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My New Slant on Juan

I've pretty much given up trying to explain my distemper with Encarnacion to his defenders.  I've even admitted that the uneasiness I have is non-logical, or a-logical, whichever fits, and that is it subjective.  But my brain remains restless about it.  Maybe from guilt.  So... I keep trying to explain it to myself.
While watching a little piece on ESPN about the Chicago Bears' quarterback (and his performance in a pre-season game tonight) another idea struck me.  One of the commentators concluded the piece by saying "you fans in Chicago,.. enjoy the roller-coaster ride again this year."

I'm not much of a football fan, and anyway I probably don't need to layer the analogy for you folks.  But it was a 'bingo' moment for my brain.

It is that inexplicable INCONSISTENCY that Juan brings to the field. As I observe him, anyway. {{ like the Bears QB... will do something really neat and then botch something even a rookie QB shouldn't }}

Maybe I've made no progress on my problem tho.  Maybe it is still "how I see it."  But I can't shake my desire that Juan not be a Cardinal.

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The debate so far:
The critics are right, Encarnacion is not a good player, not for the Cardinals, not for any team. His OBP is .331 (ouch), and he has 8 hr's on the year...
His defense is lacadaisical, and he never looks like he is "hustling". His EQA numbers are around "replacement level" (at least on the cards where we have a dearth of fill in outfielders...).
However, the defenders are also right. We got what we payed for... His career numbers are almost identical to his current year, his defense has never been extraordinary. There are probably worse players getting paid more money...
So it's really just kind of a pessimist/optimist debate. You could look at our team, and say "Jezz, why did we pay 5 million to run that piece of junk out there everyday, when we could've run out Ankiel/Duncan/Taguchi/Spizeo/Schumaker etc." Or you could say, "Wow, I'm glad Juan is at least consistent with his career numbers, and isn't pulling a (insert ridiculously underperfoming/overpaid player, aka Johnny Damon, Julio Lugo, Jermaine Dye, Garret Anderson, Carlos Delgado, Shawn Green, Jason Schmidt, Juan Pierre... you get the point )" Oh and btw, that list came only from the first few teams, I'm sure there are other "gems" out there...
So in conclusion, yeah I think it is a perspective issue. And while possibly his day-to-day consistency (that sounds like a Joe Morganism if there ever was one) may not be great, his year to year stats have been consistent, which makes him a unique asset in times when so so many highly played "stars" are just complete busts...

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 2:29 AM EDT reply actions  

there's no more inconsistent player
than jim edmonds. even at his peak, he would got into funks the lasted for 2 or 3 weeks at a time; then he'd come out of it and mash for 2 or 3 weeks.

today, in his dotage, edmonds' disappearances are longer, his periods of potency shorter. he's the classic hot-cold guy, but not many people ever hated him for it.

by lboros on Aug 21, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

just remember......
that, during that same offseason, a lot of people were clamoring for the cards to sign brian giles, he of less offensive output, and double the salary of juan.

i don't have a problem with the guy. yeah, he does some dumb stuff sometimes, but not nearly as much as his critics make it out to be. i could go on about this, but just remember brian giles.

by bigJOE1 on Aug 21, 2007 4:47 AM EDT reply actions  

but thats the thing......
I can totally live with Jim Edmonds hitting 8 HR's and batting .240; however, even though jauns stats are better, he doesnt look like he ever goes balls to the wall to try to make a catch. Sure he is batting .290 something but i dont know how many times he has killed a rally with an inning ending double play. He drops the routine catch and he kills rallies. i dont think we are asking him too much by wanting him to act like he cares.

by Willie51 on Aug 21, 2007 7:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Inning Ending Double Play Leaders
Pujols - 11 (191 PA)
Molina - 8 (103)
Rolen - 7 (134)
Kennedy - 7 (107)
Miles - 6 (106)
Juan - 6 (87)

The mind remembers what you you want it to.

by Just Rope Ball on Aug 21, 2007 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

eh?
The GIDP/PA are roughly the same for all of those guys... including Juan...

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly
we want to remember Juan sucking in those instances, but will forget that others have just as much suckitude since we like their style of play more.  

by Just Rope Ball on Aug 21, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait wait wait...
No one likes the "style" of play of Kennedy or Miles, they get bashed almost as much as Juan does. Plus they are Middle Infielders, not corner outfielders who should be the more productive hitters on the team.
Molina fits into that category also, he is the freaking catcher, AND he's still a better hitter than Juan.
Finally, Rolen is having one of the worst year's of his illustrious career, (and people get pretty pissed about that on the Msg Boards also) and still hitting about the same as Juan.
Finally, by selecting the GIDP stat you've chosen one of the few splits where Juan and Pujols might match up, and yet even while carrying probably 75 extra pounds of bulk, AP still grounds into less double plays (when compared to AB's) then Juan...

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

You said finally twice
I was all finished reading and then you jerked me by the neck to say alittle more.

;P

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

doh...
got a little overexcited there...

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well
my comments was mainly directed towards this: "Sure he is batting .290 something but i dont know how many times he has killed a rally with an inning ending double play."  We normally don't see people complaining about Pujols GIDP's, because we know what he can do.

I wasn't meaning to say that I or others like Kennedy or Miles style (even though I actually did), and I expect Molina to hit into DP being so slow, but I know a lot of people, myself included, who are disillusioned about a particular players ability because of how we perceive they play the game.

For reference, Jimmy has 4 in 96 and Duncan has 2 in 132 but with 37 SO.  

I'm not really a Juan supporter, we knew we would get average production from and average player, but the irrational hatred toward him doesn't make any sense to me.  I don't like paying him for what he does, I would love to unload him, but it seems like some focus on the bad and erase the good from memory.

by Just Rope Ball on Aug 21, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

We can agree on that...
I really summed up my feelings in a longer first post on this diary, and I stand by my statement that it really is a perspective issue.
Yes, Juan isn't Rick "Wind beneath my wings" Ankiel, (or maybe Rick "Flash in the Pan" Ankiel... time will tell), but he also isn't Carlos "15 million for essentially Juan Encarnacion" Delgado

The important stat's in defense of Juan are really his career vs. year averages, and when you look at those you can't help but say "We got what we payed for..."

Oh but seriously, how do Met's fan's still have hair with CarlosD playing for them...

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know what you mean -
yesterday, Brendan Ryan after scoring, was practically jumping around with excitement. I couldn't help but think to myself that it's guys like that who are bringing this team back together.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Aug 21, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, you just have to let it go!
The guy's not worth the heart disease you're giving yourself.  Inconsistency is what makes most mediocre players mediocre.  Everybody has hot streaks, everybody plays well at certain times.  The great players keep those streaks going and minimize the slumps.  The non-great players can't minimize the slumps and it shows in their overall production.

Just decide for a week that you'll direct your attention to some other players. The first couple of days of ignoring Juan will be the hardest, but soon he'll be just another blip on the edge of your radar screen.

"We're sniffing the winning situation."

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2007 8:53 AM EDT reply actions  

well said..
and thank you. The whole Juan-debate has really gotten tiresome, it's time to give it a rest. He is what he is, not great, not horrible,....he's Juan. And like it or not, at least for the time being he's our Juan.
go crazy folks..........

by wwbd on Aug 21, 2007 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Enough!
OK - now you Juan bashers are even admitting that you're irrational! So, I'm finally going to do what I've been too lazy to do throughout my many attempts to defend Juan. My feeling has been that you all don't appreciate the staggering number of clutch, game-changing hits that Juan has contributed this season.  As John Hadley put it in one of these rainout rants - he leads the team in "go ahead rbis".

Since so many of you are so irked by that last flub in the field that you fail to see the season as a whole, let me refresh your memories and take you through the glory and triumph that is Juan. Without him, we would be fighting Houston for 4th place. My research even surprised me.

The Cardinals had dropped two of the first three to Col and desperately needed a split - Juan delivers a go ahead double to put them up for good 4-2.

Tie game w/ cincy, 6th inning, Juan homers to put them up for good, 3-2.

Juan offers a game-changing 3-run homer to put the cardinals up for good against philly, 4-1.

Tie game, 8th inning in Cincy, Juan delivers a clutch single to put the Cardinals up 3-2 and give them the victory.

Remeber when we took 3 of 4 from Ari, well this was game three of that series, 8th inning, we're losing 4-3, and Juan doubles in the tying run, and then scores the winning run (driven in by Rolen).

Same Ari series - Juan took care of all of the scoring in this one - 3 run homer.

The least significant of my findings, but still big - Juan delivers a first inning single to put the cardinals up 2-0 against Florida. You may recall this is the game where Kip wells turned his season around. How much do you think he appreciated those first inning runs?

Tie game, 8th inning in Atlanta, Juan delivers again with the winning RBI to put the cards up for good 2-1.

You all must remember this one - perhaps the most important game of the season. We'd lost 2 of 3 to the Cubs, the first of 4 to the Brewers, and had gone down 6-0. Juan delivered 3 (3!!!!!!) two-out single to cut the lead to 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, setting the stage for the heroics that ensued.

Remember that crazy 5th inning vs. San Diego? Juan delivered the go ahead rbi.

I said I had "felt" this about Juan. These are types of performances that are hard to measure with "clutch" meters and "win shares", but only result from watching this team perform on an everyday basis (as I have). It is clear from above that Juan has delivered GAME-CHANGING hits that have resulted in several victories. Sure his defense could be better, but look at these hits!

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 9:23 AM EDT reply actions  

One more thing
With regard to the root post of this diary. He accomplished this in a span of just over two months. Therefore, in terms of clutch-rbi production, he has been nothing short of CONSISTENT before he was benched for the Rick Ankiel show.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's batting .285 w/Men on with 10 DPs
He's not part of the solution, he's part of the problem.

I watched part of that Bears game and I said to a friend: "Ya know, the Bears have such a good team but yet they have this terrible quarterback.  They've got 2 better QBs sitting the bench but they keep using this guy who can't even take a snap!  Why do teams do this?  It's almost like they want to have a major flaw."

That's how I see the Cardinals.  With Ankiel and Duncan on the bench, it's almost like Tony had to wait until we sucked until the brink to bench Juan and bring up Ankiel.

The difference is night and day with those two.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
You didn't even address the slew of hits cataloged above.

My point is you cannot capture these kinds of contributions from a ".285 with men on" stat (which isn't THAT bad, btw).

His contributions are game-specific. And he has single-handedly offered contribuitions that have made the difference between winning and losing at least 8 times in just over 2 months.  

Some people just don't want to see it.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

And if I posted 15 or 20 game logs
that showed Juan turning a double into a triple that ended up scoring a run, you'd say that those didn't pertain to the outcome of the game.

Or how about Saturday's game?  Looking at the game log, Cardinals had runners at 1st and 2nd and 1 out.  Juan gets a basehit there and it is 1-0 Cardinals early, runners at 1st and 3rd, and Rolen is lifting one of his 4 flyballs to RF away from making it 2-0.

Instead, he hits into an inning ending DP.

The defenders will later say, "Well, Juan went 2 for 3 with a HR!".  Yes, he did.  But that was his 'break even' moment.  That's what Juan is all about.  He's about just breaking even to balance out the mistake he made earlier.  Like the Padres game with the error in RF.  He boots that ball, they score a run.  He then hits a double off the wall to drive in a run.

Congratulations, you've just even'd out the game.  It's his lack of upside that brings the most ire.  That and his inability to play any ball that bounces in the outfield.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

see my challenge
in the main post, Hardcore - produce the game logs. Show they made a difference between winning and losing.

It's not even close.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll see the challenge
but first you have to address some of those claims above.  The Colorado game?  As long as Juan doesn't hit into a DP, Stinnet's single scores 2 right after it.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you talking about the
Colorado game I cite? Juan has no dps and Stinnet didn't play.

In any case, you cannot act as if a Stinnet single would have happened IF there were runners on. Pitchers pitch hitters according to the situation (i.e. are there or aren't there runners on)

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

The first game you cite
May 31, 2007 vs Colorado


St. Louis - Top of 6th Score
Aaron Cook pitching for Colorado            
A Miles grounded out to shortstop.          
S Taguchi walked.                            
S Spiezio flied out to center.                
J Edmonds singled to left, S Taguchi to 2nd.  
S Rolen singled to shallow left, S Taguchi to 3rd, J Edmonds to 2nd.                    
J Encarnacion doubled to deep right center, S Taguchi, J Edmonds and S Rolen scored.        
G Bennett singled to center, J Encarnacion scored.                                      
A Kennedy flied out to left.                  

The Cardinals also scored 7 runs in that game.  This is why the 'Game Winning RBI' stat was dropped by MLB.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

whatever
if you want to downplay the significance of a tie-breaking, two-run double that put the team up for good, that's your prerogative. I think it was a crucial moment in the game. Helped break the game open in what was a tight, pitchers duel through 5.

 

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Single-Handedly?
Only one of those mentioned above was a solo-HR, which by my count is the only way to "single-handedly" score runs for your team... most of the other one's are singles with multiple men on base, that's just hitting a single at an opportune time...
It's undeniable that Juan has had some big hits (most people have...) but the statistical evidence indicates that he is basically consistent with career averages in most AB's, RISP or no RISP...

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair point
on the "single-handedly" aspect, but singles to give your team the lead are still important.

As some stats below show (e.g. 2-out RISP) most people DO NOT have this many CRUCIAL singles (or homers) at opportune times. Remember - this is in just over 2 months of work. It's really remarkable.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really
good debate guys. It's refreshing to see two posters who vehemently disagree but keep the discourse level high. I dig all the numbers you guys are dredging up. As for me, I've really had no emotional reaction to Juan, so my take is "meh." We've had worse; we've had better. He's been clutch a few times; he's been horrible a few times. Whatever. I won't miss him when he's gone, though.

The real disappointment for me this season has been Kennedy.

by rockin redbird on Aug 21, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

With Men on Base
Juan - 285, 325, 394 (BA, OBP, SLG)
Duncan - 277, 390, 601
Ludwick - 250, 337, 424
Edmonds - 237, 318, 333

If your complaining about Juan, whats so good about Edmonds?

by Just Rope Ball on Aug 21, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing, really
that doesn't make Juan any better.  He was brought in to replace a Gold Glove CF, a Gold Glove/great hitter LF and a streaky power hitter in RF.  He, at some point, was supposed to either replace Jim Edmonds in CF, Larry Walker in LF and Reggie Sanders in RF.  

Instead, we keep setting the bar lower in defense of Juan.  Players like Edmonds and Rolen are having terrible offensive years but we AREN'T going to upgrade at either of those positions.  We can, however, upgrade at the corner OF position and luckily we have (Ankiel).

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say he was better
but if you claim that his 285 is part of the problem, how do you claim that the other three would be better?  It would appear that an outfield of Duncan, Juan and Ankiel would be best, but what Jimmy hustles more and goes "balls to the wall".

by Just Rope Ball on Aug 21, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

They are part of the problem as well
with Duncan, Ludwick, Ankiel..hell, I'll throw in Skip, when they match Juan's production there is a chance that they can improve on those numbers.  Juan is who he is: average at best.

Edmonds is clearly a better defender than Juan.  Hustle and grit have nothing to do with it.  No one is more half assed than Edmonds in the outfield, yet he's still a better fly catcher than DoubleintoTriple out there.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whoa, hold on ...
You make it sound like he was "supposed" to recreate the level of play of those other guys.  What he was "supposed" to do is play a corner outfield spot, pretty much the way he has always played, not be the second coming of Jimmy Edmonds.
"We're sniffing the winning situation."

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

WPA agrees with Mass....
Here's the link...

http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Cardinals

Encarnacion is second on the team behind Albert in Win Probability Added, meaning that his hits have been more important to deciding the outcome of games than everyone on the team except Pujols....

Nice essay about WPA here..

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-one-about-win-probability/

Gotta agree with our esteemed colleague from the great state of Massachusettes...
Boomer.

by glamboomer on Aug 21, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Identify who's who
Nitpicky point:  I don't ever really recall Walker playing left, it was usually Reggie in left, Walker in right.

Anyway, on to the real point:

.271 BA, 21 HR, 54 RBI, .340 OBP
.249 BA, 11 HR, 49 RBI, .304 OBP
.278 BA, 19 HR, 79 RBI, .317 OBP
.289 BA, 15 HR, 52 RBI, .384 OBP
.263 BA, 29 HR, 89 RBI, .385 OBP
.257 BA, 19 HR, 70 RBI, .350 OBP

The first is Reggie in his last season as a Cardinal.  He made $4M that year.  

The second is Reggie in his first year with Kansas City, where he made $5M.

The third is Juan's line from last year.  He made $3.5M, less than either of Reggie's salaries.

The 4th is Walker during his last season.  Moderately better average and on-base, but lower HR and RBI, for the bargain price of $12.6M a year(granted, I think some of this was paid by Colorado)

The last two are Jimmy during 2005 and 2006(the year before Juan and the first year with Juan).  Overall better numbers in 2005, but we paid him 10.3M.  His 2006 numbers are pretty comparable overall to Juan's usual line, and he made $12.1M

Now, for career Range Factors(this comparison should be decent, since they're all outfielders, although Jimmy might benefit from being in CF)

Jimmy - 2.66
Juan - 1.99
Larry - 2.21
Reggie - 1.99

So, as we probably would have guessed, Jimmy's got the best range(or possibly he benefits from being in CF, but I think we'll all agree he's probably still got the best range), Larry is 2nd, but Juan vs. Reggie are dead even.

If, as HL said, Juan was brought in to replace one of the departed players, then he's pretty adequately doing that for Reggie.

But we all liked Reggie, because he was always smiling and it seemed like he was putting forth full effort.  And most of us would be happy to see Juan's salary dumped(some of us more than others).

As many people on here are pointing out, most of this is us seeing what we WANT to see out of Juan, not seeing what he actually is.

I understand the desire to see players who are going balls to the wall on every play.  Maximum effort is what we want to teach our kids in all aspects of life, and its one of the easiest lessons to teach through sports.  Furthermore, when you have players like David Eckstein who nearly sprint to first on walks, or when you have players like Albert Pujols who puts his full physical and mental abilities into making himself the best player offensively and defensively he can be, it's easy.  Or even talking about Ankiel, someone who faced adversity and overcame it through hard work and an incredible amount of determination.

That's why it's easy to look at Juan, who looks complacent and lackadaisical most of the time, and not be a fan of his.

Question his effort all you want, and I won't fight you, but if you say he's a complete bum and he's a poor replacement for Reggie Sanders(production-wise), then the numbers, at least on some level, show that on many levels, you're wrong.

by mtalken on Aug 21, 2007 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fairness to Sanders
if that first line is his last season with the Cardinals, he put up those numbers while missing 51 games because of breaking his leg going after a flyball.

I know it's always a 'what if' game when it comes to these sort of things, but had Reggie Sanders not snapped his leg, he was on pace for:

140 Games
454 ABs
32 HRs
78 RBIs
.281 BA
.897 OPS

Should we lower our expectations of Juan because Reggie missed most a third of the season with a broken leg?

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll cherry pick another stat
2-Out RISP

Juan - 286, 324, 429
Pujols - 261, 528, 565
Duncan - 243, 333, 432
Edmonds - 219, 324, 313
Ludwick - 172, 314, 345

by Just Rope Ball on Aug 21, 2007 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

that's a very telling stat
even though it could also be attirbuted to the fact the juan has had less chances than pujols, etc.

even though juan's OBP in those situations is lower (.500+ for AP, wow!), it's the hits that really matter and the average shows that juan is getting those hits (and RBIs) at a higher pace than even pujols.

VEB Fantasy Football League! still looking for one more person!

by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 21, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

look
at Taguchi's numbers for that. I'm pretty sure he'd be dominating all of those guys.

It's all about sample size . . .

I think my main beef with Juan is that when I picture an outfielder, I picture somebody hustling to cover all areas of their field. Consider Chris Duncan, he's not that great, but you can tell that he works his ass off to get to every ball. If Juan Enc played like that, I'd love to have him on my team, but for now Ankiel simply looks like he wants it more.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Aug 21, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

You, my man,
with this comment,

"I think my main beef with Juan is that when I picture an outfielder, I picture somebody hustling to cover all areas of their field. Consider Chris Duncan, he's not that great, but you can tell that he works his ass off to get to every ball. If Juan Enc played like that, I'd love to have him on my team, but for now Ankiel simply looks like he wants it more."

have proved Cardsfaninmass' and my point.

Who cares if he's good and produces.  If he doesn't look like he hustles, then dump him.

by silent_bob on Aug 21, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

what he could
Like so many people have said, Juan is what Juan is.  I think the thing that disappoints me most is that if he just gave more  he could be a much better player and then we wouldn't have to have this discussion. Is it really too much to ask him to hustle?

by mattyfrommo on Aug 21, 2007 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rebuttal: Win Shares
2007 Cardinal Win Shares

... Juan ranks 12th on the team, below Aaron Miles and Scott Spezio.

I believe that Win Shares look more at aggregate stats, and determine how many wins a team should get based on its players' individual numbers, while Win Probability Added actually filters through the game logs and determines a player's "clutchiness" - how much their at bats actually influenced the outcomes of games. I don't believe either reflects on defensive ability. Or perhaps WPA assigns defensive blunders like misplaying fly balls into triples to "team" rather than the player, but I could be wrong.

One way to explain the discrepancy here is to say that Juan is actually getting his hits in key situations, but his overall production just isn't that great. However, THT's "clutch" batting stats say just the opposite.

It appears even statisticians can't figure out what they think of Juan.

by taiko on Aug 21, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly my point on stats -
which is why going back to game-specific contributions sometimes reveals more than any number would - no one could deny the "bigness" of many of those hits. Because of not only the time they came in the game, but also the crucial times they came in the season (e.g. Colorado game, Arizona games, Milwaukee game).

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, someone can
and I did deny the 'bigness' of some of those hits.

Also, Juan is sitting pretty in the #4 spot.

That's another problem with Juan.  When he returned from the DL, he occupied a spot that should have been given to Chris Duncan for much of the season.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm done trying to convince you Hardcore
You are, indeed, a Hardcore Juan hater....there's no reaching you.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

and you are an apologist
it's pretty simple.

No worries.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could his lower "Win Share"
have something to do with the fact he's only played in just over 70 games?

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 21, 2007 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Juan's D is pretty good..
Due to missed playing time, Juan doesn't qualify amongst the "leaders", but his .864 RZR (revised zone rating) would put him 4th in RF in the National League...

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/stats/players/index.php?playerId=320&firstName=Juan&lastNa me=Encarnacion

Boomer.

by glamboomer on Aug 21, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, his RZR of .864
would make him 9th in the NL for RF, just barely above Brian Giles.  That's assuming that other players wouldn't qualify higher.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

He also has the 3rd highest
number of fielding errors for a RF in quite a few fewers attempts.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right.
I don't know what I was looking at.
Boomer.

by glamboomer on Aug 21, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hardcore
You are basically saying that you can get the same level of production from Ankiel/Skip/Ludwick/Duncan that you get from Juan right? If that is indeed true, then why wouldn't we dump Juan. I understand the defense of Juan, in particular the line we got what we paid for. But why pay 5 mil (Juan) when you can pay >1mil. (Skip/Lud/Ank/whoever)Furthermore you can use that 4 mil saved toward signing a new pitcher or whatever. Makes sense to me.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Aug 21, 2007 7:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Thats my take
Nothing wrong with the guy, just not worth the $$$ to our team.

by DriverZn on Aug 21, 2007 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well Kind of:
Skip/Ludwick/Ankiel were widely unproven at the beginning of the year, so it'd be hard to go into the season saying "We should just platoon three guys that have never really played in the Majors..."

by duncansarmy on Aug 21, 2007 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what's funny?
I really think I have pin-pointed this whole debate. I was thinking about this today and I came to the realization that I have never heard Juan talk. I have no idea what he sounds like. I only read what he said. That's probably why for me anyway that i have no connection with him.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Aug 23, 2007 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

the way he talks is unclear
he mumbles like kip wells just with an accent

by kyle man on Aug 25, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks to all...
and I guess I survived my first attempt at a diary posting.

Maybe I am progressing on the road to chilling out.  One bottom line is that MY team, the Cardinals, employ 25 men (players) at a time... and there is no way I can like them all equally.

Finally... reading through the thread reminded me of an anecdote about my mother.  It's fair to say that she had no great love for George Hendrick (for many Encarnacion-esque reasons) BUT... when he stepped to the plate on Tv, she would say, "c'mon Gee-o."

by CurtFlood on Aug 21, 2007 9:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Great conclusion
and interesting debate you were able to get going.

by nycardfan on Aug 22, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

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