Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: Sounder At Heart for Seattle Sounders Fans!

test of willis

like i was saying yesterday: "baseball news often breaks when i'm called away from the laptop, so don't be at all surprised if the cardinals announce a trade this afternoon."

so, next best thing. this ain't no idle rumor; jock is indeed deep into negotiations for dontrelle willis. it's a fact. the current scenario has reyes, rasmus, duncan, and stu pomeranz heading to florida for dontrelle. i'm not saying the cards have made a firm offer of that package; i'm saying that was the state of the negotiations as of late last evening.

back on march 9, idly blogging in the 2d week of spring training, i found myself fantasizing about trade-for-dontrelle scenarios:

fast-forward to midseason: if the cards offered, say, reyes mccormick and haerther for dontrelle . . . wouldn't florida at least have to listen? they just dumped another arb-eligible pitcher, josh beckett -- whose contract is similar in total value to dontrelle's, ~$4.5m -- to boston for a comparable package of prospects. maybe they'd insist on colby rasmus; if so i still think it'd be worth it. by adding dontrelle to carpenter, the cards would have the thing that has beaten them all these years -- the 2-headed monster at the top of the rotation, the schilling-johnson, schilling-pedro, clemens-oswalt type of pairing. with both pitchers locked up through 2008, the cardinals wouldn't have to fear any postseason foe for sev'l years; on the contrary, they would be the feared ones.
four months later, do i stand behind that post? . . . . .

. . . i dunno.

from a purely philosophical standpoint, it's my kind of trade: a roll of the dice, high-risk / high-reward. it also fits jocketty's pattern to some extent -- he'd rather make bold moves than tinker. dontrelle really could be an over-the-hump player -- the 2d ace that has been missing from the cards' postseason hand year after year. he could mean the diff'nce between another dispiriting playoff experience and a serious run at a championship; that alone makes the trade attractive.

but willis would come at a steep price. too steep? let's break it down, beginning with the two toss-ins, pomeranz and duncan.

pomeranz is a double a mound prospect in an increasingly crowded field. lambert and parisi are already in the mix; hawksworth and haberer have moved up from high-a this summer; garcia and boggs will be there next season; and narveson is already ahead of pomeranz at triple a and pitching well. stu's peripherals ain't so hot; he looks like a back-of-rotation guy at best. replaceable part; likely won't be missed. as for duncan, his stock is never going to be higher than it is now. if the cardinals had taken care of business and acquired a decent left-fielder, he would have no value at all; by happy accident he has gotten an opportunity and performed at (nay, above) the top of his range for 75 at-bats, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a very limited range of skills -- can't field, can't run, and won't hit for avg over the long haul. he could be an ok part-timer, but nothing more in my opinion. like pomeranz, a replaceable part.

next up: rasmus. extremely talented player, probably a future mlb regular -- but a star? way too soon to say; the odds are against it. he won't reach the majors until 2009 at the earliest, and he very likely won't be an "impact" player at the big-league level until 2010 or beyond -- if ever. his potential value is great, no question about it  . . . but is that more valuable than a clean shot at a pennant in 2006? let's frame it like this: how many future pennants is the loss of rasmus likely to cost the cardinals? from that number, subtract the estimated number of pennants the cardinals might lose if they pass on dontrelle this year  . . .

to me, the trade pivots on willis v reyes. i say this with the mulder trade in mind; the great regret of that deal is that haren -- not mulder -- turned out to be the strong #2 pitcher the cardinals so badly needed. barton and calero were simply the cost of doing business; it's the loss of haren that stings.

might that happen a 2d time in this trade? two questions: a) who's more likely to pitch the cards to a pennant this season, reyes or willis? and b) which one is more likely to pitch the cards to a pennant in 2007-08? i'll take them in reverse order:

who's more likely to pitch the cards to a pennant in 2007-08 ? willis has been overworked at a tender age and has struggled with inconsistent mechanics; both would seem to make him a prime candidate for DL time in the near future. i will note, however, that during spring training baseball prospectus' will carroll said this about him: "When it comes to workhorse pitchers, Sir Mix-A-Lot appears to have had it right. Willis, Livan Hernandez, and C.C. Sabathia have a lot in common in this department." dontrelle's list of comps at BP includes some guys who had great years in their early 20s but then flamed out -- jim abbott, steve avery, ismael valdez -- and two guys named mark who are both at mid-career and showing signs of decline -- buehrle and mulder. there's also one guy whose career nearly ended at age 31 and only resumed (albeit two years later) because of a very uncertain, now famous famous surgical procedure: tommy john.

at the very least, there is a significant chance that dontrelle will pitch worse in 2007-08 than he did in 2005-06; you might even say that's a probability. whether he slides into middling effectiveness, as mulder has, or into flat-out uselessness, a la ismael valdez, remains to be seen.

what does PECOTA say? willis is not missing his projection by much this season -- he's actually beating his VORP forecast, and is only slightly underperforming vis-vis era, hits/9, and strikeouts/9. (PECOTA anticipated willis' drop in k/9 this year.) for 2007 and 2008, PECOTA has dontrelle posting 3.60ish eras with 1.25ish whips --- nearly identical to chris carpenter's projections for those two seasons, nearly as good as jason schmidt's and roy oswalt's. ie, PECOTA has him right up there with the elite --- and he's so close to his PECOTA in 2006, i wouldn't expect that projection to change much.

but can't the cards expect a 3.60 era and 1.25 whip out of anthony reyes?

PECOTA doesn't think so; it has reyes at ~3.90 the next couple of years. and let's not forget, reyes has arm/mechanics issues of his own; he may be just as great an injury risk as dontrelle. i doubt reyes will ever have a single year as good as dontrelle's 2005 . . .  but dontrelle probably won't, either. these guys are about the same age; reyes has a better strikeout rate, a better k/w, and a lower avg allowed, but he is more HR prone. who's going to pitch better from today through 2008? i think it's pretty close, but i'm leaning to reyes. factor in the salary differential -- reyes at a few hundred K, vs willis at $5m to $10m per year, and it's no contest which of the two will be the more valuable.

who's likely to be the better pitcher for the rest of 2006 (including the postseason) -- reyes or willis? dontrelle's overall line -- 6-7, 3.94 era, 1.42 whip -- is hardly ace-like; his strikeouts are down this year, his hits allowed up. i checked his BABIP over at fangraphs and found it right in line with his career avgs; we can't say he's just pitched in poor luck. i did, however, see something not to like at that page: willis' rate of infield popups is way down this year, about half of his established level. that is worrisome, particularly when taken in conjunction with the dwindling strikeout rate; when a power pitcher is on his game, he tends to get a lot of pop flies.

the sagging peripherals make us all think one thing: mulder, whose 2004  line bore all the same caution flags. many people heeded those warning and predicted -- correctly -- that mulder would never be the ace st louis hoped he would be. so might dontrelle simply be mulder II? maybe; but i'm not convinced. the cardinals acquired mulder after the worst half-season of his career -- an era in the 6s. willis by contrast is actually pitching very well; his overall line this year is skewed by one horrible month (may) in which his mechanics apparently got way out of whack. since june 1 he is 5-2 with a 2.93 era and a 1.34 whip; his strikeout rate is up during that period, too. in his last 54 starts (back to the start of 2005), dontrelle has held opponents to 3 runs or fewer 41 times; he consistently gives his team a good chance to win.

that's a record of reliability that reyes simply can't match; not at this stage. he looks like a fine pitcher to me, but he hasn't established an ability to pitch deep into games. might he get hot in october? possibly; after seeing what he did vs the white sox, i wouldn't put anything past him. but there's no guarantee he'll even be in the rotation come october; if mulder comes back and is able to pitch, i'm guessing tony/dunc choose carp mulder marquis + suppan as the four postseason starters.

so  . . . . where does that leave us? it leaves us at a pivotal moment for the franchise. if they pull the trigger, the front office is basically saying the future is now -- that, even if the cards hang on to their youngsters, stl's odds of winning a pennant are all downhill over the next five years. you look at the young talent massing up in cincinnati and milwaukee and new york and atlanta and florida, and you can understand why jocketty might draw that conclusion. and you can understand why he might look for an equalizer -- a guy who, best-case, is a 2d hammer atop the rotation.

if st louis takes a pass, they're indicating one of two things: either a) better championship opportunities are forthcoming soon, and reyes rasmus et al will play important roles in creating those opportunties; or b) the cards think they'll have a chance to acquire a pitcher as good as willis (or better) at lower cost/risk.

my own opinion is that the "future is now" assessment has more truth to it; i'm not convinced that any of the four guys they are giving up is going to be a difference-making type of player anytime soon. reyes might be the lone exception, and because of his high injury risk i'm not even sure if he fits the bill. of the five players involved in this trade scenario, willis represents the most scarce commodity -- a left-handed pitcher with an all-star / cy young talent ceiling.

if i'm walt, i try to get florida to throw joe borowski into this deal; if they agree, i pull the trigger immediately.

and if they refuse?

i close my eyes, take a deep breath, and roll the dice. you cannot win if you do not play . . . .

poll and discussion in this diary. see also other perspectives at reverend redbird, 26th man, and luck o the redbirds. bernie miklasz weighed in yesterday.

0 recs  |  Comment 122 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Great post lboros
A really fine analysis of the issue at hand. There's going to (probably) be a little bit of hesitation among fans when looking at a "sell the farm" deal like this...I know I have those hesitations anyway...but this seems like a really great risk, if it can be pulled off, for all those reasons you list above.

As for October, is it just my imagination or doesn't Willis have a reputation for slipping down the stretch? I seem to recall his Septmeber lines never really look very good. I'll have to look up his playoff record...

by cmat on Jul 21, 2006 9:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm so torn on this
His post-May numbers have been ace like...
But Reyes has shown flashes of brillance and Rasmus has star potential...

But more importantly I think this team has to win a pennant now...it is a crossroads...  I was not nearly this conflicted about the Mulder trade (I loved it) but I'm just torn.

I guess I'd say go for it, but I'm tenative, and I would hope they would pry away Borowski too.  But here's my addendum question - LF?  I would hope we would then turn around and acquire Dellucci or someone to fill in that LF hole that Duncan will leave...So Taguchi is NOT an everyday starter and JRod will never get the chance to be.

by azruavatar on Jul 21, 2006 9:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

JRod
JRod had his chance to be an everyday player for most of the first half of the season. Displaying no power (his only real 2005 commodity), poor baserunning, and abhorrent defense does not an everday player make.

by roebirds on Jul 21, 2006 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

JRod was offered no chance to
play on a daily basis.  I'm speaking of something more along the lines of the Matt Murton experiment in Chicago. At leas then we know what we have.

by azruavatar on Jul 21, 2006 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's one of those can't win scenarios
If we make the trade, Dontrelle declines like Mulder, and Reyes becomes Haren #2 or an ace in the Halladay/Carpenter model (that ChiSox game was amazing), we lose, bad. If we don't make the trade, and Dontrelle stays good, and Reyes gets hurt... we lose, bad.

It's a toss of the dice, and I say if they throw in bullpen help, we do it. If they don't, I say we don't.

by SirVLCIV on Jul 21, 2006 9:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ceiling
Reyes has a higher ceiling. swap him out with Wainwright, and it would be more tolerable...still that's a Brian Cashman special, but the heart is torn.

by VanRam on Jul 21, 2006 9:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

also
it's no guarantee this season with Willis. i know pitching can compensate for alot in Oct, but i recall runs being awfully hard to come by the last fall.

by VanRam on Jul 21, 2006 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right....
So is it:
You can't win if you dont score.

Or

You can't lose if they dont score.

???

by 5STL27 on Jul 21, 2006 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Many, many factors
This trade seems to be too much, but I'm more open to it than the Mulder trade. After seeing Haren pitch in '04 in the playoffs, you could see that he had that intensity necessary for success (as someone who enjoys statistical analysis, I cannot justify that statement with anything to back it up).

With Edmonds heating up, mightn't this be the last time to go for it all with our current core of players?

Are Mark Prior's injuries mechanics-related or flukes? I ask because Reyes and he had the same instructor.

How much did the World Baseball Classic contribute to Willis' poor start? Given his funky pitching motion, it is conceivable that not having the time to fine tune it in the spring could have had a negative effect.

I'm more anxious about the potential for injury with Reyes than I was with Haren. I'm more enthusiastic about Willis (and his exuberence) than Mulder (with his business-casual approach). I'm less concerned with Willis' first-half 2006 numbers than Mulder's second-half 2004 numbers. However, Willis' pattern of second-half falling-offs is disconcerting if this deal is made with a World Series push in mind.

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 9:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

One of Prior's injuries was
a batted ball off of an elbow.  You'll hear cubs fans constantly claim that his injuries are pretty flukey stuff like that.  

But it's kinda a moot point, because Reyes has been hurt repeatedly in the minors.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great, great post Larry
I'm really conflicted about this. I'm right down the middle.

by steve in georgia on Jul 21, 2006 9:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm just going to keep my mind fixed on
happy fun best-case scenarios here and imagine Carp-Mulder-Willis in top form cruising through the playoffs.  And be very, very glad that I'm not the guy who has to make a decision here!

But as a note of caution ... I'm still having my doubts about info coming from the father of a beginning minor leaguer.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 21, 2006 9:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I questioned that too at first
But Miklasz pretty much completely backed up the claim and even supplied the extra names, so that made it a bit easier to believe that this is legit.

by stlnd on Jul 21, 2006 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dontrelle question
If he is only in his 4th year he is arbitration eligible after this season--so why is he earning 4.5 mil this season.  Couldn't the Marlins pay him significantly less?????

by stanchar on Jul 21, 2006 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

2006 was his first year
of being arby eligible and his salay was a record for first-time arbitration-eligible starting pitchers.  when you nearly win the cy young thats going to happen.

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do it. Do it.
You're right, lboros. This is a seminal moment for the team. It's like we're racing across train tracks, and the lights are flashing--if we make it, well, we're an abbreviated version of the Yankees of the late 90s, and have the title we wanted so badly. If we don't make it--we're mid-90s Orioles. Either way, we have to try, in my book.

Reyes hasn't impressed me since that Sox game. Pomeranz has never impressed me watching him in Springfield (he always seems to pitch when I'm at the park). Rasmus...eh...there'll be another Rasmus by this time next year (isn't Rasmus the new Hearther, Hearther the new Duncan, etc.?) Duncan? See ya.

My only hangup is Willis. He's not a second-half pitcher, and has never REALLY played a big october role (didn't he come out of the bullpen mostly during the Marlins' 03 run?). This is a trade I would love in Spring Training. But, if he's not a #1, which he hasn't been since 03, perhaps Willis will get some rest, take some pressure off and carry us through.

Pull the trigger. We weren't going to win a title in 2008 anyway. Let's do it in 06. The road to the World Series has never been clearer.

ML

by itsalemmon1019 on Jul 21, 2006 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. Do it.
The only question here is:  Are we making a serious run this year or not?

If not, then this deal really is a matter of predicting Willis' and Reyes' success in the future.   As the Mulder trade showed, attempting to be clairvoyant is hazardous.  If it's just a matter of future success, this deal is a crap shoot.  We probably stick with Reyes to save cash.

On the other hand, if we ARE trying to win this year, then this deal is a cinch.  Grab Willis.  

And, if we do it, then try to snag Craig Wilson or some such outfield fill-in, and we roll the dice against the Mets and the Tigers/White Sox/Yankees for a ring this year.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jul 21, 2006 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question
Dude,

Couldn't it be both? This fills our biggest hole and gives us a 1-2 punch that gives us a chance to win any playoff series. Clairvoyancy is always a tricky proposition, but couldn't this be seen as going for it this year and next year, and the next even?

I'm still not certain what I think, I'm just trying to get more opinions.

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if we wanted to go for it this year
we'd get schmidt

This is trying to thread the needle and go for this year and the future years...that kind of hesitancy makes me nervous on this deal.

I went full throttle for the Mulder deal and that bit me in the ass.  I just can't support this one when all the peripherals are screaming at me again.

by azruavatar on Jul 21, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's the deal on the table for Schmidt?
What's the asking price?  I don't think this question has an answer, and that, in itself, may be your answer, Vatar.

You can't evaluate trades in a vacuum, without also analyzing what you lose as well as what you get.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jul 21, 2006 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know what the deal would
be for schmidt...but I would think that given his agem free agency status, and contract size that we could get him for Reyes and some throw ins - certainly less than what Willis would cost.  The Giants are going to have to get younger fast in their outfield and Duncan's stock is high right now.  Also they are atrocious at first base so he could play his natural posistion.

Plus, here's something that hasn't been mentioned: Barry's possible indictment.  If that happens, I would think that Selig and Co. would try and suspend Bonds and the Giants would become instant sellers.  Maybe I'm wrong in that assessment but I think that that is a very likely possibility.  

by azruavatar on Jul 21, 2006 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree
that, in the coming years, Willis possibly will improve the Cardinals' chances of winning more than Reyes, Rasmus, and Dunc will.  But I am completely persuaded by LBoros and other commentators who point out that it's a close call.  

Personally, I'd give the nod the Willis since the guy almost won the Cy Young and he's only 24.  IMO, Willis is a much better pitcher than Mulder ever was, and, to date, he certainly has had a better career than Reyes has.  But how can a person feel certain about this?  In my opinion, you can't.  It's just a guess.  

Making a trade on a guess is hard.  But my point is, we don't have to guess.  If we're going to try to win it all this season, then we clearly should make the trade.  That's all I'm saying.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jul 21, 2006 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Lboros analysis
Reyes and willis are the same age.  I think Willis would give this team a jolt that it needs as well.  I would love it if we could get them to throw in Borowski.  I trust Walt Jocketty to have thought about all the things we're thinking about, but with more knowledge.  Let's hope!

by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Age
A great point on the age. With the Mulder trade, we were giving up potential for an older, established veteran pitcher. The Reyes trade would bring an established veteran pitcher of the same age. True, with more pitches thrown, but it is also true that Willis has a lesser history of injury as well.

What's more, the performance level prior to the trade is different. We acquired Mulder after a half season of worse-than-mediocrity. Willis has improved from a poor month earlier in the year.

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pre All Star Break vs Post All Star Break Numbers
For the last 3 years:
Pre- (ERA/IP/H/ER/HR/BB/AVG)
2.84/314/309/99/18/86/.259

Post - (ERA/IP/H/ER/HR/BB/AVG)
3.76/280/262/117/26/88/205/.248

It looks like he strikes out a few more guys in the first half and gets bit by the long ball a bit worse but I don't think the stats really point to him falling apart.  The peripherals seem to indicate that he is much the same player before and after but the ERA looks quite different.  The AVG against is odd though as they actuall hit him LESS after the break...probably could use a more in depth look but work beckons.

by azruavatar on Jul 21, 2006 10:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Joe Bo....
The Marlins are actively looking to move him because they believe Tankersley or Logan Kensing are the closer of the future.  That said, the market for pitching is so incredibly high that they may believe that they can do a seperate deal for him and get a lot more.  

by Brock20 on Jul 21, 2006 10:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Other things:
we just can't keep on sending Marquis and Suppan out there.  Weaver may or may not recover.  There is a desperate need for a warm body, any warm body to back up Carp.  If JoBo is in the deal, it's basically trading for two starters, as it would let Wainwright move to the rotation, with enough time to have him fully conditioned for the postseason.  

Dontrelle is not a one year rental, and is not a bank-buster-this trade would leave the team in a relatively good position to make a run in 2007--Carp, Willis, Wainwright would all be coming back.  Sign a warm body fourth starter, and then give the minor leaguer of the day for the fifth spot.  The entire infield is signed for 2007, Edmonds' extension is a no-brainer if he continues to produce at his old levels, and Enc is signed.  That leaves enough money to spend on relief help, or on a fourth starter or a better left fielder.  

Beyond that, there's going to be major rebuilding, as edmonds retirers, rolen begins to age (the ones that hustle always age the fastest, it seems), and Carp's contract runs out.  Planning for 2008 doesn't make a ton of sense to me--the cards have two more chances to win a title with this nucleus.  Make the move that maximizes their chances.

Do it, unless Jason Schmidt is availible for a similar package and Walt feels like he can sign him to an extension.

As far as arm strain, in StL he'd no longer have Jim Leyland trying to destroy his arm.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 10:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes--
It's time to go for it. As V points out, this year and next are gonna be it for the nucleus of this era's Birds, and it's this era's Birds who have had the best chances to bring home october bacon in a looooong time. Roll the dice--08 and 09 are gonna bring a whole slew of changes anyway, too many to predict in what form success or failure will manifest. It seems like a big price, but I agree with LB that the bottom line is really Reyes for Willis and Reyes has had many injuries himself and hasn't filled the savior role we needed him to fill (which was expecting too much anyway, IMO). Willis may not pan out as that savior either, but as far as 06 and 07 are concerned, I'd put my money on Willis taking them farther than Reyes. It's a good bet and I respect Walt for having the stones to pursue it. It displays a return to the "win now while we've got a great team" attitude that I think has been sorely lacking this year. Now let's see if it happens.

by rockin redbird on Jul 21, 2006 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Schmidt!
You just rang the bell. Schmidt is a much better gamble than Dontrelle for this year and for 07-08, IMO. I see a much greater potential for letdown with Willis than Schmidt. For one, Schmidt is a veteran, and is much more likely to jibe with Duncan. For another, he has established a longer track record of success, and it came after his age 28 season, which suggests that it is borne of mental maturity more than mere physical gifts or fooling batters with an unconventional motion. I just don't see Willis blossoming under Duncan, and acquiring that same mental maturation into true "ace" material.

by taiko on Jul 21, 2006 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but here's the problem
dontrelle will cost about $15m over the next two seasons. schmidt will require about a $50m commitment over the next 4-5 seasons --- and there's no guarantee the cardinals could keep him.

by lboros on Jul 21, 2006 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another advantage is
when the inevitable rebuilding comes, Willis is young enough that he would probably still be a major league quality player when we come out of the phase--sign him and Pujols long-term, and in 2011, they'll be 29 and 31 respectively, still young enough to be in their prime production years.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree
I'm not a fan of the deal as it currently stands anyway, but I'd be even more against giving up this group for Schmidt. Not because I think Willis is better than Schmidt, just because I think if the Cards are gonna bet the farm then they better at least get someone who will give them years of service, not just months. The deal's already a risk, no reason to add on the extra risk that Schmidt may not sign with the Cards when the season's done. And as lboros points out, Willis comes a lot cheaper money-wise, which means it'll be easier to add yet another good starter or some outfield help next year.

by stlnd on Jul 21, 2006 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Charile Hustle
Pete Rose aged pretty well and he is the best known "hustle" guy in history.
"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 21, 2006 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A couple thoughts
  • How much is Willis number's affected by the fact he plays behind one of the worst defensive team in baseball?
  • With so many young player's behind him maybe he is trying to hard?
  • Has he lost anything on velocity in the recent years?
  • How long do we have till Reyes gets on the DL?
I think Reyes is injury prone and Duncan is playing above his head. They are both at all time high on the stock market. I think people remember the sting of Mulder trade and that is why people are still hesitant.

I have come to the belief that the playoff's are a  crapshoot. The hottest team wins it all. Some players have the potential to kick it up too extradionary levels. Willis is one of those players. With him and Carpenter we have the 2 headed beast that is tops in the league.

I am no where as worried about hitting as pitching. Willis can eat up innnings and help stabilize the bullpen in turn. This bullpen can be good when it is rested.

The biggest question is what Starting pitcher would be gone in the mix?

by DimitroffVodka on Jul 21, 2006 10:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It would have to be Suppan
he's been Marquis this year... without the good starts.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't seen Willis pitch this year -
what's his velocity?  I don't want any more pitchers who can't get above 90 mph.

by sdrone on Jul 21, 2006 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
I think he hits about 92 with his fastball

by DimitroffVodka on Jul 21, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Q&A with Tom House from yesterday:
Baseball Prospectus: Before we end, I want to make sure to ask you about one of your poster children, Mark Prior. He's lauded for having pristine mechanics, and while he's had a few freak injuries, he's also had some arm woes. Why is that?

Tom House: Remember what we talked about the beginning. Mechanics, functional strength, and workload. He's been overworked.

by Tim Dierkes on Jul 21, 2006 10:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ok tom
Overworked by who?

How can I guy be overworked when he is never healthy enough to actually WORK on any consistent basis?

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jul 21, 2006 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dusty
down the stretch in 2003.  Hasn't been the same since.
8/13/79- Lou Brock 3000 hits

by lb3000 on Jul 21, 2006 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if i had to guess
its not in terms of total innings pitched but in pitches per game.  

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too high a price
Reyes AND Rasmus is a little too much to give up for just Willis.  Reyes is already a very good MLB caliber pitcher, Rasmus has real star potential, (something Duncan has never had.  BA has all but announced that Rasmus will be securely within the top 100 next year something neither Haerther nor Duncan ever held.  It's all raves.) Plus the red-flags on Willis and that's just too much talent to be giving up.  
A diamond is just a lump of coal that performed well under pressure

by joker24 on Jul 21, 2006 10:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i'd pass
with that package i'd want someone who is pitching like an ace, not someone we hope can turn it around and pitch like an ace.

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 10:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

By month
Dontrelle's ERA

April 3.13
May 6.45
June 2.51
July 3.86

Looks to me like he went through a rough patch and got out of it.  May also saw a mild increase in his walk rate and a steep drop in his K rate.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what about peripherals...
era is just part of the equation.

whip by month

april-1.23
may-1.70
june-1.22
july-1.62

k/bb by month

april-1.75
may-1.46
june-3.00
july-1.9

baa by month

april-.235
may-.327
june-.268
july-.296

career line prior to 2006
era-3.27
whip-1.25
k/bb-2.59

so yeah, he had a good april, rough may, good june, and a mediocre looking july.  is he terrible?  no, but his peripherals are still off his career numbers.  if you remove the bad may his whip is still 1.31 and k/bb is 2.16/1.  his era would look nice at 2.99 but isnt really supported by the peripherals.  he still needs to turn things around to match last year.  he still needs to turn things around to be an ace/#1.  bottom line, i dont want to a premium because he almost won the Cy LAST year.  what can he do this year?  is a 1.31 whip going to be that much better than reyes?  

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

even MORE critically
Groundout/Flyout

April 3.28
May 1.06
June 1.52
July 2.07

And his year mark of 1.67 is way up for his career.  Clearly this is an indication of coming dominance.

Though it does lend credence to perhaps some of his backsliding this year being due to defensive lapses by the Marlins ¡Rookie Squad!

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

go/fo
go/fo would mean he fits with duncan's philosophy, which is nice, but go/fo is not an indication of skill level.  its not an indication of success.

its not a sin to be a flyball pitcher.  johan santana is a flyball pitcher.  felix hernandez, greg maddux, miguel batista are ground ball pitchers all getting hit pretty hard this year.  

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek
after the recent fracas over Reyes, I though making this point would be a little funny.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i wasnt sure...
i thought it might have been a joke but wasnt sure

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OTOH
as the stats show, he HAS turned it around.  Discount the bad month at the beginning of the year.

by sdrone on Jul 21, 2006 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry
i wasnt explicit enough.  he has turned things around to have a decent year.  he still needs to improve to match last year's level or something that would be considered typical of an ace/#1 type starter.  

by dmb60614 on Jul 21, 2006 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3.24 ERA in the last month
He's not turning it around, he had a string of crappy starts super early in the season and is back to form. The bad starts were the anomoly, not his current level of play.

by effin fisk on Jul 21, 2006 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

WBC
Dontrelle also pitched in the WBC which more than likely played a role in his early struggles.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jul 21, 2006 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep
I'm with you on this.  The package that we'd be giving up is worth an ace who is not showing any signs of faltering.  We can make excuses and apologies till the cows come home about why Willis had his "bump" earlier in the year but he did have it.  Was it just an anomaly?  Perhaps... but do you really want to bet Reyes and Rasmus on it?  The arguments why some do are not entirely unpersuasive but I still think we should hold off on this one.

by satori21 on Jul 21, 2006 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its easy to guess
I think the important point everyone is missing here is the difference between Reyes and Willis is this, Willis is a proven winner, Reyes has potential.  Reyes has had one great outting, the rest have been good to okay at best.  Willis is only a year removed from a two man race with Carp for the CY.  I've read about his second half drop offs, did anyone see that last year?  Correct me if I am wrong but didnt Willis have a lower ERA than Carp at one point down the stretch last year and a better record?  Reyes has a chance to be very good, Willis has proven he IS very good.  There have been a lot of good points made today on this topic. He will not be THE MAN in St Louis, he wont be the best player on the team, not even the best pitcher, Duncan and TL wont let the pitch counts get too high and he can learn from Carp.  His out going youth will be a shot in the arm for this team.  I love this trade.  Lets get it done.
Lonedawg I see the ball, I hit the ball.

by Lonedawg on Jul 21, 2006 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On a side note
Dave Pinto posts on Baseball Musings that the Majewski trade is not off to a good start for the Reds.

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/016161.php

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 11:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Key Question
Here is something I'd be very interested in exploring. What are Dontrelle's career stats and 2006 stats against the Mets? I'm thinking 2006 NLCS....Carp/Willis/Mulder vs Pedro/Glavine/???
Pujols For MVP!

by TheFranchise9 on Jul 21, 2006 12:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Willis vs the Mets
2006 - 1-1, 2.95 era, .277 baa in 21.1 ip. Also has 17k, 8bb, 23h for a 2-1k/bb ratio and a 1.45 whip.

2003/2005 - 8-1, 1.85 era, .224 baa in 78 ip and 11 games started. Also has 65k, 17bb (nearly 4/1) and a 1.09 whip.

Pujols For MVP!

by TheFranchise9 on Jul 21, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Willis vs. Mets by Individual Player
vs. David Wright

24 AB .292 BA.370 OBP/.583 SLG/.954 OPS

7 H/2 2B/1 3B/1 HR/6 RBI/ 6 SO

vs. Carolos Beltran

20 AB/.300 BA/.364 OBP/.350 SLG/.714 OPS

6 H/1 2B/0 3B/0 HR/1 BB/3 SO

vs. Carlos Delgado

3 AB/.333 BA/.333 OBP/.333 SLG/.667 OPS

1 H/ 0 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, BB, SO

vs. Jose Reyes

37 AB/.270 BA/.289 OBP/.324 SLG/.614 OPS

10 H/2 2B/0 3B/0 HR/1 RBI/1 BB/3 SO

vs. Cliff Floyd

18 AB/.167 BA/.211 OBP/.167 SLG/.377 OPS

3 H/0 2B, 3B, HR, RBI/1 BB/6 SO

vs. Xavier Nady

14 AB/.143 BA/.200 OBP/.286 SLG/ .486 OPS

2 H/2 2B/0 3B, HR/2 RBI/1 BB/1 SO

vs. Lo Duca

9 AB/.444 BA/.500 OBP/.444 SLG/.944 OPS

4 H/0 2B, 3B, HR/2 RBI/1 BB/0 SO

vs. Valentin

1 AB/ 1 SO

vs. Woodward

18 AB/.167 BA/.286 OBP/.444 SLG/.730 OPS

3 H/2 2B/ 0 3B/ 1 HR/ 1 RBI/3 BB/ 4 SO

vs. Castro

11 AB/.364 BA/.462 OBP/1.091 SLG/1.552 OPS

4 H/2 2B/0 3B/2 HR/2 RBI/2 BB/5 SO

vs. Chavez

10 AB/.300 BA/.300 OBP/.600 SLG/.900 OPS

3 H/1 2B/1 3B/ 0 HR/5 RBI/0 BB/1 SO

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think...
I'm coming around on this trade 2006 - 2007 will be our best shots at a title after that we will have to rebuild for a couple years around Albert and make another run at it.  What we do in the next two years will merely determine how long it takes to rebuild and how steep of a drop off we will have.  I'm leaning towards going for it.  If Weaver "comes around" like most of us thought he could and Mulder comes back healthy.  Our rotation with Willis will be dominant.

I'd say do the deal in  a heartbeat if we can also get Borowski or somehow keep Rasmus out of it.  If not I'd still probably do it.  The LF situation without Duncan won't be too bad.  We can toss J-Rod in there.  Or Larry Bigbie, I think he's doing well during his rehad assignment.  If he comes back to form...watch out.  I'd like to see a World Series sooner rather than later.  Lets go for it.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 21, 2006 12:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Willis
one other thing.  He won't have to carry this team like he has the Marlins.  Or re-energize a franchise like he has somewhat in Miami.  Heck, he'd be the 4th best player probably.  He has to be the leader of the Marlins.  Here he can settle in as the #2 starter with less pressure.  And I think with Willis's personality he'd love St. Louis.  
"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 21, 2006 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think that's part of why I like this
The guy just seems like he's naturally a Cardinal.

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dontrelle's arm will fall off...
Look at the number of innings and also the number of pitches Willis has had the last 3 years:

Yr      IP    NP
2004  197  3127
2005  236  3598
2006  137  2198

If you project his stats out for 2006, he is on pace to pitch approximately 232 innings with 3700 pitches and that's NOT including this year's playoffs or his WBC games. Yikes!!

Also, look at his 2006 pitch count for each game:

120+ pitch games: 3
115+ pitch games: 9
100+ pitch games: 18

I know he's only 24 but man that is a lot of high pitch count games. Can he hold up?

I'm thinking not. I think he'll run out of gas late this year just when we need him. Then an injury later in 2007 or 2008.

I like Willis, I really do. I just think he has been overworked and the odds of injury are high. Giving up all those players is too much for a guy who has been overworked.

by jdubya on Jul 21, 2006 12:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Willis
Hopefully here he wouldn't be as overworked b/c he won't have to carry the team.  He can rest up a little bit for the postseason and be lights out.  Also he seems like a workhorse type pitcher in the Zambrano mold who is unbreakable to me.  I have no evidence to back that, but its just a feeling.
"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 21, 2006 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree witth jdubya
Willis has been overworked and his peripheral numbers are all down.

With the Cards potentially doing this trade for this year's postseason push, Willis likely would not have a chance to rest.  Rather, he would log a lot of innings and then, hopefully, go deep into the postseason.  That's a lot of innings and pitches on an arm that is starting to show the effects of a lot of wear and tear.

Makes me nervous.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jul 21, 2006 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus
Is the guy that I would not want to part with. I think Colby is going to be a great CF in his day and really dont think the Cardianls should part with one of their only bats in the minors. I'd rather see them trade Haether or Hamilton or Green or anyone other than Rasmus in this deal. Other than that I like the deal

by BigMac545 on Jul 21, 2006 12:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldnt do it
as it stands,  I would part with Reyes, but both dunc and rasmus? I think to get a big name youll have to deal Reyes, but I wouldnt do all three and possibly more. Dunc could develop into a good everyday guy. WHo knows with rasmus.

The d-train may be overwortked in Miami, but i think if they got him they could talor that down...TLR usually doesnt ride pitchers too hard unless they are named JMarquis..jk He's def not a baker when it comes to that...

I liked what Bernie said yesterday...it made me think this though..Walt had a poor FA period...but didnt overspend(like for burnett) and could have more cash this year so maybe next year they could be alot better...So dont sell the farm for a maybe

by punchinjudy on Jul 21, 2006 12:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

c'mon
Rasmus hasn't even played AA yet.  We always overvalue our own prospects...we're fans.  There is no guarantee that Rasmus will even make the big leagues - and much less that he'll be a star.  As for Duncan - come on.  He's not a big league starter.  He's just not.  He's not a big thing to part with.  He's a throw in to give him an opportunity, like Gall should have been.  This trade is essentially Rasmus and Reyes for Willis.  

I say pull the trigger.  Then try to deal either Marquis or Suppan to Toronto to dump their salary...if they'll take them.  I know they need rotation help.

by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Elbirdos
ELB you hit on something I thought about at the end of your blog (by the way very good information).  I thought last night while trying to get into Jock's head on this was that the Cardinals will have some major salary relief next season with the impeding defections of Mulder, Edmonds (if buyout is exercised), Suppan, Marquis, So, etal....

With Carpenter and Dontrel at the top of the rotation and Wainwright moving into the rotation the Cards could bring back Suppan or Marquis pick up another pitcher in free agency or look at another of the youngsters that may be ready by next spring.  Still will need a leftfielder and centerfielder (or they keep Edmonds, extension at lower rate?).  Who knows but this trade does not kill the future per se, but place them in a better position long term on the mound.  Indeed this is very interesting if it all goes down.

by TexasCard on Jul 21, 2006 12:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Do the deal
Willis is exactly what we need for the postseason. I know that he has a risk of injury (but maybe less than Reyes), and that we would be paying a lot, but no deal is risk free and the upside over the next couple of years is excellent.

P.S. If we pass on Willis and he goes to another Central Division team, how would we feel? Not good, I'm guessing.

by madridbend on Jul 21, 2006 12:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

PLEASE
DON'T GIVE UP RASMUS!!!

by KeepOnRolen on Jul 21, 2006 12:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why couldn't we do this:
Cardinals give:
Anthony Reyes
Cody Haerther
Chris Duncan
Stuart Pomeranz
Nick Stavinoho (sp)

to the Marlins for:
Dontrelle Willis
Josh Willingham

by KeepOnRolen on Jul 21, 2006 12:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

is willingham in the
OF now or still catching? he came as a cather i thought

by punchinjudy on Jul 21, 2006 1:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The worst part of this deal is that it doesn't get
rid of any of the dead weight (Mulder, Marquis, Suppan).

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 21, 2006 1:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Additional trade
Maybe we could dump one of those fellows on the Yanks for Melky or one of the relievers Joe Torre does not trust? There by dumping two of our dead weight starters on the Yanks (Sir Sidney and ???).

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I"m still not giving up on
Mulder.  Sure it's unlikely but who says he won't come back and be the Mulder he's been in the past??  

Imagine a playoff rotation of:
Carp
A good Mulder
possibly D-Train

I like those odds.  

by stltrav09 on Jul 21, 2006 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

throw in an outfielder and its a good deal
what about getting one of the marlins young outfielders...jerremy hermeda (spelling?) perhaps.  Also it doest seem that over teh past years people have been talking about the cards lack of a solid farm system.  Didnt we draft rasmus with the intent of him taking over for edmonds?  i just think giving up rasmus and reyes is far too much but i think lboros made a great point at how duncan and pomeranz could be replaceable.  if we are giving them this much we have to get something more than just willis

by Dave0585 on Jul 21, 2006 1:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No way
No way the Marlins give up Hermida.

by birdjam on Jul 21, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Willis Marketing
Not sure if anyone's referenced this, but one of the reasons why this deal could get done, aside from what it could do for the team, is Dontrelle's personality and how he would be embraced by the fans. Ownership surely takes into consideration his marketability. Imagine all the D-Train billboards along 40. He'd fill seats, which goes a long way, combined with his relative cheapness.

Also, since getting him would lead to an excess of pitching, they could easily shut him down for a few weeks if they think he's been overworked.

by dayimetmusial on Jul 21, 2006 1:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus
We drafted him just over a year ago.  I think that makes him replaceable.  We will have draft picks galore after Marquis, Suppan, Mulder, and Weaver walk after this year.  We can replace him.  He's good, but I'd rather make a run at a World Series than watch the team crap out in the playoffs again.
"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 21, 2006 1:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

St Louis
never has any trouble filling the seats.  Mostly, we have trouble FINDING seats.  This deal makes me nervous.  Seems like we should hold on to more of our minor-league talent.  

by heart cards on Jul 21, 2006 1:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good Point
I suppose it is more of an on-the-field baseball question.

by dayimetmusial on Jul 21, 2006 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Superficial Question
How sweet would Willis look with the striped tall socks?

by bgh on Jul 21, 2006 1:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I Don't Know...
Didn't have time to mess the rest of the uniform.

by ArachNerd on Jul 21, 2006 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to further
the analogy, Willis is the exotic dream girl, who hints that she could be yours- but you'd have to give up a lot to get her. Poker night, your studio apartment, your dog, your pickup truck... plus you'll have to break sophie's heart to get her, because you can't have them both.

Been there, done that. I'd stick with sophie if I could do it again, even if it hurts my chances to be prom king this year.

by SleepyCA on Jul 21, 2006 1:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Then, there's the effect
of a deal on the clubhouse.  Getting Dontrelle would scream to the other 24 guys on the roster, "WE'RE GOING FOR IT!!!!!"  In a possible NLCS, you'd have Carp vs. Pedro, D-Train vs. Glavine, and Mulder/Marquis/Soup/Weaver vs. Steve Traschel (who scares me not in the least... the Mets have been looking for starting pitching help all year long.)

While I like the way the ball jumps off Duncan's bat, it might be best for his career that he play for a team that doesn't employ his father, and for a team that could let him play 1B.  You can mix-and-match in LF with J-Rod, So, Speez, and possibly Luna.  Great?  Of course not.  But with El Hombre, Rolen, and a resurgent JEd in the middle of the lineup, you don't have to have a great LF bat to win the playoffs.

I repeat what I said yesterday... It's all about the pitching!  I hope this alleged deal goes through... even if it doesn't work!

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 21, 2006 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

With ya, OG
My greatest fear right now is that after all this hoopla, it won't happen. C'mon, Walt--Make it so!

by rockin redbird on Jul 21, 2006 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

another note on
Rasmus - he's our best prospect, but I don't think he'd be the top prospect in any other organization.  

We have to go for it while Albert is still el hombre.

by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our best prospect?
Prospect assessment is far from an exact science. If I recall correctly, Albert wasn't our best prospect at any point in his brief minor league career.

I like what I know of Rasmus, and I hope he develops, but Willis is a proven major talent at the highest level, and we should get him if we can.

by madridbend on Jul 21, 2006 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be honest,
I think it is all hoopla. If it goes through, I'll be shocked.

by cardsrul on Jul 21, 2006 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Starting to come around on this
trade.  Initially, my reaction was "too much!"  But after reading LB's great analysis and all the comments here and in the poll diary I'm starting to like the idea more.  I would hate to give up Reyes, Rasmus and Duncan but, realistically, we are swapping Reyes for Willis.  Duncan has been doing better lately, but he has looked way overmatched several times this season.  Chances are at least 50/50 that he would again in the post season.  Rasmus, well, lots of potential, but we really won't know what we have with him for three or four more years.  And, as others have said, there will be other CF candidates in next year's draft.

One thought occurred to me.  I think that this move would mean one of two things:  1) the Cards are planning, currently at least, to pick up Edmond's option (or restructure and extend), or 2) another deal is in the works for an OF ('though it wouldn't be a top-name guy like Abreu, et al)

Unless, of course, they've already penciled in Bigbie's triumphant return! <grin>

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 21, 2006 2:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hmmm....
I think the Marlins need to throw somebody else in. A relief pitcher, young outfielder, even a prospect. Whether or not he's Dontrelle Willis, we need to get more out of this if at all possible.

by matt reeder on Jul 21, 2006 2:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Marquis in playoffs?
Quoting Lboros on Reyes "....[B]ut there's no guarantee he'll even be in the rotation come october; if mulder comes back and is able to pitch, i'm guessing tony/dunc choose carp mulder marquis + suppan as the four postseason starters."

Marquis pitching in the playoffs?  Lord help us.  

I thought pretty highly of Marquis last year after his strong finish in the regular season, and might have picked starting him over Matt Morris in the playoffs.  But I can't imagine Marquis this year in the playoffs.  His regular season games feel like Rick Ankiel playoff games.  What will the added pressure of a playoff game do to Marquis?

This is a roundabout way of saying that Reyes has to be a safer bet in the playoffs than Marquis, with more upside for a spectacular game.  

I'm not sure how I feel about Reyes vs. Willis.  I sure like Reyes's salary for the next 3-4 years.  If their performances are going to be at all comparable in that timeframe, it seems like a no brainer to hang on to Reyes for budget reasons.

by ncgostl on Jul 21, 2006 2:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lboros
Why is it a fact?  Isn't this just from a message board post that was allegedly Colby's dad?  How do we know it's Colby's dad?  And why give him so much credibility anyway?

by Toddius396 on Jul 21, 2006 2:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bernie verified it
for all the guy's faults, he's usually pretty accurate with what he says

by Valatan on Jul 21, 2006 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dumb question but
How many years, if any, does Dontrelle have left on his contract?  The only way this deal is worth it is if we can lock him up.  

Also, if we trade Duncan (who I'm becomming a fan of more and more each day), now we need to go out and get a LF.  The platoon just won't cut it come playoff time.  

again.. im new here so please take it easy

by stltrav09 on Jul 21, 2006 3:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Two more arb years after this
and he makes 4.35 this year. So he would be looking at what, maybe 7.5 and then 9.5 in arbitration the next two years? Just a guess, any arb experts in the house?

by mikedallas23 on Jul 21, 2006 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes or Wainwright?
If the redbirds were to make a BIG trade but had to give up one of the following players, who would you rather give up?

I'm a big fan of both guys but I'd rather have Wainwright than Reyes.  

by stltrav09 on Jul 21, 2006 3:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting...
Might have something to do with this rumor, might not.  However, Reyes's next start date was supposed to be on Saturday vs the Dodgers, and it's been pushed back to Monday vs the Rockies (this info per 590 the fan, they heard it from TLR). D-Trains next start is Sunday (Marlins have monday off).
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 21, 2006 3:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope not...
I spent a lot of money on tickets for saturday, mainly so I could see him pitch :(

by SleepyCA on Jul 21, 2006 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya
I'm gonna be at Saturdays game too.

by FunkeeC on Jul 21, 2006 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FunkeeC
Will FunkeeDo be accompanying you to the game?

by 26thMan on Jul 21, 2006 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha
No, unless my wife lets me refer to her as that =P

by FunkeeC on Jul 21, 2006 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jon Jay
Seems to me he is on the fast track to the show.  Could he be the replacement for Rasmus?  He has been putting up fairly good numbers so far, so maybe his presence makes Rasmus expendable.

I am starting to like the possibility of Dontrell in Cardinal Red.

by TexasCard on Jul 21, 2006 3:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Psychological impact?
As nearly everyone has noted, this is certainly a tough call - go for Dontrelle or sit tight?  We'd certainly be giving up a lot - but we'd also be sending a clear signal to our guys and the rest of the league that we're serious about winning NOW.  I think the other teams would hate to see us get Dontrelle.  Check out this comment from the Brewers blog noted on the VEB site (www.brewcrewball.com):

"With the Brewers in pennant-race limbo and with yesterday's off-day, there isn't much going on today. A few things of interest:

The Cards are after Dontrelle...and it sounds pretty serious. That would certainly put the Central out of reach, which is probably is already."

There's obviously no stats to evaluate or predict this but it's clearly worth considering.  I say go for it with the psychological angle being the tiebreaker for me.  Think about it this way:  how would we feel if our closest competitor traded for Dontrelle?

by wildman on Jul 21, 2006 3:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

if they were to trade AW or Reyes
i'd trade reyes...AW has had a bit of a bumpier ride, but now looks solid...I still dont see it with reyes. Hes good, but I guess all the drooling over him soured me.

Similar to Aw..he was the big part of the Drew trade from waht everyone said. He was hurt, then made a jump from a to AAA and sucked for a bit if i remeber right.

Im not familiar wiht reyes as much other than this board and the TLR bashers cause reyes took so long to get into the rotation

by punchinjudy on Jul 21, 2006 4:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

From the Agent
{I e-mailed Dontrelle's agent Matt Sosnick... profiled in the book "Licensed to Deal"... asking for his thoughts on the trade rumor.

Here's his reply... and he later added "Please make it very clear that it's only my opinion."}

Matt,

I don't believe that Dontrelle will be traded before the deadline.  Based on a Marlin's strategy that seems to be focused around hoarding talented, pre-arbitration players, particularly pitching.  Larry Beinfest has done an amazing job getting prospects for high priced veterans, and Dontrelle seems to be not only the face of the Marlins, but a number one starter for  many years.  If the team is to get a new stadium, or to realize full worth in another city, trading any of the young stars

Dontrelle does have a warm relationship with Tony, as he has participated in ARF fundraisers
in Northern California.  Contrary to opinions before the year began, I imagine that the Marlin's ownership feels much closer to winning than they did in spring training.  Once they sign a stadium deal, in South Florida or in another city, I would imagine that the owner would be willing to invest heavily in free agents, as has been his pattern in the past.  Theoretically, that would make the Marlins instant pennant contenders.  

Warmly,
Matt Sosnick

by Matt on Jul 21, 2006 4:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Brian Walton is now saying
that it likely won't happen, and that the Dodgers couldn't even pull him away.

As for Anthony Reyes, I don't understand why everyone has started to turn away from him. Because he hasn't repeated his performance against the White Sox? That's the flipside to putting on such a dominating performance, that if you don't repeat it, everyone will hate you.

For peace of mind, just remember that he is 24 and a rookie. He's going to make mistakes, but I'm thinking he'll learn. Rafael Furcal, Ken Lofton, Just Disabled and Jeff Kent are professional hitters, and Reyes did them in.

by ryanisforever on Jul 21, 2006 4:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

walton is not
a very credible source

by lboros on Jul 21, 2006 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not suggesting
that the trade will happen, by the way. i'm just saying i need to hear it from someone more credible than walton before i believe it

by lboros on Jul 21, 2006 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still a newbie
Sorry, Larry, but who is Brian Walton and why is not credible (as opposed to "incredible")?

And thank you very much for the link today; you've basically quadrupled my traffic. :-)

by 26thMan on Jul 21, 2006 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Walton
is one of the guys that runs The Birdhouse, a very solid news & commentary site over at stlcardinals.scout.com.

by Solanus on Jul 22, 2006 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

here's my beef w walton
kind of a long setup, but here goes.

he has made two very high-profile errors in reporting -- in the winter of 2004 he reported, as fact, that the cardinals had re-signed edgar renteria, and then he repeated the error last winter by reporting, as fact, that the cards had signed a.j. burnett. in both cases, the same day of his erroneous report, the player signed elsewhere.

at the time of the burnett thing, a lot of people jumped all over brian. i defended him. i felt as if people were acting like it was somehow walton's fault that burnett had signed somewhere else, which is ridiculous. i also felt people were unfairly ascribing bad intentions to walton.

so i'm more than slightly annoyed with the commentary walton wrote yesterday about the dontrelle trade talks --- that's what started this little chain of comments. in that piece walton was very condescending toward mlbtraderumors.com, a site that has been very helpful to me and that takes a lot of unfair flak --- just like walton did at the time of aj. walton made a lot of unfair (and untrue) assumptions about traderumors' actions and intentions, and it ticked me off. brian, of all people, ought to know how events can make you look like a liar, even when you're telling the truth.

but what really ticked me off is that brian didn't send an e-mail to traderumors --- or to bernie, who also was in the middle of all the dontrelle stuff -- and educate himself about the provenance of that information. i sent e-mails to both of em, plus a couple of other contacts, and sized up the situation before i wrote anything.

if walton had done the same, he wouldn't have written what he did. and he shouldn't have written it -- hence my dismissive comment

by lboros on Jul 22, 2006 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
anybody is "turning away" or hating Reyes. It's just that he's a young, unproven player and Willis is a young, proven player. Whatever Reyes turns out to be--"ace" or no--this all has to do with what people want for the Birds right now, not a couple years down the road. I wish nothing but the best for him, but if he's the chip we need to get Willis--bye bye Tony. If he's got major-league stuff (and he obviously does), this is something he'll have to deal with the rest of his life. It's just business, perhaps "bad business" in your view, but business nonetheless.

by rockin redbird on Jul 21, 2006 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN
is it just me or has anyone else had problems with their website the last few days? any other site i go to fine, but ESPN wont work or is real slow...

2. I tried not to get to hyped over a "rumor" thats what they are unitl its done...rumors

by punchinjudy on Jul 21, 2006 4:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

eh
"As reported by The Post last week, the Mets are interested in Bobby Abreu. However, Lastings Milledge would not be moved as part of any trade for the Philly right fielder. Those close to GM Omar Minaya say the only person Milledge would be traded for right now is Dontrelle Willis, but he is not currently available."

http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/delgado_blasts_way_out_of_his_home_run_slump_mets_mark_hale.htm

If Marlins don't want Milledge for Willis, I don't think we can get him.

by SirVLCIV on Jul 21, 2006 4:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope it's not dead,
The future is now and next year. Beyond that is going to be a major crapshoot with all the ageing players the Cards have. Rasmus is at least three years away and Reyes although cheaper than Dontrelle has more injury issues and a lower cieling. Duncan even though he has performed is unlikely to keep it up. I am all for this deal.

by Birdsfanstuckinohio on Jul 21, 2006 4:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

NO Reyes Sat?
Who are they pitching on Sat then??

I am going to all 3 games this week-end...

I probably think about this stuff too much......

by cardsnutincali on Jul 21, 2006 4:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll believe it
when I see it...at this point I wonder if they will do anything at all. but there are 10 days left

by punchinjudy on Jul 21, 2006 5:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, logic says
If they are planning to bump Reyes from Sat to Monday...then they bump Weaver up and he goes on 4 days rest, then they pitch Marquis Sunday?  Maybe TLR is trying to set himself up for a better showing at Wrigley next week?
I probably think about this stuff too much......

by cardsnutincali on Jul 21, 2006 5:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A few comments
I actually like this trade because I would love to see D-Train wearing the Birds on the Bat.  It just seems like it fits to me.  However, I really really feel that this is all just wishful thinking and rumors, and nothing will surface.  We heard a couple of years ago that the D-Backs were possibly going to trade the Unit to us.  Did it happen?  No.  Other big name guys have been mentioned but nothing came of it.  So I would be extremely surprised to see it happen.

Also, (this may sound like a dumb juvenile question) would Dave Duncan being the pitching coach have any sort of negative effects on the trade (i. e., would he tell Walt not to trade his son or something like that)?

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Jul 21, 2006 9:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Stl_ia_card_45_-_dark_small
Jeff Pearlman Thinks Of Hair Clumps When He Thinks Of The Thief McGwire
Black-spider-monkey_small
Losing my religion (w/ baseball)

Recent FanPosts

Small
Can someone explain to me...
Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..
Cathybachebay1_small
The current Busine$$ of Baseball...how long can it last?
Avatar_small
VEB CheBird T-Shirt for Sale - Red or Powder Blue, CLEARANCE

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Trigun_001_small the red baron