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a word about awards

the answers to yesterday's trivia question come at the end of this post.

i'd recommend to everybody ken arneson's post the other day at Catfish Stew, wherein he comments upon the disgust over bartolo colon's coronation as the al cy young winner. the disgust -- prevelant within the by-the-numbers camp -- arises because, sabermetrically speaking, colon wasn't the best pitcher in the league. the numbers are unequivocal. hence statements like this one: "The choice of Colon over Johan Santana - or Mariano Rivera, or Kevin Millwood, or Mark Buehrle - is indefensible. . . . stupid, smug, pat idiocy masquerading as analysis, flying in the face of logic, and insulting baseball fans across the nation."

similar outrage has been spewing throughout the baseball blogosphere ever since colon won. except at Catfish Stew, where arneson says, succinctly:  "Awards are not measurements. Awards are celebrations."

i happen to agree. i wrote much the same thing in september during a discussion about the nl mvp race: "to me, the mvp award celebrates more than the individual player who receives it; it celebrates the game. it's an emblem of excellence . . . . . the award isn't just about value; it is also about values, the things we admire in the game."

i know, i know -- soft-headed thinking. drives sabrsayers up the wall. but i'm sticking to my opinion. when it comes to these awards, the sabermetricians have got it all wrong. they're attempting to impose "objective" criteria and standards on awards that were never meant to be objective. we can, thanks to sabermetrics, filter out park effects, run support, defensive support, bullpen support, and numerous other pollutants from a pitcher's stat line and quantify his performance down to fractions of runs. but that does not mean we should replace the ill-informed dolts who vote on these awards with a committee of all-knowing sabermetricians. i sometimes think that's what some people want -- do away with the voting and replace it with rote mathematical analysis that measures pure ability. we could then simply plug everyone's numbers into the formula, run the program, and know with certainty who the real cy young is.

while we're at it, maybe we should just do away with the playoffs too.

Star-divide

short series are a notoriously faulty way of determining which team is really the best -- too few games, too small a sample size. surely it would be an improvement to apply a standard set of statistical criteria to the 162-game regular season, normalize all the data and adjust for context, and determine the champion mathematically. that way we can rid ourselves of nonsensical results such as we saw this october, when the world series was decided -- in defiance of every principle of logic and sabrmetrics -- on home runs by scott podsednik and geoff blum. any sabermetrician can prove in five seconds that these homers were more the product of chance than ability. for that matter, we know -- via the pythagorean formula and baseball prospectus' third-order standings -- that the white sox didn't belong in the postseason at all, much less the series, because the fact is they didn't play the best baseball in their own division in 2005. the cleveland indians did, and by a substantial margin. if it's outrageous for colon to win the cy, isn't it just as outrageous (even more so) to crown the sox as world champs when the numbers so very clearly show they were also-rans in the al central?

granted, the sox won more games than any other al team, but this simply proves the sabr camp's point: wins themselves are a primitive, often wildly imprecise measurement of true performance -- too crude for a 21st-century fan base that demands statistical sophistication . . . . .

have i made my point clear yet?

i've been a sabermetrics devotee since 1982, when ballantine brought bill james' baseball abstract to a mainstream audience. the discipline has deepened my understanding of and appreciation for what i see on the field. but the "movement" (if i must call it that) has taken on an unfortunate aspect, one to which all revolutions are prone -- that of simply replacing old dogma with new dogma. too many people are now applying these concepts self-righteously, not in a spirit of (to return to ken arneson's word) celebrating the game but rather a spirit of "your opinion is idiotic and i've got the numbers to prove it." there's a misplaced obsession with conformity and standardization, a desire to channel every baseball discussion into scientific nomenclature -- and a deafness to the game's poetry.

the al cy young award brought that ugliness way to the fore, so let me use it as an example. if you saw bartolo colon pitch this year (and i didn't), maybe you spotted something that made you say "now there's a pitcher." perhaps it was the way he carved up the strike zone in-out up-down, or the way he worked out of jams; maybe you admired his ability to break his team's losing streaks, or the fact that he had the guts he to challenge opponents' best hitters in tight spots. any of those things (or a million others) might have struck you as an emblem of pure pitching essence -- something to celebrate. as far as i'm concerned, that makes it legitimate grounds to put the guy first on your cy young ballot. it's not as if colon lacked the statistics to qualify as a legitimate finalist -- he placed among the top handful in his league not only in traditional categories like innings, wins, era, whip, k/bb, and adjusted era but also in advanced metrics like FIP and VORP. from that point forward it's a matter of taste -- some voters will parse the stats, others will go with their gut. that's the spirit in which the awards were conceived; i see no reason to change that, nor even to bemoan it.

on the contrary, i kind of like the current system's inconsistency, its blurry standards, the quicksand-like ground upon which many voters seem to base their awards. i like the fact that the "best" player doesn't always win. you know why? because that's the nature of baseball. bad teams routinely beat good ones, and in a given game the team that plays better -- throws harder, hits the ball farther, runs faster -- will often lose because of bad luck or bad timing. so it often goes with these awards; the zeitgeist doesn't always favor the most "deserving" competitor.

i'm not really writing this in defense of carpenter's selection as nl cy -- objections have been muted, and there's a general acknowledgment that he had a year worthy of recognition. i'm writing it more in anticipation of the nl mvp, which andruw jones is going to win. among cardinal fans, understandably, that will not be a popular outcome, and i'll have no problem with people expressing disappointment, frustration, etc. but i'll be less patient with arrogant, sabr-centric fulminations about how idiotic the voters are.

the game's about art, not science. the awards are about celebration, not measurement.

trivia answers:

darryl kile got one 1st place vote in 2000, his first year with stl, after going 20-9, 3.91 with 192 strikeouts. he was one of five pitchers to receive a 1st-place vote that year, finished fifth in the overall race; randy johnson won.

lee smith got four 1st place votes in 1991, a year in which (i think) he broke the nl record for saves. he recorded 47. smith finished second overall that year to tom glavine.

bruce sutter was among four pitchers to receive 1st place votes in 1982 -- he got two of `em and finished 3d behind two steves, montreal's rogers and philadelphia's carlton (who won his 4th cy that year).

al hrabosky got two 1st place votes in 1975 for going 13-3, 1.67 with 22 saves. he finished 3d behind tom seaver (the winner) and randy jones.

finally there's the 1960 award. back then voters didn't name 1st, 2d, and 3d place choices on their ballot; they simply cast one vote for the best pitcher. pittsburgh's vern law won the award, warren spahn finished second, and two cardinal pitchers got one vote apiece -- lindy mcdaniel (12-4, 2.09) and none other than ernie broglio (21-9, 2.74). two voters appear to have abstained that year, not that it would have changd the outcome in any case . . . .

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Very nice, l
Perfectly said.

by bellyscratcher on Nov 11, 2005 11:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your attitude
..about the awards (as well as the postseason).

Both run a handful of candidates through tests whose results may not conform to some other more "objective" measure, but that provide a lot of fun and subject matter for folks like us to get into a froth over. The eventual "winner" is never a total joke---I mean a Wild Card team was still one of the best teams in its league, and Bartolo Colon is one of the game's top hurlers---although there will almost be some complaining that the dude with the best XplRVr only got two first-place votes, or that the team that won 100+ games was "ripped off" by postseason off days or an All-Star-Game-dependent home-field advantage.

If you want to check out some really fine examples of the "subjective observation" as noted by lboros, see some of the early award winners, like our own Bob O'Farrell (MVP in '26) and Marty Marion (MVP in '44) and more recently, Zoilo Versalles (AL MVP in '65), guys who were gritty "heart-and-soul" types whose leadership at a demanding defensive position must have made the difference in the voters' eyes. Although with Zoilo, they must not have cared about defense, because he made a career-high 39 errors that year (while winning a Gold Glove)... and how does a guy who leads the league in total bases end up with an OPS of just .781?

by salvomania on Nov 11, 2005 11:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

*OPS*
wasn't even on the radar screen in '65, believe me. All anyone cared about then(and I still do to this day) were the raw numbers. No offense to anyone here, but sabremetrics makes my hair hurt, and I consider myself to be a very smart person.

by cardsrul on Nov 11, 2005 12:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Dontrelle's reaction
in USA Today (lifted from bellyitcher) was a perfect counter to anyone wailing that D-Train got "robbed."  The guy sounds like a pretty classy young man, and I'd be willing to bet cash money American that Willis will win at least one Cy before he's done...

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 11, 2005 11:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

ya
I like the guy.  He's fun to watch, he has that big smile, and he does those ads for the boys and girls club.  To me, he's the anti-schilling--the more I see him, the more I like him.

by Valatan on Nov 11, 2005 12:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I also love Carp's
quote from the MLB Cy young article:

"I voted for Dontrelle in both the other two awards, the Players Choice and for The Sporting News," said Carpenter. "The things that I look at are guys that as a competitor, I know that they're doing the same things that I do. And I know that Dontrelle does that, and I know that Roger does that. I know that they go out and they work their [rear end] off four days in between starts to get ready for the fifth day. I know they're going to do everything they can to win that game. I enjoy competing against guys like that.

"There's no question about it, the guys that they considered for this award all deserved it. I was the fortunate one to get the votes from the media, and I appreciate that."

by Valatan on Nov 11, 2005 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hear ye, hear ye
Especially in light of recent actions by other athletes in other sports currently in the national spotlight...

by sdesserman on Nov 11, 2005 12:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

there's gotta be a balance
some things just fly in the face of common sense.like if jones beats pujols as you predict. not saying that couldn't happen, it's just maddening because we all know there is quite a few players out there better then Jones and who did more for their team then Jones.

i love the poetry of the game, and i hate reducing it strictly to numbers. i don't even understand 80% of the stats out there nowadays but i think there's gotta be a balance. i know there are many voters who agree with that but for every one of those voters there are seemingly 5 more idiots out there who seemingly don't even pay attention to the game.

i fear that most of the sportswriters will once again overlook pujols because jones supposively broke out and hit 50 homers on a team that was banged up but still won it's 13 straight division, while pujols is consistently good year in and year out on a team the was already the favs to win their division.  

by erik on Nov 11, 2005 12:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree to a point...
I think this post is a great addition to the awards debate, and needs to be said.  I've made a similar argument for the Hall of Fame -- that it should be a warehouse of collective memories rather than a database of "highest career Win Shares" or what have you, and if that attitude leads you to put Mariano Rivera and his searing performances in the postseason over someone like Bert Blyleven, who might be more sabermetrically accredited but somehow hazier in the mind, then so be it.  I think you can make a similar case for MVP, Cy Young, and the like, and you've certainly made a good one.

But just as you don't want things to be purely mathematically objective, I don't think you want them to be purely "artistic" either (to borrow your terminology).  The problem with saying it's okay to vote for Bartolo Colon because you liked the way he approached hitters is that few, if any, writers on the BBWAA would agree with you.  Ask them why they voted for Colon and they'll say "because he was the best pitcher."  Now "best" is a tricky word, and I'm sure it includes things like makeup and winningness and all those celebratory terms -- but it also includes all kinds of objective measurements that are commonly understood to designate the "best."

In other words, both voters AND fans are looking for objective criteria when choosing these awards (and who else are these awards for if not fans?).  If the process were merely art, we could never argue about whether an award was right or wrong, because art itself is not right or wrong.  And we could never change our minds either, because every candidate you advocate would be equally worthy (you might admire the way Colon approaches hitters, I might admire, say, Mike Mussina's grittiness).  A purely artistic outlook, then, would greatly diminish the game, because we'd all be locked into our own relativistic impressions -- I think it would make the game smaller, not bigger.

The best way to look at these awards, I think, is to hold objective and subjective measurements in tension.  That is to say, we should be subjective enough to bring our memories to bear on the issue, but objective enough to be able to filter out faulty impressions and say, "hey, maybe I was wrong... maybe your guy WAS the best pitcher this year..."

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 11, 2005 12:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

good clarification brian
and if i recall we more or less reached this point back during the summer. the metaphor then wasn't science vs art, but context vs context-independence ---- but it was pretty much the same discussion, and the same conclusion viz: every voter has to find his/her own balance of science and art, or statistics and intangibles, or whatever other labels you want to use.

i agree, as you note, that "A purely artistic outlook would greatly diminish the game," and i hope i didn't come across as favoring that. i favor (to paraphrase you "holding objective and subjective measurements in tension." a guy's got to pass the compulsories; he's got to be a legitimate candidate. but colon clearly was, even if we limit ourselves to sabrmetrics --- 4th in the AL among starting pitchers in win shares; 5th in VORP; 6th in FIP. toss in the fact that he led the league in wins (which some of us still think should matter), and you've got a guy who belongs in the discussion.

that's when taste comes in, the balance between subjective and objective inputs. the voters strike a balance that the sabr community doesn't like, which is fine --- the sabrs are as entitled to their opinions as anyone. but what i'm reacting to (and see my response below to salb918) isn't the opinion, but rather the vitriol directed at the voters, the intolerance for differing views. i'm not defending their vote; i'm defending their right to vote as they choose, for the reasons they choose.

must be the latent civics professor in me; or maybe i'm reacting this way because we can't anymore in this country have civil disagreements on any subject, not even the goddamn cy young award. it's all "i'm right and you're an idiot" or "we're moral and they're sinners."

so i'm not misunderstood, i am NOT accusing you of this personally brian, nor am i singling out any individual. i'm picking up on the zeitgeist. i'm saying i don't like it.

by lboros on Nov 11, 2005 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two more cents...
Yesterday, Larry, you linked to a chat thread over at the Baseball Think Factory that broke down the merits of the various NL Cy Young candidates.  It was interesting as hell -- very civil, very logical, filled with lots of stats and sabermetric analyses and wonky dissections.  But the impression I got, walking away from it, was that the finest instruments could not give us a clear-cut choice for Cy Young.  Whether you chose Carpenter or Clemens (and these were the only two who had a rock-solid case according to objective analysis) came down to taste, judgment, impressions, philosophy.  Through science, art.  Or something like that.

The problem I have with those who voted for Colon is that they themselves were employing "objective" criteria when voting for the award.  I've yet to hear any voter for the AL Cy Young say, in essence, "the numbers favored Santana, but I went with Colon because of the intangibles he brought to the game."  No.  What they said is that the NUMBERS favored Colon.  And really, there's no number that favors Colon over Santa EXCEPT individual wins (even team wins in games which they started favors Santana over Colon).  So I don't think a vote for Colon over Santana illustrates the triumph of art over scienece.  I think it illustrates the triumph of bad science over good science.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 11, 2005 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying
but, regardless of how detailed we get in our analysis, isn't there still a bottom line that has to do with winning?  Whether we're talking about a "perfect world" analysis, or the Cy, the numbers don't always tell the whole story.  It's a forest for the trees scenario for anyone who wants to gripe and moan about Carp winning.  He did the most to help his team win.  Yes, E.R.A. and other objective standards help us determine that, and poor Roger may have been the victim of his team not scoring for him, but bottom line, the Birds won when Carp took the mound.  What's his intangible value as a stopper, as a member of the team.  

Regardless of what the half-wits at ESPN might suggest, the Cy goes to the best pitcher based on whatever standards the individual voters use, not based on whatever unified standards they want us all to accept.  I'm pretty sure if they had their druthers, the NL Cy would have come from the Yanks or Bosox, so they had yet another opportunity to explore the greatest rivalry in all of sport. (He says, tongue firmly planted in cheek.)  Why can't team victories be the most telling statistic when voting for the Cy?  

by sdesserman on Nov 11, 2005 12:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I concur...
I enjoy a bit of the new school of measuring stats with a great big dollop of personal prejudices and old-school beliefs. It's how I've enjoyed the game my whole life. If it aint fun as well as scientific, I'll quit on it. There's never just one way to view something as unpredictable and goofy and exciting as baseball. When fans of other teams ask me, doesn't it just kill you that the Birds keep getting so close but can't seem to seal the deal, I say yes, it's frustrating--but if they keep getting there, one of these times they'll win. One of these years the ball will fall in all the right places, the breaks will come our way, the hitters will hit and the pitchers will not crack. Does anything mathematical tell me that? No way. My love of this team and this game tells me that. It can't be quantified, but it's there and it's real. I think folks who insist upon one dogma are seriously doing themselves a disservice. There's a time for cold hard numbers and a time for blind gushing fandom. This is why, when all is said and done, I do like the wild card--because it is just that: wild. If a lesser team can get hot at the right time, look out. I agree that the way it's set up could be much better--total home field advantage (EVERY game) should be awarded to the best, by the numbers team--but I quarantee all the naysayers will stop crowing when someday down the line it's the Birds who win a World Series because of it. As for the MVP, I'll be slightly ticked when Albie gets passed over again, but them's the breaks. His time will surely come--as will this team's. And no slide rule can make that happen or stop it.

Wow. Long rant. Sorry.  

by rockin redbird on Nov 11, 2005 12:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Jones did lead the NL
in two of the three triple crown categories, while winning a gold glove.  did he have as good a year as Pujols or Lee?  No.  Is it rediculous to vote for him?  I don't think so--especially since Pujols execels via extreme consistency, which isn't as exciting or as likely to make highlight reels.

by Valatan on Nov 11, 2005 12:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Valatan, I agree...
The fanboys who keep up the drumbeat about what a joke it would be for Jones to win the MVP have to consider the following:

--Had the only 50-hr season in MLB the past three years
--Led NL in RBI
--Won Gold Glove at "skill" position
--Starred for injury-ravaged team that won division title

Looking at that, I can't see being too critical about anyone voting for Jones as MVP, although of course you could certainly argue that other playeres may be more deserving. But a "joke"? I don't think so.

by salvomania on Nov 11, 2005 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

...and I'll follow up on my Cy Young trivia
The Cardinals traded the following five pitchers, all of whom later won Cys between 1969-1983:

Mike Cuellar (1969 AL Cy), traded to Houston in '65 with P Ron Taylor for Ps Hal Woodeshick and Chuck Taylor. Both Cuellar and Ron Taylor would turn in outstanding performances---Cuellar as a starter with the Orioles and Taylor as a reliever with the Mets---in the '69 postseason. Woodeshick and Chuck Taylor were decnt relievers for the Cards for a couple of seasons each.

Steve Carlton (1972, 1977, 1980, 1982 Cy), traded to Philly before '72 season for Rick Wise. Gussie Busch was dumping a perceived troublemaker, and Rick Wise was a decent pitcher, slightly younger, coming off what would be probably his best season. He had two good---not great---years with the Birds before being packaged with future Series hero Bernie Carbo to the Red Sox for switch-hitting Reggie Smith.

Rollie Fingers (1981 AL Cy/MVP), traded to Brewers in Dec. '80 four days after being acquired from San Diego.

Pete Vuckovich (1982 AL Cy), dealt with Fingers and Ted Simmons to Brewers in blockbuster Dec. '80 trade that netted the Birds Ps Larry Sorenson (7-7 w/ Stl in '81 before being packaged in trade that brought Lonnie Smith), Dave LaPoint (mediocre three seasons w/ StL) and disapponting OFs Sixto Lezcano and David Green. LaPoint and Green were later traded to bring in Jack Clark, and Lezcano was part of the trade that brought in Ozzie Smith. So dealing the two future Cys and a Ted Simmons whose best years were behind him led to the Birds acquiring three key components of the '82 and '85/'87 pennant winners.

John Denny (1983 NL Cy) traded to Cleveland after '79 season with OF Jerry Mumphrey for the worn-out carcass of Bobby Bonds, coming off his last good year. Bonds would hit just .203/.305/.316 in 270 PAs with StL.

by salvomania on Nov 11, 2005 12:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Strong Disagreement
"the game's about art, not science. the awards are about celebration, not measurement."

The game is an art, but any "Most Valuable X" award is a measurement. It is, by definition, a comparison of all players in that class against one another. That's precisely why I find these awards so silly, because I don't know anyone who can competently distinguish among Carpenter, Willis, Clemens, Pettitte, and the rest. Not Bill James, not Clay Davenport, not Rick Hummel or Joe Strauss, and certainly not me. Somebody like Davenport could come up with some meaningful statistics as a starting point, but that's all it would be.

Beyond that, gosh darn it, it's 2005 and we don't need the BBWAA to celebrate these players' accomplishments.

by Rob H on Nov 11, 2005 1:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

celebrate

"I don't know anyone who can competently distinguish among Carpenter, Willis, Clemens, Pettitte, and the rest."

exactly. that's why the awards aren't about measurement --- because nobody can measure with sufficient precision, and nobody can establish fixed standards that do justice to all circumstances year-in year-out. that leaves judgment, as guided by the best measurements available. but once we accept judgment, we have to accept that it's an inherently subjective process --- and hence our own judgment might differ from that of the majority.

either we accept that, or we just do away with the awards. like you i don't care so much about who wins what award, but i still wouldn't want to do away with them because . . . . . they're a way to celebrate. which gets me back to ken arneson's point

by lboros on Nov 11, 2005 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Better Ways
I could buy the 'subjectivity' claim except I think the reason Carpenter got the award was solely that he had a 21-5 record for the team with the best regular season record in the NL. Somewhat similar story for Colon. Those are stats, objective measurements, nothing more. The only aesthetics here are numerological, and that's just not much. If you've got to use numbers, then at least use the important ones, whatever they may be.

There are much better ways to celebrate a player's accomplishments than tallying a bunch of sportswriter ballots.

by Rob H on Nov 11, 2005 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was the one who
boros quotes: "The choice of Colon over Johan Santana - or Mariano Rivera, or Kevin Millwood, or Mark Buehrle - is indefensible. . . . stupid, smug, pat idiocy masquerading as analysis, flying in the face of logic, and insulting baseball fans across the nation."

That's me, that's how I felt, and that's still how I feel.  I won't apologize for that.  Here's my full post:

The selection of Bartolo Colon as the 2005 AL Cy Young is the clearest indication yet that the mainstream media is out of touch with the revolution fomenting in baseball today.  Colon was a fine pitcher in 2005, but the choice of Colon over Johan Santana - or Mariano Rivera, or Kevin Millwood, or Mark Buehrle - is indefensible.  This isn't a case of Old School Neanderthals versus Stat Wonk Futurists, to borrow a phrase from Paul Oberjuerge.  I'm not asking them to use Win Shares or put a Baseball Prospectus subscription on their company account.  When the league leader in wins takes the award running away but the league ERA leader garners a single third place vote - when a pitcher with 18 wins and a 3.79 ERA gets more support than a pitcher with 16 wins and a 3.12 ERA - it tells me that the voters didn't even take five minutes to fill out their ballots.

The same cabal that robbed Randy Johnson last year and Johan Santana this year is the one that shelters and protects the Bill Plaschkes of the world. Stupid, smug, pat idiocy masquerading as analysis, flying in the face of logic, and insulting baseball fans across the nation.  There's a reason that I pay more attention to the Internet Baseball Awards than I do to the BBWAA and MLB awards.  Amateurs and enthusiasts will always do the job better than journalists getting fat on their tenure.

I enjoy the writing of boros and VEB tremendously (despite having wholly ambivalent feelings toward the Cardinals).  I hat e to pull the old "out of context...but I think I was quoted somewhat out of context.  I specifically say that I do not expect the voters to appreciate or even understand advanced metrics.  The point is that even the regular metrics, the one these very writers quote day in and day out, are somehow ignored in the vote for the "Best Pitcher."  The fact that pitcher wins and losses are still used as a measuring stick for pitching prowess is an artifact of 19th century baseball.

Boros's suggestion that the game-as-poetry is incapable of being appreciated by the sabr-set is also untrue.  I feel sad when people like Bissinger tell me that I can't possibly love baseball as much as the next guy because I was chased off the baseball field at an early age because I lack any discernible playing skill.  The numbers-set enjoy the game in their own way, and the numbers tell a tale and a poetry all their own.  I can't expect everybody to do the same.

But I do have an issue with awards, since they are a measurement for future generations to remember baseball.  If they do not celebrate the best at their craft, then of what use are they?  

Anyway, I will reiterate my last point: Amateurs and enthusiasts will always do the job better than journalists getting fat on their tenure.  It's precisely why I enjoy VEB and SBNation blogs in general.  And what's a better story than a bunch of fans giving the so-called professionals a run for their money?

by salb918 on Nov 11, 2005 1:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i know you're a reader
salb918, and i'm not trying to single you out --- hence i didn't name or link you. of course i'm a regular BtB reader, and in fact a contributor to the BtB annual coming out soon. you guys have a great site, and i'm not trying to criticize what you guys do.

i'm not reacting to the substance of your post; i'm reacting to the tone. if you had stopped at "the mainstream media is out of touch with the revolution," i'd wholeheartedly agree. as i noted, i've been watching and supporting this revolution for almost 25 years. but when you refer to the voters as a "cabal" who "robbed" certain players of their due, and dismissing their opinion as "stupid, smug, pat idiocy masquerading as analysis" --- that's where i jump the train. having worked in the media, i'm also well aware that laziness and ignorance run rampant there. i'm also aware that these guys regard it as an honor to have a vote, and they take it very seriously and spend a lot of time and effort trying to cast a fair ballot. like you, i usually hold a different opinion from the majority of the voters --- because i weight sabrmetrics more heavily than they do.

but it doesn't therefore follow that they are men and women of low character and/or intelligence. and that's what i'm reacting against.

thanks for checking in salb918, and adding to the conversation.

by lboros on Nov 11, 2005 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks boros
One final shot I have to stick in there: I don't read much St Louis media, but it appears to be generally mild and good-willed toward the team.  The same is generally true out in the Bay Area, which is where I grew up.  But some of the vindictive, hate-filled local writers in (for example) L.A. or the sarcastic coverage in (for example) N.Y. lead to question the motives, if not the character/intelligence, of these journalists.  I guess I'm reacting to the exception and not the rule.

Thanks for your inside views on the media and for running a great blog.

by salb918 on Nov 11, 2005 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Writers
I know sportswriters who work very hard at their jobs and still love them.

At the same time, I see a lot of coverage that appears to be the product of someone who's just bored by the game and his job.

It's in picking up the slack from that batch that I think sports blogs have done their best work and had the biggest effect on my life as a sports fan. Blogs like Redbird Nation and this one have given the past couple of seasons--especially because I live in  Chicago and don't see the team as often as I'd like--a fullness and richness that they would never have had if I'd only relied on the Post-Dispatch coverage.

So thanks, guys.

by levistahl on Nov 11, 2005 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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