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Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

how to play for next year, part II

as promised, the companion piece to yesterday's post.

chris carpenter's uncertain health status is totally screwing up my attempt to compile a meaningful inventory of the cardinal organization's mound assets --- adds guesswork to an already guesswork-heavy exercise. but i'll bull forward anyway. the severity of carp's injury may not be known for weeks, months, or longer, so it's just another variable we fans (and the front-office guys who make the actual decisions) are gonna have to factor in.

let's start at the big-league level, where the cardinals already have more than a full starting rotation under club control heading into next season:

carpenter $10.5m
mulder $6.5m
looper $5.5m
maroth ~$5m
(arb elgble)
wainwright $500K
thompson $500K
reyes $425K
TOTAL $29m

that's a pretty high investment in the rotation. for comparison's sake, the 2004 rotation of morris woody carp marquis and suppan earned a total of $22.3 million, according to the figures at the bottom of the team page at Baseball Reference. the 2005 rotation made $17.5 million; last year's made $23.9m or so (pro-rating the jeff weaver contract), and the 5 guys in the 2007 opening-day rotation made a collective $17.8m. so we're looking at a one-year increase of about $10m, and an increase of about $8m over the rotation's four-year average (2004-07) of $20.1m.

we know they'll be expensive, by this club's recent standards; will they be any good? so far in 2007 these guys have a collective 5.02 era, 1.489 whip (including only thompson's innings as a starter). we can probably expect some improvement from reyes (in the unlikely event that he stays) and wainwright; looper / thompson / maroth are what they are, and they're fairly interchangeable. if the rotation is gonna get significantly better, it's gonna have to happen one of two ways: either a) carp and / or mulder returns and pitches well, or b) the rotation adds a pitcher who is not on this list.

given that option (a) is far from a certainty, the latter seems the prudent way to go --- either promote a pitcher from within the organization or add one from outside it. the main candidates for promotion from within would include ryan franklin, blake hawksworth, mike parisi, jaime garcia, and mitch boggs. the cards seem committed to keeping franklin in the bullpen, so he's probably out. among the minor-leaguers, the two guys at double A (garcia and boggs) are having the best seasons, but neither will be ready by next season imho --- each has only thrown half a season above class A, and while both are doing well at double A they are not exactly dominating the league. compare their double A stats to the numbers posted at that level by other cardinal farmhands who made it into the big-league rotation:

ERA WHIP K/9 K/BB HR/9
garcia 3.70 1.33 8.4 2.2 1.2
boggs 3.60 1.48 6.7 1.8 0.5
morris 3.88 1.35 6.5 2.5 0.8
ankiel 0.91 0.83 13.7 4.7 0.7
a benes 2.90 0.96 7.7 2.9 0.8
wainwright 3.37 1.14 7.7 3.5 0.5
reyes 2.91 1.01 12.3 7.8 0.4
haren 0.82 0.76 8.0 8.1 0.3
bu smith 2.32 1.10 8.5 3.8 0.4

garcia and boggs have higher era's than everybody on the list except morris, and they have the two worst whips and k/bb ratios. boggs also has the second-lowest k rate, and garcia has the worst hr rate. their overall profiles are worse than everybody on the list except for matt morris, who (it should be noted) has turned out to have the best career of the lot so far. (haren probably will end up have a better career, when it's all said and done.) that rather sizeable exception aside, these guys are not dominating double A the way future big-leaguers typically do; at least, not so far. there's still half a season to go; let's check out their lines at the end of the year.

the dissimilarity is even greater as regards the two top prospects at memphis, hawksworth and parisi; both have eras in the 5.00 range and strikeout rates below 6.0 k/9. neither has a stat line even remotely resembling the triple A lines of other guys the cardinals promoted to the bigs. again, each guy only has half a season under his belt; by this time next year, maybe one of them will have raised his game.

there are some dominant arms lower in the system --- tyler herron, pj walters, adam ottavino, eddie degerman --- and there's ample reason to hope that one or more of them will continue to overpower hitters as they rise up the chain. but that doesn't do us any good for 2008. the cardinals really can't count on much help for the rotation from within the farm system until 2009 or beyond.

that leaves us with the trade and free-agent markets. with $28.5 million already invested in the rotation, the only way the cards can spend heavily on a free-agent upgrade is by dumping both looper's and maroth's salaries. i wouldn't be opposed to that at all, but if they get rid of both those guys, they're not left with much insurance for the two post-surgical arms at the top of the rotation --- if one or both of them can't stay healthy, the rotation would be a thin stew comprising the new signee plus wainwright, reyes, thompson, and the minor leaguers. this is why the failure to let reyes develop rankles so much; the cardinals should have gotten an answer by now about whether he can or can't stick at this level. it shouldn't still be an unresolved issue. but in their wisdom, the cardinals have withheld opportunities from a significant prospect and given them instead to dead-ends like ponson and wellmeyer and wells.

they still have half a season to let reyes sort through his problems against big-league hitters; half a season to find out if he is or isn't a part of their future. if he shows sufficient improvement and earns some trust, then the cardinals might have the flexibility to cut bait this off-season on the pricey mid-rotation guys and apply the savings to a frontline pitcher. if reyes fails to improve, then the cardinals will know they have to find some other solution.

but the organization learns nothing by keeping him at triple A. if they accomplish nothing else this year, they have to find out if reyes figures into their plans for 2008.

see the first question / answer in yesterday's Postcards entry for more perspective on the pitching / payroll issue.

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Reyes
I am not as convinced as you that he can flourish in the big league, but I do agree the Cardinals should let him try on his own terms.  Its a low risk, high reward situation all around.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Jul 17, 2007 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Fate Accompli
I'm not sure that LaDunc haven't already made their determination on Reyes, and that his fate as a Cardinal isn't sealed.  It's possible that they sent him down to "improve," but my bet is that he's banished and won't ever be seriously considered as a starter on this team again.
So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jul 17, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that's the case, they really should clear him
out of the system.  They own the rights to him for a few more years, but morally they have no business denying him an opportunity elsewhere.  That's just wrong.

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing I hope doesn't happen is
that Carpenter/Mulder turn into our version of the Cubs Prior/Wood....Carpenter actually has some injuries in his background and Mulder's injury is about as serious as it gets for a ball slinger.  It's hard to know how effective they might be when they do come back.  So I hope they have a plan B of some sort.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great observation
I think we could expect Mulder to be able to pitch, but will he be any good? Even if we are lucky and both guys can contribute next season, I still think we need a proven innings-eater.

by lefty fan on Jul 17, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing that scares me about Mulder is
that Pedro Martinez had the same surgery AFTER Mulder's.  He's got one more throwing session the end of this week, and if all goes well he starts his re-hab assignment with the expectation of returning to the Mets in August.  Pedro supposedly had some kind of "revolutionary" procedure, and did not have problems with his mechanics, but still.  And I worry because I just don't have a lot of faith in the Cardinals medical staff--they can't even clear up an infection in Spezio's finger.  

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Using Spezio is a pretty poor example...
If you want to say that the organization holds back information on injuries to make them sound better, that's fine.  But Spezio's finger can potentially be very serious.  He was on the dugout show on the radio a week or so ago and said how, even though it sounds like a minor thing, it can be very serious.

by saladdays on Jul 17, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm referring to the fact that he has
already been hospitalized for the same condition a few weeks ago, and it still hasn't cleared up.  It does not give me great confidence in the medical staff, or the truthfulness of this organization regarding injuries.

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was in the hospital at one point wasn't he?
That says that his infection was serious.  When you have an infection like that, no telling what can happen.  I understand what you are saying, but I still think this is a poor example.

by saladdays on Jul 17, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
for your input, Dr. Paletta

by pitchout487 on Jul 17, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One of the Blues' players,
I think Kelly Chase, had a finger infection one year that kept him out of action for many weeks.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mulder is simply relearning how to pitch
he says he has only had minor soreness from the workouts and has regained velocity he hasn't had in years.

Mulder is taking longer because the Cardinals are 'doing it the right way' for once.  They screwed up last summer with Mulder, they are taking their time and making sure he is the pitcher they traded for.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW
Will Carroll, at Baseball Prospectus, has said that he expects Mulder to be at least as he was before he got hurt -- should be a solid, if unspectacular, starter once he returns.  He's doubted whether it would happen this year, but he believes it will happen, so while it's understandable to question how effective he'll be when he returns, it's not much more questionable than any other major league starter nearing 30.

by chuckb on Jul 17, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man, I guess that's an expensive rotation
but it's wacky to look at the rotation and only see 1 guy making "big" money, yet it's an expensive rotation.

I guess we need to make like Detroit and either be really brilliant or really lucky in the draft.

by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I enjoy Detroits continued
middle finger to the commissioner's office regarding bonus slotting in the draft.  Nabbing Miller last year and Porcello this year will probably have behind the scene's repercussions but it has on the field benefits.

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know
I think they need  Detroit to do crap like this to avoid collusion type charges.  Detroit might actually be helping MLB avoid a law suit...

by BigJawnMize on Jul 17, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The charge of collusion is
rendered against owners.  Notably when they were sued in the 1980s and lost to a charge of collusion.  MLB engages in these kind of collusion-esqe activities on a regular basis.  Allowing players to be placed on restricted lists with shaky reasoning, watching players go on the waiver wire and passing them (think the Nats had zero interest in Narveson this spring training, I don't), etc.  

MLB doesn't get slapped with a lawsuit becuase there's no competition.  They find collusion and there's some recompense but then you're blacklisted throughout the industry.  No player agent would ever allow a client to get mixed up in that.

Detroit's giving Selig a big FU and picking up some great arms in the process (assuming they sign Porcello).  They are exploiting a weakness in the market/system -- kudos to them.

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

your right....
..about the MLB vs owners split in the fact that MLB doesn't get sued, but didn't the owners get sued because they were following the guidance of peter ueberroth.  I think the way it was legally described was that MLB facilitated the collusion of the MLB owners.

by BigJawnMize on Jul 17, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That could be.
I'm not an expert on the 80's collusion by any means and it wouldn't surprise me if MLB facilitated it.  Collusion has to get pretty egregious for the MLBPA to really take a stand on it though.  

Here's an article from the Biz of Baseball about possible collusion within the amateur draft.  Personally, I have little doubt there is a tacit collusion going on between MLB and the owners re: the draft.  If teams go over slot, there are plenty of ways for MLB to make the team "uncomfortable" in the future (trade approvals, filed greivances, anything that has to be approved by selig) without an actual mandate on draft bonuses.

The fact that SOOO few players sign for overslot bonuses seeems like too much of a coincidence for me.  Watching Porcello fall all the way to the tigers shows that the draft isn't just about talent any more.  BA's John Manuel had a write-up about it.  Even if collusion is too strong of a word (and I don't think it is), Detroit has found a way to nab top-5 talent with late first round picks.

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice Post
I'm higher on Wainwright than you are. He has pitched better lately.

But overall, my issue with the Cardinals pitching is Larussa and Duncan do not develop pitchers. They have developed almost no pitchers since they took over. When Haren was traded, my comment at Redbird Nation was "Well, the Cardinals can trade pitching prospects, because they never develop them." Since then, their handling of Reyes, Thompson, and Wainwright has not changed my opinion. While Duncan has a good track record with salvage jobs, in his time with the Cardinals their young pitchers have not developed. And everyone knows this. My father talked with a pitcher in the Cardinals' minor leagues last year, and the pitcher commented how discouraging it was being a minor league pitcher in their organizaiton, because being traded was your best chance for success in the majors.

by tarakas on Jul 17, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I dont think
he understood your use of the semicolon, thus determining that you meant Wagonmaker, Thompson, and Looper are interchangeable.

Obviously that's not what you meant.

by silent_bob on Jul 17, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My mistake on Wainwright
Sorry, in the tiny Verdana text, I missed a semi colon that impacted meaning.

by tarakas on Jul 17, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Wainwright too......
they have managed to handle him okay, but he didn't become a Cardinal until AAA.....so they really didn't develop him, but they have handled him well since he got here.  But that comment about how discouraged young pitchers  are is disturbing.....I guess it goes back to a comment Dyar Miller made on the radio that "We are a two seam sinkerball organization" leaves out the guys who can't throw it.  There are plenty of good pitchers that just can't get the ball to sink...

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitchers
  I would like to see the article where the pitcher said that if it is possible.  You say that the cardinals have no track record developing pitchers but Matt Morris, Andy Benes, and Dan Haren have all been excellent to above average at least at one point in their careers.  Each of them was developed by the Cardinals.  Unfortunately, I think the problem lies more in the draft ineptitude as well as trading.  We dont draft well and the pitching prospects (Dan Haren) that we do have we trade.  (remember he did come all the way to the majors through our system)  However, all that to say that I think if we have talent (which we do have now that we have started drafting better and refraining from trading the prospect the day after they sign) in the system now and as time goes by people like walters, ottavino, boggs, garcia, and herron will do well.  The reason we don't have a young loaded pitching staff is because in order to make pushes for pennant races we have aquired "now" guys for the "later" guys like Haren and Barton.  That is why we have been in the playoff picture the last five years and the Tigers havent been.  The price of the is an overpriced overaged team that needs to be addressed.  But, I wouldnt trade the playoffs and the WS title for a younger team that has promise but falls short year after year.  Sorry to expand but all in all, if we have the talent, I dont think we would have a problem developing despite the Reyes situation.  

Just as an idea, why dont more teams go the Johan Santana direction?  Let more high level prospects pitch in relief for a year and then jump to the rotation after they learn to dominate a single inning.  I think that is what Wainwright back on track, becasue he really was struggling even in the minors before that and now I think he will turn out to be a quality number 2 started (15-17 wins and 7-9 losses) year in and year out.

Cards fan banished to NH

by t7rick on Jul 17, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Andy Benes

Did we develop Andy Benes?  I thought he was signed as a FA.  We can get credit for not developing (bad luck?) his younger brother.

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FA
Came up with the Padres.

by Cardinal70 on Jul 17, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My Bad..
I just interchanged them but the problem with that is that the one I was thinking of (Alan) didn't do much.
Cards fan banished to NH

by t7rick on Jul 17, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Morris and Benes and Haren Kind Prove my Point
I'm looking at development at the Major League level. After all, Larussa and Duncan aren't doing much with players in AA. Let's give them credit for what happens at the Major LEague level.

Larussa and Duncan did develop Morris. They had him throw 217 innings as a 22-year old rookie, shortly after which he hurt his arm. He threw 113.2 IP the next year, and 53 after that. His rookie year remains his career single season high in IP, and his career best in HR/IP. And it is the second lowest ERA he has had in a full season as a starter. His K/9 did improve. In short, Morris under them started out strong, got hurt, and then hung around at a level a bit below his rookie year. He didn't really develop.

They "developed" Alan Benes, who didn't have much of a career. His best year was 1997, where as a 25-year old he averaged over 112 pitches per start, good for 7th overall in baseball for pitchers throwing 160 or more innings, and topped out at 128 pitches in a start. He ended up hurt and was never good again.

Then they moved on to develop Rick Ankiel.

Haren threw 118.7 innings during two years with Larussa and Duncan. He sported a 4.85 ERA. and a 5.7 K/9. Since leaving them, he has done much better,improving significantly in every category, and improving year after year. His career progression has been very different from that of Benes, Ankiel, Morris and Reyes.

Obviously, this is a small sample, as the Cardinals haven't given Larussa and Duncan many pitching prospects to work with. But they haven't had much success with what they have been given.

by tarakas on Jul 17, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

responding to your last sentence
in fact, duncan and la russa have had a run of outstanding pitching prospects ---- far better prospects than their predecessors torre and herzog. in 11 years, they have been given

matt morris
alan benes
rick ankiel
dan haren
anthony reyes
adam wainwright

benes and ankiel were both ranked in the top 5 in their respective years on Baseball America's list of the 100 best prospects in the minor leagues. they are the only st louis pitching prospects to earn that distinction since B.A. was established.

morris and wainwright were both #1 draft picks who ranked in the top 20 on B.A.'s 100 best prospects lists. reyes was ranked in the top 25.

tony / dave have been very lucky to have that much talent coming through the pipeline. their poor record at turning these young pitchers into long-term assets for the cardinals is a blemish on their otherwise sterling record of leadership in st louis.

by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
Larry, I think your post hits on the most important theme for the remainder of 2007: understanding what we have.

2007 is over. The value in games from today forward is for talent evaluation, pure and simple. Reyes should be called up immediately.

But beyond Reyes, as your post yesterday outlined, the Cards have a number of AAA outfielders and the organization needs to know before 2008 which ones will be of value. Ankiel and Stanhovia in particular come to mind, but so to do Taguchi and Skip. Which 2 of those 4 should be on the ML roster to start next season. But, to do so, the Cards must find playing time for all 4 (+ Duncan). The solution is simple:

A. Shop Juan E.
B. Bench Edmonds for the rest of the season.

The upsides of such a plan are clear, clearing Juan's payroll and allowing Edmonds the rest of 2007 and part of 2008 to heal up all the nagging injuries that further reduce his declining production. This way to start 2008 the Cards can trot out a rested (and ideally healthy) Edmonds, Duncan and 2 of the 4 above if they prove to be decent outfielders.

by JMedwick on Jul 17, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Have we forgotten
that Edmonds actually started to hit the ball a little bit before his injury?  Having him back is a boost to the team.. at least give him a chance before you say "bench him for the rest of the season."  Hell isn't he 3rd on the team in homers?

by stltrav09 on Jul 17, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why bother...
Tell me, if the season really is over, then what is the value of running Edmonds out there every day?

How does playing Edmonds prepare the team for 2008?

Doesn't it make more sense to send Edmonds home, let him heal up, rest, and condition himself for 2008 rather than run around and possibly get more injured in 2007?

Besides, benching Edmonds means playing time to evaluate talent needed to play for 2008.

by JMedwick on Jul 17, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess that's where we disagree.
Personally, I don't see this season as being over.  Bottom line is this is the St. Louis Cardinals... a successful franchise that finds ways to win.  If we're still 8 back at the end of the month with no Carp and Mulder then yes by all means rest Edmonds for the remainder of the season.  

I still see us winning the upcoming series' against Chicago and Milwaukee then going on a huge tear.  

by stltrav09 on Jul 17, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even 8 back at the beginning of August
isn't unthinkable.

The Cubs can't possibly stay THIS hot the rest of the way out.  August and September, we play more 'bad' teams than good.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree completely that this season isn't over
Perhaps even more important than what any of us thinks, TLR and the team doesn't seem to think the season is over.  We'll all know more at the end of July (so the final gloom and doom talk seems a bit premature).  We have 21 games with Chicago and Milwaukie so we can obviously change the direction of the race.  

Also, even if in August, they don't think they can win the division, TLR keeps saying he wants to "make a point."  It's hard for me to imagine TLR or the clubhouse just giving in and not continuing to fight to the very end, even if it is just for their final position.  That's why they are a great team to support.  They fight through adversity and through fans doubts and they fight for one another as a team.  

by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you think sitting Edmonds now
gets us 150 games next year?  

I don't.

by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
anything short of the fountain of youth will get the Cards 150 games a year out of Edmonds.

But I hope that with that much time off to heal, the Cards might get 120 or 130 games with 25 hr's and 80-90 rbi.

by JMedwick on Jul 17, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why couldn't Reyes succeed....
as a "change of pace" pitcher compared to the sinkerballers? Seems to me that starting a guy who throws high heat & changeups would be a good complement to guys like Carpenter (assuming a return to health) and Wagonmaker.  I'd rather watch him try and develop instead of enduring Kip Freakin' Wells.
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by TurdFerguson on Jul 17, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ding ding
"I'd rather watch him try and develop instead of enduring Kip Freakin' Wells."

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. Reyes may be frustrating, but at least he has a chance of going somewhere, anywhere. The same can't really be said about Kip and (although he was clearly trying) Wellemeyer.

As long as this season is over (and it basically is right now) they need to just bring him up and let him learn and develop, not let Wells continue to flounder (marlins pun). 2-20, 7.8 era at the end be damned.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 17, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, now. Isn't that the question we would all
like answered.  LaDunc seems to think the only acceptable way to make an out is a ground ball.  Period.  Stikeouts=bad   Flyball=bad  
Groundballs=yipee, your a major league pitcher!

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OOP's grammar alert.....
I meant groundball=yipee, YOU'RE a major league pitcher!

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

TLR said in an interview about Reyes
that you can get outs with four seamers, but that you can't get them consistently enough with how Reyes throws them right now.  He needs more speed and better control (location).  Lost in all the hostility towards ground ball pitches is that Reyes still doesn't have his best pitch polished sufficiently for the majors, acccording to TLR.  Forget about ground balls.  They don't want him up in the majors because he's not dominant with his best pitch and he hasn't developed enough other pitches to keep hitters off balance over time--if he doesn't have sufficient heat, command, and he doesn't have a good sense of how to change his pitching patterns, hitters in the majors will figure him out.  Why get beat up in the majors when he can work on his pitches in an confidence-building environment?      

by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his 4-seamer was extremely well polished
before tony and dave made him stop throwing it. in his first go-round at triple A, he had 2 bb / 9 strikeouts per game. it's impossible to compile numbers like that against triple A hitters unless you have outstanding stuff and outstanding command of it.

by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it's hard to say...
given the unknowns surrounding Mulder/Carp. Could be a decent rotation, could be bottom of the barrel.

Happily, our competitors have their own issues.

For '08, the Cubs have $20.5 million spent for Wood, Prior, Lilly, Marquis, Hill, and Marshall. Talk about question marks. This assumes $6 million collectively to Wood and Prior. Zambrano now says he wants to stay a Cub.

The Brewers have about $31 million dedicated to Sheets, Soup, Capuano, Bush, Vargas, Gallardo and Villanueva. They could non-tender Bush and Vargas to save $6 million or so.

The Stros have about $22 million spent on Oswalt, Woody, Backe, Wandy, Albers, and Sampson.

The Brewer's situation looks the best to me, though Sheets is on the DL again, and Capuano and Soup seem to have gone south.

The Cubs are thin without Zambrano, and their management situation may preclude any big name signing.

The Astros are a mess.

We might just be able to compete in '08...

The thing to do is non-tender Maroth, and sign Jason Jennings.

Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 17, 2007 11:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Every team has pitching issues
and the Cards, at least, should have numbers next year.  I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that one of the group of minor leaguers can come in and contribute at some point next year either.  If Mulder has to go on the DL for 6 weeks next June, for example, who's to say that Hawksworth, Boggs, Parisi, Garcia, or someone else won't be able to step in and give us productive innings?

by chuckb on Jul 17, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Brewers have a lot of good prospects,
including pitching prospects, to use as trading chips.....it has been a long, hard road for that team, but they just might end up being the model for how to find, draft, sign and develop your own talent.  Every one of their farm teams lead their respective leagues....they have a steady flow set up now....it will be interesting to see how they handle it, and how many of the premium players they will be able to hang on to......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

context
boggs and garcia didn't have the pleasure for pitching in the Eastern League. Hammons Field and the Texas League for that matter are severe hitters league and parks.

garcia is 20 and pulling his weight in AA, boggs on the other hand i find as a 5th starter/middle relief type from the scouting reports i've heard.

by erik on Jul 17, 2007 11:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

points well taken re context
but i will quibble with them a bit.

i agree with your general point, which is that league / ballpark factors can distort results. but those contextual factors shouldn't affect k / bb ratios, and boggs / garcia have notably weaker k/bb numbers than all the big-leaguers. this doesn't mean they can't pitch at the big-league level eventually; but i was talking about who can contribute in 2008, and those numbers are a giant read flag that says: "not ready yet."

i will also grant that the season is still in progress. either pitcher might make an adjustment and post a 5:1 k/bb for half a season, and by the end of the year their double A stats might look like reyes' or smith's or wainwright's.

also re league context: matt morris did pitch in the texas league (same as garcia / boggs), for the arkansas travelers; ditto bud smith and alan benes. haren and reyes pitched in the southern league, not the eastern. the only one of these prospects who pitched in the eastern league (which is very pitcher friendly) is wainwright.

by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ankiel too
he also pitched in the texas league for arkansas

by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

alas
i'm at work so i was going off the cuff, should've looked the stuff up before i went blabbing. what was ank's, reyes, waino and benes's ages at AA?

by erik on Jul 17, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

AA ages
Ankiel - 20
Reyes - 22
Wainwright - 22
Alan Benes - 22

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thnks az, lb
and i agree, garcia's ETA is probably 09

by erik on Jul 17, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

league rankings
It might be helpful to note that Boggs and Garcia rank 8th and 9th in the league in ERA, and Garcia is 10th in WHIP.

I have no idea where those other guys ranked, but I always like to compare prospects to their league's averages.

by Speedy G on Jul 17, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree
looking at league rankings is a good way to fill in the "context" piece. i don't know where you can look up the historical league-leaders for the minors, though.

moreover, most of those pitchers didn't last a full year at double A --- they were so good they got promoted after 8 to 16 starts, so they wouldn't have qualified for league leadership anyway.

by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Franklin
Any chance the Cards will change their tune on Franklin, now that he's signed for reliever money over the next couple of years?  

by bobeans on Jul 17, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He makes more money
if he becomes a starter.  It's in his contract.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As good as Franklin has been in the bullpen
I don't see how he would be a major upgrade over Thompson or Looper in the rotation. He's having great success (for the time being), so why not keep it that way?

by willievinceterry on Jul 17, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with this logic
Franklin looks to be one of our best five pitchers, and one who COULD be a starter, so why not get more innings out of him?

You never see this logic applied to a hitter, as in: he's having a great season as a pinch-hitter, so let's not start him in left field.

If for some reason it turns out that Franklin can only be effective out of the bullpen, then let's leave him there.  But I don't think we'll break him by giving him a few turns in the rotation.  And if he can be as effective as a starter, he's much more valuable to us.

by bgodar on Jul 17, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

remember ankiel(the pitcher)?
those ankiel minor league stats almost make me cry... i say we bring him up, wait till some extra inning game when LaDuncs used all of our bullpen playing the matchup game then ask ankiel to throw a few innings instead of spezio and who knows, maybe the young ace returns... i'd say that would solve our pitching problem
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 17, 2007 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stop all ready.......
Ankiel's another one that happened on their watch.........

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

la la la la la la la
I'm not listening

by jeff abs on Jul 17, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Laugh
This made me laugh out loud....

by gonzostl on Jul 17, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mental
I don't think we can blame that one on LaDunc.  The same thing happened to Wohlers under Cox and Mazzone.  Its a freak thing, it just happens sometimes. (Chuck Knoblauch non-pitcher)
Cards fan banished to NH

by t7rick on Jul 17, 2007 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pitch to contact
Sad thing about the whole "sinkerball, pitch to contact" philosophy is that it's reliant on a solid defense, which the team has had in past years.  

The Cardinals defense, especially the middle infield, has been horrific of late.  

http://www.joesportsfan.com

by jbacott on Jul 17, 2007 11:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Succession Planning
Although lboros touched on this in his two posts, we really shouldn't be looking at 2008 in isolation when thinking about what changes should be made. To use center field as an example, Edmonds is signed through the end of 2008 and Rasmus' projected ETA is 2009. Once Rasmus gets here, you'd project him to stay in center through his arb years. As a result, it makes little sense to go out and sign a free agent center fielder as he would effectively block your best prospect. If you don't think Edmonds will be productive next year, then you need to find a solution for one year, not four or five.

You'd have to do this on a team wide basis and develop timelines for each position. Some positions will be troublesome, such as short. Assuming they sign Kozma, his ETA isn't until 2011 at the earliest. (And Greene doesn't look to be the answer.) You have at least 3 years to bridge and I don't think you'd want Eckstein to be that bridge. And if Ryan is going to be your bridge, then you need to make up offense elsewhere.

You could incorporate probabilities into the model to reflect future productivity, injury potential or developmental busts. This would encourage longer-term planning and hopefully reduce situations where you have an overabundence of outfielders and no middle infielders. It would also help you in contingency planning. (At least for those injury risks and aging declines that are more apparent - such as Edmonds.)

by kjblair on Jul 17, 2007 11:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mulder's rehab plan?
Has anyone seen any kind of announcement on this?  He is with the team in Miami right now and was supposed to get his 'calendar' on the next stage of his rehab.

Although LaRussa says he isn't going to be throwing in any games anytime soon, he has to be at the point now where he is throwing simulated games or early rehab starts.  

How many more bullpen sessions can a guy throw?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I live in CHicagoland
Would you like me to give you stats on bullpen sessions, simulated games, or towels?

by sdrone on Jul 17, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Big picture?
I think the real change in the Cardinals for next year is the exit of LaRussa and Jocketty. Talking to a good friend who is buddies with a Cards scout and he says it's pretty well accepted in the organization that they will exit after this year. Now take that for what it's worth, but I think everything will start and end with that becoming a reality. Direction and movement will all come down to who is making the calls in the dugout and in the front office.  That is why I think you will see the Cards be sellers if anything before the trade deadline.

by Timbo02 on Jul 17, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I have zero facts to back this up but my gut says they are gone.  In the big picture, do they have more reason to stay in Stl....from their perspective?  They certainly have enough money to take a year off and they certainly can take their pick among jobs either now or later.  My guess is that their old friend Bob Castellini is making a hard pitch for both of them to move to Cincy.  They are probably mulling their options, looking at the contract logjam and the help on the way still at AA and saying.........hmmm.....maybe an ESPN gig for awhile.........

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now replying to myself on this rather slow day

Another reason for them leaving - We've seen throughout sports the wisdom of leaving while things are good.  Tubby Smith at UK, under a little heat from the fan base knew he was a year or two away from elite status again so he took a job he liked better rather than ride out the storm.  Maybe a bad parallel but the situation maybe similar in the minds of WJ, TLR and Dunc.

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now officially talking to myself

Like Tubby, I'm sure WJ, TLR and Dunc do feel underappreciated when the howls get loud.  That's only going to get worse for the next several months.......see lboros contract analysis.  Why subject yourself to that when you are at the top of your profession and not from Stl?

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank You
for entering the discussion.......it was getting lonely and I was running out of ice breakers

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be surprised...
To see the YANKEES make a strong move for Tony and perhaps Walt too, if they became available..

by Timbo02 on Jul 17, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, then TLR wouldn't have to
worry much about player development any more!

Can you imagine the NY media reaction when TLR pulls one of his bizarre moves?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

WJ, TLR & Dunc in NY

They know they are marketable but probably too wise and too tired to put up with NY madness.  I suspect Dunc would just refuse to go.

I think their best bet is to take a year off and wait for the right opportunity.  MLB execs love to recycle, especially with Hall of Famers.

I'd love to see Tony and Dusty on ESPN together....the studio might overload with ego

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To add to that...
If TLR and Jocketty do leave after this year, does Duncan go with them?

If so, now you need to find a GM, Manager, and a pitching coach.  

You can argue Oquendo moving into the manager role, but who move's into the pitching coach role?  Do we have someone from within the organization?  Does anyone know what pitching coaches are available?  

I'm not a huge Duncan supporter - Lord knows I have my gripes about how he's handled the Reyes situation.  But... he's still a good pitching coach, and a highly respected one at that.  

I guess I'm just saying that if all 3 leave, those are some pretty big shoes that need to be filled.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jul 17, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rockin' Leo?
Anyone know if Leo Mazzone is tired of coaching for the woeful O's?
Join me in Tacoma in early August to cheer on our Memphis Redbirds

by ColinMacLeod on Jul 17, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If............

If WJ jumps on the exit train then it's a whole new day dawning.  The new sheriff (Luhnow) would get heavy, if not total, say in the who the bosses in uniform would be.........and don't you know Luhnow would love to see that scenario unfold

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would think a new manager
would want his own pitching coach, have his own attitudes and ideas about what a well pitched game looks like.  So, no, I don't think Duncan should stay if LaRussa doesn't.

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the plus side, he's worked for other
organizations besides the Cardinals, so he's exposed to different ideas of what constitutes good pitching, and he's a long time minor league guy that's been well thought of.  I don't know if the Cards would want him, but I bet if he put himself out there someone would.  His young charges love him.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes
anyone interested in dealing Izzy for prospects and trying to move Reyes to closer. He's got the mentality and in my opinion we got nothing to lose. I would like to see some moves made by walt at the deadline, and not to make a push this fall. even if we make it to october, we ain't doin sh*t
trade for youth!

by stlknows on Jul 17, 2007 12:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Perez is a more likely fit for that position
It's been said time and again that Reyes is not well suited to the bullpen.  Can't warmup properly.

by OCCardsFan on Jul 17, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, now.......
there's some dispute about that.  LaRussa has said he takes too long to warm up; Miller says he takes as long as every other pitcher he's worked with.  LaDunc doesn't like him---isn't it obvious?  Every excuse to make sure he's not here, everything they've asked him to do, makes him a worse pitcher instead of a better pitcher, and they can't see what he CAN do, only what he CAN'T.  He can't throw a damn sinker, he is never going to be able to throw a sinker and they are even too afraid to set him loose. There just might be a hint of doubt, and the ghosts of Jose Rios and Dan Haren in their head....and maybe Dyar Miller is pushing for Reyes, because that would be quite an achievement for him, if he actually turned out okay. There is some kind of argument behind the scene, because he would be gone by now.  I still suspect he's gone by the trading deadline, the biggest reason I really don't want to give up on him is the character he's shown through this ordeal--he's one tough dude--he was wracked his first game back at AAA, and came right back with a gem.  Wouldn't you know it was a no decision.  He's young, he's cheap, he's not injured, and he's just not ever going to be good enough for LaDunc because he can't throw a sinker......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

la la la la la
i think the 0-10 record, the big innings, then 6+ era, and some other stuff might have something to do with it. this is verging on paranoia. other pictures like wellemeyer and thomspon have shown character too, and have kept the team in games a little more often. let him work on his pitches and develop a breaking ball in triple a. high fastballs at 90 mph with no breaking ball to speak of and a changeup that is unreliable at best is not going to get it done. sigh.

by willievinceterry on Jul 17, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am the Princess of Darkness........
just joking.  I really do believe LaDunc doesn't like Reyes and even Bernie says so.......whether that has anything to do with anything, I guess I don't really know.  But neither do you......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've only read that Duncan doesn't like
what he sees as Reyes' lack of game prep, lack of discipline, and his not being open to developing new pitches--those are important personal traits for a pitcher, but that doesn't mean he dislikes him as a person.

Duncan wasn't high on Thompson and wasn't keen on even trying him as a starter.  They went for Kiesler first and threatened to send Thompson down to AAA because he was too easily rattled.  When Thompson stood up for himself and said that mechanical rather than "mental" factors had been interfering with his pitches, they gave him a chance to save one of Kiesler's game.  When he succeeded, they said they'd give him a try as a starter, but it wasn't enthusiastic and he wasn't guaranteed any other games after that.  Thompson had to fight for that job with little margin for error (and remember JH was one of his best friends and he had to fight for it not long after his death).

I thought Duncan didn't like Thompson for a long time because even with his great numbers in spring training, he really never had a chance in the "competition" for a starting position.  But with Thompson's successful performances this year, I've been proven wrong.

Duncan's a tough guy.  You have to perform and fight for your job, especially if you are young.  Thompson simply won the fight against the odds.

by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen he's said things about that....but
the lack of discipline thing--in what sense- his other coach at AAA has always complimented him on his work ethic and his professionalism, his seriousness during drills, etc.  I'm also puzzled by the statement about preparation--I just find it hard to believe that he wouldn't do the same thing every other pitcher on the staff does.  I know he's had the reluctance to add the other pitches--and it was obvious he COULDN'T throw them-not in a way he felt comfortable with them.  The last game he pitched against the Mets was pitched the way they said they wanted from him...5 innings,71 pitches, 2 hits, but that David Wright home run was low and inside-the kind of pitch that most right handers would have topped down the third base line...and he powered it out of the park....lots of ground balls, and he didn't fold when he hit a batter, walked a batter....he got out of that...to me it seemed like the perfect time for them to say okay, we can work with this kid.   No, they said they'd rather have Wellemeyer and Wells.  The sinker is a BIG issue....and he CAN'T throw it...

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It comes from Reyes' own comments
He gave interviews to MLB and P-D before he went to memphis last time.  He admitted that he did not do video preparations or game planning and that he was told he had to work on that in the minors.  He also said something to the affect, "I guess I have to start paying attention to what I'm doing right and wrong in my games."  One would think that would be a natural part of trying to better yourself as a pitcher, but he spoke of it as a new demand.   Perhaps his oddest statement was that he said he was surprised that the majors were different from the minors and that you had to be careful with location "up here".  Really???

He may be physically prepared.  But his comments didn't make him seem very disciplined in terms of mental preparation.  

by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

aren't most young pitchers clueless?
they all get to the big leagues with a lot to learn ---- hitters, pitchers, all of them.

i've interviewed three of reyes' former / current teammates as well as his pitching coach, and every one of them has described him as a guy who works hard on his game. some people want to turn this into a "character" thing, and i don't think it's that at all. a guy of weak character couldn't have pitched the game he did in game 1 of the world series. for that matter, a guy of weak character couldn't stand up to tony and dave the way this kid has.

he's having problems adjusting; most of them do.

by lboros on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Compare Reyes to Wainwright...
Wainwright has talked about analyzing video of past games (both for his performance and for how hitter's adjusted to him during the game); comparing videos for future games to analyze the hitter's he will be facing and to see if they've changed their hitting patterns since he last pitched against them (he said he did this with the Phillies since he had already pitched to them earlier this year).  In his second game against Kansas City, he also spoke of having to figure out in the first couple of innings how the hitters had adjusted to him and how to change the gameplan to shut them down, which he did thereafter.  And when Verlander pitched his no-hitter, Wainwright went home after the Card's game and analyzed how Verlander had done that.  

Reyes has clearly never spoken about anything like that.  TLR compliments Wainwright as being "very smart" so maybe he's just a more analytical guy.  

I don't like the general term "character" in this context because it sounds like I'm saying Reyes is a bum and is not physically disciplined.   I was just relating what Reyes said he had to work on when he went to Memphis.  It wasn't simply mechanics but game prep and mental discipline.  And his own remarks did not help him look sufficiently prepared on that front.

by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know,
Reyes almost never says anything to the press, so I don't know if he watches video or not.  At any rate, the real learning takes place on the field.

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But that is exactly what he said about himself
to the press before he went down to Memphis.  Reyes is a big boy.  I don't know why he needs all the apologists.  Let him take his lumps--whether it has to do with physicial location/control problems or mental preparation/discipline problems.  He's got to learn some more fundamentals to be successful in the Bigs.

Ironically, it seems like many fans have become "enablers", encouraging him not to change, which I believe is harmful rather than helpful right now to getting him back to where they want him to be.  He's got to see the reality of his situation and he's got to really fight to come back up (and not just pity himself for being treated "unjustly).  I don't see us coddling anyone else who bounces back and forth between the majors and minors.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of fans - "enablers" -
just repeat themselves over and over again, even though it will never make any difference in the entire world what our opinions on the situation are.

What Reyes does with his future is up to him. Us arguing about -- while healthy and fun at times -- in the end is nothing but a futile waste of bandwidth and an inch ever closer to carpal-tunnel. Aside from the Hancock fatality, this on going, soul sucking soap opera w/ Reyes is easily the least enjoyable subplot of my '07 season. It doesn't matter what the freaking subject is about on a daily post and/or diary on VEB, eventually some micro-thread in the post gets turned into Tony and Dave don't trust young players; something which is proven time and time again to be maybe not false but at least a half truth -- You're young, you're good, you play. That's their policy.

The whole subject has just gotten old now. Old and lame.

Bring him up. Let him pitch. Everybody shut up about it.

(I'm a lot more jaded after listening to Sigur Ros for two hours straight, by the way.)

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes the mentality to be a closer?
Closers need to be confident and able to get out of jams with runners on base and to not walk and hit batters very often. Besides, how many runs has he given up in the first inning this year? His first inning ERA this year is in the double digits.

As bad as things have been this year, and as well as the Cubs are playing, the organization owes it to the team and to the fans to not just give up in the middle of July when there's a single digit lead. The Astros were down this much last year with less than two weeks and almost came back. I don't expect STL to win, but please, let's wait until the end of July to start the adding-by-subtracting process, or sending Reyes out there again. The idea that he is seemingly more important than the rest of the team, or that he deserves such a disproportionate chance to go out and fail and get beaten down is puzzling to me.

by willievinceterry on Jul 17, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand
That Anthony is caught in the numbers game and is not pitching well this year. His performance with men on base has been awful and he needs to limit the number of pitches he throws per inning.

What I don't understand is what you feel would be a "proportionate chance to go out and fail". We have to understand what we have in Reyes before he is completely out of options and the club is forced to make a move, similar to what Detroit did with Mike Maroth. He would seem to be more worthwhile than a DFA-option like Wells or a castoff like Wellemeyer.

He repeatedly gets sent to AAA to get straightened out and, with a statistically acceptable bad start thrown in on occasion, pitches very effectively. He was a highly regarded prospect prior to joining the major league squad and displayed three quality pitches early in his career. But over his last 25 starts or so, he can barely hurl one decent offering up there.

There is a quote that I love that says, "The only common denominator in all of your bad relationships is you." From that it's easy to say, hah!, Reyes is responsible for all of his own failures, and you would be correct, as truly all of us are responsible for our own mistakes. But it is also true that the only time that Anthony has suffered significant failure is at the major league level, the only place where he appears to be a shell of his perceived ability. That means he isn't the only common factor in these failed endeavors.

We know that there is a thin line between genius and insanity. We also know that the definition of insanity is "to keep doing the same thing over & over, and expect a different result." It's pretty clear that Duncan, widely regarded as a genius, needs to change his approach and/or his plan to improve Reyes. A different pitch, a different way of teaching, a new set of mind games to get it through Anthony's (supposedly) thick head - whatever it takes to make this thing work. To do otherwise would just be plain crazy.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 17, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes....and I think a good start could just be
focusing on what he can do instead of what he can't do, and go from there.  It makes no sense either for them to just punt--they did the easy thing by returning him to AAA.  If they don't think he's got what it takes, deal him already.  They either have a little bit of doubt or someone in the organization with the power to stop a deal has said no.  Well, he's got two more starts to up his trade value before 7/31.....I guess will know then....

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm in complete agreement here ...
but I'm a little frustrated with Reyes because there have been stretches of time in which he might have helped himself immeasurably with just one dominant start -- something along the lines of his WS start last year.  Come on AR, if you get another shot this year, give us one gem.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes' horrible stats with runners on base
and in scoring position should put that idea to rest.  We have two maybe three good closers now (Izzy, Percy, Franklin).  Let's not keep expanding the Reyes experiment into new domains.

by nycardfan on Jul 17, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rick Ankiel 'smelling it'?
to use Tony's absurd statement about Edmonds, do you think Ankiel is beginning to 'smell the big leauges'?

In July,

12 Games
4 HR
2 2B
12 RBI
8 K
6 BB
.292 BA
.382 OBP
.583 SLG

He is having one of his better months as far as plate discipline.  The most he has walked in ANY month is 6, and that was to go along with 27 strikeouts.  He'd have to strikeout 19 straight times without taking a walk for that to happen again.

He has raised his season OBP from .307 to .322 since July 5 (or 8 games).

It's nice to check the Memphis boxscore everynight and see him being productive.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 1:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This tells me
that he's learning something playing every day.  It's important to remember that he's played A TOTAL of about 1 year in the minors as a hitter.  It's certainly good to see that he's making progress.  

He's already a capable major league OF, IMO, and he'll only get better as he matures as a hitter.  I still think he belongs in AAA for another 3-4 weeks, playing every day, but to me it's conceivable that he could be a regular as a major league OF.

by chuckb on Jul 17, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

rick ankiel AKA the next babe ruth
i'm sticking with my earlier post in that the cards should call him up and throw him on the mound one night at the end of some 20 inning game with no one left in the bullpen.  imagine a pitcher who could bat fifth behind pujols and duncan.  Whats the worst that could happen, a few fans in the upper deck get plunked by an ankiel wild pitch... i'd be honored to be that fan
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 17, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bugs
Sorry if this has already been posted somewhere, but check out this brilliant analysis at USS Mariner:

http://ussmariner.com/2006/03/12/bugs-bunny-greatest-banned-player-ever/

by punditmoi on Jul 17, 2007 2:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

haha
truly brilliant indeed
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 17, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

uss mariner is hilarious
check out this feature on the winter meetings

http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/22/offseason-adventure/

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 17, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade with Padres
I was reading MLB.com's trade deadline coverage and I came accross this quote: "GM Kevin Towers told the San Diego Union-Tribune that if he makes a trade, he is more likely to trade for a starting pitcher and a bench player."

That sounds like a perfect trade partner to me. We could get rid of one of our AAAA guys or possibly even Looper and get something in return. Obviously, for bench players we're typically not going to get much, but if a team is LOOKING for one, and we happen to have a fit, we might be able to draw out a better deal than usual. Plus, they have Khalil Greene at SS, so maybe they'd be willing to give up a SS prospect? I'm not sure about the state of their farm in terms of that position, but I know we could use a couple.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 17, 2007 2:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

WJ and Towers are buddies

by Hinkster on Jul 17, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade with the Giants......
their veterans are the oldest, LaDunc would like that.  Heard on ESPN everyone is on the table except Cain and Lincecum and Bonds until he breaks the record......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cool feature at Fish Stripes
They do a pretty cool thing over there where you predict stuff that happens before each game and there's a point total at the end of it:

http://www.fishstripes.com/story/2006/4/3/1281/58478

Any way anyone would be interested in doing anything like this over here?  Or does that sound lame to everyone?

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 17, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

YNOT
If you are interested in that, you are probably interested in CardsClubhouse's YNOT, where we do it for each series.

http://cardsclubhouse.com/ynot

by Cardinal70 on Jul 17, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lineup
per Goold:
  1. Kennedy, 2B
  2. Schumaker, CF
  3. Pujols, 1B
  4. Duncan, LF
  5. Rolen, 3B
  6. Encarnacion, RF
  7. Molina, C
  8. Miles, SS
  9. Thompson, RHP
No Edmonds, again.  It'll be interesting to see how long before Edmonds blows up on LaRussa.  If he is injured again, ok.  However, at this point it seems LaRussa is making an example of Edmonds.  He should play today, thurs, fri, sat but apparently won't.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 4:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I like that lineup
It's good to see TLR actually rewarding someone (AK) for playing well, as opposed to how he usually puts a guy on the bench after a 3-5 night with a HR and a 2B.

I agree concerning Edmonds.  Has it been determined if his back will hold out with him running all over the place?

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 17, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He says he can hit
feels no pain doing that.  Only was shaky in the past playing in the field.  He says "I'm ready to play whenever they ask me".

You never know, it could just be ego.  However, the head trainer said he was physically fit to play.  LaRussa said it would come down to a conditioning test.  After watching Skip almost kill Chris Duncan last night, I'd think Edmonds would be fast tracked back into the lineup.

Apparently not.

I also love that Tony is still playing Aaron Miles out of position.  I know that Ryan is your emergency 3rd basemen, but still.  Start the kid in his position.  He's the best defensive MIF we've got.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
Maybe Tony is saving Edmonds for extra innings...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 17, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know I wondered about Duncan and
Skip....they almost crashed a couple of times.  Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the corners were to defer to the center fielder.  

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Miles must have the goods on TLR...
I don't think Ryan is a top prospect or anything, but wouldn't it be more useful to give him the at-bats over Miles?
Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and still manages to be
a below average offensive player by having zero secondary skills.

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who cares...
about batting averages. You don't build any value by giving the at-bats to 30-year-old journeymen.
Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 17, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is our 3rd best SS starting?
I know Eck can't play everyday, but this constant snubbing of Ryan is borderline hilarious.

by lefty fan on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Miles has gotta be TLR's
love child or something. Tony's reliving his own playing career vicariously.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Borderline hilarious, but sadly predictable
Miles is a 30 y/o veteran.  Ryan is a 25 y/o rookie.  Q.E.D.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 17, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's the suglasses........
Even though Duncan and Enc also missed a ball in the sun because they didn't have their's on.  Ryan didn't wear his.  He's only here because Tony has no choice.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Goold says TLR filled the card out wrong
again.  He put Kip in as the starter instead of Thompson, similiar to the mistake he made in New York.

Seriously, what is going on with this guy?  He's borderline OCD at times with stuff, yet twice in the last 3 weeks, he has filled out the scorecard wrong?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you watched the All Star Game...
...he also apparently filled out that card wrong.  During the "Sounds of the Game" segment, Fox showed Tony rattling off some of the game's many between-innings changes/substitutions to the home plate umpire.  However, he announced at least one illegal change, moving the #6 batter to #7 or something.  They cut from the segment before the error was pointed out by the umpire, but the announcers commented on it.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 17, 2007 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe
he just can't wait for "Kippy" to start again.

for what it's worth, I'm thinking of boycotting tomorrow's game and not watching it.  I was planning on never watching one of his starts again until they took him out of the rotation, but then they did... sort of.  but I pay through the nose for Extra Innings, so I'm kinda conflicted.

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jul 17, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he probably won't be in the game long...
just tune in 30 minutes late and you won't have to see him pitch.
Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 17, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zing!
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 17, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't want to start a Rick Ankiel flame war
But I find it interesting that, in two half-seasons as an outfielder, he has amassed 145 RBI in 166 games. Just something to chew on.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 17, 2007 5:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

rolen
smells...i'd sooner see brendan ryan at third at this point.

by erik on Jul 17, 2007 7:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

just got in to watch the game
we have left 14 men on base so far????

by faninexile on Jul 17, 2007 8:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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