allen wrenched . . . . . (alternate title: watson and jetsam)

by lboros on Dec 26, 2006 8:58 AM EST in News Comment 84 comments

welcome back; hope you all had a nice xmas. you've learned by now that suppan signed with milwaukee, and very likely you've read walter's words (with which i agree, in this instance) on the virtues of stand-pattism. mulder is expected to make a decision shortly; the cardinals are said to be one of two or three finalists. stay tuned.

i read with interest john sickels' preliminary list of the cardinal system's top 20 prospects, which appeared over the weekend (see DJ87's diary for the list and some reaction). `twas the 2d top-prospect list to appear in recent days, following kevin goldstein's list at baseball prospectus (see Brock 20's diary for the names.) the lists essentially agree; colby rasmus is The Man, jaime garcia is #2, adam ottavino and bryan anderson are the best of the rest. each rater had a surprise in the top 5 --- john jay (#3 on sickels' list) and daryl jones (#5 on goldstein's) --- but in general they're in agreement on the farm system hierarchy, as prospect handicappers are wont. when they're right, they're usually right as a herd --- ditto when they're wrong.

which leads me to today's question for discussion: which cardinal prospect of recent (or not-so-recent) memory were you most wrong about? which would-be future star let you down the worst? set aside rick ankiel, who is perhaps the biggest disappointment in franchise history; he's in a class by himself, so don't bring him up. even if we disqualify him, there's no shortage of candidates: geronimo pena, alan benes, todd zeile, dmitri young, and bud smith all leap immediately to my mind; go back a few more years and names like joe magrane, jim lindeman, and andy rincon enter the mix.

for me, the answer to this question is allen watson. the first year i played in a roto league, i had watson on the taxi squad; when the cards called him up in mid-1993, i fearlessly activated him. this was back in the dark ages before Moneyball and broadband modems and saturation sports coverage; the minor leagues were almost entirely unknown provinces, and something as simple as knowing baseball america's top 100 prospects could give you an advantage in a rotisserie league. watson was #9 on the 1993 list, listed alongside guys like chipper jones and manny ramirez and carlos delgado. he had raced through the minor-league system in two seasons and got to the big leagues at age 22 with a career minor-league era of 2.20 or so. i was convinced he was It.

in his major-league debut, watson tossed six innings of 1-run ball to beat the braves. he struggled for a couple of starts, then reeled off five strong outings in a row, yielding just 5 runs and 21 hits in 33+ innings. by late august he stood at 6-0 with a 2.86 era; my roto team was in 2d place, and i looked like a genius. and then, suddenly . . . . on august 24, watson took the hill at jack murphy stadium in san diego and got bombarded --- faced 10 men and gave up 4 walks, 3 doubles, and a homer. his final line: 8 runs in 2/3 of an inning. the cardinals lost 17-4; watson wouldn't win another game that year. my roto team fell to 5th place.

watson lasted two more years with st louis, with an era well over 5.00; his career era in 8 seasons was 5.03. no other flop stung me quite like that one (excepting ankiel, of course).

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Jim Lindeman...

There was a lot of hype about him I seem to recall. Then again, I was in grade school, so my memory might be a little fuzzy.

I was crazy about Todd Zeile when I was a kid, so I probably over projected him or built him up too much in my mind. He had a good career, but I thought, as kids are apt to do, that he was going to be the second coming of Stan Musial.

Same era. Dimitri Young anyone? Anyone want to admit to hording his cards in the late 80's early 90s?

I will admit that I was really wrong about Pujols. It seems ages ago but he was not supposed to break camp and came on like gang busters to make the team. Boy, I've never been so happy to be wrong about something.

by Brock20 on Dec 26, 2006 9:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Young

I remembering reading up on Young when he was a young prospect. Apparently, he carried around a book of hitting in his back pocket. I thought that was very cool.

Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Dec 26, 2006 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember...

my grandpa taking me to a Springfield (IL) Cardinals game around 1992 and him telling me how good Young was going to be. My grandpa raised me to bleed Cardinal Red and Young was the only prospect I can remember him taking me just to see him. To me, that classifies as the biggest disappointment.

"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Dec 26, 2006 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jim Lindeman

I vote to take Lindeman off of the list of candidates. He has hit at least 50 pinch-hit homeruns for me in RBI baseball. That power of the bench is priceless.

by Jonathan23 on Dec 26, 2006 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

great game

the '87 oakland a's, ohhh boy, i dominated with them. jose canseco and mcgwire plus dave stewart. one word: dynasty.

Albert Pujols is god with a lowercase "g". World Series Champs Baby!!

by stlsportsfan on Dec 26, 2006 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lindeman

I concur. After his magnificent spring training in 1987, I though for sure he'd be the 20 hr outfeilder that the Cards needed so badly.

As for surprises, easily its Albert Pujols. Even after his first year I expected a sophmore jinx. Even this past year I expected him to miss very significant time with an injury. He did get hurt and it was relatively serious, but he still played close to 140 games.

He called fate's bluff on a cool New York night, October 19th, 2006.

by Number47 on Dec 26, 2006 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Notes on Sup as well...

Good for him, as far as I'm concerned. That's quite a bit of difference between the two offers. He has the ring, so take the money. Too bad I'm moving from Wisconsin, because I could have seen him more often.

Thanks for all your work Soup.

by Brock20 on Dec 26, 2006 9:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Royce Clayton

Not that he was a huge flop, but he was replacing a HOF'r in the Wizard. Those were huge shoes to fill. Same with Tino Martinez. They were disappointments cause we were used to "greatness" and they came in and gave us "Blah."

Official member of the Willie McGee fan club.

by OKCardsfan on Dec 26, 2006 9:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Paul Colman

I remember being so excited about this guy. Didn't we pass over Frank Thomas in the draft to take him or something?

by birdsonthehat on Dec 26, 2006 9:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The immortal John Santor

I remember getting all indignant over the fact John Santor wasn't listed by Baseball America as one of the top prospects in the New York-Penn League a few seasons back.

He led the league in just about everything, and Baseball Prospectus (which I'd just started reading) gave him a minor-league EQA that made him look like a future superstar.

When it turned out that BA was right, and Santor only dominated the NY-P because it was his third season in short-season ball, I felt like an idiot, but learned an important lesson: You have to consider a lot more than some isolated stats when you evaluate a minor leaguer.

Personal issues aside, I think the biggest disappointment in all my years as a Cards fan is Paul Coleman. At the time, he was the earliest draft pick in the Cards' history. IIRC, we took him sixth that year. The White Sox picked seventh ... and took Frank Thomas.

The other really frustrating draft pick was Shaun Boyd, the 13th overall pick in the 2000 draft. He looked great for one season in the Midwest League (his second season in the league -- shades of Santor), but other than that was a pure bust.

The opportunity cost wasn't as bad as it was when we took Coleman, but it's worth noting that the Phils got Chase Utley two picks later.

by Lou Schuler on Dec 26, 2006 9:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jimmy Journel...

Wasn't he supposed to be the best pitcher our farm system had seen in a long time?

by jpsell45 on Dec 26, 2006 10:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yes....

Journall is a good one.

I take the whole hindsight thing with a grain of salt. Except for situations where a team takes a guy who is obviously not slotted right, then we can bad mouth the pick and all the guys who came after.

Its like the girl or guy who all of us passed up in school. Then you see her or him, (I'm being correct for the couple of female cards fan on this site) usually around the holidays somewhere and turns out they are gorgoues and on top of that went to medical school and volunteers time to help kids with Aids in Mali or something.

Then again, the women probably saw the potential and married the guy. Women are a lot better at the draft and follow than boys.

by Brock20 on Dec 26, 2006 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

JJ

Yes, he was supposed to be almost as good as Chad Huthinson...I guess you know who gets my vote.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Dec 26, 2006 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Have you seen this yet????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5zEHF_ajIw

Angry German Cub Fan

by El Birdo Rojo on Dec 26, 2006 10:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

omgosh

That is hilarious!

by redbird2006in on Dec 26, 2006 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rene Arocha

After seeing him pitch a few times early in 1993, I thought the Cards had an ace in the making. The whole Cuban exile factor only added to the intrigue. The game in Atlanta when they had the fire at Fulton County Stadium sticks in my mind (July 20, 1993). The Cards jumped out to an early lead and coughed it up. Arocha never was the same after that, if I recall.

I also remember Buck and Shannon talking about how nasty it was to call that game as the smoke lingered in the press box from the fire.

by raisin on Dec 26, 2006 10:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'd take Alan Benes

He was supposed to be at the top of our rotation for a long time along w/ Matt Morris. And his career started very well. Seems like he had a pretty good rookie year and then a very good 2nd year and then injuries and ineffectiveness crept in and he never was the same. He's had about 3 invites to spring training w/ the Cards recently but he's just not what he could have been. It's unfortunate b/c he was supposed to be better than Andy who was a pretty fair pitcher for some time.

by chuckb on Dec 26, 2006 10:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

After Ankiel, Alan Benes is the biggest disapointment in recent Cardinals history. Like Ankiel, Benes was a significant factor his rookie season - helping the Cardinals get back into the postseason.

Like Ankiel, it was his only full season in the bigs.

by musial6 on Dec 26, 2006 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Alan Benes & Alicea

I concur w/the post below regarding Alicea. First round pick, yada yada yada.

I don't think it's fair to include Alan Benes in this discussion, however, because he was a stud in the making before he was hurt. It's not like they missed on the draft, or he got in a bar fight and hurt his shoulder. Injuries happen. Oh what might have been.

by Pokey Joe on Dec 26, 2006 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

luis alicea

If I remember correctly he hit over .300 in the minors, but just couldn't get it going in the majors. Maybe not the most disapointing, but I expected a lot more from him.

by nybirdfan on Dec 26, 2006 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

That's mine, too

Big time player at Florida State, if I recall correctly. He was supposed to be the alluring big bat/good glove package at second base.

by wildman on Dec 27, 2006 7:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jiminez

For me it's Jose Jimenez, maybe its the no-hitter he threw that gave me hopes. First no-hitter that I ever watched so it stands out.

When I was a kid I remember really hoping Joe Magrane would do really well.

by AirForceCardsFan on Dec 26, 2006 11:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jiminez and Bud Smith

each threw a no-hitter as a rookie and only to be traded less than a year later.

The fact that we got nice returns (including Kile and Rolen) for them disqualifies them from being disapointments (for Cardinals fans anyway).

by musial6 on Dec 26, 2006 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Heity Cruz

Hector was The Sporting News minor league player of the year in 1975.

by lerwin1 on Dec 26, 2006 11:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

with all the advancements in

stats and whatnot, it's nice to know that it's becoming less and less of a coin flip, and you know the Cards and Luhnow are into that. i'd like to see them take more high school talent, guys with higher ceilings, but at least it's not just an scouting only emphasis.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 26, 2006 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Fernando Tatis

He hit 30 HRs as a rookie, played a decent third base, and single handedly changed Chan Ho Park's career path. Thankfully, we got 2 pretty good arms in exchange for him. Oh yeah, and that guy who came up to replace him turned out okay.

by sjoshi on Dec 26, 2006 11:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

From a purely Cardinals perspective, J.D. Drew

He undoubtedly had more talent than anyone not named Pujols. He's had a fine major league career, but in any September 1998 NOT starring Mark McGwire he would have been the toast of the town...so much promise. But from there it was a bunch of disappointing seasons, injuries and grimaces. At least we got Wainer for him.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Dec 26, 2006 11:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Von McDaniel is my nominee

Von was 7-3 with an ERA of 2.63 late in the season in 1957 as an EIGHTEEN year old pitching in the majors.

Something happened to his arm and he never won another game.

By the way, I was at the infamous Allen Watson game in San Diego. The Padres scored thirteen runs in the bottom of the first inning and Zeile led off the top of the second by being thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double. That's the earliest I ever left a game.

by DizzyDean17 on Dec 26, 2006 12:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Interesting List

It was interesting go back and looking at some of the past drafts. What was really interesting is looking at some of the players the Cardinals drafted and didn't get signed!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/draft.shtml

by jpenn44 on Dec 26, 2006 12:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

ugh

1974 they drafted Paul Molitor..he didn't sign. oh, what could've been

Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 26, 2006 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

great list

Man that is a great list. Dunc was our number 1 picked ahead of Albert. I did not know that. I learn more and more everytime I am here, mostly useless facts to annoy my wife with!

by arthropodtodd on Dec 26, 2006 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Paul Molitor, Mark Davis, Oddibe Mcdowell, Bucky Dent- Twice! Very fascinating, I wonder if these guys would've gotten along?
Superb list.

A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Dec 26, 2006 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Donovan Osborne

First round draft pick -- looked promising early, though injury-prone; had a nice 1996 season that earned him a sizable raise (I'll never forget the grand slam he hit against Houston that year); his train went off the rails after he allowed six runs in game 7 of the NLCS and was never a good (or healthy) pitcher again. The Cards ended up paying him $5 million to start six games in 1999.

by walkingunderwear on Dec 26, 2006 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

so many

there are so many that it is tough to get the list down very far, but i kind of think of the disappointments in two ways:

way number one is a guy like jd drew, who showed great promise, even at the major league level, but was thwarted mainly by injury and not lack of talent, here are the guys in this list of disappointments:
drew
alan benes
lindeman
osborne
magrane

then you have the second type who was just hyped and never made the majors, or did little when he got there
paul coleman
journell
bud smith (what did he do besides the no-hitter)
watson
gall

the paul coleman thing pissed me off when they got him, and still does because big frank was in the majors in less than two months after that draft, and how the cards let him pass is beyond me, at the time it was a bit of a headscratcher, but with hindsight you want to beat someone, i really wonder if at the time it was the brewery afraid to spend the money to sign him because he was so majorleague ready

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Dec 26, 2006 1:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Minor League Disappointments

I watched the Redbirds come through Louisville in the 1980's and 90's and saw a farm system go through a sad decline and bottom out the early 90's.
The Redbirds had produced Willie McGee, Vince Coleman, Todd Worrell and others. And one year a great Louisville team drew a million fans, more than some major league teams.
But then, the quality of baseball declined and the Redbirds were plagued by bad choices and bad conditioning.
Two catchers that passed through Louisville, Todd Zeile and Eli Marrero, gave Cardinal fans hope. They appeared to be building block catchers, who could hit and run. And although Zeile had a long career, his intensity matched J.D. Drew and Marrero was plagued by physical problems.
But one factor lead to the decline of the Redbirds and Cardinal farm system. The Louisville team was always in horrible physical shape. Teams, like Buffalo, that already traveled with a strength and conditioning coach would come to Louisville with bigger, stronger athletes and just clobber the Birds.
I once participated in a 5K race that ended at the stadium and after the race was talking to one of the Redbirds. He asked how far we had run, and I told him 3.1 miles. He smiled and said, I don't think anybody on this team can run to the centerfield fence.
In the latter days of the Busch stewardship, the Redbirds were a collection of pitchers with bad arms and position players with heavy legs. Baseball had passed the Cardinals in terms of player development and physical fitness.
Now, they seem to be making something of a comeback. But it will take a long time to overcome that slow decline, that we saw in the 90's.
Of course, the Louisville ownership was not sad to see the Cardinals farmclub move to Memphis, where the results have not been much better.
We continue to excel at the major league level because of Walt Jocketty's genius at acquiring players, but sadly Triple A remains a scrap heap.
All those disappointing players were the product of a farm system gone bad.

by Louisville Slugger on Dec 26, 2006 2:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Willie McGee

Willie only played 13 games for the Louisville Redbirds before being called up in 1982.

He was a Yankee farmhand stolen in a deal for Bob Sykes prior to the 1982 season. Sykes was totally worthless after that and the Yankees cried "foul".

Unfortunately, the Cardinals did a make-up deal with the Yankees at the end of the '82 season, handing them Stan Javier and Bobby Meacham for the equivalent of a bag of balls.

by DizzyDean17 on Dec 26, 2006 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ah the good old days

When the American Assosiation merged with the International League. The Louisville Cards would come play aganst the Syracuse Chiefs. I would not miss a game. I remember David Green when he was on his second go around with the Cards. He certainly was a dissapointment. Now besides the one tme a year we travel to a major league city all I get to see is NY-Penn League Cardinal players.

by nybirdfan on Dec 27, 2006 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis

They won the PCL the first year in the new Autozone park like 6 or 7 years ago. But not much since. It was Pujols' last year in the minors. It was the 3rd or 4th season of being in Memphis. They played at Tim McCarver before Autozone.

I would have to go with Bud Smith. Come on. With AB owning the team, a guy named "Bud" could have been real promising. I loved watching him pitch when he was in Memphis. But the no-hitter was his one and only high point in the Bigs. He never stayed consistent.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Dec 26, 2006 3:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think he's still available

I read somewhere that he is playing somewhere in an independent league. he's had a few surgeries and is finally healthy although I think they said his fastball only tops out at like 85, not sure if that could improve with more time since the last surgery wasn't that long ago.

by Carps on Dec 26, 2006 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

are

we really talking about Allen freakin Watson?

by onephinepeace on Dec 26, 2006 3:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

thank

god we arent

by onephinepeace on Dec 26, 2006 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Cris Carpenter

Sure fire, first round draft pick in 1987. Called up to the majors in 1988 just to be a mediocre below average pitcher until he faded away in 1996.

by MarTeezy on Dec 26, 2006 4:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I thought this was interesting from Will Carroll

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=118

There are also several trades in the works, including the long-rumored Randy Johnson to Arizona deal and one three-team deal that has three BIG names. I'm going to tease you with the last one because it's close enough that reporting it just might jinx it.

by Carps on Dec 26, 2006 4:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Follow up post on BP

Will has a follow up post that indicates the Braves are one of the teams and that names like Andruw Jones, Tim Hudson, Mark Texeira and Dontrelle Willis are involved...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=120

It also indicates things aren't as close as previously believed.

by punditmoi on Dec 26, 2006 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

he clarified

just now, that the trade all centers on an Atlanta (mini?) firesale.

That was the first team that came to my mind but AJones has 10-5 rights and seems determined to test the FA market - thank you Boras - and Hudson seems like a shade of the pitcher he was in Oakland - thank you Bill Beane - so I'm not sure who else they would move. Chipper still is the face of the franchise and he recently restructured his contract to help the payroll, can't see him going anywhere. Smoltz would seem like a prime candidate to move but again he's a very prominent figure (10-5 rights again). If he gets shipped out that seems like they are just going to throw away next season.

If I was Schuerholz, I'd look to move AJones and Smoltz. Smoltz could land a few top young prospects (think budding superstar Markakis, Penn/Cabrera/Loewen and some younger prospects from Baltimore for example). What I still find amazing is the chase for bullpen arms in ATL. They keep pursuing mediocre arms hoping that someone will put it together (Soriano was a nice pickup, however, even with the health concerns). Relievers are, imho, the most fungible commodity in the game (outside of your Mariano's and Joe Nathan's) but ATL seems unable to find them or raise anyone out of the minors (Joey Devine what happened to you?).

===========

I have a secret confession. I wish Bo Hart had been able to stick. I know he wasn't ever that good but watching those games with my family - who aren't stat-trolls like I am - made it hard not to like Hart. Not that he was ever a superstar in the making but still...

by azruavatar on Dec 26, 2006 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

john gall too

I really thought he could stick as an above-average OBP player in the majors a la Youkilis. Maybe he still will eventually but I doubt it.

by azruavatar on Dec 26, 2006 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

bud smith, definitely

I thought he couldn't miss. The no-hitter, the total stone-facedness on the mound, the great results despite average stuff; he just looked like a future star pitcher. Even after the Cardinals traded him I was convinced for a month or so that they would regret it.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 26, 2006 4:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Broken wings

I'd put the injured guys in a separate category--I don't consider them disappointments--but the Cardinals have had some very promising careers end abruptly. On the list would be Johnny Beazley, who as a 24-year old rookie in 1942 went 21-6 with a 2.13 ERA and then tossed 2 CG victories to beat the Yankees in the Series; Silvio Martinez, who pitched briefly at AAA after being acquired from the White Sox and then threw 2 1-hitters and 2 2-hitters in 4 months in '78 and then went 15-8 in '79; John Fulgham, the 23-year old native St. Louisan who pitched 10 complete games in 19 starts in compiling a 10-6 record and a 2.53 ERA in '79; and the colorful Scipio Spinks, acquired in the Jerry Reuss deal, who compiled a 2.67 ERA while throwing 6 complete games in 1972 before an injury ended his season on the 4th of July.

Beazley hurt his arm pitching in the Army after the '42 season. Martinez developed elbow problems, apparently in '80, and Fulgham hurt his shoulder that same year. Spinks wrecked his knee sliding into Johnny Bench.

Dizzy Dean, Paul Dean, Von McDaniel, Joe McGrane, Alan Benes. . . .

by unclegrubworm on Dec 26, 2006 4:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Oops

Don't think we had a Joe McGrane. Meant Joe Magrane.

by unclegrubworm on Dec 26, 2006 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jiminez and Smith may

have been busts but they got the birds KIle and Rolen...for that I say thanks

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 26, 2006 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

and you guys are forgetting

wasnt it manny aybar? who ended up haveing a short journeyman career

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Dec 26, 2006 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

McGwire

Didn't the Mark McGwire deal almost not happen because the Cardinals absolutely refused to include Manny Aybar in any package? I just remember his crazy delivery...he'd almost completely fall off the mound after he threw the pitch.

by svengali on Dec 26, 2006 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

60s farm system vs today

When you compare the players that came out of the Cardinals' farm system in the late 1960s and 1970s--Carlton, Briles, Sadecki, Washburn, Reuss, Mike Perez, Jose Cruz, Melendez, and then later Ken Reitz, Keith Hernandez, Tommy Herr, Terry Pendleton, Garry Templeton...

What we have had coming out since 1990 is not very impressive. Except for Pujols, what really top notch player has come out of the St. Louis system? And the fact that so many of our people misjudged Albert's potential may be even more of an indictment of those who are doing the judging.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 26, 2006 5:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Didn't we have a much larger farm system then?

I thought we had more than one AAA team and more lower level teams. That would mean a lot more prospects and a lot more good prospects.

by Carps on Dec 26, 2006 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's true

but isn't it also true of all teams? At one period in the late 1960s, it seemed that the Cardinals were developing nearly all the top pitchers in baseball...and giving them up to other teams in trades.

Later, they did the same with position players.

Way back to Branch Rickey, the St. Louis farm system was always one of the best in baseball. I don't think it even comes close today.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 26, 2006 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oui

In the '40s, the Cardinals either owned or had agreements with about 40 minor league teams. I believe at least two of them were AAA teams--the Rochester Redwings of the International League and the Columbus Redbirds of the American Association.

by unclegrubworm on Dec 26, 2006 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In the early 1950s

the Cardinal farm system produced Wally Moon, Rip Repulski and Bill Virdon in a matter of a few years. Weren't Moon and Virdon rookies of the year in consecutive years? Both traded away because we were desperate for pitchers.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 27, 2006 8:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Questionable trades

They were back-to-back ROY centerfielders in '54 and '55. Moon nosed out Hank Aaron in '54 for the award. Both were intelligent guys and very popular with the fans, although Moon was more outgoing, as I recall. They both had good careers after their trades. Both won Gold Gloves.

Moon was traded for Gino Cimoli after the '58 season, when Moon slumped after putting up 4 consecutive seasons of right around .300 with pretty good pop. Cimoli had one decent year for us and then was gone for Ron Kline in another disappointing trade.

The Virdon trade was awful. Virdon was a very good CF and a capable hitter, although he didn't have much power. We got Dick Littlefield and Bobby Del Greco for him early in '56, right after his ROY season in '55. Littlefield started 2 games for us and didn't win either. Del Greco hit .215. Neither were back in '57.

by unclegrubworm on Dec 27, 2006 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yes, Bobby Del Greco

He has to rank among the all-time biggest flops. Along with Sexto Lezcano. And Gino Cimoli.

What the Cardinals could have done with Musial, Virdon and Moon in the outfield. Or Musial at first with Repulski in LF, as it more likely would have been.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 27, 2006 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

apples and oranges...

... you can't really compare the two. draft picks cost so much more now, there are fewer teams. fewer players as well, with the increased popularity of basketball, football, and soccer.

but even still, the Cards have done alright in the past decade. Pujols, Drew, Morris, Kennedy, Looper, Molina, Haren, Marrero, etc. and there are some intriguing guys with the jury still out like Duncan and Reyes.

wasn't Coco Crisp originally drafted by the Cards?

who else?

by kindred on Dec 27, 2006 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

It's much harder today to beat other teams to top players, considering how the draft is conducted. And I overlooked some important names produced by our system over the past decade--Molina, Morris, Coco Crisp, Drew. I tend to forget about Drew since he was a Philadelphia pick initially. Pujols, of course, slipped under everybody's radar.

Kennedy, Jack Smith, Looper were young players we didn't consider untouchable, and I think we were better off as a result, particularly since we ended up with two of them as "good value" veteran pickups.

Maybe it's true for all teams, but, as the topic of this thread suggests, we seem to have a frustrating number of high draft picks--like Journell and Chad Hutchinson--who fizzle out.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 27, 2006 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can add

Ted Simmons and Mike Torrez to that list. Plus Al Hrabosky and, later, Leon Durham, too.

by Youneverknow on Dec 27, 2006 1:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Misjudged Albert?

"And the fact that so many of our people misjudged Albert's potential may be even more of an indictment of those who are doing the judging."

He didn't exactly languish in our farm system. What exactly do you mean by that statement?

by DizzyDean17 on Dec 27, 2006 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I meant simply

that he was not a No. 1 draft pick. He was MVP in every league he played in his minor league season.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 27, 2006 8:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Albert

There were a lot of other teams who didn't pick Albert either, so no matter if it was just lucky and we took him as sort of a throw away pick or maybe the Cardinals knew nobody was going to pick him earlier than we did (why would you pick a guy in the first round that you can get in later rounds?)

Cards in 5

by cardfan2 on Dec 27, 2006 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Everybody missed Albert

And it's strange because I bet most fans--those of who know very little about how to judge potential talent--would have picked him immediately. I know I jumped on Albert's band wagon from day one because he did everything fans want a player to do. Other people who know more than I do about baseball were warning me he'd never last--didn't have the "tools." But he swung the bat and he won ball games. And he's still doing it.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 27, 2006 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bud Smith's team

The Long Beach Armada are an independent Golden Baseball League team based in Long Beach, California.

The current roster includes three left handed pitchers who reached the major leagues: Adam Pettyjohn, Alan Newman, and Bud Smith. In July 2006, former major league star José Canseco was traded to the team and plays as a designated hitter and pitcher.

by Carps on Dec 26, 2006 5:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Did LaRussa and Duncan ever really like Bud Smith?

I always got the impression that they considered him temporarily welcome (as they did Kent Bottenfield, Jimenez, Aybar and Cliff Politte) and never really thought he was a long-term answer. If so, they were right, and Walt traded them all when their perceived value was high.

LaRussa also seemed not so reluctant to give up Adam Kennedy when the right veteran player (Edmonds) was available in exchange. He had his eyes on Vina, who performed well for us during that period.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 26, 2006 6:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Garry Templeton

Garry Templeton's demise with the Cardinals may be even more dramatic than Ankiel's.

Templeton's offensive stats, below, are every bit as impressive as Ankiels pitching stats, even more impressive when we consider that he performed at a very high level, especially for a shortstop, for five and one half years.

Templeton also had great range and a powerful arm at shortstop. In those first six years with the Cardinals, he looked like he would break most career hitting records for the Cardinals at shortstop. His season in 1979 is probably the best single offensive season ever by a Cardinal shortstop.

But his eventual disrespectful gestures and demeanor toward fans, coaches, teammates, and management provoked a shocking ending to what had been a spectacular beginning to his career.

Trading him for Ozzie made it all okay in the end, though. Too bad the Cardinals didn't trade Ankiel when his stock was so high, but, then, everyone would have thought they were crazy to trade him considering his potential before he fell apart.

Templeton's stats in his first full season, 1977:
HITS 200
AVG .322
OBP . 336
SLG .449
OPS .785
SB 28
CS 24
HR 8

Templeton's stats in 1979:
HITS 211 (100 or more from both sides, right and left)
AVG .322
OBP . 336
SLG .449
OPS .785
SB 28
CS 24
HR 8

by CardsWin on Dec 26, 2006 6:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ozzie added excellent offense AND supreme defense

Footnote: One could certainly make the case that Ozzie Smith's 1987 season was every bit as good offensively as Garry Templeton's offensive season in 1979. (Garry, unfortunately, manifested more than one meaning to being "offensive".)

Ozzie Smith's 1987 season offensively:
Hits 182
AVG .303
OBP .392
SLG .383
OPS .775
SB 43
CS 9
HR 0

by CardsWin on Dec 26, 2006 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The stat...

from 1979 that should have indicated how their careers would play out was the walks. Templeton had 14 non-intentional walks in 696 plate appearances - it must be close to a record - while Smith had 37. True 37 ain't much, but he didn't strike out much either... in 1980 the walks jumped to 71 and he was good to go as a mildly positive offensive force.
The amazing thing is that when all was said and done both players ended with identical career OPS+.

Acquire Randy Johnson!

by guayzimi on Dec 26, 2006 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Templeton might have benefitted from a mentor.

Templeton's pitiful failure to draw walks is a major flaw in his offensive numbers. Despite that, he was a fantastic hitter for a shortstop. How many players at ANY position have ever had 100 hits batting left and 100 batting right in the same season? Too bad he didn't have a coach or manager or veteran player on the team with whom he would have been responsive to mentoring in the art of sportsmanship and being a good team player, and drawing those walks....

by CardsWin on Dec 27, 2006 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oops! Here are Templeton's 1979 CORRECT stats.

Templeton's stats in 1979:
HITS 211 (100 or more from both sides, right and left)
AVG .314
OBP . 331
SLG .458
OPS .789
SB 26
CS 10
HR 9

by CardsWin on Dec 26, 2006 7:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Even to the end of his career

Templeton had remarkable skills in the field and at bat. He needed someone to turn his personality into something positive rather than negative.

by Fred McTaggart on Dec 26, 2006 11:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

You can't

forget one "Macho Man" Randy Savage...

by cardsrul on Dec 26, 2006 11:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Does anyone have an image

of what the NL MVP award has looked like?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 27, 2006 2:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jason Simontacchi

The ole Italian Stallion. He started out 2002 on fire, going 11-5, then started 2003 by posting an ERA over 8 in the first month of the season. By midseason, he had been moved to the bullpen. He spent 2004 in the Cardinals bullpen, pitching only 15 innings and giving up 9 earned runs. I heard he's in the Cubs system somewhere after having arm surgery, but it's doubtful if he ever gets back to the bigs. I still remember when Darryl Kile died on his day to pitch in Chicago, though. That was rough as hell, I'm sure.

by Phyrkrakr on Dec 27, 2006 2:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

My vote

Is it too early to vote for Chris Duncan? I think his name will top this list by the end of 2008. I hope I am wrong. Great start...pitchers figure out how to pitch to him and his defense makes it impossible to keep sending him to the outfield. Eventually traded somewhere to be a 1b or DH.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Dec 27, 2006 9:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs