Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Nevin Shapiro Vows To Bring Down Miami

where they ain't II

some followup re yesterday's discussion of BABIP and luck:

first, jeff has another post up on the subject at Brew Crew Ball, this one showing which players undershot their career BABIP by the widest margins in 2005 -- the year's unluckiest hitters, if you will. none of the 29 guys on that list has hometown implications, altho a few (jacque jones, jose vidro, bret boone, eric byrnes) were real or hoped-for acquisition candidates.

once again jeff adds some empirical context to his post by looking back to 2004, listing that year's unluckiest hitters and tracking their performance into 2005 to see if their luck turned around. those results were not quite as one-sided as the outcomes for 2004's luckiest hitters (who, you'll recall, ran out of luck in 2005), but jeff offers a plausible explanation for that. i'll let you head over there to read it for yourself, check the data jeff presents, and form your own conclusions.

jeff also was generous enough to e-mail me a complete list of BABIP figures for the 2005 cardinals, with the team's offseason acquisitions tacked on as a bonus. the table includes not only each player's 2005 and career BABIPs, but also the percentage of at-bats that result in a BIP. it's a long list, so i'm not going to roll it into the post; click here if you want to check it out.

in the comments to yesterday's post, a number of readers questioned the notion that changes in a player's BABIP are necessarily the result of luck. why couldn't a higher BABIP reflect increased batting skill? a guy learns to take the slider the other way, and instead of grounding out to short he slaps singles to the opposite field; there's your increased BABIP. the guy didn't get lucky; he became a better hitter.

these kinds of adjustments take place all the time, right? even veteran hitters are constantly tinkering -- trying new stances, moving up on the plate, dropping their hands, shortening or lengthening their swings. and at the same time, pitchers and hitters are constantly adjusting to each other. the pitchers find they can jam a guy on hard stuff inside and pop him up, and they keep throwing it until the hitter adjusts and yanks a couple out of the park; then they change their approach, set him up for breaking balls low and away, and the hitter starts reaching for those and dribbling weak grounders; he eventually learns to look for those pitches and poke them down the line, which occasions yet another round of adjustments. this stuff never ends.

so couldn't variations in BABIP result from this natural ebb and flow, rather than blind luck? and my answer to that would be: absolutely. there are no doubt periods of time -- a week, a month, a whole season -- in which a given batter manages to stay a step ahead of the pitchers, make better and quicker adjustments, recognize pitches and patterns with more clarity than usual, and consequently hit the ball harder and better than he typically does. maybe that's what womack did in 2004; maybe it's what nunez did in 2005. or maybe they really were just lucky, and the ball had eyes for 'em one summer.

the question is whether such variations -- whether attributed to luck, adjustment, or god's will -- can produce sustained improvement in a batter's performance. and more to the point: can we find a way to distinguish sustainable improvement from the ephemeral kind? it's a more or less eternal question; get it wrong and you end up overpaying for tony womack or adrian beltre or (cough) tino martinez, or you hang onto a player a year too long or get rid of him a year too soon. nobody can get these things right with 100 percent certainty, but is there a way to improve the odds?

that's what jeff is asking with his BABIP stuff: does it give us a means to more reliably distinguish sustainable improvement from fleeting spikes in performance? maybe it does; maybe it's one of a range of tools (along with k rates, batted-ball data, jc bradbury's prOPS) that can help teams make better decisions in this regard. keep in mind that jeff is only looking at the margins of the spectrum -- the top and bottom 5 percent. BABIP might not be a useful benchmark for 90 to 95 percent of the hitters in a given year. it will be interesting to see how the ~60 players on jeff's luckiest/unluckiest lists for 2005 fare in 2006.

Comment 31 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

on improvement
i think BABIP is a useful indicator when paired with other measuring stats. Derrek Lee for instance was obviously luckier (cards fan talking there) but he also improved by striking out fewer times (rational fan, and reducing K can largely be attributed to skill over luck). Lee whiffed about twenty fewer times in '05. That of course doesn't account for the jump to .335 from career .275, but it does indicate some improvement.

Never under estimate the sway luck carries in the whole gosh darned cosmic scheme of things. Maybe I spent too much time with Godot, but randomness effects even baseball.

la vie es absurd...or something like that

by Ryan Van Bibber on Jan 18, 2006 9:16 AM EST reply actions  

Those 20 fewer K's
result (more or less) in 20 more balls in play (not counting HRs) for Lee, so assuming he has a .300 BABIP, that's 6 more hits right there over the same number of total AB, which makes his OVERALL BATTING AVERAGE go up---and reflects whatever newfound skills or "hotness" he may have---but his batting average on balls in play IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

In other words, BABIP might very well show little variance when a hitter is actually improving.

That's how, for instance, Jim Edmonds can be monstrously hot (or cold) and his BABIP may be relatively unchanged.

It's also why a very high (compared to one's norm) BABIP is a red flag (not necessarily an indisputable fact) that a hitter has, in fact, been getting lucky. Like 2005's Abe Nunez, or Juan Encarnacion.

by salvomania on Jan 18, 2006 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

good example s'mania
just to amplify it:

start with a base of 600 at-bats and 165 hits, a .275 average. assume his career-norm BABIP is .300.

now sprinkle an extra 30 at-bats into the season. in scenario A they're 30 strikeouts; the guy's line reads 165 / 630, a .262 average. since strikeouts don't count as BIP, the hitter's BABIP remains .300.

in scenario B, those extra 30 at-bats are balls in play. 9 of them fall for hits (his normal .300 BABIP); the guy's line reads 174 / 630, a .276 average.

another example: start with the same base (165 / 600). now sprinkle 10 at-bats throughout the year. in scenario A he gets 3 hits in 10 at-bats, his ordinary BABIP; final line reads 168/610, still a .275 average.

in scenario B, those 10 at-bats are all home runs. since HR don't count as balls in play, his BABIP remains unchanged; but his batting line is 175 / 610, a .287 average.

in both cases, the overall BA increases while the BABIP remains unchanged --- but there are concrete, easily identifiable changes in the batter's line (increased power, more frequent contact) that tell us the batter has improved his ability, rather than simply gotten lucky.

by lboros on Jan 18, 2006 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Marquis
I'm surprised you haven't said anything about Jason Marquis signing his deal.  He's a good pitcher but the fact that he'll be making more in 2006 than Chris Carpenter is just silly.

by I Bleed Cardinal Red on Jan 18, 2006 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

Surprised too
I too was wondering what the Marquis comment would be today.  It is silly that he is making more than Carp, but I also think that it isn't a bad deal.  To get a guy who will likely give over 200 innings with a league avg. (or slightly under) ERA for under $8 mil THIS year is a good thing.  I am ready for him to have a breakout year!

by sdelek on Jan 18, 2006 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

re marquis
i always figured he'd be in the range of $4.5m - $5m, simply because of the way arbitration works. he signed for slightly higher than that, reflecting the inflated market for pitchers this off-season, but the contract is well within reason given his 2005 salary ($3m), his service time, and his performance last year.

by lboros on Jan 18, 2006 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

contracts only make "sense"
..when viewed in context.

A young guy on a certain career path who's arb-eligible will almost always see a hefty raise, which may ("fairly" or not) propel him past others more deserving of big bux. Everyone in the system understands it; Dontrell just signed rcently for $4.35 million, still $800K less than Marquis; is it because Marquis is better? No--it's because Marquis is at a stage in his progression that allows for a bigger payday.

Same with Carp--being derailed by injuries knocked him back in salary, and he has to work his way back up. Maybe not "fair," but it's how the system works, and everybody in the system---Carp included---understands that.

by salvomania on Jan 18, 2006 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

eh...
but if Carp has another year like this one, then his next contract will be for Randy Johnson/Pedro Martinez money anyway.  He might have priced himself off of the Cardinals with his comeback.

by Valatan on Jan 18, 2006 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah,
we dump Mulder, give the salary to Carp then replace Mulder's spot with "work-in-progress' dreck (next off-season's Ponson, etc.). Works like a charm.

by salvomania on Jan 18, 2006 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

carps contract
was renegotiated this summer

2 years/$13M (2006-07), plus incentives & $8M 2008 club option, he could make $17 if he hits all his incentives.

he's going to be around for at least another 3 y, so I'm not worried about it-yet.

by erik on Jan 18, 2006 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

BABIP
Basically these formulas key in on the "flip a coin effect".  Over enough time it will be 50/50, but some times you flip the dang thing 20 times and get 20 heads.  Put a round ball onto a round bat and luck is bound to be a part of it somewhere.  I believe these are good tools to gauge certain abnormalities in a hitter from year to year, and I think you are right, the more extreme the spike, the more it may show up.  I'd give the numbers a look if I were about to invest money in someone who had a career year.  Or on the other hand, searching for a bargain
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jan 18, 2006 1:16 PM EST reply actions  

sheehan on cards
Sheehan has a BP notebook up of recent Cards moves.  No suprises that haven't been covered here in detail (Encarnacion bad, Ponson cheap/maybe good, Cards win 90+ etc).

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4712

Personally I think Bigbie has more upside than Sheehan does.  I still think he may have a 20/20 season in him.

And as a side note let me say how much I enjoy the annual off-season rite of passage where we get to read this:

"I still go to spring training with the same attitude I took five years ago: I want to make the team," he said following a two-hour autograph session at the Cardinals Winter Warm-Up.?

 "It sounds stupid because people think I'm on this team, but that's not for sure. There's somebody in the minor leagues who wants to take that job from me just like I did in 2001," Pujols said.

Ah, Pujols.  You're so friggin' awesome.

by demetre on Jan 18, 2006 2:35 PM EST reply actions  

and...
before anyone derides my Bigbie comment.  

Let me say its just a hunch.

Bigbie had all the upward marks of an improving young player before his recent slide.  A fresh start in STL may be just what he needed.

After all, anyone who thought the Eckstein would be the 10th best SS in MLB going into 2005 would have been labeled ceritifiably insane.

by demetre on Jan 18, 2006 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

if you go by Win Shares
the Hardball Times has Eckstein as the most valuable SS in the majors.  I doubt even David's family saw that coming.

by Hummingbird on Jan 18, 2006 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

i won't
deride your Bigbie comment. I went to the Card Caravan in Davenport, and a fan asked him about it. He said he was in a lot of pain but tried to play through it. I can't remember what sorta injury he was dealing with

here's my hOPS for bigbie, meaning hunch ops-.782 in around 450ab's

by erik on Jan 18, 2006 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Yer tellin me
that per Win Shares, Hardball Times has Eckstein ahead of Miggy??!!??

I think that says more of their ratings than about how good Eckstein may or may not be...

by salvomania on Jan 18, 2006 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Something smells fishy on that site...
They have Eck with 28 win shares, ahead of pretty much every player in baseball (he's 19th in all of MLB), ahead of Tejada, Travis Hafner, Vlad, etc. etc.

But curiously enough, Eck only has, according to this site, 80 career win shares, meaning that he's averaged 13 a year prior to this year---then all of a sudden he gets 28. (was his 2005 that much better than his 2001-02?)

The key seems to be Eck's defense in 2005: somehow it's worth 7.0 win shares---the 15th most in all of baseball, and none of the 14 ahead of him have as many offensive win shares.

I love the guy, but these ratings just seem off to me...

by salvomania on Jan 18, 2006 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

his range factor was off the charts
in 2005 because the cardinal pitching staff was so groundball-oriented. combine that with all those double plays the cards turned (and eck was a party to a lot of them), and that probably accounts for his high defensive w.s. total.

by lboros on Jan 18, 2006 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm guessing his
high BAw/RISP has something to do with it. a disclaimer on Win Shares on THT-

"Add these up, and you can see that Win Shares are a great player comparison tool. I like using them for Hall of Fame discussions, or MVP arguments. Also, they're good for contract evaluations. Conversely, they're not well-suited for evaluating a player's true talent, so they're also not good for forecasting a player's or team's future performance."

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2004-win-shares-have-arrived

by erik on Jan 18, 2006 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Put another way..
Defensive WS measures what a player has done, not what they are capable of...

(http://www.baseballgraphs.com/main/index.php/site/details/)
"The [defensive win share] calculations differ for each position. Essentially, James has selected four defensive statistics to evaluate positions. Here they are by position, listed in order of importance... Shortstops: Assists, Double Plays, Errors and Putouts"

I guess it would be a bit like comparing the hitting of players only knowing hits, walks, strikeouts and homeruns. (and not knowing at bats)  

by Zubin on Jan 19, 2006 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Or maybe not...
"Second, these stats are calculated as a proportion of the team's total, divided by the league-average proportions of the total. In other words, if a shortstop has 50 assists and his team has 100 assists in total, he receives just as much credit as the shortstop who has 100 assists and plays on a team with 200 assists in total. This is important, because it adjusts the fielding stats for the fact that fielders may be playing behind pitchers with certain tendencies such as giving up more ground balls vs. fly balls."

I'll go home now.  I am confused.

by Zubin on Jan 19, 2006 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah,
Win Shares are a confusing beast, and I'd be lying if I said I understood them completely.  And yes, the metric has flaws.  But please keep in mind that I never said "Win Shares says he's the best SS in baseball," only that Win Shares--one metric--has him as the most valuable SS in baseball in 2005.  Even the seamiest of seamheads wouldn't say that Eckstein is a better player than Tejada (or Furcal, or Young, or whatever)--but did he have a more valuable 2005 than those guys?  Well, that's more arguable.  Still wrong, perhaps, but arguable. A dissenting opinion can be found at Baseball Prospectus, which has, e.g., Tejada with 7.6 WARP-1 and David with 5.6.

My original point was just to say that if anyone had predicted, pre-2005, that David Eckstein would even be in the running for 'most valuable SS in baseball,' he or she would have been quickly sent to the puzzle factory.

by Hummingbird on Jan 19, 2006 7:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I just wanna point out
that it was probably less than 6 months ago what Pujols wasn't running out ground balls and smacking the media for calling him on it.

I love the guy, but he ain't perfect.

by sdrone on Jan 19, 2006 9:00 AM EST up reply actions  

a more accurate way to figure out...
a player's luck would be to split up the BABIP into categories. For example, a player would have more luck if his BABIP on ground balls is higher than his norm, and if it were higher on line drives it may be more indicative of a better hitter. Any thoughts?

The Cardinal Curmudgeon

by lawman3842 on Jan 18, 2006 7:30 PM EST reply actions  

you're absolutely right.
and I'm just taking it one step at a time here...until retrosheet comes out with their 2005 data, I won't have a good way to harvest 2005 gb/fb/ld data, though I could go back and do it for previous years.  
Daily Brewers Blog: http://www.BrewCrewBall.com

by jeffbcb @ Viva El Birdos on Jan 18, 2006 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't realize...
that there were stats coming on that issue. Sounds like a fairly accurate study anyway, however, since the BABIP and prOPS findings are pretty consistent.

by lawman3842 on Jan 19, 2006 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

the prOPS system
does that very thing ----- it compares a player's actual batting line to a normative line based on that player's distribution of line drives / fly balls / ground balls.

by lboros on Jan 18, 2006 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

So What
Will we be able to tell if Jenc's increased number of singles from '04 to '05 was due to more bloopers dropping in by luck, or some acquired skill (potentially retained) to convert pop-outs to line drive singles?
Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jan 19, 2006 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Haren added
to team USA's roster for the WBC.  Why isn't Mulder on the list?

by elderj on Jan 19, 2006 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hahaha_small
These were a few of my favorite things (fink reminisces about the 2011 regular season)
N1046613005_8392_small
Our 2010-2011 strays
649494__1__small
Hall of WAR: Part 2

Recent FanPosts

St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinal Managers EVER!
Dsc01844_small
Cardinals take the Governor's Joplin Challenge, will help build 35 homes for torando victims
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals of All-Time - Relief Pitching Edition
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals of All-Time - Starting Pitching Edition
Small
Two Trades That Set the Cards Back in the 70s
Nyc_small
Cardinals Offense vs. Reds Offense - 2012
Nyc_small
Cardinals Rotation vs. Reds Rotation - 2012
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals by Position - Center Fielders

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny__1__small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bendermad_small azruavatar

Trigun_001_small the red baron

Images_small tom s.

Authors

1989_bgh_cropped_small bgh

Valverde_medium_small vivaelpujols