right as rain
a quick promotional note: i accepted an invitation to write the foreword for a photo volume commemorating the 2006 cardinals: "Diehard Cards." the book is already at the printer and should be shipping within a matter of days -- 128 pages, full color, retails for $14.95. take this link to get to the ordering page.
there are championships that come on like a stampeding herd; you hear the hooves thundering in the distance, you know exactly what's coming, but when it arrives you're in awe nonetheless. then there are championships that surprise you like rattlesnakes -- rise up out of the weeds with little or no warning and strike before you have any chance to prepare yourself.
finally, there are championships like the one we've just witnessed, which i can only liken to a hailstorm of frogs -- you know, like the one in the climactic scene of magnolia. these are not merely sudden and unexpected; they're inconceivable. and although you learn, after the fact, that in very rare circumstances it really can rain frogs, the scientific explanation for the phenomenon isn't very compelling. the mind can't absorb it. one just walks around in a happy head-shaking daze, unable to get past the fact that it was f*king raining frogs!
so this is how the cardinals' championship drought ends. we watched all those mighty la russa teams billow up like anvil clouds and rattle with thunder and lightning, only to blow over and leave us with dry harvests. then along comes this homely little wisp of vapor, this .500 club, and brings forth a freak monsoon. as long as i live, i'll never figure it out.
but i know it's got something to do with pitching.
that, and what i asserted half-jokingly in my playoff preview at deadspin four weeks ago: being the favorite sucks. it sucked this year for the twins, the padres, the yankees, and ultimately for the tigers, just as it sucked for the cardinals in 04 and 05. when a team gets declared the winner before a pitch is thrown, it only adds pressure to an already pressure-packed situation; lose, and it will be said that the club was never as good as people thought. so it tends to put the team's whole reputation on the line -- hence jim leyland's pointed declaration, after game 5, to the media: "i hope you guys won't just heap dirt on us now that we've lost; i hope you'll at least say a eulogy and acknowledge that we had a pretty damn good season." the only club that handled overdog status well this month was the mets. they didn't just crumble when confronted with a difficult foe and the prospect of defeat; they battled their asses off down to the last pitch, damn near attained the fate prophesied for them. perhaps that's because the mets knew better than to believe their press clippings -- not with their rotation in such a shambles. looking back, that was the only good series of the entire postseason.
so, to return to the pitching: as i noted friday night, the cardinal mound corps outdid itself in october, shaving nearly 2 full runs off its regular-season era. how often does that happen? before we answer that, let's ask first: how often does any championship team post an era as low as 2.62 over an entire postseason? i only looked back as far as 1995, ie the era of the three-series postseason; prior to that a championship might be won in fewer than 10 postseason games, which doesn't seem comparable to the relatively marathon-length course today's champions run. here's how the cardinals stack up:
| team | era | oct w-l |
|---|---|---|
| 98 yanks | 2.38 | 11-2 |
| 99 yanks | 2.39 | 11-1 |
| 01 dbacks | 2.39 | 11-6 |
| 05 chisox | 2.55 | 11-1 |
| 06 cards | 2.62 | 11-5 |
| 95 braves | 2.69 | 11-3 |
| 00 yanks | 3.44 | 11-5 |
| 96 yanks | 3.70 | 11-4 |
| 97 marlins | 4.25 | 11-5 |
| 03 marlins | 4.30 | 11-6 |
| 04 boxos | 4.47 | 11-3 |
| 02 angels | 4.82 | 11-5 |
the cardinals did post an outstanding figure, right up there with the very best, but it was hardly an unprecedented performance. now let's expand the table and rank the teams by the differential between regular-season era and postseason era:
| team | reg season era (lg rk) |
oct era | diff |
|---|---|---|---|
| 06 cards | 4.54 (9) | 2.62 | -1.92 |
| 99 yanks | 4.13 (2) | 2.39 | -1.74 |
| 98 yanks | 3.82 (1) | 2.38 | -1.50 |
| 01 dbacks | 3.87 (2) | 2.39 | -1.48 |
| 00 yanks | 4.76 (5) | 3.44 | -1.32 |
| 05 chisox | 3.61 (1) | 2.55 | -1.06 |
| 96 yanks | 4.65 (5) | 3.70 | -0.95 |
| 95 braves | 3.44 (1) | 2.69 | -0.75 |
| 03 marlins | 4.04 (7) | 4.30 | +0.26 |
| 04 boxos | 4.18 (3) | 4.47 | +0.29 |
| 97 marlins | 3.83 (4) | 4.25 | +0.42 |
| 02 angels | 3.69 (2) | 4.82 | +1.13 |
note, first of all, that the cardinals are the only team on this list to rank as low as 9th in the league in era; the last champion to match that profile was the 1992 toronto blue jays. we should also observe that the cardinals' team era is extremely misleading, insofar as it largely reflects the failure of three starting pitchers --- marquis, mulder, and ponson --- who weren't on the postseason roster. those three pitchers logged nearly 1/4 of the cardinals' regular-season innings and posted a cumulative era of 6.18; the rest of the pitching staff put up a regular-season era of 4.00. another way to look at this would be to calculate the cardinal staff's era per weighted postseason innings. for example, chris carpenter pitched 23 percent of the cardinals' overall postseason innings, so we'll assign a weight of 23 to his regular-season era; if do the same thing down the line and divide by 100, here's what we get:
| pitcher | era | weight | factor |
|---|---|---|---|
| carp | 3.09 | 23 | 71.1 |
| weaver | 5.18 | 21 | 108.9 |
| supps | 4.12 | 18 | 74.2 |
| reyes | 5.06 | 8.5 | 43.0 |
| wainwright | 3.12 | 7 | 21.8 |
| looper | 3.56 | 6 | 21.4 |
| johnson | 4.95 | 5 | 24.8 |
| kinney | 3.24 | 4.5 | 14.6 |
| flores | 5.62 | 4 | 22.5 |
| hancock | 4.09 | 1.5 | 6.1 |
| thompson | 3.34 | 1.5 | 5.0 |
| TOTAL | 100 | 413.4 |
in other words, if each of these pitchers had carried a regular-season workload identical to his october workload, the cardinals would have posted a 4.13 team era. they pitched better than that, obviously -- much better than we had any right to expect. two individuals in particular exceeded expectations to an historic degree this october; i'll write about those guys tomorrow.
other reading:
- brian gunn wrote a fantastic piece at The Hardball Times --- required reading.
- baseball analysts' rich lederer congratulates the cards and takes the first in-depth look at the 2007 cardinals
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Comments
Wake up to VEB
Pitching wins in baseball, especially in the postseason (along with defense - see Tigers, Detroit). Love the analysis and how you make the number show what we presume as we watch.
This postseason performance would be a fun one to discuss in depth with Dave Duncan. He and his boys came up huge.
Wall Street Journal online - Redbirds
lboros,
excellent writing and analysis - thanks! - here's another for you
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116135608727898974.html?mod=sports_primary_hs
Power Hitting
If I'm not mistaken, during the 3 games in St. Louis, the Cardinals failed to hit a ball that hit or cleared an outfield wall.
by JayS on Oct 30, 2006 8:12 AM EST reply actions
karma, baby
i think the pitchers' throwing woes were karmic retribution for rogers' cheating. even in game 1 it could have been for the other two series.
but be that as it may, the cardinals just took advantage of everything and played with joy and verve. it was a beautiful sight to see.
i wore my red VEB shirt to the gym this morning and got lots of comments and smiles.
thanks for the memories!
Breaking news
On a hunch this morning, I searched around to see if Oquendo is getting any job opportunities next season and found he is interviewing with the Padres on Tuesday:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20061030-9999-1s30padres.html
While I would hate to lose the Secret Weapon, I have to wish Oquendo Godspeed. The Padres organization is a good organization, and I think he'd be stellar.
It'd certainly be bizarre
But it'd also be impossible to not wish him well.
Also
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/29/AR2006102900973.html
Taguchi
by Minerball30 on Oct 30, 2006 9:58 AM EST reply actions
No.
Tadahito Iguchi won with the White Sox last year.
There might be others, but I remember those two off of the top of my head.
You are correct
I thought Taguchi won a Japanese league title, but he didn't; Iguchi is the only Japanese league player to win both his league and the World Series.
by TantoVanLanstrum on Oct 30, 2006 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Believe there was one
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2006 10:02 AM EST reply actions
Beat me to it
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2006 10:03 AM EST reply actions
Encarnacion
La Russa theorized Encarnacion was missing "probably because he didn't play much" in the Series' final four games.
Potentially sounds like sour grapes from Juan, and Tony definitely doesn't have his back (how easy would it have been to say "don't know" or "he had a family issue" or something like that?). I would love to see the Cardinals move that mistake, but I'm not sure how they can do it with that contract (2 more at $5MM per, correct?), and it's not like the Cardinals have a surplus of outfielders at this point.
Juan..
I thought it nice that
marquis
Same here..
Jared Weaver looked nice in all Cardinals stuff on Friday too..
Marquis
Was it against the Mets that he had the lead that gave him a win in August, when Weaver got a ND because Izzy gave up a HR?
Bases on Balls
Becasue there really was no difference in hits between the two teams, it was the walk differential, along with the errors, that gave the Cardinals their advantage in base runners.
The Cardinals should get credit for the walk differential. That's not a fluke.
Cards coaxed 23 or 24 walks
I think.
Man, I can't remember crap.
And
I singled out the 18 to 5 advantage in the three games in St. Louis because it made a difference in the number of runs that followed. The 5 to 2 Cardinal walk advantage in the two games in Detroit didn't yield any differences in runs scored.
The overall walk advantage was 23 to 7.
And the article
Well, the Sox one
The MLB idiots just put a hold on my sweatshirt order.
the web page clearly said in stock
Wait 'til next year
I checked a few of the rival blogs this morning... and found some pretty harsh language about our team and its victory.
I know LB would never use this blog as a forum for gratuitous bashing... so there's one more reason to be arrogant today.
by Matt @ Viva El Birdos on Oct 30, 2006 11:31 AM EST reply actions
i saw
I saw the Red Reporter one and glanced at the Cubs one.
Out of curiosity...
After seeing the parade and the ceremony inside the stadium yesterday I just have to say that this truly is "Baseball Heaven". I will admit that I, like a lot of others, gave the Cardinals little chance at the beginning of the post season. I watched each game for the enjoyment of watching my favorite team in the playoffs. This team played an amazing 16 games in the playoffs and despite what the national media say...they DESERVE this championship. Here's to defending the title in 07!
I'm supposed to care about...
Look, I've been in the sports reporting biz for 30+ years... During a conversation a couple of weeks ago with the Arkansas State football beat writer for the Jonesboro Sun, I pointed out, "Who are these national writers, anyway? They're just guys like you and me, but with larger platforms and audiences. If I read something about A-State from Joe National, and something about A-State from you, who am I gonna believe? You, for course... 'cause you see these guys every day."
Look, Peter Gammons is an excellent baseball writer... but no way can he know more about the Cardinals than Rick Hummel. I don't watch the "talking heads" at ESPN anymore... they've been wrong too often for me to accept their analyses as anything but whatever BS pops into their heads at that moment.
So some guys (getting paid to watch the ballgames and writing about it) were unimpressed with the 2006 WS? Fine... I'm unimpressed with them!
Me, I just repeat my new Zen mantra...
"Worrrrllllddddd Champions! Worrrrllllddddd Champions! Worrrrllllddddd Champions!"
by The Ol Goaler on Oct 30, 2006 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
My question is,
It lists his email address. We should bombard him with messages from the Cardinals/VEB nation.
feel free to write him
Sorry Larry
In particlar I believe there is a quote in the article about how everytime the Tigers made an eror, the Cardinals scored twice. (He is close, the actual ratio is 8/5 or 1.6 runs/ error.) Well I believe those 23 walks had something to do with that stat. That is the Cardinals capitalized on the errors because they had a lot more men on base.
no worries Z
Perhaps it's because
Who cares what others (bloggers, media, co-workers, etc.) say about the Cardinals? The Cards won! They are the world series champions.
Regardless of media or public opinion or Nielsen ratings, the banner will go up next year.
And it won't say anything more than St. Louis Cardinals 2006 World Series champions.
And that is the ONLY thing that matters.
by BozCardsFanSF on Oct 30, 2006 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm getting tired
It's no question that it's a weakness that the Cards were able to exploit but that is to the Cards' credit. If the Yanks or A's had been able to exploit it, maybe they'd be wearing rings!
What are our biggest offseason needs?
Our greatest needs, imo, are an adequate second baseman, if Belliard becomes unaffordable, as expected, along with more solid defensive and offensive production from atleast one of the two corner outfield positions.
Pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching
Nate Silver - BaseballProspectus.com
Good reading on Cards Hot Stove.
I miss baseball already.
thoughts...
i don't think Soriano or Lee will stay in the NL. if they do, they won't come to the Cardinals. either one will probably command salaries greater than Pujols', and that's not happening.
i don't hate the Ray Durham idea... but i don't love it either. i never like over-paying for guys who over-perform in their contract years. then again, the market is pretty rich with fair-to-good 2B - Soriano, Loretta, Belliard, Kennedy - and not a whole lot of teams need 2B, so Durham might stay cheap enough for it to make sense.
i HATE the Aubrey Huff idea. i'd rather see J-Rod get consistent paying time. what this team really needs is someone to platoon with Dunc and JED. for that reason, i could see Wilson coming back, or some of his ilk.
i propose NOT signing a back-up catcher, and let Rose or somebody fill that role. that'll save a million or so. also, i'd like to see a bullpen of Izzy, Looper, Thompson, Kinney, Johnson, Flores, Rincon or something close to that. not signing guys like Hancock who are replacement-level on good days will also free up some bucks. i believe we've also got Sosa for another year; not sure what good he'll be, but maybe Dunc can work some magic once again.
as for the bench... using Schumacher, J-Rod, Nelson (?), Miles, etc. will free up some cash. i'll miss Taguchi and Spiezio, but i think putting that money elsewhere is better for the team.
then you start with a rotation of Carp, Wainwright, Reyes. not a bad place to start for under 10/mil.
i think Jocketty's got some room to work, because of the young pitching he's got. hopefully he can get some good stuff done.
I thought that last year
Octavio Dotel?
Other suggestions from that article:
Ray Durham... is 83. He played with Satchel Paige.
Carlos Lee... makes Chris Duncan's outfield defense look like Jim Edmonds's.
Brad Radke... has a shoulder that makes Scott Rolen's look like the picture of health.
Aubrey Huff... is essentially a slightly more versatile Juan Encarnacion.
by Quietude on Oct 31, 2006 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
Hancock was considerably above replacement
As I said
success in the new ballpark
That similarity, however, no longer exists.
I told my sister
I assume...
Oh
by rockin redbird on Oct 30, 2006 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
I guess my
by rockin redbird on Oct 30, 2006 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
But the time we fans can use the term
by BozCardsFanSF on Oct 30, 2006 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Could very well be possible
by BozCardsFanSF on Oct 31, 2006 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
I got that feeling
As Tony Kornheiser often relates:
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 30, 2006 4:34 PM EST reply actions
Some other thoughts...
- After pointing out Oquendo's interviewing for managing jobs this morning, I hopped in the car and drove the 80 miles to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's main office to buy 2 newspapers for $3.00 apiece (the Stadium-only edition and the EXTRA edition), then bought my 2006 WS Champs shirt at the Stadium shop and drove back home. (I couldn't make it all weekend.) How nuts is that?
- I was also glad to see He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless pitcher being gracious and smiling and everything at the parade. Also, I have several bets on with people that he will be whining in a P-D article before week's end about his not being on the roster or being played. If I'm wrong, it's gonna hurt in the pocketbook. However, I expect to make out like the Marquis de Sade.
- I actually missed entirely that Encarnacion wasn't there. It's shocking that he wasn't. I don't know to be more shocked about his absence or Tony's telling his theory as to why he wasn't there (especially knowing he'd be crucified by media and fans if the reason given turns out to be correct). If HE starts whining, I will withdraw my support for him that has been there ALL season and say, TRADE HIS ASS.
- Mike Shannon's comments that he expects Tony will leave now are suspect in my eyes. I think Shannon secretly works against Tony, and I don't like it one bit. Also, the St. Louis media's repetition of the speculation after Tony has said those comments are 100% WRONG shows how completely inept most of them are. Try reporting for a change, you spoon-fed, couldn't-find-a-story-in-a-bookstore idiots.
- Having now seen Randy Flores up close and personal, I sooo confirm he's the absolute hottest one on the team. Dang, Randy!
larussa
Interesting point
Good regular season teams are balanced
Good postseason teams are very topheavy--they have one or two great starters, a couple of excellent sluggers, and a shutdown 'pen. Everyone else can be a defensive specialist that just eecks out a couplea runs. The seven (and especially five) game postseason format just doesn't emphasize the same things that makes a regular season team great. One of the reasons past Cardinal teams have been so disappointing is that their pitching depth, especially their fifth starter, were wholly useless.
They got shut down by the big three in 1996
Then by Al Leiter and Hampton in 2000
Then by Randy Johnson and Schilling in 2001
Then by Schmidt and Reuter in 2002
and in '05, they couldn't hit the Astros' rotation at all.
In each instance, they faced a shallower team with a frontloaded rotation that managed to win three or four games in the series on the backs of two very good starters. This year, Carp, Weaver and Suppan did it to the other teams, and we got to dump our loose baggage.
Go back to a two division format, make the CS seven games, and make the World Series nine games.
I guarantee you that you'll see the better regular season team win more often.
But hey if you really want the best team
Better yet, do away with the divisions and leagues and let everybody scrap it out in the regular season.
sigh I don't think there is anything wrong with the basic current format as long as everyone is aware of the rules ahead of time (unlike say... 1981).
Hmm... I am unsure why
I really do like it
I do like the WC but in my opinion, the unbalanced schedule is really an albatross. The competition now is more likely to be between teams in different divisions -- the Padres and Phillies this year or the Astros and Phillies last year. Therefore, the unbalanced schedule can unfairly affect who wins the wild card. If we evened out the schedule, you create a fairer competition between teams competing for the Wild Card. Usually, the Wild Card team is one of the best teams in the league and isn't in the playoffs as a fluke. Usually they're very good teams caught in very tough divisions as the Tigers were this year and the Astros were in the past 2 years (w/ the best team in the league).
I agree with that
Not to mention, that I get really, really sick of Cards-Brewers matchups around September
Wild Card Alternatives
Wild Card
Wild Card
Case 1
One of the divisions is incredibly weak (like the NL Central this year or the NL West in 2005). In this case, the wild card actually makes sure a stronger team from another division should make it into the playoffs.
In this case does it make sense to give any punishment to a better quality team that just happens to be in a tougher division?
Case 2
Most of the division winners all have about the same number of wins, the wild card on the other hand squeaks in with a relatively bad record.
This is the scenario we commonly think of when we go to make things more difficult for the wild card. Here people say this average team should have everything made harder for it to make up for the fact that it's in the playoffs.
What actually usually happens
The usual scenario though is that the wild card team tends to have the same number of wins as 2 out of 3 of the division winners with one team in the division of the wild card running away with it or just 4 teams that all have basically the same record.
In these cases, it seems that doing things to punish the wild card seem inappropriate or unnecessary in my book.
I'm happy with the way it is I guess. I mean, you have to admit it's exciting and nice to not have .500 teams dumping their players at the trade deadline every year.
by dontEATnachos on Oct 31, 2006 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
Case 1
Three divisional format + wild card almost guarantees that you are going to have a weak regular season team in the playoffs
3 Divisions
Also, though, let's not forget that there were some bad teams that made the playoffs even in the two division format -- the '87 Twins would have finished 5th in the AL East.
I'll be curious to see
Help
by TantoVanLanstrum on Oct 30, 2006 6:02 PM EST reply actions
This is the best blog out there
Question on something I just noticed from the pictures of the rally. Does Edmonds have a DK 57 tattoo on his right wrist? I've never noticed that before.
See yesterday's thread
It was mentioned in an interview
Here's a good pic of it

Tossing this one out there
He just seems like a guy that is made from that tried and true stamp of Duncan-reclamation project i.e. good stuff, very high GB/FB ratio but hasn't figured the elusive "it" out. He's coming off an absolutely brutal season which on the flip side means he is cheap as can be. He had a very good season as recently as 2003 and I think he'd make a low risk (1.5 mil plus big incentives?) high reward pitcher. If for nothing else, put him in there in the time that it takes Mulder to get back into the rotation and then as a safety net.
That could give us 4 starters for about 10 million lumping Mulder/Wells into one. That gives us the flexibility to go out and either fix our holes at 2B/platoon LF/CF or pursue one of the big time FA pitchers. Maybe even some of both.
I'm okay with the Kip Wells type signing
national media
Anyway, on to the serious stuff. Who was the last World Series winner to have five rookies on the postseason roster? With young talent and a veteran core of Pujols, Carpenter, and Rolen (assuming he doesn't run into anything or anybody) this team should be just as competitve for the remainder of the decade as it was the last few years.
by AL on Oct 30, 2006 7:21 PM EST reply actions
Re:
C'mon...What would a baseball season be without Rolen playing chicken with another player? ;)
yeah...
Which reminds me of the Deadspin post which linked this song. I wanted to say "look out it's Brandon Inge!" in hope of averting another basepath collision disaster.
Me, too
Saw it coming?...
That's Crazy
Free Agent Pitchers so far
Russ Ortiz, rhp; Danys Baez, rhp;
David Riske, rhp John Thomson, rhp;
J.C. Romero, lhp. Kerry Wood, rhp.
Octavio Dotel, rhp; Jason Johnson, rhp;
Gil Meche, rhp. David Weathers, rhp
Adam Eaton, rhp; Ray King, lhp;
Ted Lilly, lhp Tom Martin, lhp.
Justin Speier, rhp. Joe Borowski, rhp;
Matt Herges, rhp;
Brian Moehler, rhp.
Tomo Ohka, rhp
Orlando Hernandez,rhp
Steve Trachsel, rhp;
Aaron Fultz, lhp;
Arthur Rhodes, lhp;
Rick White, rhp
Randy Wolf, lhp.
Alan Embree, lhp;
Shawn Estes, lhp;
Rudy Seanez, rhp;
Steve Kline, lhp;
Jason Schmidt, rhp;
Mike Stanton, lhp.
Tony Armas Jr., rhp;
free agents
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 30, 2006 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
i'd like to see wolf as a Card
correct
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 30, 2006 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
second thought
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 30, 2006 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Rolen........
Oh, and speaking of Jeff Weaver,,,
maybe not
I don't
oh I don't mean I want either of them back
Juan E and edmonds out
I havent been hard on him and my wife pointed out he did do well against SD like belly then disapeared like belly. I was like at least belly can make good D plays.
I wouldt mind seeing them get a few OF for nezt yr or try some yougn guys
Wingmen for Jimmy
by Baily on Oct 30, 2006 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
juancion
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 30, 2006 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure if this has been posted yet...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 30, 2006 9:53 PM EST reply actions
spiezio
actually
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 30, 2006 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
wouldn't mind seeing them both come back
Wood
I lived in Chicago from '96 to '03. Wood was one of those guys that would get irritated when the team was losing, but Sosa was hitting home runs, so people were happy. He wanted to win, and wasn't afraid to say it.
Wood is the kind of guy that would probably love to play for the Cubs rival, revitalize his career, and kill them head to head several times a year.
With that being said - I suspect some other team will be willing to overpay for him more than the Cards will.
wood
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 30, 2006 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
by rockin redbird on Oct 31, 2006 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
David Eckstein on LENO
ChiSox keep Buehrle
by BTown Birds fan on Oct 31, 2006 12:22 AM EST reply actions
Also
by DuncanDipper on Oct 31, 2006 2:12 AM EST up reply actions
ESPN fired Harold Reynolds
by jojo5492 on Oct 31, 2006 9:43 AM EST reply actions
that was long ago
by dontEATnachos on Oct 31, 2006 10:24 AM EST up reply actions


















