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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

act I, scene I

[STAGE bare; hushed VOICES heard from behind curtain]

VOICE 1: I can't say it.
VOICE 2: You have to.
V1: I can't.
V2: Why not?
V1: I'm afraid it'll -- you know.
V2: Conjure forth?
V1: Yeah.
V2: Uh huh. Since when have you believed in witchcraft?
V1: I'm not sure . . . . since the Denkinger call, I think.
V2: Oh, for -- buck up, man. Come on. Don't censor yourself.
V1: I just don't think I should. It could really poison the atmosphere.
V2: The atmosphere is big. The atmosphere will dilute the poison.
V1: [thinks] . . . .  I suppose that could happen.
V2: Have some faith.
V1: Well  . . . . . . . alright. I guess.

BLOGGER steps through curtain, STAGE RIGHT; single spot.

BLOGGER: [clears throat] So -- been a while since they had one o' them there 8-game losing streaks, eh?

END ACT I

ha ha ha; i kid. . . . . mostly, i kid. i mean, they could lose 8 in a row, right? with this pitching staff, anything's possible. the team is not hitting, the bullpen's in flux, they don't play well on the road . . . . but no, i don't think they're going to choke a 7-game advantage away. even after all the late leads they've blown this year, i don't think they're going to blow this one.

something tells me, though, that the way st louis lost last night -- ie, on a big blow in the other team's last at-bat -- is the way they'll ultimately get knocked out of the playoffs. that has been a running theme since the first weekend of the 2006 season; they just haven't put games away. i hope i'm wrong of course, but any time a late-inning threat should arise in a playoff game we, as fans, are going to anticipate failure. we'll be trembling; we'll know it's coming. there has to be a sense in which the players will share that sense of impending defeat. they'll fight against it; maybe they'll overcome it and hang on to win the close ones. but it's just one more obstacle confronting the 06 redbirds.

as the 8th inning unfolded last night, numerous commenters in the game thread were calling for the IBB to berkman, so they have every right to question the decision to pitch to him -- they called it in advance and are not just 2d-guessing. in my mind, it was a very tough call. obvious argument for pitching around him -- he's the astros' best hitter by a longshot, particularly in that building, so why give him a chance to beat you? berkman's their version of pujols -- and we'd question the sanity / competence of any manager who pitched to pujols in that situation. very persuasive argument. on the other side, there's the ageless baseball rule that you never, ever deliberately put the winning run on base; make them earn every baserunner. the argument's summed up well by joker24 in this exchange from the postgame thread: berkman needed a homer to beat st louis, whereas luke scott -- who would have batted with two men on base after an IBB to berkman -- would merely have needed an extra-base hit. scott gets an extra-base hit about twice as often as berkman hits a homer, so pitching to berkman with one fewer man on base was the safer play. for that matter, the odds of scott and the next hitter both getting singles also were vastly higher than the odds that berkman would jack one in that situation. a walk there would have opened the door to all sorts of trouble. as joker24 points out, all the win-probability evidence strongly supports the decision la russa made: pitch to him.

the decision was surprisingly, and pleasingly, out of character for tony; he usually ducks confrontations like that one, and it always irks me when he does. i don't want my ace pitcher backing down from anybody; i don't want the manager managing out of fear; and i don't want decisions to be governed by the assumption that my team's best players aren't good enough to beat the other team's best players. well, let me qualify that: if my "best" is greg mathews, then maybe discretion is in order; but not when my best is chris carpenter. la russa challenged berkman, but more important he challenged his own player to rise to a big occasion. i think that's an essential part of how you win championships. carpenter may very well face just such an at-bat in the playoffs, ie the other team's stud hitter in the box with men on base in a tight late-inning spot. and it might be a situation where the IBB is not an option; might be you have no choice but to pitch to the guy. i don't want carpenter looking for a safety net in that situation; i want him to know how it feels to step onto the tightrope unsecured -- and feel steady in himself. he made some good pitches to berkman, but the one false step cost him a lot -- the game, and maybe the cy young award. hopefully he learns from the mistake and pitches the next guy a little tougher, a little more self-assuredly.

as for the cy young: webb also took a loss but pitched a better game than carp, yielding 3 runs in 7 innings. john brittain of the hardball times thinks webb should get the award -- and that was before last night's results. he doesn't have a vote, though . . . .

changing gears: the mets are facing the same playoff-rotation question that vexes the cardinals, pitting an "established" veteran pitcher with a high win total but no other redeeming statistics -- steve trachsel -- vs a rookie pitcher who is demonstrably better but "unproven" and hence "riskier" -- john maine. trachsel (15-7, 4.96) is cast in the jason marquis role; he's actually better than  marquis, but just go with it. and maine (5-5, 3.42) is the mets' answer to anthony reyes (5-7, 4.92); he, too, is better than his stl counterpart. anyway, the Baseball Crank gives a very cogent take on the situation; different team, different fans, same basic sentiments. be interesting to see if randolph and la russa come down on the same side. . . . .

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Carp
I know Carp is the best we got and I loved to see him throw a complete game. But why was he pitching to Berkman? To me it seems like why not walk him and get to the next guy? He already roped one off Carp a couple of innings ago. I also thought, well if Carp is coming up second the next inning, go ahead and take him out and bring in Flores who was already warming up. I was happier leaving in Carp until Berkman swung the bat. Oh well: again hindsight is 20-20. go CARDS!!!!
Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Sep 22, 2006 9:43 AM EDT reply actions  

Or...
why not bring in Flores to face Berkman?  Carp didn't have his best stuff, Berkman already had a HR and a 2B off him, he was getting up there in pitch count, Berkman is much less likely to hit a HR right -handed (historically, that is)....
Normally, in that situation, Tony turns Berkman around and makes him face a lefty.  Last night, because is WAS Carp, he left him in.  Too bad.

I'm not saying, of course, that Flores would have gotten Berkman out.  My point is that, usually, Tony makes the move in that situation.  (I would have also liked to have seen a fresh Wainwright come in for a four out save attempt.  Kids got to face that type situation sometime, better now with a 7.5 game lead than in the playoffs..)

by ArkansasTravs on Sep 22, 2006 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cy Young
Looks like a toss up at this point to me, even with your post yesterday. How many of these 'non-votes' for Webb would go for Carp if, oh, their win totals were switched?

Ah, yeah, checked the Hardball Times - he was talking through the eyes of the likely voters (not himself).

by SirVLCIV on Sep 22, 2006 9:47 AM EDT reply actions  

I'd say Web has an edge
just on the basis that Carp won it last year.  It seems to me that voters are somewhat hesitant to give an award to the same guy two years in a row if there are very competitive alternatives.

by Zubin on Sep 22, 2006 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Always puzzling
I'm always amazed that we even have these discussions about putting the winning run on base. Statistics and over 100 years of baseball history make are clear--it's just plain dumb to put the winning run on base. No team likes having to pitch to a stud hitter but that's the way it goes in sports. You just can't avoid difficult, unnerving situations. It's much better to lose because your players are worse than your opponent's--it sucks to lose because you lost your nerve.

by lerwin1 on Sep 22, 2006 9:54 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree, however
Berkman is now batting .400 with 3HR, 6RBI, and 14 total bases vs Carpenter at Minute Maid Park---and that is just this year. If you go back to last year and the playoffs, you can toss in 2 more HR and 4 more RBI (add another HR from Busch as well), it seems as though Berkman has his number.

by cmat on Sep 22, 2006 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tony's comments
"It would have been a good time to make a trip just to review what the options were instead of leaving it there for the pitcher and catcher," La Russa said. "I think that's a mistake on my part."

Thats the best you can do at taking responsibility for bone headed decisions tony? you "think" it was a mistake. This guy is a joke. What an insult to cardinals baseball.

by jojo5492 on Sep 22, 2006 9:55 AM EDT reply actions  

I actually
think he's a pretty good manager and in no way find him being with the Cardinals insulting. Is he infallible? Of course not, but I can't think of anyone else who would be doing a better job with the team he has.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2006 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tony has said many times
over the years that he does not like to tell his pitchers that they can't handle someone.   He's said this every time someone talked to him about Bonds.

This is Carp.  This isn't Marquis.  If Carp pitches to him and loses the game, I can live with that.  

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2006 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
Carpenter was our best chance in that situation. He obviously didn't have his best stuff last night - he struggled the whole game, not just in that one pitch to Berkman.

That Carpenter with less than his best stuff was a better option against a man who "has his number" than the LOOGY in the BP is a testament to the utter disaster that is the left-handed side of our bullpen more than evidence of a manegerial lapse.

If we had a decent lefty, it would have been a much easier decision to pull Carp right there and turn Berkman around - he's clearly more dangerous from the left side. I'm not sure it's really an issue of walking Berkman vs. pitching to him - it's a matchup question.

As sdrone said, this is Carpenter out there. If he pitches to Berkman and loses, I can live with that.

by lawman3842 on Sep 22, 2006 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think if you
look at all the factors it was a terrible decision by la russa.

first off, you all are saying carp was the best option.  that's debateable.  he was having an off night, no question about it, and chris carpenter on an off night is not the cardinals best pitcher, especially after he's already pitched 7-8 innings.  

second, and more importantly, this game was a meaningless game.  the cards have 1st place locked up.  there's no reason to send a struggling carpenter out after he's already pitched 100 pitches.  pitchers get hurt when they're tired.

so basically, la russa's decision was to send out a tired carp, riskign injury, on his off night when there were other options in the bullpen who were clearly as good, if not better.  in a meaningless game.  

by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 22, 2006 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point is
it's a sad state of affairs with the left side of our BP when neither of the lefties really is a better option in that situation.

Wainwright or Hancock might have been better options - I remember AW striking Berkman out with that wicked curve earlier this year - but the option Tony had available, Randy Flores, probably had less of a chance out there than Carpenter.

by lawman3842 on Sep 22, 2006 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

IIRC
Carp started that inning with less than 90 pitches, he averages 101/gm so that really wasn't a big issue.  He had just struck out Mike Lamb with some good pitches so I think he still had his stuff.  The pitch was supposed the be in, but it was groved and Berkman did what major league hitter do, he crushed it.

by Just Rope Ball on Sep 22, 2006 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

meaningless game
yes, a meaningless game --- excellent opportunity to provide a test for your best pitcher, the guy who has to be "on" for your team to have any hope. no real harm done pgeorge, so why are you so worked up about it?

when tony pulls levers and intercedes too forcefully, he gets bashed. last night he stood aside and just let the players play.

it was a defensible decision that didn't work out. it might just as easily have backfired if he'd walked berkman.

sometimes there's no "right" or "wrong" decision, only a close call between two unpalatable options. you pick the one you can live with and let it play out. i think this was one of those times.

by lboros on Sep 22, 2006 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats
what it often comes down to; players play the game, win and/or lose.

Last night, the Astros best player beat the Cards best player.

Nothing to do but tip your cap and move on.

Go get 'em tonight.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2006 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

losing that game
doesn't bother me all that much.  its the fact that larussa tends to push, or allow, carpenter to pitch longer into games then he needs to at this point.  the chance of carpenter losing the game doesn't bother me, its the chance of him getting hurt.  

larussa always seems to leave carpenter in much longer than he would other pitchers.  ie. if jeff suppan was on the mound going into the 8th last night instead of carp, I think we would have seen a reliever instead of supps.  Im not trying to equate suppan and carp, Im just saying that when carp doesn't have his best stuff, hes not always the best option. though if this were a post season game and larussa left carp in, no complaints.  

as for you saying that it was a good test for the pitcher, that logic would be fine for reyes.  but carp's an established veteran with post season experience, he doesn't need to be tested at this point.

by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 22, 2006 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

NOT a meaningless game!!!
Two huge advantages for the Cardinals in the postseason would be to (1) have home-field advantage, at least in the first round, and (2) to play the NL West Division winner so that our series is the one that has the extra off day.

For both of these to happen the Cardinals MUST finish with a better record than the West winner, and Philly must not win the Wild Card. The latter is out of the Cardinals' hands, but the team can certainly influence the former...

by salvomania on Sep 22, 2006 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't know about the rest of you
and I know that this is the least sabermetrically-correct way to look at the game, but doesn't this season "feel" different from other playoff years?  Maybe it's because in other years it always felt that there were certain memorable, iconic, momentum-building late inning wins in August and September; this years, it seems like we have had more memorable, iconic, momentum-sapping late inning losses.  Maybe it's because other Cards teams (especially TLR teams) have surged into the playoffs, while this team is backing in.

Dunno; maybe it's just me.

by tdawg on Sep 22, 2006 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

we've had our moments this year...
... two Bennett walk-offs including a granny, several Pujols walk-offs, several come-backs against Lidge, two Pujols 3-HR games, etc.

the teams just isn't as good this year, so the highs are sometimes drowned by the lows.

by kindred on Sep 22, 2006 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't know if the game thread mentioned this..
But I was so angry at Yadi---right before the fateful pitch to Berkman---for calling the last-second time out just as Carp was going into his wind-up to throw a 3-2 pitch in a tense situation.

Yadi immediatley ran out to the mound, tapping his chest ("It was me who called it") and Carp seemed ticked off.

So Carp has to do it all over again, gather himself up, face into the hitter and go into that wind-up to propel the possibly game-saving or game-losing pitch.

by salvomania on Sep 22, 2006 10:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed...
I'm quickly becoming disenchanted with young Yadier. I'd like to see us add his brother to the team this offseason, and maybe he could teach Yadi a thing or two about hitting and game calling.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Considering all the holes...
the Cardinals have, why would you spend millions on an old, expensive, weak-armed version of Yadi? The game calling is in large part a function of who's in the dugout and on the mound, and anyway there's a good possibility it will improve over time.

The hitting is irrelevent. Catchers suck at hitting, and if they don't they soon become first baseman. Bengie posted ops of .649, .739, .660, and .596 his first four seasons, only reaching the 780's the last two years. Yadi so far has posted a .684, .654 and a .607.

The kid comes cheap until 2010 with a decent chance of all around improvement. Bengie is the encarnacion of catchers...

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
Earlier in the year, I was ripped on this site for daring to question Yadi's game calling...you're a brave soul!

by Big Rev on Sep 22, 2006 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

mano y mano...
I'm with sdrone above....this was Carp...he's the best we have whether it's the 1st inning or the 8th inning...he had been tagged by Berkman earlier, and this was his chance to shut him down and move into the 9th AND the next three games with the upper hand .. sure now it seems like a no-brainer to have walked him, or bring in Flores...but I'll take my chances with Carp anytime, anyday....Berkman won the battle fair and square and all you can do is tip your cap to the guy and move ON.  I said it yesterday and I'll say it again today.  We are still in a great position, that was only the first game of this four game series and we are going to come back out tonight and beat the liv'in crap out of them.  We win with our best...or we lose with our best.. Personally?...I would have been dying if I saw him Walk Berkman in that situation. Walking the winning run on base in the 8th?...with our best pitcher on the mound?...no way...Carp missed the spot and he got the homer. We'll get 'em tonight.

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 10:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Marquis vs. Reyes in game scores
In response to the Baseball Crank piece, I present Reyes and Marquis' game scores in decending order:

Reyes      82
Marquis    76
Reyes      73
Marquis    73
Marquis    69
Marquis    67
Reyes      66
Marquis    64
Marquis    64
Reyes      61
Marquis    61
Marquis    60
Marquis    60
Reyes      58
Marquis    58
Reyes      57
Marquis    54
Marquis    53
Marquis    52
Marquis    52
Marquis    51
Marquis    51
Reyes      50
Reyes      49
Reyes      48
Marquis    47
Reyes      43
Reyes      42
Marquis    38
Reyes      37
Marquis    36
Marquis    36
Marquis    32
Marquis    32
Marquis    31
Marquis    31
Reyes      30
Marquis    27
Marquis    27
Reyes      26
Marquis    25
Marquis    24
Marquis    22
Reyes      16
Marquis    -7
Marquis    -11

I'm surprised to not find Reyes a clear winner there.  I guess Marquis has pitched some very good games this year as well.  Those two negative numbers stand out a bit, but both were after blowout losses when the pen needed some rest, and there would surely be a quicker hook in the post-season.

by john vb on Sep 22, 2006 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

you're right
Reyes is not a clear winner.  Reyes's avg. is 49.2, Marquis 43.7 but that is skewed by the 2 horrible games.  The median seems to be a much more accurate indicator -- Reyes's is 49, Marquis' is 51.  Still, considering Reyes is more of a power pitcher and is less known by the league, I'd give him the edge in a playoff game.  Besides, wouldn't it be easier to watch Reyes get bombed in the playoffs than Marquis?  At least we could chalk up Reyes's drubbing to youth, inexperience, whatever.  With Marquis, it would be because he's Marquis.

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2006 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if
we are all going to be frustrated again this offseason..with SP needs, and izzy "no timetable" they almost have to do something with the pen. They either need to do something to bring in another guy who can close or who can do MR and let Looper(no please)close...at any rate it adds something else to go getIMO

by punchinjudy on Sep 22, 2006 11:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Wainwright
They may also feel that Wainwright could be a viable option at closer if Izzy isn't ready.  Between Izzy, Looper (gasp) and AW, they may feel like they have enough options not to need to spend big bucks on a closer.

by punditmoi on Sep 22, 2006 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hell
if he ever ets a save opp we can see what the kid can really do.

But, ya... I'm not looking forward to this offseason one bit...

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2006 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm looking forward to it...
but i'm keeping my expectations low. I'm not expecting a schmidt or zito, soriano or gary matthews jr, anything like that. I'm just hoping for some solid moves to help the ballclub.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah,
I try to be realistic, but then I think of having a Soriano, V-Wells, or C-Lee in the lineup and Zito or Schmidt in the rotation and I start getting greedy.

Like most everything else in life, though; for us there's nothing more we can do than shrug our shoulders and say "we'll see"

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2006 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

ets = gets
It's a fun lil' lingustic game I play on Fridays.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2006 12:05 PM EDT reply actions  

lb,
i'm glad that i'm not the only one at least considering the highly improbable, but potential complete collapse that would bring this painful season to an even more painful and premature conclusion.  

your stage directions echoes the internal dialogue i carried on with myself this morning.

no matter how we dissect the berkman ab in the 8th, the bottom line is that, in a game in which we were gifted a number of runs and had our ace on the mound with an opportunity to win, it didn't happen.  

by sdesserman on Sep 22, 2006 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

i second that (or third that)
I don't want to consider this possiblity, but it keeps creeping into my mind.  They haven't won consecutive road games since they played in Colorado in July.

by tdawg on Sep 22, 2006 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

on pitching to berkman
I was one who called for the IBB beforehand and i still think it would've been the right call.  But your stuff on our best guy going vs. theirs is true.  That's why I often prefer the other team's ace vs. Pujols -- I know he'll pitch to him.  I still like Carp, or Flores, or Wainwright (who wasn't warming up I don't think) much better than Berkman in that situation though, esp. since Carp was nowhere near his best last night.  Nevertheless, there's a lot to be said for pitching to him.

that's where carp's to blame.  For god's sakes, if you do pitch to him, your #1 responsibility is to not leave a pitch there!  Walk him if you have to, hit him if you have to, throw it a foot over his head and see if he'll swing.  My preference was in the dirt.  Of course, Carp didn't mean to throw the pitch there.  That's not the point.  If he was going to make a mistake, it had to be away from the zone rather than in the middle of the zone.  A better mistake would've been to miss yadi completely and throw it to the backstop!

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2006 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Carp
I agree with some points here.  Our ace, our stud, our number one, our etc, shouldn't be backing down from anybody...in most cases.  This situation is different though.  Let's see, best hitter on the team who has already burned you twice tonight or pretty good rookie that you've retired everytime tonight.  All I kept thinking after the game was that last night was the stupidest loss of the season.  Berkman comes up, ok no IBB right away, 2-0, I'm thinking alright now he'll IBB him...nope.  And then he got it to 3-2 and I thought, well, it's Carp, he can probably strike him out.  I let that glimmer of hope in just a bit too soon because as it came in the ball went flying out.  It just seems like an avoidable loss.
Now the story of a wealthy family who lost everything, and the one son who had no choice but to keep them all together...it's Arrested Development.

by Bowen on Sep 22, 2006 1:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Idle Chatter - Peralta
The Cardinals are obviously a scrap heap special team (and who isn't really).  With that in mind, I was reading a Buster Olney article today on Eric Wedge's open criticism of Jhonny Peralta.

Peralta is a 24 year old shortstop (at the start of next season).  He had a down year this year, but was better than just about any national league shortstop last year and has the ability to be a "cornerstone" type shortstop.  

Baseball reference lists his top comp (for his age) as Ernie Banks and the list includes: Shawon Dunston (#2) and Yogi Berra (#7).  If Peralta is trade bait (i.e. like B. Phillips).  I would be ecstatic to pull him off the scrap heap.  Anyone else intrigued?

-K

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Eckstein...
isn't going anywhere (unfortunately). TLR loves him, the city loves him, management loves him. Pheralta strikes out a ton, and is a defensive liability at short. He does have a lot of potential though.
Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

all true....but?
he only has one year left on his contract right?....

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep...
and i'm hoping we dont re-sign him. Nothing against Eck, I love the way the guy plays baseball. Hustle and hard work can only get you so far with limited talent. I wouldn't mind picking up Peralta to replace him I guess. We'd need to find a new lead off hitter though. Peralta strikes out too much and isn't fast enough to lead off.
Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with you...
I love Eck and what he has done for us since coming to STL...but I would really love to find a younger guy with better range and arm.... I was tauting Lugo most of the year...but I read he is looking for about 12 mill a year..and there is NO WAY he is worth that much...

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

UTIL
He was UTIL last year and worst case is a second baseman (and I am sure knowing Tony if Pheralta was wearing birds on the bat he would learn third and OF as well).  I like Eckstein, but am definitely looking for an upgrade (and possible move of Eck to 2nd) is a weak market.

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry
Pheralta was UTIL in 03 and 04, not 05

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

they may criticize him but
they also signed him to a deal through 2011 this year.

don't think he's getting moved.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Sep 22, 2006 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Girardi is almost a Cub..
ESPN is reporting that there is " ZERO " chance he is back managing the Fish next season..... The guy might win Manager of the Year ..and will be with a different club next year...amazing

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

How bout
signing FA SS Michael Young, and moving Eck to second? Another scrappy white guy for the city to slobber over!!

by salvomania on Sep 22, 2006 1:54 PM EDT reply actions  

From your keyboard...
to GOD'S ears on that man.....I'd KILL for that guy

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Michael Young...
isn't happy in TX from what I hear. Their manager or gm (can't remember which), said something about him not being a very vocal leader, and it made him (and other guys on the team) mad. I wonder what his contract status is like? Plus him and V.Wells are good friends, we should get both :P
Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

My Problem
Micheal Young isn't a scrap heap type that would require minimal investment.  I would love to pick him up, but don't know if we have the pieces Texas would be looking for (i.e. Pitchers Pitchers Pitchers)

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Qualification
I'll qualify that statement by saying that I would be open to trading Reyes or Wainright late in the offseason if signed an impact free agent.  I'm sure we would have to give up some other second tier prospect as well, but I am definitely a Micheal Young fan...

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Michael Young= Big contract
Not gonna happen. Other than Rolen and Pujols, the team will not spend the big bucks on an infielder, no matter who it is; it's not in their nature. What they will do is overpay for journeyman pitchers and average OFs.

by cardsrul on Sep 22, 2006 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Michael Young
Also happens to be historically bad defensively.

I'll also pass on those home/road splits.

A diamond is just a lump of coal that performed well under pressure

by joker24 on Sep 22, 2006 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

at 6-1 200lbs...
Young isn't exactly scrappy. According to the Rangers media guide, however, he is white. If I remember correctly we had a bunch of black guys during the 80's and everyone loved them... He'll be a fa after next year, then the feeding frenzy will start. Dunno if you want to give up 5 years of WW/Reyes for 1 of Mr. Scrappy.

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

well...
 I think you would have to sign him to an extention as part of the deal if you were going to give up those guys...for sure.

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don't do...
sign and trades in MLB... More like trade and pray... Look at the Nationals and Soriano

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not true exactly
Exhibit A - Randy Johnson to the Yankees with an extension immediately sign.  These arrangements might not have to be made contractually, but they are done.

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Johnson
had a no trade and, b/c of his contract, was prohibitively expensive.  He wouldn't agree to the deal w/o the extension.  It was one he wanted.  Not the same w/ Michael Young.  1 year of young is not worth 4 years of Reyes or  5 of Wainwright.

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2006 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

My bad..
thought he was a FA this year....

by salvomania on Sep 22, 2006 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

ummm i think young is signed through 07
w/ an option for 08

I'm all for stealing players but I don't know how the commish would take to that.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Sep 22, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

okay...
then you don't do the deal...No one is going to give up that much talent without being able to sign the player to a long term contract to off set the investment.

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 2:30 PM EDT reply actions  

You wouldn't think so...
but baseball executives are often pretty short sighted. After all we got Wainwright for Drew, who had one year to go until fa, just like Young, and he had Boras as an agent which guaranteed that he would test the market.

Of course the Braves had a streak to maintain.

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you know...
Boras is Anthony Reyes's agent? I didn't until yesterday.
Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another reason...
to pitch him till his arm falls off!

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also
Hawksworth, McCormick and Greene are a Boras guys as well to cover our minor leagues.
A diamond is just a lump of coal that performed well under pressure

by joker24 on Sep 22, 2006 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

And forgot
2006 draftees Gary Daley and Mark Hamilton Boras as well.
A diamond is just a lump of coal that performed well under pressure

by joker24 on Sep 22, 2006 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

To beat a dead horse
Examples
  1.  Mulder for Haren, Calero, Barton
  2.  Rolen Trade
  3.  McGwire Trade
  4.  Edmonds Trade
  5.  A.J. Pyrzinski Trade
It all comes down to how much confidence you have of signing the FA in their walk year...

by Lawless on Sep 22, 2006 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

so...let me ask you...
Would you say that St.Louis is one of the more desirable organizations for players?  In other words would you put them in the upper tier of places a player would in all probability want to sign if they were a FA?

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think so...
not because of the fans, but because it is a good organization for the most part with very rich baseball history. We obviously aren't as desirable as the Yankees, but I would put St. Louis in the top 5 of places a player would want to play.

However, it's all about the money nowadays, stuff like that really doesn't matter.

Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree...
to a degree....I think you are right about the money of course being the main issue of a contract...but I think when a player is married with kids it still has a impact on where might choose to play over a certain period of his life and his families best interests play in the decision. Especially on older more established guys.

by Timbo02 on Sep 22, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

True....
In that case, St. Louis would be very desirable. Won't find a much better place to raise a family.
Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Rich history" of a team
means almost nothing to players; it's all about the money. That's why I laugh to myself when the names of big-time FA come up as possibilities for the Cardinals. Not counting the guys who were already on the team, who was the last big name they signed? Bob Tewksbury?

by cardsrul on Sep 22, 2006 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

keeping Edmonds and Rolen...
... after the trades for them was huge, especially since they both had reputations of being very selfish players before that.

they also signed Izzy outright and extended McGwire. hell, i think signing Tino was probably a "bigger" move at the time it was made.

i see your point, but this team simply can't afford to make more than one or two "blockbuster" signings in any given period of time. the fact that we've got Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Izzy, and Carp all at the same time is the aberration, not the rule. and i'm enjoying it.

by kindred on Sep 22, 2006 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depending on Liriano's health...
...the AJ deal may very well be the worst deal since that Boston pitcher was traded to the Yankees almost 90 years ago.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2006 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

*sold* to the yankees...
... and at the time that deal was made, the BoSox thought they were getting a steal for Ruth. obviously, history proven otherwise, but Ruth was a cantankerous player who was refusing to play for Boston, even after he'd been given a raise, and the BoSox got more money for him than any team had ever gotten for any player.

by kindred on Sep 22, 2006 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody know...
what the heck happened to Daric Barton down in the Arizona Fall League?

He was injured over the summer, the A's sent him AZ once he got better, he played in one game going 1 for 5, then nothing since...

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Ah...
looks like he yanked a hamstring and is out for the fall. May play winter ball to make up for lost time... In 2007, with Swisher and Johnson ahead of him, Barton will probably head to double-A...

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

AZL not Arizona Fall league
Was sent to rookie-ball not the fall league, but I don't know what happened to him.  He's not in the AFL this year.

It at least looks at this point though that he's never going to develop the power to make him a valuable 1B but who knows.

A diamond is just a lump of coal that performed well under pressure

by joker24 on Sep 22, 2006 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

oops...
thought it was fall league... In any case he doesn't look like he'll stampede the bigs a la Pujols, but at 21 he has a few years to figure things out before he falls behind the curve...

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...
the idea was to move Dan Johnson up to the bigs, but he has gone backwards... I guess they're keeping that slot at triple A open for him in case he needs another year. Barton can't play catcher, so if he wants at bats he has to get them at double A.

Not sure why he can't be a right fielder... No arm maybe...

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you thought last night was bad...
Berkman is hitting .520 (13-for-25) with three doubles, a homer and nine RBIs against Marquis.

Ouch!

Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Over under for Berkman's total bases is...
5. On 9/13 I went with 5 and he was right on it until doubling in the 8th... ended with 7...

Today he will not double in the 8th.

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Over.
I think he'll get 7 bases.
Bengie Molina for 2007 Cardinals Catcher!

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 22, 2006 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not touching this one
last time I took the under and, well, you all saw what happened

by lawman3842 on Sep 22, 2006 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Berkman kills the birds
and in the box too, but last night I couldnt even complain about his HR's they were legit, so Id walk him...course then theyd walk Pujols...

none has mentioned it that I saw, but ESPN did(wow)they didnt go to lidge..I wonder if they will at all this series. If by some straneg turn of events both teams make it to playoffs and play eachother that would be funny, cause at some point hed have to use him when the other arms were tired..maybe they can move marquis and and some polish sausage(since they didnt have that and craute but one stand in TX)too them for lidge

by punchinjudy on Sep 22, 2006 4:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Maruis tonite
I hate that tonite when we are on national tv, we'll get to trot Mr. Marquis to the hill for an inning or two.
That's a winner

by elhombrestlcards05 on Sep 22, 2006 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll be honest
I'm somewhat scared to watch.  

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2006 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Marquis Scratched
Narveson will be making a start tonight. Marquis scratched due to back spasms.

Wild guess: 5IP 4H 2BB 6K 2ER

by liam on Sep 22, 2006 4:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Awesome...
I think all sides agree that it really isn't anyone's interest for Marquis to pitch again in a Cards uni...

That 47 pitch monstrosity on 9/13 was a fitting cap to his career in STL.

by guayzimi on Sep 22, 2006 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wild . What's Narveson got?
What's his velocity?  

Now I HAVE to watch. heheh

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2006 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Narveson's stuff
From what I've seen, he's got good control with a high-80s fastball and moves it around the zone well. He throws a lousy curveball.

by liam on Sep 22, 2006 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

hahah. So he's got
a slow fastball and a bad breaking pitch.  Woohoo!

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2006 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So Narveson
is the Cards soft-tossing lefty?

by cardsrul on Sep 22, 2006 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Apparently Eck is back too
At least that's what the official team page says ...

by dontEATnachos on Sep 22, 2006 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

back spams back schmasms
Berkman batting 520 against Mrquis...after last night Tony says hey jason...your back hurts right...we need to win and well berkman beat our best pitcher and well you arent that good. I think it'd be best if we rest you yah that seems good...or maybe th epaper didnt say his back started spasming when he sat on Lil mannies Ipod

by punchinjudy on Sep 22, 2006 4:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Marquis scratched........
Well, we all know that Jason's brain works a bit differently, but a few days ago I speculated that he missed his turn because of an undisclosed injury.  Of course.  They have pretty much hid every injury of every pitcher this season UNTIL they ended up on the disabled list.  And the injuries they hid did effect their play. While we have been on here slamming Marquis, I now wonder if he's been pitching hurt this season.  I'm glad to see Narveson get a chance, but I'm also a little baffled....why not Thompson or Hancock?  Or, gasp, Wainwright?  I guess now they almost have no choice but to leave Wainwright out of the mix for now, but I'd really love to see what he could do as a starter.  Plenty of major league hitters can't hit a good curve ball, and we know he has one....

by jillsinmo on Sep 22, 2006 4:59 PM EDT reply actions  

No reason
To start messing with his routine this late in the season.  Wainwright's been relief all season (and pretty good at that).  Why risk messing with his head right before the post season (assuming we don't completely blow it here)?

Give Narvie a shot.  He certainly can't be worse that Marquis was his last start.

by dontEATnachos on Sep 22, 2006 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

izzy effect...
... i think last night's loss - and perhaps one or two of the other late inning collapses in the past week or so - may be attributed to izzy being gone. if izzy is still the closer, than Wainwright pitches in a tie game in the 9th to graffanino, maybe even to jenkins.

whether or not TLR would pull Carp to put in AW is anybody's guess, but he clearly doesn't have confidence in Flores, certainly none in Looper against lefties, and has more in AW. so, perhaps, because AW is being held back for the 9th, the team loses it in the 8th. or because AW is being held back for a potential extra-inning lead in Milwaukee, the team blows it while tied in the 9th. discouraging, heading into Oct.

by kindred on Sep 22, 2006 5:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Injury
Could Jason going down be the door opening to Anthony Reyes? Please say "yes."
Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Sep 22, 2006 5:54 PM EDT reply actions  

if reyes
does well in his next start I think It will be more clear, however if he gets bombed then hell be a pen guy..maybe

by punchinjudy on Sep 22, 2006 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

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