weekend discussion: mcgwire and the hall of fame
i'm with erik at play a hard 9 -- i'd rather talk baseball than steroids. but the mcgwire / steroids / HOF discussion has been too hot this week to ignore. bernie miklasz thinks the BBWAA should send mcgwire a message by keeping him out of the hall for one ballot. gene wojciechowski of espn seems to think they should keep him out altogether. wojo's column prompted a scathing rebuttal from danup, who boils the case against mac down to this: "Might have taken something that wasn't illegal."
that does, in fact, seem to be wojo's brief, and it's a weak one. weaker still is the implication that a single player should be held responsible for the sins of the whole game -- players, owners, the media, and yes the fans. we got off on the moon shots and the gaudy home-run totals; we wanted to see them. and so the game delivered, and thereby enriched itself immeasurably -- players, owners, and networks alike. mcgwire did exactly what his union, his bosses, and their partners wanted him to do; so why should he now be punished?
in my mind, the case against mcgwire doesn't begin with what he did or didn't do as a player, but rather with what he did last march before congress. his display of cowardice that day was so stark that it has come to define him more than any of his heroic displays on the diamond. i realize the guy was in an extremely uncomfortable spot; the esteemed men and women of the congress (you wanna talk about cowards?) were out for blood, using the players to put pressure on selig and poised to make an example out of somebody. the threat of prosecution hung over his head if he admitted using steroids -- which, while not banned from baseball during mac's career, were and are illegal without a proper Rx. but presumably he couldn't deny using them either because -- being under oath -- he would be perjuring himself. (his refusal to deny steroid use under oath is a more failsafe "proof" that he used them than a positive test result would be.)
so is that why there's this thirst to punish mcgwire -- because he chickened out? i think that's part of the reason: the hall of fame is for heroes, not cowards. but beyond that, i think a lot of people -- and put me into this category -- feel big mac owes us something. his request that we just accept his career at face value and forget about steroids is an affront. now that the lid has been blown on the juice era, we -- fans, the media -- feel entitled to know how heavily steroids influenced the game and the record book. mcgwire's stonewalling casts him in the role of a rich, privileged, powerful person seeking to avoid accountability, and there's already enough of that in our society. usually we can't do anything about it. here's a rare instance where we can actually impose some rough justice. it's only human nature that some would seek to do so -- just as it's human nature for mcgwire to try to cover his ass.
but the hall of fame doesn't exist to celebrate ordinary human nature; it's there to celebrate greatness. and mcgwire could -- perhaps must -- display greatness anew by helping us confront the steroid era head-on. we can't put this issue to rest until we have a clearer understanding of the extent to which steroids affected the game. you could argue that mcgwire bears a special responsibility to help us do that -- he, more than anyone except barry bonds, reaped the rewards of the steroid era. and now the dude has to pay his bill. is it unfair to charge mcgwire a higher admission price than usual for cooperstown? maybe not, if steroids cheapened his accomplishments in the first place.
erik's diary on this subject includes a poll about mcgwire and the HOF, which i invite everybody to cast votes in. one of the choices in the poll is: "i wouldn't vote for him until he talks." put me down for that. at the very least, i want to know how many years he juiced, and how widely known his steroid use was within his teams' clubhouses, front offices, and training staffs. if mcgwire can also shed light on steroids' proliferation arc -- how the breadth of their use ebbed and flowed over the course of his career -- so much the better. he doesn't have to name names; i just want a sense of how widespread these drugs really were, and how big an impact they had. our only source on this info to date has been jose canseco; mcgwire would be a much more credible witness.
i don't think big mac owes us any apologies for what he did. i do think he owes us the truth.
further reading at the hardball times and Athletics Nation.
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why?
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 11:08 AM EST reply actions
Archaeopteryx
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Kirby Puckett, Gaylord Perry, Enos Slaughter. Perfect human beings? No. In the Hall? Yes.
C'mon...
Now those same writers are the ones saying people like Mac don't deserve the HOF. C'mon. If it bothered you so much, you should have said something when it was happening. That makes them as accountable.
re: the media
There are libel laws in this country. The onus falls on the reporter to prove his suspicions. Kinda difficult without firm evidence.
by 26thMan on Jan 21, 2006 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I understand libel...
No they can't, but
Mac goes in 2008
McGwire is hiding, he knows what he did is wrong whether or not it was illegal at the time.
Ripken and Gwynn should be role models for kids for years to come, McGwire should be made an example that taking steroids (it wasn't just andro) will not get you in the Hall.
by MorrisonSoco on Jan 22, 2006 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
The indignance
humanity
McGwire's fall from grace comes is tied into this. We annoit heroes-be it for saving lives or hitting home runs-because their actions, on the surface, embody the Platonic qualities we as a society and culture have set forth for ideal humans and human behavior-the very ideals we ourselves would like to live up to but deep down know that we're only human. When a hero does something that contradicts those ideals and expectations we have placed on them society pounces to condemn the person. No small part of this condemnation comes out of our own self-condemnation, the guilt we carry as inherently enculturated and moral members of a society, for our own failure to live up to these standards and ideals-unreachable by humans.
McGwire should go to the hall of fame because what he did in and for the game of baseball was far bigger than what he did as a human being, with all his (and our) inherent and natrual faults, when he testified before congress. I have no doubt in my mind he used steriods, in fact I suspect I wasn't the only one who had that sneaking suspicion in 1998. However, it was a different time and a different place. Condemning the fact eight years later belies the status WE ALL granted him then we he was a hero, doing heroic things.
Honoring McGwire with election to the HOF will honor the accomplishments as the end and not the means to the end. Steroids were once a problem, and the problem is being addressed and won't infect the sport again. Something else, however, will affect the sport again, as human nature pushes players to find any competitive edge they can.
The business of judging people for actions and situations we have not directly experienced is a tricky and dangerous business. The actions of McGwire the baseball player cannot be fairly judged by the actions of McGwire the testifying before congress. McGwire, or anyone who is granted the impossible status of a hero, should not have to bear the burden of our own humanity. We made him a hero, and we must honor the thing that we made him a hero for.
by Ryan Van Bibber on Jan 21, 2006 12:39 PM EST reply actions
Remember this?
Fans and media alike crowned both Big Mac and Sosa with the proverbial laurel leaves.
Would he have gotten in anyway?
I don't think the ownership's, media's and fans'
The way we view McGwire et. al. now reminds me a bit of that scene in Casablanca when the guy is "shocked! shocked! to find gambling going on this establishment!"
Why I think illustrating this context is important is because one popular reason I've heard for keeping McGwire out of the Hall, either for a year or indefinitely, is to "punish" him, or "teach McGwire a lesson." I think it's very difficult to justify such a reason, when only 8 years ago we were collectively encouraging and rewarding the very sort of behavior we now so righteously condemn.
i'm not suggesting
but if nobody will talk about it, then how do we hold anyone accountable?
that's why i want mac to tell us not only what he did, but who knew about it --- teammates, owners, trainers, broadcasters, whoever. i want the whole ugly mess exposed.
we can no longer pretend that this era didn't happen, or that it doesn't really matter who took what enhancements. the only way to get beyond this is to expose the whole thing and understand it. the dude may be right --- we may have to place some kind of a hermetic seal around the whole decade.
but willful silence and blindness won't answer the questions or make the controversy go away.
but
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
forget it, repeat it
Herr 28, I guess you're not here to talk about the past, either. Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.
by 26thMan on Jan 21, 2006 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
i just
There's no resolution, just repitition.
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
If the truth came out
I think that's one of the reasons why suddenly MLB and MLBPA acted so swiftly to put a steroid "policy" in place. A lot of people in the baseball industry would rather move on rather than let this fester and expose the systemic complicity of MLB.
Bonds deserves to be in?
Did bonds hit 70 home runs in Pittsburg? Even when mcgwire was small, well smaller, he hit 47 his rookie season. Both bulked up. Both hit 70 after bulking up. I know Bonds had good numbers and mvp's in Pittsburg, but how can you justify voting in one and not the other. The last I knew the Cream and Clear that Bonds used WAS illegal and he DID use it. He used the ol' "i didn't know" which makes him look just as guilty as Mac's "i'm not here to talk about the past.
To me if Mcgwire doesn't get in neither does Bonds!
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
yes
by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Come on, Pete...
"Mac only juiced to help baseball."
Why do we continue to mythologize this guy? Do you actually think for one second that he thought: "I'm gonna cheat my way into the record books for the good of the game."
Heck, no, he didn't. He juiced because he was desperate to revive a flagging career, reasons just as selfish as the ones you ascribe to Bonds.
by 26thMan on Jan 21, 2006 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
oh....
by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
if...
by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Bonds & Mac-joined at the hip
Take Away the Records
My bigger concern is with the record books. Roger Maris and Babe Ruth had two of the most hallowed records in all of sports, and as far as I'm concerned, they still do.
The purpose of the Hall of Fame is to distinguish and honor greatness. I'll stipulate that McGuire was an extraordinary hitter. I have no real problem acknowledging that in the Hall.
But he wasn't the greatest hitter of all time--not without chemical enhancements. And that need for steroid driven enhancement makes him something less than Maris, and a lot less than Ruth. Obviously, the same goes for Sosa and Bonds.
That Sosa, Bonds, and McQuire were lesser hitters than Ruth simply is the truth. This truth should be acknowledged and should not get obscured by steriod-induced hallucinations.
That's why, regardless of who is immortalized in the Hall, the record book should be kept clear. I'm not suggesting asterisks. I'm suggesting a whole different chart--one for those amped up on 'roids, and one for those who achieved without the need for such contrivances.
We can't know for sure...
You can make the same argument for Bonds, IMO.
so based on what i'm hearing here
and it doesn't matter if a journalist, in his zeal to scoop the competition, invents a couple of "anonymous" sources to embellish an otherwise accurate story. go ahead and give the guy a pulitzer --- right?
and if a politician bends the rules to accept a few "harmless" favors from his rich lobbyist friends, and bends a few other rules to screw the political opposition, no need to hold him accountable at the ballot box---- right?
that's the drift of what i'm hearing. and i just don't agree with it.
Maybe this....
If you are a healty person, you don't need any extraordinary measures to keep you going. If you are sick, though, you need something beyond the ordinary to bring you back to your normal level, then you can go on with your life without that "something" that brought you back. I'm sure you're already there but: person = baseball; sick person = post-strike baseball; something beyond the ordinary = Home Run Chase fueled by steroids.
Pennant races, no-hitters, exciting rookies, and close games are fun, but still "ordinary" and perhaps wouldn't have done the trick. A two-man chase of one of the most hallowed records in sportsis fun, and definitely not ordinary.
by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
comparisons
- When a CEO or corporate board "cooks the books" to drive up stock prices, the result is direct injury to smaller investors unable to cash out before the price bottoms out. I fail to see how Mark McGwire caused direct injury to anyone by his alleged actions. Indirectly, yes, in that he and others contributed to an environment where more and more players reasoned that they'd need to be "juiced" in order to compete at the Major League level.
- Mark McGwire didn't pretend to hit 70 homeruns in 1998. The journalist example is one of a direct perpetration of fraud. McGwire at worst engaged in an indirect perpetration of fraud. We'll never know how many of those 70 in '98 were the result of alleged roid use, and how many would've been homeruns naturally. Still, McGwire hit 70 homeruns; he didn't fabricate any results.
- The politician example seems to me more appropriate. We should remind ourselves that McGwire in the late 90s was no ordinary major-leaguer - he and Sosa were the superstars and this did afford them much greater status and power. One gets the feeling that neither thought the rules applied to them as they did to others. We rightly should discuss McGwire's merits for the Hall in light of his apparent steroid use, but as I've said before on this thread, it's vital we understand the context of his apparent roid use as well.
well put
by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
mcgwire injured the other competitors
in the journalist example, i'm not suggesting that he reported an untrue story. i'm saying he really reported the story and got it right, but in the rush to be first he used a small "enhancement."
i totally agree with your final paragraph. big mac's use of steroids SHOULD be discussed in context. he should not be singled out as a pariah, nor should his accomplishments be completely dismissed. he was a GREAT hitter and probably would have been a deserving hall-of-famer had he never used steroids.
that's why i want so badly for him to talk and reveal his (high-profile) part of the story. the shame associated with a taboo evaporates when the taboo is exposed to the light of day. once we get the truth out there, this issue will no longer be so explosive or convtroversial.
mcgwire only hurts himself by refusing to talk. miklasz got it right.
123
- I still don't see a book-cooking CEO as being analagous to McGwire, et. al., but I concede that McGwire, et. al., if "juiced," unfairly hurt other teams and opposing pitchers' ERAs by any "juice-induced" HRs they hit off of them. (We rightly could even go so far as to say that these were monetary damages, in the sense that these pitchers' market value were negatively effected in a dishonest manner!)
- McGwire never, even in part, misrepresented his record, simply because it's impossible to claim hitting homeruns that you didn't hit. I'm arguing semantics here more than anything. Your point about enhancement is well taken.
- What I like about your politician example is that it illuminates by analogy the larger issue here with regard to McGwire, et. al. and performance enhancers. Just as we've come to find out about those folks inside the Beltway, MLB too had developed a certain kind of systemic "culture of corruption" but with regard to performance enhancers. It was common knowledge among those "on the inside," suspected by those "on the outside," but everyone sort of just let it go on as the money rolled in. You're right, LB, that the whole truth is what we (and Big Mac) need. Unfortunately, I think there are plenty of people involved in this throughout the baseball industry who'd rather the whole truth doesn't ever come out. If it did, much more than HOF eligibility for a half-dozen ballplayers would be at stake. Much better for the powers that be to pin this on a few "bad apples" supposedly acting independently rather than acknowledge the systemic causes and reinforcers of PED use.
Assumptions
Baseball is a game in which players are encouraged to "cheat." Doctor the ball, cork the bat, make the phantom tag, make the "vicinity play," hit players to intimidate them, go flying into second with your spikes up.
When Jeffrey Meier caught that home run ball off Jeter's bat, replays clearly showed that it was fan interference. I don't seem to remember that sportswriters sat around writing stories demanding that the Yankess forfeit that game, or that Jeter's homerun shouldn't "count." Players do what they have to do--legal or not--to win their games, and we all turn the other way, as long as the player is playing for our team. If our guy injures a second baseman trying to break up a double play--even if he isn't on the bag--we congratulate him on playing hard and being a gamer.
You can't have it both ways, folks. Do you really want to go back and change McGwires stats? Delete them from the record books? Are you going to go back and delete the stats of every racist player from the thirties and forties, because he didn't play against all the best players? Do the Cardinals, then, have to give up the 1946 World Series championship because Enos Slaughter was a racist? Do we delete Gaylord Perry's wins from the record book because he "probably" cheated in every one of them?
by Archaeopteryx on Jan 21, 2006 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Do we spite our saviors?
he Home Run Chase of 1998 wasn't just leading the sports pages, it was leading the front pages, nationwide. Could that have been done "naturally"? If not, then would baseball have been "saved"? Would we still be wallowing in the mire of post-strike malaise and pitied by hockey fans? Was the juiced-up home run derby of that summer a horrible, shameful event we should all view as a giant fraud, or was it absolutely necessary to resurrect this game?
I hope the HOF voters will consider all of this when they stare at McGwire's name on their ballot.
by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 3:16 PM EST reply actions
i think you're right that
i just don't think we should be celebrating that episode. we should be embarrassed by it
Agreed and
ditto
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
The real point, though
I'm not saying the game couldn't have done the same without the juiced years. Perhaps the natural appeal of the game would have won people back over. We'll never know, though.
by flynn on Jan 21, 2006 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Mac was no coward
Would ANYBODY have admitted doing somthing illegal in that situation---when "taking the fifth" would have spared you being charged with a crime?
It seems like McGwire has been vilified for not willingly walking into a lion's den and putting himself behind bars, when he was under no legal obligation to do so.
He had three choices: (1) Lie; (2) Tell the truth and then have Congress try to make an example out of him (and believe me they would've tried); or (3) take the fifth.
Leave the guy alone.
if he was there to exercise his legal rights
instead he attempted to cast his own self-preservation ---- which, i agree with you, he has every right to pursue --- as selflessness, viz "let's not talk about the past, let's talk about the future, i'm here to help, let's be positive and move forward."
if you're exercising a constitutional right to silence, then state it as such. don't try to pretty it up in euphemisms.
it's mcgwire's refusal to accept responsibility for his actions that is cowardly.
Andro
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 4:13 PM EST reply actions
McGwire and Bonds
numbers
by herr28 on Jan 21, 2006 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Amen
by vince eating tarp on Jan 21, 2006 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Betting is far worse
With a percentage of players bulking up off the field by using legal (and illegal) methods, the result of the game is still decided by players doing their all to win (just like Gaylord Perry did, with his spitball, etc.). While still objectionable to most fans, no one can argue that PED-fueled players are motivated to be the best baseball player they can be.
Players (or managers) who have money on a game's outcome (or spread) will intentionally alter the play on the field to achieve a result other than one that which provides the best chance of winning the game.
BIG MACs Yummy
by pistolpetereiser on Jan 21, 2006 7:03 PM EST reply actions
Lance Armstrong had testicular cancer,
Strictly speaking
by oldbirdwatcher on Jan 22, 2006 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
fuzzy math
His "per-season" (your phrase) averages of the numbers you state are 36 HR, 88 RBI and 73 R.
He played 16 seasons and lost a great deal of time to injury in the mid-1990s. Perhaps that helps explain how his numbers shot into the stratosphere starting in '95.
by 26thMan on Jan 22, 2006 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Mac
As far as Congress goes, again, it means nothing. You can make all the assumptions you want but your opinion doesn't matter. There was nothing wrong with McGwire's testimony. In fact, it is his right not to incriminate himself. Someone else has to prove he did it, and until that happens, tough crap.
Unless he comes out and admits he used steroids, then it will never be proven. In fact, for all any of you know he never did take any, you just make the choice to assume he did, when you could just as easily assume he didn't. Ever since this steroid issue hit the public, everyone has been looking for someone to crucify, with little regard to fact.
Facts:
- Without a confession, it cannot be proven Mac took 'roids.
- Even if he took them, there was no rule against steroids while he was an active player.
- His testimony to Congress does not prove anything, one way or the other.
- Mac hit 47 HR's as a skinny rookie in the late 80's.
Big Mac has always been a private guy, so it should come as no surprise that he isn't out holding press conferences everyday talking about 'roids. Even the whole deal with Congress, he took the easy way out, likely because he didn't want the attention, it just backfired. If he would have denied taking them, everyone would be calling him a liar. If he had admitted it, he would've caught hell for that too. So he just didn't say anything, probably because he knew he was screwed regardless.
It really is a shame, McGwire helped generate so much interest in baseball, and now he's been treated like garbage.
The point is, until it can be proven one way or the other (and it won't, ever) everyone should quit dragging McGwire's name through the mud.
Good day.
if he has nothing to be ashamed of
he has it within his power to get people like me to stop speculating --- just come out and be honest. after all that his fans have given him ---- fame fortune adulation etc etc --- he owes us that much.
i'm ready to listen whenever he's ready to talk. but i don't expect him to anytime soon.
Why is this debatable?
So now it is the issue of drug use, during an era when the same people had no backbone to even make it clearly against the rules. Were there no steroids, do they really think we are fools enough not to recognize dozens of other factors that also make it impossible to freely compare generations.
We have to suffer the differences of Haitian baseballs, monster gloves, lowered mounds, Astroturf, night-games, vanquished double-headers, indoor stadiums, altered strike zones, and 3rd generation lumber. Still worse we've permitted new parks with goofy walls, short porches, even flag poles inside the wall and hills. Not to mention that player's trainers now have sports medicine degrees instead of bartender certificates. The public is nonetheless capable of recognizing the players that were our heroes and became famous, in each of their respective eras. We are talking about a hall of fame.
Please spare me the notion that the sportswriters must now weigh the purity of the establishment by reconsideration of an era and the worthiness of a few, and they consider this monumental task on our behalf because they are sure that we are incapable.
Furthermore, when they tell us all they really want is the truth, they won't say when they need it or to what end. After McGwire has been inducted and is as old as Deep Throat, and all the players of that era have seen their last chance on the ballot go by, then perhaps we might hear another word. And what difference will it make.
Take the sportswriters off their high throne, and return to selection to a basis of performance between the lines and impact upon their respective era. And if there is a feature they don't like, perhaps they should lobby to change the rules, again.
by Birds on the Bat on Jan 22, 2006 2:08 AM EST reply actions
McGwire.......He didn't lie.
by musialfan on Jan 22, 2006 12:24 PM EST reply actions
Why stop at McGwire?
Do you think that there arent people in the Hall now who never took performance enhancing whatever during their career? Pushing the envelope is part of sports period. At this point, if you think the sports you're watching (and have been watching) are completely clean, then you're lying to yourself.
Steroids the worst
by vince eating tarp on Jan 22, 2006 2:30 PM EST reply actions
Betting
And how did we get to talking about Rose and gambling? It's funny how sometimes these discussions morph into other tangents.
by 26thMan on Jan 22, 2006 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
What should the HOF be?
1) There are a number of factors that skew the stats that help determine election to the hall, many of which have been commented upon. They include, among others, the changes in equipment over time, the training regimens (not including steroids), park characteristics, how pitchers are used, night baseball, who else is in your batting order, etc.
2) Perhaps the largest bias is the voting procedure. Since voters have 10 spots on the ballot, the outcome is determined by the 10 best players eligible in a given year, regardless of how they stack up against the whole of baseball history. This can work for or against a given player.
3) We can all list players in the hall whose personal history reflects cheating or other undesirable traits, and others whose baseball records are inferior to others who have been left out.
With these problems in mind, I ask myself what the hall should represent. If purity is to be considered, a lot of editing of the existing roster is needed. If the criterion is purely statistical, we can let computers make the picks. If we look only at who did the most to help his team win on the field, then we have to overlook a lot we don't like.
On another issue, I think cheating at sports does hurt the immediate participants by skewing the competition, but in the larger sense it hurts the fans more. The record book is already filled with stats that aren't reflective of reality--more doesn't help.
Wow
No, it's the crybaby non-denial he gave in DC that hurt me. He could have fessed up, he could have said no way, he could have pled the 5th. I would have been fine with any of those (even though I wouldn't have believed an outright denial). But watching him squirm and choke and cry and do everything in his power to somehow come off as the victim really diminished him in my eyes. Then when he hid behind his boy when he tore down his number at Busch--ouch! Another couple rungs down the ladder of respect.
On one hand, the whole world of baseball stats and rewarding accomplishments has been skewed and unfair from the start due to rascism. We still pretty much look at guys like Babe Ruth as the pinnacle, when it's a pretty sure bet there were black players who, if not better, would have certainly given him a run for the money. But the record books and the Hall go on. And I'd also bet my bottom dollar that Mac would be far from the first inductee whose performance was enhanced by one drug or another.
On the other hand, my disappointment with him on a personal level is hard to overcome. I want what LB wants--some sort of rehabilitation of his dignity. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen--at least till he's an old man, has his spot in the Hall, and knows it is permanent. Maybe not even then, cause really, what will then be the point (except to possibly make some more money with a tell-all book, which would negate anything positive for us fans anyway. This kind of book will happen regardless, I also believe.).
I suppose if I actually had a vote, I'd begrudgingly give it to him--but not for Mac personally. I'd end up voting him in simply because I don't believe holding him to a tougher standard than many who are there already is fair either. The numbers are what the numbers are and, ultimately, that's always been the standard. He's also a Cardinal, and as much as I hate to admit it, I'll let my boys in Red get away with damn near anything that isn't proven. And though you'd have to be a complete idiot at this point to believe he's innocent--well, that's America folks. Innocent till proven guilty. Especially for a Bird.
I'll never see him in the same way again. I'll never trust a word that comes out his mouth. I'll always be slightly embarrassed when he's brought up in a baseball conversation--but I'd give him his damn plaque.
Good point.
by Archaeopteryx on Jan 22, 2006 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
to me this is all about power
it's about the greed of owners, union execs, tv execs, agents, and yes players --- all of whom, in their pursuit of unseemly amounts of wealth, colluded to distort the game we all love.
old bird hit the nail on the head in his comment above --- when mcgwire cheated, he ultimately cheated you and me. he wasn't the only cheater, and he couldn't have gotten away with it without a lot of encouragement and a lot of help. but that doesn't absolve him.
and he compounds his cheating, and continues to insult the fans and the game, by holding himself above judgment.
that's not power; that's abuse of power.
again, he's hardly alone in doing it. but the corporate cheats and the political cheats in our country like to make the same excuse --- "everybody's doing it." that doesn't mean you let it slide.
power outage
When the fans speak with their wallets and not their voices, you will see change.
by pistolpetereiser on Jan 23, 2006 2:19 AM EST up reply actions
Dancing around the issue...
Baseball seems to have a real problem accepting cheating whether its corked bats, scuffed balls or steroids.
Not one word
LB has pretty much led the charge here for the "I want McGwire to speak out" crowd, which has many members. Well, the article I read in SI mentioned something about McGwire being ready and willing to go in to that Senate hearing and do just that. The problem, though, was that he had not been out of the game for five years, which left him still within the statute of limitations for persecution of his wrongs. McGwire, from what I what I read, requested immunity in exchange for his testimony, wasn't given it, and then decided to follow his lawyer's advice and resort to the feeble performance he ultimately turned in. I believe one quote in that story came from his lawyer, who said something like, "Had this been just one year later (with Mac being outside the statute of limitations period), things would have been much different."
Anyone else read that article in SI? I'm really surprised nobody else has mentioned it. If it is true then perhaps we can expect something from McGwire once the SOL passes. Who knows?
by flynn on Jan 23, 2006 10:10 AM EST reply actions
Fantasy Land: The Congressional Hearing
How about this possible scenerio for telling the truth: "Did you use steroids Mr. McGwire?" McGwire: "Well technically, I used some substances that weren't considered steroids at the time, but they are now. They were called "pre-cursors" at the time and weren't illegal or against any rules. I was always staying one step ahead of the law and about 100 steps ahead of major league baseball. I probably shouldn't have taken them, because I didn't know enough about them, but you can't imagine how frustrating it was to always be breaking down all the time. Hold on, that kid in the front row can't quite hear me, can we turn up this microphone? Anyway, I also was prescribed steroids by my doctor a couple of times (who hasn't) to get over a few baseball injuries. When my knuckles didn't get hairy and I didn't grow a third boob, I thought their might be some legal substances that could help me that may not be so bad for me. I may have got some bad advice on that, but what can you do. So yeah, I guess I have to answer yes to that, and I'd do it again to stay healthy. Oh yeah, there was this one time I ran a red light in college, and this one time in high school when I picked up a 5 fingered discount at a convenience store, and my accountant screwed up my taxes in 1997, and I paid a little bit less than I should have. Hopefully there is something in there that you can use to send me to jail. I'm really tired of this home life with my beautiful wife and kids."
as i said above
but if that's what you're doing, ie protecting your own interests, then don't pretend you're there to serve the public or the greater good. mcgwire tried, rather feebly, to do that.
take responsibility for your own actions, and others won't feel so compelled to hold you responsible themselves.
Face the Nation
Maybe McGwire lives in a world without blogs and talk radio and has no idea a select few in St. Louis hates him. Maybe he just wanted his newborn baby and kids to be a part of his life. How many people brought their famlies to pull down their number? 75%? Look at Edmonds, I don't think he realizes that their are 49 other states in the union when he's in California. What makes everyone so sure that McGwire had an alterior motive when pulling off the number? He probably just wanted them to get cheered like he once was. (And they were cheered, more than anyone else).
Personally, I think McGwire definitely took substances that are now considered illegal. I think he used every edge he could to get past the injury problems of his past. He may have crossed the grey line and taken something illegal when doing so (or he may not have). We will never know. I have zero proof that he did. He's in, make the rules better for the future and MOVE ON!



















