The all-Cardinals team: 2B

by Valatan on Jan 26, 2006 12:42 AM EST Comment 18 comments

People seemed to enjoy the 1B installment, so let's keep this going. The Cardinals legacy has quite a bit of depth at 2B, sending four 2B to the Hall. Those four, Miller Huggins, Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch, and Red Schoendienst are obviously on this list. As per my rule from the 1B post, I also count Mr. Secret Weapon as a 2B for the purposes of this poll. Clearly Tommy Herr had a very long tenure with StL, as did Julian Javier. There were a few other guys that baseball reference has listed as 2B, so I'll include an 'other' this time. Now to the stats...

Also, I'm going to add runs scored for this one, as a lot of these guys were very light in the RBI department, but still would score 100 runs a season. Once again, these stats are those accumulated during the players' Cardinals tenure only.

Player-------OPS+|-R---|HR-|RBI-|SB-|-OBP|Games|Tenure
Huggins--------110|0507|005|0164|174|.402|803|'10-'16
Hornsby-------177|1080|191|1051|117|.427|1534|'15-'26
Frisch----------106|0831|051|0720|195|.440|1311|'27-'37
Red S.---------093|1086|067|0680|081|.388|1927|'45-1/2 '56, '61-3
Javier----------079|0719|076|0494|134|.297|1578|'60-'71
Herr------------097|0498|019|0435|152|.350|1029|'79-88
Oquendo-------093|0287|013|0227|017|.359|0989|'86-'95

Not too shabby for a position where defense is at a premium. It's actually pretty amazing how much stability StL has gotten at this position over the years. One of these guys was in place for each of the team's major championship runs. Some are clearly superior to others as far as offense goes, IMO, but I'll leave that to the voting. Regardless, depth at this position is part of why the All-Cardinals team is as good as the team that any other MLB team could assemble, except perhaps the Yankees.

Poll

Who is the best all-time Cards 2B?

Julian Javier

2 votes

Tommy Herr

20 votes

Jose Oquendo

5 votes

Other (please specify in comments)

0 votes

Miller Huggins

1 votes

Rogers Hornsby

190 votes

Frankie Frisch

6 votes

Red Schoendienst

7 votes

231 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 18 comments

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Comments

Hornsby = my choice

Offensively, he's probably the best 2B all-time, no matter what Joe Morgan says about himself. He also won two triple crowns and the MVP while playing for the Cardinals. The funniest thing I ever read about him was, after he retired from baseball, he was hired by various MLB teams as a scout, but was near useless because of his exteme negativity. One time they sent him out to scout this young player in the low minors. All Hornsby sent back to the home office was 'looks like a major league ballplayer.' That player was Mickey Mantle, and it was his most positive assessment of any young player.

by Valatan on Jan 26, 2006 1:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Raj

Got my vote as well, though I actually had to pause between him and the Fordham Flash.

Best Raj story that I've heard before V's. When Raj was managing, the Browns. Veeck put a clubhouse kid on him to trail him to make sure he stayed out of the bars and the gambling halls. Raj ended up turning the kid into his own valet who would run his numbers and bets to the hall for him.

By all accounts, the guy was a drunk, mean spirited SOB who would have probably given Cobb a run for most surly.

Though his career on the field has no rivals for the time period.

by Brock20 on Jan 26, 2006 8:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Gotta be Hornsby

and as long as we're throwing around Hornsby stories, Bill James has a few good ones from the Historical Baseball Abstract:

-His mom died on Oct. 2, 1926. As it happened, that was an off day for the team. Rogers didn't go home for the funeral.

-When Hornsby was managing in Cincinnati, "the players designated Grady Hatton to go to the front office and complain about the fact that Hornsby insisted on urinating in the showers, even after being asked not to."

-"In 1925, Hornsby was on the field, arguing loudly with Art Fletcher, when all of a sudden, without warning, he punched Fletcher in the face. Later, a reporter asked him why he had hit Fletcher. 'Well,' replied Hornsby very seriously, 'I wasn't making any progress trying to talk to him.'"

Gold. Terrible defensive 2B, by the way.

by Hummingbird on Jan 26, 2006 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I like

Hornsby too.The guy was a great hitter.Just image a 2bmen hitting .400 in todays era.I just love old time baseball stories.The guy punched someone in the face and after didn't say he was sorry.Could you image if that happen in today's game?thatwas when MEN were MEN and being that way earned respect.Today you punch a guy in the face your a thug or Kenny Rogers.The media so over plays eveything these day.But more stories if anyone has them please.I'm still rolling from the ones already

by sportsmanspark78 on Jan 26, 2006 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure

Hornsby's wondrous way with other people won him much respect, exactly...his bat did that job. Still, the stories are great. Here's one that I find hilarious: this guy has an amazing memorabilia collection, and this item has a pretty great Hornsby story attached to it. Remarkable.

by Hummingbird on Jan 26, 2006 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanx

for linking that, HB. What a riot--hadn't heard that one before.

by rockin redbird on Jan 26, 2006 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Obviously its the Rajah,

but I am quite impressed that you remembered Miller Huggins.

by Zubin on Jan 26, 2006 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Though

Hornsby is obviously the favorite (and deservedly so), I'm gonna cast my vote for ole Frankie Frisch--the guy the Birds got when they traded Hornsby. Hornsby was certainly the better all-time player, and did manage the Birds to their first World Championship in '26, but Frisch didn't do too badly himself--he also managed the Gas House Gang to the '34 World Championship. I think I'm giving FF the edge simply cause Hornsby is the obvious choice and Frankie deserves at least one vote.

by rockin redbird on Jan 26, 2006 9:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bob Broeg

worshipped Frankie Frisch.

And I worship Bob Broeg. All hail the Flash.

by flynn on Jan 26, 2006 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good!

Starting this one, I thought it'd be kind of boring and obvious, but I was suprised how well Frisch stacked up, absurd power aside.

It probably also should be noted that the 1926 Cardinals beat the Ruth/Gehrig Yankees in the WS to get their first title.

by Valatan on Jan 26, 2006 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Frankie Frisch,

And he's got one of the coolest nicknames ever, but I had to go with Hornsby. .403/.489/.756 in a season for a second baseman? That's a freaking joke.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 26, 2006 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you haven't read Veeck's autobiography....

then you need to. From his introduction onward, you know you are in for one great read. Probably some what re-imagined, but the stories are classics.

by Brock20 on Jan 26, 2006 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

While Hornsby takes the cake

how about a little love for Tommy Herr?! As a kid, he was second only to Ozzie as my favorite Cardinal. Also, this may be one of the best stat-lines for any second baseman in the light-hitting 80's:

Tommy Herr, 1985

302/379/416, 8 HR, 110 RBI, 80 BB, 31 SB, 3 CS

That's pretty remarkable, IMO.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 26, 2006 9:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

My Tommy Herr Story....

this one is a family heirloom so I have to tell the brief version of it. My family met Tommy Herr on the train at the St. Louis Zoo. He and his wife were riding around the zoo on the train, on an off day like a normal couple. He shook hands with my brother and I, were both 8 and under at the time and we let them be.

Tommy Herr and Joaquin Andauer were mine. Then Andy Van Slyke.

by Brock20 on Jan 27, 2006 8:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Something that Herr and Hornsby have in common

Both had very unique batting "stances."

Obviously I never saw Hornsby, but supposedly he stood deep and far in the box and took a stride towards home plate (and first) as he hit the ball. Essentially he was already running to first as he would make contact with the ball. This accounted for a remarkably fast time to first for a guy who otherwise had average speed.

Who can forget Herr's stance in the box? He would stand with his feet close together, bent at the knees and holding the bat well off his shoulder.

by Zubin on Jan 27, 2006 11:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs