Game 12 Open Thread: April 16, 2007
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in his mailbag at the Official Site today, matt leach was asked: "What will the Cardinals do with their fifth starter (assuming it's Anthony Reyes or Looper) once Mark Mulder comes off the DL?" here's matthew's response:
pretty good discussion about anthony in this diary.
355 comments
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Yeesh
He has his chance right now, and
I like Reyes, he seems like a nice kid and a decent pitcher, but take away two of his MLB starts and... well... he still has something to prove. Go out and earn your job, Anthony.
That is where i disagree
"Forget everything the Cardinals taught you; Pitch like you did in AAA."
The guy had a
The demotion is his to lose right now.
Ya
Trade him and end the madness.
agree to agree and disagree
Apples to oranges comparison: I, at the age of 26, get a Junior Network Admin job, working for one of the best Network Administrators the world has ever seen. As he tries to help me out more and more, I take in what he's saying, but I don't fully process it b/c damn it, I've been a net admin for six years now and I'm already damn good at my job. Yes, I (re: Reyes) will still be able to do my job, but why won't I listen to my legendary boss (re:Duncan)? B/C we're hard headed idiotic 20 somethings.
I really just don't wan him to go marquis on us.
change up
er, small sample...
i was exaggerating
Another Thing...
Also noticed in his last start that he had Bennett
i'm starting to skip
re reyes
to be a starting pitcher takes consistency. maybe he just isnt very consistent.
i also dont see how getting taught a new pitch, would ruin a pitcher. he can wave off yadi anytime and throw whatever, whenever he wants. he may have tlr and dunc to answer to, but if he dominates, that should be an easier conversation.
you dont think dunc has said to the kid, do it your way, and if you can get past 5 innings then we wont bother you.
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 6:17 PM EDT reply actions
easy now...
and if they all are, Wainwright might be the one to get moved, if Izzy goes down or if the bullpen scuffles at all. TLR/Dunc wanted to leave Wainwright in the pen this winter, but Jock couldn't sign any starters besides Wells, so they were mostly forced to move him into the rotation. if one of the five has to go to the pen, i'm guessing it's him.
I'm willing to bet
Moving the new, work fast, pound the bottom of the zone Looper to a set-up role or even a closers role in the pen would make sense. the guy, for the first time in his pro career, has learned to pitch. And he looks effective and confident.
15 teams in the league
i agree...
The kid just can't miss bats
by Jonathan23 on Apr 16, 2007 6:59 PM EDT reply actions
I'm seeing a lot of good arguments here,
this isn't so much about reyes
most of the best teams in baseball right now are built on young pitching. look at the 4 lcs participants of last season: athletics, tigers, mets, and cardinals. the a's and tigers have their young pitchers in place, and the mets and cards are both moving in that direction. notice how even the spendalot new york teams passed on overpriced veterans this winter? they're filling their rotation holes with cheap youngsters like wang, maine, pelfrey, and hughes. the chisox dumped one big contract (garcia) for cheap young arms, and they're going to let buerhle go too; they're putting their future into the hands of gio gonzalez, john danks, and gavin floyd. the angels will sink or swim with saunders and santana and weaver the younger.
all the smart and successful organizations are moving in that direction, and it's the way the cardinals have to move if they're going to keep up. anthony reyes can help them get there ---- the organization needs create the conditions in which he can succeed.
trapping him behind looper and mulder is not the way to get there.
I agree 100 percent. But if I'm advising AR
It doesn't help him that Wainwright, with about the same ML exposure, seems to have things working pretty smoothly.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 16, 2007 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, anthony might make or break
but 2 months is too short a time frame. danny haren took longer than two months to get established --- a lot longer. alan benes hadn't shown anything after 2 months, nor after a full season.
reyes is being given a 2- to 3-month make-or-break period. but what if he needs more than 2 or 3 months to get it all figured out --- will the organization have the patience to let him develop?
i hope they will. they're gonna need pitchers like him to step forward.
It would be interesting to look back at
It seems to me that a lot of the howling about the Mulder trade took it as a given that Haren was already a hot commodity; now you're saying, in essence, that Haren wasn't developed at the time. (I'm not accusing you personally of flip-flopping on this, I don't know what you were saying at that time.)
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 16, 2007 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i never have flip-flopped
this is not one of those times. the cardinals won 83 games last year, and they're even older now than they were in 2005. taking a short-term view no longer makes sense; they have to plan for the future. that might mean we have to stay with some youngsters while they struggle.
It's possible to be right about
We're essentially in agreement. I love the idea of rebuilding with youth, going so far as to be accepting of mediocrity for the short term to build for the long term.
As for AR, I think his critics and his defenders both got some data tonight. The half-full glass is the fact that he settled down in innings 2-5. And he still has his own future in his hands.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 16, 2007 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll be interested to see
And don't envy whoever's task it is to figure out which pitches Reyes is throwing.
SilentBob re: Ryan
dont get me wrong tho
i just dont think we have seen enough to know whether or not he is a AAAA pitcher or a big league one, regardless of 2 seamers or pitching gameplans.
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 7:34 PM EDT reply actions
guess that ends the greinke slobfest
tonight he was removed after recording two outs and four earned runs in the bottom of the first.
he could still be pretty good, but let's tone down the praise-o-meter a bit.
Yep.
by STLCardinalsFan on Apr 16, 2007 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
in other news
i don't really buy
he's either a) hurt b) out of whack mechanically, and think the video jeff albert did proves that's probably not the case. c) being messed with by some goofy coaching.
Solid.
D. Eckstein ss
C. Duncan lf
A. Pujols 1b
S. Rolen 3b
J. Edmonds cf
S. Spiezio rf
A. Kennedy 2b
Y. Molina c
by STLCardinalsFan on Apr 16, 2007 7:48 PM EDT reply actions
i was just
6 man rotation
by johnstonburg on Apr 16, 2007 7:50 PM EDT reply actions
Wells
One consideration
umm..
i pray he pitches well so the reyes apologists and conspiracy theorists can just stop. it's ridiculous. he hasn't proven anything yet, so we should fire dunc and tlr to make room for the kid?
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 7:55 PM EDT reply actions
and i love them for it
er
the coaches wouldn't have won anything
and nobody's suggesting tony / dave should be fired --- no matter what happens with reyes. but they are not infallible.
And they also wouldnt have won
that's ridiculous.
- not sure to what extent the coaches won the world series. i think the players, particularly the pitching staff, had quite a lot to do with it.
- one of those pitchers was, in fact, anthony reyes, who pitched eight superb innings to win game 1.
- many people, here and elsewhere, have noticed that tlr seems to develop emotional affinities for certain players (e.g., so taguchi) and disdain for others (e.g., anthony reyes) that appear not to make sense based on the numbers. doesn't mean there's not some other basis for them, but just not by the numbers. and this frustrates people who would make different personnel/playing-time decisions (e.g., demote/cut so, stop jerking reyes around/making him insecure in his rotation spot).
- reyes was a stellar pitcher in the minors throwing a four-seam fastball; duncan has more or less required him to learn a two-seamer as a prerequisite for making the rotation; the process of learning and incorporating the two-seamer has coincided with reyes struggling more than some people expected, leading them to believe the addition of the two-seamer has hurt reyes' progress rather than helped.
- pointing out 3 and 4 does not really make anyone an "apologist," and certainly not a "conspiracy theorist."
Reyes ad nauseam
not saying they are infallible
i guarantee you reyes has had games where they let him do whatever he wanted, and it was probably the 100 pitch 5 inning performances..the theory is most likely to get him to pitch to more contact with a 2 seamer so he can go more than 5 innings.
he would have had a chance to come up as wainwright did but he is too "fragile" to pitch out of the bullpen, even.
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 8:07 PM EDT reply actions
If we could get an outfielder?
As far as replacing Reyes starts, I'd be happy with most anyone from our AAA staff. I'm just not as sold on Reyes as others are. I say deal him while someone else is sold on him.
by deanj on Apr 16, 2007 8:10 PM EDT reply actions
not sure reyes gets ichiro, but:
duncan
pujols
rolen
edmonds
kennedy
eckstein
molina
that actually doesn't look as good as i thought it was going to before i started. the bottom of the bottom half of the order still looks awful. helpful to remember that by moving eck down (which i don't think there's any question would be the right move in this case) adds 25 points of OBP to the leadoff spot (and 100 points of SLG).
ichiro's ops is only about .800, but that's a moderate improvement over instant breakfast, and his defense would be better as well.
"bottom of the bottom half"
I'd flip out
Reyes still has some development time and huge upside. He's only been in the system three years.
Ichiro's going to test free agency this coming winter.
you dont think he ever had a chance to just pitch?
your argument that the coaches played no part in the win, but yet have so much control they can single handedly ruin the career of a pitcher, doesnt fit..
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 8:10 PM EDT reply actions
One thing I like about Reyes
Let's go guys
ESPN is reairing last year's HR derby since they were set to air the Mets game. Why couldn't they just get bonus coverage instead?
What's going on?
Bay up
Reyes is the weak link this year...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 16, 2007 8:20 PM EDT reply actions
Dan said it..
He's getting every batter to 1-2
by CardFaninVA on Apr 16, 2007 8:22 PM EDT reply actions
Pull him now...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 16, 2007 8:23 PM EDT reply actions
Who do you have in mind
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Aw, come on, Reyes
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 8:23 PM EDT reply actions
Well
ugh
he just can seem to get them to go after his
Well,
Oh... heh. Sorry. Cards fans.
by 26thMan on Apr 16, 2007 8:27 PM EDT reply actions
Don't know why
Well...
by STLCardinalsFan on Apr 16, 2007 8:28 PM EDT reply actions
eh, I never liked it
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
GAAAH!
But Adam Wainwright... now there's someone who knows how to wear a cap.
by 26thMan on Apr 16, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
maddening
i want him to succeed, i do. but he's not. do we really think narveson would do worse than reyes at this point? cause reyes ain't even earnin his paycheck, much less justifying sticking around when/if mulder comes back.
finally an out
the ump wants it down the middle
Don't blame the ump
Reyes is just sucking REALLY REALLY bad. Pathetic is the word that comes to mind.
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 16, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
FINALLY
this is painful
by willievinceterry on Apr 16, 2007 8:31 PM EDT reply actions
I guess TLR knows more than us...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 16, 2007 8:32 PM EDT reply actions
as long as snell
That is
by Pujols Is A God on Apr 16, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Meanwhile.....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 16, 2007 8:34 PM EDT reply actions
Oh no...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Guess the offense
Thompson pitched in the last two games, so these middle innings will have to be eaten by Josh Hancock.
Unless Reyes starts getting a whole slew of first-pitch popups.
Well
Now if Albert can hit a grand slam wiht no one on.
i'll take that
question for you all
man i dont wanna go see Reyes on Saturday
by adam21 on Apr 16, 2007 8:47 PM EDT reply actions
I was at the game Reyes pitched in Houston
That was
by Pujols Is A God on Apr 16, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
have no fear
by snortyclaus on Apr 16, 2007 8:50 PM EDT reply actions
His changeup
He's let loose with it this inning and looked a lot better.
So what's the optimal usage of high heat?
Isn't high heat more effective as an out pitch than as something that "sets up" something else?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 16, 2007 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
apparently the optimal usage
The problem is that he/Duncan have completely eliminated one part of the strike zone. So the hitters just have to look for something down in the zone.
I like Duncan, a lot, but his fetishization of the ground ball has got to stop when it's obvious a pitcher isn't made to pitch that way.
How was he using it? Help me out here,
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 16, 2007 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
oh
Anyway, in the last inning he was throwing it to get ahead in the count, and hitters were swinging and missing. (He also got it up to 94, which I didn't see in his last start.) I think that sets up the rest of his repertoire--his main out pitches are that changeup low and away and fastballs on the corners, and when there's the threat something high and tight and tough to hit the batters can't just sit on the outside corner and hold up on the changeup outside of the zone.
no out pitch
i think even wainwright is in on it, FSN cut to him and duncan talking while watching reyes throw.
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 8:52 PM EDT reply actions
Or maybe he thinks he can still throw 94 mph
Seems like he expects hitter to just swing at whatever he throws up there and they are not in the least bit fooled this year.
Scouting report is out: Be patient.
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 16, 2007 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, just 4 more scoreless innings to keep our
sanchez
kennedy
Just as
by Pujols Is A God on Apr 16, 2007 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
comeon cards!!
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 9:05 PM EDT reply actions
darn
nice recovery so far by reyes
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 9:13 PM EDT reply actions
Reports of Reyes' demise
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 9:17 PM EDT reply actions
That's the first inning of any value
he's not good
1st inning was frustrating, and in the heat of the moment a lot of people sound ready to write the guy off. i'm not there yet --- not after two starts.
Lil Dunc
by snortyclaus on Apr 16, 2007 9:18 PM EDT reply actions
82 pitches
from yahoo
as a buddy of mine once said in a rainstorming
"man, those are some unlucky bums."
Not all that bad an outing by Reyes
quality start 6 innings
by Rentboy on Apr 16, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions
The K King
ha ha
Cazana! At least when he strikes out he knocks the catcher down.
I know
but I cringe every time PW comes to the plate.
It's come to the point where a strikeout is nearly a given. Can we please go after one of those D-Ray outfielders soon . . . please? Carl Crawford, I want you on our team.
extreme lack of hustle
Good inning, russ!
and it's ridiculous
Pujols
With two on down by three
by 26thMan on Apr 16, 2007 10:08 PM EDT reply actions
dunno about them
Come on Cards
What a god-awful bench
BB
in play (outs)
gotta do something
Why not a squeeze
well,
hooray stranding the bases loaded.
by longhornscardinals on Apr 16, 2007 10:16 PM EDT reply actions
dang it
They can hit yard, right?
After the 3rd out of the 9th inning...
Call up J-ROD now.
A starter who's been nails all night
Ya gotta have a little bit of brains to succeed in baseball, Skip.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 16, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions
Those were strikes
I have no problem with using Skip there. He hit a nice line drive in his last AB. It sucks that he couldn't get the job done there.
i don't think
Anyway whether it was snell or schu, he was massively overmatched.
why
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:19 PM EDT reply actions
holy cow duncan
Duncan should start in center...
on a bounce maybe
Dunc and AP get on
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions
this is it!!
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions
Duncan gets on...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions
yes
duncan is freakin' awesome.
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions
good duncan
can pujols tie?
yikes
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:29 PM EDT reply actions
who does paulino think he is
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:29 PM EDT reply actions
this is way off topic...
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:32 PM EDT reply actions
the look
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:32 PM EDT reply actions
jimmy
JIMMY!
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:36 PM EDT reply actions
jimmy !!
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:36 PM EDT reply actions
Good!
i guess there are weirder things
somebody just saw
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:40 PM EDT reply actions
Don't get your hopes up
And Rodriguez hasn't had a hit since April 8th.
honestly
This is
by Pujols Is A God on Apr 16, 2007 10:40 PM EDT reply actions
So's track record in the 9th is pretty good...
incredible
It was a joke
well played, sir.
still, AK is a heck of a second baseman ;)
obviously i don't know much baseball,
Eh....
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:45 PM EDT reply actions
once again
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:49 PM EDT reply actions
ah, the real
we;ll take it!!!
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:52 PM EDT reply actions
Attaboy Kennedy, atta boy...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:53 PM EDT reply actions
did the pirates
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:54 PM EDT reply actions
Not sure how I feel about the sac bunt
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:54 PM EDT reply actions
I like it.
Yeah...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Miles is awesome in the 9th
by enoscountry on Apr 16, 2007 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
no one would ever expect
Miles
Let's go Eckstein and Duncan
Eck....
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
Come on!
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
duncan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 10:56 PM EDT reply actions
Bases loaded for Lil' Dunc...
Hooooboy.
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:57 PM EDT reply actions
what just happened with miles?
That HBP saved torres
by Hollywood15 on Apr 16, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't get jittery, Dunc
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:57 PM EDT reply actions
not Duncan
pujols
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions
Okay Albert...
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions
you cursed it!
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
..... What?
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, well
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Blame Dunc and Pu....
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
second that about both
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Gahhh....
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Apr 16, 2007 10:59 PM EDT reply actions
Well
by 26thMan on Apr 16, 2007 11:00 PM EDT reply actions
great scott!!
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 11:00 PM EDT reply actions
web gems
guess I'll
continuing to swing at pitches outside the zone
was hoping for an eckstein squeeze...
or not.
by longhornscardinals on Apr 16, 2007 11:01 PM EDT reply actions
It's not Sunday...
by Pujols for MVP on Apr 16, 2007 11:01 PM EDT reply actions
had to watch gameday tonite
by adam21 on Apr 16, 2007 11:02 PM EDT reply actions
no.
by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 16, 2007 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
um, not likely
We had one out already
It probably wouldn't have been a close play--can't expect Paulino to screw up the same play twice within a week's time.
Glasses?
by cards fan in colo on Apr 16, 2007 11:02 PM EDT reply actions
I know still have the flu
this offense is pathetic. no matter how good your pitching and D is, if you cant score, you cant win. and the Cards cant score to save their lives.
gawd, i feel like crap.
Don't sweat it
no chance
by bennythejet on Apr 16, 2007 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
Albert's performance just goes to show
best line of the night on here
poor charlie
by adam21 on Apr 16, 2007 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
crooked numbers
(6-6) Cards offense:
Sundays .356 10.0 runs per game
M-T-W-TH-FR-SAT .223 2.0 runs per game
All of Pujols' HR/RBI have occured on sundays (in the day light)
I just knew someone was going to hop on that -
In the wake
Reyes pitched well...
After struggling through 47 (yup, I said FORTY-SEVEN...and his name isn't Carlos Zambrano) pitches in the first inning, he settled down and held the Buccos scoreless over the next 5 innings.
Don't blame Reyes. If the kid could ever get on some sort of regular rotation, he might do just fine.
by Big Red on Apr 17, 2007 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Reyes
There's no way
Besides, what exactly has Solomon Torres done that would get him calls over Anthony Reyes?
The strike zone is the strike zone. Baseball has made an effort to promote and enforce this. Just because some stubborn umpire wants to dictate the game, doesn't make it right.
by Big Red on Apr 17, 2007 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Believe me
reyes only went 5 innings
by Rentboy on Apr 17, 2007 8:52 AM EDT reply actions
looper got squeezed worse the other day
by Rentboy on Apr 17, 2007 8:54 AM EDT reply actions





















