reyes looks ready

by lboros on May 26, 2006 8:15 AM EDT in News Comment 55 comments

think anthony reyes wants the hell out of triple a? he threw 8 shutout innings last night vs tacoma -- 3 hits, 1 walk, 8 strikeouts; also hit a batter. he induced a whopping 21 swinging strikes -- a months' worth for some of the st louis starters. of the 105 pitches anthony threw, 77 were for strikes. but hold on: he only got 5 groundball outs, vs 11 fly balls. . . .

. . . . ah, hell. kid's got no future.

reyes' next start will likely be for the cardinals, day after memorial day, in what would normally be chris carpenter's turn. no official word on carp yet, but given the team's very careful approach with the #5 starter (ponson) when he had a little owie, i would be shocked (and disgusted) if they were to needlessly rush the ace back into the rotation. carpenter has had back pain on and off since last september; let him take three weeks off if he has to. perfect excuse to give reyes some innings and see what he can do.

reyes' performance was just one of four gems in the system last night, as the farmhands allowed just 3 runs in 36 innings. at double a, jordan pals and cory doyne combined to hold frisco to 1 run in springfield's 10-1 rout; at high a, mark michael threw a 2-hit complete game for palm beach.

but the really intriguing performance took place at quad cities, where a left-handed pitcher named jaime garcia shut out cedar rapids for 8 innings to earn a 1-0 victory. . i never heard of this guy until mikedallas23 mentioned garcia in a recent diary about the farm system. kid is only 20 years old, drafted last year in the 22d round but couldn't play for lack of a work visa -- he's a mexican citizen who only became eligible for the draft because he played high school ball in texas.

in april, his first month in professional baseball, garcia was named the organization's pitcher of the month. last night he beat a top-100 prospect named nick adenhart, who came into the game with a 7-0 record and a 1.56 era. garcia's season line now reads:

55.1 ip, 45 h, 14 w, 59 k, 0 hr, 2.28 era, 3-3 record

note the 0 hr -- opposing hitters are slugging below .300 against garcia this season. and he's the type of young pitcher even la russa and duncan can love, a groundball guy -- g/f ratio is right about 2.00. (data courtesy jeff sackmann's Minor League Splits Database.) another couple of good starts and he's a candidate to move up to high a. definitely somebody worth keeping an eye on.

derrick goold has a post about last night's four aces at his birdland blog today; also an article in the regular paper about minor-league starting pitchers whose future with the cardinals (if any) may lie in the bullpen. matt leach checks in with one guy who trod that path to the majors -- adam wainwright -- and finds him relaxed and happy in the bullpen.

read elsewhere: baseball analysts dh ross roley thinks baseball should start using instant replay, and he uses the don denkinger miscall as a case study. . . . . would-be cardinal reliever jeff nelson has resurfaced with the white sox . . . . last year's cardinals were the 2d-best small-ball team in the national league, behind the marlins.

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Denkinger

I was talking to a fellow Cardinal fan two weeks ago and we agreed that neither one of us will ever get over the '85 Series. Given that the Cards had lost Coleman, who had really changed the dynamic of the team when he came up from Louisville, they had been fortunate to get past the Dodgers. As a fan it felt like they had been walking on eggshells, scraping out runs and playing on borrowed time. When Denkinger blew that call it just felt like the eggshells went crunch. Or splat, or whatever it is eggshells do when the jig is up...

by Pokey Joe on May 26, 2006 8:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cubs could use some of those prospects

It's finally started in Chicago. They're talking about breaking up the team:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-cub26.html

by lerwin1 on May 26, 2006 9:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of the Cubs

I noticed Corey Patterson is having a pretty good year. I was kind of hoping that after last year the Cards would pick him up cheap and he'd be a superstar. Oh well.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson

by secretweapon on May 26, 2006 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Me too

He was really under a microscope in Chicago. He is doing nicely for Baltimore even though they had him on the bench to start the season. I wonder if he would become available if the Orioles fade away (which I think is likely).

OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on May 26, 2006 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

I was kind of hoping he'd come to the Birds and blossom too--maybe turn into the next Lou Brock-like trade that we could use to bait our brethren in blue. Ah well. Here's how the Northside fans are taking it:

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/story/2006/5/24/20510/4678

by rockin redbird on May 26, 2006 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quote from linked article...

"Who's safe on the roster? Put first baseman Derrek Lee, third baseman Aramis Ramirez, right fielder Jacque Jones and shortstop Ronny Cedeno on that list. They are signed for 2007 and seem certain to return."

Jacque Jones is "safe on the roster"? Maybe that's less to do with the position of the Cubs and more to do with the fact that nobody wants him.

by bgh on May 26, 2006 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's say that Reyes does crack the rotation

this year via a Marquis/Suppan trade. Does he even have a shot in hell of starting a postseason game. I agree that Reyes is certainly a better pitcher than either Marquis or Supp but if we are being honest, we don't need Reyes to get to the playoffs.

So even if he does break the rotation, posts a mid 3s ERA (of which I think he is perfectly capable) I still don't see him helping us where we need him the most - the playoffs. TLR is just too damn set on veterans and Mr. Ankiel may have damaged TLR/DD even further on that note.

I still think Reyes is a part of our future but I wonder if that future is near enough to have immediate benefits.

by azruavatar on May 26, 2006 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Odds

What is the probability of Walt forcing Tony's hand in using a young pitcher by trading Marquis for a bat? Especially in the wake of Carp and Ponson's injuries?

by bgh on May 26, 2006 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

pretty limited

first, with injuries to carp and ponson, trading a pitcher is probably the last thing on the walt's mind. second, there likely arent any meaningful OF upgrades that could be had via a marquis trade. he just isnt likely to be too interesting to playoff contending teams and non-playoff teams arent going to want a rent-a-player.

if walt forces tony's hand, it would be next year by not bringing in any veteran competition for reyes.

by dmb60614 on May 26, 2006 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

El Duque to Mets thins out an already

threadbare AZ rotation maybe, just maybe if we cough up Marquis, a Lambert/McCormick low level pitching prospect, and some spare parts a la John Gall we can swing an OF prospect from them. Maybe if that were the case (getting better and younger for Marquis et al I'd jump on that

by azruavatar on May 26, 2006 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Man, we're calling a guy withi 59 ks in 55 innings

a groundball pitcher? Sweet!

by sdrone on May 26, 2006 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Btw, that small ball article

is a good read. I enjoy when someone compiles the stats to answer a question I've had in the back of my mind.

by sdrone on May 26, 2006 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sounds like

this is the power, high K pitcher the team could really use, as you've discussed here before, boros. I can't believe in a season with so many rookie phenoms on mounds around the league Reyes has to play in Memphis. Of course, our rotation has been fine, but still...

Cardinals Diaspora

by VanRam on May 26, 2006 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

wow

I wonder if we can get through a post without some backhanded slap about Tony/Duncan not using young pitchers.

Again, no actual facts to back up such a claim but if you say it enough, then enough people believe it as truth. It has been documented time and time again that Tony/Duncan will use a young pitcher. However, they WONT use them for the sake of using them.

I realize the sample is very small. But I watched Reyes start versus the Royals very closely. He pitched 5.2 innings, only struck out one guy and actually had only two swing and miss strikes.

Now, I like Reyes. I think he will be a nice pitcher for us. But he looked no better/different than Jason Marquis/Jeff Suppan/Sidney Ponson, etc.

Unless he is an OBVIOUS upgrade, which there is zero evidence that he is, then why obsess over having him in the rotation.

Heck, I watched the last Marquis start and he was at 93-94 MPH consistently. I didn't see Reyes throw that hard in his start.

Folks..there is a difference between AAA batters and major league batters.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 26, 2006 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Those are all very

good points, I can't argue with them. I guess my major gripe is that with highly valued prospects, there has to come a time when a team FINDS OUT just what they have on their hands. Finding out requires putting those young players into ML games for a significant chunk of time (e.g., 3-4 solid weeks for a position player and perhaps 5-7 straight starts for a SP). And what bugs me -- whether it's the use of Reyes or Luna or Rodriguez, etc., is that I'm wondering when we're going to see that. I am not prepared to say that either JRod or Luna, for instance, are capable of being everyday players, and I'm not prepared to say that Reyes is ready to hold down a rotation spot. But damn, I can't reach any kind of conclusion if we don't TRY. If Gall or Duncan can't get a shot at 1B because they're blocked by Pujols, it's time to ship them out. But that is miles away from saying we can't give a promising young player a shot because he's blocked by Marquis/Suppan/Ponson, or 36-year-old, never-gonna-get-better So Taguchi.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 26, 2006 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

AMEN!

well said Beanocook. I'm definitely with you there. I'm honestly getting pretty tired of all this harping on Reyes and everyone ranting about how much better he is than the 'awful and worthless' Marquis. First of all, its not like Reyes is even dominating AAA so why is he the saviour of our rotation in the bigs? Secondly, Marquis leads the staff in W's. Maybe that should count for something.

Pujols For MVP!

by TheFranchise9 on May 26, 2006 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there's only one way

to find out if reyes is better than marquis -- let him pitch.

we know what marquis can and can't do; maybe reyes can do better.

by lboros on May 26, 2006 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i disagree completely

I don't think La Russa gives rookies (eso. pitchers) a fair shake. Are you really telling me that Marquis was better during his horrific 14 games w/o a win stretch (or what ever it was) last year than Wainwright. Talk about obvious upgrde. Marquis is terribly inconsistant and if Reyes isn't an upgrade he's certainly Jason's equal. I know minor leagues are the same as the majors but Jason has not been terribly impressive given the defense he plays in front of and the offensive support he gets. Reyes may be an upgrade and won't be a downgrade explain to me why we don't try him out. What more can he prove in the minors? How will staying in AAA improve him as a pitcher??? And what could we have afforded this offseason if we weren't toting around a 5 million dollar (which is cheap, by todays standards) Marquis when we have a 300K Reyes/Wainwright who could do as well.

Perhaps the best example of rookie pitchers not getting a fair shot: Spring training 06 - Wainwright was better than Ponson. Period. Ponson is in the rotation. Please explain again how Wainwright got a fair shake on that.

I'm glad that TLR and DD can refine the trash heap into gems like ponson but I'd like to see our cheap promising arms from AAA get a shot too. Why does it always have to be a retread?

by azruavatar on May 26, 2006 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

Im not going to bore everyone with the names of young pitchers Tony/Duncan have gone with in the past.

Rick Ankiel (then he gets riduled for using him TOO much)
Bud Smith
Jose Jimenez
Brad Thompson
Dan Haren

All of these guys played major roles for the Cardinals and were under the age of 25 years old.

I've also never understood the obsession with Wainwright as a starter. I like him now as a reliever but he did NOT project to more than a No. 4 starter in the bigs. His numbers at AAA the last two years were not overly impressive.

Again...this is about winning championships. This isn't about doing what is best for Anthony Reyes. I understand fans have this weird obsession with prospects. But, again, be a fan of the Marlins if you are concerned with player development and less on winning titles.

I just dont see Jason Marquis as an awful pitcher like many here do.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 26, 2006 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

remind me again

how marquis gets the cardinals closer to a championship?

last year he was such an asset that he got dumped from the postseason rotation. but he still managed to contribute mightily to a loss in game 4 of the nlcs by walking two men, botching a bunt, and then losing his cool with the umps to the point that the manager had to come out and get himself tossed.

in the 2004 postseason he walked 13 men in 14 innings and had an era of 5.65. his career postseason numbers: 22 innings, 23 hits, 18 walks, 0-2 record, 4.57 era.

maybe reyes could do better. . . . .

by lboros on May 26, 2006 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Danny Haren?

You mean the Danny Haren who started THIS game?

http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09030CHN2003.htm

Re-live that game and then tell me that TLR trusts the youngsters in the heat of battle.

by salvomania on May 26, 2006 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haren

Also pitched in five games in the 2004 postseason including two of the four World Series games. I remember at the time being impressed with TLR's willingness to use him in pressure situations in the playoffs.

OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on May 26, 2006 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

that our pitching staff was a tad short....

by sdrone on May 26, 2006 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

I'm curious about how you're defining the word 'major' as in "All of these guys played major roles for the Cardinals"
Especially if your statement that "this is about winning championships" is true, which I belive it is. Remind me how many championships this austere group helped the cards win.
"I understand fans have this weird obsession with prospects." I'm confused. On one hand, you champion tlr/dunc's use of young pitchers, but on the other, only want the veterans that we are currently using. Why not give a kid with great talent the opportunity to be an all-star caliber pitcher when it's clear that at least two of your current veteran pitchers (Marq/Soup) aren't going to attain that level. I'll even grant that maybe Marquis isn't 'awful', but if Reyes has the potential to push us closer to that championship, why not give him a chance?
"But, again, be a fan of the Marlins if you are concerned with player development and less on winning titles." Except that they've won two WS titles since our last. Ooops. That Beckett kid who won game 7 of their last title for them bears some resemblance (pitching profile-wise) to Reyes. Certainly the fish didn't win their first with their current 'youth development/fire sale' model, but...

That having been said, I understand your point that youth alone won't win championships; however, a balance of veterans and youth, as well as continuous development of young players and a willingess to use them when veterans may not take you to the promised land seems essential. It's not Marquis' awfulness that concerns me, it's his inconsistency. Same with Supp. Cy Young one night, Estaban Yan the next. Do I know absolutely that Reyes won't be the same? Not until he's in the rotation, taking the bump every 5 games.

by sdesserman on May 26, 2006 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hate to say it...

"But, again, be a fan of the Marlins if you are concerned with player development and less on winning titles."

But the Marlins have won 2 in since we've won our last one.

I don't want a win it, burn it every 3 years, but I think there is something to having some youth on the roster. I'd like to see Reyes get an extended shot. He's had a few cups of coffee, lets give him a pot and see how he handles it. Baring another 20 million in payroll, we're gonna need him next year.

by pcgd on May 26, 2006 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

prospects, prospects, prospects

sure AAA prospects are fun and sexy and boy oh boy how promising they all seem to be. but the bottom line is that how many actually pan out in the bigs? 20%? I sure could make a much longer list of guys like Ben MacDonald and Ben Grieve and Rick Ankiel than I could of say Jeremy Bonderman and Miguel Cabrera.

Most are lucky to have the career that Marquis has had. Need I also mention the guy is still just 27? I think he's doin alright for himself and I'd like to see him in STL for several more years.

Pujols For MVP!

by TheFranchise9 on May 26, 2006 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

but since most prospects

are failures, does that mean that no prospect should ever be given a chance? i don't think you believe that.

reyes deserves a chance to prove himself. he might fail; but he might surprise you and be a big asset to the team.

until he gets a chance to pitch, we'll never know.

by lboros on May 26, 2006 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand

To a point but what do you do with Marquis/Suppan in the meantime??

I don't think you move them to the pen. Plus, I've ALWAYS loved having six major league caliber pitchers. As I posted a week or so ago, the Cardinals have been EXTREMELY lucky in the injury area. The starters have gone to the post 98% of the time the last 2+ years. Thats remarkable.

I think Tony/Dunc/Walt all feel Reyes is a major league caliber pitcher. Heck, they liked having him in case a starter or two went on the DL (as usually happens). However, unfortunately for Reyes that just hasn't happened in the last couple years.

Its more a freak of no injuries than it is a testament to Anthony Reyes. I love having a guy like Reyes who is ML ready whenever an injury happens.

Reyes is also a tradeable commodity. Why expose him at the major league level when you don't have to?

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 26, 2006 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lucky?

Im assuming that extremely lucky is not including missing our number one starter for the entire 2004 playoffs...

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

your point is well taken

re the cards' rotation health; they have been lucky. this year we've already had one trip to the DL (ponson), and carpenter will likely make two; it is good to have depth.

but is it a luxury the cards can afford? not this year, in my opinion. their holes elsewhere are so glaring -- partic in the outfield -- and they will be exposed even more starkly in the postseason. come october, you don't need 6 starters; you only need 4, and 3 good ones will usually get you by. so if the cardinals are planning for october -- and in my mind that's what they should be doing -- it makes sense to convert that pitching depth into other commodities that might improve the team's postseason chances, such as an impact outfielder or a #1/#2 starting pitcher.

the pro-reyes sentiment isn't born of a blind fetish for young players. it's a desire to see the cardinals optimize the use of their resources, and head into october with the best possible distribution of talent.

by lboros on May 26, 2006 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well said LB

And I think it also shows the fans' desire to look ahead to next season and the pending implosion of the rotation. We want to see if Reyes and Wainwright can fill holes there. We all believe that there is no way that all four potential free agent pitchers will be back. Reyes needs to get some time at the major league level. I wouldn't mind seeing him get some innings in the pen.
As for Marquis, as frustrated as I have been with his inconsistency, I love his bat. I know we don't value pitchers for their bats, but he has produced in a couple of important situations off the bench that have helped the Cards win games. I still find myself wishing that somehow he could find some consistency on the mound.

OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on May 26, 2006 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IMO, rotation depth is overrated...

the Cards just won a game this week trotting out middle relievers. After all, what did that rotation depth do for us last October? Any team looking to set itself up for the postseason must deal from a strength to improve a weakness. After winning a World Series and signing Paul Konerko, who would have thought the White Sox could land Jim Thome? I'll be willing to be he comes up in a big spot in October and makes Kenny Williams look like a genius. Right now, Marquis is looking better to outsiders because of his W-L... all the more reason to move him soon. If there is a team willing to take on the geriatric El Duque and Dave Williams... there has to be a market for Marquis. As for Reyes, he needs to be on the big league roster as long as one of the staff is DL'd. If he stinks, nothing was lost... we would just be sending replacement level pitchers to the mound, anyway.

by Matt on May 26, 2006 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

With you. I would have no problem putting Reyes in the rotation if it means trading a Marquis to make the team better.

I just dont like the idea of bumping a Marquis or Suppan just so we can "try out" Reyes on the major league level. I guess that's the difference to me.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 26, 2006 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Luck

I'd say the rotation's stability has less to do with luck and more to do with the type of starter the franchise pursues in free agency and trades (except for Carp.) To me, that is one reason the offseason pursuit of AJ Burnett was so damn exciting for everyone - they seemed to be breaking from the pattern of going after the dependable guy who maxes out at "B+," and going after the high-risk, high-reward guy.

by flynn on May 28, 2006 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A friend saw this blurb at...

... Baseball Prospectus. They had reviews of up and coming players or something like that.

While St. Louis righthander Anthony Reyes pitched 5 2/3 shutout
innings in his first major league start of the season (if a start
against the Royals counts as a major league start), and has a 48-6
strikeout-to-walk ratio in 52 1/3 innings for Triple-A Memphis, one
scout feels he has regressed. "He's at 95 mph and he's got a good change, but his breaking ball has gone backwards and it's because of Tom House," said the scout. "House
turns guys into dart throwers, and their elbow ends up sucking int
their body and they get under the ball and their arm action gets
messed up." As for the fact that injured Cubs righty and fellow USC alum Mark Prior is considered by some to have ideal mechanics and turned Reyes onto House, the scout
was more concise. "Anybody who says Mark Prior has great arm action
doesn't know what they are looking at," he argued.

by sdrone on May 26, 2006 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Chicago Brawl Notes

Barrett gets 10 and a fine. Anderson gets a 4 and a fine. And the Sox third base coach gets 2 and a fine. Pierzynski also drew a fine. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2459060

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2006 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

other notable.....

In Washington, Lecroy pulled in the middle of an inning after two throwig errors and 7 stolen bases against.... interesting.

Also, Abe Nunez was supsended 50 games for testing positive for a banned substance. no doubt he didn't know what he was ingesting.

"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on May 26, 2006 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Different Abe Nunez

this guy was an outfielder in the Giants' organization. I don't think anyone would accuse Philly Abe Nunez of taking anything but Sudafed for a cold.

by Matt on May 26, 2006 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Michel Hernandez

Speaking of AAA, does anyone know much about Memphis' starting catcher Michel Hernandez. I was just looking through the Redbirds' stats and he has a .726 OPS. Not earth shattering but certainly better than Molina and Bennet.

by jojo5492 on May 26, 2006 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

at this point

the cardinals should be willing to try anything new at the catcher position. ps. jojo, this is just a hunch, but I bet you have a sexy roommate from st. charles.

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis

Everyone is talking about how Marquis has solid trade value right now because he has a decent win / loss, hes been getting lucky, etc and his numbers are more or less better than he actually is. However, if a bunch of schmucks on a cardinals blog can see this, don't you all think opposing teams know this. Just because Harold Reynolds says on baseball tongiht that marquis is a great young pitcher doesn't mean thats the feeling among gm's, scouts, etc.

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

its not about how good he is

its about the fact that teams are out there right now (D'backs and Mets) with threadbare rotations and Marquis a)has a good injury record and b) can give you 6 innings (crappy ones albeit) on most nights.

His value isn't as a dominant starter but as someone who can fill in the back end of the rotation so that a team can just GET to the playoffs. If it weren't for the fact that he came from ATL I'd say they'd be interested too.

by azruavatar on May 26, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I agree with that, and I'm not saying that no teams will be interested in Marquis. Im just saying an end of the rotation pitcher whose main thing is to eat innings isn't going to get you anything more than a decent prospect, not a signifcant outfield bat or power pitcher Id guess. We would have to package Marquis with a few significant prospects, such as a Marquis + Wainwright + Reyes, to actually get a significant upgrade I would guess. And I can't imagine that helping the Cards this postseason.

On a separate note, the Cardinals are no lock to make the postseason yet, so I think its a bit early to plan for October at the expense of the regular season. And having a pitcher like Marquis, who tends to not get injured and does eat innnigs like you said, may not help a lot in October, but he's nice to have during the regular season.

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Some teams would be interested in Marquis

but I think George's point is that most people realize that Marquis is not a dominant starter, therefore most teams won't be willing to give up an outfielder who is an better than what we have now in exchange for Marquis. Right now, an equal value trade with Marquis for a position player isn't all that exciting. Therefore, Marquis doesn't have much value by himself as a trade option.

by jojo5492 on May 26, 2006 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

never know

until you try. jocketty got scott rolen with a package built around placido polanco, and larry walker and chuck finley for nothing; if you bundle marquis with a guy like brad thompson, then find the right trading partner that's a) contending this year b) desperately short of pitchers and c) glutted in the outfield . . . . maybe you get something done. the dbacks fall into that category; so might the rangers, the phillies (who lost cole hamel to injury), possibly the indians.

i see your point, and i do think it'll be hard to deal marquis. but they might as well try.

and even if they can't get value for him, that's no reason to keep him around cluttering up the postseason roster. between his pitching and his bitching (about not starting) last october, he was a major negative. he'd be addition by subtraction, imho.

by lboros on May 26, 2006 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis

I see your point, and obviously its worth trying to trade Marquis. However, the two trades you mentioned were about teams basically being willing to move players because either the player wanted out (Rolen) or they were trying to dump salary (Walker). - Note: maybe those werent the two reasons, but thats how I understood the two trades when they happened. - either way though, in those trades, it seems Jocketty was in the right position at the right time, reacting to teams who already wanted to move players and weren't concerned about the upcoming postseason.

However, the case with Marquis is different in that he's going to have to trade Marquis to a contender because Marquis's contract is up at the end of the season, so I can't see a non-contender wanting someone like Marquis. So therefore, teams are going to be looking for an equal value trade. And a player of Marquis' value won't upgrade the Cards.

Also, I'm sure teams know the Cards are looking to move a pitcher, which puts the Jocketty at a disadvantage bc other teams know Jocketty wants to move him, so they are going to demand more for their outfield bat / power pitcher because its what the Cardinals need.

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sounds like philly

a) contending this year
yup

b) desperately short of pitchers and
yup, esp with their saviour cole hamels broken

c) glutted in the outfield . . . .
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/015020.php

Imagine facing abreu, pujols, rolen, edmonds and Jenc every other inning...

by SleepyCA on May 26, 2006 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

problem

the problem with abreu, he's making 13.6 mil this year, and the owners have said they arent adding payroll. at least thats the impression I've gotten. but either way, it would take a lot more than just marquis to get abreu.

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Finley

He's not an all-star, but I wouldn't call Coco Crisp nothing. He'd look nice in leftfield this year.

by flynn on May 28, 2006 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis

I think disgruntled/spoiled Cardinal fans are WAY, WAY too harsh on Mr. Marquis. No, he isn't Cy Young but he isn't Anthony Young either.

As a Cardinal Jason is 34-25, 4.08 ERA, 1.302 WHIP.

I can live with that.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on May 26, 2006 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

you

you can live with Marquis during the regular season, but everyone's point is that in the postseason, the disparity between a mediocre - decent pitcher (such as Marquis) and a very good - great pitcher (Carp, Mulder?) gets much bigger. so I don't think anyone is being spoiled when they argue they don't want Marquis as a postseason starter, because quite frankly no team would want Marquis as a postseason starter.

by PGeorge on May 26, 2006 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

marquis was legitimately good

in 2004 -- he got groundballs (go/fo ratio of 2:1) and he struck people out (more than 6 whiffs per 9). but it has been all downhill from there; the league has adjusted to him, and he either won't or can't counteradjust. he no longer gets groundballs reliably, and his strikeout rate is alarmingly low.

if he were the same guy we had in 2004, i'd have a much less negative opinion about him. but he's not the same pitcher . . . .

by lboros on May 26, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis, Michel Hernandez, and Reyes

I think Marquis has the potential to be a solid #3 starter in this rotation, especially if Bennett can right Jason's heeled-over ship. Gary, I think, has a better rapport with Marquis' fragile ego, which was constantly battered by Molina's aggressive approach. We've seen flashes of brilliance from Jason and I think he can continue to do it.
I'm not real happy that Yadier is hitting as poorly as he is, or that Gary isn't much better, but there is little hope that Michel Hernandez is going to be a significant improvement over the two incumbents. Never mind the potential drop-off in defensive skills and relationships with the pitching staff. Hernandez should be used for the role that he is currently assigned: develop skills at AAA and be available in the case of injury.
Don't have any numbers in front of me, but doesn't Anthony Reyes have 18.2 innings under his belt with only 10 hits surrendered? And an acceptable walk-rate? And upside to go with that? And the vast potential to forge a legion of Cardinal fans that arrive at the ballpark with flat-billed caps? I don't see where the problem lies here. Young, cheap pitcher with limited, but exceptional results. No, that's OK, I'll stick with the youngster.

by Solanus on May 26, 2006 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Chuck Finley

Um, didn't Walt give up Coco Crisp for Finley? And isn't Crisp doing a reasonable Johnny Damon impersonation (when not on the DL)? I wouldn't say Jocketty got Finley for nothing...

by Pokey Joe on May 26, 2006 7:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Finley/Crisp

Actually I was thinking the same thing. That deal turned out pretty bad for Jocketty. The only reason it doesn't seem worse is bc it took a few years for Crisp to break through at the MLB level.

Pujols For MVP!

by TheFranchise9 on May 26, 2006 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs