carp wins

by lboros on Nov 10, 2005 2:16 PM EST in News Comment 19 comments

details to follow.

Update [2005-11-10 14:32:33 by lboros]: snap reaction at baseball musings: ?It looks like the NL voters applied the ?Team winning the division makes you a better pitcher? test. . . . . It?s not a bad vote, not nearly as bad as the AL. It's just not clear to me the logic the voters used in selecting Carpenter over Willis.?

Update [2005-11-10 14:34:51 by lboros]: sour grapes at Fish Stripes: "It couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy. Oh wait - yes it could have. There were at least two other more deserving candidates. . . . This was the closest finish since 1998. Still, it doesn't feel right. I'd really like to see how each writer voted."

Update [2005-11-10 15:54:50 by lboros]:tacit endorsement of the choice from Lookout Landing: "A much more reasonable choice than yesterday's, although I would've given it to the Rocket." compare the lists in this post to the ones re the al cy young.

Update [2005-11-10 16:19:11 by lboros]: at the think factory they're not only pissed about clemens getting jobbed, they're already bitching about either albert or andruw winning the mvp.

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Congrats, Carp

THIS is the award the internet-o-sphere decides to gripe about? ESPN.com's headline reads SORRY, DONTRELLE..., with a subhed of "The Cards' ace had one fewer win and a higher ERA than Dontrelle Willis, but had 43 more strikeouts." Translation: Carpenter cheaps his way into some hardware. Somehow I don't think that was the sentiment when Colon won his award the other day, or when Juan Gonzalez picked up his bargain-basement MVP trophies.

If you take away Carpenter's last three games, which were tune-up starts after the Cards had already clinched, then he's the clear winner over Dontrelle. And besides, if you're going to look past won-loss percentage and toward purely individual stats, the winner of the 2005 Cy Young Award is not Dontrelle Willis but Roger Clemens. (Baseball Prospectus' Support Neutral Value Added, which I think is the single best "lump stat" to evaluate pitchers, has Clemens as the clear winner, with Carpenter, Willis, and Pettitte in a dead heat for second.)

I'm not sure how I would have voted, but I'm perfectly comfortable with Carpenter's selection. There's not much to recommend Willis over him, especially if, as I said, you throw out those meaningless starts at the end of the season. Is it fair to throw those out, though? We do that kinda stuff for MVPs all the time... is the Cy a different animal? Thoughts?

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 10, 2005 3:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

this is exactly why

I get my Cards coverage from Belly, VEB and Cardnilly. I can't stand espn.

by Suzanne on Nov 10, 2005 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm with you on clemens

the argument for him is basically this: "the sportswriters base their votes on the wrong criteria, ie team- and park-dependent data like wins and era. if you look at the proper data (ie context-stripped data), they all point to clemens."

that's a clear alternative; i don't agree with the argument 100 percent, but it's based on sound logic. but the case for willis as far as i can tell is: "he had one more win and a lower era." therefore he was robbed?

by lboros on Nov 10, 2005 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Carp, Willis and Clemens

Gee whiz. I don't get the fuss. I am happy that Carp won, but really I wouldn't grouse if Willis won.

As for Clemmens, he wouldn't get my vote. Yeah I know he just suffered from a lack of run support which wasn't his "fault". But we all have jobs where we have to make do with the resources (in this case run support) we have.

Put in engineering or management speak: Clemens may have been more efficient, but Carpenter (or Willis) was more effective.

by Zubin on Nov 11, 2005 3:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Regardless,

Congrats Carp, every start of his I watched was a joy. I think he is my favorite current Cardinal

by Valatan on Nov 10, 2005 3:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Willis vs. Carpenter

I got a chance to read the entire post over at Fish Stripes. Here's part of it:

"Even the fool who wrote that article doesn't get it: 'When it mattered, Chris Carpenter was at his best'... Memo to moron: Carpenter had a 5.73 ERA and a .309 batting average against in September."

Uh, sorry Fish Stripes -- those games DIDN'T matter most to the Cardinals. They entered September 13 games ahead in first place and had the division (and home-field advantage in the playoffs) wrapped up a couple weeks later.

The irony is that Dontrelle Willis had a 7.14 ERA in July when his team was fighting for their playoff lives.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 10, 2005 3:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Willis v. Carpenter

VIVA RBN!!!

by Birdman on Nov 10, 2005 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Trying

To suss out the bias at ESPN has always seemed a quixotic undertaking at best, but that headline is retarded.

by bellyscratcher on Nov 10, 2005 3:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

they sure didn't seem pissed with the very obvious robbery that Clemens pulled off on the Big Unit/Ben Sheets last year.

by Valatan on Nov 10, 2005 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

...there's some serious whining over at the fish market...not "sour?" Well, that's a stanky vintage they be drinkin':

"But they're the Cardinals! They're great fans! And they know baseball so well! And they've waited so long for a Cy Young! And, I mean, really, this Cy Young is like a lifetime achievement award for Carpenter. He's overcome so much having had surgery just a few years ago. It's really so great."
by mike42 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:40:53 PM EST

"Oh, I forgot What was I thinking, All Hail the wise and omnipotent Cardnials for they are the true keepers of the game."
by craig on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:47:20 PM EST

Yes, I am a wise and omnipotent Cardnials [sic] fan. (I always wanted to type 'sic'). And if this is "injustice," I hope that's the worst these good folks ever suffer...

And congrats to Carp, whosr astonishing April-August made it possible for his less-than-Cy-ish September to NOT MATTER ONE WHIT.

by glennrwordman on Nov 10, 2005 3:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hilarious.

I guess the idea is that the BBWAA gave the award to Carpenter as a sop to St. Louis fans. I'm not sure how that works exactly. The irony is that Dontrelle Willis won a Rookie of the Year Award a couple years back -- over a much more deserving Brandon Webb -- for the same reasons that Florida's fans are up in arms today. Wonder if they chalked up that vote to the wise and omnipotent Marlians [sic], the true keepers of the game.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 10, 2005 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They can all

kiss my.....

by cardsrul on Nov 10, 2005 4:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

feet,

I meant feet...

by cardsrul on Nov 10, 2005 4:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Media love for Dontrelle

I think all the media angst over this mostly has to do with a preference for the flashier guy over a seemingly plain dude. I can hear the thoughts running through their minds: "But Dontrelle is cool! He wears his cap off-center! He's got the high leg-kick and the funkadelic throwing motion! He pitches in Miami! He shows lots of stirrup! And his name is DONTRELLE, man!" -- whereas Chris Carpenter has just about the most boring name this side of "Joe Smith"; pitches in the midwest; and doesn't have a slick nickname like "D-Train" or "Rocket."

Just a theory, fwiw...

by DCRedbird on Nov 10, 2005 4:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

But a perfect one

nonetheless. If Carp was 42 yrs old or talked to the ball, he would've been the media darling. Just being really good doesn't cut it anymore.

by cardsrul on Nov 10, 2005 4:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Congrats

Carp!! It aint exactly a World Series, but considering how some of our guys got totally dissed on Gold Gloves this year, it's nice to see one of our guys get his due. If he pitches in 06 somewhere near his 05 self, I'll be thrilled with him next year too. Outstanding. Now, though I'm less confident Albie will get MVP--it may still happen. Go Albie!!

by rockin redbird on Nov 10, 2005 4:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well

How come the people upset with this go on and on about the "1 less win", but ignore the "5 fewer losses?"

Cardinal fans, however, can't seriously believe in this so-called media angst. The media, after all, voted on this.

by Robb on Nov 10, 2005 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Congrat's to Carpenter

Stros'fan here. (I come in peace^^) Long time reader but first time poster. Just wanted to add my 2 cents and congratulate Carpenter on an excellent season! Clemons' ERA was low but I think that Carpenter over the whole season was the best pitcher in the NL! He beat head-to-head a lot of the big names (Clemons-twice, Oswalt [who's my favorite], Pettitte, Zambrano, et al) and all his other big stats were at or near the top in all categories. He is a very deserving winner! Anyway, Congrat's again and good luck next year. Hopefully another good battle between the Stros and Cards will come about!

In the future, I'll keep reading (lurking) here for the excellent baseball talk. Living here in Korea, good baseball discussions are hard to come by~~

by SeoulStro on Nov 10, 2005 11:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Thank you for the kind words

I've had pretty good times with most of the Astros fans I've met (watching cubs/cardinals down here in TX is pretty fun, really). When I was 8 or so, my grandpa took me down to the Astrodome a few times. Here's to a good season, and another good division race next year.

Also, are you able to translate these comics?

by Valatan on Nov 11, 2005 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs