going going . . . . .gone?
by lboros on Jul 19, 2007 9:51 AM EDT
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Printwells' unexpected line of zeroes provided a nice little tonic at the end of a day of bad news . . . . emphasis on "little." i'm not trying to deny him due credit for a good game --- it's nice to see him show everybody that he does have some skill --- but it ain't much consolation on a day when the ETA for chris carpenter's return shifted from late 2007 to 2008 or beyond. even la russa, notoriously tight-lipped about injury matters, let it slip that more surgery might be in the offing --- and if tony's talking about it, it's probably 90 percent certain to happen. will carroll described the situation as "bleak" at Baseball Prospectus yesterday; another injury know-it-all, rick wilton, suggested somewhat more hopefully at Hardball Times that it might just be scar tissue. i'm dubious of the latter, because i've never heard that scar tissue causes the kind of swelling carp is experiencing. tightness, yes; discomfort, yes; major swelling, no. maybe i'm wrong; i hope i am. if that's the case, please correct me in the comments thread.
i can't think of a precedent for this situation in the years i've been following the cardinals --- a career-threatening injury to a transcendent player. well, there was the kile death, but that one goes in a special category. if carpenter's injury should prove to be career-ending or even merely career-diminishing, it would be both a greater, and a lesser, blow than the loss of kile. it would be lesser in the sense that the personal tragedy of kile's death rendered the loss of his talent almost meaningless; a serious injury to carp would be a drag, but it wouldn't be a tragedy. however, if we limit the discussion strictly to talent, the loss of carpenter would be the greater one. carp is the only st louis pitcher aside from bob gibson to win a cy young award; he ranks first on the franchise's all-time leaderboard in won-loss percentage, first in k/bb ratio, second in whip, second in strikeouts per 9 innings, and 6th in era+. he has a postseason record of 5-1, an era of 2.53; that the cardinals beat the mets without a win from him is well-nigh miraculous.
if he can't return from this injury to pitch at that level, it'll probably be a long time before we see another cardinal hurler attain it. . . . . . but maybe it's not hopeless. john smoltz had a rash of shoulder injuries in his late 20s and underwent TJ surgery on his elbow at age 32. he returned to the mound at age 34, and in the seven years since that operation he has gone 39-21 as a starter with a 3.20 era --- and saved 154 games to boot. he's made four all-star teams and twice finished in the top 10 in the cy young voting. in other words, he picked up right where he left off. so even if carpenter has to go under the knife again, the possibility might still exist --- theoretically, anyway --- that he can reclaim his place among the league's elite pitchers.
if it's arthritis --- well, thanks for the memories, big guy.
on to other matters. bernie ripped la russa in his column today. a lot of you won't like what he wrote; indeed, some of you don't like anything bernie writes. he may even be less popular than the targets of his criticism today, la russa and juan encarnacion. but i urge you to give this column some consideration; don't knee-jerk hate it just because you don't like the writer. and don't read it as a blanket condemnation of la russa, because it isn't. the point of the column is not to dismiss tlr's long list of contributions to the franchise, nor to deny his many strengths as a baseball manager. bernie's asking, with justification, to what degree this team's lax play results from the manager's own malaise. tony has been, to put it mildly, a tad moody this year; "distracted" is probably a better term. you can understand why, i suppose --- the dui, the injury to carpenter, the death of hancock, the lousy play of the team. but let's not make excuses for the man; he never tolerates excuses from his own players, after all. it has been a tough season, but la russa has made it tougher on himself by picking fight after fight --- and not only with the media. how many of his own players has he exchanged sharp words with in the press over the past 12 months? a quick list off the top of my head: pujols (the little all-star flap), edmonds, rolen, reyes, wainwright, preston wilson . . . . who'm i leaving out? and those are only the clashes that took place in public. tony always seems to initiate them; he has manifested the air of a man harboring deep frustrations, which bubble to the surface unpredictably and in a fashion that makes no sense to anyone else. they're stupid little spats, the kind of crap that happens in an unworkable marriage (or in the bad moments of a workable one) --- almost always over meaningless bullshit. people often manifest this kind of behavior when they feel they've lost an important battle; they look for proxy fights, ones they can win --- because they're powerless to win the one that really matters.
in my opinion, the fight that really matters to tlr --- the one he has already lost --- is the battle over the future of the organization. he wants to stick with the tried-and-true formula --- sign or trade for established veterans, and work in a few kids around the margins --- but the organization wants to emphasize player development. it's no secret that tony's pissed off about that; it has been reported both locally and nationally. i think he's misplacing his anger, directing it at players and reporters.
if my armchair psychoanalysis is even close to being right, then tony's got to go. of course, if it's right then he probably will go voluntarily --- but if he doesn't, he should be shown the door. the field manager has to be committed to the organizational philosophy; if he's not, no good can result. if he were fired, it wouldn't mean that tony was a bad manager in the past; it would mean he's not the right one going forward.
think of it this way: almost every cardinal fan considered it unthinkable that the team would let edmonds depart after last season; it's now pretty clear that he was the centerfielder of the past, not the future. likewise, the contract extension that locked up carpenter through age 36 was universally applauded hereabouts, based on his past performance. but past performance doesn't guarantee . . . . well, you know the line. tony was the right manager; that doesn't mean he is the right manager anymore.
alrighty, then --- goodbye to the manager and the ace pitcher. is that any way way to start things off the day after a shutout win? let's end this post where it began, on a small happy note: BP's kevin goldstein likes bryan anderson a lot. he rates the cardinal farmhand as the 2d-best catching prospect in baseball:
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Precedent...
I've been reading Lowenfish's biography of Branch Rickey. It's quite good. I've been meaning to write a diary about it, but I think you gave me a good idea to look back at Cardinal performance immediately after the other 9 rings.
Great post....
So, w/ the Smoltz analogy in mind, can we seriously be claiming TJ surgery is a 'best case'?? I guess compared to an 'arthritic' condition?
If someone has the time, I'd love to see a comprehensive diary post objectively detailing the record of the cardinals medical staff. It seems to me that they've had a negative hand in the fall of Rolen, Mulder, and now Carp.
Perhaps, if Tony leaves, they can just leave right with him.....
I second that motion -
With so much of what was great crumbling around us, it's good to look forward with clear eyes. (and remember October '06)
by Urban Pawnee on Jul 19, 2007 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Cards approach to injuries
Apack
Facts be damned!
Facts can be used to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts, schmacts.
-Philip J. Frye
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget Edmonds
i disagree
I think flatly stating that Tony must leave is oversimplifying the situation. There have obviously been some differences of opinions on how to address the needs of the team, but in reality it's been injuries and a lack of available free-agent talent and replacement veterans that's plagued the cardinals. Even if Jocketty had addressed Tony's desires and acquired an expensive free-agent, where would we be? Jason Schmidt & Carpenter on the DL? Tony probably realizes this and Jocketty has got to be the voice of reason. Just because TLR's frustrated doesnt mean he doesn't realize the lack of available options. Give him time. TLR has shown himself to be innovative and adaptable over the years.
actually, he's not very adaptable
i do agree with you, though, that the team was wise to stay out of the free-agent market this year. i am down with the player-development approach. but i don't think tony is, or ever will be.
Mumbo? Perhaps. Jumbo? Perhaps not!
Innovative? In the past, yes. Adaptable? I just don't see it.
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
his on-field managing methods wont change, but
Will there be some kicking and screaming? yup.
Will the personality conflicts get in the way progress? we're already seeing that.
Ultimately the question is: Are the differnces in personality & approach incapable of being bridged or already irreparably damaged? we'll see. But to render the situation absolutely destined for implosion... premature.
Maybe i'm just being blindly optimistic.
but why should the team opt for
maybe they can make progress in spite of those things, but why would you choose them if you didn't have to? i would expect progress to take place more swiftly, and more surely, under a field manager who's already in synch with the upper management.
Second
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
LaRussa and young talent = bad idea?
Another thing to consider as we discuss TLR staying/going and the transition to a player development organization - read Three Nights in August. Partcularily the section where Pujols (the young talent) has injured his elbow and the physicians have told LaRussa he should not throw. LaRussa feverishly works to keep Pujols in the game despite the risk. Being competitive is one thing, but, risking someone's health to win is a bit much. Yes, Pujols said he wanted to play, but, he was young and thought on some level that he bulletproof.
by cards n catfish on Jul 20, 2007 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Manager
I would be thrilled to have him as our manager.
Girardi???
I just don't see why in the world people think
I like him, but what he seems good at is firing up or smacking around young kids. Do you see Pujols, Edmonds, or Rolen enjoying that?
Again, I like him. But I don't see him as a fit here for the same reason I don't see him as a fit for the Chicago vacancy last winter.
No no no....
by cardschinmusic on Jul 19, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure where the love fest
The media's been in love w/ Girardi forever, and he may be a great manager. But it's too early to anoint him the answer, and the same goes for Oquendo.
Oquendo
My remarks weren't meant
lboros
Lb as a doctor
Patient: You say I have the flu, doctor?
Dr. Larry: Yep, I'm sorry.
P: Well, just make it quick, then.
DL: What? What do you mean?
P: Just don't make me suffer. Get it over with.
DL: But, you just have the flu. Go home, get some rest, drink plenty of fluids, you'll be fine.
P: No, I understand what you said. It's over. Just do it. Tell my wife I love her.
DL: Alright, then...
(sounds of cranial saw being used in wildly inappropriate ways)
and... Scene.
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
the key to good bedside manner
people with much greater expertise than me are reporting that this sounds like a worst-case scenario --- not a mere case of the flu, figuratively speaking. he has had his arm examined by three doctors this week. that should tell us all that the problem, whatever it is, probably doesn't have a simple fix.
I don't want honesty
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
And yes,
Ice cream, dammit!
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, my main reaction
re my bedside manner ---- i admit, it's probably a bit on the abrupt side. just my nature, i guess --- hope-for-best / prepare-for-worst.
Anyway
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Your comparison,
I believe he just struck out 12 batters in his first start back.
I am an optimist by nature, but I do not believe that the sky is falling on Carp just yet.
Injury Comp
Morris vs. Carp
Carpenter has already had the shoulder surgery, which is the one that usually has a higher occurence of reduced effectiveness afterward, and has been great since. Now the elbow appears to be a problem. Tommy John has a very high success rate of maintaining a pitcher's stuff afterward, so I would hope, if that's the case, that Carpenter might actually have a little better chance than Morris of remaining at least fairly near his performance levels.
Of course, if it's some sort of arthritic degeneration, I have no idea what that would mean...
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
come on, you gotta give us more than that.
by ortic jones on Jul 19, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
His source saw
who else?
>>a quick list off the top of my head: pujols (the little all-star flap), edmonds, rolen, reyes, wainwright, preston wilson . . . . who'm i leaving out?<<
TLR's gratuitous shot at Eli Marrero.
Tony & his final year in Oakland
May drop a line on our blog brothers in green & yellow to get their take.
Sigh...
The Cardinals desperately need to figure out something different for a staff physician, I think. The record of this group, led by Paletta, seems to be coming down firmly on the wrong side of the Hippocratic Oath. I have very little idea if it has to do with the medical side, or if the organisation and management are the chief causes of many of the problems, (rushing players, pushing for non surgical treatments against doctor recommendations, etc.) but the asset management practices involved in the treatment of player injuries would get me, and I'm sure many others here, shown the door immediately at my job. (And for the record, nothing in my work world is worth $80 million.)
I'm even having a hard time getting excited about the Bryan Anderson stuff. While this is the sort of player who normally sends me into absolute paroxysms of joy, I have the sneaking suspicion that the type of catcher this org likes is the same type they already have, and Anderson will quite likely get his shot somewhere else in a year or too. Hope I'm wrong, though.
Also, I hate Kip Wells. I think I'm developing some variant of Stockholm Syndrome from watching him pitch.
I agree with you on Tony big time, Larry. I've felt the same way for quite a while now. The time has come to move on.
I'm sorry, Kip. You seem like an awfully talented guy, and you sure are handsome. Your fastball was beautiful last night. Please don't ever leave us.
See? This sucks.
Carp/Tommy John
In my opinion, with how much (or how little) we know about Carp's rehab after surgery, there is no reason to think that there was/is a ligament issue. I find it hard to fathom that the UCL ligament wasn't seen in plain view by Paletta when he scoped out Carp's joint a few months back.
Furthermore, if Paletta did see ligamentous issues (stretching/fraying, etc), there is absolutely no reason why the training staff would have proceeded full steam ahead with the aggressive throwing protocol that they put Carp on.
Could Carp have torn the UCL ligament when throwing off the mound during his rehab starts? Maybe. Is it likely? I think not.
That's all I got. I really have no clue as to what his setback may be caused by. I am skeptical about the Tommy John talk. Take my opinion or leave it.
I was wondering this as well
Perhaps the MRI isn't showing any damage inside the elbow and whenever they test the ligament, it shows no trouble, yet the swelling still pops up. Maybe it is the fact that they can't FIND what is wrong is the reason he is seeing all the doctors.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
A legit possibility
It is scary, though. If you remember F. Liriano, they never saw a ligament tear, and he ended up having TJS anyways. The difference there, though, is that Carp never was diagnosed with medial elbow pain or with a "forearm flexor strain."
I still contend that Paletta had to have looked at the UCL personally while he scoped out the elbow. That's standard procedure.
Could Paletta believe it is scar tissue
What is the SOP for scar tissue? Another surgery (wouldn't that create more scar tissue)?
Perhaps they are visiting the best doctors to go over an approach on how to remove/breakup the tissue in the least 'downtime' possible.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
We're all speculating here
We are all speculating, but one thing that sort
Dr. Paletta
Paletta is a well-respected orthopod. Teams have their own doctors. James Andrews has made a living in Birmingham. He doesn't have an affiliation with a team. He's used (often) for second opinions as well as for major surgeries.
Believe it or not, it does come down to the patient's choice in some cases.
Great post, BTW LB
Bernie has been a JuanE backer for 2 years now. This, from what I remember, is the first time that he's bashed him. Juan is a good athlete and an above average player. All the numbers confirm this. My frustration with him is that he could probably be significantly better if he didn't rely on his God-given talent and worked harder.
What a mess this season has turned out to be - on the field and off.
Man, Bernie kills my view yesterday
"We're all too willing to push aside fair-minded values, forgive and forget, and gloss over things as long as an athlete performs well in the next game. Get a couple of hits; get a free pass."
I must be just another fan full of double standards.
Spoooooooky -
Man, Lou runs a different ship.
Signed,
Obervant-Card-Fan-Stuck-In-Cub-Market
by Urban Pawnee on Jul 19, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Now, make no mistake
Sir, you are correct ...
Having lived through the day-to-day minutae of Dusty's demise, I'm experiencing deja vu.
by Urban Pawnee on Jul 19, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
When Juan doubled in the first last night
And Pujols did the same thing last night that Juan did the previous night by not sliding into home on that dp that was lined off of Willis. If he slides, he's safe.
That said, neither Pujols nor anyone in MLB would have been safe on the liner to Ramirez the previous night. Everyone would have stopped running as soon as they saw it go into his glove. Then he had to restart. He had no chance!
no way
I was terrified he'd try to run the catcher over and get hurt... I was actually thankful that he didn't slide.
Now, yesterday when he didn't run to first on the line drive that got dropped, THAT made me mad.
medical mysteries......
The Cards medical staff seems to follow a step by step procedure that prolongs the eventual bottom line diagnosis and the medical procedure needed to deal with it....and therefore recovery. Is that the way of the sports world now?
Prior and Wood should be pitching, if the Cubs surgeons and medical staff have as much control over the health of those arms as we think the cards medical staff should have with carp, Mulder, Edmunds, Rolen etc etc.
Or maybe, its the agents that control this process more so than we'll ever know...steps to protect high paid clients and prevent a rush to judgement that might further jeopardize their health. Millions at stake?
by cardschinmusic on Jul 19, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions
Arthritis
Ok.....
by cardschinmusic on Jul 19, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed...
LaRussa's a win-now guy. He's a terrible choice to lead a long-term rebuilding project.
The idea of "firing"...
Maybe
"There's lots of bench players, so Tony can double switch all day long... Everybody there is gritty and scrappy... Walt can make deals with all the other GMs all day long. Every day they put on the winter meetings at noon.n I wish you could see it, son, but they don't allow visitors. It's really the best thing for them."
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
quoting his post yesterday
Carpenter saw Dr. George Paletta on Monday, and all signs seem to be negative. There are rumors that Paletta wasn't the first doctor Carpenter saw----as of deadline, that could not be confirmed. [ed note: it later was confirmed.] From the sound of every source I could reach, things sound bleak. Again, there are little or no hard facts that I could lay my hands on. On the heels of this winter's extension, any significant problem, whether ligamentous or arthritic, would be along the lines of the worst-case scenario.
In today's BP Rundown...
Carrol promised more details in an Under The Knife piece today or tomorrow, adding "this is more than a setback, this is a problem that's going to go on. Now we're dealing with more than just bone spurs, more than just a simple arthritic condition."
Altcheck
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Kremcheck is the Cincinnati guy
Kremcheck
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Kremchek
Altcheck (sp?) I believe, is the Mets team doc. He worked on Mulder's shoulder.
Dr. James Andrews is only the top name for all sports medicine injuries. He gets all of the big names' second opinions. He is out of Birmingham.
carroll also says in the rundown today
link: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/radio/
click the "download the july 19 rundown" --- he addresses carpenter right off the bat, in the first 30 seconds of the show
TJ surgery
It's a fairly radical situation, usually used only to correct severe situations relating to excessive nut busting on various object. (Babies, etc.)
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
I sacrificed top quality for rapidity.
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Crap
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
i just have to say this
by bigcardsfan5 on Jul 19, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
TLR has always seemed to me
As for the ugliness that is 2007, I've seen damn few great teams whose decline was NOT ugly. I'm going to try to look at the rest of this year, and probably next year, more clinically and less emotionally.
But it will be exciting to watch the NEXT great Cardinal team be built.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 19, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
You know,
I really just don't think the guy has the mindset to help in developmental stage of players.
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a different world today...
Going Out On Top
At the end of October I wondered why tlr wouldn't stop with the WS. But it became clear that going out on top means riding the glow of champion through opening day and the asg. But for tlr, and his years to gain acceptance in stl, it is also clear that he really wants the all time club record for w's that is presntly held by Red Schoendienst. He needs another 22 wins to surpass, and I don't think anybody will keep that from happening, even if it takes to the end of september.
I happen to like many of the things tlr does as a field manager, in particular plays like the suicide squeeze, and use of the bench players via the double switch. He's had a good run, like the MV3 and Carp. Time to plan on turning the page, bringing on new talent, and new leadership.
by Birds on the Bat on Jul 19, 2007 11:12 AM EDT reply actions
Paletta
I think that if Rolen requires more surgery, Paletta should be fired.
Thoughts?
This is an ongoing theme...
I'm surprised at the willingness of people to criticize medical situations for which there is very little information provided. Not saying Paletta is great, but on what basis can we judge his performance?
Blaming the Docs
Whenever a player is put on the DL and told to rest his bloody stump, I think that may be the Cardinals, and not the doctors, who are making that call. I'm not sure, though.
by the red baron on Jul 19, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I see your point, but
It just seems as though, with every major injury, there are three stages with the Cardinals:
- The injury and the first diagnosis.
- The attempted comeback/rehab - even playing.
- The reinjury/admittance that it didn't work leading to a second diagnosis and another solution.
If I make a multi-million dollar investment in an asset for my business, and that asset develops a problem - then I owe it to my investors to correct the problem. Part of that problem, to me, is that when it comes to injuries, they don't make sure that they have the right opinion on how to fix it the first time.
I support the Cardinals with my time and money - I invest in them. How are they repaying my investment by not correctly diagnosing issues with their assets the first time? This is in direct correlation to the only thing the Cardinals owe their fans - trying to put the best product on the field that the business can put together.
Yep!
"The Cards medical staff seems to follow a step by step procedure that prolongs the eventual "bottom line diagnosis and the medical procedure needed to deal with it....and therefore recovery. Is that the way of the sports world now? "
Prior and Wood should be pitching, if the Cubs surgeons and medical staff have as much control over the health of those arms as we think the Cards medical staff should have with Carp, Mulder, Edmunds, Rolen etc etc."
"Or maybe, its the agents that control this process more so than we'll ever know...steps to protect high paid clients and prevent a rush to judgement that might further jeopardize their health. Millions at stake? "
Its the days and tmes were living in ...
by cardschinmusic on Jul 20, 2007 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions
DeWitt
He said that as far as Jocketty, he has no idea where the rumors of him leaving are coming from. He is not being forced out. Lunhow was given duties that weren't Walt's. DeWitt wanted somone to handle player development on the draft, international and all minor league levels. He says 'one man can't do both'.
As far as going to Cincy, Walt is under contract and he wouldn't believe that his close friends in Cincy would tamper with Walt while he is still with the Cardinals. There is no friction between DeWitt and Jocketty and there is room to make the team better for this year while doing so for next year. He will increase payroll for the right types of players.
When it comes to LaRussa, he says this year isn't Tony's fault and he won't be fired over it. If Tony wants to come back next year, just like every year, the job is his.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
I listened to the Dewitt interview
I think last night cemented his trust in Ryan
This past week, he has played Skip and Ryan a good number of innings. He has gone to Cavazos and Cate, too. He's got Wainwright as his Ace.
As far as the guys down at Memphis, I don't think he'll ever 'dump' players from the big league roster to bring them up. If someone gets injured or they change places with another MILB player, then we have to worry about him playing them. However, a guy like Ankiel is going to have trouble cracking an outfield with Juan, Chris, Jim and Ludwick.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
For the unrelenting optimists
IP R ER HR BB SO ERA
25.0 8 6 0 8 19 2.19
Turning the corner...with one (horrific) setback?
Your little data slice sure does look tempting. That 25.0 IP span covers 7 appearances, 4 in relief and 3 starts. The only appearance in which he DIDN'T give up a mere 0 or 1 ER was the 1.0 IP Philly debacle.
Here are his splits for the period:
IP H 2B 3B HR BB SO IBB HBP GDP BAA OBA SLG
25 22 6 2 0 8 19 2 2 2 .234 .308 .340
That looks pretty good. Conveniently remove the one "anomolous" (and disastrous) Philly inning, and his numbers are stellar. But even without looking sideways at the time period, it's fairly compelling.
Does anyone NOT think he deserves another couple of starts to see if this is a real adjustment rather than just a mirage?
I'll be honest
Same here
Remind anyone of a certain pitching prospect currently toiling down in Memphis, by any chance?
Excellent point
Carp
Obviously, no one wants to see this happen, but I was curious as to what the organization's responsibility is.
If he is not 'usable' by the team
Meaning we'd have 'ACE' money to use on somebody.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think we can really know
My understanding is that these insurance contracts are pretty individualized. It is very hard in the abstract to know whether or not insurance will pick up the tab. For instance there may be certain conditions, such as prior injuries, that insurance would not pick up the tab for. Also they may have only been able to pick up insurance for the first few years. I just don't think we can know. A lot will depend on what the exact injury is as well as what coverage was actually secured.
Best case scenario is that they will have "Ace" money available, but I'm not certain that is the case.
My biggest fear
-about the Card's doctors being lousy. I agree with you just can't tell what is going on. Just reading the Goold article today, you wonder who is intervening. Is there a culture (set by TLR) about hiding or playing through injuries. In that article he seems very opinionated about what treatments should be done. You just hope that his knowledge or his perception of his knowledge doesn't push players into making wrong decisions (eg. playing when they shouldn't, not resting enough, incomplete treatment, not coming forward early enough with injuries).
-Last, lets say Tony, Walt and Dunc all leave this season. Where do you go from there? Chance are that Lundhow gets the job. We can expect him to have a preference towards younger players based upon his current position. You probably do not want someone who has never managed in the minors. That persononality (Dusty, Girardi, etc.) seems to have a hard time integrating younger players, which would have to be part of the next regime. So once again, whom? Maloney and Miller? Jose?
This is what scares me, getting the wrong guy to manage the next phase of the franchise.
Girardi didn't have a problem with young players
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Worse than imagined
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/ten-things-i-didnt-know-last-week40/
someday we'll all be adept at the link abreviation thing.
by Birds on the Bat on Jul 19, 2007 12:06 PM EDT reply actions
What am I looking for
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The graphic at the bottom of the article
As you can see, the Cards are at -7,312.
Your post undermines Bernie's main point
He's raking TLR over the coals because TLR doesn't publicly criticize his players and needs to rebuke them more sharply in the press; Bernie thinks TLR is cowardly for providing cover for his players and taking the easy road of talking with them privately. You are saying that Tony has lost it, evidenced by the way he has been picking fights and publicly criticizing his players. You guys are actually saying opposite things.
Bernie is also mostly concerned with media relations and he's been harping on this all year. You're right, many readers are beginning to hear Bernie's ongoing complaints as defensive and self absorbed (self aggrandizing?) and wish he would get back to baseball. This doesn't seeem to be your main concern, except that it points to TLR's "moodiness".
So I guess your main reason for recommending Bernie's article is to show us that TLR has a temper and that you and Bernie both think he should go.
TLR's temper has been around forever. No news there. And your wanting him to go has also been voiced frequently, and with growing frustration, since the Reyes dust-up. No news there either. As to rifts in the organziation, that's based on rumor and conjecture. Strauss and Gordo both believe it's up to Tony whether he stays or goes--given what he's done for St. Louis, the choice is his.
Is this deserving of a full day's discussion as the central post or would it have been more appropriately placed in a side-bar diary? It's an interesting discussion. But can it be sustained all day?
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 12:41 PM EDT reply actions
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed?
Not really sure what your problem is with today's post, but I found it perfect for the current situation. I'm as down as any fan about this year's team, but I prefer to keep my negative views to myself.
Since you didn't check the number of
94.
I'll be damned. 94. That's a pretty good day for most sports blogs.
Bernie
by boredatwork on Jul 19, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
he missed the point...
More indefensible (and more in-line with the VEB post) is TLR's seemingly random disposition towards his players... Edmonds, Reyes, Wells, Rolen, etc. It was sad to read the Bernie article purely because there are so many legitimate reasons to be angry with TLR, and he hit on none of them....
by duncansarmy on Jul 19, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
nycardfan, there are nearly 100 comments
you say "[my] wanting [tony] to go has also been voiced frequently, and with growing frustration, since the Reyes dust-up." show me one instance where i voiced the opinion that tony needs to go, before today.
nycarfan is right though
by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 19, 2007 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
yes and no
this type of thing, combined with his silly battles vs reporters, leave the impression that tony is just lashing out randomly, and that something else must lie at the root of his frustration. there no longer seems to be any rhyme nor reason to his "code."
I disagree with Tony (somewhat)
As for Reyes/Wellemeyer, I don't know if I can come up with a viable explanation for his actions. The only thing I can posit is that Wellemeyer has been kicked around a few organizations already and would more than likely have been humbled some time ago. LaRussa may feel that Reyes needs to ... erm ... well, crap, I don't know what he's thinking with Anthony. Maybe it's Flatbill's attitude that needs an adjustment, maybe it's a completely misguided vision by Duncan of how Sophie should pitch, maybe it's a combination of both - who frelling knows?
I'm sure Tony has his reasons for how he treats each of his players. It's just human nature that prevents him handling everyone the same.
FWIW
And it doesn't justify him lashing out at the media for asking legitimate questions.
It's been a sore spot with me for awhile the
holy crap, dude.
the number one rule of public speaking.... "KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE." you obviously forgot this or were completely ignorant of it to begin with.
by busch league on Jul 19, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If this is a real place of discussion
Yesterdays blog had excellent debate, disagreement, and passion, and it covered new territory. That's what happens a lot on VEB and I simply prefer debates that takes us into new topics of discussion.
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Covering new topics
The only stuff that can be considered new on here is breaking stories (trades, injuries, etc.), last night's game (a slight twist on the same old stuff), and some idiot spewing out some crazy premise of combining baseball with Premier League Football (that idiot would be me).
So unless there is some monumental trade proposal in the rumor mill that we hadn't considered or rattling off the facts from a game last night, we're always discussing "old business". Approaching Kip Wells' (in)effectiveness or LaRussa's penchant for platoon (dis)advantages from yet another angle, slightly different from the last story about it, is what our expectation should be. Not the impossible standard that Larry and his cadre of guest bloggers have set over the past couple of years.
i, for one, welcome lboros
I didn't ask whether the post would attract
I saw a logical disconnect between lboros' post and Bernie's article which I thought should be pointed out. Only one person has acknowledged that logical problem and no one has denied it. Also, no one has said anything about today's VEB post covering new ground. Where there's passion, there's endless discussion. That doesn't mean it's taking us into any new territory.
And to the one poster who enquired: No, I didn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed. I woke up thinking about the win last night and how nice it was to finally to see Wells' "electric stuff" dominate a game and how great Brendan Ryan played third base. I woke contemplating future possibilites as I'm anxiously waiting for news about Carpenter.
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
so start a diary about wells' outing
or come up with some "new ground" you would like to discuss, and put that in a diary.
but don't whine about how you didn't like my choice of subjects. i don't work for you.
I was pointing out a logical problem
Relax. I'm not a lead or side poster and don't want to be--I don't have the time. How about allowing discussion that respectively challenges the logic of a leader's post without demanding that the person then take additional time to start a whole new diary? It's just a little bit of criticism.
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
if you had left it at that ---
but your comment didn't merely point out the conflict between me and bernie. you went on to question whether it was even "deserving" of discussion. in your mind it wasn't deserving; whatever. you're not my editor, but if you want to express your opinion about that, go for it. but then don't get your back up when others --- including me --- exercise their right to disagree with you about that.
stop playing the victim. every time you come onto this site and people disagree with you, you get your feelings hurt --- and then your next gambit is to start accusing me of being some sort of tyrant who is intolerant of criticism and quashes free discussion. if my blog is really so unwelcoming to you, and your right of expression is so badly circumscribed here, then stop posting. the cardinal blogosphere is huge, and there are many other places that you might find more to your liking.
by the way --- i'm still waiting for you to document your assertion that i have been calling long and loud for la russa's ouster. in fact, today is the first time i've ever done it --- wouldn't that meet your desire for "new ground"?
i am not sure...
by bigcardsfan5 on Jul 19, 2007 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I posted lots of comments yesterday
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
wow, you read a lot into my comments
Of course I'm not your editor and you are not my editor. Perhaps we can leave it at that and not toss around generalized characterizations like "vicitm" and "tyrant" so freely.
I'm not going to get into a never-ending escalation with you. If you don't recall saying it's time for TLR and Dunc to go in your many laments about Reyes and the failure to develop young players, then we'll leave it at "we remember things differently."
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, that was some seriously condescending
by BTown Birds fan on Jul 19, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
yea well that makes two of us
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
nycard, if one of your students
i'll accept criticism that has a basis in fact. but your assertion that i have been campaigning for tony/dave's ouster has no such basis. the fact that you can't admit your error tells me what type of academic you are.
well that just
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
yes you have more pressing concerns
and stop dodging, already. the facts don't support your position; i've asked you 4 or 5 times to document your assertion, and every time you change the subject. why not just admit that you overreached?
take a look at my posting times
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
whether i "gutted" bernie's article
i'm not dodging that issue; i clarified myself twice, here and here.
next time you post something here, i hope you'll do a better job with your facts. and, since you are a busy person with more important things to do, i would hope you'll be open to those of us who do have time to stay on top of these facts. if somebody points out that your facts are not correct, you might try saying "i stand corrected" next time, instead of clinging to a position that can't be supported.
Why have you put my user information page
by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha
That, or admin hung your profile out for public humiliation and mockery.
Really?
by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and that is funny...
by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions
It is a sort of weird way to refer
I think Larry's point
If you feel that you would rather discuss something else, please start a diary. If another commentor wants to further that discussion, they can do that. And I'm sure that, if your topic (or any other) draws enough interest, Larry would be willing to "promote" it to main post status so it gets the attention it deserves.
The bloggers here have one responsibility: to generate a post that he can speak of intelligently. If he can stimulate discussion from it, all the better. If you want to talk about something else, bring it up yourself, wait for someone else to do it, or go somewhere else. (The latter would be a shame, as you've been a valued member of this community otherwise.)
Thanks, that's probably what I should have
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The very nature
Doesn't make it any less relevant.
That's not at all what Bernie wrote
My only criticism w/ Bernie's take is that we have no idea what was said to Juan and Albert privately. For all we know, Juan was fined for failing to slide into 2nd base. Bernie is absolutely correct when he said that Tony is wrong in directing his criticism at the members of the media rather than members of the team. Publicly ripping a member of the media who asks about Pujols not running out the line drive is off-base, and Bernie was right in saying so.
Besides, it's LB's blog. If he wants to devote a daily thread to saying why Tony needs to go, that's his prerogative.
I should add
LB's comments are that Tony's lashing out has been inconsistent and misdirected and his opinion is that that has resulted from Tony's frustration over a number of things -- Hancock, poor play, the new direction of the franchise. Disagree w/ that conclusion, if you choose -- it's an opinion isn't immune from criticism. Disagree w/ the notion that Tony is frustrated or that the lashing out has been inconsistent (though that would be a tough sell) -- that's why it was the subject of today's thread.
I fail to grasp the idea that this is somehow unworthy of discussion as a daily thread and, I would also suggest going back and re-reading Bernie's column and LB's post as well.
lboros on society
very nice analysis and wordsmithing!
I'm not sure of lboros profession but that description beautifully captures a huge chunk of society and helps explain road rage, the crazy neighbor, the looney gunman and me kicking the dog on a bad day.
Sorry to drift from baseball.....delete if appropriate
Back to Baseball
But I wonder why Tony would stay. He doesn't seem particularly happy, he's not in a rebuilder phase of his life, he doesn't need the money, he's not from Stl, he's marketable, he's been here 10 years and he got his ring.
Take a break, Tony.......you've earned it.
lboros profession
by RosevilleRedbird on Jul 19, 2007 1:20 PM EDT reply actions
With regards to Bryan Anderson..
Not to be super scary paranoid but...
Or, more recently,
Just thought ...
His hitting might translate to 2nd base
Beating it to death?
I think it's ok to obsess for a few hours.
Anderson
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 19, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Im ok...
Me too
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 19, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree 100%
Yes, there is in fact a
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 19, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
by Hammondsbird on Jul 19, 2007 1:31 PM EDT reply actions
Lbros and Bernie
Bernie well I'm not a big Bernie guy think he is imature at times(last yr with the Pujols stuff)
However I do agree with todays piece a bit. A manager does need to hold guys accoutnable, but does that mean calling them out in the media? Not sure about that one.
I agree that your star player needs to be the example, but dont think you can compare AP and Juan in the same sentence. Ap has made mistakes at times he is human, but Juan makes alot of dumb moves(that transend the ocassion mistake thing). I'll have to give him this he seems a lot better at the plate this year, but stil makes boneheaded moves in the field, and basepaths. For instance a few weeks ago Juan gets a base hit...thats great only to get picked off first.
Oh and someone mentioned AP no sliding into home...if its not close i could care less Ive seen him do it before and it made me squeemish...the franchise big and bulky and awkward sliding into a catcher ...no way
There seems to be a general malaise to the
lboros...sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I didn't feel like starting a diary.
Picking up Jason Kendall struck me as crazy
Crazy, yes, illogical, yes
But perfectly Cub-like
My point was that they were
Yes, they are doing something and Hendry better
And this year we can only dream of being in a position - like the Cubs - where fine tune roster adjustments are a critical factor in a pennant race
Calling players out in public.
not calling them out is one thing
and no matter how he chooses to handle it, it's not right to make joel goldberg the villain. joel goldbeg hasn't made any plays, good or bad --- he's just doing his job, and asking questions that most fans would want him to ask. by holding the press in contempt, tony ultimately is disrespecting the fans.
No offense to you
Also you'll not find a manager that protects his players more than TLR. Sometimes, when they clearly don't deserve it.
I just don't think anyone else can put themselves in those spots until they've done it.
by paCardsFan on Jul 19, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Very true.
by paCardsFan on Jul 19, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The Cubs just traded Cesar Isturiz for a PTBNL
My first question is, why? Not for the Cubs, because I don't really care. But why for the Pirates? They have Bautista as their 3B, Freddy Sanchez as their 2B. Then they have a 3 man crew of MIF now with Jack Wilson, Jose Castillo and Cesar Isturiz. All are above average defenders.
Castillo is in the doghouse and Wilson can't hit. Wilson has a huge contract, so maybe they are planning on trading him to someone who needs a SS. Who that might be, I have no idea.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
Well...
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 19, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Izturis is no longer even an average defender
Why the hell would the Pirates
One guy with whom I work is a huge Pirates fan -- HUGE!!!! Defintion of a fan -- as in a fanatic. Every year -- this is the Pirates year, they made some good additions, gonna make a run at the Wild Card, etc. I just shake my head. He insists that Littlefield, the GM, is doing a great job and that all these players are future stars -- trading Oliver Perez AND Roberto Hernandez for Xavier Nady, for example was a great trade for the Pirates! Just WOW!
Covering for players
Rumors out of Milwaukee
Dunn for Matt Wise, Gwynn Jr and PTBNL.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
They needed a power bat?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
inter divison trade of big name
That's not nearly enough...
For what it's worth
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade status?
Wow!
The good news for the Brewers is that Dunn's team option at the end of the year disappears if he's traded (I believe). He'll help the Brewers win the division, leave as a FA and then the Brewers will get 2 compensatory draft picks. There aren't many better GM's than Doug Melvin.
Beries Boloney
The whipping boy this time, in addition to TLR, is Juan Encarnation. In fact, it's one play by Encarnation - his failure to "hustle," in Bernie's view, on a steal attempt. Now I saw that play, and I was disappointed with its outcome - major league players should never go in standing up at second base on a contested steal attempt. It was dumb. But to extrapolate from that the idea that TLR has lost control of his team, the season and God knows what else, as a result of his not hammering Juan about that play, is absurd on the face of it.
"Once again, La Russa found it more convenient to jump a media person rather than hold his players accountable. It continued a season-long pattern: La Russa initiating a conflict with the media while waving off his players' lapses in the commitment to fundamentally-sound baseball." was Bernie's idea. "Once again indeed; hell we've got a pattern here! In the same column Bernie also writes: "Albert Pujols fail (sic) to immediately leave the batter's box after scorching a ball to the shortstop." However, suffering from a well know inconsistency, he does not suggest TLR admonish Pujols. One gets the feeling that, had La Russa done so, that would have been another Bernie column - the one about his attacking his star player.
Later in the piece, playing up to the crowd, Bernie opines : "How about channeling some of this anger towards millionaire athletes who don't play hard or consistently up to their ability level?" And he calls this whole thing "the rot at the core of professional sports."
What garbage; Bernie, I got one thing to say - you a hack, jack.
RE: "...he does not suggest TLR admonish
Bernie didn't state it explicitly, but the clear implication of that paragraph was that TLR also shouldn't put up with that sort of thing from Pujols either. One could make a pretty strong case that Enc's sin was more serious (Pujols' running wouldn't have affected the outcome; lapses like that are a lot less common for him than for Enc, and he saves runs with his brains a lot more often than he gives them up; he's had some ongoing leg problems this year; etc...). But that wasn't Bernie's point. There was no inconsistency, I think just you misread what he wrote.
by BTown Birds fan on Jul 19, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernie is a columnist, not a reporter...
Yes. He is a columnist.
Sometimes Bernie's a sledgehammer, trying to obliterate an argument.
He's ok. He's not great.
Power
Hall is out for maybe awhile...
Plus they have about a 100 ops split against righties, Dunn will help with that.
Hart
Hardy
Braun
Fielder
Dunn
Jenkins/Mench
Estrada
Weeks
That's a pretty good lineup...
Remember how I suggested Matt Morris
Well, he is sucking hard at Wrigley today. Bengie Molina is apparently giving him signals he doesn't understand.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 2:38 PM EDT reply actions
Three errors in the inning by the Giants
by BTown Birds fan on Jul 19, 2007 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I just noticed one of those errors was by
by BTown Birds fan on Jul 19, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
matty mo
Jack Wilson to Cardinals?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2942263&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines
"Among the teams for whom Wilson might make sense: ...the Cardinals, who will lose David Eckstein to free agency after this season..."
Brendan Ryan
Wilson's contract
08:$6.5M
09:$7.25M
10:$8.4M club option ($0.6M buyout)
Eckstein would cost less than that if resigned.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly why
I don't have the info at my fingertips
No major league team..,
Because the Pirates are very down on him,
Yeah but why bother...
Wilson is getting any better.
So...
No--I said in an earlier post that I didn't think
And I forgot to add, why not just stick with
Brewers are going to win another close home
The DBacks have been 1 big hit away each of these 4 games from sweeping the Brewers. Instead, they only got 1 yesterday to spare themselves from being swept.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
Hudson's
No, he isn't......but he's
And Cheers to you lboros,
Bonds hit 752 and 753 at Wrigley today
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
9-8 I mean
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 19, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
hmm
the only thing funnier bonds gets traded to the marlins and then breaks the record against the cubies, when only seconds b4 a fan drops an a sure out..wait we did that before?
KIpper
It doesn't really matter...
2 questions about TLR/Bernie
- I imagine this has been asked before, but have the transcendent young players Larussa has managed before -- I think of Canseco, McGwire, and Pujols off the top of my head -- raised his expectations unduly of what a guy just starting out in MLB can do? Granted, Canseco was midway through his great first full season when Larussa arrived in Oakland; and granted, every manager, particularly those with TLR's staying power, has a handful of guys like this -- and some no doubt manage to also realistically cultivate rookie talent of lesser proportions. But is there any weight to thinking that Tony, having been blessed a few times, operates with some sort of McGwire-Standard in mind, even if subconsciously?
- How much of Bernie's antics (and I'm with those who disagree with his methods of calling out TLR here) are driven by something I'll call the traditional sports columnist's obsolescence? I mean really, in the culture of blogdom and the multiplying venues for sabr analysis, etc., doesn't the sports columnist (again, I'm suggesting subconsciously -- a big theme for me today, apparently) looks around and asks what his currency now, what he has that others don't... and, of course, it's access to the players and the manager in post-game press conferences, in the clubhouse, etc. TLR saying juicy stuff at the press conference after a game -- doing anything other than the 95% cliche-speak we all know from sports interviews -- gives Bernie a better column, something of a scoop. (Granted, a lot of these postgame press conferences are televised, right -- I'm not a cable guy, so I don't know.) So naturally Bernie, when he's frustrated with the material he's getting from TLR in those venues, he makes that the theme of his writing: regardless of what TLR might be saying to players in private (which we all know is a more effective management tool and more within TLR's total control, which we know he likes), Bernie wants his special arena -- where the manager faces down the tough ol sportswriters -- to be where he manages the team. Granted, Bernie acknowledges in the column under discussion that TLR may prefer to be doing his managing in more behind-the-scenes ways (and lboros points out that the real problem overall is TLR being too quick to use interviews to rag on players). But I read Bernie's writing and just see his ego at work: he wants a bit of a boxing match at press conferences because that flatters his own ego and, more importantly, flatters the currency of his trade, what bloggers don't have -- face-to-face contact with the stars and the brass.
re:
actually, if you're looking for a tlr-centric reason for the vet preference, it might be that tlr fancies himself a stat guy; always looking for the right matchups. and a vet is a much more proven commodity than a young player - for better or worse, you know what you have to work with. and that means tlr can better manage the way he wants to.
on 2., i think you're actually giving bernie - and, even more than bernie, his ilk - too much credit. i think most traditional sports journalists are a lot closer to the murray chass, bloggers-are-all-fat-and-unemployed-and-live-in-their-mom's-basement view than they are to considering bloggers a real threat to their power. i think they're way off base there, but yeah - i think they've got their heads too far in the sand to be subconsciously worked up about it enough to write a column attacking tlr for not acting in a way that's bad for the cardinals just to protect bernie's franchise.
Hey, I take offense
;-)
i've now read bernie's colum twice
personally after this season of discontentment, i'm done with Tony. i've gone on record before, even as recently as this season as saying Tony should not leave and if he did, the Cardinals would stop losing. i no longer feel that. thanks for the wins, the ring, and all the good memories Tony, but its time to go. his act has gotten tired. he looks tired, he acts tired, and he' all over the place picking fights with FSN guys, Bernie and any one who dares question him. he's making himself look bad, and the Cards look bad. and as a manager, when you start making your team look bad, it's time to take a step back and check yourself. i think Tony's finally burnt out. the DUI, Josh Hancocks death, the losing, all the injuries. it's all finally to much for Tony to handle. the defending World Champs are not suspossed to have this bad of a season right after winning it all. and i dont think Tony can handle it any more.
Tony's had a wonderful career, not just with the Cardinals. i'm so grateful for every thing he's given us fans. but the times they are a changin. Tony's as old school as they come, and he's not a fan of change. the writings on the wall. owners want younger&cheaper players, fans want younger&cheaper players. the only one who does not is Tony. somethings got to give.
goodbye, and good luck Tony. thank you for everything.
There seems to be a little skirmish at p-d today
Gordo: " On balance, the Cards have done surprisingly well with fill-in players.... This doesn't excuse the team's inconsistent hitting, sloppy defense or inattentive baserunning. But the cumulative effect of the injuries compromised the team's ability to compete -- and the surviving players know it. We all expect these guys to "play a hard nine." But when The Skipper struggles to find a healthy nine to put on his lineup card, reality eventually sets in."
Bernie in extra points: "I continue to hear that the poor Cardinals' plight is understandable, considering all of their injuries... Please. Throw away those crutches, and don't use them as an excuse to cover for a losing team that doesn't always give 100 percent or commit itself to smart, fundamentally clean baseball...."
by nycardfan on Jul 19, 2007 7:12 PM EDT reply actions
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