Pujols rises, is not enough for 2001 Cards against Dbax

by Valatan on Mar 28, 2007 2:03 PM EDT in News Comment 63 comments

Cardinals vs. Orioles today. Gameday link here

Current spring training leaderboard:
AB Duncan 72
HR Duncan 5
ERA: Qualified Thompson, 0.73, overall, six at 0.00
W: Reyes, Wainwright at 3

This is always the worst part of the season. The roster is mostly set, the exiting young guys are back in minor league camp, and we're just waiting for the games that count to start. In a lot of ways, the last week of ST is more duldrum-y then January.

I just still can't believe that last October happened. It was the complete opposite of all the recent October's past. I still vividly remember being glued to the television during the painful 1996 collapse, when we all thought that the dark ages were finally over, and the Braves proved us wrong. Of course, the 2000 postseason with the Mets and Rick Ankiel, will forever live in infamy. I remember as particularly painful the 2002 disaster at the hands of the Braves, where we couldn't buy a hit off of %*#ing Kirk Reuter. Of course, the 2004 World Series still lies in all of our hearts as one of the most disappointing ends to a promising season.

But the postseason collapse that broke my heart the most had to have been 2001. Nearly everything broke correctly for the team in the regular season that year. The future promise of JD Drew as finally starting to show (an OPS over 1.000, and would have had well over 30 HR if not for Boomer's stupid fastball to his wrist. Darryl Kile was having a spectacular recovery from his Colorado days. Matt Morris had come back beautifully from his injury into full time pitching. Ankiel's decline and fall continued that year, of course, but that was more than canceled out by the rise of a somewhat unheralded prospect known as Albert Pujols who got his shot at the majors, and simply dominated, holding up the third base position solidly, while the Cardinals found a brilliant Will Clark to fill in for the injured and increasingly all-or-nothing Mark McGwire.

Every hope the team had dashed, they had filled in by another promise. 2001 was the perfect summer. And then it was erased by a stupid bloop hit by Tony Womack in the fifth game of the NLCS. That was disappointing. I still cheered loudly as they soared to break the Yankees dynasty two weeks later. But that will forever be my most depressing postseason. And that is what last October, the exact opposite of this, helped quell.

And that concludes todays edition of hyperflowery language theatre.

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As long as we're bored...

I just found our new right fielder for 2008, put this guy in front of Albert and he'll have a shot at Hack Wilson's RBI record :)

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6032

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Player to Watch: Kosuke Fukudome. The soon-to-be 30-year-old Fukudome is an on-base machine. Many Japanese hitters grow up playing the game with the approach that making contact and moving runners is the path to success. Of course, in some cases this is true, but Fukudome has his own idea at the plate. The past five years have seen him produce on base percentages of .406, .401, .367, .430, and .438, far above the average for Japanese players, and projectably stellar in the Major Leagues as well. In addition to his batting prowess, the Dragons' outfielder has a cannon arm, and regularly contributes double figures in assists despite opponents knowing they shouldn't run on him. The 2006 season was an MVP year for Fukudome, and he was a contributor to the WBC championship. He'll be looking for a move to MLB after the 2007 as a free agent.
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by mikedallas23 on Mar 28, 2007 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

2008 RF

Sorry but we already have a right fielder for 08- Juan E.

It doesn't matter if you like him or not he is under a backloaded contract (6.5 Mil in '08) so I doubt he is going anywhere.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Mar 28, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't need to be

going anywhere for another outfielder to be useful. In a perfect world we could demote Encarnacion to 4th outfielder status. He could still have 500 AB, but that would be much more palatable if he were used in CF, and platoon and defensive purposes as well. If you pick up a real RF'er, you can still get Juan his PT, but you don't have to start handing tons of ABs to guys like So Taguchi.

I don't know much about this Kosuke Fukudome guy. But it looks like he can play SS, 3B, 3 OF positions and is "famous for his throws to the plate from RF" -- he also can swipe a bag, slugged .653 last year, and has hit between 23 and 34 homers for the last 4 years. Sign me up.

by plh903 on Mar 28, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He does his LHed though

I typed "Japanese Splits" into google and it was quite educational. I just didn't learn anything about Kosuke Fukudome.

by plh903 on Mar 28, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

4th OF

There is no way the St. Louis Cardinals will budget in 6.5 Mil for a 4th outfielder.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Mar 28, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well sure there is

If the first 3 are making league minimum.

by sdrone on Mar 28, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure that

a situation where he gets 500 AB I should have really called him a fourth outfielder. I was just proposing a situation where he would be pretty useful, and they might be interested in another outfielder.

Supposedly they had talks with Soriano and a couple of other outfielders this offseason, so who knows. They really shouldn't be paying $6.5M for Juan, but that's another story.

by plh903 on Mar 28, 2007 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's that link to gameday

corrected

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_03_28_slnmlb_balmlb_1&brand=mlb

by baked mcbride on Mar 28, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

huh?

Can Braden Looper actually be effective as a starter? I know it's still spring training, but I'm starting to wonder. Not quite ready to drink the kool aid, but thinking about it.

by jeff abs on Mar 28, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's through 5

w/ 3 singles and no walks vs. a legitimate major league lineup. Yes, it's the O's but there's Tejada, Roberts, Mora, Patterson, Aubrey Huff. Pretty good lineup.

by chuckb on Mar 28, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

another good inning

one more inning, one more single. hard to tell how well he is actually pitching without seeing the game, though.

by jeff abs on Mar 28, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a man of history...

Not to rip on you Valatan, but

Cards played the Giants in the 2002 NLCS, not he Braves.
Will Clark was retired in 2001 and was brought over as a mid-season replacment in 2000 for McGwire, not 2001.

But you are right, the 2001 team was really exciting if only because you could see the young future of the franchise with Morris, Albert, and Drew. It is somewhat amazing how by 2003, the core was a bit older with Edmonds, Rolen, and Albert.

by JMedwick on Mar 28, 2007 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

2001 Was Beautiful

Yes, yes, I know the Cards lost in the post-season (in the NLDS, right, not the NLCS), but for Yankees haters everywhere (esp. those born after 1964), there never was a more just moment than Game 6 and 7 of the 2001 World Series. Johnson and Schilling, Womack, Gonzales! 13-0 in the 6th inning of Game 6! Triumphing in the 9th of game 7! Simply brilliant!

And little did we know that even greater infamy awaited the Yanks in 2004!

But 2001 was the year that the first blow was struck. And it was glorious!

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Mar 28, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to be picky

But 2002 was a defeat at the hands of the Giants.

That was the same year I saw a truly beautiful sight. My brother and I drove down from Chicago for the playoffs and stayed with a married couple in the burbs that we are friends with. We bought tickets for them and us for Game 3 of the NLDS. (We booed lustily at Alex Cintron - hsss! Still can't get past his name without disgust.)

Anyway, she had just had a little girl a couple months earlier and they brought her to the game. She was very cooperative the entire time. The amazing thing I saw was, while 50,000 fans were screaming their heads off in the eigth inning (and banging those damn Thunder Sticks), the little baby was sleeping right through the whole thing. I'm not sure which was the more profound feeling: that it was beautiful that a baby could sleep through that -or- that our friends were doing a terrible job indoctrinating their little girl into Cardinal Nation. She should be awake and aware of what was going on!

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Mar 28, 2007 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Will Clark was 2000, not 2001

and we lost to Kirk Reuter's Giants, not the Braves in 2002.

Still, 2001 was a tough way to go down - especially with Morris pitching as well as he was. If we could have gotten past that 2-headed monster of Schilling/Johnson, it's very plausible that we could have handled the Braves in the LCS, and toppled the 3-time defending champions in the WS.

fucking womack.

by musial6 on Mar 28, 2007 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Should we start to believe Yadi

has finally learned to hit? He has been the teams most consistent hitter in ST, something I don't know that anyone would have ever said about Yadi.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 28, 2007 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He was good last year ST

Here is to hoping he keeps it going this year, not just March and October.

With sno-cones getting 4 hits his last two games, the catcher position may have been the most production position all spring. Add another CS for Molina each day, and it's fun to watch (even only on gameday).

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Mar 28, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't know that I believe

he WILL hit, but I don't believe it is out of the question either. Whatever Oquendo did to get through to him last fall, Yadi has parlayed into a little better success, and who knows, maybe a simple change can make all the difference?

But damn, if Yadi could hit .260 and boost the OBP into the .310 territory, I'd be ecstatic!

by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 28, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amaury Marti

Whatever happened to him?

I thought he was going to be our surprise 4th outfielder in 2007, going .290/.380/.510 in 300 plate apperances, leading Cardinal fans to kidnap Juancion before the playoffs and not release him until more postseason hardware is collected.

by salvomania on Mar 28, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

His

role on the team is now being played by Rick Ankiel.

by DCGreg on Mar 28, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ankiel's my pick for

World Series MVP, 2007.

Yes, I do drink.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 28, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes I do Drink-ha ha ha

Constantly?

by gonzostl on Mar 28, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've been blamed for that 2001 loss

Because I was talking to a girl on the computer instead of watching game 5. One of my friends still hasn't forgiven me for that yet, and slips it into conversations constantly.

I don't even talk to that girl anymore. In some ways, I've never forgiven myself...

by Jonathan23 on Mar 28, 2007 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Lesson...

baseball is more important than girls. ;)

by saladdays on Mar 28, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've informed the new girlfriend

of this fact. We'll see how long that lasts.

"If I managed the Cubs, I'd be an Alcoholic." - Whitey Herzog

by cyko42 on Mar 28, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i didn't have to inform the new girlfriend

4 of our first 5 "dates" were her meeting me at a sports bar so i could watch the NLCS and WS. the "date" meant me constantly cheering and screaming at the television, with the occasional glance over to her (staring at me) to say, "What?"

that was what passed for dinner conversation.

i think at this point, she probably knows.

by nycbirdo on Mar 28, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Were those dates at Dewey's?

2006 World Champs! Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

by BozCardsFanSF on Mar 28, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am much like you

but instead of me telling the wife, it was all of my friends explaining to her that she had never met anyone as rabid as me. Nor did they know anyone who approached my level of fandom.

I mean who else has a tattoo of the ST. Louis Cardinals and one of the Arizona Cardinals?

I ask you...

2006 World Champs! Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

by BozCardsFanSF on Mar 28, 2007 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marry her!

by chuckb on Mar 28, 2007 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I shoulda...

told my wife that 'fore I married her.

by cardzfanbub on Mar 28, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I met my wife in 1986

which was our first summer of dating. By the end, there really wasn't any reason to do anything but pay attention to her. I've wondered what would have happened had we started dating a year earlier or a year later.

By 1987, she was committed to me, but it did come as a rude shock how much of my time I committed to watching and talking baseball.

She had it easy from then until the new millinium, but since then, I've not spoken to her.

by tinstl on Mar 28, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

choices

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life -- without even considering if there are men on base.

--Dave Barry

by Youneverknow on Mar 28, 2007 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Was she hot?

If no, you're not at fault.

by sdrone on Mar 28, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thank goodness for mlb.tv

you no longer have to make that type of decision.

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Mar 28, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2002 was the most painful for me

The team really had the look of a winner.

I missed fucking Lofton's series-ending walk off hit off of Kline (not to be confused with fucking Womack's series-ending walk off hit) because, as fucking Lofton stepped in the batter's box, the local news broke in to report that the D.C. area snipers had shot someone else. They went back to the game to show the Giants celebrating. It was creepy, and scary, and wrong.

by tdawg on Mar 28, 2007 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Reminds me of 2000

Only KTVI held out until Timo squeezed the last out to tell us about the Carnahan plane crash.

by Nate811 on Mar 28, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ST Errors

Another encouraging game today. but one thing they could leave south is the tally of errors that exceeeds one per game. puts them in the bottom tier. sad thing is right there with them is the entire NL Central exepting only the Pirates.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Mar 28, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

2001? 2002?

They were nothin'. Nothin'.

1968. 1985. I still bear those scars.

by Youneverknow on Mar 28, 2007 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

1985 was excruciating. Duck Don Fenkinger.

1996 was brutal too. Blowing a 3-1 lead was bad enough, but getting outscored 34-1 (approx) in the process? O-U-C-H.

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by TurdFerguson on Mar 28, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

85 was the worst

and I was only just shy of 10 years old. still the worst. how does anyone tell a kid that they saw something that was clearly one thing, but was called the opposite?

by madding on Mar 28, 2007 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Three things that give Cardinals 3 championships

Don Deckenger makes correct call.
Chris Carpenter stays healthy in 2004.
Curt Flood's first step is back in 1968

3a) Lou Brock slides at home plate in 1968.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 28, 2007 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chris Carpenter stays healthy in 2004.

I honestly don't even think that would had helped. Boston was a team that was hotter than any team I had ever seen. Stan the man and Gibby could had suited up for that series and I still don't think we would have had a chance. That was a very good Boston team and a very unlucky St. Louis team. However if it looked this way, we would have another World Championship.

2. Mariano Rivera closes out the Red Soxs

by stl3bagger on Mar 28, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I agree

Boston was just on a freaking roll. PLus, Chris Carpenter's pitching wasn't gonna get our offense going.

by sdrone on Mar 29, 2007 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am not sure.

In baseball, anything can happen. But, our bats were not idle in game one. It was a pretty high scoring event. If Carp were pitching, there's a pretty darn good chance we would have taken game 1 in enemy territory. Much like we did last year.

There's a big difference psychologically to coming home 1-1 than 0-2. In addition, Carp winning in game 1 would have meant he would pitch at least one more game in the series.

by RedbirdRay on Mar 29, 2007 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2001

after we lost the series to the dbacks, i went outside my friends dorm room and ripped all the signs from his neighbor's door and wall in one fell swoop and walked away. they were not home at the time, but they were distraught, it was like certificates on how they were school people of the month or something. in either case, i walked away and the girls that lived in the room never were the wiser, my friend kept my secret.
moral of the story is, there is never anything more frustrating than losing when you know (KNOW!) you should win.

by jroman on Mar 28, 2007 5:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Kirk bleeping Reuter

It's some consolation to know we visited the same frustration in the form of Jeff bleeping Suppan on 2 teams last October.

by rmerrill on Mar 28, 2007 5:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

IIRC, Reuter more or less

owned the Cardinals throughout his career, didn't he?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 28, 2007 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A Resolution of the Encarnacion Problem

Well, ladies and gents of the VEB world, it looks like you will be getting your wish. The latest word on Juan Encarnacion is that he's still injured, and will be injured indefinitely:

Encarnacion update: Juan Encarnacion still is not swinging a bat after he received a cortisone shot on his surgically repaired left wrist on Sunday. He will not be with the team for Opening Night, though he will travel to St. Louis to participate in the World Series ring ceremony on Tuesday at Busch Stadium. "I haven't done anything yet," Encarnacion said, when asked if the shot had helped his wrist feel better. "I've had a few days of not doing anything." Encarnacion will start the season on the disabled list, and it is unclear when he will be available to play in games.

Remember how well cortisone shots worked for Larry Walker? Yeah, right. He needed about one a game. So I'm getting the distinct impression that Juan's not coming back any time soon.

Upshot? This won't make anyone happy. My guess is that Skip and Gooch are on the team, and J-Rod's the odd-man out, at least until Gooch or Skip go bust.

My bet on the opening day outfield: Edmonds, Wilson, Spiezio, with Dunc coming in only after Glavine gets knocked. (Yeah, I'm not happy about it either).

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Mar 28, 2007 6:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

OTOH they worked for Edmonds last year

n/t

by sdrone on Mar 28, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Medical Info

Seems like half the time I post on VEB is to make corrections about non-medical professionals' take on medical situations. Here we go again:

Larry Walker had a freaking herniated disc in his neck that was pushing on a nerve, thereby causing horrible pain, as well as weakness/numbness into his arm. Cortisone shots did what they were supposed to do - knock out the inflammation and give him some time to play. So they worked. He had surgery AFTER the season (and the injections).
Juan E had surgery on his wrist. Scar tissue built up. Inflammation has set in. Hence, cortisone shot to decrease the inflammation. It takes a week or so to totally set in. The surgery fixed the tears BEFORE he had injections.

He won't go right into hitting after a shot, but it will hopefully get him back on track soon.

3) Jimmy Ballgame never had cortisone shots into his foot. He had "numbing" shots, probably lidocaine. I know this because he received one before every playoff game. No way it was a steroid.

Hope this helps.

by silent_bob on Mar 28, 2007 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I won't take the time to look it up

But IIRC J Ed had 1 or more cortisone shots in his toe/big foot.

by sdrone on Mar 29, 2007 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Start here, Oct. 6th

http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/content/player_news.asp?sport=MLB&id=1892&line=195882

by sdrone on Mar 29, 2007 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe he had 1 cortisone shot

but not one before every game. After that, he had what they described as "numbing" shots. It was probably lidocaine or some other pain reliever. Gold standard is no more than 3 cortisone shots in the same site per year due to the side effects. Remember Larry Walker had like 4, but they spread them out, and the last one did not work at all. It was done out of desperation - he new the risks and potential benefits, or lack thereof.

by silent_bob on Mar 29, 2007 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

any love for LOOP yet?

just wondering if anyone out there is happy about how good LOOP has been in the rotation so far. yes I know it's spring, yes I know the games don't count. yes I know yadda yadda yadda.

still, the man has been impressive when seamingly everyone was hoping and wishing and rooting for him to fail. now I'm not ready to say he's going to be in the running for a Cy Young, but still, he has not sucked. that's got to be worth something right? where's the love people?

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Mar 28, 2007 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

quoting myself

On March 14:

" . . . Not discounting all the well-founded skepticism expressed here re: Looper, maybe LaRussa and Duncan know what they are doing. . . ."

That's a little cautious love. A little. And cautious.

by Youneverknow on Mar 28, 2007 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wanna quote myself, too!

March 13th, referring to Looper having won the 5th starter sweepstakes:

At this point it definitely seems like an inevitability. Of course, if Looper continues to pitch this well as a starter, I'll be the first to congratulate Duncan on his sagacity and keen insight.

Or maybe the second, after Looper's agent.

At any rate, initial skepticism aside, I think all Cardinals fans will be ecstatic if he continues his impressive spring performance once the real games start.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Mar 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Much like Air Supply,

I'm all out of love.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Mar 28, 2007 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nicely played

Air supply references are always welcome.

They played at Argosy in Alton last year. They had a billboard up on 40 by the stadium. It was a scary, scary sight.

by silent_bob on Mar 28, 2007 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, yes

That billboard nearly made me drive off of the road the first time I saw it, mainly b/c I started thinking about this and couldn't stop laughing.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Mar 28, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now I'm calling him Looper instead of Blooper

Good enough?

Pujols > God

by joker24 on Mar 28, 2007 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

feelin the love

well when the spring started I didnt know what to expected from LOOP. I had fears like everyone that this would go bad, and fast. but also it could be a pretty good thing. I'm guarded in my opionion now about all that he's done. I'm pretty happy that all the starters seam to be doing well. but I just read that Darrek Gould has pointed out that no one in flordia is hitting. and all the teams in arizona are crushing the ball. so I think its best we take all the starters stats with a grain of salt. Carp is still the only prover guy the Cardinals have. I'm not backind down from my praise of LOOP. but now I dont know what to think. it does say something good that Tony&Dave are going to have him start aginst the mets in game 3.

so yeah, it's only march. lets see how LOOP and the boys do when the games count, and the wind it's blowing in at 40mph. but still, what LOOP has done so far after never starting in the majors, is pretty freakin amazing.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Mar 29, 2007 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually..

I have no problem whatsoever with Spiezio. Like it or not, he was pretty good last year off the bench, especially against RHP. Assuming last year wasn't a fluke, he could be very productive for us this year.

FYI: Spiezio put up a .251/.363/.555 line against RHP last season. His LHP line wasn't as good (.318/.372/.365) but it was certainly better than most of our bench. Imagine if we could get that kind of production out of him at second base, even.

by VORP is too nerdy on Mar 29, 2007 12:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My biggest playoff disappointment...

Is a tie between 2002 and 2004.

2004 is obvious -- that was the best team in baseball in a while, just ran into Boston at the wrong time.

In 2002, I had tickets in section 351 for game 3 of the World Series. The Cardinals have since prevented my method of getting those tickets (I had something like 12 copies of the window open).

by whopperman on Mar 29, 2007 2:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs