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five more years

before we get to the extension, a few updates you may or may not have heard:

  • vicente padilla will return to the rangers on a 3 yr / $33m deal, with an optional 4th
  • the padres are close to signing greg maddux --- could impact the zito ransom, as the pads have been considered leading buyers
  • also re the padres: they signed jose cruz jr, a cult favorite at VEB
  • espn's steve phillips says the cubs might get jason jennings for jacque jones and carlos marmol in a three-way trade involving pittsburgh. phillips is far from 100 pct reliable, but this one could be true --- hendry and dave littlefield have done a lot of bizness together
there's also the news that the cards have offered three-year deals to schmidt and batista (they had apparently offered padilla one as well before he came to terms with his old team) and have offers on the table to suppan and weaver. that's as much as i know from monday's swap-meet action.

so, the extension --- three add'l guaranteed years (2009 through 2011), with an option for a fourth (2012). as i noted at first blush yesterday, the deal comes in spite of the cards' aversion to committing more than three years of guaranteed money to any pitcher. there's a simple reason for that philosophy: all pitchers are injury risks. in locking up carp for five years (his age 32 through age 36 seasons), the cardinals accept the fairly high likelihood that, at some point during the life of the contract, carpenter will miss half a season with an injury; might even need a little surgery (on his shoulder, elbow, back, or whatever). that's not to criticize the deal or to judge it; it's just to state the facts. name a significant cardinal pitcher of this decade who hasn't needed some significant down time and/or a trip to the operating room. matt morris? surgery after the '04 season. woody williams? in and out of the rotation in '02, arm problems in '04. darryl kile? shoulder surgery between the 01 and 02 seasons. andy benes? knee trouble. izzy and mulder, you know about. carp himself has already had a significant outage since joining st louis, missing september 2004 and all of that year's postseason. it just comes with the territory; happens to the pedro martinezes and curt schillings and rocket clemenses and andy pettittes of the world, too. even bob gibson had two lengthy disablements ('67 and '73) while at the height of his powers.

the question isn't really whether or not carpenter can stay healthy for five years; he probably won't. the question is whether he's a good enough pitcher to justify the contract in spite of the probable down time --- and whether he'll remain that good over the life of the deal. which brings us to the other risk that teams run when they sign pitchers to half-decade deals: sometimes pitchers just lose it. i'm thinking here of guys like tim hudson and josh beckett, who both have sev'l years to go on contract extensions they signed before or during 2006 --- and which their teams now probably wish they hadn't offered. in a lesser sense, i'm thinking of guys like mike hampton, denny neagle, russ ortiz, and even darryl kile (vis-vis the rockies) --- ace-type pitchers who signed long, expensive free-agent deals and then almost immediately stopped pitching well. the injury risk is unavoidable, but what are the odds that carpenter will turn into a below-average pitcher at some point during the next five years?

not very high, thankfully. carp appears to have joined a rare class of pitchers, those who manage to escape the gravitational pull of the mean and perform at high altitude over the life of their careers. the list of pitchers who've matched his achievement of the last three seasons --- 50+ wins and a .700+ winning percentage --- is very short and very sweet. here are the only guys who've done it in the last 20 years:

pitcher years age record pct era cy?
clemens 88-90 25 62-25 .713 2.80 yes
santana 04-06 27 55-19 .743 2.75 yes
pedro 97-99 27 59-19 .756 2.29 yes
glavine 92-94 28 55-23 .705 3.24 no
carp 04-06 31 51-18 .739 3.10 yes
big unit 93-95 31 50-16 .758 2.97 yes
maddux 95-97 31 53-17 .757 2.21 yes
smoltz 96-98 31 56-23 .709 2.96 yes
welch 88-90 33 61-23 .726 3.21 yes
schilling 01-03 36 53-22 .707 3.07 no
wells 98-00 37 55-22 .714 4.16 no
moyer 01-03 40 54-21 .720 3.34 no

the "age" column represents the pitcher's age in the last year of the three-year run; the "cy" column asks whether or not the pitcher won a cy young award during the three years. these guys are listed in order of age, youngest to oldest.

i'm well aware that wins are a discredited statistical category these days, but the fluke factor vis-vis wins decreases in magnitude over time; a pitcher might have one lucky season with a high win total/pct, but to string together three such years in a row you actually have to be good. it will be argued that these guys just had the good fortune to pitch for good teams, hence racked up lots of wins; the counterargument would be that they helped make the teams good, were active agents rather than passive beneficiaries.

toss out whatever caveats you want to; it's still a pretty compelling list. aside from the old fogeys at the bottom of the list (ie, wells and moyer), these are all strong hall-of-fame candidates, if not sure-thing inductees --- elite pitchers year in, year out. discount bob welch if you want to; he won 211 games in his career and won 6 of his 9 postseason starts, which is not terrible. admittedly, most of these guys aren't particularly comparable to carpenter. clemens and pedro were both significantly younger at the time they achieved this feat, while schilling wells and moyer were much older; big unit's a physical freak, maddux a mental freak, glavine a soft-tossing lefty. (by the way, several of these pitchers --- clemens, pedro, big unit, glavine, maddux --- had multiple three-year segments of 50 games / .700 pct.) in my mind the most comparable pitcher here is smoltz, who remains an elite starting pitcher nearly a decade after the 3-year run cited here. let's just ask: how effective and durable were these guys in the five years after winning 50 in 3 seasons? table:

pitcher years age innings record era
clemens 89-93 30 1191 85-52 2.85
pedro 00-04 32 937 75-26 2.53
glavine 95-99 33 1137 79-41 3.13
big unit 96-00 36 1039 80-31 2.74
maddux 98-02 36 1152 89-44 2.88
smoltz 99-03 36 390 17-15 2.88
welch 91-94 37 579 35-37 4.80
schilling 04-08* 41 880* 70-35* 3.93
wells 01-05 42 900 66-36 4.06
moyer 04-08* 45 1000* 51-55* 4.59

since schilling and moyer have only had three "post" years so far, i just took their averages for won-loss and innings and extrapolated to five seasons; hence the asterisks. again, with the exception of the old guys, every one these pitchers remained ace-caliber for the next five years; some actually pitched better, although they didn't necessarily rack up wins with quite the same frequency. they also largely remained healthy --- all except smoltz, whose elbow problems (a recurrent nuisance) finally forced him to the bullpen for several years, where he became the game's best closer.

one other player who jumps to mind as a comp for carp is kevin brown. his career path has been very similar to carp's --- came up in the american league, at about the same age as carpenter, and was/is a similar type of pitcher: lotta strikeouts and groundballs. like carp, brown was pretty good but not dominant in his 20s (although he did have one luck-aided 20-win season), but blossomed at around age 30 into a cy young-caliber pitcher after coming to the national league. between 1996 and 1998 (his age 31 through 33 years), brown won 51 games with a .662 winning percentage and a 2.33 era, during which period he anchored two pennant-winning rotations, won a world championship, and had two top-3 cy young finishes. at the end of that run, brown signed the first $100 million contract ever awarded to a pitcher --- and one that is often held up as an object lesson in why you don't commit to pitchers for more than a few years. but that was a 7-year contract; if you only judge it by the first five years (ie, the same length as carp's extension), it's not quite so terrible. brown went 58-32 in those five years with a 2.83 era in 873 innings --- an average of 175 innings per year. he was completely healthy for three of the five seasons (nos. 1, 2, and 5); he made 30+ starts in each of those years, went a combined 45-24 with a 2.68 era, made two all-star teams and had two top-10 cy young finishes. his park-adjusted ERA+ for those years was north of 160. essentially, he had 3 full years akin to carpenter's 2006. however . . . . in 2001 and 2002 brown was on and off the DL, making only 29 starts combined in those years.

my point is that even kevin brown, whose contract is deemed a disaster, continued to pitch extremely well and delivered considerable value in the first five years of his deal; the tradeoff for that value was a couple of injury-plagued seasons. even one of those years was not a total loss --- brown went 10-4 with a 2.65 era in 2001 and was available in september; had the dodgers made the playoffs that year (they finished 6 games out), he would have been available as their game 1 starter. in any case, the injury risk is always there, with every pitcher; you can't avoid it. carpenter is the type of pitcher who is worth taking a bigger risk on, because when he's healthy he is almost certainly going to pitch like an ace --- now, and five years from now.

so put me down as a supporter; the cardinals are taking a sensible risk. a few other stray thoughts about the deal:

  • once again, the cardinals show themselves to be more willing to risk big dollars on a player who's already in the organization, than to risk same on a free agent from without. i chalk that up to character-related issues; the owners and management team won't risk a lot on a guy until they have gained trust in him and observed, first-hand, certain character traits in which they place great stock.
  • related to the above --- when the cards do have a surplus to spend, they'd prefer to spend it on their own guys; that's the team's de facto profit-sharing plan. some of the bonanza reaped from 8 home playoff games, plus god knows how much in direct sales / royalties related to world series memorabilia, has gone into the extensions for edmonds and carp, the two-year deal for spiezio, and the re-signing of bennett. only after dispersing those spoils is the team now looking outward, to plow whatever's left into the acquisition of new talent.
  • i support this deal but i can't say it particularly excites me; it doesn't make the team better this year. if we're really honest, we have to admit that the cards have done nothing so far to improve the team from its 83-win standard of 2006; the kennedy signing is essentially a lateral move, the wells signing is a low-risk crapshoot, and the rest of their moves are re-signings of the old gang. they can anticipate some internal gains, however, viz.: reyes and (hopefully) wainwright will have fulltime rotation slots, and they'll pitch much better than marquis and ponson/weaver last season. but the cards still need to bring in at least one reliable pitcher --- not even necessarily a high-impact one (although that'd be great). i'm still waiting to see who that guy (or those guys) is/are --- and i hope i'll be excited then.

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Lboros
I'm kinda shocked you come out in favor of giving Carpenter four more guaranteed years after not being much in favor of Edmonds.  There seems to be a lot parallels that you argued against the Edmonds extension (i.e. increasing risk when we didn't need to b/c of the option) that applies to Carpenter but in a much more extreme manner.

Even allowing you that Carpenter probably won't just lose it, this seems like a rather large risk that the Cardinals had little reason to take at this time.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 9:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

A significant non-parallel
would be if we hadn't re-upped JEd, we would probably never deal with him again.  It certainly wouldn't have cost us MORE money in the long run to keep him if we'd simply picked up the option, then tried to bring him back later.

If we hadn't re-upped Carp, it could have really bitten us financially.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 5, 2006 9:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the big difference
between carp and edmonds is this: carp is 31 and in his prime; edmonds is 36 and well past his prime. carpenter might well have another cy young or two left in him; edmonds assuredly does not have an mvp-type season left.

so, basically: there's a lot of upside with carp to offset the downside risk. with edmonds, it's almost all downside risk.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

add'l thought
i'm just now sifting through all of yesterday's comments, azru, and found your well-stated doubts about the extension. the basic question being: why extend carp now when they already had him locked up for two years? why not wait another year or two?

good question. my own thought is this: they're only taking on an extra year of risk by extending him now. they might have waited one more season, but they surely would have extended him before the 2008 campaign began ---- else he might decide to test the free-agent market at the end of that season, and the cards couldn't afford to run that risk. so they really only jumped the gun by one season; the only add'l risk they're taking on is the risk that he blows out his arm in 2007. and the risk of a catastrophic (ie, career-ending or -changing) blowout is not very high. and, as these tables show, i also don't think there's a high risk that carp will morph this season into a 14-11 pitcher with a 3.80 era.

they took a step they were going to take anyway one year from now; slightly greater risk, perhaps, but there'd be risks in waiting too (you never know how high the market will go next season).

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 11:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess had I been Walt
I would have waited the year at least.  It isn't reducing the risk dramatically b/c Carpenter would still require at minimum a 4 year extension but with so many holes in the rotation, I'm just not sure this would have been the move I would have made.

I was just curious how you were reconciling the support of this deal with your curiousity at the Edmonds deal.  It was a problem for me because I liked the Edmonds extension and I don't like this extension.  $$$ this big with pitchers just concerns me - regardless of the pitcher.  Definitely more upside here with considerably more risk as well.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think edmonds
is at the stage of his career where he is a year-to-year proposition; that's just my read of his abilities at this point. probably more pessimistic than most.

in any case, i wasn't/am not a huge critic of the edmonds deal; it's not going to be catastrophic even if he hits .211 this year or misses another 6 weeks with this injury or that. but i didn't understand what the club gained by adding the 2d year to edmonds' deal. i do understand what they gain by this deal: they lock up a premier pitcher for the rest of his prime years.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

renteria
i remember when we considered renteria a "core" player and waited to extend him.  although things turned out OK, it was a still a big mess that i would rather avoid.  i agree with the comment that it was a sensible risk.  carp is good enough and important enough to the team that making sure he is an old man before he is a free agent is a risk i am willing to take.

by dmb60614 on Dec 5, 2006 10:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great analysis
as always lboros.

One curious mention in the P-D story: Cards apparently pursuing Octavio Dotel. I would have thought the bullpen was about the last place that needed attention. Strikes me that this would only make sense alongside either a trade that would dispatch Looper, Thompson or Kinney and/or a  move of Wainwright to the rotation.

by DCGreg on Dec 5, 2006 9:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Signing someone like that gives you
the option of maybe trading Izzy's $8m?

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izzy won't be moved
with his contract, health issues and 10-5 rights.

Dotel provides added insurance and lets you move some of the younger parts like Thompson or Kinney in a trade.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 11:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dotel
current reports say dotel wants an opportunity to close next year. that means cleveland, kc, tampa bay, florida and cincy could be in the mix.  stl is probably out of it.

by dmb60614 on Dec 5, 2006 10:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Octavio Dotel -- our rotation
Getting Dotel is like getting a starter as it frees up Wainwright to go to the rotation.  I like the move if it happens.

Looks like our 2007 rotation will shake out this way:

Carp
Reyes
Wainwright
Bautista / Weaver
Wells
--------------
Narvie starting in the pen as the 3rd loogy but available to start if one of the 5 goes down.  I expect us to flip Rincon to somebody in need of a loogy for a prospect leaving Tyler J and Flores as the primary lefties in the pen.

Sure that means two young guys in the rotation but the economics of the game dictate it.  TRL and Dunc must adapt.

by jjray on Dec 5, 2006 10:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's
Batista, not Bautista

Aren't those 2 different pitchers??

by El Birdo Rojo on Dec 5, 2006 10:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be happy
with that pitching rotation. Reyes--or even Weaver--as your No. 2 pitcher? That's too shaky for my taste. Need to come up with a more legit veteran No. 2. I'd be more comfortable with suggestion below for G.Maddox at No. 2 and Reyes, Wainwright and Wells to round it out if Suppan, Weaver and Mulder are all going elsewhere. Even that rotation is pretty questionable.  

Basically, it seems we're singing the same tune we were singing most of last summer: Cards need one more top-flight pitcher and another big bat. Walt won the World Series by finding brand names at discount prices, although another big bat was never really found. I'd expect more of the same and will be pleasantly surprised if Walt goes out and gets a more proven commodity rather than trying to revive a player thrown to the recycle bin by another team.

Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what team is going to give us a prospect
in return for Rincon who may not even pitch again.  Flores, who is approaching arbitration, is far more likely to be moved imo.
Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rincon
Proven loogies are a commodity.  Rincon would have to come in spring training and prove he is healthy before we could move him ... but I believe he has some small level of value and could be moved after pitching in the spring.

You are correct sir ... Miguel Batista as opposed to Bautista.

by jjray on Dec 5, 2006 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As Always
Great info.  Tremendous tables, btw.  Personally, I like the extension quite a bit.  The finances of signing a guy like Carpenter are almost irrelevant.  Either you can get hold of that sort of player or you can't.  If you can, and your organization is any sort of perennial contender, then the money is secondary.  Carpenter is the kind of pitcher that a team can build a dynastic run around.  The revenue generated from that sort of success, and the leverage it gives a team when dealing with TV contracts, etc., pretty much offsets whatever the cost was to begin with.  

As for the question of his health, you're absolutely right that he will, at some point, miss a fair chunk of time w/injury.  But I don't think Carpenter is at all a big time health risk.  He has one of the best, most consistent deliveries in the game.  His arm action is as clean, as low torque, as you're going to see.  His big injury, the shoulder, can really be attributed to poor mechanics and, especially, poor balance.  (you think he falls off toward first base now?  Go back and watch old tapes of his first couple years w/Toronto.  Terrible, no repeatability whatsoever.)  Carpenter is really the sort of pitcher who has turned the corner, as opposed to one who just has a couple of fluke good years.  I like this deal.  Now, if the Cardinals could just find a setting to put this diamond into...

by the red baron on Dec 5, 2006 9:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maddux?
Would we ever considering giving Maddux the second year that Boras is seeking?  The guy is a low injury risk and should be a lock for 190+ innings at an ERA of 4.00-4.50, not to mention the benefits of having a HOF pitcher with his wisdom and experience on the staff.  I don't know if he'd consider leaving the west coast - and this would be an alternative if Schmidt/Batista/Weaver didn't work out.  This rotation wouldn't be bad:

Carpenter
Maddux
Reyes
Wainwright
Wells

We would only be on the hook for two years, and Duncan wouldn't have another project on his hands (in the above rotation he would already have three).  Might be too late for us to jump in.....am I crazy?

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 10:03 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

G-Mad
I actually kind of like that idea, also.  

I think Maddux needs a stupid nickname, btw.  All of Boras' clients seem to have one of the goddam things.  D-Mat? Seriously?  

by the red baron on Dec 5, 2006 10:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
I always thought "Mad Dog" was a pretty stupid nickname.

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mad dog
You're right, Fitz.  Mad Dog is a dumb nickname.  But it at least has actual words, and has some basis in the player's personality or what have you.  In that case, it's ironic to call Maddux "mad dog" because he's so mild manneres ordinarily.  The kind of dumb nickname I'm talking about is the kind all Boras guys have, where you just sort of mash their first initial and part of their last name together.  As dumb as Mad Dog may be, at least its composed of words.  Sorry, this is just one of those random things that drive me nuts.  

by the red baron on Dec 5, 2006 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh...
Yeah, that's pretty annoying too. Example:

D-Eck
A-Ken
A-Pu
S-Rol (that one actually is kinda cool)
J-Ed
So-Tag
C-Dunc
Ya-Mo (be there?)
C-Carp
K-Wel

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've always wanted to see Maddux with the cards
but I think he's probably too much of a risk for 2/$20M unless the second year was an option (perhaps automatic with an ERA under 4.5 and 150 IP), and two or three of the $10M per was in incentives.  There are just better options out there--really, 3/$34 or Padilla sounds better to me.

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 10:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking that way, too - but
The more I reflected on it, in this market guys getting $10mm+ for 3+ years have a variety of issues:  poor winning record, injury history/high injury risk, attitude/character questions, etc.  Maddux would come to the table as:  winner, great attitude, knows how to pitch, potential mentor for our youngsters, very low injury risk, very predictable innings/ERA.  In today's market isn't that worth $10mm for two years?  The length of contract eliminates a lot (obviously not all) the risk.  He might be interested enough to leave the west coast for a better shot at one more ring (he has one from the 1995 Braves) than San Diego or LA provide.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm surprised he's not re-signing
with the Dodgers. He seemed to really like it there.  

Is San Diego farther away from his home in Vegas?

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Is San Diego farther away from his home in Vegas?
About 2 hours drive time and 1/2 hour fly time.

Unless it rains then it's 5 hours drive time and 1/2 fly time.

He would get to drive past Temecula so he would have that going for him.

by Harknights on Dec 5, 2006 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've Heard he actually lives in Dana Point
Right here in OC and probably equidistant b/w San Diego and LA.  Depending when you go it is often quicker to go to San Diego than to LA.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 5, 2006 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dotel?
Now that's interesting.  If you remember, the Cardinals were after him last offseason too.  I would love to see them get him in here.  A big upside power arm for the back part of the bullpen would be great.  Wainwright could move into the rotation, there would be a whole lot less gnashing of teeth regarding Izzy, the Cardinals could even consider dealing Encarnacion, along with their only real surplus, (bullpen arms), in order to bring in some more youth for the rotation (future) or the outfield (present).  Where are you getting that from?  I haven't seen that rumour yet.  

by the red baron on Dec 5, 2006 10:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Dotel Allows for...
Wainright to move to the rotation

08 Rotation will have Carpenter and then Reyes/Wainright/Narvelson(or other young arm) for very cheap.

Use the extra cash to sign that big bat to replace the diminshed Edmonds...

I'm thinking Vernon Wells in CF.  

by El Birdo Rojo on Dec 5, 2006 10:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Have you seen the money people are
starting to throw around for Vernon Wells?   It's ridiculous.

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 11:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

huh?
Gary Bennett - $900,000
Jose Cruz Jr. - $650,000

That doesn't add up.  All the more reason the Cards should have given Jose a chance as their pseudo-platoon/backup OF for lil Dunc and sometimes Jimmy.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Dec 5, 2006 10:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

that sure seems like a missed opportunity
wasn't really pleased when i saw that.  That's how the Cardinals can make legitimate improvements while keeping costs down.  I think they missed the boat here if we wind up platooning with Gooch or Wilson over Cruz.
Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Padilla, etc.
If that's the going rate for second-rate, bad attitude pitchers, then I can't imagine the Cardinals getting all that involved in the FA pitcher market this year.  I had Padilla, Lilly, those guys as 8M a year at the upper end.  Hell, for that kind of money, none of these mokes looks a whole lot better than Narveson to me.  In fact, I am officially switching positions on Ted Lilly.  I loved him at 8, but 11 or more?  Good god.  The Cardinals need to try and go young, see if they can trade for some future kinds of arms, because this is absolutely nuts.  

by the red baron on Dec 5, 2006 10:13 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lilly not in bloom
I never seem to read anything that state Cards are in the mix for Lilly. Perhaps by design and things could change with one phone call, but I tend to think this isn't one of Walt's potential options.
Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't sure how to feel until...
I read this post.  Great job with all the info, tables, etc.  I'm happy that the organization chose to once again $hare the wealth; with players already with the team.  I think that, come 2010, we'll be quite thankful that we got Carp for what we did, when we did.  If Vincente Padilla can get $10+ per year in 2006, what's the going rate for a guy like Carpenter going to be in 5 years?!

Now that the Cardinals have basically told Carp "Hey, you are worth alot more to us than the other pitchers out there, that's why we're paying you first. But we also need more pitchers, and we didn't want to offend you with any deal we might make." I have a sneaking suspicion that this will lead to the signing of Jason Schmidt.  

I could be wrong, could be right, we shall see. Either way I'm pleased with the deal now, and I think I'll be more and more pleased in the next 5 years.  

by SethWestern on Dec 5, 2006 10:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

fantastic post, lboros
i don't usually post unless i have something important to say, but a post that helped me get through the first ten minutes of my workday with insight such as this one deserves heartfelt thanks.

by gthedamned on Dec 5, 2006 10:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Here, here
always insightful, always so well-written, always timely posting (I live in Eastern Time zone and check this site first thing every morning by 9 a.m. and almost without fail there is already a new post for the day) ... too bad awards aren't given out for these blog sites ... I can't imagine a better one ... VEB is a daily joy.  
Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 11:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree
not only is this blog fantastically written, but it has a good community.  a lot of other team blogs average about 10 replies.

by Jocephus on Dec 5, 2006 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do we really have to do that much?
It's been said already, but fantastic analysis.  From those tables, you can kind of see of how good Pedro really is (or was), too.  Anyway, I just have one point on this comment:

"we have to admit that the cards have done nothing so far to improve the team from its 83-win standard of 2006"

My point is, we spent a lot of the season without ever utilizing our line-up in its entirety (i.e. the lineup we used for the postseason).  Due to the success we had in the postseason with this current lineup, I get the feeling that management seems to believe that the lineup as is stands right now, doesn't need to be tinkered with.  Pitching is, obviously, the priority instead.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if management signs one to two more FA pitchers and doesn't sign or trade for any more position players.

by Hot in Herr on Dec 5, 2006 10:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

reasonable question
and a discussion for another day. my general position is this: the history of championship teams who stand pat is not a happy one. you gotta keep re-stocking the pond with fresh talent.

reyes and wainwright might represent the necessary new blood, and duncan provided an important (and unexpected) infusion of young talent. but historically speaking, re-assembling last year's team has been a losing formula for most champions.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
But every formula for the defending champs since the Yanks going into '00 has been a losing one.

It's nearly impossible to repeat as champions in today's MLB. I'm pretty sure this year proved better than ever that anything can happen in the playoffs -- the MLB playoffs are as close to a crapshoot as anything in pro sports. If the club looks like they'll be good enough to make the playoffs (and if they add another plus pitcher I think they will be) in '07, I'll be happy. Anything more than that, well I'll take it!

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

David Wells
I wasn't aware of him winning a Cy Young award.
Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Dec 5, 2006 10:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Disgusting human being
They must have taken into consideration eating cheeseburgers, drinking beer, and getting into bar fights as part of the Cy Young voting that year.  If that was the case, he should have won 10 Cy Youngs.

by Hot in Herr on Dec 5, 2006 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wells
That's because he didn't. Apparantely the Cy Young award doesn't use waist size as a qualifying statistic.

The closest he ever came was 3rd (1998 and 2000).

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 10:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my error
the perils of cut-n-paste . . . . i'll fix the table

by lboros on Dec 5, 2006 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very interesting comment about Dotel
If true, perhaps the rumors of a 3-way trade are accurate. Obviously the Cards have a well-stocked pen, so perhaps they would be moving a couple of guys out of there in the deal(s).

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2006 10:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Is any of the new money upfront?
Or does his 2007 salary stand as previously contracted?  

by RedbirdRay on Dec 5, 2006 10:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe
Carp gets 8.5M in '07

by mdarshan on Dec 5, 2006 11:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From the PD
"The deal was predicated on the Cardinals guaranteeing all appearance incentives the next two seasons. Carpenter, only 62 innings shy of his option vesting for 2008 before the deal, will now earn $8.5 million next season and $10.5 million in 2008. The club did not provide a breakdown of the extension or the buyout. However, if exercised, the option year (2012) makes the additional four years worth approximately $58 million."

by mdarshan on Dec 5, 2006 11:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

shouldn't affect it at all...
Carps big money doesn't come into play until 2009.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 5, 2006 10:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

suppan apparently
turned down an offer from the rox:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spbbnotes055003395dec05,0,5180918.story?coll=ny-sports -print

"National League Championship Series Most Valuable Player Jeff Suppan turned down a three-year, $21-million offer from Colorado, according to an official from an American League team, and Suppan will likely top that package, given where salaries are headed."

likely give us an idea of how much he'd cost us.  perhaps a place to cut bait and look for new talent.

by sdesserman on Dec 5, 2006 10:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I figure
Soup gets something like 3/30. Probably not from us though.

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 11:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

4/40
Wouldn't shock me. Whatever he gets, it will probably be too much... But hey, Good for Soup. Thanks for the times, you earned it.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2006 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not all about the $?
If I were a free agent pitcher, I'd leave money on the table and avoid pitching in Colorado. The thin air is terrible on your stats. Just look at Kyle and Hampton as an example of good pitchers gone bad in the mile-high city. I would want to take my best deal with a team and ballpark (and a bullpen) that gives me the best chance to be a winning pitcher as it would still be enough money to make generations of my family comfortable for a very, very long time.
Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 11:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Those stats are changing
While That's not the place to go if you want to be a shutdown pitcher, the stats have really changed over hte last few years.

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 11:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rule 5
The Rule 5 Draft is on Thursday. Does anyone know of a list of players eligible for the draft?

It seems unlikely that we could lose anyone of value, but hopefully we could pick someone up, although I don't know where we'd find the space.

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 11:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rule 5 Candidates
BTF is down again, but they had a fairly comprehensive list of unprotected players. (Might want to double check 40-man rosters--not sure when they compiled the list, and the site's down right now.)

The scout.com folks put together a list of candidates with scouting reports. Two prospects from each of 18 teams.

I don't see the Cardinals having any holes that need to be filled via Rule 5 unless we see a very good starter who could hide out in middle relief for a season. Sounds unlikely to me—I'm pretty excited to see what Hawksworth can do in 2007.

It goes without saying, but the Cardinals aren't in any danger of losing a player via Rule 5.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I pray this isn't true....
but Steve Phillips (I know, not the best source), said that the Rox offered Jason Jennings for Chris Duncan straight up, and Walt said it was too much.

I pray this information is wrong. Getting Jennings for Duncan would be a steal.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 5, 2006 11:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

he's not signed past this year
So unless we can sign him as part of this trade, it's Chris Duncan for a one-year rental of Jennings.  

by tdawg on Dec 5, 2006 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

one-year rental?
I can understand calling it a "rental" if the player only plays for a few months at the end of the season, but a full season isn't exactly a rental.

I think the love affair w/ young Dunc is gonna end this year when his fielding percentage never comes around. I would've taken that deal. Then again, I'm not Walt (thank goodness).

by effin fisk on Dec 5, 2006 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Please
say that Steve Phillips is wrong. But wait how much has he been right?

by Tarheel85 on Dec 5, 2006 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Odd....
Not to diss on Duncan, but he'd be just about as out-of-place in Colorado as he would be here.

If that were true, it would make me feel like Duncan's trade value is higher than we think and that Jocketty is just waiting for a super-great trade instead of an ok trade.

"In Jocketty We Trust"...or at least I do.

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I really trust him too
He really turned things around from the Dal Maxville (sp?) days.  I remember reading the paper (remember when you got your news from a paper) and seeing that Ron Gant and Andy Benes had both been signed prior to the 96 season, and I was so excited - although I know now in my heart that Gant is a bum.  Anyway, I love Jocketty, he's given us competitive teams for years and I try not to second guess him too much.  Last year was the hardest one, because I kept thinking prior to the season, in spring training, and then at the trade deadline - this can't be all, Jocketty will do something more.  He didn't, and it turned out to be probably my favorite postseason that I've witnessed.

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2006 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jennings
is only under contract for one more year.  although i am in favor of trading duncan, i would hold out for something better.

by dmb60614 on Dec 5, 2006 11:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

given our discussions
of duncan as ideally moving to a team that would use him at first, i find this hard to believe.  the rox just moved ryan shealy to kc last august and he's got potentially more upside than dunc at 1b.  had they wanted a converted 1st sacker, they could have held onto shealy.  i just don't see the rox interest in another outfield project defensively.

by sdesserman on Dec 5, 2006 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

duncan
Was more valuable last year thanb Rolen or Edmonds.  He has the potential to be a superstar and costs $400K.  I'm ecstatic to see that WJ isn't going to give him away for a #3 or #4 pitcher (or a middle reliever like Gonzalez).
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2006 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Cards already offered
something like that to Soup-can.

I'm not sure why $21MM would even be viewed as a particularly competitive offer.

----

Disagree on the Wainwright to the rotation idea. Not that it won't happen, but that if you follow the logic from last year, they will look for at least a backup plan. Which means acquiring another starter.

Whether that man is a No. 2 or a No. 5 is the big question.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2006 11:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think their plan
is to see what pitchers they can sign.  If they can put together a decent rotation without Wainwright, he'll stay in the pen and be the 8th inning/9th inning guy, helping us get back to our strong pen of 2004.

If they can get, say, Dotel, but not enough good starters, he'll go to the rotation.  

I just don't think it's set in stone yet.

by sdrone on Dec 5, 2006 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not that I count
but I'd sign a number 2 and let the 3 youngsters + wells fight it out in spring training for the last 3 spots and move the 3rd into the pen and use in case of injury.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 5, 2006 11:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the way
...I'd like to see it shake down as well.
Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 8:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Signing Carp...
does make the Cards better in '07 in that it had to happen prior to signing anyone else of note.

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2006 11:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Peavy
I love the analysis from the Houston Chronicle on the Astros' interest in Peavy:

"The Astros remain in talks with the Colorado Rockies for Jason Jennings. They also have inquired about San Diego Padres ace righthander Jake Peavy, who would likely come at a higher price, considering his age and relatively cheap contract for a player of his ability."

Gee, you think?  A higher price even than for Jennings?

Is this all hot air?  I'm not sure why the Pads would even consider dealing him.  But even if they were/are, I doubt even more that the Cardinals have enough talent in the system to pry him away.  

I guess the question is: just what would it take to get Peavy?  Is it even worth salivating about?

"Enamored" takes the preposition "of," not "with."

by MKDCardinal on Dec 5, 2006 11:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

What would it take?
I'm not sure we have what it takes - but does Houston?  I am not familiar with their prospects - maybe they have more in the pipeline than we do.  An "impact bat" would do the trick, probably - but neither Houston nor the Cards have any excess there to offer.  I don't think Peavy is going anywhere - if the Pads want to make another postseason run Peavy is the type of player they want.

by wildman on Dec 5, 2006 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hirsh is a pretty well regarded
pitching prospet projecting towards the front of a rotation and Hunter Pence (who now seems without a spot since Berkman is at 1b and Lee at LF) is said to have legit 30HR power.

Not sure that would do it but they have some good bargaining chips that are MLB ready.  Certainly moreso than the Cardinals.  I just don't see the Padres moving Peavy for a few more years.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2006 12:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They could deal
Ensberg and Lidge plus a prospect of some form.  If I were the Pads, I'd at least have to think about that.

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2006 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Peavy
I saw that article, too. I have to think that writer was trying to be funny. The Padres would be insane to trade away Peavy unless the Red Sox offered something stupid like Lester, Manny and Pedroia.

Hate to bring this up, but I'm thinking it's OK to talk about Dontrelle now. If Scott Olsen could walk one less batter per game he could very well put up better numbers than Willis in '07. With the Marlins' budget, you've got to think that they can only afford to extend one of Cabrera or Willis. I'd sign Cabrera and trade away Willis were I running their show.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

SD Radio
Had Kevin Towers on the other day and he stated that Peavy would not be dealt and will be back with the Friars next year.  This was in the context of the Manny rumors, but I can't see them sending him to Houston.  

by OCCardsFan on Dec 5, 2006 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carp signing: the timing was right
I'm impressed with your analysis, Iboros. I'm relatively new here but plan to make it my first stop for information about the Cardinals.

What I think was most important about the signing was the timing. Before rumors start floating around about offers to other pitchers, I think it was important to give Carp the message that he's numero uno and we want him to remain so for the next several years.

In terms of risk, his work ethic and attitude put him among the very top tier of pitchers. And I think it's often overlooked that arm injuries among Cardinal starters have been relatively rare over the past three years. I think Duncan does a good job of watching pitch counts and avoiding overworking his starters. Carp's nerve injury was an unusual type of problem, and Mulder was damaged when we got him. Woody and Morris had some recurring problems, but otherwise, it seems to me, our pitchers have been remarkably durable.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 5, 2006 12:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

At the outset of the postseason
Jocketty said that he was looking for one impact pitcher and one impact bat.  I feel like there is a lot of speculation about the pitcher - who could the bat be?  Floyd?  Payton?  Who is even left?

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2006 12:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

4th Outfielder
Did Chavez re-sign w/the Mets? I recall some speculation on this site about his availability and some recounting of his surprisingly nice stats...

by Pokey Joe on Dec 5, 2006 12:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Trade 'em
I would love to see a Duncan for Jennings trade. I think that would set up, what could be a lethal rotation. And, if we could pull it off, I would want to push HARD for Suppan to come back, but if not, settle for Mulder, then Weaver if all else fails.

With Duncan out, I would like to see the Cards go after Shannon Stewart or maybe even Gonzo or Daryle Ward. If Walt is not satisfied with one of those three, then use Rincon, Looper, Thompson... as trade bait and go out and get the outfielder they want.

But how good could this rotation be?

  1. Carp
  2. Jennings
  3. Suppan/Mulder
  4. Reyes
  5. Wells
With a lineup of maybe this
  1. Eck
  2. Kennedy
  3. Pujols
  4. Rolen
  5. Edmonds
  6. LF of choosing(Gonzo/Stewart/or maybe a big time bat for LF)
  7. Enc
  8. Molina
And then a bench of.
Miles
Speez
J-Rod
Taguchi
Bennett

Bullpen
Izzy
Wainy
Looper
Flores
Johnson
Hancock
Kinney

This is comincal, BUUUUUUT.. Do you think they see Ankiel as an option in LF if they insist on platooning again. I know that is pushing it because he has never played a full season of outfield in the bigs and he is an injury waiting to happen. But he is still a lefty hitting option to maybe platoon with Taguchi. We have to do something with him or lose him if he is not on the roster or injured list. Him or J-Rod has to go. I like the guy, but come on.... How long have we been paying for him to be in extended spring training?

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Dec 5, 2006 12:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rick Ankiel
I'm so tired of hearing about Rick Ankiel.

Until he's actually playing in left field of Busch Stadium, let's pretend he's dead.

by Fitz on Dec 5, 2006 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Too late...
WJ already turned it down.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Dec 5, 2006 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yearly salary
Given the quote from the P-D about Carp's 2007 and 2008 salaries, here's my new guess ($3mil buyout):

2007  8.5
2008  10.5  10.0   9.5
2009  14    12.7  11.6
2010  14    12.1  10.5
2011  15    12.3  10.2
2012  15    11.8    9.3

The second and third columns of numbers are that year's salary in 2007 dollars, assuming a 5% or 10% inflation rate respectively.  I think no matter how you look at it, this is a good deal for the Cards.  If we'd waited a year or two longer to negotiate, I don't think there's any way we could have matched this.

by john vb on Dec 5, 2006 1:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

American Legends
Hello,

This is a great blog.  I'm going to be sure to link yours to mine.  Would you mind doing the same for me?

Thank you very much.

My site:
www.americanlegends.blogspot.com

Take care,
Mark

www.americanlegends.blogspot.com

by JMEnglish on Dec 5, 2006 1:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Article updated...
just noticed that the article LB links above was updated with the salary figures:

"The Cardinals did not announce terms of the deal but it was learned Tuesday morning that it will pay Carpenter $14 million in 2009, $14.5 million in 2010 and $15 million in 2011. The extension also includes a $15 million club option for 2012, or the Cardinals may exercise a $1 million buyout.

Should the Cardinals assume the option for 2012, Carpenter will receive $77.5 million during the term of the deal.
Provisions also call for $2 million to be deferred without interest from each of the last three guaranteed years."

by Just Rope Ball on Dec 5, 2006 1:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow
That deferred money is huge.

I ♥ Carp.

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Break it down
Factoring in deferred salary, this contract is an undeniable steal. Using Cot's formatting scheme:
07 $8.5mil, 08 $10.5mil, 09 $12mil, 10 $12.5mil, 11 $13mil, 12 $15mil Club Option ($1mil buyout)

by liam on Dec 5, 2006 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miguel Batista
I would like always have a guy named Miguel on the team as much as the next guy, but is it really possible they offered Batista a 3 year deal?  Won't the guy be over a hundred in baseball years by the time he gets to the third year?

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2006 1:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Love resigning Carp
Makes complete sence to me. I've said it all along that the Cardinals needed to take care of Carp before they went after a free agent pitcher. Gald Walt & Co. listned to me. :-) This is a very smart move all around. Shows the potential free agents out there that at least one team in this crazy time of pro sports does have and practice loyality to it's players. it also rewards Carp for his amazing pitching preformances so far. I like it. I like it a lot.

those of you Chris Duncan haters out there willing to trade him for anyone who can pitch & a bag of balls, be careful what you wish for. unless Walt can get a big bat, and a good starter thats locked up for long term, it's not a smart move. I'm not sold on jennings from Colorado. I've just personally never been impressed with the guy. outside of Colorado he might be great. but I personally just don't see it. if the rumor is true, glad Walt turned it down. I'd rather see him dump Juan,JRod and a minor leaguer for a jennings type.

I know Chris had a bad game 5, but dang people, without that kid we don't even make it to October. I don't get the rush to dump him. young, cheep, lefty swinging powers hitters don't fall into your lap everyday. unless Walt gets blown away, I can't see him trading him. Don't give up on Chris yet. His D will improve, and his hitting can only get better sitting in front of Albert for a full season.

Hear me now, belive me later.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. My Blog: And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 5, 2006 2:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Carp's signing might even
make our free agent pitchers pause for a second and see this is a team focused on winning with players who want to win not just get the most money they can wherever that may be.  I am sure they all respect Carpenter and know he could have gotten tons more if he wanted to dangle his feet next year, and I have seen Suppan interviewed saying it is not about the money and how much is enough.  Granted that was on EWTN so of course he would say that.  Maybe they will think twice and see that the Cardinals will give them what they are worth, even though other teams will give them much more than they are worth.

Then of course they will go ahead and take the money, but maybe they'll fell a little guilty in doing so!

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 5, 2006 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

honestly
i dont think many players think about loyalty and winning.

they dont know how long they are going to be around, might as well get the best deal.

by Jocephus on Dec 5, 2006 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan
I don't think the people rooting for a trade of Chris Duncan are doing so because they "hate" him. They are merely looking at his historical statistical evidence that would suggest that his 3 months with the Cards this year are likely a fluke and that he will revert to his historical form. As for his defense, this kid has been playing baseball since he could crawl with a major league father. Don't expect it to improve too much at his age.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Dec 5, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Batista battle?
Ken Rosenthal reporting this:

The Royals have offered free-agent right-hander Miguel Batista a three-year, $24 million contract, but Batista also is receiving strong interest from the Cardinals, FOXSports.com has learned.

by DCGreg on Dec 5, 2006 2:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

batista
i would be more interested if we didnt already have wells on board.  batista is right on league average ERA+ with ground ball tendencies.  pretty similar to suppan imo.  if wainwright is in the rotation and the only free agent SP acquisitions were wells and batista i would be pretty disappointed.  

by dmb60614 on Dec 5, 2006 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think
batista is a decent middle-of-road starter.  -nothing spectacalar talent-wise, but he is a reliable and cerebral starter. He seems nicely fall in step with the Cards acquisitions of recent years such as Bottenfield,  W.Williams, Carpenter, Suppan, Mulder, etc.  Ponson seemed to break that mold - and look where he got us.  
The smart ones seems to blossom under Tony and Dunc's the methodical, analytical approach.

But if he's the impact starter that Jock spoke of, then i'm rather disappointed.
 

by _pistol_ on Dec 5, 2006 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
I don't view Bastista as any better than a No. 3 at best. If Walt did sign him up, I'd think that Cards are definately waving bye-bye to both Suppan and Weaver. It would also still leave team needing/searching for one more impact pitcher and one more impact bat.
Baily

by Baily on Dec 5, 2006 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Outstanding analysis
...as always lboros.  Kudos to you for running the best blog on the web.
"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Dec 5, 2006 2:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Carpenter extension
 I would like first to join the chorus in complimenting LB for his usual factual and reasoned analysis.  A pleasure to read.  My initial instincts to the deal were positive, and you have given those instincts emperical grounding.  The risk is there, but the potential benefit justifies it in my mind.

I would diverge to reflect on what this deal says about Carpenter.  I doubt that it would be possible with many current "star" level players.  His past demeanor re contracts, work levels, and general under the radar behavior suggest to me that Chris has values beyond money.  He has opted for stability, staying  where he is happy, and I suspect staying with Duncan and Tony, as issues worth more to him than positioning himself for even more money.  He apparently realizes that this contract will give him the same security and life style that one with even more millions, and his ego does not demand that he be paid more than anyone else.
His post contract comments in today's P-D are consistent with this view.

So I say three cheers for Walt, and six cheers for Chris.

by oldbirdwatcher on Dec 5, 2006 2:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Batista
I haven't really formed an opinion about Batista yet, but I do feel that any "league average pitcher" usually performs several notches above that in St. Louis under Duncan and company. If he's reliably league average, that's about what Suppan was when he arrived, right? Or maybe lower.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 5, 2006 4:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I really would have
liked to see Greg Maddux here, too.  He has long been one of my favorite PITCHERS--you know, someone who really knows something about PITCHING, as opposed to just throwing.  It would have been sweet to see him here.  

by jillsinmo on Dec 6, 2006 10:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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