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Around SBN: Nevin Shapiro Vows To Bring Down Miami

values voter

i'll be posting kinda light the next coupla days; getting ready to head home tomorrow and pay my farewell respects to busch. i'll be at sunday's finale vs the mets and all three games against the pirates -- games 9, 8, 7, and 6 on the countdown. if all goes well, my three-year-old boy samuel will accompany me to sunday's game; let that be a clue to whomever should happen to attend monday's game and find the seat in front of him/her caked in play-doh and sparkle glue.

i fly home with the kidz tomorrow and have a deadline to slay today, so this'll be quick -- not that it would take much time to sum up last night's game anyway. chris carpenter's good, albert pujols is good, life is good.

brian gunn and i exchanged opinions on the mvp race in yesterday's comments. i argued that albert's a clear winner over derrek because the two players are basically equal statistically, and both way ahead of the field -- but one guy's team is 20 games ahead of the other's the standings. to me, that's meaningful. it is less so to brian; he argued that the mvp is an indidivual award and recognizes individual achievement, so leave the teams out of it. we ended up agreeing that our diff'nces are mainly a matter of taste. brian's basic point is that lee has a damn good case, at least as good as albert's, and shouldn't be penalized because he has the bad luck to play on a badly constructed and badly managed team.

that's a legitimate and widely held point of view but i respectfully disagree. to me, the mvp award celebrates more than the individual player who receives it; it celebrates the game. it's an emblem of excellence; hence the bias toward guys who play for winners. that bias can be misplaced, but in pujols' case i think it's fitting. recognizing him would be a way of recognizing the cardinals as a group, the way they play the game -- their intelligence, their consistent effort, their team-oriented play. we recognize all those qualities in pujols in part because of the context in which he plays; the team reflects well upon him. derrek lee may have all the same attributes, but they're masked because of the team he plays on.

which goes back to my point -- if you recognize lee, you're only recognizing killer statistics and outstanding individual achievement. if you recognize pujols, you're celebrating those things but also something larger.

i'll be accused of simply having a hometown bias, and maybe that's all this is about. but in '98 i opposed big mac's mvp candidacy in part because his pursuit of maris's record relegated team objectives to a lower order of importance. tony altered the lineup to get mcgwire extra at-bats, and other players -- jordan and lankford, mainly -- were assigned the secondary role of providing "protection" for mcgwire -- his goons, not his teammates. mcgwire may have had the best individual stat line that year; but as a symbol, as an emblem of how to play the game . . . .  well, we know a lot more about mcgwire now than we did then. sosa, too.

my opinion is that the award isn't just about value; it is also about values, the things we admire in the game. to me, there's as much to admire in how albert plays the game as there is in his stat line.

game thread later today.

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Regardless of your voting style,
McGwire was so much better than Sosa that year that, unless you absolutely will not vote for a player on a team that doesn't make the playoffs, it was ridiculous not to vote for him. In VORP: 114.5 to 78.2. There were also Barry Bonds and Craig Biggio to consider.

by DanUpBaby on Sep 9, 2005 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

It all
boils down to one thing, and one thing only...the writers. They all have their own agendas, statistics be damned. To wit: last weekend, on the WB11 broadcast, Rick Horton relayed a conversation he had with the P-D's Joe Strauss. Horton argued that the award should go to the player who had the best overall season, and Strauss retorted that the writers invented the award, so they'll vote for whoever they want.

by cardsrul on Sep 9, 2005 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

but i think they SHOULD
vote for whoever they want. it was conceived as a subjective award, to honor the guy who --- in the voters' judgment --- contributes the most value. the voters' judgment often produces a different conclusion than the sabrmetric formulae, but so what? let's invent a separate award to recognize the best player as measured by Win Shares or VORP or what have you. those metrics have their own biases anyway, they're just different from the voters'. and in the end, they are as much an abstraction as any other expression of "value."

by lboros on Sep 9, 2005 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

ditto
i agree with you here, larry, at least to an extent.  the mvp award is given out by the BBWAA.  we can all debate their choices, and we can chime in with alternatives, but at the end of the day it's their award and they can give it to whomever they want for whatever reason they want.  in fact, i think if you're going to make the argument that team play and clubhouse demeanor are important ingredients in voting, then the writers are, in fact, the BEST people to do the choosing because they're the ones who work behind the scenes and know the players off the field.  i certainly don't think we should just hand out the award to the guy with the highest VORP or the most Win Shares -- that would be a huge caricature of my position.  but i do think that if you're going to make subjective arguments about a player there should be evidence -- even subjective, anecdotal evidence -- to support that claim.  as much as BBWAA writers can drive me up a wall, they're frequently the best ones to make that kind of case.

(however, i'm still with danup re: '98 -- no way sosa's chest thumps and wind-sprints to right field can trump big mac's devastating productivity.  and the argument that lankford and jordan were reduced to goons next to mcgwire is an odd one to me.  if anything, those guys were helped by having big mac on base so much and/or looming on the on-deck circle.)

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Sep 9, 2005 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

in my recollection
(admittedly imperfect), there was great anxiety that the lack of production behind mcgwire would cost him the record; teams would simply pitch around him. the implication being that jordan/lankford (or whomever else batted cleanup) had a duty to produce, not for the sake of the team but for the sake of mcgwire's glory.

mcgwire hit 15 homers that september during garbage time, after the cards were all but eliminated from postseason contention. he hit 5 in the last three days, in what were essentially exhibition games; three came against pitchers just up from AAA. in considering the "value" a player contributes, it makes no sense to me to weight those hrs equally with hrs hit in meaningful games.

but that's just me; that's my judgment call. every voter, every fan, is going to weight it differently. in the end, the mvp voting is like a figure skating competition. there are certain compulsories that have to be passed, and degrees of difficulty that have to be met, but ultimately it comes down to the eye of the beholder. people often scream that the judges aren't fair, and sometimes they aren't ---- depending of course on which pair of eyes is judging the judges . . .

by lboros on Sep 9, 2005 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

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