agree though. I like seeing JRod in there. He is a legitimate threat with the bat and he has displayed more plate discipline.

I would like to see him start five-six days a week but I understand why he doesnt.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 5, 2006 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's only May 5th, It's only May 5th
Ok..... I talked myself off the ledge there.

a couple cervezas tonight may also help.  7 strong innings from Sir Soups will help too.

Happy Cinco de Mayo.

El Birdos despojo nos demasiado! Viva El Birdos!

I have an El Hombre ManCrush

by Schnake on May 5, 2006 11:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

amen...amen.
Schnake are you I have an El Hombre ManCrush on Deadspin.com?

by jroman on May 5, 2006 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guilty
Love Will's stuff
I have an El Hombre ManCrush

by Schnake on May 5, 2006 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way....
Since you're typing in Spanish, can you remind me with "son todos" as in the VEB t shirt means?

by sdrone on May 5, 2006 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yup
"they are all"
I have an El Hombre ManCrush

by Schnake on May 5, 2006 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

poised and ready
i live in des moines so i go to a lot of iowa cubs games because it's a beautiful little park and you're close to the baseball. i sat behind wainwright one night last summer when he was charting pitches for next day's start. he seemed to have the right attitude to be a starter--poised and ready as someone above said. he was gracious with my questions, impatient with the injury that had sidelined him, open to learning everything he could wherever he was, aching to advance and win some games in the majors, and taking the positives from every situation. he embodied the Cardinal-type player you just have to like and root for.

by thatsawinner on May 5, 2006 12:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

DSM too!
Hey thatsawinner I live in DSM too. We should have a drink and watch a Cards game sometime.

by indakind on May 5, 2006 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sounds like a plan
the momentum created by the virtual community is great but maybe it'd be doubled in person. plus it's always a better idea than drinking alone. ;)

name the game and place.

by thatsawinner on May 5, 2006 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In other news,

did anybody else notice that the U.S. House or Representatives passed Resolutions 626 and 627 yesterday congratulating Pujols and Carpenter for their respective seasons?

That should restore your faith in government.

by glamberson on May 5, 2006 1:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Saw that!
It was their best work from Thursday.  

Maybe that is what Rep. Kennedy was hurrying to when he got popped for swerving his car all over the road!

I have an El Hombre ManCrush

by Schnake on May 5, 2006 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright
From today's BPro chat with Joe Sheehan
MikeJordan23 (Brooklyn): How good is Adam Wainwright? And do you think he should be in the Cardinals rotation this year, if they trade one of their current starters for a hitter later this year?

Joe Sheehan: Very good. Hard to remember that he was a Braves' #1 pick a while back, and missed a fair amount of time to injuries. He's through the nexus now (he'll be 25 in August) and pitching well. If he had to take a rotation spot, I doubt he'd be a falloff from anyone but Carpenter.

by holden on May 5, 2006 3:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Those are pretty strong words.
I mean man, a 15 game winner?  heh.

by sdrone on May 5, 2006 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why is that hard to believe?
it's very common for rookie pitchers to step right in and do very well. dontrelle willis, josh beckett, johan santana, jaret wright (i'm going off the top o me head here), ben sheets, zach duke, mark buehrle --- these are all guys who got stuck into somebody's rotation and had immediately became #2 or #3 type starters. if i gave it more thought, i could come up w a dozen more examples like that who are currently in the bigs. unfortunately, after 10 years of tony/dunc cardinal fans simply don't trust rookie pitchers.

by lboros on May 5, 2006 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying it won't happen
Heck, that'd be awesome.  I'm all for it.

I think maybe this whole "Reyes is destined to only be a bullpen guy" line of thought is dragging me down.

by sdrone on May 5, 2006 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also on BPro...
But then there's this from Will Carroll's Under the Knife column today in a discussion re Mulder's back:
There's no depth to work from if Mulder's lost for any significant period. Cards fans want to believe.
Looks like these Baseball Prospectus guys are not reading one another or are just on different pages.

by holden on May 5, 2006 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i realized last night
that wainwright is our 2nd best pitcher.  I knew he was pitching well and believed that he would be good, but right now he is better than everyone else on the staff except for Carp.  We do need to find a way to get him in to the rotation.  Unfortunately, it probably means waiting for Marquis to pitch a couple of decent games before we can trade him but maybe we can dump him for a decent OF (doubtful) or decent MR to take Wainwright's spot (possible).  

by chuckb on May 5, 2006 6:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

last night
he was better than carp.  I found myself praying that carp would hold it together through the 6th so AW could come in, pitch 2-3 innnings, and get the win.

by SleepyCA on May 5, 2006 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He reminded me of Carp
when Carp has everything clicking right.

by rob is back on May 5, 2006 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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