St. Louis Cardinals & Yadier Molina Make Extension Official
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 3:10 PM EST
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Earlier in the week, Ken Rosenthal of FOX sports broke the news that the St. Louis Cardinals and catcher Yadier Molina had agreed in principle on a contract extension that would be 5 years in length and worth $75 million. All that remained was to iron out the details and an official announcement would likely be made by Friday. It's Thursday and the deal was officially announced at a press conference in Jupiter. The extension keeps Molina in The Birds On The Bat for an additional five seasons, through 2017, with a total six-year value of $82 million.
The trickling in of details on Twitter regarding extensions can be somewhat confusing and the Molina contract is no exception. Rosenthal took to Twitter this morning and announced the deal to be 5 years and $75 million with no money deferred. A bit before Rosenthal's tweet, Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported the following:
Various reports have pegged the deal at five years and $70 million or more. By adding five years to the end of this season, the Cardinals would fold his $7-million salary for 2012 into the total value of the deal and arrive at an annual average salary of around $12.5 million during the five-year extension.
When this was brought to Rosenthal's attention, the bow-tied FOX Sports correspondent replied:
@RobillardMatt I see your point, but the extension is 5/75. They can portray it however they like.
— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) March 1, 2012
Indeed.
As my dad is fond of saying, "the devil is in the details," so let's have a look at them.
Molina's 2012 salary will stay the same at $7 million. Like Ryan Howard's extension with the Phillies, the Molina extension will start after his current contract ends. Thus, Rosenthal's valuation of it is a more accurate portrayal than the one given to Goold by his source before the announcement. Rather than 6 years, $75 million, it's something more like 6 years, $82 million. The deal is guaranteed through the 2017 season and has a mutual option for 2018 that is worth $15 million. The contract includes a no-trade clause, a provision that covers Molina until his rights as a player with ten years of MLB time, five of which with the same team, kick in under the collective bargaining agreement. Goold's reporting that the deal "could reach $88 million" seems to indicate that incentives are included. Until we know what the incentives are for, it is difficult to assess the potential $88 million figure.
That the Cardinals chose to extend him this spring, when Molina is unquestionably at his peak value, demonstrates a desire to lock him in as a Cardinal. The decision carries with it risk for the club. A lot of things could happen during the 2012 season. Molina could suffer an injury. His production could fall from his career-best 2012 season to something on par with his career numbers from 2004-2010. Before the extension, hose were Molina's risks; now they are shouldered by the Cardinals. This is why extensions that appear to be at about the going market rate often strike us as misguided from the club's perspective. Shouldn't the player recognize the reality of the risks he runs by accepting a lower salary? This understandable mindset often downplays the club's risks. Molina may have another very good offensive season. Independent of that, if Molina were to hit the open market, it only takes one Arte Moreno type (perhaps even Moreno himself, in this instance) to swoop in and blow DeWallet out of DeWater. Taking all of this into account, the Cardinals agreed to an extension that effectively creates a six-year contract worth $82 million.
The AAV over the six years Molina is under contract equals $13.6 million, an amount that provides less sticker shock than the $15 million AAV of the extension standing alone. No matter how one portrays it, however, Molina's extension is one of the richest ever given to a catcher. Mauer sits atop the catcher AAV rankings at $23 million. Jorge Posada received $13.1 million in AAV from the Yankees on a four-year deal. Then there's Mike Piazza's seven-year, $91 million contract with the Mets, which works out to a $13 million AAV. Jason Kendall, Ivan Rodriguez, and Jason Varitek all signed for a $10 million AAV with the Pirates, Tigers, and Red Sox respectively.
Molina stands apart from the other catchers to have received huge paydays--Mauer, Piazza, Kendall, Posada, and Rodriguez--because he is not an elite offensive player (even though his 2011 was very good). Molina's defensive reputation is one of excellence. This is where the valuation of his play becomes tricky to properly assess. The area of catcher defense is, as DanUp wrote so well in his must-read Tuesday post, "special sauce." As if to support DanUp, Fangraphs released this week updated WAR calculations for catchers that take blocking pitches in the dirt into account. The leader over the 2008-2011 span the updated calculation covers is Molina. Thus, this new fWAR calculation sees Molina's 2011 fWAR shoot up to 4.7 and his fWAR for 2008-2011 increase to 14.8.*
*SecondHalfMatt raised a good point in the comments. Molina's old fWAR totals are not included. From 2008 to 2011, Molina's cumulative fWAR total rose from 12.7 to 14.8. For the 2011 season, Molina's fWAR rose from 4.1 to 4.7.
That we know catcher defense is the final frontier of sabermetrics and the inclusion of just one component of it can see such a jump in Molina's value makes it easy to believe that the Cardinals, who contract with TruMedia networks to give them pitch-by-pitch video analysis, have a firm handle on the secret sauce aspect of Molina's value. Whether this would be reflected in the bidding on Molina were he to hit free agency, we will never know. That Molina is widely renowned as the game's best defensive catcher makes it a possibility that cannot be dismissed out of hand.
In addition to the black and white numbers, Molina's status amongst Cardinals fans undoubtedly plays a role in our willingness to strain our logic into pretzel-like shapes to justify the deal. After all, this is the man who hit the go-ahead homer off Aaron Heilman in Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS, grinning as the ball cleared the Shea Stadium wall "like Charlie Brown after sex." His throwing arm has become legendary, as well, with no bigger fan reaction during Game 1 of the 2011 World Series than when he gunned down Ian Kinsler. Then there is the endearing combination of his pudgy physique and neck tattoos. It's no wonder that fans name their pets after him. Molina's appearance, defense, and clutchyness have carved out a unique place in the hearts of fans, one that he will occupy through 2017 at least. I'm okay with this, even if the numbers can't entirely show me why.
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is there a mod around?
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:16 PM EST reply actions
did someone touch you in a bad place?
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Mar 1, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
no i have an honest question that needs a mod to answer
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yes it's natural,
and no, you won’t go blind.
by openside on Mar 1, 2012 3:27 PM EST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
this is where "undeserved" comes in.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
ugh. that takes work and stuff.
bgh, if you’re reading, you’ve got mail
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I'm mod enough to see you got banned from Rock Chalk Jayhawk and nosey enough to ask why.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
they claim my page looks pretty dirty...
and that i “get banned from half the sites he’s ever joined”
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
(so i'm trying to find out how "dirty" i look to mods network wide looking at my page)
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it looks bad, but I also encourage bad behavior.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
so...
saying i get banned from half the sites i visit is exaggerating it?
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
There’s nothing on there that would raise my eyebrows compared to any other generic user profile.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
thanks.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
So... apparently you get undeserved crap at other sites, too
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Mar 1, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
something like that.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
the guys are the mizzou blog are actually pretty cool.
and it’s the only other sb nation site i participate in even semi-regularly, so you guys have nothing to worry about.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I'm confused. You haven't posted on RCT even once, and the mods banned you anyway? Talk about insecure...
By gosh!
by hr on Mar 1, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
this is correct.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say "insecure" indeed.
Looks like you’ve been banned only once but Field Gulls lifted the ban, so I’m not sure what’s up.
You do get a lot of comments deleted or hidden though.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
really? from where?
and i forgot you had keys to car at TST. get me some of those.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I probably shouldn't say anything since I've been m.i.a. for awhile there
but they still let me come in and eat leftovers from the fridge so I don’t complain too much. ;-)
as far as hidden and deleted comments, a lot are from here and from RMN.
I’m not entirely sure the difference between “hidden” and “deleted” messages are, but it might have something to do with threads that get deleted and while you my not have been the actual comment that got deleted, everything below it goes away.
not every “infraction” has a reason with it but you do have a very nice warning from one lboros which is vintage and something to put on your mantle.
I almost feel like a warning from Larry was like a badge of honor or signified moving into a new phase in life.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
hah.
i’d imagine that hidden means that the thread was hidden and that my comment itself wasn’t actually deleted. deleted means i made the offending comment, though again, i’m still interested in what i did. i wish i were a mod somewhere, it sounds real fun to be able to stalk people’s profiles like that.
and yeah, the warning from larry was after i called ryan braun a piece of shit in 2008. i then went to the brewers website and defended my comment and was promptly warned there. a mature kid i once was.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Braun
he’s doing his best to live up to that moniker lately.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
my history at SB nation is impressive.
i’d change my name to get rid of my history….but damn, that’s 6+ years and 35K+ comments i’d be throwing away. i’ll keep the name.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
mods can see certain things us peons can't.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I can only imagine what mine looks like.
Thanks azru.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Hey, You got any experience with
OBD2 bluetooth sensor?
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 1, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
not really,
the shops I was working in were just starting to use them when I left.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
RCT is the single most sensitive site in the world
Complimenting KU can get you banned there. Shocking the KU fans would take themselves too seriously, shocking I tell you.
Not afraid to nitpick
Especially since that chant has been turned into everything from
ROCK! CHOKE! JAYHAWK! to SUCK! C***! JAYHAWK! the sense of humor should certainly be there
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
That and nobody knows what the fuck Rock Chalk Jayhawk means or what it has to do with a sports team
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Mar 1, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OOOO Have I been banned anywhere yet?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
really?!
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
There's only 3 that I know of
and to keep myself neutral between Danup and Fritz over here, I’m going to say Aaron Hooks. Ha.
By gosh!
by hr on Mar 1, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
thank you for the check!
I’m subscribed to way too many of them to check individually
By gosh!
by hr on Mar 1, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Your turn to draft again ?
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Mar 1, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
it is.
i’m waiting for my google docs to like work again and stuff.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Need an update on who has been picked lately ?
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Mar 1, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
just made my pick.
joe mauer in the fifth?! pshyeah
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
You had Mauer
ahead of Posey ?
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Mar 1, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
yup
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
If he gets the 09 MVP Mauer with an OPS of 1.031 it’ll be a steal
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Mar 1, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Posey's behind Mauer, Santana, and Napoli for me.
Actually, my ranking goes Carlos Santana -———— everybody else.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Mar 1, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
When yadier place his last game as a Cardinal
assuming the mutual option isn’t picked up, does he get to sit in this chair?
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Mar 1, 2012 3:21 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
place=plays?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
OT
what’s a better resource to rely on for contract values: B-R or Cot’s? In a discussion with a friend about Yadi making more than Albert ever did with the Cardinals, and B-R says the most he ever made was $14M and some change, while Cot’s says $16M
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
any reason why, in particular?
is it because it includes deferred money?
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
they give you a full breakdown of the contract
whereas BRef is just guaranteed money
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
I voted no
Because I think I don’t like the deal. But to be honest, I’m not really sure what I think.
I'm with you.
If we’re going to print money, at least it’s going to Yadi.
by openside on Mar 1, 2012 3:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I like Yadi, but let's not pretend he's a future HOFer
I’m just not really sure I buy the whole “there’s a significant surplus intangible value for keeping Yadi a Cardinal” argument.
What would Yadi need to do to become a HoF?
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Mar 1, 2012 4:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
jus keep smiling.
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
Invent a time machine
His obp & slg % would be the lowest of any catcher inducted outside of the dead ball era (okay, he has a slight edge on Ferrell in slg) Yadi just doesn’t have the pop required by the BBWAA.
Why?
Sabermetrics are just now starting to fill in the gaps of our understanding as it applies to catcher defense. His value has already taken a significant jump just from adding blocked balls, which is only one aspect of a complex formula.
Given what we hear from the staff, he is also instrumental in working with the pitchers on strategy and game-calling, which, while not currently quantifiable, is almost certainly valuable in some fashion. His intangibles aren’t of the “leadership” and “chemistry” sort, which are much more nebulous and probably very low in value.
I would also be of the opinion that we've already seen Yadi at his best
Sure if he defended as well as he did from say 2004-2008ish and hit as well as he did in 2009 and 2011 for another 4 or 5 years he’d have a shot, but I just don’t think that will happen.
For everyone who makes a comment about the value of catcher of defense as it relates to "working with pitchers," "intangibles" and the like...
I’m going to post this article.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16096
You’ll notice that this analysis includes the effect of framing. And that in total runs saved from 2008-2011, Yadi is not in the top ten, and by rate basis he’s likely to be a lot lower since his PAs would be very high from 2008-2011. This anlaysis does NOT include blocking pitches or the running game (SB/CS).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah he's +8 over 4 years
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhCbCTYVXQzKdERjdXJLTDJqbzYzMnZzQkxxUHdUTVE#gid=0
So essentially no value.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Do you think that this analysis accurately gauges what it purports to,
and do you think there are any other important “intangibles” that aren’t measured here?
I remember reading a couple of different articles last year that bemoaned how incomplete catcher defense valuation is, and another that tore apart the idea of catcher ERA.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
possibly
but there’s no evidence that Yadi is really that good at intangibles
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
you take that back this instant
you hear!
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
No, but there's a lot of evidence that
people who work with him on a daily basis believe that he is. I understand that we can’t simple accept it’s true based on it, but I don’t discount it entirely, either. (Cue Mike Scioscia and Jeff Mathis discussion)
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
difference here is that
Molina never hit below .200
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
yeah, i'm sure every pitcher is going to say their catchers help them out
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
True, but it seems like some go out of their way to talk about it a whole lot more than others.
We’re getting anecdotal here, but I tend to think that their is more comfort and trust between our guys and Yadi than average. His +TORC must be in the 120’s!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
have you met zambrano
but it’s not just the pitchers. It’s the coaches too. His last pitching coach happened to be a catcher, and his new manager is also a catcher.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Oh my goodness. You just made me re-read this section of today's discussion.
I just noticed what I did in the post just above yours. Kill me now.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
whoa! no need to go full sexton over a typo, fink.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
believe so. sometimes i unconsciously steal phrases from others. but google turns up nothing.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
steal away. anne sexton did the heavy lifting, so to speak.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
do you really want to hurt me?
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Mar 2, 2012 9:23 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
do you really want to make me cry
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 2, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not getting your self correction
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, "met" looked correct to me.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
o/
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
You two are the reason I briefly considered going full sexton.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
what in the hell is this full sexton you speak of?
didn’t get it from you and tom’s discussion
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Anne Sexton killed herself.
(she also wrote some very good poetry that has inspired lots of very bad poetry)
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
and how do i and ISIGARA move you in that direction?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
IIRC, both of you are quick to correct certain grammar errors,
and the full sexton moment is in reference to a their/there error I made.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
I, on the other hand, understood the reference.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
i didn't notice your grammatical error and i'm sure i'm guilty of plenty
myself. my compulsion is completely different than that.
but good night finkster and VEB
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
i was just giving you trouble. g'night!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Mar 1, 2012 11:48 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
you spelled goodnight wrong
i keed, i keed
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 2, 2012 4:43 AM EST up reply actions
is this similar to a porn movie rating in penthouse?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
(i was perhaps thinking of sextant and how it measures angles)
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
(You were perhaps thinking of porn movies and penthouse magazine)
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
(keep that on the down low)
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
\o
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
\o
sorry to leave you hanging, went off on an internet fishing expedition for the name of the bakery item from a Seinfeld episode.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
No, it's kreplach.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
The problem that I have with most of these studies is separating the pitcher's contribution to the catcher's contribution.
A catcher could be the best in the world at working with a staff, but the members of the staff still have to make the pitches.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I haven't read any of these types of articles for a couple of years so bear with me.
How do they weight for pitcher decline in the “with Catcher A/without Catcher A” analysis? I think of someone like Kip Wells, who had okay seasons elsewhere, but didn’t have any success in St. Louis. It seemed like his pitches just floated up there to get slugged. Or Sidney Ponson, who had very good seasons before coming to the Cardinals, but was a fat shell of his former self in St. Louis. Or, more recently, Jake Westbrook. He was great in 2010 with the Cardinals but walked a lot of batters in 2011.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, that was something discussed in one of the articles I mentioned above.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
I feel like
Yadi has been credited for being a big part of Duncan’s system the last few years. I tend to trust that- I don’t know if that’s the intangibles we’re talking about here.
Because Matheny
Yeah, that's a good example.
Now, how true it is, and, if true, how useful it will be going forward is pretty much beyond our knowledge.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
I think the main point is that the methodolgy is sound
and that I haven’t seen anything better. I’d be happy to look at other systematic studies to see how they come out on these issues.
Moreover, I’d rather incorporate something like this into my analysis than to just rely on a catcher’s friends (his pitchers) saying nice things about him.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
they could use some type of catcher era and instead of adjusting for ballparks adjust for league average pitchers or something along those lines...
call it Catchers Adjusted ERA ….. CAE
was that so hard?
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
just got dumped by my girlfriend apu
so over did it with the next one (yadi)
mark my words, if you want,
this will be a bad deal for the birds
12 in 12, thank you very much
I voted no too
I’m not irate over this contract by any means, but I do suspect we overpaid. I’ll probably change my mind in 10 minutes after I spend a little time thinking about Yadi teaching Shelby Miller the deep secrets of pitching.
We have a lot of young, potential pitchers coming up over the next 6 years
Who better to teach them than Yadi now that DD is gone?
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Mar 1, 2012 4:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I need a "Meh, I'm on the fence" option.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Mar 1, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
You kind of forget Molina is still in his twenties
What surprises me the the most is the lack of deferred money.
Think of it as a
6/82 contract, with a big chunk of the 2012 money deferred into the last 5 years.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 1, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Good, I suppose we can all look at Kyle Lohse's contract as a 5yr/45MM deal.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Bernie suggests we should look at the entire career of the player and how much he was paid
In his post today. This is just ridiculous.
That's absurd.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed, here is the quote:
Some fans already are whining over the Cardinals’ keeping Molina in place with a five-year deal that will average almost $15 million per season. I prefer to take the long view in the Cardinals’ investment in Molina.
I’m taking into account what they have been playing him over the last five seasons, including the $7 million salary this year. Including 2012 Molina will receive a total of $21.5 million for the past five seasons. (There may be a signing bonus added to this year’s $7 million payout, but that won’t increase the total amount of money distributed to Molina as part of the new five-year agreement.)
If in fact the Molina extension averages $15 million a year, it means that the Cardinals will lay out $75 million for five years beginning in 2013. But if we take the entire investment in Molina over his last two contracts, it comes down to this: the Cardinals will have received 10 years of vintage Molina performance, with two World Series titles already in the safe, for an average of $9.6 million per year.
"...10 years of vintage Molina performance..."
His rookie season was 2004, when he was Matheny’s backup. He’s been the starter since 2005. That’s 7 years of “vintage Molina performance,” right? So, moving forward, it could be 13 years by the end of his extension. What are these “last two contracts?” Where is this “10 years of vintage Molina performance” for an AAV of $9.6MM coming from? I’m confused.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
it's not entirely accurate, but here's what I believe Bernie is doing:
Contract #1
Including 2012 Molina will receive a total of $21.5 million for the past five seasons.
+
Contract #2
the Cardinals will lay out $75 million for five years beginning in 2013.
=$96.5 million over 10 years, or, $9.6 million a year.
He's not counting years 04-07 (team controlled?)
Just his first extension from 08-11 with option for 12 and this latest one.
well, the rays are going to be very surprised when they end up paying longoria $30m until he's 45, aren't they?
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
It could just be me
but Bernie’s become awfully prickly. It doesn’t seem like he can write a single column without calling someone an idiot or a twit or that they’re whining or delusional. Disagree with him at all and he calls you names.
bs, nothing but
so bernie would go back to a restaurant where he had a good early bird special
and give them more money so he felt better?
12 in 12, thank you very much
"still in his twenties"
He’s hardly that. He turns 30 in July, for pete’s sake.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Necktats4life!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Mar 1, 2012 3:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
the thing I liked about the deal is that it locked Molina up
until his age 35 season. Not his age 40 season. There may be a drop off between 30-35. But there is a freakin cliff after that age 35.
Grit != flat out sucking.
100% Agree
that is what has been missed in the Tulo, Kemp, Braun and Zimmerman extensions the teams are betting that it is less risky to jump the gun and get a small discount on 30-35 than it is to wait untill 30-31 and be forced to pay for 35-38
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Just imagine life without Molina as a Cardinal
It would be terrible. There really isn’t a lot of solid catchers out there.
I have just replaced Molina with McCann, Montero, or Napoli in my mind
I’m feeling okay about things.
this whole contract seems completely impossible to evaluate right now.
the metrics are flawed and there’s very little precedent for his market value.
Instead, I’ve decided to say “yayyy i like yadi hes good at baseballs”
by purple_haze on Mar 1, 2012 3:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'm gonna vote yes, for some of the reasons listed already.
The biggest point is how he manages a game and makes almost every pitcher he works with better. This will be even more true when the young guys start coming up through the ranks. If he can make 5 million dollar pitcher worth 6 mil, and do that for five guys, you get some of your money back.
I voted yes.
Essentially the Cardinals decided that the risk of losing Molina in FA was higher than the risk associated with this deal. Given the dearth of other viable catching options out there, I think there is a case to be made that they are right.
Given what happened to his WAR from a single catcher defense addition, I would not be at all surprised if we come to find out that he has been much more valuable than we believe currently. I also think that Molina may be the rare player that has significant intangibles that affect his value; he is more necessary now that Duncan is retired, and the team probably wants him around especially in the next 2-3 years in order to teach the young pitchers coming up the Duncan Magic.
Add in the hometown icon effect and I completely understand the team not wanting to give Yadi the chance to walk in FA and ending up with a black hole at catcher for a few years.
I voted yes as well
I mean, look at the long-term contracts the good players have been getting recently. Pujols, Darvish, Buehrle, Heath Bell…I’m not going to go into the numbers, but I can’t think of any recent deals with a well-established player which was considered a steal for the team. Even Holliday’s contract, which many criticized as an overpay a few years ago, looks not bad now.
If Molina went to free agency, it was inevitable that someone would overpay him to be their catcher. If the Cardinals were going to keep Molina for the next few years, they were going to have to overpay to match this outcome. At least this deal assures us that we won’t have to enter the Montero sweepstakes next year.
By gosh!
by hr on Mar 1, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
the secret is to not be one of those teams
birds have now set market for napoli et al, and they are tickled pink
i just see no way that next summer yadi of 30.5 yrs of age
would get 15m per from anyone
he’s not albert
no big records to drive income
a no no for jmo
apu left, no reason to panic
12 in 12, thank you very much
It's very possible that Yadi
is very good at controlling the running game and blocking pitches, which are the things that are measured by WAR, and not so valuable at other parts of catcher defense. Basically, it’s possible that WAR overvalues Yadi right now.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
He's rated slightly above average by the framing studies, so WAR likely doesn't overvalue him
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
There's going to be some play in all these numbers.
For example the new version of FWAR for catchers gives significantly more runs-saved for blocking pitches than show in this article
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16006
(which for Yadi comes to an average of less than 2 runs per year saved from 2008-2011).
In any event, my point is only that people may be wrongly assuming that Yadi is “great” at all facets of “secret sauce” defense when in fact he could be good at some and bad at others.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
If we go by VEP's +8 runs, it would value him about right.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
YADI DABBA DOOO
Yadi. Signed the Yadi
He’s the greatest catcher of them all
Born in Puerto Rico
Committing to the Gateway City
When you watch the Yadi
He’ll throw behind runners at first base
and catch stealers too
We’ll have a grand old time.
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Mar 1, 2012 4:07 PM EST reply actions
CANNOT QUANTIFY
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 4:14 PM EST via Android app reply actions
Did I miss where it says what Yadi's previous WAR numbers were?
As in before the blocking balls was added? It might give better context
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Mar 1, 2012 4:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
From 2008-2011, his cumulative fWAR went from 12.7 to 14.8.
His 2011 fWAR went from 4.1 to 4.7.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, he needs 2 more years of playing time.
Found out last year that players need 10 seasons before being eligible.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks.
That is a pretty big leap for just one defensive metric. It will be interesting to see how much it goes up as more defensive metrics are added in.
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Mar 1, 2012 5:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
where's the "meh" option?
i don’t think it’s terrible. i think it has a lot of risk, which is probably not properly controlled for in its cost. i probably would not have pursued the same course in mozeliak’s place. but i think the deal has arguable merit. a “cautious yes?” would also fit.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
On risk
When you say it has a lot of risk, are you saying that because it’s risky to lock up anyone for 5 years, or because you specifically see risk in signing Yadi to that long of a contract, based on his age, and lack of “big” injury to date?
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
length. yadi's age. what seems to me little discount for the fact it's made a season in advance.
the usual response, especially as contracts get longer and riskier, is to provide a substantial discount. so, in a 1-year contract, where the risk of injury is fairly low, the price should almost match the expected value of the player when healthy. as the contract gets longer, there should be a greater and greater discount because the risk to the club increases. i don’t really see that accounted for in the current contract.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
That's fair
I wonder how much of this contract was due to the fact that we don’t really have a good Plan B. Who’s our best minor league catcher (that could be major-league ready starting 2013)?
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
I don't think analyzing the contract on the basis of what might be Plan B in 2-6 years is a good one.
I don’t remember people analyzing whether the Ryan Howard extension was a good one based on the Phillies’ 1B prospects. This is the same thing with other FA contracts and extensions (both good and bad)
One of the fundamental underpinnings of WAR/$ analysis is that it’s linear and the same across positions. Basically, that even if the Cards employed a worse catcher than Yadi next year, they could have spent that money on a better player at another position and ended up with the same overall benefit.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
they learned nothing from howard's contract
injury
or even braun, who did a no-no
12 in 12, thank you very much
Your point about Howard is true.
On the other hand, they can pretty easily obtain a player of Howard’s value on the open market for <$10 million. So I think that comparison is pretty irrelevant.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Mar 1, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
concept
I agree,I think the Howard reference is purely theatrical.
by RasmustheRipper on Mar 2, 2012 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Gotta think of marketability of the franchise, yadis fans, his way of swaying umps, his play calling, etc
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 4:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
i can think of it, but i'm not sure how to value it. i doubt that, cumulatively, those factors make up for the risks that
yadi has a catastrophic injury or becomes ineffective in the later years of the contract.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
While i tend to agree with that
This franchise can swing from not affording a player to a money is no object sort of attitude pretty quickly… Which almost makes evaluating many contracts verydifficult
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 5:28 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I'm just on the other side of the coin
going with an “optimistic no?”
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
sorry, just saw your comment.
feeble minds think alike or something.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Heh, no you were first.
I just hadn’t scrolled down far enough yet.
I’d say something inspiring here, but meh.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Mar 1, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Has anyone brought up concussions in this?
Yadi’s had a few (that we know of), and they’ve ended the careers of Matheny and LaRue. I guess plan B would be to move Yadi to 1st if it gets to that?
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
His bat won't play
at first base imho
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Mar 1, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
But it's surfin' berry punch!
C’mon, have a sip. Everyone’s having some.
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
I cant think of any reason to play yadi at first
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 4:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
because you don't want to play him at 2nd, shortstop, 3rd, outfield or pitching?
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
this. especially late in the contract after his offense has declined as well.
yadi’s MAYBE a 1 WAR player at first right now. four years from now he’d likely be sub-replacement level there.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
I've never heard of him having a concussion.
When did these happen?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
I could have swore there was more than one reported
I recall watching a game in person at Pittsburgh in 2005 when he got popped pretty good by Ty Wiggington on a play at the plate. Edmonds made an awesome throw to nail Wiggington, and by some miracle Yadi didn’t drop it when he got bowled over. Incredible.
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
The Cardinals do brain scans of players to measure the effects of concussions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not sure i'd recommend anybody continue to play in the face of concussions. i think if yadi reached brian roberts/matheny
status two years into his contract, i would talk to him about taking a negotiated portion of his remaining contract to retire.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
really? if someone is cripplingly injured with years left on their contract? MLBPA would prefer that players be forced
to choose between retirement without any compensation (the team is absolved from the contract if you retire) and hobbling along, vacillating between DL and half-performance on the field, just so they can recoup the full value of their contract? i seriously doubt that.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
see, e.g., gil meche’s retirement
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I believe McGwire's retirement also saved the Cardinals some money, didn't it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 1, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
He retired instead of signing a new contract, IIRC.
Not quite the same situation.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He walked away from a $30 million extension
The 38-year-old McGwire batted .187 with 29 homers in his final season as he struggled to recover from a knee injury that also cost him half of 2000. He walks away from a $30 million, two-year contract extension that he agreed to in spring training but never signed.
I’m not sure why that would be different from retiring during a contract.
well, because he never signed it.
Also, that was under a different CBA. I think if he signed it, the Cards would have had to pay it.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
not if he retired of his own accord
On Tuesday, Gil Meche finished off his contract in the most unbelievable way — perhaps the most unbelievable finish in major league baseball history: He walked away from the money. He retired, at age 32. He left behind $12.4 million guaranteed that was legally and rightfully his, because he had determined that he could not help the Kansas City Royals anymore.
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
I was just about to post this
If you retire, under any CBA, the club won’t have to pay you.
It wouldn’t make any sense otherwise. What if Pujols told the Angels tomorrow he wanted to retire?
All I'm saying, is that I don't know what the cba terms were in 01.
To hear TLR tell it, Mac was an upstanding guy, because he didn’t sign the contract, knowing he couldn’t fulfill it.
Also, shut it, Limey.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
thats it
you live in one of those cold states right?
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
Yes, it's a fricking blizzard right now.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Everyone looks at the rest of the FA Catcher class...
and says that it is a weak class, but in all honesty, when do you have as many catchers who have produced as Montero, Martin, McCann, Ianneta, and Ruiz have from behind the plate? There are other options out there, but since as a fan we value Yadi so much, it seems like there isn’t anything out there.
Did anyone else notice that once the Yadi extension seemed to be in place, the Yankees began negotiating with Russell Martin? You know they Yankees would have made a push for Yadi with Martin being a FA, their top catching prospect being traded to Seattle, and their next catching prospect a few years away.
The Red Sox have Salty, but do you think they wouldn’t make a run at Yadi?
The Angels would be appealing with Scioscia as the Mgr and long time friend Albert playing there?
Would the Marlins be after Yadi to play with Guillen in the heart of Miami with the big splash they have made this offseason?
Would you really want to get into an open market with the winner being the highest bidder?
I believe the cost of keeping Molina with this contract can’t be looked at by what fair market value is, but a price greater than that because of all the interest around baseball for a top level catcher. I don’t think the Cardinals could risk those other teams driving up the price of Molina in an open market and have ended up paying for it now, even though I think on the open market, Yadi would have pulled more than 5/75.
did you take that picture jumsy? quite nice
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
What bothers me about that
Is moreso him taking up a roster spot and blowing games than the money
/obvious
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 5:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
ok, who did this?
from Nyjer Morgan’s wikipedia page:
On September 7, 2011, Morgan created two posts on his twitter account mocking Albert Pujols and the St. Louis Cardinals “Alberta couldn’t see Plush if she had her gloves on!!! Wat was she thinking running afta Plush!!! She never been n tha ring!!!”, " Where still n 1st and I hope those crying birds injoy watching tha Crew in tha Playoffs!!! Aaaaahhhhh!!! ". The Cardinals would end up making the playoffs, beating the Brewers in the NLCS, and go on to win the World Series. 22
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
Morgan did
He doesn’t understand the irony. He still is clinging to getting first in the NL Central.
I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.
You know, he was right.
I did injoy watching tha Crew in tha Playoffs.
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
by peppermartin on Mar 1, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude doesnt even know how to spell enjoy
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:12 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Then again hes an athlete, not always the smartest people around
(not that memorizing spelling means youre smart)
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:15 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Problem with t plush is he aint all that but he thinks he is
Total dbag
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:20 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
They should have that quote under having your ass handed to you in the dictionary
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:22 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
MY concern about Molina, going forward, "may" have been agravated with this news
to wit, I have been hoping that he will get more rest and off time, as soon as LAST year (didn’t happen) so that his career could be extended. In short I worry about the “he’s making everyday player money, he has to PLAY every day” thinking.
Hopefully, ex-catcher Matheny will save Yadi’s hammies some.
Maybe I exaggerate Tony Cruz’ ‘versatility’ but I would be happy to see us carry three ‘catchers’ on the roster, especially if the third guy (not Anderson) also had 1b/corner OF/PH potential.
The Yadi contract points to ’ain’t gonna happen.’
We have freese for 3rd catcher
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Mar 1, 2012 5:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i think the club will be careful with molina, if anything moreso because of the contract. carrying three catchers is not
related in anyway to whether yadi catches 110 games or 130 games. either tony cruz or bryan anderson is fully capable of catching 50 games; having two okay-but-not-great catchers splitting those 50 games is not an improvement.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Problem is there are a lot of players clamoring for roster spots
And skip is taking up one that could be used for the all important third catcher spot (sarcasm aside i do like the idea of cruz as supersub but we already have that)
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:14 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I ordered a lot of useless crap today
Wifi Surveliance Camera
2 new usb wifi dongles for backtrack
car mount for my phone
obd2 bluetooth sensor (pretty sweet with Torque app)
Still less than I spent on my last date
is that a good thing
or a bad thing..?
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
Useful things I ordered today:
2 tix to April 14th, Cards vs Cubs
1 ticket to July 22, Cards vs Cubs
Reservation for a suite at the Sheraton for that July weekend
Paid off “MLB12: The Show”
Pre-ordered a Hoverboard
Things I made my last payment on today
student loan
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
by peppermartin on Mar 1, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
oh man.
i’m jealous.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Mar 1, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
sweet
I’m sooooooooooooooooooo far away from that (but not over $20k)
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
under 20k...?
pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Don’t even talk, dude.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I also have no investments
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
or other things I'm trying to pay off
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
i still have 18 glorious months of being a student left
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
:D
http://www.theonion.com/articles/kids-of-milwaukee-forced-to-look-up-to-ryan-braun,27499/
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 6:59 PM EST reply actions
super funny
although, I am starting to get angrier about Braun getting off so easily. Selig/Brewers thing going on?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
his propaganda speech “statement” replayed over and over for 3 days was ridiculous … i hope he get’s caught again
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
gets
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
I largely ignored the whole thing
but it’s weird that they were super against it and now there’s some technicality
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
I think that they were against it
because the technicality was one of procedure, which MLB is responsible for, and so they are seen as “at fault”.
Because Matheny
well, consider me confused
the onion article was hilarious though
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'm starting to dislike Ryan Braun.
This article did not sit well with me.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Mar 1, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Woot Woot !!!
Molina in da House.
I like this deal,,, Molina has a ton of experience regular season/ post season/ world series/ he knows how to handle a pitching staff and he isn’t Pujols but he can handle a bat. I see him as a well rounded player who can grow to be a huge leader on this team for years to come. They should slap a C on his jersey.
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
OK maybe Im too optimistic here but....
From a comment above it basically said we are deferring a lot of this years money into the next five….does that mean we have just freed enough cash to give Oswalt his deal???
"He's the biggest thing to hit Japan since they dropped that bomb on Nagashima!" - Mike Shannon
by JasonMottesGlove on Mar 1, 2012 7:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I like your username
I cannot, however, tell if your post is serious
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
+1
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Sir Glovington: We did not free any cash in this deal.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok...
Twas just going by what someone else mentioned above that we deferred cash from this year….
"He's the biggest thing to hit Japan since they dropped that bomb on Nagashima!" - Mike Shannon
by JasonMottesGlove on Mar 1, 2012 8:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think we overpaid. An overpayment might, by definition, always
be unnecessary, but I thought it was particularly unnecessary to extend Yadi after a career year in a non-contract year. Still, I’m not that worked up about it. Yadi’s one of my favorite players. I’m happy I get to watch him some more.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
contract is a year too long imo
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
but I'm glad he's back
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 1, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't this a contract year?
Or do you mean wait until the year’s over.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
yes, wait until after the year
I realize that exposes him to the open market, but that’s a risk I would have been willing to take as the FO
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
thanks bgh
if Molina were to hit the open market, it only takes one Arte Moreno type (perhaps even Moreno himself, in this instance) to swoop in and blow DeWallet out of DeWater.
I’m glad we don’t have to find out/replay the pujols experience in a year and i’m looking forward to yelling Yadi! Yadi! Yadi! Yadi! for more than one year
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
also
“blow DeWallet out of DeWater” is the best thing i’ve read all day
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
by Aranathor on Mar 1, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
actually i should have said
I’m glad we don’t have to find out/replay the pujols experience in a all over again over the course of the next year and i’m looking forward to yelling Yadi! Yadi! Yadi! Yadi! for more than one year
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
Charles Dicjens is disappointed.
He shall dry his tears with a potato.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Mar 1, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
how dare you
you Cromwell-loving sonofa#%$%#%#
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Oh i'm sorry
did i anger your inner-17th-century-irish-peasant?
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
All me family suffered through the great potato famine
but ’twas was all in good fun!
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
Wait, is Dicjens Serbian or Latvian?
I’m trying to figure out if I am supposed to be picturing a guy in an Adidas track suit who’s chain-smoking…
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
latka?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
You say that
and I think of this Ukranian guy
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
i was surprised by how much i enjoyed that movie.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Come here, Sammy Davis Jr Jr!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Serbian
that’s why he actually has a potato to dry his tears with.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
OT: this may have already been posted
and I really suck at this kind of quiz, but Sporcle’s latest baseball quiz is here, and I only got 106/210. Pretty lame.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 8:05 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, 2 things
1) I hate the quizzes that don’t fit on the one screen without adjusting screen size.
2) I would really, REALLY suck at that quiz.
if i took the whole 20 minutes and thought real hard
i would probably get like 50.
i don’t care a whole lot about baseball history and i suck at things things. they are like brain fart machines for me. there could be one for the 25-man roster of the 2011 cardinals and i’d forget the name of someone obvious like jay or something
yeah I got more for like the Angel's lineup 1990 to 2010
than I did for the Cardinals.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
This. I actually got to 106 with about 5 minutes left, and when I couldn't add anymore in the next 30 seconds
I just gave up. I didn’t look at all the ones I missed, because most of the first few were ones I should have remembered, but my brain farted instead.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
I missed some gimmies (hello Sandy Koufax) but I did get Mark Whiten and Bob Horner...
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 1, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
koufax is actually one of the ones i got
but i was basically just typing in the names of “all-time” type guys that i could think of and not looking at categories
I got Green when I was first typing in Greenberg.
Accidentals ftw! Also, got Koufax and Whiten, but not Horner.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
Tough Quiz
but I scored a 126.
I got Mike Cameron because of a countdown on MLB Network. Picked up some others just by guessing historical baseball names. Missed a few that in hindsight I should have nailed.
So, how's everybody posting these embedded tweets on here?
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Mar 1, 2012 8:42 PM EST reply actions
Open tweet,
Details / Embed, post html code therein.
“Celebrating Harry Carey” by spelling his name wrong! Bar thirty yards from wrigley shall remain nameless… twitter.com/VeeckAsInWreck…
— Night Train Veeck (@VeeckAsInWreck) March 2, 2012
You usually have to refresh before it looks Twitterish.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Mar 1, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
ah
i didn’t know about the refresh. that’s what I figured I had to do.
Enjoy this picture from Matt Holliday taken from I guess 2009 or whenever Shaq came.
Sitting here with @dfreese23 watching @SHAQ on TNT remembering our moment. #wheresmybinky lockerz.com/s/188676511
— matt holliday (@mattholliday7) March 2, 2012
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Mar 1, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
i continue to be amazed that people claim "intangible" value from useless players like schumaker,
for doing stuff like “running hard” and being a nice guy, when they ignore the fairly obvious intangible value in holliday who has clearly taken freese – who had a well-known alcohol abuse problem, which caused well-known injuries and lost value to the cardinals — under his wing and given the kind of support and role model that somebody like freese desperately needs.
if there is a real face of “intangible” value, it’s matt fucking holliday, not some guy who gets his uniform extra dirty. i don’t know how to pro-rate what part of david freese’s value we owe to matt holliday, but i feel fairly sure that the close tie between the clean-living holliday and freese supplies more net value to the team that holliday and freese would supply if they were each on separate teams. it’s funny to me that the same people who like to celebrate intangibles are fairly often those who denigrate matt holliday (because he didn’t have his “moment” or whatever).
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Mar 1, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 22 recs
didn't the Schu drive in the winning run in Game 5?
I forgive him. If the worse thing the Cards ever do is play Schu a bit too much, I’ll be pretty happy.
Just win
clearly that was the point of my comment.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
he also had a bunch of guys like cox and carpenter flown to st louis to "hang and hit"
or something cheesy like that. but he seems like a pretty cool guy
Could not agree more
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Mar 1, 2012 10:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He had the same # of Freese in Game 6 and broke up a double
Play that led to a run. Intangible
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Mar 1, 2012 11:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
never knew of the holliday
situation…nice to know
by guillermozeliak on Mar 2, 2012 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
I used to use it all the time.
Lately it’s been slower than 3G. I think all the EVO users turned on 4G when Sprint got the iPhone.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
i guess i should say proper etiquette
like it’s proper etiquette to bring a dish if you’re invited for dinner
i think it more appropriate to bring a bottle of wine if invited to dinner
are you thinking of a potluck lunch / dinner?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
well i was trying to be helpful...thought you were going to dinner at first, didn't actually see your first question ... sorry about that.
Yes, you should bring a bottle of something or six/12 pack of beer (whatever you plan to drink) and a snack like chips etc. No need to get really fancy. Basically you are bringing what you plan to drink and nibble on to contribute to the host to take care of those coming empty handed.
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
cool
and you probably saved me from bringing the wrong thing to a dinner at some point
i think that just sometimes for large family dinners (like thanksgiving), people will bring a dish, i dunno if that’s different
very welcome ... your question reminded me of the poker games i enjoyed years ago
makes me want to get a weekly game together again. We used to have a “kitty” and a quarter of ever hand would go to the kitty and the host would provide the pizza/dip/chips/wings etc. everyone brought their own drinks. good times
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
welcome and yes family dinners are basically everyone brings a dish ... which is awesome multiplied!
not so when invited to other peoples house for dinner, a nice wine is appropriate then, but asking what you should bring is always appreciated … normally met with “just yourself” or “just your appetite”. Still bring the wine unless it’s inappropriate based on beliefs, values, etc.
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
flowers or a loaf of fresh bread are also a safe choice under almost any circumstance.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
can be dicey at times and may come back to haunt you if it's the last one ... just saying
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
fresh french or italian bread for safe. fresh sourdough or something else if you're more daring.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Don't forget the chocolate babka
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Never the cinnamon.
But you could get a black and white cookie.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Mar 2, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Only if you want to throw up on the street right after, while waiting for Kramer to pick you up.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 2, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
never to any poker games i've been too
my poker buddies and i usually just bring a six pack of weird/specialty/foreign/micro brews and we all drink each others beer. i guess it depends on the poker game.
don’t be afraid to ask if you haven’t sat at this table ahead of time
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Mar 1, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
A 6-pack is usually well-received
although I rarely drink when I’m playing poker.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
Also, if your group is using ceramic chips instead of plastic ones
and something oily/salty is at hand (potato chips, etc.), it’s good etiquette not to use your eating hand as your chip-pushing in hand. Ceramic chips can get discolored. Used to have a regular game at a friend’s acquaintance’s house, and he had a nice set of ceramic chips, and he made sure people used different hands. I finally suggested that he stop serving oily snacks if he cared that much about the chips, but everyone loves to eat chips or pretzels or whatnot when playing poker.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
If you can make the assumption that the cards never would have given Yadi this contract
if they re-signed Pujols, are we happier with Molina, Beltran (hopefully Oswalt at some point) and a bet on the future farm system or “Albert and the scrubs”.
If this was the choice we were making, I’m happier with this choice. With a little luck we should have a great shot at 3-4 more playoff runs.
Just win
For the next 6 years, probably Albert
For the remaining 4, KILL IT WITH FIRE not-Albert.
Not afraid to nitpick
could we have afforded waino, yadi, beltran/furcal's replacements, whoever turns out to be worthwhile long term out of the bullpen,
and freese/craig or whatever players proved deserving of contracts in 2014 and on with whatever it would have taken to beat arte? Does anyone have any idea of what that would have taken in a bidding war to beat whatever arte’s final bid would have been?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 1, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
Albert
I’m just not convinced that a sufficient Albert contract would have crippled the team to the point where we wouldn’t be competitive for most of the contract.
Note I am still operating under the assumption that 10yrs/220-230 without deferments would have been sufficient to sign Albert
Question for the sushi-eaters of VEB
If I were to try to emulate the flavor of smelt roe (masago) with something vegetarian, in what direction(s) would I go? Citrus? Salt? Pickled? Funky/Earthy?
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
o_o
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
(not helpful)
I just need the flavor profile. I’m not looking to replace the texture.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Mar 1, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
(although... I could try. I do have some spherification chemicals)
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
I only ever ate flying fish roe, usually with a raw quail egg on top
and it wasn’t that fishy-tasting (probably because of the taste of the quail egg). Don’t eat those anymore, and never tried the smelt roe, so can’t help ya.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
seems like half of what makes roe, roe is the texture. i'd focus on something that creates that popping texture. no idea
what the vegetarian option there is.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
yeah, that's definitely a good point. I'm making mussels with "dynamite" sauce,
and most of the recipes call for masago. How firm is the texture? Is the shell crunchy or at all chewy?
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
If you're eating mussels, what's wrong with roe?
Mussels aren’t considered vegetarian, are they?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Heh. I'm not vegetarian!
I eat bivalves (mussels, clams, oysters and scallops), but not any other animals.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
have you ever had a ripe-to-bursting champagne grape? it's got that kind of texture (although much smaller)
but a salty rather than sweet taste.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
brief googling suggest substituting with other kinds of fish eggs, no other substitutes listed.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
yep, that's what I found.
I have spherification powders, and I might try to do something with them. I’m thinking about olive brine or caper juice, or maybe I’ll just use mussel broth or something.
I’ve never made “spheres” that small before, though. I’ll have to do some experimenting.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Wow, that's a really clever idea...
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
My dad recently made fake "caviar"
It was basically salty tapioca. Not sure exactly what went into it. Soy sauce or fish sauce or something.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
tapioca, salt, veggie gelatin substitute?
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
mm. the chili oil tapioca pearls sound really good.
either just cooking the pearls in lightly salted water or a salt water/soy sauce mix (with orange food dye for effect) might do something close to the roe you’re looking for.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Yeah, I think I'll try a bunch of different versions of these this weekend.
I’ll let you know how it goes.
Thanks, everyone in this thread except for rui!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Wait, I was not helpful at all, either
but it wasn’t because I didn’t want to be!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Wooohooo
Wife is a fan for at least 6 more years!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Mar 1, 2012 10:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
happy happy happy to have yadi locked in
i like this. this make me happys.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
OT, 2 March 1962, Wilt Chamberlain scores 100 points, against the Knicks.
was 36 for 63 shots from the field
28 for 32 free throws.
scored 60 points or more on15 occasions that year..
by Tuning in from Korea on Mar 1, 2012 11:01 PM EST reply actions
was it really '62? wow. doesn't seem like it was that far back.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
This is funny because I was just thinking about Wilt
when prophetjohn asked his ICS question above. My snarky come-back was gonna be: No, but what’s the ETA on Wilt’s STD?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 1, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
And the game ended like 12 seconds early.
As everyone (except the Knicks) celebrated.
It's Spring Again! ...witch
Two cents
So fangraphs now has two components that show how good Yadier is at defense, SB/CS and blocking pitches in the dirt. It doesn’t, however, have framing pitches, which Mike Fast did, that had Yadier at +8 runs per 120 games caught.
If that was implemented (and I figure for the purposes of calculating his value, it kind of should), I wondered how much that would affect his WAR. If i did the same criteria that fangraphs did for blocking pitches (Max of +/-7), Yadier’s 2008-2011 value would jump to 17 WAR. (4.25 WAR per year)
Using 0.5 WAR decline each year would place Yadi as an 11.25 WAR player over the life of his 5-year deal not including his 2012 season.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
Adding in the added elements of value seems like a good idea to me
But I wonder about the overall cumulative effect and some other values. Catchers already receive a hefty positional adjustment figured into WAR. I assume that positional adjustment is calculated to try to include the importance of catcher defense.
So, if we are adding in actual component factors that relate to catcher defense on top of WAR, could we be double dipping in the special sauce? Would there need to be a compensating reduction to the catcher positional adjustment according to some calculated mean ?
Someone who knows more about such matters please chime in. I’m just wondering how this works.
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Mar 1, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
The article linked above in this thread had Yadier at +8 runs total over the past 4 seasons
So I think it’s safe to say we still have no idea how good Yadier is at framing pitches. At any rate, this deal assumes Yadier will be 4.1 WAR next year and then decline .5 WAR each year. Without taking into account framing, Yadier is probably a 3.5 WAR player next year. So it all hinges on how good he is at framing.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Would you give
Shane Victorino the Molina contract?
by rumors on Mar 1, 2012 11:52 PM EST via mobile reply actions
that's an interesting question
my first thought is that I’d want to know how defense in center field ages relative to catcher defense.
True
A lot of Victorino’s value disappears if he’s not a plus defensive CF, much like Molina at C. Also, much like the Molina contract, I would probably be hoping for a 4 year deal with an option, but would be ok if they gave him the 5th year.
by rumors on Mar 2, 2012 12:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
intuitively, I'd say CF defense ages much worse than C defense.
Of course, many here lately have talked about how intuitve it is that catchers age faster when it comes to defense and that doesn’t make any intuitive sense to me, so….
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 2, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
Jim Edmonds was a plus defender in CF during his age 35 season
But Victorino is not Edmonds.
by rumors on Mar 2, 2012 12:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also Marlon Byrd put up good defensive numbers
Last year at 34.
by rumors on Mar 2, 2012 12:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'd want to know how well Victorino plays catcher before I crossed out Molina's name.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 2, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
i'd say definitely not. Victorino is almost two years older than Yadi.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 2, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
but he has the intangible asset of the name "Victorino!"
and a couple of unfortunate attempts to hit the cutoff man last year
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 2, 2012 4:54 AM EST up reply actions
kind of weird
@Joe_Kelly22 is nasty. Cards nation will c him soonRT @Joe_Kelly22: @mattholliday7 your my favorite player can I get a RT
— matt holliday (@mattholliday7) March 2, 2012
can you explain an RT
For those of us who are not yet twitterficient.
by rumors on Mar 2, 2012 12:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
basically you show someone else's tweets to your followers. "retweet"
but it’s kind of odd since joe kelly is a springfield cardinals’ pitcher
and it's common for people to beg for retweets from celebrities
which is pretty lame behavior in my opinion, but as WMT says, it’s probably a joke
i cannot decipher who is saying what or doing what except it appears to be matt hollidinger and joe kelly
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Mar 2, 2012 5:01 AM EST up reply actions
i'm guesssing it's a joke between those guys at ST (hopefully)
also, Kelly’s fastball is ridiculously awesome.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 2, 2012 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
Bwahahhahaha
awesome. I really do hate it when people ask for RTs from those guys.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
volcanic activity in arkansas?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjmt9HYSlfY&feature=youtu.be
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 2, 2012 1:12 AM EST reply actions
I enjoyed it
Reminds me something RB would like
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 2, 2012 4:08 AM EST up reply actions
The Molina Pickoff and Berkman
So, every Molina pick off first is worth half a run according to Bill James. There is also the immense psychic value of witnessing the pickoff for the fan and – possibly the team; I would imagine the threat helps slow a running game down as well; and that it also creates an extra error or two from when Molina and Pujols missed.
The question is: Can Berkman run that play? Does he have the intensity to run behind every secondary lead for the 130 games he plays or so. Does he have the glove to let Molina uncork at will and pickoff any errant throws like Albert did? Will I be laughed at for bringing this up when the statistical impact is so meaningless?
Your whole question doesn't matter...
because with Wainwright back, no one will ever be on base (yes, Wainwright has a positive affect on the entire pitching staff).
i don't know what "immense psychic value" means, but it sounds incredibly awesome
perhaps you meant psychological?
and we won the world series.
He meant immense psychotic value
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 3, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
hmmmmmm
wonder if I might have to come down with some sort of illness to coincide with monday’s game
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
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- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
