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Birdos_avatar_tiny by lboros on in St. Louis Cardinals News

i don't think kenny rogers' cheating is the main reason the cardinals lost. he only had that foreign substance on his hand for one inning; he pitched the last seven with no evident enhancements and held the cardinals to one base hit in that time. indeed, the cards' best threat against rogers came in the only inning in which we know he had the means to load the ball up. it may be alleged that he continued to load it up after the 1st inning, and that he simply stashed the slop elsewhere (back of the hat; inside the glove); but that can't be proven. the simpler explanation is that he suffocated the cardinals for the same reason tom glavine did in game 1 of the nlcs, and darren oliver did in game 3, and oliver perez did in game 7, and the likes of scott mathieson and carlos villanueva did in the regular season: he's left-handed. he didn't have to cheat. i think he beat the cards on the merits.

having said that, he could and should have been ejected from the game. erik posted the pertinent rule in the overflow thread last night:

Rule 8.02
The pitcher shall not --
(b) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section, the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically for 10 games.
this rule has been applied in the postseason before -- game 3 of the 1988 nlcs, when dodger closer jay howell was found to have pine tar on his glove while on the mound. that last phrase -- "while on the mound" -- is the key: the umps would have to find the incriminating evidence while the pitcher was on the mound. la russa didn't ask for an inspection while rogers was still on the mound in the top of the first, for reasons unclear; matt leach has a pretty good summary of how things unfolded. it's possible tony wasn't sure rogers was loading up until after rogers had left the diamond at the end of the first; it's also possible that la russa considered it more sportsmanlike -- and less embarrassing to jim leyland -- not to force rogers from the game but rather to make him pitch it unassisted. maybe he preferred challenging his players to hold rogers accountable themselves -- remove the pitcher's illicit advantage and beat him in a fair fight -- over tattle-taleing to the umpires and introducing a sideshow element into the proceedings. we'll never know, because la russa refused to discuss the matter at all in the postgame interview room. but read between the lines of leach's article: la russa "didn't want to discuss it, lest he come off as a sore loser." if discussing the matter would have made him look like a sore loser, i guess tony was sore about it.

i can accept that rogers beat the cardinals fair and square after the 1st inning. but i also believe cheaters don't belong on the field during the world series, period. rogers only got the opportunity to compete after an unnecessarily indulgent, lenient response to behavior that ought to be met with zero tolerance. when you know a guy is corking his bat, you don't just send him back to the rack for another stick; you kick him out of the game. major-league baseball already has a big image problem vis-vis banned substances and illegal enhancements; last night's events didn't raise anybody's confidence that the sport can enforce deterrence and curtail cheating among its players.

the controversy doesn't work in the cardinals' favor. they'll be asked about this ad nauseum between now and game 3, a regrettable distraction. our boys are gonna have to find a way to stop thinking about kenny rogers and spend their energy on making adjustments at the plate; they face another very capable left-hander, nate robertson, tuesday night.

jim leyland handed the cardinals a gift by sending todd jones to the mound in the 9th inning to close things out. true to form, jones -- the tigers' answer to jason isringhausen, v2006 -- made it a game, putting the go-ahead run on base with 2 outs in the 9th. at that point la russa returned the favor, allowing yadi molina to bat for himself with the game on the line. call me an ingrate: the kid's pennant-winning homer doesn't change the fact that he is a terrible hitter, one of the worst in the major leagues. both duncan and j-rod were available on the bench, and both hit about 100 points higher against right-handed pitchers this season than molina did. 100 points, when a simple base hit would have tied the game. i've praised la russa up and down this postseason for his adaptability, his liberation from old bad habits; he fell into one of those habits last night, making a totally illogical decision that apparently was based on irrelvant factors -- ie, molina hit a big homer three days ago. a few people in the game thread defended the decision on the grounds that molina is riding a hot hand, but that's not even true; yadi came into that at-bat with 4 hits in his last 17 trips (a .235 average). if he'd been 9 for his last 17, i might buy the hot-hand theory; but ultimately you want your best hitters out there with the game on the line, and molina is not one of the cardinals' best hitters. he's a #8 hitter -- the type of hitter you pinch-hit for in a big situation.

it really was a straightforward decision, and la russa blew it; molina hacked at the first strike thrown to him -- a pitcher's pitch, sinker down and in -- and got himself out.

i also wonder who would have pitched if molina (or a pinch-hitter) had, indeed, tied the game and sent it into extra innings. la russa had emptied the bullpen, using all his best relievers in low-leverage situations; he could have kept wainwright out there for another inning, maybe even 2, but leyland had fernando rodney and joel zumaya both fresh. we might well have seen the shell-shocked josh hancock on the mound in a tie game or save situation. . . . .

it was easily tony's worst-managed game of the month. i'm not blaming him for the loss, but he didn't give the team its best chance to win -- ie, he didn't do his job.

i take encouragement from two things: the cardinal pitchers continue to get it done -- 5 runs in the first two world series games -- and rolen continues to swing the bat well (2 more hits last night). they'll play the next two games at home behind their two best pitchers, and in game 5 they'll get another crack at verlander, who hasn't pitched well since july. and they still hold trump for game 7 --- carpenter. so last night's loss doesn't weaken their position substantially.

p.s.: i want to commend everybody for their interactions last night with muldster, the tiger fan who showed up in the postgame thread. he was hoping to make trouble, and not a single person took the bait --- our community made very strong responses to the guy, and did it without hostility or disrespect. excellent showing.

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Intersting Take
on the job by LaRussa. While I was perplexed by the bullpen usage, it wasn't horrible.

As for Molina, I don't disagree that perhaps he should have been pinch-hit for, but I also thought that througout last nights game, Yadi had some of the better AB's against Rodgers, trying to take him the other way in his second and thrid AB's of the night, something few other Cardinal hitters even attempted. Maybe you pinch hit for Yadi, but I would have to say the pinch hitting opertunity was for Preston Wilson. While Wilson got on with a HBP, that was more luck than skill and if you want to jump on LaRussa for botching a pinch hitting opertunity, then the opertunity was with Preston Wilson. I thought Duncan would have been a good choice there, since he has much better plate disciplin than Wilson.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2006 9:23 AM EDT reply actions  

why not pinch-hit both
j-rod for one, duncan for the other. i mean, hell -- you're facing a right-handed pitcher; you've got a so-so right-handed batter up, followed by a terrible right-handed batter, and you've got two very good left-handed hitters sitting on the bench . . . . .

what's to discuss?

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not much
both would have been fine pinch hitting choices, but neither were used and I don't know why. I would say I feel more confidant in Molina doing something postive in that situation (largely because of game 7 and his good AB's against Rodgers)than Wilson.

On a side note, if you want question LaRussa, a good place to start is why Juan was hitting in the 5 hole. Even if a lefty is on the mound, I say you leave Rolen, Albert, and Edmonds together. I mean Rolen and Edmonds weren't horrible last night. Juan had no clue.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2006 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, and anyone
who has a) watched Juan hit all year, and b) seen how Rogers has been pitching this postseason, would know that Juan would be helpless out there.  Why he was in the lineup at all is a mystery.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 23, 2006 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

His glove
we need his glove.
The '06 Cardinals- The New '73 Mets? (Sorry, but I have to be real about our chances)

by Zubin on Oct 23, 2006 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The glove...
that misplayed a double into a triple by letting the ball rattle around in the corner?

I saw him bobble a couple of line drives that rolled to him, too.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, the triples
plus the bobble that didn't hurt us on Sean Casey's hit.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clueless indeed
Can't help but feel TLR was equally clueless by batting him No. 5. Has he not been watching the same JuanE all October (let alone all season)? It was a classic case of TLR going with the book that says JuanE hits over .300 vs. LHPs and has the potential to do something when it seems most of the people on this forum know it's more of a probability that JuanE will do nothing and be an inning killer. And don't even get me started on why he's playing for his so-called "defense." I'll take Taguchi, Spiezio, Wilson and Duncan before I'd ever play JuanE, even vs. the lefties during this WS.  
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, and remember
how we always heard about how Roger Cedeno owned Roger Clemens?  Seems like Cedeno's history against Clemens didn't mean much down the stretch and in the recent playoffs, when Clemens did the owning.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 23, 2006 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defense for Molina, not Preston
Free swinging PW I agree with, Molina I do not. The fact was we were down by 2 runs. A base hit only ties the game. If we had only tied the game in the 9th, I would not like Gary Bennett behind the plate. Plus bringing in every reliever might have screwed us further because if we had tied the game, we didn't have anyone left (LOOGYS/Wainwright in particular) to hold a lead. (Hancock and Looper were the only ones left) I don't think Molina was the only "bad" decision made that night. Suppose we brought in Dunc and he got that base hit, then we got 2 pitchers to hold down a fort until we score again throwing at Gary Bennet. But who knows cause thay lost...
I'm just here for the Bud Light...

by OKCardsfan on Oct 23, 2006 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Todd Jones
Jones has a sizeable reverse platoon-split. I'd've gone to Taguchi before Dunc or Rodriguez.

by liam on Oct 23, 2006 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone please hide Wilson's uniform
I'm with you, JMed. To me the real mystery was why TLR didn't hit Duncan for Wilson, he of the steadily declining postseason OPS (now at .467) and 0-for-5 career numbers against Jones. Molina, by contrast, has an .862 OPS in the postseason.

And while I agree, Larry, that there's no reason both couldn't have been hit for, LaRussa's strange devotion to Wilson looms as the manager's biggest postseason foible this year. Wilson was bad with Houston, was bad with St.Louis in the stretch and is now awful in the postseason.

By the way, I'd guess the explanation for the non-moves is that Jones is actually slightly tougher on lefthanders than on righthanders.

by DCGreg on Oct 23, 2006 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

it wasn't a choice
between molina or wilson; it was a choice between molina or duncan/rodriguez. i don't disagree with the argument that wilson should also have been PH for, but the two decisions are totally unrelated.

just looking at the options tony had --- molina, duncan, j-rod --- would anybody really rank molina #1 on that list?

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree with you
looking at the Molina decision in isolation, I probably would have gone with Duncan. But to me that was a closer call. You say Molina was 4 for his last 17, but I'll re-interpret the numbers and say he was 4 for his last 11 and 14 for 43 in the postseason. "Hot hand" may be too strong, but you gotta give him "swinging the bat pretty well." Throw in Jones' R-L splits, and I see the decision there as being much tougher than you do.

The Wilson decision, by contrast, wasn't a close one.

Finally, the two decisions aren't completely unrelated, since DCGreg The Manager would have hit Duncan for Wilson, leaving a potential choice of Molina vs. J-Rod for the next at-bat.

by DCGreg on Oct 23, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wilson
Besides the fact that i do not think wilson should ever be allowed to hit, i can kida sorta see letting him hit again Jones because Jones keeps the ball down around 90-92 and Wilson hits the ball down a lot better then those high pitches he always sings at...that being said i would still rather have Duncan hit there...or Vizcaino for that matter (I know he isnt on the roster)
"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Oct 23, 2006 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Molina or Duncan
Duncan I can see pinch hitting for Molina there although i would hate to see Bennett back there defensivly...JRod i dont think is a good match up with TJones, JRod hits the hard straight stuff well but little else and TJones does not have that I like Yadi over JRod in that instance especailly with his atbats last nights and not coming in cold off the bench...
"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Oct 23, 2006 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, yes
Going with the hot hand is huge. I know it's a risk you have to be willing to take, but when haven't we seen Duncan swinging at a first pitch too, and I love J-Rod, but what has he done for us these playoffs. Molina may be the number eight hitter, but he's also done well with RISP all season long. Not to mention, his postseason has been outstanding. In playing baseball having the hot hand is key, it makes you feel so much more confident, and you usually hit the ball better as a result of that. Look at Gary Bennett before he got hurt. What is number eight but a number? Do you really believe that Yadi is our 2nd to worst hitter right now? I'd understand your argument for a pinch hit if we had Pujols or Rolen on the bench, but instead doesn't this seem a lot like the controversy we had in here during that Cubs series where LaRussa plugged in a pinch hitter for Chris Duncan when HE was the hot hand. I mean, hind sight is 20/20, I'm sure if we had lost game seven, several people would be looking back and saying "Oh, we should've pinch hit for Molina."

I agree, though, about Wilson, he's been hurting us big time at the plate. I don't think we need to think about pinch hitting for him, but maybe just starting someone else instead.

Acquire Barry Zito!

by aet15 on Oct 23, 2006 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't believe
that players' abilities fluctuate that much from game to game. they fluctuate some --- no doubt. but when a .216 hitter has gone 10 for his last 30, that doesn't mean he has the abilities of a .333 hitter.

and --- to reiterate an important point --- molina really isn't a hot hitter. he's had four base hits in the last 6 games. one of those hits was very important, yes; but i think some of you are placing far too much emphasis on that one important hit, and too little on his baseline hitting ability (or lack thereof).

agree to disagree.

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

one other thing
as recently as three games ago, a majority of the posters on this board wanted scott rolen to be benched for the entire remainder of the postseason. but he made some adjustments and regressed (or, in his case, progressed) to the mean --- he's now a key to the cards fortunes again, as he rightly should be.

he was perceived, inaccurately as having the abilities of a .180 hitter; his true ability was always there under the surface. likewise, molina is now perceived as having the abilities of a .300 hitter . . . . .

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I couldn't agree more
on the point about Rolen.  I had a hard time believing that people were saying that.  I don't think he should have sat a single game - he's still Scott Rolen, and Enc and Wilson have been in this lineup quite a bit.

Molina, however, has at least taken good at bats recently.  He's looked to go the other way, and rarely strikes out, even during the season.  Maybe you want a guy who can put the ball in play against Jones.  I would have pinch hit with Duncan, but JRod hasn't batted at all this post season to my knowledge.  I don't think you send him up there over Molina.

by Toddius396 on Oct 23, 2006 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with the others on this
Tony was presented with the same choice for Wilson as he was for Molina.  The real mistake was letting Wilson take a bat to the plate.  Molina on the night had at the very least shown signs of life, even against a tough lefty.  Wilson and Encarnacion had not and both batted in that inning while Duncan, Rodriguez and Taguchi sat on the bench.

I'd have more of a problem with Wilson and Encarnacion batting than Molina.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree on WHO to pinch-hit for
I was more upset that TLR didn't lift JuanE for Duncan or J-Rod vs. the right-hander and was equally perplexed why Wilson was allowed to bat. I have had more confidence that Molina can come through with a hit during the post-season than JuanE or Wilson--especially vs. RHPs. What has either of them shown that indicates they are not terrible hitters this October? At least the odds are more favorable that Duncan can send one over the fence vs. a RHP than either JuanE or Wilson.

I do agree it was easily LaRussa's worst-managed game of the month. However, I felt this poor effort began with his lineup card. I felt from the start there were too many likely automatic outs at No. 5 and No. 7 and Spiezio's proven run-producing capabilites neutralized batting No. 2. He keeps waiting for JuanE or Wilson to "break out" and it ain't happen'n. I sure would have rather had Spiezio batting with men on base over JuanE last night and Taguchi up in that No. 2 spot trying to make something happen in front of Pujols, Rolen, Spiezio and Edmonds. JuanE, Wilson, Molina, Miles and Eckstein? Just a whole lot of nothing happening there, although I was optimistic Miles or Eckstein would get on base somehow.

Will be interesting to see if TLR moves both Spiezio and JuanE down in the order Tuesday vs. the left-hander. I just think the top of the lineup featuring Eckstein, Taguchi, Pujols, Rolen, Spiezio and Edmonds is the way to go, and I'd even be tempted to bat Molina ahead of JuanE and/or Wilson given the fact Molina has done something in October and the other two zilch. Having Carpenter and Suppan next is great, but still have to manufactur runs for them and can't count on the home run ball to do that.      

Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with this post and yours above...
...I think TLR did not put our best line-up on the field last night. It contained 9 automatic outs, Enc, Wilson and Miles and I haven't discussed Yadi and Eck. To me the three times through presented 15 sure outs and that only leaves 12 (not to mention that if the other 4 do anything these 5 get additional ABs). The 9th inning was a complete TLR meltdown. Enc should never have batted--we were very lucky. Wilson should have never batted--we were very lucky. Yadi should never have batted--we lost.

I've not even touched on the Rogers "dirt" incident, but that's all on TLR too. MLB shouldn't do anything. If Rogers broke a rule, we'll never know, because TLR absolutely broke the rule which requires him to request an inspection. For whatever reasons he didn't want to.That's fine, he's probably right.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Oct 23, 2006 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting stuff.
on the left is the ALCS game, on the right was the WS game.

by Mike Sweeney on Oct 23, 2006 9:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Looks like a big piece of dirt...
...with pine tar on his pitching hand... :-)
"He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."

by iron duke75 on Oct 23, 2006 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really think...
...that it is cameraman residue.

by birdjam on Oct 23, 2006 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carp's first WS start
I have a feeling he is gonna be extraordinarily bad-ass tomorrow night....
"He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."

by iron duke75 on Oct 23, 2006 9:27 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree
He's had an extra day of rest, and only threw 76 pitches his last time out.  I know that Tony and Duncan go to graeat pains to keep him on regular rest, but I think he's been tired lately - I look for a great game out of him.  In fact, I like the pitching match-ups for the Cardinals in the next 3 games, assuming they can score off of the left hander in Game 3.

by Robb on Oct 23, 2006 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

at least
we have our best pitcher (pine tar free) going on tuesday.

by tnek5 on Oct 23, 2006 9:27 AM EDT reply actions  

yes indeed
Carp is perfectly legal
Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

are we sure about this
i wouldn't doubt that some of our pitchers have a few techniques for improving grip. i'm also thinking that could have something to do with tony's motivations.
Evident The Wash.

by brock on Oct 23, 2006 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although I have heard
That there is pending legislation in at least 17 states to have his filthy stuff outlawed.
Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Oct 24, 2006 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
100% with that post. Lets hope this inspires our boys to go out there and kick some ass in the Lou.  And that being said, a new limerick for the poets in the house:

At 1-1 the series shifts to the Lou,
With Carp and Soups pitching the next two,
They'll give it their best,
Lets hope they're up to the test,
And send the Tigers back home feeling blue.

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 9:27 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree, the only justice we
are going to receive from the situation is to go out and win the series.  We can (and I sure most will) argue about Kenny "cheater" Rogers, but MLB is not going to do anything about it.  His statements and the video evidence proves him guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Let's just outplay them and not worry about things we can't control.  Go Cards!!  

by lefty fan on Oct 23, 2006 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

MLB won't do anything about what
has already happened, but I'm sure they'll take steps to ensure no repeat of last night's events.  Expect the head office to have a discreet conversation with the Tigers' front office, manager, and perhaps Rogers himself.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 23, 2006 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

question
is it possible for mlb to review the situation post-game and then, after finding enough evidence, suspend rogers?  or does the decision have to be made at the time it happens?  i'd be interested to know.  don't know if there is a "statute of limitations" on this thing as far as mlb rulings are concerned.  or maybe - in nfl parlance - after the next play has been made, the ruling not cable of being reviewed.  just curious.

i think it's pretty obvious that he was doing something illegal.  there's conclusive video evidence.  and dirt on his hand?  how does a clump of dirt stay on your hand without something holding it there?  

he washed it off?  he could have wiped the majority of it off and left a little on there.  just a little pine tar is all you need.

the bitch of it is that all of these questions will probably never be answered.  why?  it's my contention that tlr, out of respect for leyland, didn't want to make a big deal out of it.  i think his friendship got in the way of his gamesmanship.  had it been dusty baker in the other dugout, i think tlr would have been up the umps asses, demanding an answer to every single question at the very instant it happened.  i think he gave rogers a "pass" because his buddy was in the other dugout and he didn't want to give the appearance that he was "showing up" leyland.  

also, one final question.  IF rogers had been found to have pine tar and IF he had been kicked out of the game and suspended on the spot, wouldn't leyland have been ejected as well?  i thought that was the case.  i could be wrong on that one though.

by busch league on Oct 23, 2006 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

one more thing...
...just for clarity purposes, i DO NOT think this is reason we lost the game.  we had opportunities to score.  we hit the ball hard a few times (pujo especially).  we just didn't get the breaks. and we had a big-time opportunity in the 9th which we promptly squandered.

and for the record, i'd have pinch it for pw, but i was fine with molina hitting right there.  

by busch league on Oct 23, 2006 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

or TLR could have said
"Good God we don't hit lefties" to himself.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

you captured
my sentiments exactly. I'm frustrated about all this on several levels.

But I'm just going to go to the game tomorrow night and root a little harder for the birds on the bat now.

by sirensofsilence on Oct 23, 2006 9:33 AM EDT reply actions  

The Season of Frustration...
...so why should it change now? Yet despite all the frustration on so many levels, amazingly the Cards are three wins away from being World Series Champions. I like the attitude of "sirens." Here's rooting for Carp & Suppan to silence the Tigers roar at the plate and a Cardinal lineup to produce some winning runs in front of the home folk!  
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thinking out loud ...
this is all I'm going to say about this "controversy" ...

IF he was loading up with pinetar (on his hand/bill of cap/where ever), and using it on the ball, wouldn't it be NOTICEABLE ON THE BALL?

That stuff is like superglue, it's not transparent, and should be evident on the ball. I'm sure Molina would be on the lookout.

???

by Urban Pawnee on Oct 23, 2006 9:34 AM EDT reply actions  

They switch balls often
and someone in the other thread said that Pudge was throwing quite a few of them out of play...
"He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."

by iron duke75 on Oct 23, 2006 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe this was what
Molina was talking to him about at the plate?  What inning were they talking, I can't remember.

Oh well.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I saw something
I noticed a pictured on ESPN when Rogers was pitching.  There was something on the ball which was the same color as the stuff on his hand.  It almost seemed to obvious.  
Lonedawg I see the ball, I hit the ball.

by Lonedawg on Oct 23, 2006 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Was it this one maybe?
"He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."

by iron duke75 on Oct 23, 2006 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep
Clearly visible on the ball in that photo.  Also, it doesn't look like it's completely gone on the picture on the left, just kinda rubbed in maybe.  That is the most discolored dirt I've ever seen.  Not making any accusations, it's just a little fishy.
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Oct 23, 2006 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

That should be
it's not completely gone on the picture on the right
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Oct 23, 2006 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

pure speculation
Could it be the real reason LaRussa didn't challenge Rogers to a mound confrontation with out knowing 100% he was cheating was because Leyland knows too much about the Cardinals?  I know he doesn't want the shit-stirrer label and doesn't want to ruin a friendship, but there could very well be things Leyland knows from being in the organization that he could retaliate with.  I am not calling anyone a cheater, I'm just saying there are tricks of the trade and techniques on every ballclub, and Leyland would then be pressed into a mud-slinging campaign to protect his players.  We have got enough of that crap in the political commercials that bombard us every day.

But wow, I have never seen a clump of dirt that shiny and sticky looking.  Does anyone actually believe that wasn't pine tar?

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Oct 23, 2006 9:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes
My thoughts exactly.  If LaRussa got Rogers ejected, Leyland could potentially retaliate intelligently, having worked in the organization within the last 7 months, plus talking to Tony non-stop.  

by Robb on Oct 23, 2006 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Weaver's performance
Wanted to say I thought Weaver pitched a decent game last night, not great but decent.  He kept us in the game.

Pitcher Report Card

Pitcher Postgame Report

His only real problem was when they did hit it, they hit it hard.

by Just Rope Ball on Oct 23, 2006 10:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Well
There is nothing to be done. The guy was cheating; it's obvious. But he was allowed to continue and that's that. Did he pitch the next seven without illegal assistance? Should he be praised if he did? If a card player hides an ace up his sleeve, does it make him less of a cheater because he actually got good hands and never had to use the hidden ace? Whether he washed the stuff off or moved it doesn't matter now because nothing was proven. The suspicion, though--there's the problem with cheating. Once a cheater, always a cheater. The solace we can take is that Rogers "historic postseason run" will now be forever tainted...by his own actions. We're gonna have to be satisfied with that because it's all we're gonna get. Move on, beat the crap outta them at Busch, and bring the trophy home to St.Lou. GO GET EM BIRDS!!!

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Excellent comment...
...especially the last five sentences!
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lboros, I disagree...
..about Molina. OK, maybe he was 4 for his last 17, but lets not forget that he had one of two hits last night AND two of his outs were hard hit balls, one of which would have been a HR in busch (the other, a liner to right). He IS a hot hand right now. I would've pinch hit for Wilson before Molina.

This guy has been clutch all postseason long. He deserved the right the be out there w/ the game on the line last night. Didn't work out...move on.

by cardsfaninmass on Oct 23, 2006 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

As a Tigers fan...
I must say that most of us are scared about Suppan and Carpenter.  

Honestly the only thing you need to do to beat Detroit is hold them with good pitching and take a lead... they lose patience, start hacking away, and need a lot of luck to come from behind.  

My instinct says the Cardinals should take a 3-2 lead to Comerica Park for Game 6... however... Detroit's offense is starting to show signs of waking up after that week-long break before the Series.  

The key for Detroit as always will be getting to the opposing pitcher early and taking a lead.  When they do it, they're very tough to beat.  

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 10:24 AM EDT reply actions  

hey
i would much rather you came here to talk about this.

by tnek5 on Oct 23, 2006 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forget Molina. Why was Wilson hitting?
Man it seems like he's has 24 strikeouts in the last 2 games.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, using pine tar IS cheating...
but it's entirely different than using slippery elm, K-Y jelly, or Vaseline to throw the dreaded "spitter." The pine tar is there to allow the pitcher to grip the ball and throw his normal pitches. It's harder to grip the ball when it's as cold as it was last night. So, a breaking-ball pitcher like Rogers wants his pitches to move exactly as they would if it were 50 degrees outside!

Having said that, I recall Julian Tavarez being ejected and suspended for having "something" on his cap... admittedly, that was during the regular season. Rogers should have been ejected and suspended for 10 days under baseball's rules... period!

The "spitter" has pretty much disappeared from baseball, as pitchers have discovered legal ways to make the ball behave in the same way... to look like a fastball, but then drop like a rock when it gets to the plate. The split-fingered fastball tops the list, but the various "cut" fastballs and sliders pitchers throw these days do the same thing the "spitter" did.

Then, there's the good old change-up, that gets hitters out by fouling up their timing.

Curveballs (a la Darryl Kile and Adam Wainwright) have bedeviled hitters since Candy Cummings.

Forget about Rogers, let it go... and whup up on the Motor City Kitties in The Lou!

"A man should live forever, or die trying." -- Mike Callahan

by The Ol Goaler on Oct 23, 2006 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

ESPN radio was going on and on
about how Rogers has a postseason record of suckage and suddenly he's untouchable.   But, OTOH, he had a very good ENTIRE year.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 10:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Rogers
Rogers was solid this year.  A 3.84 ERA in the AL, even in a pitcher's park, is pretty impressive.

However...he had a 118 ERA+.  Yes, that's just better than Suppan, and not nearly as good as Carpenter this year.  To help put it into perspective - in 2005, Mulder posted a 117 ERA+, Suppan a 120.  

What would you be thinking if Mulder or Suppan, circa 2005, pitched 23 consecutive shutout innings in the playoffs?

by Robb on Oct 23, 2006 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
The guy is in the twilight of his career and this might be his last shot at the big time.  You're telling me you wouldn't have one last incredible surge of youthful adrenaline if you knew it was your last chance to do something special?

He's a crafty veteran who has combined years of experience with a surge of energy and focus.  Sure, the pine tar could have helped a little, but as you saw in Game 2 it didn't make a difference.  

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

how can you say
that it didn't make a difference.  You don't even know.  

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Uhhh...
Uhhh.... maybe the fact he wiped it off and pitched seven more scoreless innings?

Any chance you might accept something like that as evidence he didn't need the pine tar to be effective?

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

if he didn't need it
he never should have put it on his hand in those three straight series

by dontEATnachos on Oct 23, 2006 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still say
that if it WAS pine tar (which I'm not saying it IS, but if it WAS), then just "washing it off" isn't going to get it completely off. There's still gonna be a little sticky there.

Also, when it WAS on his hand, it's almost too easy. Whenever he'd go to his mouth to "warm his hand" he'd get a little on his first and middle fingers. In the words of Darth Vader, "All too easy."

I don't know what, for sure, but something fishy definitely was/is going on.

by Jhusk on Oct 23, 2006 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

there's only one
thing that I have to accept....that the Cardinals lost the game. And there's one thing that you have to accept. That your starting pitcher is a cheater.  It may not have made any difference in the game. But don't pretend that your team has any moral highground in this debate.

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

pine tar
Muldster, if some of us seem a little sensitive about pine tar, part of the explanation may to back to a 2004 incident involving Julian Tavarez. If pine tar is serious enough to warrant a 10-game suspension for Tavarez (notwithstanding the fact that the umps let him discard the supposed evidence), shouldn't it be serious enough to warrant the umps checking to see what exactly was on Rogers' hand?

This history, of course, has nothing to do with the Tigers. And I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Rogers was anything other than deadly effective from the second-inning on.

by DCGreg on Oct 23, 2006 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

And of course there was no
pine tar found after analysis in the Tavarez incident.  heh.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not so sure
about that. Rogers put himself in the position that everything he's done and will do in this postseason is suspect. Was he "deadly effective from the second inning on" or did he merely move the goop to his glove or hat? We'll never know, but the fact that people are wondering is nobody's fault but Rogers. Anybody who has a stake in this World Series now has every right to be suspicious of what made Kenny Rogers so successful--doctoring the ball or stepping up his game? Either way, he has damaged what could have been seen as an historically great run for an aging player. The question mark that will forever follow Rogers' name when this postseason is brought up has been earned; the benefit of the doubt has not.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

very well stated rockin
the fault doesn't lie with the people who are "making an issue" of this; the fault lies with the player who created the issue.

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just hope
our boys can get past it and win so this doesn't become a defining factor (ala The Denkinger Call) of the 06 World Series. I really don't want to be talking about this in 2026--except maybe to laugh about it and say, "Rogers? Oh yeah, the guy who used pine tar. Guess it didn't matter since the Cards won anyway."

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

unfortunately
the umps blew it and didn't inspect his hand. We'd all be having a much more informed discussion if they had.

by DCGreg on Oct 23, 2006 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

see my post above re: "questions"
i'll see your "blame it on the umps" and raise you a "blame it on tlr."  like i said above, i think this is tlr not wanting to show up or piss off his good buddy leyland.  had it been dusty baker in the other dugout, tlr would have been up the umpire's asses demanding to know what is on rogers' hand.  not a doubt in my mind.  

tlr's friendship simply got in the way of his gamesmanship.

by busch league on Oct 23, 2006 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's also a persuasive theory afoot
that both teams are guilty of some less-than-legal activity, and both opposing managers know it --- and these two friends have a gentleman's agreement not to call each other on it.

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

i saw that
but i guess i have to plead ignorance here.  what exactly are we allegedly doing that is less-than-legal?  and who is making the allegations?  

by busch league on Oct 23, 2006 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are no allegations
But every one throwing a baseball last night could use more traction.  Therefore, since we are wondering why TLR didn't make a big fuss over this occasion, as he has done in the past, one could reasonably argue that our pitchers are using the same advantage.  

Now.... one could pinetar thier fingers at the begining of a game and still enjoy the benefits 3 or 4 innings later.  The stuff has some staying power!  Even though Kenny wiped it off, it would still work to some degree.  I am not sure the outcome would have been different if he pitched sans pinetar....  His stuff was electric last night.

by Schnake on Oct 23, 2006 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's also the fact
that a cardinal pitcher (julian tavarez) was caught using pine tar just 2 years ago --- and the cards had the exact same reaction then (ie, "it's no big deal") that the tigers are having now.

i'm not making any specific allegations; i'm just saying it's possible that our boys have a secret or two.

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

...and
I'd add that it's not only possible but highly probable. Every club has its secrets. I'd prefer that Cardinals' secrets remain that way. To say that you know for a fact what TLR has in his head regarding his friendship with Leyland is just as speculative as this explanation. The only truth is we'll never know why TLR let it go. Let's just hope he comes up with a better lineup and better decisions regarding pinch-hitting on tuesday. Ultimately, I'm more disturbed by those miscues--it's "Old Tony" rearing its head and I much prefer the "New Tony" we saw manage the DS and LS.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

What Leyland knows:
  1.   If you don't pitch to Pujols, he probably can't beat you.
  2.  If you throw low and outside to "Triple" he'll swing every time.
  3.  If you throw the ball within 6 feet of Wilson, he'll swing.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know
if they were refering to my post above, but I said it was totally possible LaRussa knows Leyland has something to fire back with, since he knows the team so well.  What blows my mind is how obvious the pine tar was.  Ball players pride themselves on being sneaky and bending rules such as Tavarez did with the rosin morphed into pine tar through face grease, sweat, spit and don't want to know what else.  And the gamblers reason that he didn't know he had a big friggin dirt stain on his pitching hand is worse than Bonds excuse about the cream! I think the umps thought no way could it be that obvious.
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Oct 23, 2006 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is the
only explanation that makes sense to me. You bet TLR would have been all over Dusty Baker--but Dusty Baker was never privvy to the inner workings of the Cardinals. Leyland was--and not long ago. He could very well have some dirt that could cause a mudslinging war that would taint this WS for both sides. You never know--this may have been a really smart move by TLR. Sometimes letting it go is best. Whatever the reason, it hopefully won't affect the Cardinals tomorrow.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

the hat
if he wiped it off and pitched fine i'd accept that.  however, thats not what happened.  if you tivo'd it you should watch it again.  he rubs under his hat several times, then rubs his fingers on his thumb, then rubs the ball.  he does this for EVERY batter from the 2nd inning on.  thats kind of suspicious.  then there is the fact that he has a different hat than everyone else on the tigers...one with a darker underside.  thats also suspicious.  maybe its not "proof", but when you put it all together there is only one logical conclusion.

by dmb60614 on Oct 23, 2006 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

And you
don't know that it did.

by cardsrul on Oct 23, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which
is why i am not claiming that it did

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lefties
It's not the fact that he shut down the Cardinals that makes me curious.  Heck, Oliver Perez shut down the Cardinals for 6 innings.

It's the fact that he shut down the Yankees.  Then the A's.  Then the Cardinals.  At the age of 42.  With a career playoff ERA over 6.00.  

If he was 3-0?  I'd buy it.  If he had a playoff ERA of 1.50?  I could buy that.  As it is, it stinks.  It will be interesting to see what happens in Game 6.

by Robb on Oct 23, 2006 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Heh. Or, I guess you could look at our
lineup and say "man, we don't hit lefties well" again, in spite of the run production against the Mets.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some would argue...
that his previous playoff record was too small a sample size.

I think that's crap reasoning, since his previous playoff experience is roughly equivalent to his innings this postseason.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's only a matter of time
until we get to the Tigers' poser closer, Todd Jones. If Jim Leyland wants the best chance to win, he'd use Joel Zumaya in the ninth.

Leyland has given Jones the veteran's courtesy this season, when a far more talented option exists in Zumaya.

Or maybe Leyland knows more than I do and saves Zumaya for actual high-leverage situations and not the relatively easy ninth-inning gig.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Oct 23, 2006 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Zumaya wont close
Leyland will only use Jones in the closer role.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 23, 2006 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

That 9th inning...
..would have been far less interesting if Jones had just managed to field an easy, pathetic comebacker by Juan Enc.

by cardsfaninmass on Oct 23, 2006 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

How true...
...that was just plain luck for Cards and JuanE. Should have been JuanE's usual inning killer from a key spot in the lineup, which is why he never should have had the bat taken out of his hands. Same for goes for Wilson. Caught a break. Odds were against Molina, but I had more faith he could single the opposite way than I had JuanE or Wilson could do anything at all other than make an easy out. This is where Walt's role comes to play in this World Series. No genuine hitting threat from the corner OF spots last night--prime big bat positions. That's a killer.

I feel our best 3-4-5-6 hitters for rest of WS are Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Spiezio with Edmonds potentially flip-flopping with either Rolen or Spiezio depending on the pitcher. JuanE and Wilson shouldn't be anywhere near heart of order. I'd even prefer Molina bat No. 7 and JuanE or Wilson No. 8. And I'd much rather JuanE be on the bench and save him for a (cough) pinch-hitting role (cough) or as a (cough) defensive replacement (cough).  

Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

You'd rather have Molina batting up in the order
than Encarnacion?  Really?  He of the career .238 average and .328 slugging percentage?

by Valatan on Oct 23, 2006 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Change it a red and white uni and #44
And I would have sworn Izzy got that save last night.
"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Oct 23, 2006 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Change it TO a red and white uni...
duh
"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Oct 23, 2006 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bernie
I usually don't mind Bernie, but has anyone read his post over in the pressbox titled "Much ado about nothing"? What is his deal? His whole argument is that it doesn't matter because he shut us down anyway and we shouldn't talk about it anymore. He is totally in the wrong here. I might be LaRussa's fault for not being more proactive, but it needs to be brought into question, especially from our "top" journalist, when this "dirt" has been with Rogers for all of his scoreless innings.

...I am very dissapointed in Bernie.

by Minerball30 on Oct 23, 2006 11:48 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree
I'm disappointed too.  It doesn't matter if Rogers was able to shut us down after washing his hands.  He cheated. According to the rules, he shouldn't have been in the game after the first inning to shut us down.  Nor should he be allowed to pitch game 6.  It also would have put the Tiger's bullpen in quite a bind for the next few games.

by outraged on Oct 23, 2006 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ditto
I'll agree with Bernie in that it's a non-issue after the first inning as Rogers shut the Cards down just like the majority of LHPs have this season. But had the Cards called Rogers on it and pointed it out to the umps in the first inning, had Rogers and Leyland been ejected, we'll never know if Cards could have rattled the Tigers cage and hit their bullpen for enough runs to have won the game. Rogers should have been checked while he was still on the mound, not after he had the chance to be told TV was all over his dirty scheme and wash off the evidence. So now it's up to Carp, Suppan and TLR lineup making ability.  
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Larry
  1. I thought he should have used J Rod or Duncan instead of Molina (or instead of Juan E. or Preston Wilson). I also thought the same before Molina hit the GW HR in New York.
  2. I thought he switched pitchers a bit quickly too.
  3. As to the pinetar, I think the umps know that players do it (given the temperature) but that they don't want it to be so blatant.
TLR did complain to the umps, but is there any advantage after the game to roast the umps with 5 games left? Anyone remember last year following the comments that TLR made about the umps?

As to Palermo, saying there was no request to check Rogers is bull. It's up to the umpires to enforce the rules, not to the opposing team to ask the umpires to check the opposing pitcher.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Oct 23, 2006 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree lboros...
with the LaRussa analysis... Very perplexed by his decisions. Looper pitched last night, and if Hancock's in the doghouse, fine, but get an inning from Kinney and Thompson. If that game had gone into extras we would have had Looper, Hancock, and maybe Suppan. That's it. Asinine...

and all that was needed for that eventuality was a base hit from Molina and a scoreless frame from AW.

As for the Molina decision, the lefty-righty splits aren't very prevalent with Jones, so maybe that's why we didn't see Duncan. Regardless of splits though, a team should always have hitters of greater ability than Molina at the ready from both sides of the plate.

by guayzimi on Oct 23, 2006 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

They lost...
end of story. Game three is tomorrow; let's focus on that.

by cardsrul on Oct 23, 2006 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Not to beat a dead horse....
I haven't commented before and I saw something last night that I wasn't sure if it had been mentioned yet but I wanted to see if any one else noticed... When Rogers got finished in the 8th he went back to the dugout and then proceeded to hug people and shake hands while leaving his glove on. Given the previous issues he had I thought that it was weird. Did anyone watching the game see Rogers with his glove off? They didn't show him again until he had put on his jacket and gotten cleaned up...

This is just pure speculation... but what if the real problem was in the glove or on the palm of his glove hand?

by planetthree on Oct 23, 2006 12:33 PM EDT reply actions  

The only time...
I saw him without it was when Inge and Van Slyke were talking to him after the first.  He was holding his Gatorade with his glove hand right before he went down into the tunnel.
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

One thing I don't get
Why is everybody saying Rogers pitched clean after the first inning?

Even though the pine tar wasn't visible after the 1st that doesn't mean he couldn't have had it somewhere else. All we know is that the clearly visible area of cheating wasn't as visible anymore.

And on the Tavarez thing, Lloyd McClendon was the Pittsburgh manager then and is now the Tigers bullpen coach.  Having been at that Pittsburgh game (the series before the Tavarez incident) when McClendon charged out at LaRussa in the dugout I want to see TLR charge out to the bullpen in the middle of the game to start it up again.

Oh, and is it true that Dekinger called Kenny Rogers' perfect game?

by enoscountry on Oct 23, 2006 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

it is also true that
It is also true that Alfonso Marquez was behind the plate for both last night's game as well as Rogers' game versus the Yankees.

by maest on Oct 23, 2006 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

here
is a link to another article from yahoo about the pine tar. Apparently Todd Jones claims to have used it all the time while in Colorado.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-2series102306&&prov=yhoo&&type=lgns

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Might be late on this...
seeing as how there are a ton of comments already about Rogers' dirty hand...
but one thing I thought interesting: a reason to not complain about ESPN. they pretty much tore Rogers a new one on Cold Pizza this morning. Buster Olney pointed out the strangeness of Rogers' story conflicting the ump supervisor. the skinny guy (skip something? forget his name) was pretty convinced there was foul play.

by mattybobo on Oct 23, 2006 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh God.
We're forced to agree with Skip Bayless?  Shoot us.
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah,
except olney forgot to ask the question to the head ump suit, whatever his name was, "if dirt is legal, why did you make him wash it off?" that olney guy said he came up with it in the middle of the night. i don't buy that. it's such an obvious question.
Evident The Wash.

by brock on Oct 23, 2006 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wilson!
I need to call this guy out.  He's been terrible, and continues to be terrible.  Why is he in our lineup night after night when we have someone like Taguchi, or Duncan.  heck I'd take Duncan as DH every day and put Spiezio in the field in place of Wilson.  

I know Duncan wouldn't have had much chance against Rogers, but at least he'd make some good swings.

I think Edmonds had great plate patience, as did a few others, but what was up with eckstein man swinging (and hitting weak ground ball outs) on the first/second pitch all night long?  One of the best 2-strike hitters in the league is just looking like someone who wants to get back in the dugout.

by redbird2006in on Oct 23, 2006 1:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Bad news...
PW is our silver bullet against Robertson.

He'll definitely be in there.

by guayzimi on Oct 23, 2006 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

those are
pretty good numbers, though ...

by jeff abs on Oct 23, 2006 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fine.
Put Wilson in RF then, Spiezio in LF and keep JuanE on the bench where he's best suited. Wilson at least looks like he's hustling in the OF and I have more faith in his defensive abilities out there than JuanE. Plus, Wilson made that throw to nab the runner at 2B, a play no one can convince me JuanE would have made (because he would have never have arrived to the ball in time to make the throw that would have beat the runner).  
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Subsatnce abuse?
if you skip the fact that rogers was a lefty and dominating and just go with this: The substance rule, I dont care if it was Trachsel out there if the starting pitcher gets yanked it changes everything...It was the second inning. Now they have someone else going, maybe a bullpen game for a pne that was already used sat...

So in a sense the umps doing nothing does change things in a different sort of way

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 23, 2006 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Throughout this whole Ordeal...
people seemed to have forgotten that Weaver had a pretty good game. Not one of his  better outings this postseason. But giving up 3 runs over 5 innings was good enough to keep us in the game. He weaved out of quite a few jams (bases loaded, no outs and gets out of it unscathed).
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 23, 2006 1:29 PM EDT reply actions  

I don' tthink anyone has forgotten
THe Rogers thing is just bigger.

He was awesome getting out of that bases loaded situation.  He's got to appreciate being left out there to handle it.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

and the best thing is that Weaver has...
...been just good enough, but not lights out, such that it would create a lot of off-season interest in him like Suppan has.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Oct 23, 2006 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

so
if larussa was going to pinch hit for molina, i understand the advantage of having a right hander facing a lefty, but he should have gone with taguchi his career numbers with the bases loades are incredible something close to.500

by truemun12 on Oct 23, 2006 1:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Game 6
Just don't let him cheat in Game 6. Also, Pine tar does not get washed off that easy. To me it looked like it was still on his hands after the 1st. I am little suprised that cheating is so accepted by players.

by DimitroffVodka on Oct 23, 2006 1:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't forget...
Kenny was caught on camera wipping off his shoe too.

Hmmmm...

Ok I'm reaching hehe.

by Pujols for MVP on Oct 23, 2006 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Kenny's Cap
And yet another interesting conspiracy bit with Kenny, this time pointing out how his
game cap is a non-standard, practice cap with a black underside. I don't know that I buy it but...

http://yanksfansoxfan.typepad.com/ysfs/2006/10/more_on_targate.html

and

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/061023

by lostraven on Oct 23, 2006 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Man
Espn is covering this thing from all angles, huh?

Uni Watch is getting in on it!  

Bold Prediction:

TLR doesn't care.  Kenny will wear his 'cheater' hat on saturday, unless we sweep at home!

by Schnake on Oct 23, 2006 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Todd Jones comments, very interesting
http://www.sportingnews.com/experts/todd-jones/20050623.html

(From June 23, 2005)

I pitched in Denver for two years, and at a mile above sea level, I used pine tar every time I pitched at home. My thinking was that I was more than 5,000 feet in the air and was entitled to at least do that much. I never thought one thing about it. Was it cheating? My numbers say no, given that my career ERA at Coors Field is 7.64 in 59 games. It's very dry in Denver, and that makes the baseball slippery. I needed the tar to hold onto the ball. I didn't want the ball to slip and hit a hitter. At least, that was my thinking. I never considered it cheating; I was breaking even.

...

I've been around pitching coaches who teach how to scuff or use pine tar. There's actually an art to scuffing, and there are two fatal errors guys make. The first: They scuff too often. To get away with scuffing, you have to know when to do it. Coaches and older players who have been around a long time know when they see a scuffed ball. So you have to pick your spots. You use it when it's a big part of the game and hope to take advantage of the small window of opportunity before the other team is tipped off. The umpire usually doesn't check the pitcher until the opposing manager asks him to.

...

Now that I've told you how to scuff, the question becomes: How much can players get away with in their own clubhouses? It's funny; pine tar is no big deal to players. Everybody uses pine tar. Catchers put in on their shinguards. Infielders put it in the pockets of their gloves so the ball will stick in there. It's almost a basic part of the game. Sandpaper and Vaseline, however, are looked at as cheating. They give pitchers too much of an advantage.

(Emphasis added)

So let's see... a baseball analyst mentions during the game that 60% of pitchers use pine.  Todd Jones, a veteran pitcher, says a full year ago that he used it all the time and it's commonplace.

What's the logical response by Cardinals fans when Kenny Rogers might have been (and probably was) using it?  

It certainly is not the full-blown steroids-esque scandal that they've made it out to be.

Anyone who has played baseball knows that pine is a part of it.  The guys who use it know the risk of ejection/suspension, so really it's up to the umpires and opposing players to do something about it.  

And so what? Kenny Rogers wipes it off before being caught and goes on to pitch a spectacular game without it.  If you want to blame anyone, blame your hitters for not hitting, and Tony LaRussa for not requesting an inspection.  Rogers just did what 60% of pitchers in the league do.  And while other people breaking the rules doesn't justify Rogers doing the same, it does point to the fact that if it was a big deal, fans and MLB officials would have been calling for a closer watch a long time ago.

If the Tigers go on to win this Series, their crown will not be tainted by the pine on Kenny Rogers' palm.  

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Good to know
hopefully now Tony asks Todd Jones to undress on the mound, too. With this knowledge, is there a Tiger pitcher that doesn't cheat?
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The better question...
Is there a MLB player who doesn't cheat in some way?

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks
for your valued opinion, but the legacy of this incident will not be determined by what you or any of us says on this blog but what baseball players, the MLB and fans across the country (and world for that matter) think about it.  And right now it appears to be a pretty big deal as all major media outlets are talking about it.

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually...
Comments from neutral fans seem to be along the lines of "If he doesn't get caught, it's fine".  

Yes, it is a big deal according to major sports media, but did you expect otherwise?  Even if it was a tiny little issue, it would still be magnified 1000% since this is the World Series.

I thought Gene Wojciechowski's article on Dirtgate was very well written and a good model for what most fans and columnists are thinking.

Of course ESPN, Sports Illustrated, Sportsline, etc., are going to have more "this is a travesty" columns since scandals are news.

Only time will tell what happens to the legacy of this incident, but without players stepping up and decrying it, it's looking like it won't end up being a major scandal.

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it is funny
I think it is funny that you only consider it cheating if you get caught. Cheating is cheating regardless if you get caught or not.

With the national media putting so much attention on this is a good thing, imo. It will hopefully deter him from cheating in game 6 and make the umps actually do something if cheats again.

by DimitroffVodka on Oct 23, 2006 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

So are you saying it was dirt?
Or are you saying it was pine tar and he's okay since he didn't get caught?  If it's no big deal, why did he lie about it... Oh yeah it is a big deal because he would get suspended for it.  If it's not as bad as scuffing or a spit ball, then why is it still illegal?  If it only helps grip but doesn't greatly enhance the way you are pitching than why risk it, and why is it still illegal again?
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Oct 23, 2006 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think...
it's a far cry to imagine that baseball would legalize pine tar since everyone uses it anyway. If some guys get the advantage, everyone should get the advantage.  

Or maybe it could be restricted to pitchers during games colder than 40 degrees.

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then why didn't he come
out and say yeah I use pine tar so does everybody else your rules are wrong and need to be changed.  He lied because it's illegal and didn't want to get suspended.  I think we should be able to speed on the highway when the weather is nice.  Everybody does it.  It is still illegal UNTIL the rule is changed and it probably affected his pitching otherwise he wouldn't have done it.  Or was it dirt?
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Oct 23, 2006 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you had read my post...
You would've seen that I said no.

Of course not, it's still against the rules, and a majority of pitchers doing it does not justify Rogers doing it.

My point is that if he really was cheating, to the extent that he gained a significant advantage over other players, you'd be reading stories today about players and coaches decrying the practice.  Instead, the only people who seem upset are sports columnists and Cardinals fans.

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea,
we'll why might Cardinal's fans be more upset than Padres or Mets fans?   Probably because we have something to lose here...Your reasoning is illogical.   I hate to say this but if you don't want to hear our complaints then don't visit the site.

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually
enjoy reading your complaints, it gives me something to do while killing time at work :-P

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

everybody else thinks this loss is
because Rogers is left handed. Detroit fans aren't upset because he's your best pitcher. Cards fans and sport writers are pointing out that it's illegal no matter what. I don't care if it was for a better grip or to give his pitches a larger break it's wrong and deserves punishment.

by tnek5 on Oct 23, 2006 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then why
are you so desperately trying to defend him? If our opinions don't matter, why the excuses? Nobody likes even a suggestion that they've been cheated--I wonder how you'd feel about this issue if it had been a Cardinal pitcher who then went on to win the game and you'd be heading to St.Lou at 2-0? I'll bet you'd be singing a different tune then.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

This has been said before...
but not by me:
  1. LaRussa shouldn't have to ask the umps to enforce the rulebook, regardless of common practice.
  2. Why do you assume the tar was only on his hand, and not on hat/glove/uni etc...
  3. What is a "big deal" in regards to the morality of cheating changes over time. See the roids scandal in baseball. 15 years ago Lenny Dykstra was making jokes about the "vitamins" he took everyday to reporters and everyone thought he was funny. Now the U.S. Congress is calling these onto the carpet. Better to leave out the moral question and just stick to the rulebook. No foreign substance means no foreign substance.

by guayzimi on Oct 23, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

So
another player, who also happens to be on your team, admits to cheating, doesn't find it to be a big deal, and says "everybody does it so it's okay." Wow. Now there's an excuse my 7 year old nephew could get behind. Nice try, but I aint buying today. As far as how it affects the rest of the series--it shouldn't and won't. As far as how it affects the way Rogers' sudden resurgence is viewed--it should and will. Don't blame us; blame your pitcher. Sorry, but them's the breaks when ya get caught with your hand in the jar (or whatever container pine tar comes in).  

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny
I'm not blaming Kenny Rogers for your overreaction.

In the eyes of Cardinals fans, his resurgence will be tarnished, but I am willing to bet that should the Tigers win this Series, history books will only mention it as a footnote.

by muldster on Oct 23, 2006 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that
footnote will be there--forever. And it's not going to be due to Cardinals fans or overeager media figures. It will be there because your pitcher got caught cheating. The only way that footnote disappears is when the Birds win and the offense is shown to have had no effect on the final outcome. If the Tigers win--plan on seeing that footnote the rest of your life.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow!
you're willing to bet.  Get back to work and quit robbing your company of the valuable work I'm sure that you do.

by eglasier on Oct 23, 2006 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'd rather
history books remember what the cardinals did to glavine the second time they saw him in the nlcs, and what i believe they are going to do to rogers if they see him again this series, and this is make adjustments, take better at bats, hit the ball to the opposite field, and beat him the second time around

i also think this story is a bit of a knock on both the cards and the tigers because the media has been searching for anything to talk about in the last 2 major sports championships that really matter (NFL and MLB) for Christ's sake the biggest story of the super bowl was fat bettis going home to play in detroit for his last game

i just hope they make as a big a deal out of it if reyes is able to win two games in this series, or if pujols is able to make some more magic happen

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Oct 24, 2006 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

classic situational ethics
sounds like every kid in american today: "Well, I only cheat a little, and only when I need to, and only when everyone else is cheating more, so really I'm a very ethical person - much more sore than everybody else."

very sad - doesn't have anything to do with baseball, or who won last night or who'll win tomorrow, but it is . . .

very sad

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I loved him
but didn't steve kline have one of the dirtiest hats in MLB?!?  

Look, pine tar is cheating, all the circumstantial evidence is pointing to this not being the first time Kenny has done this.  This has eerie similarities to the coaching resume scandal, where coaches had lied on their resumes for years, and not until they become head coach of Notre Dame do they get caught.  That was O'Leary's dream job. Game 2 of the World Series was Kenny's dream game.  What a stupid, stupid time to be such a blatant cheater.  

by Schnake on Oct 23, 2006 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kline never washed his hat
EVER.

At one point, don't know if it was during the playoffs, they actually made him start a new hat.  

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pine Tar
This ain't over yet, not by a long shot.

We HAVE to win the next three at Busch.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 2:09 PM EDT reply actions  

ideas for a sign
ok let's stop worrying about the coward of the county for just a minute. more important is the fact that we're going home with 2 studs due to pitch. I have tix to tuesdays game, taking my dad. section 171, 4 rows off the grass in left. I need some ideas for a cool sign. Anyone think that viva el birdos for this world famous blog and to pay homage to the 68 team would jinx us? if there's a long fly or homer I will definately make tv. MAN CRUSH ON WAINWRIGHT maybe? I would appreciate any help that you fine keyboard afficianados could give. THANK YOU LB FOR THE GREATEST SITE ON THESE AL GORE INTERNETS!!!!!!!!

by snortyclaus on Oct 23, 2006 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

How about
"TAR" AND FEATHER THE TIGERS!(medium)
or
The Tigers are frosted flakes!(mild)
or
That wasn't pine tar! Kenny was out of toilet paper! (hot)
I'm just here for the Bud Light...

by OKCardsfan on Oct 23, 2006 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

sign
how about this....

I'M NO GAMBLER, BUT I'M BETTING THAT IT WAS PINE TAR.

by busch league on Oct 23, 2006 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

On a similar note
I wonder about the effects of the pine tar question. Not as much about Rodgers in game 6, because he will pitch to whatever level he will pitch, but more about the issue of LaRussa not having Rodgers searched.

Did the players think something funny was going on and did LaRussa not stand up for them?Does this put a distance between LaRussa and his players?

I don't know the answers, but you could hear the reluctance of Cardinal players to discuss the issue last night and I wonder if part of the issue was that the players came to LaRussa wanting to see something done and then LaRussa comes up short, not having Rodgers searched and leaving no one with a clear yes or no answer on whether Rodgers cheated.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2006 2:37 PM EDT reply actions  

doubt it
even though TLR said he mentioned it to the umps b/c "some of the players thought the ball was moving funny," the only batters to bat in the 1st (Eck, Speeze, Bert, Rolen and Juan) all said that they didn't see anything or notice anything.

I think TLR brought it up, but by then Gambler had washed his hands & it was too late to do anything but look like a whiner, so he let it go.

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

just a thought
but maybe leyland working for the cards the last few years has played into this situation, and i'm not getting mushy about him and tony being sandbox buddies, but rather that if any one manager in league were to know which cardinals players were maybe cutting some corners, it would probably be leyland, and tony didn't want to risk leyland countering with the same thing, and having this turn into an absolute farse of a series
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Oct 24, 2006 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can't see anything.
Digital photo analysis is tricky, too, because you can't be entirely sure if you're seeing something or just a compression artifact.
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't see it?
I don't see how you can miss it.

Anyways, it's on about 5 different photos of the back of Rogers hat.  Unless every cameraman had the same smudge, poor shutter close or decided to get together and alter all their photos, Kenny Rogers has a greasy substance on the back of his polyester hat as late as the 6th inning.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't see it.
The back of the hat is still too dark for me to be sure I'm seeing anything.

I think he had something on the bill of his cap (which, as ESPN uniform guru Paul Lukas points out, is not the standard cap) or in his glove.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is another one from FoxSports.
Do you have your monitor set on '2' for Brightness?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see it there.
And my monitor is calibrated correctly.
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see it
What inning is that from? Looks sorta like the ring around his thumb in the picture from the second inning above.

by rob is back on Oct 24, 2006 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice post LB
Just a few thoughts, given TJ's reverse split and YaMo's "hot hand" I don't think batting YaMo was too unreasonable.

I think TLR's big mistake was not pushing for KR's ejection in the first inning.  My guess is that by the time the news got to the clubhouse and TLR figured out what it was, we were already between innings and there wasn't much for TLR to do at that point.

The '06 Cardinals- The New '73 Mets? (Sorry, but I have to be real about our chances)

by Zubin on Oct 23, 2006 2:49 PM EDT reply actions  

ESPN radio
anyone listening to Dan Patrick right now?

They are talking about it.

KO picked the Tigers in the series, but picked the Yankees at the beginning of the year.

Anyway, anyone remember this out which was called safe?

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 2:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Olbermann said
he as told by a dermatologist and someone else that it was actually a substance akin to tincture of benzoin. Having worked in a hospital storeroom for 22+ years, I know what benzoin is, and it does stain that orange-y color. It can be quite sticky and can take a day or so to fade away.

by cardsrul on Oct 23, 2006 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plays
like that happen just about every game.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Oct 23, 2006 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it was a close as the picture suggests
Albert would have done his "sweep the hand up and walk away" thing.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

As an aside
I find Guillen's "catch the ball off the base, then step toward the base" annoying for some reason.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya
that is kinda goofy, and i was actually thinking during game one that it would be hilarious to have that backfire on him in a key situation, but that guy can freakin hit, we turn him around with flores and he absolutely rocked that pitch back up the middle
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Oct 24, 2006 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's MLB's "Duty, Judy"
I must admit most of you are much better people than I am. 'Cause I'm plain furious.  

I don't spend hundreds of dollars each year to watch a game played crooked and find it acceptable because some people, for whatever reasons, are embarrassed to bring up or impose an uncomfortable situation on national television - and during the World Series.

So we took the supposed "high road" theory doesn't comfort me any either.  I hate to be the pessimist here, but the Tigers are at the World Series for the same reason we are - we are two good teams and if we aren't able to pull through 3 more wins, are we going to just say "oh well at least we took the high road"?  I don't think so; I think we are all going to wish that something had been done.

Sorry if you thought it might make you look like an idiot, La Russa, but it was your duty along with the umpires duty and now (IMHO) it's Selig's duty to straighten this out.

I hate to be a hater, but it sure feels good to at least talk about it openly and honestly.  I have come to love baseball and the Cardinals passionately, but I can't love something I don't trust anymore.

Wow, maybe I need to get a divorce! LOL!

by Cayronut on Oct 23, 2006 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

i think TLR
is getting too much heat here he waent to the umps, now after they just said wash it off he could have gone nuts maybe?  I love the reasoning here:alot of guy do it no big deal...whats the rule book for then? Sorry but is comes down to our no clear view of right and wrong...its ok for you but not me...If this was a card in DET, no question he gets tossed. I have no doubt that his reputation played into this...but lets face it this is a guy that cusses at himself on National Tv and did sock a camera guy
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 23, 2006 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

can we email MLB?
It most likely won't help, but with each photo of a different game this year, I get more and more upset at his blatant cheating.  I have seen photos of three games where he has pine tar on his hands.  MLB is the most impotent professional sporting organization.  You know the NBA or NFL would have made a statement on rule breaking by now.  

by Schnake on Oct 23, 2006 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

But as I've had pointed out several times today...
we don't KNOW it's pine tar on his hand in any of those photos.  And since we don't know, we can't accuse him of anything.

Also, Barry Bonds never used steroids and the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are real.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually
the rule is in regard to "any foreign substance" so it's immaterial whether it's pine tar or benzoin or whatever
"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

But dirt isn't an illegal substance.
It's "part of the playing surface."

So says the MLB umpire supervisor.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're forgetting
that it was a dirt, rosin (sp?), and water-based substance, is what i believe leyland called it

the whole thing stinks of pine tar tho, i mean why would rogers lie to the whole country after the game by saying the umps didn't come up and talk to him, after tony and leyland had both said they umps talked to rogers and told him to wash it off

i've also heard that pictures throughout the second half of the season reveal a similar substance on his hand

also kinda funny that a pitcher with a career postseason era of almost 9, is suddenly throwing out doughnuts like krispy kream

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Oct 24, 2006 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

We don't know because no one checked
The reason for complaining, imo, is not because Rogers had pine tar on his hand, which he probably did, but because they didn't bother to check.

I have to admit that I'm pretty angry about this also. I agree with Lboros in that it probably didn't cost us the game and I can't get too angry at TLR, because maybe he figured they would check if he mentioned it. But if Rogers WAS using pinetar, then he would've been ejected for the series and that could've been a big boost for us, which wouldn't have bothered me a bit, if he was indeed cheating.

by rob is back on Oct 24, 2006 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Larry - due respect, I think you're wrong on YoMo
He was swinging the bat at least as well as the rest of the lineup last night, and I think better than most.  With the way that "rally" developed, i.e., very quickly (less than 120 secs from Juan's error to YoMo's AB) and with two outs - there wasn't time to get anyone ready enough to hit as well as YoMo might have.  Not that he was a shoe-in, I just don't think it was unreasonable for TLR to let him bat there.

The grotesquery of the 9th inning was to let Inky and PW get anywhere near the batter's box, regardless of whether the game (series? season?) was on the line or not.  TLR should have had a pinch hitter for Juan ready from the top of the 8th on b/c, with Lonely batting 4th in the 9th, there was every reason to believe that slot would bat.  And Juan was completely, little-baby helpless at the plate, so any AB by ANYONE else there would help the club for Games 3+ even if there wasn't a "rally" that put the outcome of G2 in question.

And, to add insult to injury, once God had tipped his hand and openly demonstrated that He was taking an active, personal role in the 9th (i.e., by Juan reaching and JEdward getting a "double"), it was simply RIDICULOUS for TLR to let PW go to bat.  Somebody should have tackled him going up the steps, called time, pulled the fire alarm, something!  And no excuses, this time, the game was definitely ON, one run in and the tying runs in scoring position.

I'm not smart enough to know whether you (1) go to LilDunc or JRod b/c they're LHH, but probably end up getting Zumbalaya Heater in response, or (2) try to keep Jones in the game by going with Taguchi (greatest PH of ALL TIME, judging by this post-season only!) or Big Belly, who was ACHING to get in the game, or (3) try and catch a little lightning with SnoCones, who I still believe will do something wonderful b4 this series is over, or (4) I know it's not an option, but that's the sort of situation where Viz can almost gurantee a single - no power, but an uncanny knack for the important single.

What I DO KNOW, however, is that PW was not going to deliver.  We were fortunate (or not) that he got hit-by-pitch and thus were spared his 3-pitch K, but it was an opportunity lost nonetheless.

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 3:00 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, the "hot bat" theory
a lot of people subscribe to it; i just happen not to. two schools of thought on it; agree to disagree

by lboros on Oct 23, 2006 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

for PITY's SAKE, HELP ME!!!!
I simply cannot make it without Shannon and Rooney, and it's jinxing the Cards too.  Can anyone tell me:
  1.  do MLB.com carry Shannon & Rooney "live" and what is the lag time to TV?
  2.  are there any Satellite radio stations that carry Shannon & Rooney, and what's the lag time on that?
  3.  are there ANY over-the-air stations that are carrying Shannon & Rooney other than 550, which I simply cannot hear after 7:30 or so.
I am BEGGING NOW, b/c I just can't take Morgan on radio or McCarver on TV

help a mid-Missourian out!!

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 3:16 PM EDT reply actions  

If ya can't
get 550, I think you're outta luck. Though you might try searching both AM and FM for some affiliate that carries the 550 broadcast.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take the 11 seconds
and just turn the TV off.  It's better by radio anyway, so long as it's not Joe Morgan pounding the dumb-nail into my head all night.

Thanks

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

XM
183 I believe is the good guys.

by Jhusk on Oct 23, 2006 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

columbia
"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

KKCA 100.5 FM in Fulton
Do they still carry the games? They did when I worked there back in '90 and they still were in '96 when I got out of the Navy.

I have no idea now - been living behind enemy lines (Waukegan, IL) for 10 years now.

[Checked before I posted this: Yes, they do. KFRU 1400 AM in Columbia does as well.]

Oh, the burden of stupid people.

by Solanus on Oct 23, 2006 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes,
but all the "Cardinal network" stations are carrying (I think "have" to carry) the ESPN broadcast.  Something about the team owning broadcast rights to reg and post season games, but only MLB owns rights to WS games.
"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

me too.
our affiliate stopped broadcasting?  I've been camped out in front of the TV.

by Schnake on Oct 23, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously? talking about columbia, mo?
i've never tried, they also do games on 94.3 and 1400
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Oct 24, 2006 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

mlb.com audio
You can listen in on Shannon and Rooney here - there's about a 5-10 second delay.  I do this and turn the TV sound off and it works great for me.  You need to be sure to pick the KTRS option - they will automatically steer you to the home team if you don't select it yourself.

by wildman on Oct 23, 2006 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe try yahoo
i've listened to football games there before
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Oct 24, 2006 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Two thoughts
First of all, you can look at the stats all you want to.  Yadier should have batted there for two reasons: 1) In the event the game goes into extras, we needed his D, and 2) That would be very detrimental for the team's morale (IMO) to pinch-hit for a guy who just hit the game winning homerun, nay, the SERIES winning homerun just three days ago.  What kind of reward would that be?

Second of all, there are photos of Kenny Rogers pitching with crap on his hands in all three rounds of the postseason thus far, but NO ONE has noticed that all of his starts have been at Comerica Park.  And it just so happens that he's been slated to pitch games 2 and 6, both at home.  I'm not accusing, but it would definitely be easier to get away with something at your own home stadium than on the road.  The Tigers' ALDS and ALCS wins have enabled them to set up their rotation as they wish for each succesive series.  Just a thought.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Oct 23, 2006 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

reward
Your argument about letting Yadi hit because he has earned it has some merit. However, the manager's job is to put his team in the best position to win. People can legitimately disagree about the merits of Yadi hitting in that position, but I can not sit idlly by and let the "reward" argument pass by. If Yadi was the best available option in that position, then he should get the AB. If he is not, he should be yanked. He hit a big home run two days ago. For how long does that merit the "reward" of which you speak? Two days? Three days? Ten ABs? When the team is at a crossroads and needs a big hit, does TLR have to consider what happened a couple days ago against a different team, different pitcher, different series, different situation? I argue he should be free to say, "who is best for this situation"? The argument that players are given ABs in crucial situtation as a "reward" for something that happened in a completely different context is abhorent to me. This "reward" mentality is what has led TLR in the past to overuse guys like Izzy, Mulder, Edmonds, (remember Tino Martinez), etc. when they no longer were the best available player. I know, I know, playing veterans is a different animal than batting a young guy in a crucial position, but both are built on the "reward" mentalitiy--reward them for something that happened in a different time, different place, against a different team in a different town in a different series. If you were to say, "Yadi has three hits in his last five ABs" or "Yadi has killed this pitcher in the past" or "Yadi hit over .350 with RISP" (he hit .267 this year) or "Yadi has been killing the ball over the last week" (his average over the last week is .235), those could all be valid arguments. But not, "he had a big home run the other day". Again, I'm not arguing he shouldn't have been up, just that we need better logic than the "reward" logic. The "hot hand" argument carries lots more weight than that.

by ninerings on Oct 23, 2006 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, how about
this was his first at-bat in such a tight situation since the homerun.  Why yank him when his last such at-bat resulted in a homer?  I'm not saying he should reward him because he deserves it, I'm saying that it could hurt the team's morale if the guy who's homer got us here is yanked.  It could cause a rift in the club.  I don't know about how Yadi is as far as being a team player and his ego and such.  That was really the point I was trying to make.
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Oct 23, 2006 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are we just whining?
I've spent most of last night and today having this discussion, and the consensus among non-Cardinal fans appears to be "shut up, whiner, the umps didn't do anything and you can't prove it."

They point to A) statistics on Rogers's postseason pitching being worthless because the sample size is too small to be valid, B) the umpires not throwing him out but instead telling him to wash his hand, C) no proof that it's anything but dirt and D) TLR not pitching a screaming hissyfit as soon as J-Rod told him about it.

So are we just whining crybaby sore losers, or are we STUPID whining crybaby sore losers?

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 3:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Exactly
I don't know why people raised such a fuss about Bonds and McGwire.  They weren't caught doing anything.  They beat Maris' record, everyone needs to just stop whining and accept it.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neither--
"Sore Losers" would imply that we invented this issue out of nothing, which is impossible since Rogers DID have a foreign substance on his hand. "Crybaby Whiners" would imply that we are saying we lost the game ONLY because of the pine tar (most of us are willing to concede that Rogers MAY have pitched as well without an illegal substance--but since he did use the substance and seems to have been using it throughout his postseason run, we'll really never know for sure). "STUPID whining crybaby sore losers" would imply that the person saying such a thing is a Tiger fan like our pal Muldster, so that's an opinion we can discount immediately. Of course there will be fans who could care less--they have bets on the Tigers, are pissed their team isn't there, are pissed the Cardinals are there, etc etc. The fact is the man had an illegal substance on his hand. As I asked of Muldster (and--to no surprise--received no answer), I'd ask this of any fan: If Jeff Weaver had been caught red-handed against their team, had gone on to win the game, and it was their team headed back to Busch down 2-0, would you care then? Would the thought cross your mind that you had PERHAPS been cheated out of an extremely important game? Anyone who would answer that they still wouldn't care is protecting some other interest.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps I'm thinking too
conspiratorially, but is it possible that, on the verge of a new 5-year labor agreement negotiated quietly and w/o rancor, MLB has no interest in disciplining a player who's doing something that possibly quite a lot of other players do as well?  Perhaps MLB will be a lot more rule-oriented once it has got the players' union's signature on the new agreement.

And on a larger issue, is MLB not making a bigger issue out of steroids for the same reason?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 23, 2006 3:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Lineup Tomorrow
My Lineup Tomorrow:

Eckstein - SS (1/5 w/ HR)
Taguchi - LF (never faced Robertson)
Pujols - 1B (never faced Robertson)
Rolen - 3B (never faced Robertson)
Wilson - RF (5/5 w/ 2HR, 1BB)
Edmonds - CF (never faced Robertson)
Molina - C (never faced Robertson)
Belliard - 2B (8/25 w/ 4 2B, 4BB, 4K)
Carpenter - P (never faced Robertson)

by stlcardi70 on Oct 23, 2006 4:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Defense
After looking at that.... that is my favorite defensive lineup as well.... that will be great behind Carp as well....

by stlcardi70 on Oct 23, 2006 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take that lineup
Taguchi is a better option than juan right now.

AND i just threw up in my mouth.

by Schnake on Oct 23, 2006 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heck no...
you made the same mistake LaRussa has made many many times this post season. Wilson cannot be spliting up the "big three." He is in a horrible slump and has taken nothing by bad AB's, even against the lefties he is suposed to hit, for most of this post season. If you want to start wilson, fine, but bat him 6th or 7th, not 5th.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Too logical for TLR?
I'd be satisfied with the defensive alignment, but certainly not comfortable with Wilson hitting No. 5. I don't care what his "stats" say, I'd move him down at least to No. 6 and even tempted to push him down to No. 7. It's in his head now and it ain't pretty. I wouldn't mind Spiezio in LF, or perhaps pinch-hit him if Wilson continues to flounder at the plate then put him in LF and move Taguchi to RF.
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

worst. liar. ever.
watch this video:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2635618

and keep in mind the lessons in the book: Never Be Lied to Again, by David J. Lieberman.

Keep an eye out for a few of the telltale signs of deceit in the video (and if you have the book, check out the associated pages): quick, partial shrugs (p. 16); prolonged expressions of surprise (p. 20); a hard swallow (p. 54); and incongruence of head nods/shakes with the person's words (p. 19).

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 4:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Crowding the Plate
I think the Cards need to start crowding the plate on these lefthanders. They did it to Glavine in game 5. Make them pitch inside and start taking some beans. The outside pitch will become a lot more hittable.

by DimitroffVodka on Oct 23, 2006 4:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Exactly...
enforce it or dump it. Otherwise, you just end up with what we have here--a bunch of pissed-off fans who are wondering if their team was cheated.

by rockin redbird on Oct 23, 2006 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guillen is their regular SS, right?
Man, that guy looks like he's bigger than Rolen.  Is his range poor as a result of his size?

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 4:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Splits
Some things that jumped out on me while looking at Robertson's splits.....

Righties hit .284 against him.  Lefties .181
He has given up 29 HR this year and 27 were to righties.
Against righties he has given up 171 H in 153.1 innings.

by stlcardi70 on Oct 23, 2006 4:16 PM EDT reply actions  

HR
oh and btw.. thats only 5 less HR than Weaver gave up this year....... its worth noting and 6 less than Marquis.......

by stlcardi70 on Oct 23, 2006 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Edmonds
should be the only lefty in tomorrow night's lineup.  Robertson destroys lefties but is VERY vulnerable to righties.  Unfortunately, Wilson and Encarnacio look like little-leaguers right now.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

DESPICABLE!!!!
This link:
http://www.sportingnews.com/experts/todd-jones/20050623.html
was posted above, but here's a few things I didn't notice on first reading:
  1.  It's from 2005, when this dirt bag was a Marlin
  2.  It's a how-to primer on how to cheat with scuffing or pine tar
  3.  It's written with absolute insolent disregard for the rules, the game . . . and the reader.
What a punk!

I was having a hard time finding any real anomosity toward the Tigers.  Not anymore.  Any team that would feature this dirt bag does not deserve to be World Champs.

Don't take my word for it.  Read it.  Now.

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 4:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Leyland dodges the question
"I'm not going to chew yesterday's breakfast"

Ha!

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

He pulled out the 'victim' card
saying he's tired of having to answer questions about things like in Game 1 w/pitching to Pujols.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jim Leyland says he isn't here
to talk about the past.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

We keep saying that
we have some kind of an advantage at this point with Carpenter and Suppan...

but Carpenter seems tired to me.  his curveball has been MIA periodically and his fastball seems eminently hittable as of late.  Setting aside objections like small sample size, I have to wonder if he isn't just worn out.  He didn't look dominant in either of his Mets games although his Padres starts were good 12 Ks in two games isn't anything to write home about for Carp.

Please don't get me wrong.  Carpenter even when tired is an above average pitcher.  But 11IP with a 5.73 ERA, 5Ks against the Mets makes me wonder if he isn't running on fumes.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Oct 23, 2006 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

500 innings
in 2 years. Yeah.  Same reason I have cooled on acquiring Buerhle if it were possible.

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

his last inning of the game last week
was good. If i remember that was the inning he brought his curve back out.

by tnek5 on Oct 23, 2006 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

ESPN cuts off Tony in the interview
Gammons' said the umps felt they game would be a better game with Kenny Rogers in there rather than 9 relievers.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 4:55 PM EDT reply actions  

The two explinations the umpires gave
Gammons on the flight from Detroit was:

-The Cardinals never mentioned that the ball was doing 'funny things'
-They felt the game would be better if Kenny Rogers was out there or if 9 relievers were out there.

Tony just confirmed that no Cardinals hitter said the ball was doing anything funny.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

So why did Leyland...
say they were complaining?  He wasn't in our dugout, so that could only have come from the home plate ump.

This is stranger and stranger.  Why didn't TLR go out and ask for an inspection when J-Rod came from the clubhouse to tell him?  Why didn't the ump go out and look when he noticed the "dirt" in the first place?

I can't figure this out.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know and I swear the umpire
after the game said that the Cardinals had complained about the ball as well.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those words from TLR are weird
considering those were TLR's words on the Fox ingame interview.

Then again, what are they gonna do?  Play the game over?   maybe he's thinking "we lost a game we expected to lose.  WE're tied 1-1 and coming home.  Screw it, it's not worth the trouble."

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

because...
... if true, that means that umpires deliberately let someone who had violated the rules continue in the game, to the detriment of one team and benefit of the other, and these umpires should not be allowed to retain their jobs.

if true, that basically proves there was a conspiracy.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did Gammons write this somewhere
or say it live on air?  There's a guy with a ton of credibility (does anybody have more?  even if you disagree with his analyses), and he's saying the umps let it go so the game wouldn't be 'ruined' by the Tigers having to deal with the freaking consequences of breaking the rules?  What the hell?

by jfs on Oct 23, 2006 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somewhat reminiscent of this call...
The God complex Celtics vs. Suns June 1976 - In the final seconds of Game 5, the Celtics screamed for a time-out they didn't have. Instead of slapping Boston with a mandatory technical and handing Phoenix the free throw that might have given them a 3-2 series lead, referee Richie "Just Call Me God" Powers ignored the call. "I just couldn't see the Celtics losing that way, especially on their home court," Powers allegedly explained. Boston won a 128-126 victory three OTs later and the championship in Game 6.

It's not up to you jackhole...follow the fucking rules!

"He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."

by iron duke75 on Oct 24, 2006 5:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Uh oh...
Phillies just signed 44 year old Jamie Moyer to a 2yr/$10.5m contract.

New recipe for roster building: Go for the superstars, collect the DFA's, hire an ace pitching coach.

by guayzimi on Oct 23, 2006 5:02 PM EDT reply actions  

wow.....
wonder how much they will offer Marquis?  :)

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jamie Moyer...
will be eligible for Social Security by the time this contract runs out.

Marquis probably gets offered 3 years/$25 million or so.  Soup's gonna get offered 3/$30 as a start.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No chance does Marquis get that much...
He'll get 1 year - 5 mil TOPS from someone
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 23, 2006 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't bet on that
The market is getting wacked again.   Some team gets desperate......

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's nuts to pay Marquis a nickel...
over the minimum. You can get something better with a minor league contract, and he has no former greatness to revert to.

That said, you're right, the market is screwy.

He'll likely want a one-year contract so he can get the 3 year after 2007, a la Weaver.

by guayzimi on Oct 23, 2006 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

anyone who offers Suppan 10 million a year
is nuts.  I love the guy but he is not a #1-2 type starter.  He's good for slightly above league average numbers and 200IP in the NL.  7 million over 3 years is far more reasonable.

if someone offers 10 million...well it was nice knowing you Supp.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Oct 23, 2006 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Around the Horn on Smudgegate
On Around the Horn today is J.J. Adande, Tim Cowlishaw, Woody Paige, and Jay Marriotti.

The Rogers story leads off.  The arguments:
Jay - Accuses MLB of covering up the story and brings up ESPN's coverage.  Credits McCarver and wants to know why TLR let it go.  Wonders whether we can trust baseball again.  Where's Bud Selig in all of this?

Cowlishaw - Not calling it cover up.  Doesn't know if it is dirt.  Not a huge scandal.  Gaylord Perry.

Adande - Have to ask why is cheating a part of baseball.  Throw out all the players in the HOF who violated any rule.  Says we shouldn't be so upset.  Says he should have been ejected and that baseball is hypocritical.

Woody - Hid the pine tar, which is sticky, and when he held the rosin bag, it stuck to the hands, so he had to wash it off.  He was cheating.  Woody even illustrates the thing.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 5:15 PM EDT reply actions  

And I just posted...
right as you were updating to include PTI.

Oh well.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, well, indeed
On PTI:
They start off with Kenny Rogers so it looks like it's dinner after this.  Wilbon says it should have been important since it's the World Series and that Tony La Russa should get into his head.  

Tony Kornheiser says to check his hat and glove.  He says to get into Kenny Rogers' head.

had they had KR later in the show, i wouldnt have been able to post.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am appalled by so much of this
I'm not convinced Tony hasn't done the right thing.  The players don't need to be distracted by all of this and are going to have to hit him in game 6, so maybe it's best that Tony isn't pushing it.  

But where's MLB to do the right thing?  What I do not get is the righteous indignation everyone has had from Congress, to former players, to current players to the media to fans about steroids.  Could you imagine if cameras had caught Pujols shooting up in the dugout?  There'd be a Congressional investigation, a suspension, and probably a lynch mob.  And not b/c it's Pujols but b/c steroids for some reason are treated differently than what Rogers did last night.

Why?  Is what Rogers did any different than what Bonds, McGwire, or Sosa are alleged to have done?  People want to expunge home run records based on less evidence than what cameras have picked up all year on Kenny Rogers' hand.  From a strictly integrity of the game standpoint, Rogers should be suspended.  Bud Selig needs to stand up and be a man for once and do the right thing b/c it's the right thing to do.

If cameras had caught Bonds shooting up in the dugout, would MLB say "Well, he didn't fail a drug test."?  As for the argument that Rogers pitched well after he ostensibly wiped the stuff off, I don't care.  Would Bonds be exonerated from doing steroids if he didn't homer in his first game after shooting up?  

The absolute hypocrisy of this whole thing is absurd.  I'm not sure it would benefit the Cardinals but it absolutely would benefit baseball and the integrity of the sport to suspend Rogers for 10 games and apparently, Selig's not going to do it.  I just don't get it!

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 5:39 PM EDT reply actions  

ANd hey, if TLR is playing loose
then this is loose, right?   "Ah, it's cleaned off.  screw it.  Let's go play.  I'm not gonna spend 30 minutes on the field arguing with people."

by sdrone on Oct 23, 2006 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Steroids are newer
And hence much more sensationalistic, especially since they tie in to the recent HR races

Also, I think there is probably more objection to them due to the fact that they are so inherently damaging to the body--if a large chunk of pitchers use pine tar or vasoline or whatever, then they just do.  But if a large chunk of position players do the same, then you're going to see a lot of six or seven year careers for your superstars, which, in the long run, is bad for the owners, players, and the sport.

On the integrity level, though, you are spot on.

by Valatan on Oct 23, 2006 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand
that steroids are bad for you but they're not illegal b/c they're bad for you.  They're illegal b/c they provide one w/ an unfair competitive advantage.  Otherwise cigarettes, alcohol, and fast food would be banned as well.  Pine tar, or whatever Rogers had on his glove, provided him w/ the same unfair competitive advantage that steroids provide a player.

Thanks for the kind words.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rarely has MLB ever done the right thing...
...under the bone-head Bud regime.
Baily

by Baily on Oct 23, 2006 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay......
Mr. Rogers had SOMETHING on his hand.....anyone with EYES could see that.  Maybe Tony's going to wait until Game 6, when Rogers pitches again, in a game that is going to matter a lot more--and get him tossed then.  Really, are they going to just let it go if it's the deciding game of the series?  Does either team want that taint?  Does baseball really want a controversial winner?  This feeling that it's okay, everyone does it, is just wrong.  It's NOT okay!  NO ONE is supposed to do it.  They have rules, written rules,  on how to handle these kinds of incidents.  They don't care!  Well, I care!  

by jillsinmo on Oct 23, 2006 5:49 PM EDT reply actions  

i'm getting the feeling
seeing media people freak out, but mlb people play it off, that everyone uses pine tar. my guess is that the cardinals do it too (and i think it's probably our most important pitchers). that's the only way i can explain la russa not going out and having rodgers checked. if he goes out there and starts something, he ensures that the microscope will be on carp and suppan. thing is, now there's going to be a microscope anyway, although i think carp could basically come out with a vat of the stuff and not get tossed.
Evident The Wash.

by brock on Oct 23, 2006 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

umm...
... TLR did go out. maybe he didn't ask for an "official inspection," but he obviously told the ump that he thought something was up.

the umps decided to let it slide. TLR didn't throw a fit, but he certainly bring the issue up.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only way I buy the
'Larussa didn't pursue it b/c the Cards do it too' argument is if Weaver was doing it last night in some shape or form, just better hidden.  Larussa's not going to sacrifice advantage in a game out of some vague sense that somewhere, at some point, his players could get caught doing same, by Leyland or whoever.

by jfs on Oct 23, 2006 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Houstoncardinal......
I am absolutely 100% in agreement with you!  I've posted a diatribe as well......

by jillsinmo on Oct 23, 2006 5:51 PM EDT reply actions  

some part missing..
Have been not posting and just reading all comments here and on the web etc... on "Pinetargate"...

I have to think that there is just more to the story than we are getting here. Tony DID say that some of the batters who faced Rodgers in the 1st said the ball was doing some funny things.. I HEARD him say it...Now the umpire says Tony never said that? And the umpires are trying to say that unless the Cards complain to them they don't have to enforce the rule that says you can't use ANY substance to doctor the ball? What the hell is up with that?  Look... Rodgers beat us last night with a great performance...I'm not saying this whole pine tar thing is the reason...not at all..but if the guy pulled a "Taveres" then he deserves the same penelty. Either that or change the rule.  My question is why is everyone doing their best to avoid this whole issue if nothing really happened?  It makes no sense. All I know is a 42 yr old pitcher who has been mediocre to good his ENTIRE career, is all of a sudden un-hittable..to three differnt PLAYOFF teams, with some pretty damn good bats on them.  Could he just be reaching the heights of his talent? I guess so...but the way everyone in MLB is running around and away from this story...it sure makes you wonder.

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 5:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Well..
well, if he was to just go out there and accuse Rodgers of cheating then the whole world would accuse the ump of having it out for Detroit.  

Just a situation that an umpire does not want to get himself into.

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

What?...
For enforcing the RULES?....are you kidding me man?....

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope
Nope, not kidding you at all.

An umpire doesn't want to put himself into that kind of circumstance.  Then he has to answer the press and all that

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

So....
if a pitcher is cutting the ball...or spitting it up....and you are the ump...and you KNOW he is doing it...you think that the standard call is to just IGNORE the offense unless the other team complains about it?  Is that your opinion of how it should go?..

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I
I never said this was my opinion about how things should be done at all.  I said that's the way it is done.  When was the last time you saw an umpire take matters into his own hands?

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh...
I guess about every game I watch....Called strikes and balls....balks....calling foul balls..you know...ENFORCING THE RULES of the game...that kind of stuff....I can remember a umpire stopping an ANGEL game this summer because the Angels pitcher, Santana, had one sleeve longer than the other one...made him go in and change it in the middle of warmups before the 1st inning.  They take matters into their hands daily, is what I'm saying.  And I'm not trying to say you think that way or that I'm disagreeing with you .....I appreciate your insight and information on this Jx.. honest.

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see
I see where you're comoing from completely.  We just have two seperate views and there's no problem with that.

The Santana thing.....who knows if a manager pointed it out or not.  I can't find the store anywhere.

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree
the umps, unfortunately, NEVER have to answer to the press.  They should have to, but never do if they don't want to.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recall
The ALCS last year.  We won't get started with Pierzynski......

I know the umps got interviewed after that game.

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

And don't forget
a few years back in the AL playoffs when Tim Tschida (I think it was he) was asked about crediting Chuck Knoblauch with a phantom tag on a double play against the Red Sox, and Tschida caught some hell (maybe it just seemed like hell on Boston sports talk radio) for calling Knoblauch 'Knobby' like they were best pals or something.

Re the debate above: in an age when umpires are getting memos about calling a bigger strike zone to speed games up, measuring up to Questec or whatever, etc., I'm not surprised that umps would project that it was going to be seen as Their Fault, somehow, if a World Series starter had to be replaced by (the above-cited Gammons line) 'nine relievers.'  But that doesn't make it any less galling.

by jfs on Oct 23, 2006 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

fwiw...
First time poster, long time Cards fan.

I think the kibosh is on this pinetar thing from on high.  Even Palmero's (ump supervisor) ridiculous non-denial denial is forced.  It was dirt?  Right, that's some sticky dirt.

My read on all of this is that there's some sort of gentleman's agreement regarding pinetar and pitchers, as hitters generally accept that pinetar really doesn't give the pitcher an advantage, merely it helps their grip in the cold.  Remember the Taveres situation (I was actually at that game, it was kind of cold and misty that day)?  I think Pittsburgh only called Taveres on it because a)it was obvious he had something on his cap and b) Pittsburgh's manager was pretty teed off at TLR for some reason.  So it was sort of a personal, petty thing.

But I wonder if the foreign substance wasn't really pinetar, but some new stuff that DOES give the pitcher an advantage, and that's why JRod and the boys are so pissed about all of this.  And by making it as blatantly obvious as they did, everyone just assumed it was pinetar, but now they're not so sure.  But it makes the Cards look like poor sports if they try to complain. (after all, EVERYONE does it, right?)

Finally, I think regardless of whatever that stuff was, MLB really, really doesn't want anyone to use the c-word on live, national TV during the World Series.  It's already bad enough for them with the 'roids scandal, and we all know how pissed off FOX is about not having their east coast team in the fall classic.  

I guess MLB doesn't want to rock the boat too much; this at least gives the media something to talk about and possibly enhance the "buzz" for good or for ill about this series, thereby driving up the ratings for FOX.  But at the same time, it also saves face for MLB, not having a cheater caught red handed.  I almost would have some sympathy for them, if they didn't continue to raise WS ticket prices by obscene amounts every year.  And if they would just own up to the steroids scandal... like that will happen

by viget on Oct 23, 2006 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree
Evident The Wash.

by brock on Oct 23, 2006 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm.....
I wonder what George Brett thinks about this whole "pine tar" thing......  :)

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

If anyone cares.........
Take this for what you want.

So I have a guy in my class who is an umpire.  This season he was in double AA ball.  To protect his privacy I guess I'll just give his first name, Mike. Anyways, he's friends with the home plate ump from last night.

So last night he called him up and asked him what was on the hand and the ump said it was definitly pinetar and told Rodgers to "fucking clean his hand"  He said this to him as Rodgers was walking off the field after the first inning.  I didn't catch his whole conversation, but he didn't kick him out because he said it to Rodgers before LaRussa talked to the umpire.

So like i said take it how you want.

It's in the past now and MLB will probably do nothing about it.  All in all, we still have to win 3 games.

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 5:53 PM EDT reply actions  

that's two...
... this is now two people (Gammons and "Mike") who have said that the umps knew that he breaking the rules, knew that he should be ejected, and yet didn't do it.

and MLB umpiring supervisor was in on it.

not conclusive, by any stretch, but still. JxMetal, any chance you can get your classmate to go on record with this? and has anyone found a link to what Gammons said on ESPN?

i'll bet Henry Kissinger is behind this somehow... j/k.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm at work now so no high-speed
but it looks like ESPN-MLBs page has the video of Gammons talking at Busch Stadium.  It was in a similiar standup that he made the claim 'felt the game would be better with Rogers still in it'.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2006 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doubt it
I doubt it, just basically because it's not his business.  And if he did I don't think he'd get the AAA promotion he's expecting.

In other words, it's in his best interest to stay quiet.

by JxMetal on Oct 23, 2006 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone...
know the whereabouts of G. Gordon Liddy?

by Cards67 on Oct 23, 2006 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

holy crap
so the ump new and did nothing.
Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Strickland and Karraker
live on 1380

Said TLR doesn't think it was dirt

Wants to "win on the field"

Vehemently denies that his relationship w/ Leyland had anything to do w/ how he reacted

Speeze is the one who went to look at tape after his AB and saw it on TV and told Tony

Tony "apologized" to the team and asked if anyone felt he shoulda handled it differently, but no one said so

Geez, could these guys HATE TLR anymore?  I don't understand it.

"Feel my ears, Mike!" -- Jack Buck

by ITouchedMcGee on Oct 23, 2006 6:17 PM EDT reply actions  

so if it's just pinetar....
...why would Speeze care so much?  If everyone does it, that is.

What if this was some new stuff that gave a pitcher some kind of advantage?  Supposedly pinetar doesn't make the ball do "funny" things.

And what's up with KR wearing a batting practice hat that's intentionally dark on the underside?  What exactly is he using?

by viget on Oct 23, 2006 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

My frienf reminded me
of the guy In major league One, who was older but used everything..littl bit of halenpeno in the snot etc...and then i remebered the guy in The naked gun with the sand paper and vasoline..funny
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 23, 2006 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sort of O/T
but did anyone catch the American Idol commerical during the 7th inning stretch on game 1?

There was a brief shot of a "scorecard" before showing the various idol contestants.  Interestingly enough, the scorecard said Mets vs. Tigers.

Hmmmm... I wonder whom FOX really wanted to be in the series?

by viget on Oct 23, 2006 6:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Fox..... comments on the hell they are.....
I thought the 3 min dead air as they waited for John Mellancamp to come out on the field to sing his "CHEVY" song ...was a hi-light last night for sure... and whomever decided to put "The Three Stooges" Zalasko, Burns, and Kennedy off to the side of 3rd base to open the show...nice choice there guys, why not just stick them in the bull pen next time.... Anita Baker singing the NA...word of advice ma'm?...next time start about 3 notes lower....I thought we were going to have a Carl Lewis moment there for a second...How many shots of a crowd do you REALLY need guys?..how about once in while just letting us watch the parts of the game when the ball isn't being pitched or hit...The things that happen on the field IN BETWEEN the pitches...are important to baseball fans too...  And I just read that next year FOX will increase the commercials in-between half innings....so all in all?..they just keep improving the quality of the game...don't they?

Agh....

by Timbo02 on Oct 23, 2006 6:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't know about commercials
But check this out:

"Because of perennially low ratings for all Saturday night programming, baseball and Fox are switching the start of the World Series to Tuesday beginning next year."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2636380

Tues, wed in first city, fri, sat, sun in second, then tues, wed again?  Or are they going to skip an extra day in the middle?  

You either get all the glory or all the... goat hair. -mike shannon

by SleepyCA on Oct 23, 2006 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cheating?
I cheated on my wife today and when confronted I just told her 60-70% of guys do it..she said just go wash off.
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 23, 2006 6:40 PM EDT reply actions  

lmfao
i have to say that is about as funny as i have seen on here, very glad i wasnt drinking something, cause it would have been out the nose

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 23, 2006 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

New Ad Campaign

Got a tired arm?
Not much movement?
Feeling like your ERA is at an all time high?
Try Crisco! Studies have shown that 60% of pitchers who use our product notice a difference! Pitch like Carlton or Paige with Crisco! In fact, Ed Harris and Kenny Rogers perfer it 2-1 against other leading enhancers! So buy it today!

Warning: Some managers might notice a "funny" movement on your pitch, but not to worry! Crisco also washes off easier than the other leading brands and leaves no residue!

I'm just here for the Bud Light...

by OKCardsfan on Oct 23, 2006 7:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Sorry to change the subject, but
I just found out that I'm going to game 5. I've been geeking out for 90 minutes!!!!!!!!

A friend of a friend knows Harry Carey's daughter, so i'm gonna be sitting down near field level. Or something like that.

Should be able to look for pinetar from that close to the diamond...

by effin fisk on Oct 23, 2006 7:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Holy cow
if the moon is made out of cheese would you eat it?
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 23, 2006 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its a Simple Question
...just say you'd eat the moon if it were made of cheese and we'll move on!

by EckEqualsClutch on Oct 23, 2006 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Harry's daughter
can get a hold of his glasses, you'll definitely be able to spot pine tar.

There hasn't been a prescription that strong since the Hubble Space Telescope got corrective eyewear.

by player2bnamedl8r on Oct 23, 2006 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, no way you're going
You have a deadline on Friday. Let me tell you what, you can have my job and I will take your tickets...

And, yes, VEB nation...I am effin's boss:-)

You'd better bring me a t-shirt, whippersnapper.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Oct 24, 2006 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Game 4
I just wanted to get a feel from all of you as to whether you think/hear that Game 4 will be rained out or not.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2006 7:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I sort of hope so
I loved his moxie the other night, but I'd still rather see Soup than Reyes.

by effin fisk on Oct 23, 2006 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reyes goes
In game 5, Soup in game 4.

by liam on Oct 23, 2006 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah
got my rain dates confused for a minute there.

by effin fisk on Oct 24, 2006 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Robertson Long Lay-off Stats
I was watching Robertsons press conference today and one of the reporters asked if he had ever pitched on long lay off before and he mentioned his start after the all-star break which was 10 days total lay-off.

He lost that start 7-1.

His stats
6.2IP  9H  6ER  1BB  6K  2HR

Just some more info......

by stlcardi70 on Oct 23, 2006 8:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks for pointing that out
The boxscore is here. Looking at his gamelog, you have to admire Robertson's durability (also his control). That's the only game I saw all year where he didn't go every fifth or sixth day.

by liam on Oct 23, 2006 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tony
Let me start by saying that I'm more likely than most to agree with or defend Tony but I really believe that he's handled this whole thing correctly.  First of all, at the end of the inning, after Rogers has left the mound and told that he's busted, what's he going to get done.  But more importantly, he can use this in the clubhouse to get people angry and focused.  Plus, the Tigers have got to feel a little bit on the defensive.  When Rogers takes the mound in Game 6, he's gonna have to be as clean as he's been since he's left the womb.  He's also going to have in the back of his mind, "When are they going to come check me?"  I can't help but believe he'll be less effective as a result.

Tony's mantra "We'll win this the right way" can be used in the clubhouse as "We'll beat them no matter how badly they cheat!"  On top of all of that, MLB and Big Bud have all the video they need should they decide to actually grow a pair and do something about it.  I'm not sure Tony could have realistically done more during the game so he was right to take the vow of silence w/ the press.  He'll use it in the clubhouse to his advantage.

This will be the last thing I'll say about this whole debacle:  How bad will it be if Rogers pitches well in game 6, the Tigers win the World Series, and Rogers becomes the MVP?  It will be one of the biggest shams in the history of the game!

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

I forgot to mention
that the players don't need this distraction.  By refusing to talk about it, he can control the message w/ the team and try to get them focused on games 3, 4, and 5.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree..
this all smells but its over.  Team needs to use it for motivation and let the dipshits at ESPN and the various other news agencies convict Rogers.  The team should stay out of the fray.  Time to stop beating this dead horse and just be extra sensitive to everything Rogers does unless the Birds finish them in 5.  Houston, whereabouts you reside in H-Town?  I'm in the vicinity as well.

by Cards67 on Oct 23, 2006 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Richmond
how about you?  There are several of us here.  Podlol is in Nassau Bay.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2006 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am up...
in The Woodlands.  Good to have a few fellow birds fans in Astro territory.  Born and raised just across the river from St. Louis.

by Cards67 on Oct 23, 2006 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK...
a Tiger fan just claimed to me that the umpire said he checked Rogers and didn't find anything.  Anyone seen or heard that?
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 8:40 PM EDT reply actions  

nope
I got an email from a Tigers fan who claims it was pine tar.
Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
this Tigers fan doesn't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer.  The basics of spelling, punctuation and grammar escape him, and he honestly advocated legalizing performance-enhancing drugs because "it makes the game more entertaining."
Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan
Redbirds Fun

by Quietude on Oct 23, 2006 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

plus...
... we've sort of got all the evidence we need in photos and video. this fan is blinded by bias, i'm afraid.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

nope.
in fact, Gammons directly contradicted it, and did Jx's friend "Mike".

if he found nothing, then why did the ump tell Rogers to go wash up? makes no sense.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what exactly
did Gammons have to say about the manner, and how did he manage to tie in the red sox?
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 23, 2006 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

he didn't mention Boston...
... but he said that the umps were on the same plane as him, and admitted that it was pine tar but decided against ejecting Rogers because it would be a better game with Rogers pitching than with a parade of guys from the bullpen.

it's on the front of ESPN's MLB page in the video section (ESPN Motion) on the right-hand side.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'd rather have a bullpen
than a cheater.

the umps should lose their jobs as a result of this for not ejecting him.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 23, 2006 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i posted this several hours ago...
... i agree completely. if they can't be trusted with this, then they shouldn't be given control of the rest of the Series.

by kindred on Oct 23, 2006 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

So was Gammons OK with that?
Basically, the idea that it's the umps' job to decide who should be pitching, or how "good" the game should be?

That's just outrageous.  I'm speechless.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 23, 2006 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

unreal
just unreal, and he didnt mention boston? it was a joke this commedian does a gammons no tthe best, but the joke is always saying something about boston
Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Oct 24, 2006 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Apparently
KR had the same smudge in the same area in a regular season game vs the white sox in july.
 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.7.html

by jacqle on Oct 23, 2006 11:07 PM EDT reply actions  

dave top ten
top 10 signs a baseball player is cheating
#1 His nick name is "Needle @$$"
#2 Pete Rose called him a disgrace to the game.

I don't have the rest...

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
Evident the Wash, Mr. Rogers

by cardsfan84 on Oct 24, 2006 12:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Akinori Iwamura
what does everyone think of him? I just glanced at his stats and he doesn't seem that bad.

by tnek5 on Oct 24, 2006 1:06 AM EDT reply actions  

As a starting 2B?
Probably not the worst option.  For comparison's sake, here is Iwamura, and two other Japanese 2B that came to the majors (consider that Kaz and Iguchi both came from the Pacific league, rather than Iwamura's Central league, which my Japanese friends consider more competitive):

Iwamura
Kazuo Matsui
Tadahito Iguchi

For a better idea of how the Japanese Central league's offensive stats might translate, consider Hideki "Godzilla" Matsui.

by Valatan on Oct 24, 2006 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

It would come down to cost.
I still don't really understand the posting system.

by Valatan on Oct 24, 2006 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

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