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Game 109 Open Thread: August 5, 2005

most fans i know are sick of the braves -- bobby cox, the tomahawk chop, jimmy carter, ted turner, the whole bit. they're even sick of jane fonda, who jumped ship five or six years ago. i gotta say, i'm just the opposite. long live that franchise. their division rivals spend and spend in an effort to catch them, while the braves lose one guy after another to free agency or injury. but they keep winning because they are superior evaluators of talent; they have the best manager, the most resourceful gm, and the most productive farm system. how can you not love an organization like that?

to be perfectly honest, i admire their approach more than i do the cardinals'. we basically have an off-the-rack team -- three starters acquired as free agents (sanders, grudz, and eckstein), one soon-to-be free-agent acquired in trade and retained for free-agent-like dollars (rolen), and one overpriced superstar acquired from a floundering franchise in a salary dump (walker). the rotation has two free agents (carp and supps) and one salary-dump acquisition (mulder). the closer? free agent. setup man? free agent. the only homegrown players with meaningful roles on our team are albert, yadi, and mattmo.

contrast that with the braves: their entire starting infield (laroche giles furcal and chipper) is homegrown. their current outfield (langerhans andruw and francouer) is entirely homegrown too. so is most of their bench. they have two homegrown starting pitchers (ramirez and smoltz), plus a third (davies) who has made 13 starts this year filling in for injured teammates.

those of you who can remember all the way back to the 1980s may recall that, in those days, we cardinal fans took pride in having a homegrown team. seemed like at least half the lineup had come up through the system -- hernandez, herr, oberkfell, forsch, stuper; later pendleton, coleman, van slyke, mathews, magrane, worrell. and there were others -- mcgee, lapoint, dayley, to some extent ozzie -- who were products of other organizations but whom we could claim as our own because their careers took off here; they'd been trapped in the minors or hadn't established themselves in the majors, then blossomed in st louis.

we considered this type of roster assembly to be morally superior to the write-a-check approach taken by franchises like the yankees, angels, and hated mets. those teams simply threw money at problems, while the cardinals had to rely on superior talent evaluation and on-field managing. we earned our success, in other words; other teams tried to buy theirs.

one of those spending-spree franchises back then was the braves,
which 21 years ago raided the cardinal roster to sign bruce sutter to a multiyear contract worth the then-obscene sum of, like, $6 million. sutter immediately got hurt, while the cards rolled to 101 wins in their first season without him -- and we took it as a vindication of the cards' approach. doubly so because our division rivals that year were the free-spending mets, whose lineup included two splashy free agents: george foster and gary carter.

the mets haven't changed -- probably never will, as long as they have to compete with steinbrenner. but the braves and cardinals have switched poles. atlanta now brings guys up through the system; we whip out the checkbook. used to be the other way around.

that doesn't mean i am switching allegiances; no way. but i appreciate what the braves have achieved, and how they've achieved it.


mulder             smoltz
12-5, 3.91        12-5, 2.66

0 recs  |  Comment 15 comments

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Hear...Hear....
The Braves are THE best story in baseball this year.   This week I tried to find Scout's Honor, the book about their farm system that is being billed as the anti-money ball, but the local shops didn't have it.  

My only knock against the Braves are their fans.  Once had someone explain to me that Atlanta is a city of transients, that everyone there is from somewhere else.  But, with them always being on television, you would think that they would draw some fans from the South.   (2003 only 14th in attendance and 16th in % capacity.  I pulled these numbers for another diary I'm constructing.)

Oh well, that just means I'll have to go there should the Cards and Braves face each other in the NLCS.  

Oh and the tomahawk chop is LAME!  

by Brock20 on Aug 5, 2005 6:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My ex-girlfriend
is a huge Braves fan(I know, I know; how could I?) so when our boys played each other, we went to our respective corners, lol. And no, that's not why we're exes...
Anyway, the Braves have the best farm system in MLB, and have for years, and Scheurholz knows talent when he sees it. Their AAA affiliate, Richmond, is only 2 hours north of me, their high single-A team(Myrtle Beach) is in the Carolina League, and one of the Rookie teams is just south of me in Danville, so I'm well aware of that talent. Sometimes I wonder why the Cards couldn't have gotten some of these guys, and then I realize that it speaks volumes about the two scouting departments.

by cardsrul on Aug 5, 2005 6:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nitpick...
Remember Doyle Alexander?  (The guy who was traded to Detroit for, among others, John Smoltz...)

As I say, it's a nitpick... the Braves have done a remarkable job adjusting from the free-spending Turner era to the bottom-line AOL era.

by The Ol Goaler on Aug 5, 2005 7:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I know I'm a bad sport,
but the Braves suck. They never (okay, one time they did) win. These idiots have a lock on full-time national television broadcasts, and they refuse to use any of that money on the team. How does that make sense?

So, yeah, their farm system is something else, but their fans are a yearly embarrassment to baseball. (What's with empty seats at the NLCS?!)

And, yeah, I'm not being objective. (I still remember '96.) There are only a few teams that I actively root against. The Braves are one of 'em. Man, I hope we beat these losers . . .

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Aug 5, 2005 10:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't like the Braves either
I admire, respect, and even like some people/players affiliated with their organization, but I never liked them as a team. Perhaps it's because I'm sick of hearing about them, but I really don't know why. But I don't like fads and the Braves always seem to be the latest fad.

I never liked Chipper Jones, who seems like a perfect fit for my perspective of the Braves (i.e. arrogant and cocky.) It didn't surprise me when J.D. Drew ended up in Atlanta, because he seemed like a nice fit as well.

Whatever it is, I get up for games against the Braves like I do for the Yankees. The only team I like less than the Braves is probably Houston.

by rob is back on Aug 6, 2005 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

chipper (larry) jones
When my brother was about 8 or 9 years old, he got into this kick of writing letters to his favorite ballplayers one of whom, was Chipper Jones.  About two weeks later, my brother got a letter back (albeit a form letter) and a personalized autograph on a Chipper Jones baseball card.  So yeah, the guy may be arrogant and cocky, but he was nice enough to personalize an unsolicited autograph to a little kid.

Mind you, this hasn't stopped me from chanting LAAARRRYYY!  LAAAARRRYYYY! whenever I'm at the game and he's up to bat.

matty fred is a weblog.

by matty fred on Aug 6, 2005 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So he has a good publicist?
Just kidding around. On a more serious note, I have no idea if he's actually cocky or not. He just looks that way to me and it gives me another reason to dislike the Braves. I really shouldn't judge people like that, but it's easy for me to do when I already dislike him for always playing so well against the Cardinals. He may be a fine person, but I'll likely never know either way and so I should keep my piehole shut.

by rob is back on Aug 6, 2005 6:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So Mulder Outpitched Smoltz....
and by a considerable margin, viewing the game thru my low-def FSN feed... Why is it when people talk about somebody being an "Ace," some snarling, fire-balling strikeout pitcher is always the template they have in mind?  Heck, even Clemens doesn't rely on his fastball as his "out" pitch anymore... it's the slider or the splitter (which, I admit, LOOKS like the fastball until it darts under one's bat at the plate.)

So maybe Mulder doesn't blow everybody away... he still gets people out, and was one fielding decision (his own) from seven innings of shutout ball.  Okay, mayne not "Ace" material, but plenty good enough for me!

Oh, one other thing...

Albert Pujols is the BEST hitter I've seen in a Cardinal uniform since Stanley Frank Musial.  PERIOD!

by The Ol Goaler on Aug 6, 2005 12:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was just reading
about Mulder having a 2.05 era over his last eight starts. And he's now tied with Livan Hernandez for the fourth most wins in the NL. I think he's been better than people have been giving him credit for being.

by rob is back on Aug 6, 2005 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That
Pujols kid is gonna be pretty good someday....

by cardsrul on Aug 6, 2005 12:39 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A few reasons for dislike
  1. Familiarity breeds contempt - While the game has changed during free agency, Chipper Jones keeps on being a Brave. That consistency is important to disliking a team, as there can be plenty of history and bad memories created in that uniform that aren't diminished with a move to the other league, etc.
  2. The Careys - Skip, Chip, Zip, Pip and Don Sutton have a style that's easy to find fault in if you're looking for that sort of thing. Everyone can do a good Skip Carey ("Greg Maaaadux on the mound ...") and his son's history with the Cubs doesn't necessarily make things easier on casual fans. Pet peeve - Chip talks using "we" when referring to the organization when this is his first year behind the mic there.
  3. Good, better, best - It'd be easier to respect the Braves if they made moves that made them the team to beat in the playoffs. The diminished payroll has lead to Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi sightings before their Georgia high school minor leaguers took their big steps. Everyone respects the coaching, but I would say most people think they needed a few things at the trade deadline to make them a World Series contender, and the Farns isn't it (good complementary part, but not when Reitsma is so untested). It just feels like they'll be happy losing to a charging wild card team again.
I've gone on too long. Those are my reasons :-)
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." - Jim Bouton

by WillieMcGeeModelingCompany on Aug 6, 2005 12:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

way to beat 'em up tonight
The Cards started this series off right, roughing up Smoltz and the Braves' bullpen.

I agree that the Braves' success is remarkable this year.  Schuerholz (sp?) is as smart and shrewd as they come.  No joke, the Kyle Farnsworth acquisition may turn out to be the highest-impact acquisition of the trade deadline.  Nobody doubt's the guy has talent, and if anybody can harness that talent and make it productive, it's the Braves' pitching coaches.

Though I haven't picked up a copy of Scout's Honor yet, the reviews I read have been mixed.  Several critics consider the book's anti-"Moneyball" arguments to be of the straw man variety.

Still, it's apparent without reading Scout's Honor that the Braves have an excellent and thorough player acquisition and development plan that's followed organization-wide.  Pretty damn impressive, especially considering so many wealthier teams like the Mets continue to fall short.  Not only could one learn from the Braves how to run a major league ballclub, one could also learn some great lessons on how to run a large organization in general.

matty fred is a weblog.

by matty fred on Aug 6, 2005 12:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Now that
was a good old-fashioned asswhoopin! Did yas all love that game or what? Mulder looked in command again first time in awhile--he's been winning, of course, and winning is winning, but he really seemed to have confidence in himself again, which made me confident in his ability to beat Smoltz. And he did--with a little help from the usual suspects--Jed, Eck, Abe, Gooch (!) And how bout that Albert? Damn. How sweet would it be if the boys went on a good tear this month instead of just getting by?  

by rockin redbird on Aug 6, 2005 1:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Let's hear it for the backups!
One of which, Abraham Nunez, is 3rd among 3b's in NRAA (Net Runs Above Average) behind A-Rod and Ensberg.  Props to Jim Leyland and Jock.  
matty fred is a weblog.

by matty fred on Aug 6, 2005 2:21 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Winning breeds contempt as welll.....
The Braves are ALWAYS in the post season, so I think  that contributes to our dislike.  Also, a wise man once said you hate what you fear, and I think that is the case with the Astros and the Braves.  They have strong teams so we fear them.  Remember when we used to hate the Mets?  Do you hate them now?  Maybe a little residual hate, but that's it.  

by Brock20 on Aug 6, 2005 9:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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