how to play for next year, part II
as promised, the companion piece to yesterday's post.
chris carpenter's uncertain health status is totally screwing up my attempt to compile a meaningful inventory of the cardinal organization's mound assets --- adds guesswork to an already guesswork-heavy exercise. but i'll bull forward anyway. the severity of carp's injury may not be known for weeks, months, or longer, so it's just another variable we fans (and the front-office guys who make the actual decisions) are gonna have to factor in.
let's start at the big-league level, where the cardinals already have more than a full starting rotation under club control heading into next season:
| carpenter | $10.5m |
| mulder | $6.5m |
| looper | $5.5m |
| maroth | ~$5m (arb elgble) |
| wainwright | $500K |
| thompson | $500K |
| reyes | $425K |
| TOTAL | $29m |
that's a pretty high investment in the rotation. for comparison's sake, the 2004 rotation of morris woody carp marquis and suppan earned a total of $22.3 million, according to the figures at the bottom of the team page at Baseball Reference. the 2005 rotation made $17.5 million; last year's made $23.9m or so (pro-rating the jeff weaver contract), and the 5 guys in the 2007 opening-day rotation made a collective $17.8m. so we're looking at a one-year increase of about $10m, and an increase of about $8m over the rotation's four-year average (2004-07) of $20.1m.
we know they'll be expensive, by this club's recent standards; will they be any good? so far in 2007 these guys have a collective 5.02 era, 1.489 whip (including only thompson's innings as a starter). we can probably expect some improvement from reyes (in the unlikely event that he stays) and wainwright; looper / thompson / maroth are what they are, and they're fairly interchangeable. if the rotation is gonna get significantly better, it's gonna have to happen one of two ways: either a) carp and / or mulder returns and pitches well, or b) the rotation adds a pitcher who is not on this list.
given that option (a) is far from a certainty, the latter seems the prudent way to go --- either promote a pitcher from within the organization or add one from outside it. the main candidates for promotion from within would include ryan franklin, blake hawksworth, mike parisi, jaime garcia, and mitch boggs. the cards seem committed to keeping franklin in the bullpen, so he's probably out. among the minor-leaguers, the two guys at double A (garcia and boggs) are having the best seasons, but neither will be ready by next season imho --- each has only thrown half a season above class A, and while both are doing well at double A they are not exactly dominating the league. compare their double A stats to the numbers posted at that level by other cardinal farmhands who made it into the big-league rotation:
| ERA | WHIP | K/9 | K/BB | HR/9 | |||
| garcia | 3.70 | 1.33 | 8.4 | 2.2 | 1.2 | ||
| boggs | 3.60 | 1.48 | 6.7 | 1.8 | 0.5 | ||
| morris | 3.88 | 1.35 | 6.5 | 2.5 | 0.8 | ||
| ankiel | 0.91 | 0.83 | 13.7 | 4.7 | 0.7 | ||
| a benes | 2.90 | 0.96 | 7.7 | 2.9 | 0.8 | ||
| wainwright | 3.37 | 1.14 | 7.7 | 3.5 | 0.5 | ||
| reyes | 2.91 | 1.01 | 12.3 | 7.8 | 0.4 | ||
| haren | 0.82 | 0.76 | 8.0 | 8.1 | 0.3 | ||
| bu smith | 2.32 | 1.10 | 8.5 | 3.8 | 0.4 |
garcia and boggs have higher era's than everybody on the list except morris, and they have the two worst whips and k/bb ratios. boggs also has the second-lowest k rate, and garcia has the worst hr rate. their overall profiles are worse than everybody on the list except for matt morris, who (it should be noted) has turned out to have the best career of the lot so far. (haren probably will end up have a better career, when it's all said and done.) that rather sizeable exception aside, these guys are not dominating double A the way future big-leaguers typically do; at least, not so far. there's still half a season to go; let's check out their lines at the end of the year.
the dissimilarity is even greater as regards the two top prospects at memphis, hawksworth and parisi; both have eras in the 5.00 range and strikeout rates below 6.0 k/9. neither has a stat line even remotely resembling the triple A lines of other guys the cardinals promoted to the bigs. again, each guy only has half a season under his belt; by this time next year, maybe one of them will have raised his game.
there are some dominant arms lower in the system --- tyler herron, pj walters, adam ottavino, eddie degerman --- and there's ample reason to hope that one or more of them will continue to overpower hitters as they rise up the chain. but that doesn't do us any good for 2008. the cardinals really can't count on much help for the rotation from within the farm system until 2009 or beyond.
that leaves us with the trade and free-agent markets. with $28.5 million already invested in the rotation, the only way the cards can spend heavily on a free-agent upgrade is by dumping both looper's and maroth's salaries. i wouldn't be opposed to that at all, but if they get rid of both those guys, they're not left with much insurance for the two post-surgical arms at the top of the rotation --- if one or both of them can't stay healthy, the rotation would be a thin stew comprising the new signee plus wainwright, reyes, thompson, and the minor leaguers. this is why the failure to let reyes develop rankles so much; the cardinals should have gotten an answer by now about whether he can or can't stick at this level. it shouldn't still be an unresolved issue. but in their wisdom, the cardinals have withheld opportunities from a significant prospect and given them instead to dead-ends like ponson and wellmeyer and wells.
they still have half a season to let reyes sort through his problems against big-league hitters; half a season to find out if he is or isn't a part of their future. if he shows sufficient improvement and earns some trust, then the cardinals might have the flexibility to cut bait this off-season on the pricey mid-rotation guys and apply the savings to a frontline pitcher. if reyes fails to improve, then the cardinals will know they have to find some other solution.
but the organization learns nothing by keeping him at triple A. if they accomplish nothing else this year, they have to find out if reyes figures into their plans for 2008.
see the first question / answer in yesterday's Postcards entry for more perspective on the pitching / payroll issue.
0 recs |
134 comments
Comments
Reyes
by Zubin on Jul 17, 2007 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fate Accompli
by Titus Pullo on Jul 17, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that's the case, they really should clear him
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing I hope doesn't happen is
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great observation
by lefty fan on Jul 17, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing that scares me about Mulder is
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Using Spezio is a pretty poor example...
by saladdays on Jul 17, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm referring to the fact that he has
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was in the hospital at one point wasn't he?
by saladdays on Jul 17, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by pitchout487 on Jul 17, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the Blues' players,
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder is simply relearning how to pitch
Mulder is taking longer because the Cardinals are 'doing it the right way' for once. They screwed up last summer with Mulder, they are taking their time and making sure he is the pitcher they traded for.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
by chuckb on Jul 17, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I guess that's an expensive rotation
I guess we need to make like Detroit and either be really brilliant or really lucky in the draft.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I enjoy Detroits continued
by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
by BigJawnMize on Jul 17, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The charge of collusion is
MLB doesn't get slapped with a lawsuit becuase there's no competition. They find collusion and there's some recompense but then you're blacklisted throughout the industry. No player agent would ever allow a client to get mixed up in that.
Detroit's giving Selig a big FU and picking up some great arms in the process (assuming they sign Porcello). They are exploiting a weakness in the market/system -- kudos to them.
by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your right....
by BigJawnMize on Jul 17, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could be.
Here's an article from the Biz of Baseball about possible collusion within the amateur draft. Personally, I have little doubt there is a tacit collusion going on between MLB and the owners re: the draft. If teams go over slot, there are plenty of ways for MLB to make the team "uncomfortable" in the future (trade approvals, filed greivances, anything that has to be approved by selig) without an actual mandate on draft bonuses.
The fact that SOOO few players sign for overslot bonuses seeems like too much of a coincidence for me. Watching Porcello fall all the way to the tigers shows that the draft isn't just about talent any more. BA's John Manuel had a write-up about it. Even if collusion is too strong of a word (and I don't think it is), Detroit has found a way to nab top-5 talent with late first round picks.
by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Post
But overall, my issue with the Cardinals pitching is Larussa and Duncan do not develop pitchers. They have developed almost no pitchers since they took over. When Haren was traded, my comment at Redbird Nation was "Well, the Cardinals can trade pitching prospects, because they never develop them." Since then, their handling of Reyes, Thompson, and Wainwright has not changed my opinion. While Duncan has a good track record with salvage jobs, in his time with the Cardinals their young pitchers have not developed. And everyone knows this. My father talked with a pitcher in the Cardinals' minor leagues last year, and the pitcher commented how discouraging it was being a minor league pitcher in their organizaiton, because being traded was your best chance for success in the majors.
by tarakas on Jul 17, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
where did i say i wasn't high on wainwright?
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think
Obviously that's not what you meant.
by silent_bob on Jul 17, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My mistake on Wainwright
by tarakas on Jul 17, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Wainwright too......
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers
Just as an idea, why dont more teams go the Johan Santana direction? Let more high level prospects pitch in relief for a year and then jump to the rotation after they learn to dominate a single inning. I think that is what Wainwright back on track, becasue he really was struggling even in the minors before that and now I think he will turn out to be a quality number 2 started (15-17 wins and 7-9 losses) year in and year out.
by t7rick on Jul 17, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andy Benes
Did we develop Andy Benes? I thought he was signed as a FA. We can get credit for not developing (bad luck?) his younger brother.
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morris and Benes and Haren Kind Prove my Point
Larussa and Duncan did develop Morris. They had him throw 217 innings as a 22-year old rookie, shortly after which he hurt his arm. He threw 113.2 IP the next year, and 53 after that. His rookie year remains his career single season high in IP, and his career best in HR/IP. And it is the second lowest ERA he has had in a full season as a starter. His K/9 did improve. In short, Morris under them started out strong, got hurt, and then hung around at a level a bit below his rookie year. He didn't really develop.
They "developed" Alan Benes, who didn't have much of a career. His best year was 1997, where as a 25-year old he averaged over 112 pitches per start, good for 7th overall in baseball for pitchers throwing 160 or more innings, and topped out at 128 pitches in a start. He ended up hurt and was never good again.
Then they moved on to develop Rick Ankiel.
Haren threw 118.7 innings during two years with Larussa and Duncan. He sported a 4.85 ERA. and a 5.7 K/9. Since leaving them, he has done much better,improving significantly in every category, and improving year after year. His career progression has been very different from that of Benes, Ankiel, Morris and Reyes.
Obviously, this is a small sample, as the Cardinals haven't given Larussa and Duncan many pitching prospects to work with. But they haven't had much success with what they have been given.
by tarakas on Jul 17, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
responding to your last sentence
matt morris
alan benes
rick ankiel
dan haren
anthony reyes
adam wainwright
benes and ankiel were both ranked in the top 5 in their respective years on Baseball America's list of the 100 best prospects in the minor leagues. they are the only st louis pitching prospects to earn that distinction since B.A. was established.
morris and wainwright were both #1 draft picks who ranked in the top 20 on B.A.'s 100 best prospects lists. reyes was ranked in the top 25.
tony / dave have been very lucky to have that much talent coming through the pipeline. their poor record at turning these young pitchers into long-term assets for the cardinals is a blemish on their otherwise sterling record of leadership in st louis.
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
2007 is over. The value in games from today forward is for talent evaluation, pure and simple. Reyes should be called up immediately.
But beyond Reyes, as your post yesterday outlined, the Cards have a number of AAA outfielders and the organization needs to know before 2008 which ones will be of value. Ankiel and Stanhovia in particular come to mind, but so to do Taguchi and Skip. Which 2 of those 4 should be on the ML roster to start next season. But, to do so, the Cards must find playing time for all 4 (+ Duncan). The solution is simple:
A. Shop Juan E.
B. Bench Edmonds for the rest of the season.
The upsides of such a plan are clear, clearing Juan's payroll and allowing Edmonds the rest of 2007 and part of 2008 to heal up all the nagging injuries that further reduce his declining production. This way to start 2008 the Cards can trot out a rested (and ideally healthy) Edmonds, Duncan and 2 of the 4 above if they prove to be decent outfielders.
by JMedwick on Jul 17, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Have we forgotten
by stltrav09 on Jul 17, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why bother...
How does playing Edmonds prepare the team for 2008?
Doesn't it make more sense to send Edmonds home, let him heal up, rest, and condition himself for 2008 rather than run around and possibly get more injured in 2007?
Besides, benching Edmonds means playing time to evaluate talent needed to play for 2008.
by JMedwick on Jul 17, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that's where we disagree.
I still see us winning the upcoming series' against Chicago and Milwaukee then going on a huge tear.
by stltrav09 on Jul 17, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even 8 back at the beginning of August
The Cubs can't possibly stay THIS hot the rest of the way out. August and September, we play more 'bad' teams than good.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely that this season isn't over
Also, even if in August, they don't think they can win the division, TLR keeps saying he wants to "make a point." It's hard for me to imagine TLR or the clubhouse just giving in and not continuing to fight to the very end, even if it is just for their final position. That's why they are a great team to support. They fight through adversity and through fans doubts and they fight for one another as a team.
by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think sitting Edmonds now
I don't.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
But I hope that with that much time off to heal, the Cards might get 120 or 130 games with 25 hr's and 80-90 rbi.
by JMedwick on Jul 17, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why couldn't Reyes succeed....
by TurdFerguson on Jul 17, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ding ding
That pretty much hits the nail on the head. Reyes may be frustrating, but at least he has a chance of going somewhere, anywhere. The same can't really be said about Kip and (although he was clearly trying) Wellemeyer.
As long as this season is over (and it basically is right now) they need to just bring him up and let him learn and develop, not let Wells continue to flounder (marlins pun). 2-20, 7.8 era at the end be damned.
by Alxfritz on Jul 17, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, now. Isn't that the question we would all
Groundballs=yipee, your a major league pitcher!
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OOP's grammar alert.....
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TLR said in an interview about Reyes
by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his 4-seamer was extremely well polished
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it's hard to say...
Happily, our competitors have their own issues.
For '08, the Cubs have $20.5 million spent for Wood, Prior, Lilly, Marquis, Hill, and Marshall. Talk about question marks. This assumes $6 million collectively to Wood and Prior. Zambrano now says he wants to stay a Cub.
The Brewers have about $31 million dedicated to Sheets, Soup, Capuano, Bush, Vargas, Gallardo and Villanueva. They could non-tender Bush and Vargas to save $6 million or so.
The Stros have about $22 million spent on Oswalt, Woody, Backe, Wandy, Albers, and Sampson.
The Brewer's situation looks the best to me, though Sheets is on the DL again, and Capuano and Soup seem to have gone south.
The Cubs are thin without Zambrano, and their management situation may preclude any big name signing.
The Astros are a mess.
We might just be able to compete in '08...
The thing to do is non-tender Maroth, and sign Jason Jennings.
by guayzimi on Jul 17, 2007 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Every team has pitching issues
by chuckb on Jul 17, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Brewers have a lot of good prospects,
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
context
garcia is 20 and pulling his weight in AA, boggs on the other hand i find as a 5th starter/middle relief type from the scouting reports i've heard.
by erik on Jul 17, 2007 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
points well taken re context
i agree with your general point, which is that league / ballpark factors can distort results. but those contextual factors shouldn't affect k / bb ratios, and boggs / garcia have notably weaker k/bb numbers than all the big-leaguers. this doesn't mean they can't pitch at the big-league level eventually; but i was talking about who can contribute in 2008, and those numbers are a giant read flag that says: "not ready yet."
i will also grant that the season is still in progress. either pitcher might make an adjustment and post a 5:1 k/bb for half a season, and by the end of the year their double A stats might look like reyes' or smith's or wainwright's.
also re league context: matt morris did pitch in the texas league (same as garcia / boggs), for the arkansas travelers; ditto bud smith and alan benes. haren and reyes pitched in the southern league, not the eastern. the only one of these prospects who pitched in the eastern league (which is very pitcher friendly) is wainwright.
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ankiel too
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
alas
by erik on Jul 17, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thnks az, lb
by erik on Jul 17, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
league rankings
I have no idea where those other guys ranked, but I always like to compare prospects to their league's averages.
by Speedy G on Jul 17, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
moreover, most of those pitchers didn't last a full year at double A --- they were so good they got promoted after 8 to 16 starts, so they wouldn't have qualified for league leadership anyway.
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin
by bobeans on Jul 17, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He makes more money
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As good as Franklin has been in the bullpen
by willievinceterry on Jul 17, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with this logic
You never see this logic applied to a hitter, as in: he's having a great season as a pinch-hitter, so let's not start him in left field.
If for some reason it turns out that Franklin can only be effective out of the bullpen, then let's leave him there. But I don't think we'll break him by giving him a few turns in the rotation. And if he can be as effective as a starter, he's much more valuable to us.
by bgodar on Jul 17, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
remember ankiel(the pitcher)?
by all in the cards on Jul 17, 2007 11:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Stop all ready.......
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
la la la la la la la
by jeff abs on Jul 17, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitch to contact
The Cardinals defense, especially the middle infield, has been horrific of late.
by jbacott on Jul 17, 2007 11:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Succession Planning
You'd have to do this on a team wide basis and develop timelines for each position. Some positions will be troublesome, such as short. Assuming they sign Kozma, his ETA isn't until 2011 at the earliest. (And Greene doesn't look to be the answer.) You have at least 3 years to bridge and I don't think you'd want Eckstein to be that bridge. And if Ryan is going to be your bridge, then you need to make up offense elsewhere.
You could incorporate probabilities into the model to reflect future productivity, injury potential or developmental busts. This would encourage longer-term planning and hopefully reduce situations where you have an overabundence of outfielders and no middle infielders. It would also help you in contingency planning. (At least for those injury risks and aging declines that are more apparent - such as Edmonds.)
by kjblair on Jul 17, 2007 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mulder's rehab plan?
Although LaRussa says he isn't going to be throwing in any games anytime soon, he has to be at the point now where he is throwing simulated games or early rehab starts.
How many more bullpen sessions can a guy throw?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I live in CHicagoland
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big picture?
by Timbo02 on Jul 17, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I have zero facts to back this up but my gut says they are gone. In the big picture, do they have more reason to stay in Stl....from their perspective? They certainly have enough money to take a year off and they certainly can take their pick among jobs either now or later. My guess is that their old friend Bob Castellini is making a hard pitch for both of them to move to Cincy. They are probably mulling their options, looking at the contract logjam and the help on the way still at AA and saying.........hmmm.....maybe an ESPN gig for awhile.........
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now replying to myself on this rather slow day
Another reason for them leaving - We've seen throughout sports the wisdom of leaving while things are good. Tubby Smith at UK, under a little heat from the fan base knew he was a year or two away from elite status again so he took a job he liked better rather than ride out the storm. Maybe a bad parallel but the situation maybe similar in the minds of WJ, TLR and Dunc.
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now officially talking to myself
Like Tubby, I'm sure WJ, TLR and Dunc do feel underappreciated when the howls get loud. That's only going to get worse for the next several months.......see lboros contract analysis. Why subject yourself to that when you are at the top of your profession and not from Stl?
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be surprised...
by Timbo02 on Jul 17, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, then TLR wouldn't have to
Can you imagine the NY media reaction when TLR pulls one of his bizarre moves?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WJ, TLR & Dunc in NY
They know they are marketable but probably too wise and too tired to put up with NY madness. I suspect Dunc would just refuse to go.
I think their best bet is to take a year off and wait for the right opportunity. MLB execs love to recycle, especially with Hall of Famers.
I'd love to see Tony and Dusty on ESPN together....the studio might overload with ego
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To add to that...
If so, now you need to find a GM, Manager, and a pitching coach.
You can argue Oquendo moving into the manager role, but who move's into the pitching coach role? Do we have someone from within the organization? Does anyone know what pitching coaches are available?
I'm not a huge Duncan supporter - Lord knows I have my gripes about how he's handled the Reyes situation. But... he's still a good pitching coach, and a highly respected one at that.
I guess I'm just saying that if all 3 leave, those are some pretty big shoes that need to be filled.
by SmashedAtoms on Jul 17, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rockin' Leo?
by ColinMacLeod on Jul 17, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If............
If WJ jumps on the exit train then it's a whole new day dawning. The new sheriff (Luhnow) would get heavy, if not total, say in the who the bosses in uniform would be.........and don't you know Luhnow would love to see that scenario unfold
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think a new manager
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the plus side, he's worked for other
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
by stlknows on Jul 17, 2007 12:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Perez is a more likely fit for that position
by OCCardsFan on Jul 17, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, now.......
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
la la la la la
by willievinceterry on Jul 17, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am the Princess of Darkness........
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've only read that Duncan doesn't like
Duncan wasn't high on Thompson and wasn't keen on even trying him as a starter. They went for Kiesler first and threatened to send Thompson down to AAA because he was too easily rattled. When Thompson stood up for himself and said that mechanical rather than "mental" factors had been interfering with his pitches, they gave him a chance to save one of Kiesler's game. When he succeeded, they said they'd give him a try as a starter, but it wasn't enthusiastic and he wasn't guaranteed any other games after that. Thompson had to fight for that job with little margin for error (and remember JH was one of his best friends and he had to fight for it not long after his death).
I thought Duncan didn't like Thompson for a long time because even with his great numbers in spring training, he really never had a chance in the "competition" for a starting position. But with Thompson's successful performances this year, I've been proven wrong.
Duncan's a tough guy. You have to perform and fight for your job, especially if you are young. Thompson simply won the fight against the odds.
by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen he's said things about that....but
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It comes from Reyes' own comments
He may be physically prepared. But his comments didn't make him seem very disciplined in terms of mental preparation.
by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
aren't most young pitchers clueless?
i've interviewed three of reyes' former / current teammates as well as his pitching coach, and every one of them has described him as a guy who works hard on his game. some people want to turn this into a "character" thing, and i don't think it's that at all. a guy of weak character couldn't have pitched the game he did in game 1 of the world series. for that matter, a guy of weak character couldn't stand up to tony and dave the way this kid has.
he's having problems adjusting; most of them do.
by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compare Reyes to Wainwright...
Reyes has clearly never spoken about anything like that. TLR compliments Wainwright as being "very smart" so maybe he's just a more analytical guy.
I don't like the general term "character" in this context because it sounds like I'm saying Reyes is a bum and is not physically disciplined. I was just relating what Reyes said he had to work on when he went to Memphis. It wasn't simply mechanics but game prep and mental discipline. And his own remarks did not help him look sufficiently prepared on that front.
by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know,
by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that is exactly what he said about himself
Ironically, it seems like many fans have become "enablers", encouraging him not to change, which I believe is harmful rather than helpful right now to getting him back to where they want him to be. He's got to see the reality of his situation and he's got to really fight to come back up (and not just pity himself for being treated "unjustly). I don't see us coddling anyone else who bounces back and forth between the majors and minors.
by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of fans - "enablers" -
What Reyes does with his future is up to him. Us arguing about -- while healthy and fun at times -- in the end is nothing but a futile waste of bandwidth and an inch ever closer to carpal-tunnel. Aside from the Hancock fatality, this on going, soul sucking soap opera w/ Reyes is easily the least enjoyable subplot of my '07 season. It doesn't matter what the freaking subject is about on a daily post and/or diary on VEB, eventually some micro-thread in the post gets turned into Tony and Dave don't trust young players; something which is proven time and time again to be maybe not false but at least a half truth -- You're young, you're good, you play. That's their policy.
The whole subject has just gotten old now. Old and lame.
Bring him up. Let him pitch. Everybody shut up about it.
(I'm a lot more jaded after listening to Sigur Ros for two hours straight, by the way.)
by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes the mentality to be a closer?
As bad as things have been this year, and as well as the Cubs are playing, the organization owes it to the team and to the fans to not just give up in the middle of July when there's a single digit lead. The Astros were down this much last year with less than two weeks and almost came back. I don't expect STL to win, but please, let's wait until the end of July to start the adding-by-subtracting process, or sending Reyes out there again. The idea that he is seemingly more important than the rest of the team, or that he deserves such a disproportionate chance to go out and fail and get beaten down is puzzling to me.
by willievinceterry on Jul 17, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
What I don't understand is what you feel would be a "proportionate chance to go out and fail". We have to understand what we have in Reyes before he is completely out of options and the club is forced to make a move, similar to what Detroit did with Mike Maroth. He would seem to be more worthwhile than a DFA-option like Wells or a castoff like Wellemeyer.
He repeatedly gets sent to AAA to get straightened out and, with a statistically acceptable bad start thrown in on occasion, pitches very effectively. He was a highly regarded prospect prior to joining the major league squad and displayed three quality pitches early in his career. But over his last 25 starts or so, he can barely hurl one decent offering up there.
There is a quote that I love that says, "The only common denominator in all of your bad relationships is you." From that it's easy to say, hah!, Reyes is responsible for all of his own failures, and you would be correct, as truly all of us are responsible for our own mistakes. But it is also true that the only time that Anthony has suffered significant failure is at the major league level, the only place where he appears to be a shell of his perceived ability. That means he isn't the only common factor in these failed endeavors.
We know that there is a thin line between genius and insanity. We also know that the definition of insanity is "to keep doing the same thing over & over, and expect a different result." It's pretty clear that Duncan, widely regarded as a genius, needs to change his approach and/or his plan to improve Reyes. A different pitch, a different way of teaching, a new set of mind games to get it through Anthony's (supposedly) thick head - whatever it takes to make this thing work. To do otherwise would just be plain crazy.
by Solanus on Jul 17, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes....and I think a good start could just be
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in complete agreement here ...
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes' horrible stats with runners on base
by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget that SMOKING
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Ankiel 'smelling it'?
In July,
12 Games
4 HR
2 2B
12 RBI
8 K
6 BB
.292 BA
.382 OBP
.583 SLG
He is having one of his better months as far as plate discipline. The most he has walked in ANY month is 6, and that was to go along with 27 strikeouts. He'd have to strikeout 19 straight times without taking a walk for that to happen again.
He has raised his season OBP from .307 to .322 since July 5 (or 8 games).
It's nice to check the Memphis boxscore everynight and see him being productive.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 1:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This tells me
He's already a capable major league OF, IMO, and he'll only get better as he matures as a hitter. I still think he belongs in AAA for another 3-4 weeks, playing every day, but to me it's conceivable that he could be a regular as a major league OF.
by chuckb on Jul 17, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rick ankiel AKA the next babe ruth
by all in the cards on Jul 17, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bugs
http://ussmariner.com/2006/03/12/bugs-bunny-greatest-banned-player-ever/
by punditmoi on Jul 17, 2007 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
uss mariner is hilarious
http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/22/offseason-adventure/
by nycbirdo on Jul 17, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade with Padres
That sounds like a perfect trade partner to me. We could get rid of one of our AAAA guys or possibly even Looper and get something in return. Obviously, for bench players we're typically not going to get much, but if a team is LOOKING for one, and we happen to have a fit, we might be able to draw out a better deal than usual. Plus, they have Khalil Greene at SS, so maybe they'd be willing to give up a SS prospect? I'm not sure about the state of their farm in terms of that position, but I know we could use a couple.
by aet15 on Jul 17, 2007 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
WJ and Towers are buddies
by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade with the Giants......
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool feature at Fish Stripes
http://www.fishstripes.com/story/2006/4/3/1281/58478
Any way anyone would be interested in doing anything like this over here? Or does that sound lame to everyone?
by Mr Redbird on Jul 17, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
YNOT
by Cardinal70 on Jul 17, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup
- Kennedy, 2B
- Schumaker, CF
- Pujols, 1B
- Duncan, LF
- Rolen, 3B
- Encarnacion, RF
- Molina, C
- Miles, SS
- Thompson, RHP
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like that lineup
I agree concerning Edmonds. Has it been determined if his back will hold out with him running all over the place?
by Mr Redbird on Jul 17, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He says he can hit
You never know, it could just be ego. However, the head trainer said he was physically fit to play. LaRussa said it would come down to a conditioning test. After watching Skip almost kill Chris Duncan last night, I'd think Edmonds would be fast tracked back into the lineup.
Apparently not.
I also love that Tony is still playing Aaron Miles out of position. I know that Ryan is your emergency 3rd basemen, but still. Start the kid in his position. He's the best defensive MIF we've got.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know I wondered about Duncan and
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles must have the goods on TLR...
by guayzimi on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, um he's got the good batting average
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and still manages to be
by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares...
by guayzimi on Jul 17, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is our 3rd best SS starting?
by lefty fan on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles has gotta be TLR's
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Borderline hilarious, but sadly predictable
by Mr Clean on Jul 17, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's the suglasses........
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goold says TLR filled the card out wrong
Seriously, what is going on with this guy? He's borderline OCD at times with stuff, yet twice in the last 3 weeks, he has filled out the scorecard wrong?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you watched the All Star Game...
by Mr Clean on Jul 17, 2007 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
for what it's worth, I'm thinking of boycotting tomorrow's game and not watching it. I was planning on never watching one of his starts again until they took him out of the rotation, but then they did... sort of. but I pay through the nose for Extra Innings, so I'm kinda conflicted.
by madding on Jul 17, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he probably won't be in the game long...
by SleepyCA on Jul 17, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't want to start a Rick Ankiel flame war
by Solanus on Jul 17, 2007 5:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
rolen
by erik on Jul 17, 2007 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
just got in to watch the game
by faninexile on Jul 17, 2007 8:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs



















