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rostermania Ia: giles variations

the yankees may get into the bidding for brian giles, arresting news for any other team that might want him. not clear how strong the bronxers' interest is; the new york daily news reports hideki matsui is the team's top priority and slated for a corner-outfield slot. "If the Yanks re-sign Matsui but don't want to use him regularly in center," the news muses, "then it's unlikely they would pursue Giles further."

i'm getting more comfortable with the idea of a high-dollar giles signing -- a sensible move for the short-term, and not necessarily a bad long-term acquisition. let's just say for sake of the discussion that he can be had for 3 years, $30 million. for 2006 the cards would be extremely top-heavy, with four 8-digit salaries (pujols rolen edmonds giles) in the everyday lineup. but assuming they let edmonds go elsewhere in 2007, the cards would be back down to three mega-contracts, which is about what they've carried every year since 2003. as for giles' age -- yes he'll be 35, but he had a 1.008 ops away from petco last year, and his obp has topped .400 in 6 of the last 7 years; his career low in the category is .368. can't think of a better player to hit second behind eckstein and ahead of pujols edmonds and rolen. by the end of his deal he'll be 37 years old, but even if his slugging has dipped to .450 by then (and i doubt it will) he should still be getting on base enough to be a big offensive contributor.

that said, i think a giles signing would work best if the cardinals paired it with an attempt to get younger and cheaper in the other vacant outfield slot -- ie, no sanders, as postulated in the default roster i roughed out last friday. there are various ways they might go about that, the easiest being to platoon taguchi and rodriguez in left field, with gall and luna (and mabry if re-signed) picking up some at-bats there too. the cards did much the same in 2004, entering the season with a medley of lankford cedeno and marlon anderson; that worked out alright. with the savings, the cardinals could beef up the bullpen:

GILES VARIATION #1: LF MEDLEY

EVERYDAY BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
taguchi of
$1m
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
luna if
$350K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
gordon rhp
$4.5m
grud'k 2b
$2.5m
gall 1b-of
$320K
suppan rhp
$4m
eyre lhp
$3m
rolen 3b
$11m
schumaker of
$320K
an reyes rhp
$320K
flores lhp
~$500k
eckstein ss
$3.5m
stinnett c
$650k
marquis
$4.5m
thompson rhp
$350K
rodriguez lf
$350K
seabol 3b
Memphis
wainwright
Memphis
ty johnson lhp
$320K
edmonds cf
$9.5m
duncan 1b
Memphis
cali lhp
$320K
giles lf
$10m
lincoln rhp
still rehabbin
TOTAL
$51.5m
TOTAL
$2.6m
TOTAL
$21.3m
TOTAL
$17.5m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $93m

this looks like the best of the giles variations to me (there are more after the jump) -- ie, it looks the most to me like a competitive playoff roster. and by keeping marquis and wainwright on the roster, the cards retain what little trade leverage they possess for the midseason deadline. little is said of lhrp scott eyre but he's that most prized of talents, a reliable left-handed reliever; the yankees will surely be bidding, but since LOOGY acquisitions don't make the back page of the post the boss is unlikely to red-flag the pursuit. however, note that the cards' bottom line in this scenario exceeds jocketty's putative budget by $3 million -- ie, the amount of the putative eyre contract. even if they skimp in left field, the cards will have to flex if they want both giles and a better bullpen.

another possibility, much discussed during the the weekend thread, would be to offer one or more pitchers for somebody like vernon wells or kevin mench.

Star-divide

i'm going to plug in mench simply because i think he's the most readily available; while his value is debatable (see danup's analysis for the case against mench), he is a 20-something outfielder with some power -- a talent the cards need more right now than a pouty, pricey 4th/5th starter:

GILES VARIATION #2: MENCH

EVERYDAY BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
taguchi of
$1m
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
luna if
$350K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
mota rhp
$3m
grud'k 2b
$2.5m
gall 1b-of
$320K
suppan rhp
$4m
eyre lhp
$3m
rolen 3b
$11m
rodriguez of
$350K
an reyes rhp
$320K
flores lhp
~$500k
eckstein ss
$3.5m
stinnett c
$650k
helling rhp
$750K
thompson rhp
$350K
mench lf
$3m
seabol 3b
Memphis
wainwright
Memphis
ty johnson lhp
$320K
edmonds cf
$9.5m
schumaker of
Memphis
cali lhp
$320K
giles rf
$10m
duncan 1b
Memphis
lincoln rhp
still rehabbin
TOTAL
$53m
TOTAL
$2.6m
TOTAL
$18m
TOTAL
$17m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $90m

you'll note that i've slotted retread rick helling into marquis' rotation spot; click on his stats before you reject the idea. or substitute pedro astacio, jamey wright, or some other bad cheap retread. the point of that slot isn't to improve the team; it's to clear salary for more pressing needs. all you need there is somebody who can make 15 starts and give the team a chance to win half of 'em; come the 2d half his slot goes (if necessary) to wainwright, chris gissell, or some veteran the cardinals find on the trade market.

an even more ambitious variation features blue jays outfielder vernon wells, who at 26 still has some room to grow and could take over for edmonds in center in 2007. the jays need pitching and may offer wells to acquire it; i'm not sure the cardinals could or would meet the blue jays' price in that regard. let's fantasize for a moment that toronto would give him up for marquis, wainwright, and brad thompson -- not likely to happen, but let's just pretend:

GILES VARIATION #3: WELLS

EVERYDAY BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
taguchi of
$1m
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
luna if
$350K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
mota rhp
$3m
grud'k 2b
$2.5m
gall 1b-of
$320K
suppan rhp
$4m
looper rhp
$4m
rolen 3b
$11m
rodriguez of
$350K
an reyes rhp
$320K
flores lhp
~$500k
eckstein ss
$3.5m
stinnett c
$650k
helling rhp
$750K
eldred rhp
$750K
giles lf
$10m
seabol 3b
Memphis
ty johnson lhp
$320K
edmonds cf
$9.5m
schumaker of
Memphis
cali lhp
$320K
wells rf
$4.3m
duncan 1b
Memphis
lincoln rhp
still rehabbin
TOTAL
$54.4m
TOTAL
$2.6m
TOTAL
$18m
TOTAL
$16.5m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $91.5m

making this far-fetched scenario even more far-fetched, consider this: vernon wells had a pretty bad 2005. his overall line isn't terrible, but he had some awful splits: .722 ops away from home, .689 ops vs right-handed pitching. so if you like the thought of acquiring this guy, you have to stake a lot on wells' age -- he'll be 27 in 2006 -- and believe that he's just reaching his peak seasons. or maybe you think a 27-year-old wells at $4.5 million is less of a risk than a 38-year-old sanders at $3 million. by the way, braden looper's presence in this chart is in no way an endorsement; i'm just playing around with variables. i may have overpriced him, but the guy did save 28 games last year and can throw 95 mph. . . . .

ray king is invisible in all these scenarios because, frankly, i have no idea what the cardinals can get for him. he's a left-handed relief pitcher with a reliable track record, so he has value; but he's under contract for $2.5 million, so he's pricey. likeliest he's not going to provide much return to the major-league roster, but if jocketty's lucky maybe he can get a grade-b prospect for the guy.

for that matter, jock may be best served to trade marquis for a prospect or two -- clear his salary off the books, put the money into the bullpen, and try to restock the system. i'm not about to start speculating about who those prospects might be, but the major-league roster might then look something like this:

GILES VARIATION #4: BULLPEN BEEF

EVERYDAY BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
~$600K
taguchi of
$1m
carpenter rhp
$5m
is'hausen rhp
$8.5m
pujols 1b
$14m
luna if
$350K
mulder lhp
$7.5m
todd jones rhp
$3.5m
grud'k 2b
$2.5m
gall 1b-of
$320K
suppan rhp
$4m
mota rhp
$3m
rolen 3b
$11m
schumaker of
$320K
an reyes rhp
$320K
hammond lhp
$1.5m
eckstein ss
$3.5m
stinnett c
$650k
helling rhp
$750K
thompson rhp
$350K
rodriguez lf
$350K
seabol 3b
Memphis
wainwright
Memphis
flores lhp
~$500k
edmonds cf
$9.5m
duncan 1b
Memphis
ty johnson lhp
$320K
giles lf
$10m
lincoln rhp
still rehabbin
TOTAL
$51.5m
TOTAL
$2.6m
TOTAL
$18m
TOTAL
$18m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $93m

i like this type of structure too, partic where postseason is concerned -- a solid top of rotation, a deep bullpen with some hard-throwing veterans for the late innings, and a lineup with power and on-base ability.

love to hear ev'ybody's thoughts on any/all these giles variants. coming soon: aj burnett as the centerpiece acquisition.

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TOLAXOR
I REALLY LIKE THESE...

I DOUBT MOTA AND TODD JONES ARE GOING TO WANT TO PLAY TOGETHER AGAIN, IN FACT, I DOUBT MOTA WILL GO SOMEWHERE WHERE HE ISN'T "CLOSER"...  BUT I THINK HE'S ONE PERSON WE SHOULD PURSUE FOR THE PEN, MOST DEF.

THE OTHER THING THAT BOTHERS ME ABOUT THESE SCENARIOS IS THAT THERE'S NO ROOM FOR JULY 31ST TRADING...

I'D LIKE TO SEE A SCENARIO WHERE WE LEAVE ROOM TO ACQUIRE TALENT....

FINALLY, I'M NOT SURE IT MAKES SENSE TO GET GILES....  YES, HE'S A GREAT HITTER, YES HE'D MAKE US INVINCIBLE, BUT HE'S OLD AND HE'S GOING TO COMMAND A LONG TERM (4-5 YEAR) CONTRACT AND MORE REALISTICALLY SOUTH OF $14 MILLION IMHO...

FRANKLY, WITH THE PRODUCTIVITY WE HAD FROM LAST YEARS TEAM...

I'D RATHER HAVE WELLS FOR A SHORT 3YEAR CONTRACT, REGGIE FOR A YEAR, AND FOCUS ON GETTING YOUTH BY TRADING PITCHING TALENT (MARQUIS AND WAINWRIGHT) FOR A YOUNG 2B (KENDRICK) AND OF WHO WILL BE READY IN 2007...

by TOLAXOR on Nov 7, 2005 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

yikes
Boy, does it make me nervous to contemplate assigning 150 or so innings to the likes of Rick Helling or Jamey Wright. lboros, I know you're thinking about the postseason and the desire to avoid wasting assets on a #5 starter who won't be worth much come October. But I fear we're just a strained groin away from another 2003 with variations 2, 3 and 4. We have to get to October before we can win there.

I wouldn't trade Marquis unless we can get considerably more for him than folks seem to be contemplating. Frankly, I think he is worth more -- he's a guy with yet-untapped potential who should be just reaching his prime. I didn't like his end-of-season whining, either, but if all we can get for him is a guy with a .328 OBP (Mench) or if we have to package him with our #6 starter (Wainwright) and cheap middle-inning rightie (Thompson) to get a guy with a .320 OBP (Wells), I'll stick with the status quo.

By the way, compare these 2005 OBPs:
 Mench    .328
 Wells    .320
 Crawford .331
 Sanders  .340

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Nov 7, 2005 12:52 PM EST reply actions  

i may be selling
marquis short, but i'm mindful of what jim callis of baseball america said recently in a chat (and sorry i don't have the link), something on the order of: "he's a starting pitcher who couldn't get a start in the postseason." his VORP is pretty weak, and his peripherals were all down . . . . i guess i don't see a huge year in the offing from him.

re jamey wright, sounds god-awful i know . . . but he was 8-16 last year for a terrible team in a terrible pitcher's park. with better offensive support, a better pitching coach, better bullpen, he goes, what --- 10-14? 11-13? not so much worse than marquis.

i'd be willing to take that kind of step down if it gives jock the flexibility to shore up the pen and add some youth to the roster

by lboros on Nov 7, 2005 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Wright
lboros, I envision us having this debate for months on end, right up until the time Jason Simontacchi starts a key series against the Cubs in late July....

Seriously, I think there is a real dropoff from Marquis to Wright. By my back-of-the-envelope math, Wright's non-Colorado ERA is about 4.70. And while that's a heckuva bullpen you've constructed, I fear we'd be seeing a bit too much of those guys in the 4th and 5th inning.

Maybe I'm just blinded by Marquis's high potential-to-results ratio. But I think he was better than his numbers indicated last year. Seems like we spent much of the summer lamenting the way TLR left him in games too long in the hope of improving his W-L record. And I think he has far more upside than some of other names mentioned.

All this subject to change after Jock overpays for Matt Morris.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Nov 7, 2005 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

gaaah
morris . . . . i love the heck out of the guy, but even i am against re-signing him in this market. just too risky unless he leaves a LOT of money on the table. for his own sake, i hope he doesn't do that, but if he's willing to sign for $5.5 mill a year . . . .

you're right, we'll be debating this one until it finally shakes out --- and maybe thereafter depending on what kind of results ensue. i'm not deaf to the argument on your side; marquis could finally blossom. but he still has real maturity problems, his strikeouts and g/f regressed, and ('nother factor) the kid has piled up a lot of innings at a young age.

as for simontacchi, i was actually thinking that andy benes is only 38 years old . . . .

by lboros on Nov 7, 2005 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I'm with you on this one, DCGreg
Maybe it's just a "DC" thing... but I'm not sold on giving up Marquis just yet either, unless we get much more than Mench straight-up. We should remember one common element of all the scenarios presented so far by lboros: no MattyMo in the rotation. w/no Morris and no Marquis, suddenly you go from Suppan being a very nice asset as a more-than-serviceable #4/5 starter who can win 15 games, to a guy you're depending on heavily as a #3 starter. (And God forbid Carp or Mulder should have to miss any significant time if that's the case, as DCGreg rightly notes.)

I want Reyes to be great as much as anyone, and I'm excited about having a young stud in the rotation. (And I'm TOTALLY against any trade scenario involving him ... we already traded one hard-throwing young starter last winter!) But I think giving up Marquis and signing some re-tread innings eater like Helling puts a lot more pressure on the kid early on. Why not at least hang on to Marquis for a while and see how Lil' Reyes handles extensive exposure in the majors? Best-case scenario, Marquis suddenly grows up and becomes the top-line pitcher he still seems capable of becoming, Reyes also pitches well, and we have lots of trade options at mid-season.  

Finally, re: these various Giles scenarios, I'm inclined to order "Bullpen Beef". I think we can get along just fine w/a J-Rod and Gooch platoon in left.

by DCRedbird on Nov 7, 2005 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Wright
was with the Cards for a couple months in 2002, and was mediocre, at best. Taking another flyer at him would be too risky, IMO. Helling had one good year, in '98, and is coming off a year where he appeared in just 15 games, 7 as a starter. I agree with Greg; yikes...

by cardsrul on Nov 7, 2005 1:36 PM EST reply actions  

but fellahs
we're talking about replacing a pitcher who spent the summer going 1-11 for the cardinals . . . . how much worse could jamey wright be?

by lboros on Nov 7, 2005 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

is it
too late to bring back donovan osbourne?

by cardsrul on Nov 7, 2005 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

marquis
the real value of marquis is his trade value. If we can use him to improve our lineup that's the best way to use him. Yes, I think he's a decent pitcher, but come on...the guy's hardly bob gibson reincarnate! He's the fifth starter on the Cards, and could be a solid 3 starter for alot of other teams, hence his value to the cards. You can't be afraid to pull the tigger on a deal involving Marquis.

I think you've hit upon a fine idea with an el cheap-o fifth starter, Birdos. This is the guy we need to start 30 games, maybe less if you think they'll probably give wainwright the chance to start some. If there's an injury to a starter, you fill his space with wainwright, and if a starter's down for the season...trade time, if there's a real chance to make a run at it.

To be honest, if they don't move Marquis to fill one of their main needs to start 06, I wouldn't be opposed to swaping him for some much needed talent.

NO SACRED COWS!

by Ryan Van Bibber on Nov 7, 2005 2:35 PM EST reply actions  

You must
give to get... that's always a difficult pill to swallow during Hot Stove time. I just don't see the upside to keeping Marquis for another year. IMO, he's extremely replaceable. The upgrade of offense in return would compensate for a slightly below average starter in the rotation.
Speaking of giving to get... Busch Stadium is just minutes away from a date with a wrecking ball. Thanks for the memories.

by Matt @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 7, 2005 3:53 PM EST reply actions  

TARGET KANSAS CITY
I'D TARGET KC FOR TRADES TO GET YOUNGER, BECAUSE BAIRD IS LOOKING TO "MAKE A SPLASH" THIS OFFSEASON... NOTHING MORE DANGEROUS THAN A FOOL AND HIS MONEY...

HE WON'T BE ABLE TO GET A BYRD, GILES, OR SUCH - SO I THINK SENDING MARQUIS TO KC FOR YOUNG OF TALENT MAKES A HECK OF A LOT OF SENSE....

by TOLAXOR on Nov 7, 2005 4:09 PM EST reply actions  

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