test of willis
like i was saying yesterday: "baseball news often breaks when i'm called away from the laptop, so don't be at all surprised if the cardinals announce a trade this afternoon."
so, next best thing. this ain't no idle rumor; jock is indeed deep into negotiations for dontrelle willis. it's a fact. the current scenario has reyes, rasmus, duncan, and stu pomeranz heading to florida for dontrelle. i'm not saying the cards have made a firm offer of that package; i'm saying that was the state of the negotiations as of late last evening.
back on march 9, idly blogging in the 2d week of spring training, i found myself fantasizing about trade-for-dontrelle scenarios:
. . . i dunno.
from a purely philosophical standpoint, it's my kind of trade: a roll of the dice, high-risk / high-reward. it also fits jocketty's pattern to some extent -- he'd rather make bold moves than tinker. dontrelle really could be an over-the-hump player -- the 2d ace that has been missing from the cards' postseason hand year after year. he could mean the diff'nce between another dispiriting playoff experience and a serious run at a championship; that alone makes the trade attractive.
but willis would come at a steep price. too steep? let's break it down, beginning with the two toss-ins, pomeranz and duncan.
pomeranz is a double a mound prospect in an increasingly crowded field. lambert and parisi are already in the mix; hawksworth and haberer have moved up from high-a this summer; garcia and boggs will be there next season; and narveson is already ahead of pomeranz at triple a and pitching well. stu's peripherals ain't so hot; he looks like a back-of-rotation guy at best. replaceable part; likely won't be missed. as for duncan, his stock is never going to be higher than it is now. if the cardinals had taken care of business and acquired a decent left-fielder, he would have no value at all; by happy accident he has gotten an opportunity and performed at (nay, above) the top of his range for 75 at-bats, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a very limited range of skills -- can't field, can't run, and won't hit for avg over the long haul. he could be an ok part-timer, but nothing more in my opinion. like pomeranz, a replaceable part.
next up: rasmus. extremely talented player, probably a future mlb regular -- but a star? way too soon to say; the odds are against it. he won't reach the majors until 2009 at the earliest, and he very likely won't be an "impact" player at the big-league level until 2010 or beyond -- if ever. his potential value is great, no question about it . . . but is that more valuable than a clean shot at a pennant in 2006? let's frame it like this: how many future pennants is the loss of rasmus likely to cost the cardinals? from that number, subtract the estimated number of pennants the cardinals might lose if they pass on dontrelle this year . . .
to me, the trade pivots on willis v reyes. i say this with the mulder trade in mind; the great regret of that deal is that haren -- not mulder -- turned out to be the strong #2 pitcher the cardinals so badly needed. barton and calero were simply the cost of doing business; it's the loss of haren that stings.
might that happen a 2d time in this trade? two questions: a) who's more likely to pitch the cards to a pennant this season, reyes or willis? and b) which one is more likely to pitch the cards to a pennant in 2007-08? i'll take them in reverse order:
who's more likely to pitch the cards to a pennant in 2007-08 ? willis has been overworked at a tender age and has struggled with inconsistent mechanics; both would seem to make him a prime candidate for DL time in the near future. i will note, however, that during spring training baseball prospectus' will carroll said this about him: "When it comes to workhorse pitchers, Sir Mix-A-Lot appears to have had it right. Willis, Livan Hernandez, and C.C. Sabathia have a lot in common in this department." dontrelle's list of comps at BP includes some guys who had great years in their early 20s but then flamed out -- jim abbott, steve avery, ismael valdez -- and two guys named mark who are both at mid-career and showing signs of decline -- buehrle and mulder. there's also one guy whose career nearly ended at age 31 and only resumed (albeit two years later) because of a very uncertain, now famous famous surgical procedure: tommy john.
at the very least, there is a significant chance that dontrelle will pitch worse in 2007-08 than he did in 2005-06; you might even say that's a probability. whether he slides into middling effectiveness, as mulder has, or into flat-out uselessness, a la ismael valdez, remains to be seen.
what does PECOTA say? willis is not missing his projection by much this season -- he's actually beating his VORP forecast, and is only slightly underperforming vis-vis era, hits/9, and strikeouts/9. (PECOTA anticipated willis' drop in k/9 this year.) for 2007 and 2008, PECOTA has dontrelle posting 3.60ish eras with 1.25ish whips --- nearly identical to chris carpenter's projections for those two seasons, nearly as good as jason schmidt's and roy oswalt's. ie, PECOTA has him right up there with the elite --- and he's so close to his PECOTA in 2006, i wouldn't expect that projection to change much.
but can't the cards expect a 3.60 era and 1.25 whip out of anthony reyes?
PECOTA doesn't think so; it has reyes at ~3.90 the next couple of years. and let's not forget, reyes has arm/mechanics issues of his own; he may be just as great an injury risk as dontrelle. i doubt reyes will ever have a single year as good as dontrelle's 2005 . . . but dontrelle probably won't, either. these guys are about the same age; reyes has a better strikeout rate, a better k/w, and a lower avg allowed, but he is more HR prone. who's going to pitch better from today through 2008? i think it's pretty close, but i'm leaning to reyes. factor in the salary differential -- reyes at a few hundred K, vs willis at $5m to $10m per year, and it's no contest which of the two will be the more valuable.
who's likely to be the better pitcher for the rest of 2006 (including the postseason) -- reyes or willis? dontrelle's overall line -- 6-7, 3.94 era, 1.42 whip -- is hardly ace-like; his strikeouts are down this year, his hits allowed up. i checked his BABIP over at fangraphs and found it right in line with his career avgs; we can't say he's just pitched in poor luck. i did, however, see something not to like at that page: willis' rate of infield popups is way down this year, about half of his established level. that is worrisome, particularly when taken in conjunction with the dwindling strikeout rate; when a power pitcher is on his game, he tends to get a lot of pop flies.
the sagging peripherals make us all think one thing: mulder, whose 2004 line bore all the same caution flags. many people heeded those warning and predicted -- correctly -- that mulder would never be the ace st louis hoped he would be. so might dontrelle simply be mulder II? maybe; but i'm not convinced. the cardinals acquired mulder after the worst half-season of his career -- an era in the 6s. willis by contrast is actually pitching very well; his overall line this year is skewed by one horrible month (may) in which his mechanics apparently got way out of whack. since june 1 he is 5-2 with a 2.93 era and a 1.34 whip; his strikeout rate is up during that period, too. in his last 54 starts (back to the start of 2005), dontrelle has held opponents to 3 runs or fewer 41 times; he consistently gives his team a good chance to win.
that's a record of reliability that reyes simply can't match; not at this stage. he looks like a fine pitcher to me, but he hasn't established an ability to pitch deep into games. might he get hot in october? possibly; after seeing what he did vs the white sox, i wouldn't put anything past him. but there's no guarantee he'll even be in the rotation come october; if mulder comes back and is able to pitch, i'm guessing tony/dunc choose carp mulder marquis + suppan as the four postseason starters.
so . . . . where does that leave us? it leaves us at a pivotal moment for the franchise. if they pull the trigger, the front office is basically saying the future is now -- that, even if the cards hang on to their youngsters, stl's odds of winning a pennant are all downhill over the next five years. you look at the young talent massing up in cincinnati and milwaukee and new york and atlanta and florida, and you can understand why jocketty might draw that conclusion. and you can understand why he might look for an equalizer -- a guy who, best-case, is a 2d hammer atop the rotation.
if st louis takes a pass, they're indicating one of two things: either a) better championship opportunities are forthcoming soon, and reyes rasmus et al will play important roles in creating those opportunties; or b) the cards think they'll have a chance to acquire a pitcher as good as willis (or better) at lower cost/risk.
my own opinion is that the "future is now" assessment has more truth to it; i'm not convinced that any of the four guys they are giving up is going to be a difference-making type of player anytime soon. reyes might be the lone exception, and because of his high injury risk i'm not even sure if he fits the bill. of the five players involved in this trade scenario, willis represents the most scarce commodity -- a left-handed pitcher with an all-star / cy young talent ceiling.
if i'm walt, i try to get florida to throw joe borowski into this deal; if they agree, i pull the trigger immediately.
and if they refuse?
i close my eyes, take a deep breath, and roll the dice. you cannot win if you do not play . . . .
poll and discussion in this diary. see also other perspectives at reverend redbird, 26th man, and luck o the redbirds. bernie miklasz weighed in yesterday.
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Comments
Great post lboros
As for October, is it just my imagination or doesn't Willis have a reputation for slipping down the stretch? I seem to recall his Septmeber lines never really look very good. I'll have to look up his playoff record...
I'm so torn on this
But Reyes has shown flashes of brillance and Rasmus has star potential...
But more importantly I think this team has to win a pennant now...it is a crossroads... I was not nearly this conflicted about the Mulder trade (I loved it) but I'm just torn.
I guess I'd say go for it, but I'm tenative, and I would hope they would pry away Borowski too. But here's my addendum question - LF? I would hope we would then turn around and acquire Dellucci or someone to fill in that LF hole that Duncan will leave...So Taguchi is NOT an everyday starter and JRod will never get the chance to be.
JRod
JRod was offered no chance to
It's one of those can't win scenarios
It's a toss of the dice, and I say if they throw in bullpen help, we do it. If they don't, I say we don't.
ceiling
by Ryan Van Bibber on Jul 21, 2006 9:17 AM EDT reply actions
also
by Ryan Van Bibber on Jul 21, 2006 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
right....
You can't win if you dont score.
Or
You can't lose if they dont score.
???
by 5STL27 on Jul 21, 2006 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Many, many factors
With Edmonds heating up, mightn't this be the last time to go for it all with our current core of players?
Are Mark Prior's injuries mechanics-related or flukes? I ask because Reyes and he had the same instructor.
How much did the World Baseball Classic contribute to Willis' poor start? Given his funky pitching motion, it is conceivable that not having the time to fine tune it in the spring could have had a negative effect.
I'm more anxious about the potential for injury with Reyes than I was with Haren. I'm more enthusiastic about Willis (and his exuberence) than Mulder (with his business-casual approach). I'm less concerned with Willis' first-half 2006 numbers than Mulder's second-half 2004 numbers. However, Willis' pattern of second-half falling-offs is disconcerting if this deal is made with a World Series push in mind.
One of Prior's injuries was
But it's kinda a moot point, because Reyes has been hurt repeatedly in the minors.
Great, great post Larry
by steve in georgia on Jul 21, 2006 9:54 AM EDT reply actions
I'm just going to keep my mind fixed on
But as a note of caution ... I'm still having my doubts about info coming from the father of a beginning minor leaguer.
I questioned that too at first
Dontrelle question
by stanchar @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 21, 2006 10:00 AM EDT reply actions
2006 was his first year
Do it. Do it.
Reyes hasn't impressed me since that Sox game. Pomeranz has never impressed me watching him in Springfield (he always seems to pitch when I'm at the park). Rasmus...eh...there'll be another Rasmus by this time next year (isn't Rasmus the new Hearther, Hearther the new Duncan, etc.?) Duncan? See ya.
My only hangup is Willis. He's not a second-half pitcher, and has never REALLY played a big october role (didn't he come out of the bullpen mostly during the Marlins' 03 run?). This is a trade I would love in Spring Training. But, if he's not a #1, which he hasn't been since 03, perhaps Willis will get some rest, take some pressure off and carry us through.
Pull the trigger. We weren't going to win a title in 2008 anyway. Let's do it in 06. The road to the World Series has never been clearer.
ML
by itsalemmon1019 on Jul 21, 2006 10:07 AM EDT reply actions
Agreed. Do it.
If not, then this deal really is a matter of predicting Willis' and Reyes' success in the future. As the Mulder trade showed, attempting to be clairvoyant is hazardous. If it's just a matter of future success, this deal is a crap shoot. We probably stick with Reyes to save cash.
On the other hand, if we ARE trying to win this year, then this deal is a cinch. Grab Willis.
And, if we do it, then try to snag Craig Wilson or some such outfield fill-in, and we roll the dice against the Mets and the Tigers/White Sox/Yankees for a ring this year.
by Titus Pullo on Jul 21, 2006 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Question
Couldn't it be both? This fills our biggest hole and gives us a 1-2 punch that gives us a chance to win any playoff series. Clairvoyancy is always a tricky proposition, but couldn't this be seen as going for it this year and next year, and the next even?
I'm still not certain what I think, I'm just trying to get more opinions.
if we wanted to go for it this year
This is trying to thread the needle and go for this year and the future years...that kind of hesitancy makes me nervous on this deal.
I went full throttle for the Mulder deal and that bit me in the ass. I just can't support this one when all the peripherals are screaming at me again.
What's the deal on the table for Schmidt?
You can't evaluate trades in a vacuum, without also analyzing what you lose as well as what you get.
I don't know what the deal would
Plus, here's something that hasn't been mentioned: Barry's possible indictment. If that happens, I would think that Selig and Co. would try and suspend Bonds and the Giants would become instant sellers. Maybe I'm wrong in that assessment but I think that that is a very likely possibility.
I don't disagree
Personally, I'd give the nod the Willis since the guy almost won the Cy Young and he's only 24. IMO, Willis is a much better pitcher than Mulder ever was, and, to date, he certainly has had a better career than Reyes has. But how can a person feel certain about this? In my opinion, you can't. It's just a guess.
Making a trade on a guess is hard. But my point is, we don't have to guess. If we're going to try to win it all this season, then we clearly should make the trade. That's all I'm saying.
I like Lboros analysis
by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Age
What's more, the performance level prior to the trade is different. We acquired Mulder after a half season of worse-than-mediocrity. Willis has improved from a poor month earlier in the year.
Pre All Star Break vs Post All Star Break Numbers
Pre- (ERA/IP/H/ER/HR/BB/AVG)
2.84/314/309/99/18/86/.259
Post - (ERA/IP/H/ER/HR/BB/AVG)
3.76/280/262/117/26/88/205/.248
It looks like he strikes out a few more guys in the first half and gets bit by the long ball a bit worse but I don't think the stats really point to him falling apart. The peripherals seem to indicate that he is much the same player before and after but the ERA looks quite different. The AVG against is odd though as they actuall hit him LESS after the break...probably could use a more in depth look but work beckons.
Joe Bo....
Other things:
Dontrelle is not a one year rental, and is not a bank-buster-this trade would leave the team in a relatively good position to make a run in 2007--Carp, Willis, Wainwright would all be coming back. Sign a warm body fourth starter, and then give the minor leaguer of the day for the fifth spot. The entire infield is signed for 2007, Edmonds' extension is a no-brainer if he continues to produce at his old levels, and Enc is signed. That leaves enough money to spend on relief help, or on a fourth starter or a better left fielder.
Beyond that, there's going to be major rebuilding, as edmonds retirers, rolen begins to age (the ones that hustle always age the fastest, it seems), and Carp's contract runs out. Planning for 2008 doesn't make a ton of sense to me--the cards have two more chances to win a title with this nucleus. Make the move that maximizes their chances.
Do it, unless Jason Schmidt is availible for a similar package and Walt feels like he can sign him to an extension.
As far as arm strain, in StL he'd no longer have Jim Leyland trying to destroy his arm.
Yes--
by rockin redbird on Jul 21, 2006 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Schmidt!
but here's the problem
Another advantage is
Disagree
Charile Hustle
A couple thoughts
- How much is Willis number's affected by the fact he plays behind one of the worst defensive team in baseball?
- With so many young player's behind him maybe he is trying to hard?
- Has he lost anything on velocity in the recent years?
- How long do we have till Reyes gets on the DL?
I have come to the belief that the playoff's are a crapshoot. The hottest team wins it all. Some players have the potential to kick it up too extradionary levels. Willis is one of those players. With him and Carpenter we have the 2 headed beast that is tops in the league.
I am no where as worried about hitting as pitching. Willis can eat up innnings and help stabilize the bullpen in turn. This bullpen can be good when it is rested.
The biggest question is what Starting pitcher would be gone in the mix?
by DimitroffVodka on Jul 21, 2006 10:43 AM EDT reply actions
I haven't seen Willis pitch this year -
I think
by DimitroffVodka on Jul 21, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Q&A with Tom House from yesterday:
Tom House: Remember what we talked about the beginning. Mechanics, functional strength, and workload. He's been overworked.
ok tom
How can I guy be overworked when he is never healthy enough to actually WORK on any consistent basis?
if i had to guess
Too high a price
i'd pass
By month
April 3.13
May 6.45
June 2.51
July 3.86
Looks to me like he went through a rough patch and got out of it. May also saw a mild increase in his walk rate and a steep drop in his K rate.
what about peripherals...
whip by month
april-1.23
may-1.70
june-1.22
july-1.62
k/bb by month
april-1.75
may-1.46
june-3.00
july-1.9
baa by month
april-.235
may-.327
june-.268
july-.296
career line prior to 2006
era-3.27
whip-1.25
k/bb-2.59
so yeah, he had a good april, rough may, good june, and a mediocre looking july. is he terrible? no, but his peripherals are still off his career numbers. if you remove the bad may his whip is still 1.31 and k/bb is 2.16/1. his era would look nice at 2.99 but isnt really supported by the peripherals. he still needs to turn things around to match last year. he still needs to turn things around to be an ace/#1. bottom line, i dont want to a premium because he almost won the Cy LAST year. what can he do this year? is a 1.31 whip going to be that much better than reyes?
even MORE critically
April 3.28
May 1.06
June 1.52
July 2.07
And his year mark of 1.67 is way up for his career. Clearly this is an indication of coming dominance.
Though it does lend credence to perhaps some of his backsliding this year being due to defensive lapses by the Marlins ¡Rookie Squad!
go/fo
its not a sin to be a flyball pitcher. johan santana is a flyball pitcher. felix hernandez, greg maddux, miguel batista are ground ball pitchers all getting hit pretty hard this year.
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek
i wasnt sure...
OTOH
3.24 ERA in the last month
yep
Its easy to guess
by Lonedawg on Jul 21, 2006 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
On a side note
Key Question
Willis vs the Mets
2003/2005 - 8-1, 1.85 era, .224 baa in 78 ip and 11 games started. Also has 65k, 17bb (nearly 4/1) and a 1.09 whip.
by TheFranchise9 on Jul 21, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Willis vs. Mets by Individual Player
24 AB .292 BA.370 OBP/.583 SLG/.954 OPS
7 H/2 2B/1 3B/1 HR/6 RBI/ 6 SO
vs. Carolos Beltran
20 AB/.300 BA/.364 OBP/.350 SLG/.714 OPS
6 H/1 2B/0 3B/0 HR/1 BB/3 SO
vs. Carlos Delgado
3 AB/.333 BA/.333 OBP/.333 SLG/.667 OPS
1 H/ 0 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, BB, SO
vs. Jose Reyes
37 AB/.270 BA/.289 OBP/.324 SLG/.614 OPS
10 H/2 2B/0 3B/0 HR/1 RBI/1 BB/3 SO
vs. Cliff Floyd
18 AB/.167 BA/.211 OBP/.167 SLG/.377 OPS
3 H/0 2B, 3B, HR, RBI/1 BB/6 SO
vs. Xavier Nady
14 AB/.143 BA/.200 OBP/.286 SLG/ .486 OPS
2 H/2 2B/0 3B, HR/2 RBI/1 BB/1 SO
vs. Lo Duca
9 AB/.444 BA/.500 OBP/.444 SLG/.944 OPS
4 H/0 2B, 3B, HR/2 RBI/1 BB/0 SO
vs. Valentin
1 AB/ 1 SO
vs. Woodward
18 AB/.167 BA/.286 OBP/.444 SLG/.730 OPS
3 H/2 2B/ 0 3B/ 1 HR/ 1 RBI/3 BB/ 4 SO
vs. Castro
11 AB/.364 BA/.462 OBP/1.091 SLG/1.552 OPS
4 H/2 2B/0 3B/2 HR/2 RBI/2 BB/5 SO
vs. Chavez
10 AB/.300 BA/.300 OBP/.600 SLG/.900 OPS
3 H/1 2B/1 3B/ 0 HR/5 RBI/0 BB/1 SO
I think...
I'd say do the deal in a heartbeat if we can also get Borowski or somehow keep Rasmus out of it. If not I'd still probably do it. The LF situation without Duncan won't be too bad. We can toss J-Rod in there. Or Larry Bigbie, I think he's doing well during his rehad assignment. If he comes back to form...watch out. I'd like to see a World Series sooner rather than later. Lets go for it.
Willis
Dontrelle's arm will fall off...
Yr IP NP
2004 197 3127
2005 236 3598
2006 137 2198
If you project his stats out for 2006, he is on pace to pitch approximately 232 innings with 3700 pitches and that's NOT including this year's playoffs or his WBC games. Yikes!!
Also, look at his 2006 pitch count for each game:
120+ pitch games: 3
115+ pitch games: 9
100+ pitch games: 18
I know he's only 24 but man that is a lot of high pitch count games. Can he hold up?
I'm thinking not. I think he'll run out of gas late this year just when we need him. Then an injury later in 2007 or 2008.
I like Willis, I really do. I just think he has been overworked and the odds of injury are high. Giving up all those players is too much for a guy who has been overworked.
Willis
I tend to agree witth jdubya
With the Cards potentially doing this trade for this year's postseason push, Willis likely would not have a chance to rest. Rather, he would log a lot of innings and then, hopefully, go deep into the postseason. That's a lot of innings and pitches on an arm that is starting to show the effects of a lot of wear and tear.
Makes me nervous.
by BozCardsFanSF on Jul 21, 2006 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus
I wouldnt do it
The d-train may be overwortked in Miami, but i think if they got him they could talor that down...TLR usually doesnt ride pitchers too hard unless they are named JMarquis..jk He's def not a baker when it comes to that...
I liked what Bernie said yesterday...it made me think this though..Walt had a poor FA period...but didnt overspend(like for burnett) and could have more cash this year so maybe next year they could be alot better...So dont sell the farm for a maybe
c'mon
I say pull the trigger. Then try to deal either Marquis or Suppan to Toronto to dump their salary...if they'll take them. I know they need rotation help.
by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Elbirdos
With Carpenter and Dontrel at the top of the rotation and Wainwright moving into the rotation the Cards could bring back Suppan or Marquis pick up another pitcher in free agency or look at another of the youngsters that may be ready by next spring. Still will need a leftfielder and centerfielder (or they keep Edmonds, extension at lower rate?). Who knows but this trade does not kill the future per se, but place them in a better position long term on the mound. Indeed this is very interesting if it all goes down.
by TexasCard on Jul 21, 2006 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
Do the deal
P.S. If we pass on Willis and he goes to another Central Division team, how would we feel? Not good, I'm guessing.
Why couldn't we do this:
Anthony Reyes
Cody Haerther
Chris Duncan
Stuart Pomeranz
Nick Stavinoho (sp)
to the Marlins for:
Dontrelle Willis
Josh Willingham
The worst part of this deal is that it doesn't get
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 21, 2006 1:04 PM EDT reply actions
Additional trade
I"m still not giving up on
Imagine a playoff rotation of:
Carp
A good Mulder
possibly D-Train
I like those odds.
throw in an outfielder and its a good deal
Willis Marketing
Also, since getting him would lead to an excess of pitching, they could easily shut him down for a few weeks if they think he's been overworked.
by dayimetmusial on Jul 21, 2006 1:17 PM EDT reply actions
Rasmus
St Louis
by heart cards on Jul 21, 2006 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
Good Point
by dayimetmusial on Jul 21, 2006 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
to further
Been there, done that. I'd stick with sophie if I could do it again, even if it hurts my chances to be prom king this year.
Then, there's the effect
While I like the way the ball jumps off Duncan's bat, it might be best for his career that he play for a team that doesn't employ his father, and for a team that could let him play 1B. You can mix-and-match in LF with J-Rod, So, Speez, and possibly Luna. Great? Of course not. But with El Hombre, Rolen, and a resurgent JEd in the middle of the lineup, you don't have to have a great LF bat to win the playoffs.
I repeat what I said yesterday... It's all about the pitching! I hope this alleged deal goes through... even if it doesn't work!
With ya, OG
by rockin redbird on Jul 21, 2006 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
another note on
We have to go for it while Albert is still el hombre.
by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Our best prospect?
I like what I know of Rasmus, and I hope he develops, but Willis is a proven major talent at the highest level, and we should get him if we can.
Starting to come around on this
One thought occurred to me. I think that this move would mean one of two things: 1) the Cards are planning, currently at least, to pick up Edmond's option (or restructure and extend), or 2) another deal is in the works for an OF ('though it wouldn't be a top-name guy like Abreu, et al)
Unless, of course, they've already penciled in Bigbie's triumphant return! <grin>
hmmm....
by matt reeder on Jul 21, 2006 2:17 PM EDT reply actions
Marquis in playoffs?
Marquis pitching in the playoffs? Lord help us.
I thought pretty highly of Marquis last year after his strong finish in the regular season, and might have picked starting him over Matt Morris in the playoffs. But I can't imagine Marquis this year in the playoffs. His regular season games feel like Rick Ankiel playoff games. What will the added pressure of a playoff game do to Marquis?
This is a roundabout way of saying that Reyes has to be a safer bet in the playoffs than Marquis, with more upside for a spectacular game.
I'm not sure how I feel about Reyes vs. Willis. I sure like Reyes's salary for the next 3-4 years. If their performances are going to be at all comparable in that timeframe, it seems like a no brainer to hang on to Reyes for budget reasons.
Lboros
by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:53 PM EDT reply actions
dumb question but
Also, if we trade Duncan (who I'm becomming a fan of more and more each day), now we need to go out and get a LF. The platoon just won't cut it come playoff time.
again.. im new here so please take it easy
Two more arb years after this
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 21, 2006 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Reyes or Wainwright?
I'm a big fan of both guys but I'd rather have Wainwright than Reyes.
Interesting...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 21, 2006 3:45 PM EDT reply actions
FunkeeC
by 26thMan on Jul 21, 2006 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Jon Jay
I am starting to like the possibility of Dontrell in Cardinal Red.
by TexasCard on Jul 21, 2006 3:51 PM EDT reply actions
Psychological impact?
"With the Brewers in pennant-race limbo and with yesterday's off-day, there isn't much going on today. A few things of interest:
The Cards are after Dontrelle...and it sounds pretty serious. That would certainly put the Central out of reach, which is probably is already."
There's obviously no stats to evaluate or predict this but it's clearly worth considering. I say go for it with the psychological angle being the tiebreaker for me. Think about it this way: how would we feel if our closest competitor traded for Dontrelle?
if they were to trade AW or Reyes
Similar to Aw..he was the big part of the Drew trade from waht everyone said. He was hurt, then made a jump from a to AAA and sucked for a bit if i remeber right.
Im not familiar wiht reyes as much other than this board and the TLR bashers cause reyes took so long to get into the rotation
From the Agent
Here's his reply... and he later added "Please make it very clear that it's only my opinion."}
Matt,
I don't believe that Dontrelle will be traded before the deadline. Based on a Marlin's strategy that seems to be focused around hoarding talented, pre-arbitration players, particularly pitching. Larry Beinfest has done an amazing job getting prospects for high priced veterans, and Dontrelle seems to be not only the face of the Marlins, but a number one starter for many years. If the team is to get a new stadium, or to realize full worth in another city, trading any of the young stars
Dontrelle does have a warm relationship with Tony, as he has participated in ARF fundraisers
in Northern California. Contrary to opinions before the year began, I imagine that the Marlin's ownership feels much closer to winning than they did in spring training. Once they sign a stadium deal, in South Florida or in another city, I would imagine that the owner would be willing to invest heavily in free agents, as has been his pattern in the past. Theoretically, that would make the Marlins instant pennant contenders.
Warmly,
Matt Sosnick
by Matt @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 21, 2006 4:13 PM EDT reply actions
Brian Walton is now saying
As for Anthony Reyes, I don't understand why everyone has started to turn away from him. Because he hasn't repeated his performance against the White Sox? That's the flipside to putting on such a dominating performance, that if you don't repeat it, everyone will hate you.
For peace of mind, just remember that he is 24 and a rookie. He's going to make mistakes, but I'm thinking he'll learn. Rafael Furcal, Ken Lofton, Just Disabled and Jeff Kent are professional hitters, and Reyes did them in.
by ryanisforever on Jul 21, 2006 4:18 PM EDT reply actions
i'm not suggesting
Still a newbie
And thank you very much for the link today; you've basically quadrupled my traffic. :-)
by 26thMan on Jul 21, 2006 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Brian Walton
here's my beef w walton
he has made two very high-profile errors in reporting -- in the winter of 2004 he reported, as fact, that the cardinals had re-signed edgar renteria, and then he repeated the error last winter by reporting, as fact, that the cards had signed a.j. burnett. in both cases, the same day of his erroneous report, the player signed elsewhere.
at the time of the burnett thing, a lot of people jumped all over brian. i defended him. i felt as if people were acting like it was somehow walton's fault that burnett had signed somewhere else, which is ridiculous. i also felt people were unfairly ascribing bad intentions to walton.
so i'm more than slightly annoyed with the commentary walton wrote yesterday about the dontrelle trade talks --- that's what started this little chain of comments. in that piece walton was very condescending toward mlbtraderumors.com, a site that has been very helpful to me and that takes a lot of unfair flak --- just like walton did at the time of aj. walton made a lot of unfair (and untrue) assumptions about traderumors' actions and intentions, and it ticked me off. brian, of all people, ought to know how events can make you look like a liar, even when you're telling the truth.
but what really ticked me off is that brian didn't send an e-mail to traderumors --- or to bernie, who also was in the middle of all the dontrelle stuff -- and educate himself about the provenance of that information. i sent e-mails to both of em, plus a couple of other contacts, and sized up the situation before i wrote anything.
if walton had done the same, he wouldn't have written what he did. and he shouldn't have written it -- hence my dismissive comment
I don't think
by rockin redbird on Jul 21, 2006 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN
2. I tried not to get to hyped over a "rumor" thats what they are unitl its done...rumors
eh
http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/delgado_blasts_way_out_of_his_home_run_slump_mets_mark_hale.htm
If Marlins don't want Milledge for Willis, I don't think we can get him.
I hope it's not dead,
by Birdsfanstuckinohio on Jul 21, 2006 4:33 PM EDT reply actions
NO Reyes Sat?
I am going to all 3 games this week-end...
by cardsnutincali on Jul 21, 2006 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
I'll believe it
Well, logic says
by cardsnutincali on Jul 21, 2006 5:33 PM EDT reply actions
A few comments
Also, (this may sound like a dumb juvenile question) would Dave Duncan being the pitching coach have any sort of negative effects on the trade (i. e., would he tell Walt not to trade his son or something like that)?


















