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weekend discussion: mcgwire and the hall of fame

i'm with erik at play a hard 9 -- i'd rather talk baseball than steroids. but the mcgwire / steroids / HOF discussion has been too hot this week to ignore. bernie miklasz thinks the BBWAA should send mcgwire a message by keeping him out of the hall for one ballot. gene wojciechowski of espn seems to think they should keep him out altogether. wojo's column prompted a scathing rebuttal from danup, who boils the case against mac down to this: "Might have taken something that wasn't illegal."

that does, in fact, seem to be wojo's brief, and it's a weak one. weaker still is the implication that a single player should be held responsible for the sins of the whole game -- players, owners, the media, and yes the fans. we got off on the moon shots and the gaudy home-run totals; we wanted to see them. and so the game delivered, and thereby enriched itself immeasurably -- players, owners, and networks alike. mcgwire did exactly what his union, his bosses, and their partners wanted him to do; so why should he now be punished?

in my mind, the case against mcgwire doesn't begin with what he did or didn't do as a player, but rather with what he did last march before congress. his display of cowardice that day was so stark that it has come to define him more than any of his heroic displays on the diamond. i realize the guy was in an extremely uncomfortable spot; the esteemed men and women of the congress (you wanna talk about cowards?) were out for blood, using the players to put pressure on selig and poised to make an example out of somebody. the threat of prosecution hung over his head if he admitted using steroids -- which, while not banned from baseball during mac's career, were and are illegal without a proper Rx. but presumably he couldn't deny using them either because -- being under oath -- he would be perjuring himself. (his refusal to deny steroid use under oath is a more failsafe "proof" that he used them than a positive test result would be.)

so is that why there's this thirst to punish mcgwire -- because he chickened out? i think that's part of the reason: the hall of fame is for heroes, not cowards. but beyond that, i think a lot of people -- and put me into this category -- feel big mac owes us something. his request that we just accept his career at face value and forget about steroids is an affront. now that the lid has been blown on the juice era, we -- fans, the media -- feel entitled to know how heavily steroids influenced the game and the record book. mcgwire's stonewalling casts him in the role of a rich, privileged, powerful person seeking to avoid accountability, and there's already enough of that in our society. usually we can't do anything about it. here's a rare instance where we can actually impose some rough justice. it's only human nature that some would seek to do so -- just as it's human nature for mcgwire to try to cover his ass.

but the hall of fame doesn't exist to celebrate ordinary human nature; it's there to celebrate greatness. and mcgwire could -- perhaps must -- display greatness anew by helping us confront the steroid era head-on. we can't put this issue to rest until we have a clearer understanding of the extent to which steroids affected the game. you could argue that mcgwire bears a special responsibility to help us do that -- he, more than anyone except barry bonds, reaped the rewards of the steroid era. and now the dude has to pay his bill. is it unfair to charge mcgwire a higher admission price than usual for cooperstown? maybe not, if steroids cheapened his accomplishments in the first place.

erik's diary on this subject includes a poll about mcgwire and the HOF, which i invite everybody to cast votes in. one of the choices in the poll is: "i wouldn't vote for him until he talks." put me down for that. at the very least, i want to know how many years he juiced, and how widely known his steroid use was within his teams' clubhouses, front offices, and training staffs. if mcgwire can also shed light on steroids' proliferation arc -- how the breadth of their use ebbed and flowed over the course of his career -- so much the better. he doesn't have to name names; i just want a sense of how widespread these drugs really were, and how big an impact they had. our only source on this info to date has been jose canseco; mcgwire would be a much more credible witness.

i don't think big mac owes us any apologies for what he did. i do think he owes us the truth.

further reading at the hardball times and Athletics Nation.

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why?
I don't understand why people think Mcgwire owes them something.  Was he caught with anything other than andro?  Does he have a positive test?  Did he take food off of peoples tables or the clothes off of their back?  The man played baseball, a kids game, and got paid for it.  People went to watch him hit those moon shots and where disappointed if he didn't.  If people feel duped or cheated its their own fault.  The same fans and media that put him up on that mountain top, this god like figure, are the same ones wanting to knock him off.  And if anyone is that naive to think that he wasn't taking anything to be that size is a fool.  If you have ever got off of your butt and been to the gym, you know how hard it is to build muscle and to keep it.  The man did his job.  When he was hitting these home runs and drawing crowds there was none of this nonsense useless talk.  I think people just feel guilty because they participated, they praised him, and they wrote articles on how he and Sammy Sosa saved the game of baseball.  There is no proof anywhere to deny him entry, but there is plenty of truth to put him in the HOF.  I admit it was somewhat disgraceful to watch him squirm in front of congress, and people say that is what is inprinted in their minds.  But what I remember more is all of those press conferences, all those tears, and all the emotion he showed because he loved the game of baseball.  And speaking of congress!  Would people rather he pointed fingers like Palmeiro.  Deny, Deny, and Deny like he did.  That worked out real well.  Where was Barry Bonds?  Mr. Cream and Clear is about as guilty as guilty can be to me.  But it hasn't been proven.  That's a different arguement, so I won't jump off that bridge for now.  But I say the numbers speak for themselves and Mcgwire deserves to be there.  He shouldn't be judged in the court of OPINION.    

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 11:08 AM EST reply actions  

Archaeopteryx
This is what it's come down to?  Whether or not someone gets into the Hall depends not on what he did on the field, but your impression of how he held up under Congressional inquiry?

Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Kirby Puckett, Gaylord Perry, Enos Slaughter.  Perfect human beings?  No.  In the Hall?  Yes.    

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 21, 2006 11:38 AM EST reply actions  

C'mon...
We all knew this was going on.  It may not have been talked about publicly, but that little voice in everyones head knew these guys were juicing.  Especially the guys covering the sport.  The guys who day in and day out followed the sport, saw the signs, and said nothing.  
Now those same writers are the ones saying people like Mac don't deserve the HOF.  C'mon.  If it bothered you so much, you should have said something when it was happening.  That makes them as accountable.
Freezing in Wisconsin.

by WiscCard on Jan 21, 2006 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

re: the media
Reporters can't just come out and say, "I think such-and-such ballplayer uses steroids."

There are libel laws in this country. The onus falls on the reporter to prove his suspicions. Kinda difficult without firm evidence.

by 26thMan on Jan 21, 2006 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand libel...
laws.  Of course a reporter can't say that.  However, you know reporters do op-ed pieces where they can discuss in generalities their issues with the game.  Many could have started the discussion of steroids in baseball without naming specific names.  Starting the discussion of it then would have led to the removal of it from the game sooner.  
Freezing in Wisconsin.

by WiscCard on Jan 22, 2006 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

No they can't, but
when they witness a player doing so, or are provided with a source who won't go on the record saying that Jason Giambi shoved a needle through his pants on a plane trip.  It's a matter of unspoken rules regarding the relationship between players and reporters.  "We (reporters) won't report on your indiscretions (strip club attendance, marital infidelity, heavy drinking, steroids, greenies, etc...) and in return, you'll give us access to stories, and answer our frequently insipid questions.

by sdesserman on Jan 22, 2006 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Mac goes in 2008
Ripken and Gwynn are two class acts that were great for the game and are still active with it.
McGwire is hiding, he knows what he did is wrong whether or not it was illegal at the time.
Ripken and Gwynn should be role models for kids for years to come, McGwire should be made an example that taking steroids (it wasn't just andro) will not get you in the Hall.
get your fix at www.sportscrack.com

by MorrisonSoco on Jan 22, 2006 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Saying something
Some of us DID say something.

by Zubin on Jan 23, 2006 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

The indignance
of the BBWAA is laughable, if you ask me. These mooks see themselves as the arbitors of all that is right and wrong, and it's a joke. Most of them would cower if they ever confronted Mac in person, but they hide behind their word processors calling for ther guy's head. If Mac's entrance into the HOF boils down to what he did or didn't say in front of Congress, then he's better off not going in; first ballot or 15th ballot be damned. I want to see  these same guys react the same way when Mr. Balco comes up for vote. Something tells me they won't.

by cardsrul on Jan 21, 2006 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

humanity
ultimately McGwire is human, but for a couple years there he was a hero - and granted that uber-human status that goes along with it. We've always had the tendancy, as a society, to think that heroes are above fault. But ultimately heroes are just humans, and as everyone from Augustine to Joe Six Pack knows, humans are far, far from reproach, carrying with them the burdens of original sin (in the literary context not the religious one). Men win medals for things they do on battlefields out of sheer human/animal nature - driven by not altruism but the base sense of self-preservation. But because they are hailed as heroes, an unreasonable set of standards and expectations get assigned to them.

McGwire's fall from grace comes is tied into this. We annoit heroes-be it for saving lives or hitting home runs-because their actions, on the surface, embody the Platonic qualities we as a society and culture have set forth for ideal humans and human behavior-the very ideals we ourselves would like to live up to but deep down know that we're only human. When a hero does something that contradicts those ideals and expectations we have placed on them society pounces to condemn the person. No small part of this condemnation comes out of our own self-condemnation, the guilt we carry as inherently enculturated and moral members of a society, for our own failure to live up to these standards and ideals-unreachable by humans.

McGwire should go to the hall of fame because what he did in and for the game of baseball was far bigger than what he did as a human being, with all his (and our) inherent and natrual faults, when he testified before congress. I have no doubt in my mind he used steriods, in fact I suspect I wasn't the only one who had that sneaking suspicion in 1998. However, it was a different time and a different place. Condemning the fact eight years later belies the status WE ALL granted him then we he was a hero, doing heroic things.

Honoring McGwire with election to the HOF will honor the accomplishments as the end and not the means to the end. Steroids were once a problem, and the problem is being addressed and won't infect the sport again. Something else, however, will affect the sport again, as human nature pushes players to find any competitive edge they can.

The business of judging people for actions and situations we have not directly experienced is a tricky and dangerous business. The actions of McGwire the baseball player cannot be fairly judged by the actions of McGwire the testifying before congress. McGwire, or anyone who is granted  the impossible status of a hero, should not have to bear the burden of our own humanity. We made him a hero, and we must honor the thing that we made him a hero for.

by Ryan Van Bibber on Jan 21, 2006 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

Remember this?
link

Fans and media alike crowned both Big Mac and Sosa with the proverbial laurel leaves.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 21, 2006 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Would he have gotten in anyway?
To say, as herr29 does, that McGwire "shouldn't be judged in the court of OPINION," strikes me as ridiculous.  How else is he to be judged? Numbers don't "speak for themselves," they have a context.  Which is why Sandy Koufax is in the hall with 165 wins but Bert Blyleven,with 287 wins, is not.  Lboros is correct in saying that the HOF celebrates greatness.  But I could care less about his "greatness" in pubic, be it in front of Congress or otherwise.  We need to know the extent of McGwire's steroid use because we need to determine if -absent his cheating - he would've gotten in anyway.   Yes we fans are all complicit in the fraud; so what?  If he's a cheater, a racist, a drunk, a wife-beater, or a complete asshole, I could care less (see Ty Cobb). Which is why, IMO, Barry Bonds should get in. He would've generated HOF numbers without the steroids.  Palmiero, probably not. But McGwire is an open question--and that's why we need to know more about the extent of his 'roid use before judging him. With more information, I'm sure someone such as lboros could easily extrapolate McGwire's "non-steroid numbers" and then make a reasonable determination about whether McGwire belongs in the hall.  But it can't be done with the information we currently have.

by lerwin1 on Jan 21, 2006 2:31 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think the ownership's, media's and fans'
"compicity in the fraud" give McGwire et. al. any sort of free pass, but I do think it's useful to mention in that it provides some context to the current debate.  All of us(MLB, sports media, fans) were collectively cheering McGwire and Sosa in '98, and yet looking the other way as to why these two suddenly were so much BIGGER than they were only a couple of years ago.  

The way we view McGwire et. al. now reminds me a bit of that scene in Casablanca when the guy is "shocked! shocked! to find gambling going on this establishment!"

Why I think illustrating this context is important is because one popular reason I've heard for keeping McGwire out of the Hall, either for a year or indefinitely, is to "punish" him, or "teach McGwire a lesson."  I think it's very difficult to justify such a reason, when only 8 years ago we were collectively encouraging and rewarding the very sort of behavior we now so righteously condemn.    

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 21, 2006 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not suggesting
big mac alone should be held acocuntable; on the contrary, i'm going out of my way to say everybody's culpable.

but if nobody will talk about it, then how do we hold anyone accountable?

that's why i want mac to tell us not only what he did, but who knew about it --- teammates, owners, trainers, broadcasters, whoever. i want the whole ugly mess exposed.

we can no longer pretend that this era didn't happen, or that it doesn't really matter who took what enhancements. the only way to get beyond this is to expose the whole thing and understand it. the dude may be right --- we may have to place some kind of a hermetic seal around the whole decade.

but willful silence and blindness won't answer the questions or make the controversy go away.

by lboros on Jan 21, 2006 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

but
knowing what happend is not going to erase the past or make it go away so why talk about it.  Baseball seems to be on a better path right now, let's hope it stays that way.

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

forget it, repeat it
The United States violated the civil rights of Japanese-Americans during World War II. But that's in the past; why talk about it?

Herr 28, I guess you're not here to talk about the past, either. Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.

by 26thMan on Jan 21, 2006 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

i just
get tired of hearing and reading the same steroid items over and over with no end in sight.
There's no resolution, just repitition.

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

If the truth came out
it would be a heckuva lot more than just a dozen players who would be tainted.  I imagine everyone form trainers to managers to owners to the commisioner would be tainted.  

I think that's one of the reasons why suddenly MLB and MLBPA acted so swiftly to put a steroid "policy" in place.  A lot of people in the baseball industry would rather move on rather than let this fester and expose the systemic complicity of MLB.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 21, 2006 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Who knew?
"...but who knew about it --- teammates, owners, trainers, broadcasters, whoever."

Yes, yes, yes, yes.  And the fans knew too.

by Zubin on Jan 23, 2006 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Bonds deserves to be in?
Bonds yes, Mcgwire no.

Did bonds hit 70 home runs in Pittsburg?  Even when mcgwire was small, well smaller, he hit 47 his rookie season.  Both bulked up. Both hit 70 after bulking up.  I know Bonds had good numbers and mvp's in Pittsburg, but how can you justify voting in one and not the other.  The last I knew the Cream and Clear that Bonds used WAS illegal and he DID use it.  He used the ol' "i didn't know" which makes him look just as guilty as Mac's "i'm not here to talk about the past.
To me if Mcgwire doesn't get in neither does Bonds!

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yes
I agree 100%. No big mac no barry bonds. mac only "juiced" to help baseball. bonds "juices" to help himself and himself only. after big mac and sosa saved baseball and all the other hoopla, he retired. short of any records he could easily have reached. bonds continues to hunt down babe ruth and has stated he wants ruth, not so much aaron. what an asshole.
Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Come on, Pete...
Listen to yourself:

"Mac only juiced to help baseball."

Why do we continue to mythologize this guy? Do you actually think for one second that he thought: "I'm gonna cheat my way into the record books for the good of the game."

Heck, no, he didn't. He juiced because he was desperate to revive a flagging career, reasons just as selfish as the ones you ascribe to Bonds.

by 26thMan on Jan 21, 2006 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

oh....
what year was that?
Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

if...
I had proof either used, they would not get my vote. guess what..... both guys are going to the hall and there is NOTHING anyone can do.
Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Bonds & Mac-joined at the hip
I couldn't agree more...all I ask for is equal justice.  If the writers want to punish Mac, well, I guess that is their right.  But I'm gonna go postal if I see these same people kissing Bonds' ass this year or next when he gets past 755.  When we look back on the "steroids" era in a few decades or so, Mac and BB are gonna be the poster boys for those years.  So if Mac has to wait a year or five to get in, then Bonds better get the same treatment, even if he hits 800 HRs. Mac got a ton of crap dumped on him after his testimony to Congress, and perhaps rightfully so, but I don't really feel that Bonds has gotten the criticism I feel he deserves.  I didn't hear too many people asking why HE wasn't in Washington last March with Mac, Raffy and Corky and the rest.

by tbell61 on Jan 22, 2006 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Take Away the Records
I don't care especially care whether McGuire gets into the Hall of Fame or not, although I agree with LBoros that the Hall might be useful tool for making him talk.

My bigger concern is with the record books. Roger Maris and Babe Ruth had two of the most hallowed records in all of sports, and as far as I'm concerned, they still do.  

The purpose of the Hall of Fame is to distinguish and honor greatness.  I'll stipulate that McGuire was an extraordinary hitter.  I have no real problem acknowledging that in the Hall.

But he wasn't the greatest hitter of all time--not without chemical enhancements.  And that need for steroid driven enhancement makes him something less than Maris, and a lot less than Ruth.  Obviously, the same goes for Sosa and Bonds.  

That Sosa, Bonds, and McQuire were lesser hitters than Ruth simply is the truth.  This truth should be acknowledged and should not get obscured by steriod-induced hallucinations.

That's why, regardless of who is immortalized in the Hall, the record book should be kept clear.  I'm not suggesting asterisks.  I'm suggesting a whole different chart--one for those amped up on 'roids, and one for those who achieved without the need for such contrivances.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jan 21, 2006 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

We can't know for sure...
"But it can't be done with the information we currently have."

You can make the same argument for Bonds, IMO.
 

by cardsrul on Jan 21, 2006 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

so based on what i'm hearing here
then it doesn't matter if a corporate executive cooks the company books in order to drive up the stock price and gets rich cashing in his options. all that matters is the money in the bank --- right?

and it doesn't matter if a journalist, in his zeal to scoop the competition, invents a couple of "anonymous" sources to embellish an otherwise accurate story. go ahead and give the guy a pulitzer --- right?

and if a politician bends the rules to accept a few "harmless" favors from his rich lobbyist friends, and bends a few other rules to screw the political opposition, no need to hold him accountable at the ballot box---- right?

that's the drift of what i'm hearing. and i just don't agree with it.

by lboros on Jan 21, 2006 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe this....
LB, I think we were writing our comments at the same time and, irnoically, we seem to be dancing around the same thing.  Maybe you are talking about something else, but one thing I think bears thinking about is the notion that post-strike baseball might (MIGHT) have needed the sort of "juiced-up" boost it got from the Home Run Chase in 1998 to return it to prominence.  And by prominence, yes, I do include profitability, but not exclusively.

If you are a healty person, you don't need any extraordinary measures to keep you going.  If you are sick, though, you need something beyond the ordinary to bring you back to your normal level, then you can go on with your life without that "something" that brought you back.  I'm sure you're already there but: person = baseball; sick person = post-strike baseball; something beyond the ordinary = Home Run Chase fueled by steroids.  

Pennant races, no-hitters, exciting rookies, and close games are fun, but still "ordinary" and perhaps wouldn't have done the trick.  A two-man chase of one of the most hallowed records in sportsis fun, and definitely not ordinary.

by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

comparisons
  1.  When a CEO or corporate board "cooks the books" to drive up stock prices, the result is direct injury to smaller investors unable to cash out before the price bottoms out.  I fail to see how Mark McGwire caused direct injury to anyone by his alleged actions.  Indirectly, yes, in that he and others contributed to an environment where more and more players reasoned that they'd need to be "juiced" in order to compete at the Major League level.
  2.  Mark McGwire didn't pretend to hit 70 homeruns in 1998.  The journalist example is one of a direct perpetration of fraud.  McGwire at worst engaged in an indirect perpetration of fraud.  We'll never know how many of those 70 in '98 were the result of alleged roid use, and how many would've been homeruns naturally.  Still, McGwire hit 70 homeruns; he didn't fabricate any results.
  3.  The politician example seems to me more appropriate.  We should remind ourselves that McGwire in the late 90s was no ordinary major-leaguer - he and Sosa were the superstars and this did afford them much greater status and power.  One gets the feeling that neither thought the rules applied to them as they did to others.  We rightly should discuss McGwire's merits for the Hall in light of his apparent steroid use, but as I've said before on this thread, it's vital we understand the context of his apparent roid use as well.    
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 21, 2006 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Extremely...
well done, Matty Fred.  

by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

well put
Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

mcgwire injured the other competitors
when one player (mcgwire or anyone else) gains an unfair competitive advantage, he causes direct injury to the players he's competing against. his gain is their loss; his HR adds points to the pitcher's era and losses to the pitcher's record; for that matter it helps to inflict losses on the opposing team's record. it's directly analagous to an unscrupulous investor, inside trader, what have you.

in the journalist example, i'm not suggesting that he reported an untrue story. i'm saying he really reported the story and got it right, but in the rush to be first he used a small "enhancement."

i totally agree with your final paragraph. big mac's use of steroids SHOULD be discussed in context. he should not be singled out as a pariah, nor should his accomplishments be completely dismissed. he was a GREAT hitter and probably would have been a deserving hall-of-famer had he never used steroids.

that's why i want so badly for him to talk and reveal his (high-profile) part of the story. the shame associated with a taboo evaporates when the taboo is exposed to the light of day. once we get the truth out there, this issue will no longer be so explosive or convtroversial.

mcgwire only hurts himself by refusing to talk. miklasz got it right.

by lboros on Jan 21, 2006 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

123
  1.  I still don't see a book-cooking CEO as being analagous to McGwire, et. al., but I concede that McGwire, et. al., if "juiced," unfairly hurt other teams and opposing pitchers' ERAs by any "juice-induced" HRs they hit off of them.  (We rightly could even go so far as to say that these were monetary damages, in the sense that these pitchers' market value were negatively effected in a dishonest manner!)
  2.  McGwire never, even in part, misrepresented his record, simply because it's impossible to claim hitting homeruns that you didn't hit.  I'm arguing semantics here more than anything.  Your point about enhancement is well taken.
  3.  What I like about your politician example is that it illuminates by analogy the larger issue here with regard to McGwire, et. al. and performance enhancers.  Just as we've come to find out about those folks inside the Beltway, MLB too had developed a certain kind of systemic "culture of corruption" but with regard to performance enhancers.  It was common knowledge among those "on the inside," suspected by those "on the outside," but everyone sort of just let it go on as the money rolled in.  You're right, LB, that the whole truth is what we (and Big Mac) need.  Unfortunately, I think there are plenty of people involved in this throughout the baseball industry who'd rather the whole truth doesn't ever come out.  If it did, much more than HOF eligibility for a half-dozen ballplayers would be at stake.  Much better for the powers that be to pin this on a few "bad apples" supposedly acting independently rather than acknowledge the systemic causes and reinforcers of PED use.
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 21, 2006 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Assumptions
You're assuming--wrongly, as we both know--that none of the other players in MLB were using steroids.  Just the same way as when we talk about Gaylor Perry's spitball, it's as if he's the only pitcher ever to throw one.

Baseball is a game in which players are encouraged to "cheat."  Doctor the ball, cork the bat, make the phantom tag, make the "vicinity play," hit players to intimidate them, go flying into second with your spikes up.

When Jeffrey Meier caught that home run ball off Jeter's bat, replays clearly showed that it was fan interference.  I don't seem to remember that sportswriters sat around writing stories demanding that the Yankess forfeit that game, or that Jeter's homerun shouldn't "count."  Players do what they have to do--legal or not--to win their games, and we all turn the other way, as long as the player is playing for our team.  If our guy injures a second baseman trying to break up a double play--even if he isn't on the bag--we congratulate him on playing hard and being a gamer.

You can't have it both ways, folks.  Do you really want to go back and change McGwires stats?  Delete them from the record books?  Are you going to go back and delete the stats of every racist player from the thirties and forties, because he didn't play against all the best players?  Do the Cardinals, then, have to give up the 1946 World Series championship because Enos Slaughter was a racist?  Do we delete Gaylord Perry's wins from the record book because he "probably" cheated in every one of them?    

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 21, 2006 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Do we spite our saviors?
It was sort of touched on in the post, but I find it ironic that McGwire and Sosa, the guys who "saved baseball" in 1998, are now being spat upon by the same scribes who lauded them like Greek gods, literally, as the SI photo shows, in 1998.  To believe those scribes, the game NEEDED a Hurculean effort to raise it up from the ashes of the strike and thrust it back in the face of the American fan.  Sosa and McGwire not only did that, they thrust the game in the face of all the non-fans, as well.  

he Home Run Chase of 1998 wasn't just leading the sports pages, it was leading the front pages, nationwide.  Could that have been done "naturally"?  If not, then would baseball have been "saved"?  Would we still be wallowing in the mire of post-strike malaise and pitied by hockey fans?  Was the juiced-up home run derby of that summer a horrible, shameful event we should all view as a giant fraud, or was it absolutely necessary to resurrect this game?  

I hope the HOF voters will consider all of this when they stare at McGwire's name on their ballot.

by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 3:16 PM EST reply actions  

i think you're right that
the HR derby was viewed as a way to "save" baseball, and people tacitly encouraged the use of steroids in the name of that cause.

i just don't think we should be celebrating that episode. we should be embarrassed by it

by lboros on Jan 21, 2006 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed and
hopefully, we could use McGwire's upcoming HOF eligibility to take a more reasoned and sober look at the "juiced era."  Unfortunately, I don't trust our media to do anything reasoned and sober when it's so much easier just to sensationalize.
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jan 21, 2006 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

ditto
I don't think it should be celebrated either.  But sportswriters tick me off.  They have made it the way it is(this arguement).

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The real point, though
was not about "that episode," but rather its after- effects.  The game today is thriving.  Attendance records are being set all over the place, new ballparks have been built at a rapid pace, and baseball is spoken year round on satellite radio, local radio, MLBTV, and countless blogs like this one.  The game in 1995 was floundering.  What happened in between?  If you are embarrassed about what happened then, how can you not be embarrassed by what it led to, which is the game today?

I'm not saying the game couldn't have done the same without the juiced years.  Perhaps the natural appeal of the game would have won people back over.  We'll never know, though.

by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Mac was no coward
in front of Congress---what was we he supposed to do, basically open himself up to a federal drug conviction when he didn't have to?

Would ANYBODY have admitted doing somthing illegal in that situation---when "taking the fifth" would have spared you being charged with a crime?

It seems like McGwire has been vilified for not willingly walking into a lion's den and putting himself behind bars, when he was under no legal obligation to do so.

He had three choices: (1) Lie; (2) Tell the truth and then have Congress try to make an example out of him (and believe me they would've tried); or (3) take the fifth.

Leave the guy alone.

by salvomania on Jan 21, 2006 3:57 PM EST reply actions  

if he was there to exercise his legal rights
then he should have said: "i am invoking my 5th amendment right." that would have been honest.

instead he attempted to cast his own self-preservation ---- which, i agree with you, he has every right to pursue --- as selflessness, viz "let's not talk about the past, let's talk about the future, i'm here to help, let's be positive and move forward."

if you're exercising a constitutional right to silence, then state it as such. don't try to pretty it up in euphemisms.

it's mcgwire's refusal to accept responsibility for his actions that is cowardly.

by lboros on Jan 21, 2006 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Andro
We don't know about his steroid use.  But, we do know he took andro and won't deny it he defended it.  Others I work with, as well as myself, have taken andro.  Well I did before it was banned last year.  Anyway, guys I know that used the andro and also used steroids say that the andro was actually better or just as good.  Does this sway anyone's opinion one way or the other.  Just curious?

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 4:13 PM EST reply actions  

McGwire and Bonds
Look at both players' numbers for the first 10 years of their careers.  If you look at Bonds' hr's, ba, sb's, and slugging %, he was definitely on track for the hall. And he was mostly healthy.   Perhaps he was taking stuff all along, but the stats seem to indicate that he didn't start doing them until 1999 or 2000. The numbers are not so clear for mcgwire. He had a good slugging percentage, but he was constantly hurt, he didn't run, and his batting average was mediocre.  I'm not saying he definitely wouldn't have gotten in to the hall, but it's not clear to me he would've.

by lerwin1 on Jan 21, 2006 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

numbers
Who cares about the numbers and percentages before and after.  If Bonds took anything at anytime he doesn't belong.  Pete Rose got caught gambling.  Is he in?  If he did it. he did it.

by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Amen
To me betting on baseball is microscopic next to steroid usage, who altered the game more?  Corky and his corked bat did more to tarnish the game than Pete did.
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jan 21, 2006 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Betting is far worse
once a player has a financial incentive to alter the outcome of a game---and let's face it, a single player has a far greater ability to ensure that his team loses a game, rather than wins---the result of every single game in which he plays is compromised. That means pennant races are compromised.

With a percentage of players bulking up off the field by using legal (and illegal) methods, the result of the game is still decided by players doing their all to win (just like Gaylord Perry did, with his spitball, etc.). While still objectionable to most fans, no one can argue that PED-fueled players are motivated to be the best baseball player they can be.

Players (or managers) who have money on a game's outcome (or spread) will intentionally alter the play on the field to achieve a result other than one that which provides the best chance of winning the game.

by salvomania on Jan 21, 2006 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

BIG MACs Yummy
For his career, mr mac AVERAGED 50 HR 122 RBI & 101 RUNS per season. HoF worthy????? This is just a way for sportswriters to write sensational headlines and note the hall worthiness of some soon to be eligible players. Mac will get in, but its a warning for future players. cameniti and conseco, sosa, bonds, raffy, corky.. oh, i already mentioned him, bagwell, and everyone else with big muscles or homerun totals. mr anderson of the angels, or brady of the Os. this list could go on forever. If its not called its not a foul.period. poor lance armstrong should be wearing federal greys according to all of France. 6 tours after brain cancer??? just a thought.  
Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 7:03 PM EST reply actions  

Lance Armstrong had testicular cancer,
not brain cancer.   Not a walk in the park, but much less serious.

by Valatan on Jan 21, 2006 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually,
He had testicular cancer, THEN brain cancer.  

by sdesserman on Jan 22, 2006 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Strictly speaking
his brain cancer was a spread of his testicular cancer, not a new cancer of brain origin.

by oldbirdwatcher on Jan 22, 2006 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

fuzzy math
To use B-R's "162-game average" is a little misleading in this argument.

His "per-season" (your phrase) averages of the numbers you state are 36 HR, 88 RBI and 73 R.

He played 16 seasons and lost a great deal of time to injury in the mid-1990s. Perhaps that helps explain how his numbers shot into the stratosphere starting in '95.

by 26thMan on Jan 22, 2006 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Mac
For one, you can't just come out and say McGwire used steroids. Get this, it has never been proven. Until someone invents a time machine, goes back to the late 90's, and steals a cup of the guy's piss, there is no incriminating evidence. That is what it boils down too, you cannot exclude someone from the Hall of Fame just because you THINK he MIGHT have broken the rules - oh, wait, it wasn't against the rules at the time anyway. It's that simple, and there is no way around it.

As far as Congress goes, again, it means nothing. You can make all the assumptions you want but your opinion doesn't matter. There was nothing wrong with McGwire's testimony. In fact, it is his right not to incriminate himself. Someone else has to prove he did it, and until that happens, tough crap.

Unless he comes out and admits he used steroids, then it will never be proven. In fact, for all any of you know he never did take any, you just make the choice to assume he did, when you could just as easily assume he didn't. Ever since this steroid issue hit the public, everyone has been looking for someone to crucify, with little regard to fact.

Facts:

  1. Without a confession, it cannot be proven Mac took 'roids.
  2. Even if he took them, there was no rule against steroids while he was an active player.
  3. His testimony to Congress does not prove anything, one way or the other.
  4. Mac hit 47 HR's as a skinny rookie in the late 80's.
I'm no expert, but it would seem to be obvious that 10+ years would be plenty of time for a guy to bulk up without using steroids. Especially when considering the amount of time Big Mac reportedly spent in the weight room.

Big Mac has always been a private guy, so it should come as no surprise that he isn't out holding press conferences everyday talking about 'roids. Even the whole deal with Congress, he took the easy way out, likely because he didn't want the attention, it just backfired. If he would have denied taking them, everyone would be calling him a liar. If he had admitted it, he would've caught hell for that too. So he just didn't say anything,  probably because he knew he was screwed regardless.

It really is a shame, McGwire helped generate so much interest in baseball, and now he's been treated like garbage.

The point is, until it can be proven one way or the other (and it won't, ever) everyone should quit dragging McGwire's name through the mud.

Good day.

by CougarCard on Jan 22, 2006 1:24 AM EST reply actions  

if he has nothing to be ashamed of
then why won't he talk about the past?

he has it within his power to get people like me to stop speculating --- just come out and be honest. after all that his fans have given him ---- fame fortune adulation etc etc --- he owes us that much.

i'm ready to listen whenever he's ready to talk. but i don't expect him to anytime soon.

by lboros on Jan 22, 2006 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is this debatable?
Sportswriters would like us to believe that their vote is a decision of exceptionally monumental importance.  They imagine that this vote constitutes moral judgment that must condone activities beyond the lines or even exoneration of indictments.  They suggest that they must even reckon with how players represent themselves, before the press and even congress.  And then just to insult the intelligence of the public, they would like us to imagine that they are the standard bearers, and without their diligence we the public might confuse the comparisons of generations.

So now it is the issue of drug use, during an era when the same people had no backbone to even make it clearly against the rules.  Were there no steroids, do they really think we are fools enough not to recognize dozens of other factors that also make it impossible to freely compare generations.

We have to suffer the differences of Haitian baseballs, monster gloves, lowered mounds, Astroturf, night-games, vanquished double-headers, indoor stadiums, altered strike zones, and 3rd generation lumber.   Still worse we've permitted new parks with goofy walls, short porches, even flag poles inside the wall and hills.  Not to mention that player's trainers now have sports medicine degrees instead of bartender certificates.  The public is nonetheless capable of recognizing the players that were our heroes and became famous, in each of their respective eras.  We are talking about a hall of fame.

Please spare me the notion that the sportswriters must now weigh the purity of the establishment by reconsideration of an era and the worthiness of a few, and they consider this monumental task on our behalf because they are sure that we are incapable.

Furthermore, when they tell us all they really want is the truth, they won't say when they need it or to what end.  After McGwire has been inducted and is as old as Deep Throat, and all the players of that era have seen their last chance on the ballot go by, then perhaps we might hear another word.  And what difference will it make.

Take the sportswriters off their high throne, and return to selection to a basis of performance between the lines and impact upon their respective era.  And if there is a feature they don't like, perhaps they should lobby to change the rules, again.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jan 22, 2006 2:08 AM EST reply actions  

McGwire.......He didn't lie.
COME ON!..........all this begs the question....would we prefer it if he lied? I'd ask all critics to put themselves in his shoes, sitting under oath, before congress.....think honestly....what would you have said?

by musialfan on Jan 22, 2006 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

Why stop at McGwire?
Why not ask for a sworn statement from all HOFers and potential HOFers about what they did and didn't do.  Do you honestly think that illegal stuff in baseball only started in 1998?  Of course we could open up a whole new can of worms if we started talking about the Football Hall of Fame.

Do you think that there arent people in the Hall now who never took performance enhancing whatever during their career?  Pushing the envelope is part of sports period.  At this point, if you think the sports you're watching (and have been watching) are completely clean, then you're lying to yourself.

by bailorg on Jan 22, 2006 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

Steroids the worst
Besides the Black Sox way back, is throwing games rampant in MLB?  Pete Rose didn't do that, be bet on his team to win.  He didn't do anything but believe in his team and get a little side action from his belief.  His betting had nothing to do with what happened on the field.  Compare the two morally in our society since alot of the HOF supposedly has do do with that now.  All questionable behavior up until steroids has for the most part been off field activities.
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jan 22, 2006 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

Betting
Gambling on baseball is the No. 1 inviolable rule of baseball. It is posted in every clubhouse. Cheat Rose walked by that posting every single day and willfully chose to ignore it.

And how did we get to talking about Rose and gambling? It's funny how sometimes these discussions morph into other tangents.

by 26thMan on Jan 22, 2006 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

What should the HOF be?
Thanks LB for a thought provoking post.  After reading it and the commentary it has elicited, I would offer several thoughts:

  1) There are a number of factors that skew the stats that help determine election to the hall, many of which have been commented upon. They include, among others, the changes in equipment over time, the training regimens (not including steroids), park characteristics, how pitchers are used, night baseball, who else is in your batting order, etc.
   2) Perhaps the largest bias is the voting procedure. Since voters have 10 spots on the ballot, the outcome is determined by the 10 best players eligible in a given year, regardless of how they stack up against the whole of baseball history.  This can work for or against a given player.
   3) We can all list players in the hall whose personal history reflects cheating or other undesirable traits, and others whose baseball records are inferior to others who have been left out.

With these problems in mind, I ask myself what the hall should represent.  If purity is to be considered, a lot of editing of the existing roster is needed. If the criterion is purely statistical, we can let computers make the picks.  If we look only at who did the most to help his team win on the field, then we have to overlook a lot we don't like.

On another issue, I think cheating at sports does hurt the immediate participants by skewing the competition, but in the larger sense it hurts the fans more.  The record book is already filled with stats that aren't reflective of reality--more doesn't help.

by oldbirdwatcher on Jan 22, 2006 2:52 PM EST reply actions  

Wow
Just got back in town and back to cyberspace and see there's been quite a healthy debate going on. I've read every post and agree with bits and pieces of most. For me, the most disappointing thing is not that Mac used steroids. As many of y'all have pointed out--it was the baseball culture of the time and it was given either flat-out approval or a wink and a nod by everybody from management to fans. That's hard for me to judge. Had I been in his shoes, I probably would have done the same.

No, it's the crybaby non-denial he gave in DC that hurt me. He could have fessed up, he could have said no way, he could have pled the 5th. I would have been fine with any of those (even though I wouldn't have believed an outright denial). But watching him squirm and choke and cry and do everything in his power to somehow come off as the victim really diminished him in my eyes. Then when he hid behind his boy when he tore down his number at Busch--ouch! Another couple rungs down the ladder of respect.

On one hand, the whole world of baseball stats and rewarding accomplishments has been skewed and unfair from the start due to rascism. We still pretty much look at guys like Babe Ruth as the pinnacle, when it's a pretty sure bet there were black players who, if not better, would have certainly given him a run for the money. But the record books and the Hall go on. And I'd also bet my bottom dollar that Mac would be far from the first inductee whose performance was enhanced by one drug or another.

On the other hand, my disappointment with him on a personal level is hard to overcome. I want what LB wants--some sort of rehabilitation of his dignity. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen--at least till he's an old man, has his spot in the Hall, and knows it is permanent. Maybe not even then, cause really, what will then be the point (except to possibly make some more money with a tell-all book, which would negate anything positive for us fans anyway. This kind of book will happen regardless, I also believe.).

I suppose if I actually had a vote, I'd begrudgingly give it to him--but not for Mac personally. I'd end up voting him in simply because I don't believe holding him to a tougher standard than many who are there already is fair either. The numbers are what the numbers are and, ultimately, that's always been the standard. He's also a Cardinal, and as much as I hate to admit it, I'll let my boys in Red get away with damn near anything that isn't proven. And though you'd have to be a complete idiot at this point to believe he's innocent--well, that's America folks. Innocent till proven guilty. Especially for a Bird.

I'll never see him in the same way again. I'll never trust a word that comes out his mouth. I'll always be slightly embarrassed when he's brought up in a baseball conversation--but I'd give him his damn plaque.      

by rockin redbird on Jan 22, 2006 8:19 PM EST reply actions  

Good point.
This is pretty much exactly the way I feel.  

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 22, 2006 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

to me this is all about power
not home-run power; financial power, political power.

it's about the greed of owners, union execs, tv execs, agents, and yes players --- all of whom, in their pursuit of unseemly amounts of wealth, colluded to distort the game we all love.

old bird hit the nail on the head in his comment above --- when mcgwire cheated, he ultimately cheated you and me. he wasn't the only cheater, and he couldn't have gotten away with it without a lot of encouragement and a lot of help. but that doesn't absolve him.

and he compounds his cheating, and continues to insult the fans and the game, by holding himself above judgment.

that's not power; that's abuse of power.

again, he's hardly alone in doing it. but the corporate cheats and the political cheats in our country like to make the same excuse --- "everybody's doing it." that doesn't mean you let it slide.

by lboros on Jan 22, 2006 8:54 PM EST reply actions  

power outage
The pedestal on which we put our athletes, our heros, are created by us the fans. We create these monsters then become upset or dismayed when they fall or stumble. ESPN, SI, STL Post, everyone, everywhere shares in the blame. How many times did we ask if Mac went yard? Did Sosa? This fever of excitement travels like wildfire through sporting communities and we all fan the flames. Multimillion dollar contracts to produce using our bodies to compete. If the Olympics has a huge doping problem/commitee why wouldn't the Pro USA sports????  MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. Until the fans step up and say no, it will continue. No to purchasing tickets, no to $7.00 hotdogs, and no to a $5 million pitcher with a losing record.

When the fans speak with their wallets and not their voices, you will see change.

Leo Durocher called Reiser the only ballplayer he ever saw who was better than Willie Mays. from NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

by pistolpetereiser on Jan 23, 2006 2:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Dancing around the issue...
LB and PPR got it right...

Baseball seems to have a real problem accepting cheating whether its corked bats, scuffed balls or steroids.

by Zubin on Jan 23, 2006 2:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Not one word
has been said in all of these posts about something I read in (I think) the year-end Sports Illustrated.  

LB has pretty much led the charge here for the "I want McGwire to speak out" crowd, which has many members.  Well, the article I read in SI mentioned something about McGwire being ready and willing to go in to that Senate hearing and do just that.  The problem, though, was that he had not been out of the game for five years, which left him still within the statute of limitations for persecution of his wrongs.  McGwire, from what I what I read, requested immunity in exchange for his testimony, wasn't given it, and then decided to follow his lawyer's advice and resort to the feeble performance he ultimately turned in.  I believe one quote in that story came from his lawyer, who said something like, "Had this been just one year later (with Mac being outside the statute of limitations period), things would have been much different."

Anyone else read that article in SI?  I'm really surprised nobody else has mentioned it.  If it is true then perhaps we can expect something from McGwire once the SOL passes.  Who knows?      

by flynn on Jan 23, 2006 10:10 AM EST reply actions  

Fantasy Land: The Congressional Hearing
What I can't understand is why everyone gets so worked up about the congressional hearings.  If McGwire said ANYTHING of substance, he could have been prosecuted for it.  If anything, he was guilty of bad lawyering.  If you are basing your feelings of McGwire off of that, instead of the millions of dollars he gave to charity (or the fact that he bailed out Sammy Sosa's charity), that he took a discount to play for the Cardinals or the fact that his teamates loved him, then we have different views of being disappointed in people.

How about this possible scenerio for telling the truth:  "Did you use steroids Mr. McGwire?"  McGwire:  "Well technically, I used some substances that weren't considered steroids at the time, but they are now.  They were called "pre-cursors" at the time and weren't illegal or against any rules.  I was always staying one step ahead of the law and about 100 steps ahead of major league baseball.  I probably shouldn't have taken them, because I didn't know enough about them, but you can't imagine how frustrating it was to always be breaking down all the time.  Hold on, that kid in the front row can't quite hear me, can we turn up this microphone?  Anyway, I also was prescribed steroids by my doctor a couple of times (who hasn't) to get over a few baseball injuries.  When my knuckles didn't get hairy and I didn't grow a third boob, I thought their might be some legal substances that could help me that may not be so bad for me.  I may have got some bad advice on that, but what can you do.  So yeah, I guess I have to answer yes to that, and I'd do it again to stay healthy.  Oh yeah, there was this one time I ran a red light in college, and this one time in high school when I picked up a 5 fingered discount at a convenience store, and my accountant screwed up my taxes in 1997, and I paid a little bit less than I should have.  Hopefully there is something in there that you can use to send me to jail.  I'm really tired of this home life with my beautiful wife and kids."  

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jan 23, 2006 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

as i said above
he had every right to assert a constitutional right against self-incrimination.

but if that's what you're doing, ie protecting your own interests, then don't pretend you're there to serve the public or the greater good. mcgwire tried, rather feebly, to do that.

take responsibility for your own actions, and others won't feel so compelled to hold you responsible themselves.

by lboros on Jan 23, 2006 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

in other words
he should have simply said: "i plead the 5th."

by lboros on Jan 23, 2006 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Face the Nation
Oh yeah, and that Ozzie was a bastard for having his kids go out there with him to pull his number down.  I was going to spew a little hate his way for not giving me an autograph one time when he was a kid but noooo... he wouldn't let me.  It's my god given right to boo the piss out of him, but I really like that Neko kid.  How can you boo an American Idol?..  

Maybe McGwire lives in a world without blogs and talk radio and has no idea a select few in St. Louis hates him.  Maybe he just wanted his newborn baby and kids to be a part of his life.  How many people brought their famlies to pull down their number?  75%?  Look at Edmonds, I don't think he realizes that their are 49 other states in the union when he's in California.  What makes everyone so sure that McGwire had an alterior motive when pulling off the number?  He probably just wanted them to get cheered like he once was. (And they were cheered, more than anyone else).

Personally, I think McGwire definitely took substances that are now considered illegal.  I think he used every edge he could to get past the injury problems of his past.  He may have crossed the grey line and taken something illegal when doing so (or he may not have).  We will never know.  I have zero proof that he did.  He's in, make the rules better for the future and MOVE ON!

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jan 23, 2006 10:24 AM EST reply actions  

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