tournament diary: round 1, simmons v mcgee

by lboros on Feb 20, 2007 4:59 PM EST in St. Louis Cardinals News

simmons (7) v mcgee (10)
what did willie mcgee have that ted simmons lacked? look, i love e.t. as much as any of you --- i witnessed his first, painfully bad at-bat in the big leagues, as well as his last big-league homer. i'm a huge supporter, a longstanding rider on the "retire 51" bandwagon; but where's the campaign to retire simmons' 23? no, he didn't win an mvp award, and he never played a postseason game for st louis; but he did represent the cards in 6 all-star games and was their best player in a lean decade. perhaps more to the point, he was without question the greatest catcher in franchise history --- played 400 more games at the position than his next closest rival, and was the best hitter at the position by a long shot. to this day he ranks among the franchise's all-time top 10 in hits, doubles, home runs, rbi, and walks.

i loved both these players; hope it's a good series.

lineups and game summaries after the jump.

mcgee '90	simmons '77
mcgee '85	simmons '80
mcgee '96	simmons '73
mcgee '87	simmons '78
mcgee '97	simmons '75
mcgee '82	simmons '72
mcgee '84	simmons '79
mcgee '83	simmons '74
mcgee '88	simmons '76

GAME 1
simmons '77 makes his presence immediately felt: doubles leading off the bottom of the first (he never advances), then whacks a 3-run job with two out in the 2d. mcgee, nervous as ever, manages only two hits through five innings --- and loses his first two baserunners on steal attempts. he gets on the scoreboard in the 6th (walk, steal, single, sac fly), but simmons answers with a pair and cruises to an easy 6-1 win and 1-0 series advantage.

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	R	H	E
mcgee	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	1	6	0
simmons	0	4	0	0	0	2	0	0	x	6	11	0

H/AB: mcgee 6/31, simmons 11/33
2B: simmons 2 HR: simmons
BB: mcgee 5, simmons 3 SO: mcgee 3
SB: mcgee 1 CS: mcgee 2

GAME 2
after manging only 6 singles in game 1, mcgee comes out pumping: a triple and two doubles in the first inning give him his first lead of the series, 2-0. in the bottom half of the inning he guns down simmons '80 huff-puffing around third base toward the plate; the teds, undaunted, tie it up in the next frame. mcgee retakes the lead on a two-out single by '88; he keeps chipping away, poking at least one hit in each of the first 8 frames, but fails to do any further damage. simmons, meanwhile, isn't seeing the ball very well; from the 5th inning on he scarcely gets the ball out of the infield. the players keep grinding away and, at length, discover that 9 full innings have elapsed; mcgee's 3-2 lead is still intact, and he is declared the winner. it's a 1-1 series.

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	R	H	E
mcgee	2	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	3	13	0
simmons	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	7	0

H/AB: mcgee 13/38, simmons 7/33
2B: mcgee 4, simmons 3 3B: mcgee 1
BB: mcgee 1, simmons 5 SO: mcgee 4, simmons 1
SB: mcgee 5 CS: mcgee 2

GAME 3
mcgee's supposed to be the slap-hit specialist in this series, but the teds show they know how to peck away, too --- four singles and a walk in the first, netting three quick runs. the mcgees don't amass four hits until the 6th inning, and by then they trail 4-0. it's 6-1 when they finally get untracked, and despite some late extra-base clouts they never quite manage to bring the tying run to the plate. another snoozefest; simmons goes up 2-1 in the series.

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	R	H	E
simmons	3	0	0	0	1	0	2	0	0	6	15	0
mcgee	0	0	0	0	0	1	2	0	0	3	9	0

H/AB: simmons 15/40, mcgee 9/36
2B: simmons 5, mcgee 3 3B: mcgee 1
BB: simmons 1, mcgee 1 SO: simmons 2, mcgee 4
SB: mcgee 1

simmons' early leads in games 1 and 3 have neutralized mcgee's biggest weapon, speed: he has only 12 sb attempts in 3 games, and 5 of those were unsuccessful. willie's hitting just .267 / .313 / .343 and has only 7 runs so far in the series. simba has 33 hits against only 3 strikeouts; his aggregate line so far is .311 / .365 / .434.

series conclusion to come soon.

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Comments

Another test

of power vs. speed. I loved those mid-80's Cards but power should win

by chuckb on Feb 20, 2007 7:49 PM EST reply actions

I am guessing its not so much power and speed

as much as it is about [getting] on base ability.

by Zubin on Feb 20, 2007 8:39 PM EST reply actions

What Willie had that Simmons lacked

I think that is aptly conveyed through Brian Gunn's Redbird Nation.

"As Bill James writes, 'Simmons was virtually an institution in St. Louis, a pillar of the community. Bigger than the ball club. Whitey asked him to play first base, for the good of the team. Simmons said he's think about it. Whitey told him he could think about it in Milwaukee.'"

by Zubin on Feb 21, 2007 2:16 AM EST reply actions

i think bill james was just being glib

it's true whitey asked simmons to move to 1st base, and it's true simmons balked. but i don't think whitey traded him merely to prove a point. he traded him because

a) simmons was a 32-year-old player who'd spent 1500 games in a catcher's crouch --- ripe for a precipitous decline (which, in fact, ensued), and

b) whitey's master plan was to get younger, faster, and more defense-oriented. if simmons had acceded to herzog's request and moved to 1b, the accompanying move would've been keith hernandez --- a gold-glove 1st baseman --- to left field. can you imagine hernandez and dane iorg patrolling the outfield at busch ii, before they altered the dimensions? with george hendrick in center? that's what the outfield would have been if simmons had said "yes." guys would have been playing out of posiiton all over the diamond, and they would have gotten weaker defensively in both the infield and the outfield --- the exact opposite of what herzog was trying to do. i have to wonder how serious he was about the request in the first place.

the only logical place for simmons on that team was at catcher, and herzog wanted darrell porter there --- so simmons had to go. the trade advanced herzog's vision by bringing back two young, speedy outfielders with good gloves, lezcano and david green. (also a young pitcher, dave lapoint.) hernandez stayed at 1st base, where he belonged, and the young, fast, hungry team in whitey's mind began to take shape. i think that's why simmons was traded --- not because he wasn't a "team player," but because he didn't fit into whitey's vision.

and i'm not knocking whitey --- far from it, i think the trade was brilliant. he knew exactly what he was doing, and he had the guts to trade away the team's most popular player.

by lboros on Feb 21, 2007 7:07 AM EST up reply actions

+1

Nothing more to say on that. Dead on Larry.

In other news, Kevin Goldstein at BP produced his top 100 prospects today. I don't know what's sub and what's not so I'll only say that Colby is 50th and he's the 19th ranked outfielder.

by Brock20 on Feb 21, 2007 9:06 AM EST up reply actions

I was referring to Willie's humility

by Zubin on Feb 22, 2007 12:40 AM EST up reply actions

5 people

commenting on that 2005 post. I bet you never thought you would have to start a second thread back then.

by Schnake on Feb 21, 2007 8:48 AM EST reply actions

it was a very good post

by the way.

by Schnake on Feb 21, 2007 8:49 AM EST up reply actions

Another Loss

I've officially guessed every game incorrectly so far. hah

by JxMetal on Feb 21, 2007 9:23 AM EST reply actions

Trades aside

I still think Simba deserves entry in the Hall of Fame. Compared to catchers already there, his numbers demand that he be enshrined.

by Yadier on Feb 21, 2007 9:38 AM EST reply actions

Well I'll be....

Willie's last big league homer was the 1998 Colorado Rockies!

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 21, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions

what a game! on paper

OPEN LETTER TO J. Henry Boros, prop.

careful now, dont play dice with life.
however, i do agree with you and coover that the statistics are the only really interesting part of baseball.
did you realize that three potential hall of famers became unidexters in iraq in the last 4 years and were bitten by vermin in a sleazy hotel across the street from walter reed?
by the way, who was anna nicole smith's favorite team when she was a b-girl? and which team when she became a celebrity?

by dembitz on Feb 21, 2007 10:11 AM EST reply actions

Uhhhh...

what?

Sign Kurt Kepshire! The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Feb 21, 2007 11:45 AM EST up reply actions

yes, dembitz

WTF? Did someone forget to take their antipsychotics this morning?

by _pistol_ on Feb 21, 2007 11:51 AM EST up reply actions

evident the wash!

by nycbirdo on Feb 21, 2007 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

LMFAO

i agree that post seemed...well, a bit strange, but these responses killed me, and yes, it reminded me of evident the wash! great stuff guys

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 21, 2007 12:17 PM EST up reply actions

Hey I learned something today.

Actually several things:

The website for genealogy tracking of the family name Boros is currently having problems. (Discovered trying to figure out where J. Henry Boros comes from. Larry is listed as one of the Male Names on the site.)
The idea that the language of baseball, statistics, is more interesting than the game itself can't honestly be true. As it is with almost every other topic that could be written about, language can only describe or explain its subject matter, or the thoughts of the author, which have exponentially greater interest for me than the words themselves. (But thanks to dembitz for making me think about it.)
I am now aware of what a unidexter is - a person with only one fully functional leg, like Captain Ahab.
Dembitz has piqued my curiosity as to what HOFers, what HOF, & what type of vermin were involved in The Fertile Crescent and a military hospital in our nation's capitol.
Upon proper reflection, I have decided that I couldn't give a shit less what Anna Nicole Smith thinks about anything.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 21, 2007 12:11 PM EST up reply actions

re unidexter

i had to google that one, too --- and came up with this hilarious transcript of an old cook&moore comedy sketch:

http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/alegtoofew.html

not at all PC, but still very funny

by lboros on Feb 21, 2007 12:19 PM EST up reply actions

Is this Larry speaking

Or J. Henry? It's like I don't even know who you are anymore.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 21, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions

Larry:

Are you doing the Cardinals preview on Deadspin again this year?

It was good luck last year.

by Schnake on Feb 21, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions

Will is a Cardinal fan...

Even caught a couple of games at Dewey's. And went to the World Series.

But wasn't he the one who "outed" Albert Pujols re: HGH/Steroids which really ticked me off.

2006 World Champs! Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

by BozCardsFanSF on Feb 21, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions

reply to solanus

thanks for your curiosity.
let me clear up a couple of things for any one who might vaguely be interested. first the reference to boros and coover was a reference o robert coover, a rther popular novelist (somewhat dystopic)not heard from much these days. but, 35 or so years ago he wrote a book called, 'the universal baseball association, j. henry waugh, proprietor' i reccomend this book to all of you who haunt this blog because it delves into the psychology of baseball, its statistics and the obsessions of a mind , too deep into a game. (when it becomes more than fun)(not that this is the case here!)
comparing the skills and abilities of someone from the 60's with someone from the 90's brought it to my mind.
of course, lboros is no j. henry waugh ; that i hope could be taken as a litle literary joke.
but my real point, i think you got , which was that we live in a world of topsy turvy, where our 'best and bravest' are dying for nothing and our national news media are so deeply entrenched with a street girl named A>N>S> that we have no time to cover the fact that chemical weapons are now being showered on boys and girls who ,only weeks ago were taking their children to preschool and wondering whether their jobs were secure.
yes, little one, BASEBALL is important; it has been important to me for more than 65 years. excuse me if it is less important to me now that the bottom line is more important than the bottom of the lineup. i am not meaning to demean your priorities, i truly do notmean to. after all, i am a sports nut who listened to the indianapolis 500 on the radio before t.v. i saw ernie white and howie pollett win both ends of a double header (they were both in service within a year).
if this can take your collective minds off of the shameful state of our nations morals and values, i'm for it. your non-binding opinions on the state of the cardinals starting eight are much more to the point than a pusillanimous vote against the surge!
just permit an old man his little jokes and dont underestimate the power of a small serious thought.
once again, i thank you gratefully for trying a little thinking on my behalf.
by the way, i remember that skit about the one legged whatever and it was very funny

by dembitz on Feb 23, 2007 2:07 PM EST up reply actions

Reply to dembitz

Thank you, dembitz. Without further insight into the meanings of your statements, one might be led to believe that your comments are mere delusional ramblings. I see now that this is not the case and find myself made wiser because of it. Again, thank you.

I appreciate your collected knowledge and your philosophy, both of baseball and life in general, but it might be more instructive if you couched your teachings in more blunt terms on this board. Myself, I love a bit of puzzle-solving and obtuse references from various media, but your choices had me looking to just off-stage, where the prompter said, "I have no fucking idea where he is."

Please share your wisdom with us more often, but using simpler words. Remember, you're catching most of us at work, where our minds aren't much more than mush.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 23, 2007 10:33 PM EST up reply actions

good man! thanks

i always face the realization that when i write , i may be the only one who has any idea of what i'm talking about. my allusions are usually so obscure that only a talmudist or a benedictine monk would recognize the source. i cant really help myself! (how many remember when lon warneke pitched for the cardinals or who actually saw eldon auker's submarine pitch when he was with the browns? better yet, how many care?) (is there another man alive who actually wept when pistol pete was 'untimely ripped' from the cardinals organization or when that son-of--a- bitch traded johnny mize because he was going to have to pay him more money?)

but i think that it is worth a little more if you refer in elision to the little accountant who invented a baseball league to escape the extreme boredom of his existence, than it is to state that the humdrum of your workaday world can become sooo infernally boring; so let's jump into fantasy!

believe me you were'nt wrong, delusional ramblings strew the paths i have trodden, but once in a while . . .
i am recommending that you take a litle look at that book by robert coover; it is dead serious fun and it sort'a presages what you guys are doing. (and are you familiar with the little book an ex-neighbor of mine wrote about a team that was so good that even though they were bored to tears with baseball they could still vie for the world championship?) (senility keeps its name in shade)

so, since you did not mock me, you will be punished with continued maunderings.
i, for my part, promise to be less esoteric and exotic. i truly believe that the exercises that you all are going through are the most interesting changes that baseball has offered since 1946. i wish i could understandthem better! win lose or draw, the game comes alive again!
thanks again, dembitz

by dembitz on Feb 25, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions

McGee vs. Simmons

This is a tough one for me.

I loved McGee - I was 12 when he made his splash in 1982 and made the great catches in the 82 playoffs. I actually live in the same town as Willie these days. I've seen him a couple of times at the supermarket. Apparently he and Shawon Dunston are neighbors...

But Ted Simmons was King of the Cardinals when I grew up and went to games. He was a hitting catcher and one of the few bright spots on those 70's teams. And my dad would wax poetic about him.

I loved Simmons as much as I couldn't stand Bobby Bonds when he played for the Cardinals. I was 10 and there was precious little rational thought behind it.

But enough of the negative.

I'm also a firm believer this will end up Hornsby vs. Musial and it will be hard to beat Roger's great years.

2006 World Champs! Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

by BozCardsFanSF on Feb 21, 2007 12:57 PM EST reply actions