ZIPS and the 2008 rotation
ever wonder how bob gibson's career would have looked if he'd spent all those years in a radical pitcher's park like petco? Beyond the Boxscore did; here are the results.
what-if pitching scenarios are the theme of the day around here. if you don't like lotsa numbers crunched, lotsa tables, and/or lotsa ZIPS projections, go away and come back some other time. as for the rest of you, get out the ol' pencil and cue up the back of an envelope; time to do some figurin'.
my goal here today is to gauge the cardinal rotation in its current state. how does it compare to last year's? can we expect it to be better or worse? by how much? and under what circumstances? since dan szymbroski has generously provided us, at this early date, with the cardinals' ZIPS projections, that's the dataset i'm gonna start with. i urge you not to take these figures as gospel truth; they're not presented in that spirit. the exercise is so speculative and omits so many variables that we can't trust it that far. however, even allowing for a wide margin of error, this kind of guesswork is not entirely without value; while any given scenario is unlikely to be very accurate, by examining a range of scenarios we can derive a useful set of parameters and probabilites.
so let's get started. here's how the cardinal rotation performed last year:
2007 ROTATION
| GS | IP | H | BB | SO | HR | ERA | WHIP | ||||
| wainwright | 32 | 202 | 212 | 70 | 136 | 13 | 3.70 | 1.396 | |||
| looper | 31 | 175 | 183 | 51 | 87 | 22 | 4.94 | 1.337 | |||
| pineiro | 11 | 64 | 69 | 12 | 40 | 11 | 3.96 | 1.266 | |||
| wells | 26 | 139 | 169 | 71 | 99 | 18 | 6.28 | 1.727 | |||
| reyes | 20 | 104 | 103 | 38 | 72 | 15 | 5.71 | 1.356 | |||
| others | 42 | 205 | 251 | 79 | 98 | 36 | 5.62 | 1.610 | |||
| TOTAL | 162 | 889 | 987 | 321 | 532 | 115 | 5.04 | 1.471 |
the "others" include carpenter, mulder, maroth, wellemeyer, thompson, keisler, and troy percival (last day of the season, remember?). these results redefined awful; the starters in 2007 were 0.25 earned runs per game worse than the shockingly bad 2006 rotation, which itself had been thought to represent a nadir. we should remember that as we move through this exercise; although it might seem there's nowhere to go but up, things can always get worse. . . . . anyway, let's look now at the ZIPS projections and compare them to last year's rotation:
PROJECTED 2008 ROTATION
| GS | IP | H | BB | SO | HR | ERA | WHIP | ||||
| wainwright | 31 | 194 | 202 | 57 | 131 | 20 | 4.13 | 1.335 | |||
| looper | 28 | 160 | 173 | 54 | 83 | 19 | 4.84 | 1.419 | |||
| pineiro | 27 | 150 | 171 | 53 | 80 | 20 | 5.28 | 1.493 | |||
| mulder | 24 | 144 | 162 | 59 | 79 | 18 | 5.06 | 1.535 | |||
| reyes | 26 | 149 | 153 | 45 | 106 | 23 | 4.65 | 1.328 | |||
| carpenter | 8 | 48 | 48 | 16 | 36 | 6 | 4.10 | 1.333 | |||
| others | 18 | 95 | 118 | 36 | 44 | 16 | 5.68 | 1.621 | |||
| 2008 PROJ | 162 | 940 | 1027 | 320 | 559 | 124 | 4.82 | 1.433 | |||
| 2007 TOTAL | 162 | 889 | 987 | 321 | 532 | 115 | 5.04 | 1.471 |
ZIPS projects the 5 returning starters to make 136 starts, leaving 27 for other pitchers. well actually this isn't quite true; pineiro is only projected to 22 starts, with 14 relief appearances. but since we know that's not pineiro's intended use pattern, it's illogical to accept that projection. so i'm going to assign him 27 starts and maintain the rest of the pitching line (you're getting an idea of how scientific this is . . . . ), which leaves him with a projected average of about 5.2 innings per start --- exactly what he averaged last year. we also know that carpenter will return at some point, i plugged him in for 8 starts, ignoring his ZIPS projection (which is ignorant of his health status) and applying wainwright's rate stats to him instead. for the "others" category, i simply assumed the same rate stats as last season and pro-rated them for the 18 unclaimed starts. based on these assumptions, the rotation ought to improve by 0.22 points through sheer inertia; that's better than a 20-run improvement, or 2 wins, without lifting a finger --- sheer regression to the mean.
now let's make a couple more assumptions. despite being no great fan of pineiro's, i think ZIPS is far too pessimistic about him; in this league and this ballpark, he ought to do better than a 5.28 era. so i'm going to assume that he matches his FIP (st louis only) from last year, 4.80. if we make this change, our projected improvement stands at nearly 30 runs, or 3 wins --- without adding any new personnel. this is hardly a radical assumption; regression to the mean is a very well-documented, and very powerful, tendency. and realize, a 30-run improvement would still leave the cardinals with a rotation well below the league average. the suggestion is not that the rotation will become good if we trot the same old stiffs back out there; it'll just be less god-awful.
ok, now let's start changing personnel. suppose the cardinals sign curt schilling; he bumps reyes (the low man on the totem pole) from the rotation. schilling's ZIPS projection isn't available, but his era's the last two years have been 3.97 and 3.87; if he stays in that range, this change improves the rotation's era to 4.60, and the bottom line improves by another 15 runs. the rotation is 4.5 wins better than it was last season.
suppose the new pitcher is aj burnett rather than schilling (and never mind how we get burnett; just go with it). ZIPS projects aj to a 3.79 era next season --- but that's in a hitter's park in a dh league. put him in busch vs nl opposition, and that projection looks more like 3.35. but let's be conservative and say 3.50 ---- he bumps reyes, and here's how the rotation looks:
| GS | IP | H | BB | SO | HR | ERA | WHIP | ||||
| wainwright | 31 | 194 | 202 | 57 | 131 | 20 | 4.13 | 1.335 | |||
| looper | 28 | 160 | 173 | 54 | 83 | 19 | 4.84 | 1.419 | |||
| pineiro | 27 | 150 | 171 | 53 | 80 | 20 | 5.28 | 1.493 | |||
| mulder | 24 | 144 | 162 | 59 | 79 | 18 | 5.06 | 1.535 | |||
| burnett | 26 | 178 | 164 | 61 | 158 | 20 | 3.50 | 1.264 | |||
| carpenter | 8 | 48 | 48 | 16 | 36 | 6 | 4.10 | 1.333 | |||
| others | 18 | 95 | 118 | 36 | 44 | 16 | 5.60 | 1.621 | |||
| 2008 PROJ | 162 | 974 | 1045 | 338 | 614 | 122 | 4.52 | 1.418 | |||
| 2007 TOTAL | 162 | 889 | 987 | 321 | 532 | 115 | 5.04 | 1.471 |
now we're at about a 55-run improvement and close to a league-average rotation (the median nl rotation last year had a 4.55 era). intuitively, that makes sense to me: i'd expect a rotation of burnett / wainwright / looper / pineiro / mulder to be no worse than league average. but is a 55-run improvement in one year realistic? let's add a little context: between 2003 (when the cards' starters ranked 10th in the league) and 2004 (when they moved up to 4th), the rotation improved by roughly 45 runs. between 1999 (9th in the nl) and 2000 (3d), the rotation improved by about 60 runs. the cubs' rotation improved by about 90 runs between 2006 and 2007. this is not at all far-fetched.
the question is, where does that get us? don't forget, the cards' run differential (minus 104 runs) last year was a lot worse than their actual record; so even if we assume a 55-run improvement in the rotation, that leaves the team at minus 49 runs --- they would have to improve by 49 runs elsewhere (offense, defense, bullpen) just to break even. in other words, a 55-run improvement by the rotation --- whopping though it would be --- won't be nearly enough to make the cardinals into contenders. we're going to need every single one of these guys to beat his projection --- a 4.50 era from mulder, a 4.25 from pineiro, 4.60 from looper, 3.80 from wainwright, 3.30 from carp --- to get anywhere close to contention. if i throw the just-cited figures into the spreadsheet, the rotation era comes down to 4.28, a 75-run improvement over last year. that leaves the team within 30 runs of .500; if we assume further rosy scenarios (bounceback years from edmonds rolen and kennedy), then the cards have a winning club.
we can't say all of these things won't happen; we can certainly say a whole lot of things have to break the cards' way if they're going to contend in 2008.
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Wow
Throwin this one out there...and kinda random
I agree
i am an advocate of signing schilling
personally, i don't like him as a person, but i think he'd be a good fit for 2008
erik, are you sure they don't lose a pick?
The Cards would loose a pick
i guess it depends on the crop
Yeah, might wanna keep the picks......
I wonder if teams like Cleveland changed their strategy - i.e. whether or not they just stopped signing free agents when they decided to to young. Arizona, too, since they started out as a "let's win by signing people" team and are now a "play 'em young" team.
see my post below
100% agree
me too.
Right...
Of course, he could flat out retire after 2008 and we get nothing. Or he could stink or be injured in 2008 and not even be a type A or B when the season ends. Then we have lost the pick entirely. There are no guarantees. Then again, there are no guarnatees the player chosen with the pick they keep by not signing him amounts to anything.
by flynn on Nov 2, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
top 15
we would lose our 2nd round pick
So the net cost of signing Schilling to a 1 year, $13 million deal is $16 million. Is he worth that? Not sure, but he might be.
But looking at lb's analysis,
That's true
oh snap
points well taken
but i'd just as soon stockpile high draft picks and acquire a lesser pitcher. w/ their own 1st-rounder, the two sandwich picks, and the natural 2d rounder, they could have 4 of the top 75 picks this year --- which is what they had in the bumper crop of 2005. i think having all those high draft picks encouraged them to take a few more chances at the top of the draft that year --- they made some daring calls (rasmus, herron, mccormick) because they could spread the risk around among numerous picks. they weren't betting all on 1 guy panning out; as long as 1 of the 4 became a high-impact guy, they'd come out ahead.
glavine is type b
2 round picks
what about percival?
by birdsonthebat on Nov 2, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
We only lose a pick if Boston offers arbitration,
If he's only looking for a one year deal, and he's happy with going back to the beaneaters, then why wouldn't he accept arbitration? He'd probably make more off of the arbiters than he would on the open market, anyway.
My point being that
i agree
if it were football and he were outspoken people would love him like ray lewis nd chad johnson
i could give a crap if he were a scientologist who voted green party
hes a winner and a post season hero
Draft Pick
I still say pass
if your gonna pay him the 13mil just to help coach the young guys id say forget it...
Well,
Burnett
Wainman
Schilling
Pineiro
Loop
be well ahead for league average?
what about Mulder
Mulder
Ok lets say by June Mulder is ready. He has proven he can pitch at AAA. Then Loop misses a couple of starts to see if Mulder is for real. If so Loop stays in the pen, and we have a pitcher to trade at the deadline.
Then Carp might be ready to pitch in August or September. He will not be rushed! Playoff rotation
Schill
Burnett
Wainman
Mulder/Carp/Pineiro
Come '09 Mulder's option could be picked up IF he proves himself.
Carp
Burnett
Mulder
Wainman
Pineiro? or AAA replacement.
Is it fair
At the end of the year only Pujols was left standing from the starting 8.
I'm not saying that they are a 1000 run team...but I have to say that Cairo starting every game wont happen this year.
I hope.
This analysis...
The way I figger, all the Birds' "good karma" from October 2006 turned into "bad karma" in 2007. If the Birds can keep their "karma" from running over their "dogma", (Translation: "DON'T TRADE THE "KIDS" FOR A RENTAL!") they'll contend in the Central.
But I'm a cock-eyed optimist; I'm looking for "bounce-back" seasons from Rolen and Edmonds, improvement from Kennedy, and continued decent hitting from Molina...
Meanwhile, the Blytheville (Ark.) Chickasaws (the team I do play-by-play for) are 10-0 for the first time since 1973 heading into the state football playoffs, and the Blues look competitive! Life's pretty good!
Cock-eyed Optimism
Bruce Manno was let go along with Walt and signed on with the Braves. He's likely got a list of Cardinals prospects that he'd want to bring along with him to the Atlanta system who he values more highly than Luhnow and Mo. So suppose we were able to swing some prospects that Luhnow doesn't expect to be contributors but that Manno believes in for Mike Hampton and some cash. (Hampton's owed $15 million this year and Atlanta's on the hook for all of it.)
From all reports, Hampton's rehab is going well (and yes, I know we've heard that before.) A healthy Mike Hampton could be a dark horse top-of-the-rotation starter.
Then when Carpenter returns, we flip Comeback-Player-of-the-Year Mike Hampton for genuine prospects.
If the Braves were to pick up three million or so of his salary—and the stars align just right as I'm wildly optimistically supposing—we'd only be on the hook for a half season of Hampton, or about $6 or $7 million, all of which is offset on the books by Carpenter's insured salary.
It'd be a bold gamble for Mozeliak.
nice
It's pretty high risk
But if it worked out, Mo would look like a genius, especially if Manno's picks didn't blossom in Atlanta's farm system.
Wow....Hampton would be a real big
That's cock-eyed optimism!
Every Spring, I've been eager to see whether he'll have a healthy season again to rebound to his pre-Coors form. I'd love to see it happen with him wearing the Birds on the Bat.
But yeah, I know this would be a high-risk move that would have a lot of people screaming bloody murder over if any recognizable names were included. Jason Motte and Bruce Manno have a good relationship, so he'd definitely be involved if I'm not completely smoking crack here.
I have nothing against Mike Hampton;
Hampton would be cheaper
by TimJ on Nov 3, 2007 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
That's news to me
As stupid as it sounds, $8M isn't a bad gamble on Hampton. A rotation of Smoltz-Hudson-Glavine-James-Jurrjens doesn't leave room for Hampton and we're talking about two new GMs looking to make their mark.
How's Caruthersville doing?
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Nov 2, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right that regression to the mean
I liked the exchange
reader: How are we going to...
larry: ...stay with me! if we acquire...
reader: I'm just saying, how are..
larry: damnit, stay focused! with aj burnett in the...
reader: I'm just saying, we are going to have to..
larry: whose writing this blog, me or you? you are ruining my whole projection
reader: Alright, whatever you say.
I chuckled when reading "stay with me"
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
Stage left:
What was the ZIPS projection for last year?
by cariocacardinal on Nov 2, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions
What was the ZIPS projection for last year?
by cariocacardinal on Nov 2, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions
all the projection systems were inaccurate
so it's true that ZIPS was inaccurate. so was PECOTA; so was bill james; so was the average fan.
it's true that projections sometimes miss the mark badly, but that doesn't mean projections are worthless. each of us in assessing the roster is mentally making our own projections, asking ourselves "do the cards have enough pitching?", "enough offense?", etc etc. the common wisdom today --- ie, the cards need a #2 starter ---- is based on the general perception ("projection") that none of the pitchers currently on the roster is likely to pitch at a #2 level. hence it's perceived the cards need to add one.
all i've done is put hard numbers to that exercise, and then project a range of different scenarios to get a more concrete sense of where the team stands. obviously nobody can predict the future --- if they could, the games wouldn't be worth watching, eh? but we can assess probabilities. that's what ZIPS and other projections systems are useful in doing.
I'm not sold on this projections...
... as I was not sold on last year's Reyes projections. Let's try to be realistic on some considerations:
1 - We all know that, if healthy (and this time I expect him to be healthy!!!), Mulder can easily provide a sub 4 ERA.
2 - It is very unlikely that both Looper AND Pineiro would perform worse than 2007, expecially Looper, I do not see why he should be worse with more experience in starting, with better arm strength and stamina due to specific training.
3 - Just 8 starts from Carp? I was expecting at least 12.
4 - just having Rolen back with (for him) subpar 2006-like stats and Albert on two legs would add a lot.
In my opinion, this team, as it is (ok maybe just sobstituing Reyes with Shilling), could be a very nice surprise, because the ceiling is high just with players playing healthy.
After saying that, of course if they get some good pitcher without selling the important parts of the farm, I would be more than happy!
GO CARDS
Omar Vizquel
Would it be worth kicking the tires on Vizquel? Offensively, he's pretty terrible (ZiPs-.249/.314/.308) but then again, Brendan Ryan is only projected at .265/.315/.351 . Vizquel also appears to be a creature of his home park, seeing drastic drop offs from Home and Away this past season (although it was an inverse the year before).
Will his defense make up for his lack of offense? Over the last 4 seasons, his WRC above league average SS was 7 runs but his defense was +13 runs (hat tip to FJL blog). He has been, in essence, 20 runs better than the average SS (4 runs better than Jack Wilson).
I'd still believe that Jack Wilson would have a greater chance of replicating that statline than the 41 year old Vizquel, but if the Cardinals truly do not see Brendan Ryan as the starting SS, I wouldn't put it past them to consider a 1 year/$4m + incentives deal for Vizquel.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions
If Vizquel
Vizquel is Type B
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
umm...
It's a freebie pick pulled from the air, not on of ours.
I'm very confused
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Wainwright
I'd be shocked to see him with an ERA north of 4 next year. You pencil AW in with a 3.63 ERA, which seems reasonable, and you gain 10 more runs (1 win) over 180 innings. 3.13 ERA gets you 2 more wins.
by CardFaninVA on Nov 2, 2007 12:19 PM EDT reply actions
Larry, what about Burnett and Schilling both?
Anyways, what if the Cardinals moved some pieces to get AJ Burnett, dumped Looper for the payroll relief and signed Curt Schilling. Schilling's 13 + AJ's 12 - Looper's 5.5 = 19.5 or $118.5 M payroll ($3 M past DeWitt's projected payroll).
So, ignore that it goes over by $3 M. Just for arguments sake, what does a rotation of:
Schilling
Wainwright
Burnett
Pineiro
Mulder
give us as far as run improvement?
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:25 PM EDT reply actions
Valid point
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, the Blue Jays have no room for Duncan
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus
MLB trade rumors says they already have
what about juan uribe
Uribe - Type B
Didn't he stab someone? Who am I confusing him with?
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Could be.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Juan
Juan has more talent than Eck, but I cant believe any Cardinal fans would be too happy with Juan.
He supposedly shot someone in the D.R.
Urbina didn't stab anyone, exactly -- he attacked a group of farm workers in Venezuela with a machete. He was convicted earlier this year, and sentenced to something like 10 or 15 years.
Sidney Ponson punched a judge in Aruba.
More of the baseball legal blotter tonite at 11.
Why? Let's go down the list
- Problems with the police
- Started out the preseason lazy
- Refuses to learn anything resembling plate discipline
- Can only bat 8th, when they badly need a #1 or #2 hitter
- Defense even dropped off.
i should've know he wasn't type
Ben Zobrist
At worst, he'd replace Miles at league minimum as a switch-hitting backup MI. At best, he'd beat out Brendan Ryan for the starting shortstop job and deliver on the promise he showed as a minor-leaguer. Hard to imagine a guy who walked more than he struck out at all levels of the minors not figuring it out in the show.
Amusingly (to me, at least), the most recent mailbag from the MLB beat writer covering the D-Rays agreed with a fan that David Eckstein should be in consideration for their SS job next season.
mlbtraderumors
JUAN
I just think Juan is what Juan is. There is no way I see him changing at this point in his career. He has gotten by so far and will mostlikely continue the same trend.
He's overweight
Now, if we get to Feb/March and he can be had like the Nats got Ronnie Belliard last year then it makes some sense.
about Bob Gibson
and how are they compiled, but I do know that a lot of the stats can be somewhat inacurate
because of variables. In other words, the circumstances under which the player put up the stats.
and I am hoping that zips can uncover some variables
I found the link to the article by R.J. Anderson to be very intresting, because I remember Bob Gibson career
very well.
The first 7 years of Gibson's career was in the old Sportsman Park and it was a little "band Box" with a short
left field an right field porch. The right field had a covered grand stand and Musial used to hit 'em on top of the
roof fairly often as did a lot other power hitters that came to town. It was intresting to see how Gibson would
have performed under other circumstances. How many less home runs allowed, better ERA etc.
But what I found even more intresting, was the mention of Robin Roberts and the record setting home runs he
allowed. When mention of great pitchers of the past come up, Roberts is seldom mentioned, but he was considered
by many to be the premier pitcher of the fifties, because the experts then knew the circumstanced under which
he labored. If I could have any say, I would put him in the all time 5. The Phillies literately pitched him to death.
It would be worthwhile to go to MLB.com and look at his record. You will be astounded. He pitched over 3 hundred
innings for 6 years in a row
and the 7th year he missed it by 2. Look at his complete games, games started, shutouts. The phillies had no pitching
but Roberts and Simmons and a few warm bodies and Roberts for 3 or four years started all year on 2 days rest.
No wonder he averaged 26 HRs a year
Imagine what Gibson and Roberts could have done in new Bush stadium. The only other pitcher in modern day history
that compares to Roberts in Stamina is Warren Spahn. Give a look at his record too.
He also had to deal with Solly Hemus
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
come on
Anthony Reyes can't do that.
Solly Hemus was a racist and felt slighted by the rest of the world. He was constantly over reaching to compensate for his lack of intelligence and skill. He only got the job because he sent Gussie a letter kissing his ass when he got traded.
Gibson was 23 and even under Solly Hemus, at the age of 25 he posted an ERA+ of 137. Anthony Reyes? ERA+ of 73.
Trying to compare the two begins and ends with: there managers didn't think very much of them.
Gibby always had a fire to compete. Anthony starts wilting the first time a guy reaches base.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Why did I say Gibson was 23
Should read:
Gibson under Solly Hemus, at the age of 25 he posted an ERA+ of 137. Anthony Reyes? ERA+ of 73.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
For what it's worth also,
That is a point
Sno Cones, we hardly knew ye
Wasn't he hurt
in addition to some offensive contributions?
Zips sees his numbers taking a big hit on entering the majors - .245/.329/.419 - He's never put up numbers like this in any of his stops. In fact, his numbers have never dropped after advancing - they've just gotten better. And he significantly increased his line-drive rate this year and has a fantastic eye judging by his walk rate and according to his coaches. I don't see how this doesn't translate into more success in the big leagues. I think the numbers he's putting up in winter-ball at the moment seem like a decent guess - maybe a little optimistic on the obp, but it seems reasonable to expect an ops in the mid to upper 800s. Do you think this is a reasonable assumption? High? Low? and what kind of improvement on the offensive side of the game would this make for the cards?
by Birds on the Matt on Nov 2, 2007 3:32 PM EDT reply actions
I think if you trade Ankiel
I wouldn't be opposed to Colby starting the season on the roster but only if he gets 450 ABs next season.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with giving Rasmus a full shot
on mlb 2k7
anyway not that in real life arizona would do that but if they could trade a healthy jed for a young guy who has potential id do it...but may have to wait til July or AUg for thatif hes been producing up to that point...i see no team taking a High price gamble on him..but i could be wrong
My pet pitcher got claimed
Cardinals contact Schilling
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