27 September Morning Thread: Ach!

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 11:34 AM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News

First, let me point out a couple of positive things that we can take from last nights disaster:

Jim Edmonds is back: His 2/5, 2 RBI performance last night indicates that perhaps his homerun two nights ago wasn't a fluke, and that good ol' Jimmy E might have some baseball left in him after all. If this funk is going to end, we're going to need Hollywood Jim at full force. In the fifth inning, I was mentally writing a long post about what the return of Edmonds meant for this team. Regardless, I think he should probably be plugged into the cleanup spot for a few games, at least until Rolen slips out of his funk. Whatever horrible disaster ensued, it was good to see him (and the real, non-crippled him) back, especially if this is his last week wearing the birds on the bat.
Belliard hit two home runs: at the time, I though that this was the type of performance from a role player that should allow a team to overperform and scrap out a few wins. It made me feel slightly better about the Hector Luna trade, and that second one gave me hope that this nonsense was over.
Through six, Carpenter pitched through having horrible stuff on this given day: The nightmarish seventh cancelled a lot of the good feelings from this, but until then, I was impressed with Carp's ability to stay on the mound and log innings, and try to eeeck out a win on a day where he had off stuff and very poor location.

If you want a little more "cheering up" in a more sarcastic form, check out DanUp's take on the inner workings of the Cards medical office. Sadly, that dialogue is 90% of the way to believable at this point.

Now, how to dissect this loss? I have never really trusted Tony La Russa--I have always tended to contrast "genius Tony" with his Jeckyll-counterpart, "crazy Tony," who seems to spontaneously show up at the most inopportune moments. Genius Tony has transcendent baseball instincts, knows how to put players into the perfect role that optimizes their performance. He will mix up the lineup regularly to give guys some rest and to keep others sharp. Genius Tony generally does all the things that a manager should do, and he does them very well.

Most fans that aren't from St. Louis or Oakland are familiar with Genius Tony, and only Genius Tony. The problem is, for a few games of the year, in my mind, we get stuck with Crazy Tony. Crazy Tony freezes under pressure, and makes strange, strange decisions--he leaves pitchers in for too long, and has odd fascinations with semi-capable relief pitchers, who he puts into roles fary beyond their apparent ability. He will stick with the same lineup despite the depth of the slump it is going through. Crazy Tony gets in fights with umpires, and generally is the polar opposite of Genius Tony.

At least that's what I thought when I was in my late teens, and had seen Tony bench my favorite player from childhood, and then that horrific collapse in 1996, and then four years of horrible baseball, marked by home runs, and a horrible fascination with poor relievers. Seeing him take the same basic approach with the 2000-2004 teams, and to turn those teams into winners moderated me on him significantly--all of a sudden, TLR seemed to get the most out of guys like Kent Bottenfield, Dustin Hermanson, Tony Womack, Abraham Nuñez and Cal Eldred. At the time, I thought that he was moderating his more obnoxious instincts, and emhasizing his better ones, though this is something I doubt today--these guys were just better players than the Ron Gants, Donovan Osbornes and Ricky Bottallicos of the world, or at least somehow meshed better with TLR. By 2000, Tony had finally built his team, and once he had done so, it succeeded.

I lay out my history with TLR not as an apology for him, nor as an indictment of him, but rather, as a way to start to explain this horrible loss--it would be so easy to ascribe this loss to Crazy Tony--all the elements are there in the seventh--an obviously struggling Carp, who started the inning at ninety four pitches gets into an increasingly terrifying jam, yet still remains on the mound, with Wainwright only warming up in a very emergency-style manner. This situation ends with a gassed pitcher, with well over a hundred pitches under his belt on the night and faltering command in a game-breaking situation. The result is almost predictable.

Yet, I'm not going to put this loss on Crazy Tony's shoulders. The bullpen had been horrifically bad since Izzy's injury, and there had been no indication that it would not continue to be horrendous in the future. Further, Carp pitching his way out of that jam would have been a huge boost to the team--here's a guy, not quite himself, but who can stand up and get shit done when he has to. I can see the attractiveness to TLR of letting Carp pitch his way out of that disaster, so as to minimize the amount of time that the bullpen has to be on the field. It's not the decision I would have made, but it is certainly a defensible decision. Deciding to stick with Carp through all four runs in the seventh probably garners him some of the blame for this, but I wouldn't really put the bulk of the blame for the loss on his shoulders, however much that sixteen year old in me is screaming for me to.

So, who should we put the loss on? I don't know. This is yet another of those hair-thin, nailbiter losses that seem to baffle me more than anything. It seems most of these games really feel more like wins than anything, until something horrible happens late, over and over, and all of a sudden, we are in the midst of a seven game losing streak. I honestly am simply at a loss for words at this point--it doesn't make any damn sense. A year ago, Carp would have struggled out of that jam, or Albert would have hit a heroic home run in the 8th to equalize the score, or something. There was a time where I could have watched the eigth and ninth innings actually believing.

But there was a time,
you can put it out of your mind,
leave it all behind,
there was a time,
that time is gone.

We're just stuck in a trap looking for a way out of this series of losing streaks.

RIP, best Cardinal team I have ever lived to see. Maybe this will be a reverse of previous years, and we'll randomly see you show up when it most matters. But if not, I'll miss you.

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Crazy Tony

shows up more when the Cards are having problems. Obviously, I guess.

You look at, say, 2004 and 2005 - the first 6 spots in the lineup and pretty much set, as are roles in the bullpen. No need for Crazy Tony.

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 11:43 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah,

which is why I can't really blame this one on TLR--I've come to realize that Crazy Tony is just a convenient explanation, and that Tony is Tony, and that we're stuck with him.

Though we could have Dusty, or Grady Little. So I guess that's a bit of consolation.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Uncelo Tupelo

As my name indicates I am in fact a Cincinnati Reds fan. I decided to stroll over and see what Cardinal nation was thinking in these latter days of the 2006 baseball season. I am writing though to tip my hat to Valatan for working an Uncle Tupelo reference into his impending Cardinal-collapse-lament post. You may be a Cards fan; but at least you listen to good tunes.

Oh yeah...Go Padres :)

by RedsFan @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 27, 2006 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Uncle Tupelo

too excited about a Reds season that's not over by June to type.

by RedsFan @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 27, 2006 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Much appreciated, RedsFan

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds on defense?

How did he look? Did he throw ok? No hitch in his shoulder creating those damn lollipop throws?

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 11:44 AM EDT reply actions

nice post V

very nicely said. i differ with you slightly, in that i assign Crazy Tony more blame than you for sticking too long with carp. it might not have made a difference --- wainwright didn't have it either, and he probably would have coughed up the lead anyway. the relievers have let the team down repeatedly; you can understand why tony would have no confidence in them.

having said that --- you can't win without a bullpen. at some point, you have to trust them -- and the only way they can establish trust is to go out and pitch well when it matters. even if carp had staggered through that inning with the one-run lead intact, the bullpen was still gonna have to get 6 outs. if you trust them to do that (and you have no choice), then you might as well challenge them to get 7 outs or 8 outs.

by not giving the pen the chance to do its job, he pretty much unfurls a banner that says: "I HAVE NO CONFIDENCE IN THESE GUYS." i would rather have had him manage the bullpen as if its struggles the past week had never happened.

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 11:50 AM EDT reply actions

Thanks, lb

my main goal was to point out that there is another argument to be made about that decision--it was obviously the wrong decision, and I had a sinking feeling in my gut watching it unfold, but this, to me, wasn't like a couple of the disasters I watched unfold in the 90s, or even during the playoffs the last few years. This wasn't Mike Timlin coming out for a third inning of relief in a one-run playoff game to me.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions

amen

Good post. Its nice to disagree with someone (Tony) and then not say that hes an idiot. Personally, I would have taken Carpenter out. But I understand why Tony didnt and it doesnt make him a terrible manager.

I think Tony is getting desperate and managing that way. Cant say I blame him.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Sep 27, 2006 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I think

I think that we are all getting desperate for a W. Tony included.

by jroman on Sep 27, 2006 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

I remember back in the days - when we used to win ball games, Tony said "I think the reason we're doing so well is that every day this team comes out here expecting to win." I think it's safe to say that that's definitely not the mindset right now. Motivational pep talk, anyone?

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Sep 27, 2006 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Losing is a disease...

Wonderboy might be broken...wheres that durn Savoy Special?

Be Selective

by OKCardsfan on Sep 27, 2006 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions

i agree

that it was defensible. another way to look at it is that he would be on shaky ground no matter what he did --- that's basically what you're saying. if he'd gone to the pen and the relievers blew another one, people would blame him for allowing the bullpen to lose game after game. or they'd say he should have gone with a different reliever than the one he picked . . . .

my own opinion is that it sends a bad message when a manager deems certain players off-limits in high-leverage situations in critical games --- especially guys he has trusted in those situations heretofore. i think it rachets up tension throughout the roster, a phenomenon salvomania has described persuasively.

but that's just an opinion and it might be wrong.

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, I can agree with that

and I also think it might have been a perfect situation to see whether or not Thompson can be trusted in his 2005 role now that Wainwright/Looper are sharing closers' duties.

Really, what bothers me more than leaving Carp in there was not starting the seventh with someone warming up in the 'pen--what does it hurt to have a reliever get up and throw a few pitches, just in case?

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

re desperation

i think beanocook's comment above is on the money --- tony is getting desperate and managing that way. but i don't think that we should give la russa a pass for that -- i don't fully think it's "understandable." if the manager sets that kind of a tone, it can only foster poor performance --- or at least, it doesn't foster good performance.

he should be held accountable for not creating the conditions that give his guys the best chance to succeed -- just as he is given credit when he does create those conditions.

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions

I guess

I think its understandable in that, nothing else has worked. The players see that.

To me, I think its ok to expect your stud/your ace to go above and beyond the call of duty. Thats what makes those guys special.

I think Tony asked Carp to be special last night. I dont think thats unrealistic. Its one thing to ask a 4th/5th starter to do that. But we are talking the Cy Young award winner here. Not all players are created equal.

Regarding the desperate tone..I think everyone is desperate. I dont think Tony is the only one feeling that way. I guess what Im saying is...what is the difference between desperate and urgent?

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Sep 27, 2006 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions

no difference between

desperate and urgent. but big difference between desperate/urgent and calm.

instead of managing like the situation is desperate --- so desperate that players have to be asked to go above and beyond the call of duty --- just give players their normal duties and trust the players to do them.

if they don't get the job done, then you accept the consequences, acknowledge that your team didn't have the horses, and work on solutions for next year.

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

good points

But then a guy gets criticized (and I dont mean you) for going to the same ole thing even though it has proven not to work.

When EVERYONE isnt getting the job done it makes it tough to make the right call. Again, this doesnt absolve Tony from blame. This is everyones fault, mostly management (IMO) but down to Tony and the players.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Sep 27, 2006 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions

agreed

tony's moves will be scrutinized and criticized until the players stop making him look dumb . . . . he really was in a no-win situation last night. if he goes to wainwright, it probably doesn't change the outcome --- and then people would be screaming about that decision.

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Desperate, or playoff type moves?

I could go either way on leaving Carp in last night. He's the only pitcher I would say that about. And i suspect Tony feels the same.

He's your best pitcher, and near the end of the tank, but he's your horse and by far your best pitcher.

I can't argue with the move - and I am far from a TLR apologist.

The moves could be construed as desperate, but they also could signal a shift in mindset to playoff type managing. Fewer bullpen pitchers used, for longer and in tough spots.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I read it.

by BozCardsFanSF on Sep 27, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Gripe as much?

I would hope that the Card nation would not gripe as much had Wainwright been put in.
To start, I'll disclaim that I live too far away to see the game and could not listen, so I have pieced the following together from Sportscenter and box score.
Valatan speaks of the motivation to see Carp get out of that jam, but wasn't he in a 2 out bases loaded jam in the 6th? He got out of that one, and way to go. I even agree with sending Carp out for the 7th, but once he puts on or two guys on, you've got put in Wainwright.
I would hope that we could all see the good logic if TLR had done that, send your Cy Young Ace back out there for one more, see that he's done, bring in the pen. Even if Wainwright blew it, at least you were putting someone fresh and giving it a fighting chance.

"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Sep 27, 2006 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Leaving Carp in last night

was certainly more defensible than leaving him in to face Berkman in Houston last week, IMO. The bullpen had not completely melted down at that point, so you could justifiably have more confidence in them. I do think Larry is right though about the damage being done to the psyche of the bullpen by Tony's obvious vote of no-confidence.

Quote:instead of managing like the situation is desperate --- so desperate that players have to be asked to go above and beyond the call of duty --- just give players their normal duties and trust the players to do them.

Maybe something like this...

"Okay guys, after Ollie makes his 2nd shot...and you will make your second shot...get back on defense right away. There may be just enough time for them to get in a desperation toss." :-)

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Or, for that matter...

leaving Carp in to face Berkman in that Game 5 last year. I have never been more mad at Tony than when he left Carp in to face Berkman, except after that homerun landed in the Crawford boxes.

Funny what a miracle homerun can do to soothe that anger, though.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions

An interesting question

This is a question that always plagues managers. How does one know the best course of action to get everything possible out of a team?

Is it by benching guys who are slumping or leaving them out there so they can break out of it? Is it by having guys who are a little sore out there playing through it or giving them a couple days off?

Obviously different people manage differently and we don't know exactly why LaRussa makes some of the decisions he does.

He tends to feel better about leaving veterans--or his guys--out there and letting them struggle through it (probably because he knows that they have an established level of talent that they'll get back to).

Young players or guys in the doghouse on the other hand he tends to take a more bench-based/send to the minors approach because playing too much in a slump could convince them that they're actually worse than they are ...

This policy seems pretty rational when you've got the luxury of a number of games out in front of you and in the distance.

The problem comes in when he starts getting pressed for time, once there's a time crunch Tony's moves quickly become inscrutable. The 'Crazy Tony' that some people call him.

I think it may just be that he tries to apply a strategy that works on a macro level to a microcosm (like a single game) and it doesn't really have any predictable result. Plus the added pressure of HAVING to win a game may overshadow some of his generally cooler ideas that he has after the game sitting in his office or on the plane or whatever.

I obviously don't have statistical evidence or anything for this so feel free to destroy my crazy theories ...

by dontEATnachos on Sep 27, 2006 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Crazy Tony

Yep, I've got to side with the "too long" camp here. Afterall, Carp was at 94 pitches to start the inning. Someone should have started loosening when the first runner reached. After getting Branyan, it was fairly obvious Carp was on fumes. He couldn't hit location, pitches were all up, velocity down. With a RHB coming up, bring in AW.

'Nother thing I noted last night, that was Carp's ninth start in a row of >100 pitches. Then Tony let's him go 120+??? Yea, the bullpen's had its troubles, but really, you got to have some faith. Will Carp even have anything left now if we make the playoffs?

As my daughter would say, "This sucks monkey butt!"

by ArkansasTravs on Sep 27, 2006 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions

I 100% agree.

The '06 Cards- The New '64 Phillies?

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2006 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions

my favorite old saying...

"you got to dance with who brung ya."

i'm siding with tlr on the carp decision last night. carp's our guy. he's our horse. he's our man on the hill. and over the past 2 years, he's been money 95% of the time. (that number is just baed on a feeling, so statheads need not apply).

i'm of the philosophy that if i'm going down, then god dammit, i'm going down riding my best guy. period. i don't give a damn about anything else.

bottom of the ninth, down by 2, 2 out, bases juiced, and if i can choose, i'm sending albert to the plate. i don't care if he has 1 good leg, 8 broken ribs and still dizzy from a concussion suffered 35 seconds ago, i'm going with albert.

same with carp. he's my guy. i'll live and die with him on the hill. and i promise you this, i'll live 95% of the time.

by busch league on Sep 27, 2006 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not saying I agree..

but it's definitely defensible for the reasons you mentioned.

I wouldn't criticize TLR for that move or non-move. It didn't work out, but it makes sense. At least to me.

by BozCardsFanSF on Sep 27, 2006 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Man...

I am deppressed, I really wanted to grow a Playoff beard. I guess it wasn't meant to be.

by DimitroffVodka on Sep 27, 2006 11:53 AM EDT reply actions

meeeeeeeee too

by effin fisk on Sep 27, 2006 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Let's be honest...

with the way they're playing, even if they do make the playoffs we won't have time to grow more than playoff stubble.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Sep 27, 2006 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I grew a beard recently

Didn't realize I would only shave it if the Cardinals WON a game.

Looks like I'll be looking like Santa Clause come next April.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 27, 2006 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions

*Santa Claus

Tim Allen must have taken over the typing momentarily...

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 27, 2006 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I cut off my goatee

the weekend against San Francisco. I had worn it for nearly 9 years prior to that.

I didn't realize that when people said I looked 12 years younger that it would mean that the team would play like they did 12 years ago.

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Sep 27, 2006 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions

grow it back!

what are you doing? rogaine your face if that's what it takes!

by chuckb on Sep 27, 2006 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions

a word from a lost blogger..

was on the phone last night with my buddy and ultimate Cardinal fan allenbrent. Some of you guys may remember him, he got thrown off because he said the word.." rooster-sucker"...in one of his posts...some of you complained to larry, and then one thing led to another and he was gone. Fine..it's Larry's site and his to do with as he pleases but you know?....I've seen a LOT more offensive posts here than the one that he got thrown off for. ...anyway...
He asked me to say hello to all..and talking to him, reminded me that he was one of the few guys who said back in Aug. that the last series with the Stro's would be a sweep and that there was no way the division was locked up as many were saying at that time...me included. I'm thinking that perhaps we have now inflicted ourselves with the "CURSE OF ALLENBRENT!".....believe me folks, there IS no bigger fan of the Cards than this guy, and getting knocked off of this site really might have turned the gods against our team....I was wondering if perhaps you shouldn't let him back on Larry?...hell Pooo Daddy is still here and he was WAY more offensive than AB....and I'm thinking we can use all the good karma that we can muster... After last nights game...I'm willing to do anything that might turn the Baseball Gods our way again! So there you have it..Hope you will change your mind and thanks for the opportunity for me to voice my opinion.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 12:05 PM EDT reply actions

Back in 1982, after the series,

I said I'd be 38 in 2006. Can I get some props for that?

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions

allen brent got thrown off the site

for being unable to get along with people

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions

also

the baseball gods have more important things to worry about than allen brent.

by lboros on Sep 27, 2006 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions

perhaps....

but that doesn't mean he isn't important enough to warrent some forgivness and equal treatment as others have gotten here. okay..sorry..done

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions

dude -

what are you smokin?

by Urban Pawnee on Sep 27, 2006 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not smoking anything...

just standing up for a friend man...as I said...this is Larry's site and I have always tried to respect his rules and the other people here....but I miss having my friend on here to talk to....and just thought I'd nut it up and put it out there....if the answer is no...it's no...and you can think or say what you want. But I didn't think it would Offend anyone to ask.
that's all.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

He

was a bit of a pill.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 27, 2006 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions

well...again...

I would tend to disagree with you on that.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions

That's cool

it's all opinions. Can't blame you for standing tall w/ a bud.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 27, 2006 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Come on, man

Calling out other commenters by "name" is no way to engender good karma.

Don't we all share a common goal? Why are we, as VEB commenters, all of a sudden turning on one another?

Ever since this losing streak started, there's seemingly been an exponential rise in sniping at one another. One person will post a comment, receive a reply he didn't like (which he probably misinterpreted anyway), and he'll come back with something needlessly sarcastic like "Thanks for pointing that out, genius," or something along those lines.

Or a commenter will set a rhetorical trap hoping to bait someone into an argument.

It's this kind of crap I am getting sick of reading when I come here. I have enough petty bickering in my life that I have deal with. I do not wish to see it here, where I am trying to have a moment of happiness in an otherwise stressed-out, sleep-deprived existence.

I apologize, Larry, because I know I am way out of line. I guess I am pot-kettling myself by blowing up like this.

But I feel better now. Go Cards.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Sep 27, 2006 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions

and How did I offend YOU?

by asking to have a friend allowed back on the blog?.. I didn't call you or anyone names ...I didn't say anything other than give an example of another blogger getting reprimanded but still being allowed to still write here, for the sole purpose of hopefully making a stronger case for my friend to be allowed back. I will agree with you that it sounds like you are truly having a stressed out , sleep deprived existence, if something like that can set you off. Heres hoping you have a great nights sleep and a better day.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

How do you throw...

Poooo under the bus and call for good karma in consecutive sentences?

Tell that guy to start a blog. If it's any good I'll post my inane opinions there instead of here.

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions

I did not throw Poo under the bus....

well...let me state it certainly was not my intention....and if that is how you or anyone else really sees it....I offer my most heart-felt apologies. I simply was trying to use a recent example of someone being chastised on the site...who made an apology and was allowed to continue...I of course don't think there is a curse or anything of the like...I just was trying to make a case for my boy allenbrent. If I really did do something here that the majority finds truly offensive?.. I'll ban myself from the site if you want. I surely don't want to do anything to cause anyone here problems or anger. Is that cool with you now?

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Ok...

if you don't mind then, please ban yourself until the Cards win, the Astros lose, or Molina goes an entire game without fouling out...

I look forward to reading more of your posts next April... :)

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions

you got it..

have a good off season all.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah geez...

I was only kidding, sort of...

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah...ME TOO...

you aren't getting rid of me THAT easy dude! LOL

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2006 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions

seriously

Sarcasm and the internet ... sometimes they don't go so well together.

These posts all day have been having me feeling anxious that we'd break down into some all out war on VEB.

The only thing that's kept me going are all the comments about pancakes/waffles on the TO post at Deadspin.

That and the hope that tonight would just get here so that we'd know where we stand. Maybe we could have some sort of quintuple header and just get this all over with.

by dontEATnachos on Sep 27, 2006 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

good karma?

a friend of mine who is a boston red sox fan sent this to me today:

well, look at it this way....you are still in it, and there was once a team that was down 3 games in the playoffs against the dreaded yankees, down in the 9th inning, 2 outs - they won the game, and the world series (can't remember who they played :) )

Hope lives!!

by thatsawinner on Sep 27, 2006 12:30 PM EDT reply actions

This season

is certainly giving me a feel of what it must have been like to be a BoSox fan prior to 2004--teams with a few very, very talented players and no surrounding supporting players stringing together wins and losses almost randomly, and getting your hopes up, just to crush them.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions

you're right

and it is the randomness of it that's so daunting. each game we're so close and there's an amazing play by someone that i think will spark the rest of them and get and keep them on a roll. it hasn't happened...yet!

by thatsawinner on Sep 27, 2006 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Maybe Scotty can move down in the line-up?

He really seems to get out of his slumps when Tony puts him down in the 6th slot. Of course Tony pronounces him cured the next day and moves him back to 4th where he starts slumping all over again.

Oh, and cnnsi released the "40 best trades..." of the year.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/09/26/tuesday.scoop/index.html?cnn=yes

Now I'm thinking, 30 teams, 40 trades, that's at least 1 per team right? And with the Cards in the playoff hunt, and with some obvious problems at midseason, we'd be on the list at least twice. Yeah right. None of our trades made the top 40 for the year. No surprise there of course.

Did anyone else feel abandoned by management for not bringing in some big-time name player to try to help bring this club out of its funk?

Btw, where are those "best baseball fans in the world" at? Go back to your Tivo and watch the friday/saturday games at houston, listen to that crowd. THAT my friend, is the best crowd in baseball. Or at least, a lot better than the deafening silence that is heard in New Busch Stadium.

by redbird2006in on Sep 27, 2006 12:59 PM EDT reply actions

Cards fans are just about the quietest

..I've ever heard, at least on TV, compared to fans of any other contending team.

My wife's theory is they're just two busy with their nacho platters and jumbo drinks...

They almost never make spontaneous noise at those times you'd like to hear it: two strikes on an opposing hitter at a key moement, or 3-2 count on your guy with runners on and the pitcher rattled, or even just with a guy or two on and a chance for a rally...

Maybe all the nosise-making fans got priced out, or maybe the open end of the stadium doesn't hold the noise..

by salvomania on Sep 27, 2006 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Fans

I think the fans are scared shitless, and given the Cardinals' slump filled season, I can't say that I blame their skepticism.

by Ray Lankford on Sep 27, 2006 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Ehh...

It's a reflection of the team. Boring as heck team, bored as heck fans.

The stadium will get loud when there's something to cheer about. I went to six games this year. It got loud twice. That wasn't the fans, it was the team this year.

by whopperman on Sep 27, 2006 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

the new stadium

is not a noisemaker. It's quieter than Busch II .

Plus, MinuteMaid is a bandbox.

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions

And is domed

that damn dome really holds in the noise

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions

those sounds

are deceiving - of course fans will cheer their home team when they're conducting a sweep and getting back into contention.

The St. Louis fan reputation of being the "best in baseball" has more to do with their respect for and knowledge of the game, their respect for the visiting team, appreciation of hard work and extraordinary efffort (regardless of whether it comes from visitor or home player), etc.

Going quiet when the ace surrenders the lead in the late innings doesn't make St. Louis fans lesser fans than Houston fans.

Was it Thomas Payne who wrote of the "summer soldier" or "sunshine patriot" in criticism of desertions from the continental army during the Revolutionary War? It's kinda the same (on a far less serious level, obviously) for baseball fans. Are we fairweather fans? I think not! Even fairweather fans will cheer in situations like those we witnessed in Houston over the weekend.

The Cardinal Curmudgeon

by lawman3842 on Sep 27, 2006 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Indeed

These are times that try men's souls...

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

BP still has us at around 80%

to win the division. Why does it feel more like 20% to me?

Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 27, 2006 1:12 PM EDT reply actions

Ya know

It might just be, and I think I have just noticed this, that you're kind of a pessimist.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 27, 2006 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

yeah

the key to hitting bottom is falling right through and getting back to unbridled and detached optimism.

I remember back in 2004 during the World Series when we were down 3 games that I was trying to convince my coworkers that the Cardinals were going to come back and win 4 games in a row just to make it EVEN MORE PAINFUL for the Red Sox.

That didn't quite work out but I still enjoyed being the optimist against the sea of people hoping that we would lose. That's the fun part.

Now that everyone in sports thinks we're chokers, we can say oh well and enjoy are team. If they pull it out here and win the division and can somehow win the NLDS. What have they got to lose? That's the kind of looseness that helps win these things.

I know realistically that it isn't going to happen. But who here always looks for realism? We stay through the last out when we go to a game because we don't want to miss the comeback. We don't want to miss the chance to see some average guys do something spectacular.

So yeah, it's pointless and yeah it's not likely to happen. But I have fun imagining if it did and maybe, just maybe, it'll play out that way.

by dontEATnachos on Sep 27, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep.

I remember thinking that that game 6 last year was salvageable--I really believed that Grudzdialianek's 9th inning single was the beginning of an improbable rally. Of course, that just made the final out all the more painful. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Do you think anyone will offer me odds?

I think Houston is an even bet now. If I was a betting man (and not a Cardinal fan), and someone gave me odds, I'd place money on them in a heartbeat.

I honestly believe we will lose tonight and be left with 1 game lead (in the loss column) when Houston trounces Pit tonight.

Houston then faces Atlanta and we have four games with the brew-crew and possibly one with SF. I think at best we take 3/4 and Houston seems likely to sweep the Braves.

The '06 Cards- The New '64 Phillies?

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2006 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't know

Hopefully, the Braves are still pissed about getting bounced from the playoffs the last two years by Houston, and will be looking for a little payback. They have no playoff hopes left this year, so maybe they can relax and relish the role of spoiler. If they play like they did against us back in the summer, they could demolish the Asstros. That would be nice...

As for Pittsburgh...well...

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions

superstitions

i was just wondering if anybody had any superstitions that they have changed, after last nites game im changed the pictures on my wall i changed my desktop background anybody else have any crazy superstitions like this?

by truemun12 on Sep 27, 2006 1:15 PM EDT reply actions

Well

I turned on "Canned Heat" like Mr. Redbird did, but it wasn't effective. It did make me want to go watch Napoleon Dynamite again though...

I think I'm gonna just try watching the game sober tonight. And I'm gonna quit predicting that we'll walk-off against Hoffman...

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Do the chickens have large talons?

I have run out of superstitious ideas. We just need to outplay the other team.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 27, 2006 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I found a desk calendar

at work that had fallen off its perch and was laying facedown. The calendar was open to September 20th, the last day we woke up celebrating a Cardinals win.

It is now back in its rightful spot, with the correct September 27th date showing.

I have tons more, including not looking at the opposing team's players when they are on the TV screen, and making sure that my scorecard is up-to-date at all times when I'm at the game. (For the scorecard, we give up runs or don't score them if I haven't completed everything.)

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Sep 27, 2006 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions

re: fans at home

I know what you guys mean about the lack of enthusiasm at home lately. My brother and some of his buddies have season tix 4 rows off the grass in left under the party porch. I got to see easter sunday where el hombre hit 3 & 1 of em was a walkoff. I also saw the walkoff v. dodgers after the all star break. I ALSO the gary "sno cones" bennett walkoff against the cubbies. So, I always am the most annoying, cheeeeeeeering, da da da da dada chaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggggeeeeee! guy in my section. It really does seem that the fans for the most part have lost the fire, I don't know if that just goes along with what seems to be happening to the players? Or if there are just too many corporations sucking up all of the tix. That IMO is a MAJOR problem.

by snortyclaus on Sep 27, 2006 1:15 PM EDT reply actions

They're lazy

and complacent.

They just wanna be entertained.

It's hard work to cheer.

What's in it for them, besides a hoarse voice and sore palms?

by salvomania on Sep 27, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

funny

My four year-old was yelling his lungs out last night while I brought the harmony and the syncopated handclaps. While some around us were amused (though they didn't partcicpate), others looked at us as if to say, "What are you doing? Keep it down."

What is this, a movie theater?

Lots of factors involved in the different atmosphere at the new digs. I'll save you the armchair analysis, other than to speculate that anxiety plays a part in reluctance to get too emotionally involved. Only twice with Carp on the mound did the crowd get involved: the 3-2 to Branyan and the 0-2 to Cameron.

Contrast that with what we saw and heard last weekend in Houston. Puzzling, to say the least.

youneverknow

by meat on Sep 27, 2006 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions

more props on droppin' The UT, Val

adding another refrain from that same song:

There was a time when nothing seemed to make much sense
Now that's turned more intense
And all the crutches you've kept around
Now are nowhere to be found

youneverknow

by meat on Sep 27, 2006 1:29 PM EDT reply actions

fans

I do all of my posting on a phone so it takes me a while, but every game that I've been to this year I've followed at least half of what's going on in this post LB, I don't even go to the cardinals site or matt leach's blog. you should let Hardcore fill in once in a while, he's got phenomenal graphics pasteing abilities. since I'm on a phone (wi-fi is awesome) my browser only reads some, but always hardcores. back to the fans, I also think that the open end of the park lets out a lot of the crowd noise BUT that still doesn't excuse the lack of crowd support/noise.

by snortyclaus on Sep 27, 2006 1:30 PM EDT reply actions

I'm not lb

but I appreciate the implication that my writing could be mistaken for his

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions

there is an obvious difference

The shift key isn't broken on your keyboard.

The '06 Cards- The New '64 Phillies?

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2006 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions

But he DID

stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh Boy!

Wow, what a low bunch, the comments above say it all without saying alot.

I was pushing the limit this morning with VEB, Crawfish Boxes and 2 gamedays going simultaneously at work. Pretending googling highbrow engineering sites on another window. Can't say it was a letdown, more like a family friend passing away.

However, gotta look at the odds, the Cards are still the overwheming favourites...

If only we pass out of the '06 season with our heads still high - that's all I ask.

The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time. - Catfish Hunter

by klcard on Sep 27, 2006 1:31 PM EDT reply actions

el fin

"Maybe this will be a reverse of previous years, and we'll randomly see you show up when it most matters."

I have been crossing my fingers since June that our regular season ineptness (the opposite of those 100w teams) would translate into getting 'hot' at the end of the season because we would actually be in a race for a change. Unfortunately, as Larry and someone else said a few days earlier:

"This was a flawed team before the injuries"
"Another hole with no viable way to fix it"

RIP Busch II and the great teams I saw play there; here's to next year.

...but this is baseball and you never know....

by stash3630 on Sep 27, 2006 1:46 PM EDT reply actions

Llboros and I have had our differences in the past

but I hope he understands at what high regard I hold his blog. I was searching for 'birdos' graphics many moons ago for an MVP baseball edit and stumbled upon his site. His, to me, is the top Cards blog on the net. He's also collected some of the smartest Cardinals fans on the net to post in his game blogs.

Even his replacements Rev and Valatan are very on Braden Looper like, in that when given the ball, they don't seem to sweat it too much.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2006 1:53 PM EDT reply actions

un-Braden

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2006 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions

sorry valatan

of course in the attempt to suck up to hardcore for more comedic graphics I in no way meant to disrespect any of the current guests Val, Erik, or what's his name.

by snortyclaus on Sep 27, 2006 1:55 PM EDT reply actions

Every year about this time

I come to this huge smack of reality; what the f%$#@ have I been doing every summer for the last 26 years rooting for the Cardinals?? All of the energy and immeasurable time I have invested.....it's kind of like falling desparately and totally in love with a woman, only to find out in October that the woman you have agonized over and sent hundreds of dollars of flowers to is not only married, but is also a transvestite.

I probably think about this stuff too much......

by cardsnutincali on Sep 27, 2006 2:04 PM EDT reply actions

Now now

it's not that bad. I think you're referring to the "losing to the Cubs in the World Series in 4 straight the year after they transfer to the American League" scenario.

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions

The 64 Phillies

It has taken a while, but the St. Louis Cardinals are on the brink of an El Foldo of the magnitude of the infamous 64 Phils.
Last night, you could hear it in the voice of the announcers. You could see the frustration on Albert's face.
It's not likely that this team will win another game this season. But just one more win would give us a chance to limp into the playoffs.
And that's important.
The '06 Cardinals are about to join the Phils, the Cubs and the 51 Dodgers as teams that have blown huge leads late in the season.
Sure, we expected to be blown out of the playoffs but we never expected this total collapse.
In Philly this past weekend, they were still talking about the team that broke hearts in 64, and how it became part of the cachet of a downtrodden franchise.
The proud Cardinal franchise need to win some games this weekend, or we'll be talking about this tank job in 2050.
It hasn't been pretty, and this weekend may forever live in infamy for Cardinal fans.

by Louisville Slugger on Sep 27, 2006 2:29 PM EDT reply actions

Let's all just stop talking about the

fucking 64 Phillies!!!!!!!!!!!

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 27, 2006 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Amen.

Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 27, 2006 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Why?

I think you better get used to the '64 Phillies comparison, cause it will be envoked a lot if and when the Astros make the playoffs. And if they do, they aren't likely to be bounced in the first round.

The '06 Cards- The New '64 Phillies?

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2006 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Come on

They won't lose every game for the rest of the season--all of these losses have been close, and Edmonds is back and producing. It is still at the point where I'm expecting them to win the division. This stretch has been depressing, and they probably won't make it far at all in the playoffs, but they are still very likely going to win the division.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions

and the astros

won't continue to win every game either. even mediocre teams like these two don't go on 13-14 game winning or losing streaks. (knock on wood)

by chuckb on Sep 27, 2006 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Possible Scenario

Not that it's likely, but IF the Cards have to play the Giants in that make-up game on Monday, guess who's turn it is to pitch for the Giants?

You guessed it. Matt Morris. Morris pitched yesterday, and the G-men have four more games remaining, meaning It'd be his turn.

Wild stuff.

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Sep 27, 2006 2:30 PM EDT reply actions

Matt's a good guy...

he'd tank for us on purpose. Maybe leave a hanger or two over the middle of the plate for Albert.

Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 27, 2006 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Even after we didn't offer him enough $?

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 27, 2006 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions

BIRDS ON THE BAT

LET'S DO THIS.....GET OFF THE SCHNEID!!!!!!!!!!

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 27, 2006 2:47 PM EDT reply actions

OH SHIT........

this SD pitcher is good...and better on the road. and his name is Chris Young. or C. Young. or a little to damn close to Cy Young for my tastes.

but we're at home, we're at home, we're at home, we're at home.........

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 27, 2006 2:51 PM EDT reply actions

Speaking of old friends/new foes

Did you see Woody and Albert laughing and smiling bakc and forth last night. I was glad to see that. I kinda felt bad for woddy when the Padres made 2 errors in one inning to give us a 3 run lead. Then I took it all back when we turned over and gave him the game.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Sep 27, 2006 2:57 PM EDT reply actions

About last night...

Everyone has been talking about why Wainwright wasn't brought in earlier last night, leaving a struggling Carp floundering on the mound (hey, two fish references in one sentence!) At StlToday, Bernie points out that there were two lefties due up in short order (Bard and Branyan) and that AW has a .295 BAA with lefties, so there was some reasoning behind not bringing him in right away... (there's NO explanation for why Carp was allowed to face Cameron).

What I want to know is: why not Hancock? Hancock has mostly been very solid this year and he has good lefty/right splits: .235 vs. RH; .233 vs. LH. Seems like the perfect spot for Hancock.

by punditmoi on Sep 27, 2006 3:31 PM EDT reply actions

You should of seen me

Last night I looked absoutely Pathetic. I was curled in a ball on my couch in the bottom of the ninth. I didn't want to watch but I had too. Watching us strike out with pitches out of the zone make turn my head away like I was watching someone getting totured.

I don't even know how I still have hope. Its all I got.

by DimitroffVodka on Sep 27, 2006 3:34 PM EDT reply actions

Don't feel too bad...

...I went and got in the shower after the game and it took me about a minute to realize I was standing there without the water on.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2006 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions

I had a few more beers

It helped quite a bit.

I'm paying for it today though...

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

i have this numb feeling

and can't go to bed. so i go and watch the Daily Show and laugh a little bit before I go lay down to bed.

by chuckb on Sep 27, 2006 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions

This is pathetic

Another loss and I'm calling the season over.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat

by cardsfan84 on Sep 27, 2006 3:37 PM EDT reply actions

superstitions

I have to watch the game in the same chair. I NEVER listen to Joe Morgan anymore. I put it on mute and have the radio on. I won't flip through channels during commercials if someone hits a homer for us during our last at bat. I change the channel immediatly if the opposing team hits a homer. If i flip back and they hit another homer, Game over: I turn on reruns of How I Met Your Mother.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Sep 27, 2006 3:56 PM EDT reply actions

Never listen to Joe Morgan

In my mind, this is not a superstition. It's just preservation of your sanity.

by calico30 on Sep 27, 2006 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Well back when Joe Morgan

was part of the Big Red Machine in the '70's most fans weren't able to just press "mute" on their remote controls; they had to actually get up and go over to the TV to turn down the sound...

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

TLR

Hello there from a new poster! I will have to say, first off, that I am not, and have never been a TLR fan. Tony only looks really good when he has such an overwhelming talent-laden team that he cannot lose.

Honestly, I think of a good manager or coach someone who makes the team better for having his/her presence. TLR has not done that. Yes, he won at Oakland with McGwire, Canseco, Stewart, and Eckersley. He also won in St. Louis with Edmonds, Rolen, Pujols, Carpenter, Kyle, Isringhausen, Morris, etc.... This team, until this year, was a talent-rich veteran ballclub. It was not a hard club to manage.

The few years he has actually HAD to manage, he has, in my opinion, failed at his task. This was a team we all knew that lacked veteran depth, but had some good young talent. This SHOULD have been TLR's defining moment as a manager, but it has turned out to be a glaring expose on his inability to make a decent team good or a good team better.

He has made many absolutely indefensible decisions as a manager this year. Why trot Mulder out there time and time again? Why trot Izzy out, when you KNOW he is hurting and the lubricant injections aren't working well any more? WHY call Jimmy Ballgame out in front of the media? Post-concussion syndrome is a terrible thing to deal with, and belittling a player in public (during a contract-year no less) is not going to speed Jimmy's recovery. WHY run Rolen into the ground? Look at his bat speed right now. The only thing he can hit is a slow breaking ball. He cannot hit a good fastball that's up in the zone. His shoulder has to be bothering him, no matter WHAT he says. WHY send Carpenter to the mound to finish a ballgame when he is over 100 pitches, it is September, and the Cards were leading 5-0? Why skip a start at the Big Show with Reyes due to a tired arm after letting him make 2 starts in the minors?

As I mentioned earlier, Tony looks good as a manager only on talent-rich, veteran-dominated ballclubs. I don't know a lot of managers that wouldn't look good in that situation.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Sep 27, 2006 3:57 PM EDT reply actions

Eh. I remember a Cards vs. Cubs

game a few years ago. 2003? I think. Tony made some late inning pitching maneuvers that forced Baker's hand and made Baker look pretty dumb.

Now, sure, it's Baker. But many times it works.

Why call Edmonds out? I guess 'cause Edmonds is probably ready to go. It seemed to work in this case.

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions

re: tlr

last night's move of staying with a starting pitcher too long is (as well-stated by val) exactly what drives many of us nuts about tlr. however, i would respectfully disagree with lb's appraisal that:

"my own opinion is that it sends a bad message when a manager deems certain players off-limits in high-leverage situations in critical games --- especially guys he has trusted in those situations heretofore. i think it rachets up tension throughout the roster."

i can't completely blame tony for not going to a pen that has gone 0-6 during their most recent appearances. i can't completely blame him for sticking with the exhausted carp as, in his own words - "I think he's the best guy we've got in that situation." that's different from making players off limits. he's just going with his best bet to win.

i can't disagree w/ tony here. it's possible wainright or any of our other suggestions would have gotten cameron, but can we say that tlr's evaluation was wrong.

i parallel it to el hombre's ab in the 8th. he appeared to be (uncharacteristically) swinging for the fences as if he knew if he didn't get it done, no one would. and just as i believed that lb's prediction regarding the heroism of a replacement level player was about to come true in the person of belly.

by sdesserman on Sep 27, 2006 4:00 PM EDT reply actions

Hey Edmonds!

Edmonds, you gotta believe that Joe Morgan is funny!

Here is what he said about the Yankees on ESPNRadio yesterday.

"The Yankees are dangerous in two ways. The first way is with their everyday lineup. They can really hurt you. The second way is that they can score a LOT of runs."

HUH???

Oh man, I had to pull off the side of the road, I was laughing so hard.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Sep 27, 2006 4:01 PM EDT reply actions

Player Injuries vs S&M

[NOTE: I am reposting this, as I think it got lost at the end of an initial game thread a few days ago. It's either that, or everyone thought, "Oh, don't pay attention to Solanus; you'll only encourage him." ;-) ]

Wasn't really planning on posting another "Suppan as a prom date" subject line, but that's how this one will start.

I think the problem that players have with pain is that they get so used to playing through it, they often don't know when to acknowledge it when it goes too far, into injury.

As for the S&M reference, if you happened to have a girlfriend that is into that sort of thing, it might seem pretty interesting at first. A few playful slaps, maybe silk scarves around the wrists - nothing to be worried about. Then she starts getting a little rough; the pain's a little bit more than you really want to put up with, but she's into it, so you play along.

Finally one day, you're locked in a trunk, wearing a gimp suit, wondering what the hell happened. OK, too far. Maybe it's more like you're wearing long sleeve shirts at work to cover up the scars. Or wondering if you'll need to borrow her makeup for the bruises. (And before anyone asks, I don't know any more than what you can figure out watching "Exit To Eden" with Dana Delany, or maybe an episode of Real Sex on HBO.)

I know - a very weird analogy to explain a baseball situation. But I used it to point out that it is a thin line between a level of pain that is expected and a level of pain that has gone too far.

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Sep 27, 2006 4:10 PM EDT reply actions

So what was Mulder's safe word?

n/t

by sdrone on Sep 27, 2006 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

macaroni

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 27, 2006 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Fidelio?

by BozCardsFanSF on Sep 27, 2006 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Morgan

It turned into a superstition when Joe mentioned that Edmonds will never be as good as Willie mays, offensivly or defensivly, no matter what and how many awards he wins. That night, I hit mute and didn't listen to him anymore and JEd hit two bombs and made a decent catch at the wall. Morgan gets "hung up" on certain colored players and it drives me nuts. Color has nothing to do with how great a ball player you all.

and I quote "Bonds is the greatest player of all time because (Babe) Ruth never had to go threw all of the discrimination and hard times as Bonds did with being black." Are you kidding me? Joe Morgan is just a complete idiot

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Sep 27, 2006 4:11 PM EDT reply actions

wow

colored players .... wow

by dontEATnachos on Sep 27, 2006 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Dude

is your real name Michael Scott? Or perhaps Agent Michael Scarn...?

The Cardinal Curmudgeon

by lawman3842 on Sep 27, 2006 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Dude

Willie Mays hit 660 HR and had a career 156 OPS+

Edmonds won't approach either of those numbers, or most of the rest of Willie Mays' career stats. I love Jimmy, I think Jimmy will probably merit a HOF berth when all is said and done, but he is not Mays, thanks to Griffey, Jr., he's probably not the best CF of his generation.

Race has nothing to do with it. Joe Morgan is wrong on many things, but this insn't one of them.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the real rub here

is that Joe Morgan took it upon himself to squash any thought that Willie Mays might be beaten by a player of this generation.

Because, as we all know, everybody that played back when Joe did was much better than they are now. They all played the game better. They all were much more knowledgeable about the game and its history. All of them only ate free-range chicken and drank skim milk. The only performance-enhancing drug that anyone took was Flinstones Chewable Vitamins. And they never, ever read any type of book, because there is no way anybody outside of baseball could tell them anything important.

Yes, Joe, I humbly acknowledge that you were one of the three greatest second basemen of all time. That you were one of the best players of the 70's. That the Big Red Machine was one of the greatest collections of talent put together on a baseball field. That at least 38 of your teammates deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

But I think Willie Mays is secure enough in the knowledge that he is maybe the greatest center fielder ever, no worse than 3rd or 4th. And in no danger of being threatened by an cocky upstart from California. I think he can defend himself just fine, Joe. And if Jimmy or any other player aspires to be as good as Willie, don't try to crush his dreams, Joe; it's a noble goal.

Sorry, Valatan, this was not meant as a rub against you at all. I think you do an excellent job subbing in for Larry and your capitalization is a refreshing improvement over current management. ;-) And I respect your thoughts and ideas, so don't take offense to the above comments.

For anyone that might take offense to my dig about older players, I completely respect the game as it was back then and mean no slight to the players as a group. But to maintain naivity about the game back then or to believe that they are beyond reproach is ludicrous.

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Sep 27, 2006 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks for the kind words

and no offense taken--I am no Joe Morgan fan myself, and agree with most of what you said above--I just didn't see the racial connexion in saying that Mays was better than Edmonds. I don't necessarily see the racism here, either, because Morgan doesn't seem to adulate Ken Griffey, Jr. the way he does Bonds, despite Griffey being a better player (assuming that Griffey is steroids-free) and (apparently) person than Bonds.

I think this is just Joe being Joe and obsessively clinging to some stupid opinion.

by Valatan on Sep 27, 2006 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow...

The Batavia Muckdogs...

Get used to it...

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 4:20 PM EDT reply actions

sounds like

they're trying to outdo the Toledo Mudhens

The Cardinal Curmudgeon

by lawman3842 on Sep 27, 2006 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions

I still love

the Montgomery Biscuits...

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Speaking of the minors...

is Wil Pujols finished in professional baseball? After posting a .369 ops with 31ks in 63 abs in '05, he followed up with a .484 and 37ks in 109 abs, both years in rookie ball.

Anyone know how many years 6th(?) round picks typically get to prove themselves?

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

You can eat a biscuit

at a Montgomery Biscuits game. Too bad they are the AA affiliate of the D-Rays...

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 27, 2006 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions

www.muckdogs.com

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

The Biscuit

How can you not love that? :-)

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions

That's pretty good...

I don't know how to post pictures, but the Muckdog is literally a dog crashing through a fence with mud dripping out of its mouth. I guess that sells tickets in western NY.

by guayzimi on Sep 27, 2006 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Here ya go

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 27, 2006 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions

clear things up

I was not saying that Jimmy is better then Mays. I think that Willie is the better ball player. But defense. Sorry that goes to Jim. What I was saying is this: Morgan has his few people on a podium and they can never fall off. Come on, Bonds did roids. Believe it. Morgan always talks up the black players more just because. The comment about Bonds being the best ever is what got me the most. Bonds had a father and godfather who were baseball stars. Come on, get over it man. Sorry if I stepped on some toes. I just wanted to clear up why I don't like Morgan. Not black players.

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Sep 27, 2006 4:40 PM EDT reply actions

Edmonds...

May be great, but isn't Willie Mays considered to be like the greatest defensive CF of all time?

by matt reeder on Sep 27, 2006 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Ya know...

I'm sure this has been mentioned during the time when I've been away a bit more, but how big are the Mark Mulder Project starts now? Leave Reyes in the rotation and win one of the two, this is a lot less frightening scenario. Win both, the division is over right now.

In a year of complete stupidity so many places, that one might prove to be the most painful in hindsight -- except that it's not all hindsight, since most of us were all over it before it even happened.

by whopperman on Sep 27, 2006 4:47 PM EDT reply actions

Add to that...

the three late season blown saves by Izzy (8/9, 8/22, 9/6). Running him out there when he was clearly (to them) debilitated, and unable to spot his cutter or even throw his curveball. Damaged, with a one pitch arsenal. Smart.

If they could've saved just one of those three.....

youneverknow

by meat on Sep 27, 2006 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions

tony

While it's true tlr would've been criticized no matter what he did last night, his primary sin is - as always - arrogance. To put it another way, tony is the type of manager who simply knows he's right and that's that. You always get the feeling with tony that he will do as he pleases regardless of the situation, regardless of the logic. That is sometimes a good thing: over the course of a long season a manager with good baseball knowledge and instincts will very likely do better if he sticks to his guns. But tony, well, he does shit just to show everyone how damn smart he is. This is the kind of stubbornness that's deadly in short series' and I think it partially explains why tony always loses in the post-season. Larry, how about finding some evidence to support (or disprove) my theory - I'm much too lazy. By the way zubin, if you want odds, you can get them (on either team) at tradesports.com

by lerwin1 on Sep 27, 2006 5:30 PM EDT reply actions