Yadier Molina's free agency and the St. Louis Cardinals' extension jitters
by DanUpBaby on Feb 9, 2012 8:01 AM EST
in St. Louis Cardinals Free Agents
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PrintThe Cardinals are in a weird place with Yadier Molina. In order of ascending weirdness:
1. Yadier Molina is a catcher. Catchers are difficult to value because they accumulate fewer wins above replacement than everybody else and they're scarier to lock in on long-term at the ages when most stars and near-stars become free agents. Since 2000 there's been all of 11 instances of five bWAR seasons from catchers, and four at six—Joe Mauer twice, Jorge Posada once (at 31), and Javy Lopez in that random season where he slugged .687.
Albert Pujols notched five WAR 11 times in that span. Shortstops did it 36 times, corner outfielders 60 times, and so on. A lot of this is likely related to our limited understanding of catcher defense, but unless the Cardinals know something we don't or are confident in a specific estimate of Molina's defensive abilities catchers remain more difficult to evaluate, let alone to sign long-term.
On the Cot's list of enormous contracts, there's Joe Mauer at sixth—$184 million over eight years—and Mike Piazza's highest-paid-player-in-baseball contract at the turn of the millennium. Before Mauer the biggest active catcher's contract was Jorge Posada's four year, $52 million deal. Catchers just rarely get long-term deals; the closest comparison I can come up with is Jason Varitek, who got a four year, $40 million deal to be the team captain of the Red Sox in 2005. Varitek was three years older than Molina will be, and had two Jason Varitek seasons and two below-average ones.
2. They didn't sign Albert Pujols. That leaves Yadier Molina atop the list of popular Lifelong Cardinals with just one year left on his contract. Right now the Cardinals basically look like last year's squad with a bunch of robotic old-player enhancements bolted to their spindlier limbs; 2013 will be our first glimpse at how or whether the Cardinals go in a different direction as they attempt to rebuild on the fly.
Whatever signal John Mozeliak intends to send, he'll have a hard time pushing it out there over the din of the Molina negotiations.
3. Yadier Molina is coming off a Brian McCann season. Typically I'd agree with Bernie Miklasz, who suggested yesterday that Molina's price will only go up over the course of the next season, but I don't see how Yadier Molina could be any more valuable than he is right now—and the gap between his current valuation and his "true" valuation might be wide enough to offset the bump he'll get in free agency.
Right now Molina couldn't look much better than he does: He's coming off an OPS+ of 126 and a career-high 14 home runs, he's played at least 130 games three years in a row, and he's just 29 years old. He's widely regarded as the best defensive catcher in baseball, and as difficult as that is to quantify he also just had the 31st-best offensive season of any catcher since 2000. Which probably isn't going into his Scott Boras-style notebook, but is impressive nevertheless.
4. The Cardinals don't have anything else going on at catcher. Really, this might be what forces the Cardinals' hand, no matter what the Cardinals of the next five years are supposed to look like. azruavatar did a great post about this a few weeks ago at Future Redbirds—Bryan Anderson and Tony Cruz are backup options, Robert Stock might be a pitcher by the end of 2012, Audry Perez has walked 31 times in 216 games, and Cody Stanley was a league-average hitter as a 22-year-old in the Midwest League. And that's the catching situation in St. Louis.
Anderson and Cruz might reasonably spend time in a starting role if Molina were lost for a month, or if the Cardinals had a catching prospect in the wings, but right now the only thing keeping the Cardinals from spinning the Rod Barajas wheel of one-year contracts is Yadier Molina.
#
The Astros will try Brett Wallace at third base, which makes sense to me inasmuch as he's had as much trouble hitting like a first baseman as he had fielding like a third baseman. A team like the Astros can and should try as much stuff like this as they can, even though I'm not sure Carlos Lee should be blocking anybody on a team that's going to lose 100 games.
Wayward Cardinals prospect positional-return power rankings: 3. Brett Wallace, third base; 2. Daric Barton, catcher; 1. Rick Ankiel, pitcher.
#
The Roy Oswalt thing continues to get more ridiculous. At last glance, the Phillies were apparently considering—this will sound familiar—moving a pitcher they regretted signing in exchange for room to sign Oswalt to a one-year deal. You're right: This is the worst thing ever.
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I wouldn't mind if we signed Ankiel to a minor league contract.
It would be interesting if he was open to pitching again.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
He might have a out clause in his contract
that if he is not on the 25 roster at certain date he become a free agent. Rick Ankiel is a baseball vampire. You can’t kill him. I’m convinced he’ll reinvent himself as a loogy after he can no longer make an MLB roster as an outfielder.
That ship has sailed
/shedssingletear
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
Anybody we sign from this point on
has to have played for the Astros at some point anyway
don't really like the guy....
and yes, it’s personal. I used to go to the Astros ST facility in Kissimmee quite a bit when I was younger (early teens) and like most kids at that age, getting autographs was a big deal. Biggio was signing one day, the only time I’d ever seen him do so, and so of course I ran over, baseball card in hand, ready to get the signature. When he went down the line, and got to me, he looked me right in the face and then just moved on. He was only signing for kids that were obviously very young, and while on the surface that may not be the worst thing in the world, my 14 year old self will never forgive him…but at least he didn’t yell at me in the parking lot like Paul O’Neil.
contributing author - Alligator Army
Paul O'Neill promised he'd hit two HR in one game for my sick friend.
Don’t badmouth the man.
by The Gottfather on Feb 9, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No
The second one was ruled a triple with a throwing error. But it’s just as good as a home run
by The Gottfather on Feb 9, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
That’s still remarkable, and commendable. I’ve always had a soft spot for ballplayers that try and do something for the ill. There’s a quiet nobility about it that’s hard to describe.
...
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
by Aranathor on Feb 9, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 11 recs
PBF comics were/are hilarious.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
And then he punted a ball to first base.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
you do know thats a bit from Seinfeld right?
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 9, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Shhhh
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 11:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
oh man
you think he’s being serious
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
Did he scream at him in a parking lot after that?
because that’s what happened to me? No? ok.
contributing author - Alligator Army
I had a similar run-in with Todd Zeile in Cincinnati
My dad took my brother and I to Cincy to watch the Cards play there. My brother and I were in Cards gear of course, so we thought for sure we could get Todd’s autograph. We were the first two kids standing along the first row of seats, and Zeile skipped over us and started with some younger kids wearing Reds shirts. I’ve hated Todd Zeile ever since that day
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 9, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
DK for me
but a little different. He signed for everyone right up to me and the guy I was at the game with, then his wife drove out of the lot and sat ahead of him waiting. He looked up, saw her, looked at us and said, “Sorry guys, I gotta go.”
At least he acknowledged us.
Tulo skipped over my wife two summers ago. He borrowed her pen to sign for her friend, then gave the pen back to the friend. Then when he turned to her, he looked at her like, ‘you don’t have a pen?’ and moved on.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Had an awesome experience at Wrigley...
one year near the end of a baseball tour I was standing down the right field line 20 feet before the foul pole.
One of the coaches for the cubs (can’t remember who) was tossing balls into the stands …the kid next to me already had like 3. The next one was tossed and just like a ninja I raised my hand without moving and snagged clearly what was intended for the whiny little brat next to me. The kid cried no fare. I said you got plenty o balls and kept my prize while the Cub glared at me..
Awesome moment.
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
If he cried
“no fare” he clearly wasn’t complaining about missing out on the ball, he was just concerned that he didn’t have enough jack for the bus ride home.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 9, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Or for his next hot dog.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
That's not too shabby
I was at the park that the Expos/Tigers used to share; forget where that was, and the Braves were playing. Maddux wasn’t pitching that day, but was there. Some other kid and I were lurking near the players parking lot, and sure enough out comes Greg Maddux. The other kid, obviously being smarter than me, ran up to the car, and Greg rolled down his window, and signed for him. I followed, but by that point Greg was ready to go, so he rolled up his window and pulled forward. It was at that point that I slapped the trunk of his blue Buick (yes he drove a Buick). It was a simple reation, but Greg didn’t look overly thrilled with me, and stopped his car. At that point, I ran….
contributing author - Alligator Army
you know all those times i said
‘man, this offseason is going so fast! It’ll be baseball time again before we all know it!’
Well, fuck those times. I want baseball now damnit! I’m going mad.
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
Insiders-
where are the Cards prospects ranked on Law’s top 100?
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
No. 4
do i get in trouble for pasting?
4. St. Louis Cardinals
They’ve drafted very well in the past few years, which has to be heartening to Astros fans, as Houston just hired Jeff Luhnow, who oversaw the Cards’ recent drafts, as GM. St. Louis also has done an excellent job of developing the players it’s drafted. I really like how the Cards are set up to contend continuously during the next five years.
If so, sorry worldwide leader.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
I think he's asking about the individual players.
Law was releasing the top 100 list today, I think.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
thanks- but i actually saw that
i was just curious about the top 100 prospects list he released today- not the organizational rankings.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
You have nothing to worry about. SOPA/PIPA were not passed
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
yes.
if only for law’s articles. you can find a subscription to espn the magazine online for around 5 dollars, and that comes with insider. throw the magazine away every month and enjoy reading insightful baseball analysis.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
yeah, but my point was don't buy it on espn's site.
look around for a discount magazine deal, and insider will come with.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
This.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Cheapest I can find it is for
$11.97 (two years would average out to $9.75/year)
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
This site
Discount Mags regularly has sales. 2 days ago it was $10.50 for 3 years of it.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 9, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I paid $10.49 for a 3-yr subscription to magazine
Insider comes with. Thanks BGH, or whomever posted that magazine deal on twitter.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
why don't you just use someone else's address?
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
shelby 5, carlos 22.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
taveras 53, Cox 66, Jenkins 74
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Swaggerty at 92
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
sorry, thought you meant Org rankings at first.
5 RHP Shelby Miller St. Louis 6-3 195 21
22 RHP Carlos Martinez St. Louis 6-0 165 20
53 OF Oscar Taveras St. Louis 6-2 180 19
66 3B Zack Cox St. Louis 6-0 215 22
74 RHP Tyrell Jenkins St. Louis 6-4 180 19
92 RHP Jordan Swagerty St. Louis 6-2 175 22
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
thoughts.
Shelby seems a bit low (i’m assuming 5 means Teheran’s passed him), C Mart still seems higher than most people are putting him (although that 4 ranking from the midseasons is a distant memory now), and i am stunned Taveras, Cox, and Swagerty are so high. Jenkins seems just right. 6 in the 100… i’ll take that.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Trout, Harper, Moore, Machado
are in spots 1-4. Law’s thoughts on Shelby:
Miller is the top right-handed pitching prospect in the minors, with the best combination of stuff, size, delivery and results of any pitcher in the minors not named Matt Moore.
He will sit in the low- to mid-90s and touch 97 mph as a starter with a sharp breaking ball in the upper-70s/low-80s with good depth that misses right-handed hitters’ bats. He continued to make progress this year with his changeup, a pitch he rarely needed or used as an amateur, and the pitch has good tailing action that has helped him gets some swinging strikes against lefties. He is very receptive to coaches’ suggestions and has proved a quick study so far.
He often lands on the third-base side of the rubber and comes slightly across his body, creating deception but also potentially putting stress on his shoulder. If the Cardinals can keep him more on line, and he sees more improvement in the changeup and command of the fastball, he’s a potential No. 1 starter for the Cardinals in two or three years.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
FYI
Cole, Bundy, Vizcaino and Taillon are the next pitchers (before Teheran)
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
then
Bradley, Perez, Bauer, and then Martinez
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
therefore Martinez is the
11th best pitching prospect, per these rankings.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
that's not bad
i don’t know that i can argue with anyone of those being ahead of Martinez except Perez.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
I like Taillon a lot
but putting him in front of Martinez is just ridiculous. If Martinez stays in A ball all year he lays waste to Taillon’s numbers. He moved up to A+ and struggled with his command (while also having some bad luck on balls in play) and therefore gets dropped. The Pirates have no reason to push Taillon at this point, the Cardinals aggressively promote. This needs to be factored in.
Subjective, subjective, subjective.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I just don't have any complaints about Shelby's rank -- he's in the Top 5.
I’m not particularly stunned about Taveras’ ranking (maybe a little given KLaw was the one that mentioned his “violent” swing), but Swagerty was a big surprise. I was scrolling down the list looking for Adams or Wong when I saw it, so I was pretty shocked I saw Swagerty over either of them, and I consider myself a Swagerty fan. Cox was also surprising because most aren’t that high on him, and his year was decent but not stellar. OTOH, he was like 72 on Law’s list last year, so he must like the guy’s chances.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Could it be that people just wrongly interpreted Law's comment about Taveras' swing?
Or that maybe he’s just changed his mind? I mean, 53 overall is pretty awesome. Maybe Law was just remarking that the swing is something to keep an eye on, as opposed to declaring that it will definitely hold him back. Unless a guys is a true “can’t miss” prospect, doesn’t pretty much everybody have at least one or two concerns?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
In this writeup, KLaw calls the swing "crazy"
And then describes it:
He loads his hands high and deep, keeping them steady as he starts his stride, even letting them drift higher before he starts his hands — but his hand acceleration is explosive. He’s very rotational, and likes to get his arms fully extended no matter where the ball is, which should leave him vulnerable on the inner half and will make it harder for him to make adjustments. He can end up off balance from the force of the swing, and max-effort swings like this are rare in the big leagues; however, hand-eye coordination like Taveras’ is pretty rare, and the fact that he makes so much contact, most of it hard, is a huge positive. He’s a potential middle-of-the-order bat with some defensive value in right.
I don’t think folks are misinterpreting the comments. KLaw does not like the swing and believes that Taveras is succeeding despite the swing.
Yeah, I was kind of bouncing around the thread, hadn't realized that quite yet
I guess that quote does make it a little more plain that he sees real problems with it. Anyway, he clearly sees the potential by putting him just shy of top 50 in the majors. Taveras is what, 19 years old? Law obviously sees a lot to like with him as well.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Taveras is from the Dominican..
he is prolly really already 23
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
If this description is accurate...
…and I’m always skeptical about people’s descriptions (but I think Law his a high-speed camera) then this truly is a bad swing.
The “always tries to get his arms extended” part is a real problem if he means at contact, because that creates problems over the inner half and with off-speed pitching.
Boog would have made that play.
I dont know...
…from what I have seen I didn’t notice the arm extension thing, where one would expect to see his hands casting outside the ball on inside pitches. I havent seen high speed on him but he appears to keep his hands inside the ball pretty well even on inside pitches. Other than that I thought he had a pretty solid rotational swing around a decent leg plant with nice body angle at contact for lift.
I think the violent swing thing comes from when he mis reads a pitch he looks off balance and falls back to a rear foot that had come off the ground. Looks pretty ugly. But him being fooled wasn’t particularly consistent.
Yea, this is about what I think.
It seems like, from OCCardsFan’s post, it’s not so much that he doesn’t like the swing, as much as he doesn’t see guys with similar swings in the majors and thinks Taveras will have to adjust it.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's a little more critical than I thought at first, but not quite as critical as some are making him out to be
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Well he sees flaws in the swing, but that doesn't mean the flaws outweigh the strengths, namely the hard contact.
The only thing that he mentions as a problem is possibly balls inside, and when he needs to make adjustments. The rest is just “players with swings like that aren’t in the bigs”, which is notable, but not necessarily damning.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Law has been high on Swagerty since draft time.
Has always seen him as a starter.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Excited to see Kelly listed as the 10th best Cards prospect?
You’ve been beating that drum for a while.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
It's reassuring.
Nice to think that I at least have some idea what I’m talking about.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I wouldn't go that far....
halfway through it I thought, "this is a really nerdy thing I'm posting." but I just had to power through to the end.
Danup
plus 6 drafts picks in the top 100 this year
WE GONNA BE THE RAYS
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Law doesn't like to project young young players.
Miller’s been in the AA proving ground, and thus pushes himself into the top 10, but I think that Taveras, Martinez, and Jenkins could all receive higher ranks than this based on the fact that they the latter two project to be top of the rotation starters and Taveras was the best hitter in his league last year at a very young age.
I think Law tends to be a bit pessimistic with really young players, although having 3 guys under the age of 22 in his top 100 prospects shows how much he thinks of our system.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
So why has he dropped?
I don’t know the players who moved in front of him, but it seems to me that he’s getting punished in the rankings…..for some reason I can’t fathom. Some scout says that “his frame won’t hold up to a starter’s innings load” and all of the sudden everyone drops him like a bad habit? This, to me, is the problem with ranking prospects — there’s far too much subjective bullshit that goes on. I prefer the way that Sickels does it: Just give them a letter grade and not worry about where they compare to other players.
Law thinks that Taveras has a “max-effort” swing — never mind that he barrels the ball all the time and has pretty impressive power for a 19 year old kid. Other scouts who’ve written about him don’t share this view. Clearly this perception of Taveras has dropped him in Law’s rankings.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
...
This, to me, is the problem with ranking prospects — there’s far too much subjective bullshit that goes on. I prefer the way that Sickels does it: Just give them a letter grade and not worry about where they compare to other players.
agreed, 100%.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
I mean, that's what ranking lists are, though. Just some guys opinion in an order.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
i think fourstick's point, which i agree with
is that getting to that fine a level of detail about who is “better” is almost impossible to do right with MLB veterans, let alone prospects. better to give them a less specific type of grade.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
More accurate, yeah. But we wouldn't be talking about Keith Law right now if he did that.
So this way is “better” for ESPN. Who Keith Law works for.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I agree with this
I’m just saying that we shouldn’t put too much stock on who gets into the “Top 100” on anyone’s ranking list, or how those players are put in order. It means very little.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Law did mention that
for the first time this year, he’s factored in ‘ceiling’ when making his rankings.
Personally, i think this is another reason why we land 6 in the top 100 as the last few baby birds on the list are the risk/reward type, imo.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but he's still bullish on them
I think Taveras and Martinez should both be higher than they are based on what they did last year at their respective ages.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
agreed
especially Martinez. your earlier points about confusion on his drop from midpoint rankings jives with my thoughts.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
I'm sure it's related to the issues that he had with command in his last 7 starts
But he’s young, had some bad luck on balls in play, and tried to be too fine while striking everybody out. At least that’s how it was described in multiple scouting reports.
I think that he got promoted a bit aggressively and wasn’t ready mentally for that leap yet. The rest of his peripherals are in line with what he was doing at A ball, it’s just the walk rate that went through the roof.
I expect him to get back on track at the start of 2012 and be back in the top 10 prospects in baseball by Law’s mid-season rankings (although having 10 guys in front of him get promoted to the big leagues certainly won’t hurt any).
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
He's also been a pitcher for a very short amount of time.
He could just have been tired late in the season.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Law's report was actually quite promising on Tavares.
He called him a future middle of the order hitter with defensive value in right. He’s higher on Tavares than many other prospect lists.
I don't have Insider, so I can't read the profiles.
But all the stuff I’ve read from Law on Taveras was that he wasn’t sure if his “max effort” swing would translate at higher levels. Perhaps he’s changed his mind after seeing him in the AFL. Sounds like he has….
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
taveras
i feel like a pirate…
Taveras played a little over half a season in the Midwest League, and led the league in batting average, on-base percentage and slugging with a very high contact rate despite a crazy swing.
He loads his hands high and deep, keeping them steady as he starts his stride, even letting them drift higher before he starts his hands — but his hand acceleration is explosive. He’s very rotational, and likes to get his arms fully extended no matter where the ball is, which should leave him vulnerable on the inner half and will make it harder for him to make adjustments. He can end up off balance from the force of the swing, and max-effort swings like this are rare in the big leagues; however, hand-eye coordination like Taveras’ is pretty rare, and the fact that he makes so much contact, most of it hard, is a huge positive. He’s a potential middle-of-the-order bat with some defensive value in right.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Feb 9, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
basically the same story he’s had for the last 9 months. Nothing changed really in his overall opinion on him from what I can see.
I just disagree. I don’t think his swing is that violent and don’t think he’s going to struggle all that much on inside pitches because his swing is pretty short and direct. He does like to get his arms extended, that’s true, but his hands are so fast and quick to unload to the point of contact that I don’t think this is going to be a real issue for him as he moves up.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
He mentioned that swings that violent are very rare in the majors.
But said that Tavares’ hand-eye coordination is very rare as well, and that his consistent hard contact makes up for the violence. Overall, I would call Keith a believer at this point.
And the guys who DO have this type of swing in the majors
tend to be superstar level players (Sheffield comes to mind), mainly because they have a rare combination of quickness and hand eye coordination, as Law mentions that Taveras seems to possess.
I just disagree that his swing is “violent”. And so do a lot of other scouts.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Jordan "Mad" Swag(erty)?
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 12:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yep
I just don’t see how his skillset ever comes together in a way that makes him a major league regular. Doesn’t quite hit like a third baseman, doesn’t quite field like anything else.
Why so down on Cox?
Law has him ranked as the #66 prospect. The guy hit very respectably at AA Springfield, putting up a .293 average and .787 OPS in his Age 22 season. Just because he doesn’t have a natural position, why are we trying to find ways to drop him?
I don't get this either
He struggles a bit right after he’s promoted and then he starts raking after about 100-150 PA’s. Makes good contact and has decent gap power. He’s not going to hit 30 homers at any point, but we knew that when we drafted him.
I think he can play 3B at an above average level. The question is whether he’s going to hit enough to stay there, and that’s a bit subjective based on what you think you should be getting in the offensive profile of a typical third baseman.
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I guess I hadn't kept up with how his stats had improved over the course of his time at AA
went over to look at how he was hitting, and was surprised how high his ISO was; I had recalled him hitting for not much power at AA. Still not convinced he hits like a third baseman, but he’s better than I had remembered.
I think it's easy to draw conclusions on prospects
based on very small samples of PA’s that don’t necessarily give you an idea of their true talent level. This is especially true in the Cardinals organization since Mo took over as GM: We promote so aggressively that we rarely see a talented player play a full season at one level if he’s hitting there. So we don’t get the inflated video-game numbers like what we saw from Oscar Taveras last year very often: The Cards generally move those guys up to challenge them at the next level before they start putting up those numbers. Hence, I think that our prospects tend to be slightly underrated due to struggling as they change levels and adjust to the better talent they’re facing.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
This is the breezy, unexamined (but oft-repeated) story on Cox.
It’s hard to understand what “skillset” this references, unless it’s “power” – it’s been said many times that Cox projects to have power in the 12-18 HR range. (He hit 13 in 569PAs in his first full year in the minors).
How many ML 3B hit 25+ home runs last year? 4, and one of those Mark Reynolds (0.3 WAR). There were 7 in 2010 (and that included the likes of Jose Bautista, who’s not really a 3B). The vast majority of ML 3B evidently “don’t quite hit like a third baseman.”
If we allow Cox, in what amounted to his first professional year after just two years in college, even a modicum of an adjustment period of 100 PAs at AA (widely considered the biggest jump in the minors), his second half of 2011 came in at .335/.388/.500.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I’d be much more concerned about his walk rate than his power. He didn’t walk much in college either and is by all accounts a very aggressive hitter. If he continues to make great contact as he gets promoted this becomes less of an issue, but guys who walk only 5% of the time in the minors don’t have a great track record of being above average offensive players at the MLB level.
Totally agree on not discounting him due to small samples of PA’s though.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I'm not concerned about his walk rate, yet.
His unintentional walk rate improved after moving up to AA, to 7.2% (ML average is 8%). And he doesn’t strike out that much, doesn’t hit infield fly balls, and has excellent LD rates.
Also, in his sophmore/last year at Ark., his BB% was 12.3%, so actually pretty good, and he had a BB/K ration of 34/37, which is very, very good. It wouldn’t surprise me at all for him to have a 9-10%+ walk rate next year.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
5 of those walks in college were intentional
I watched Arkansas play a few times that year as well, and teams seemed to pitch around him a lot as well.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Yeah, the stats I was looking at don't list any of those as IBBs
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Zack-Cox
Regardless, I think reports of him being a complete free swinger or unable to take a walk are overblown/unsubstantiated.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Another thing I wonder is whether minor league coaching approaches hitters the same way they approach pitchers
This is more of a general question but might have something to do with Cox. Anybody know how common it is for coaches to stress their hitters to work on specific parts of their hitting? We know, for example, that they wanted Shelby Miller to work on certain pitches regardless of the in-game results. Even if he could destroy the other team throwing only fastballs, they made him work on breaking stuff in-game. Do they similar things with hitters?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I just looked on the Arkansas baseball website
It’s not that I think that he won’t take a walk if he’s not getting pitches to hit (i.e. He’s not Jeff Francoeur). It’s that his scouting profiles all indicate that he is very aggressive early in counts and that this doesn’t seem to change regardless of whether it’s fastballs or off speed pitches that he’s seeing. Better pitchers will be able to take advantage of this aggressiveness.
I don’t think it’s unsubstantiated when multiple scouts have made a point of bringing it up.
I think his rank is probably pretty accurate in terms of his talent level. I just tend to favor players who have the ability to work counts a little better, that’s all. And that’s all personal preference.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I just think it's cool to see a "big name" so high on Cox
I was starting to think opinion in general had really cooled on him. I guess that was premature on my part.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I have one question about Cox
Does his ML contract effect his arb clock? Does it force him to be on the 60 man to not be taken in Rule 5? What does it effect? For the record I like him and while I’m far from an expert, what I read about him makes me think Freese as a slightly better defender (and I think Freese is looking like a lesser HR hitter than he is because of injuries and would be a 15-20 HR guy of he ever stayed healthy a full season)
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 12:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No on the arb clock...
but he is using an option year every year he is on the 40-man roster and not on the active roster.
Sign Roy O
This
Rule 5 protection is moot since he is on the 40 man roster anyway.
And, while I like Freese too, Cox is 6 years younger, so you have to factor that in.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Awesome, thanks guys
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm starting to wonder if the Cardinals draft hitters with a special eye to making contact
Craig, Jay, Cox, Taveras, and Freese (well we traded for him, but I assume we still had our eyes on the guy for a reason) are all guys who have not taken tons of walks (mostly respectable, but not elite BB% or anything). Maybe they have a system for identifying players whose BA or BABIP won’t crater against higher competition?
After all, walks are not the same as a single. In a wOBA-style measurement, would a .300/.350/.500 hitter usually be better than a .250/.350/.500 hitter?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Not much difference really
A walk is discounted slightly because it’s less valuable to walk when there are runners in scoring position. Other than that, it’s pretty much the same thing.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
But that little bit of extra value would show up in something like wOBA or wRC+, wouldn't it?
I mean, singles have a higher linear weight attached to them than walks. Maybe this is all a logical or semantic error by me or something. I might even be begging the question.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
If they have exactly the same OBP and SLG
I don’t think the difference is going to be all that great.
Also worth considering: Walk rates are generally more consistent than batting averages when assessing a player across multiple levels.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I guess I'd have to dig up the actual calculations to see how big the effect would be
The thing about walk rates is what makes me wonder if the Cardinals are trying to go after contact as a market inefficiency. Contact/BA isn’t as “stable” across levels as walk rates. That is established in aggregate. What I’m wondering is this: do the Cardinals think they can “beat the odds” with some special knowledge or improved approach to identify the players whose contact/BA rates will be more stable than other players?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I have a feeling "contact" rates are pretty stable.
While BA would not necessarily be stable (primarily due to BABIP). But hitters like Cox and Freese also have high LD% and low IFFB% – which will likely raise their BAs.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
This.
Excellent point.
Kolton Wong would fit in this mold as well.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Yeah, I actually meant to mention Wong
And yeah, Willie McGee’s Twin probably puts it better than I did.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
It would be very promising if we can feel confident that the organization may have found and is using a market inefficiency like this
But you have to wonder how much of this we lose because of Lunhow running the Astros
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 12:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Eh, maybe
But unless such a hypothetical approach depends on one guy’s (or a few guys’) special talent to recognize it, I am not worried. I would assume this approach would be more systematic than that and would survive the personnel changes.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I suspect the Cards believe that
high contact rate hitters are undervalued relative to other draft profiles.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Heh
I was going to basically say this, only in the form of a question (i.e., “I wonder if the Cardinals see contact skills as undervalued and have a scouting approach which identifies true skill”) but deleted it because I thought maybe that was too out-there to be plausible.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Both are good, obviously, but singles are quite a bit more valuable.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/run_values_of_events/
Singles are worth .47 runs, and unintentional walks are worth .32 (a 32% difference).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Right, I knew it wouldn't jump out as being hugely different, but it is still significant
Thanks for digging that up. I knew a table was out there on the internets somewhere. I always forget about that site, I need to get it into my regular internet baseball lineup.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I would probably disagree with your conclusion though.
Given that walks and singles are both very common events, a 32% difference in their run values is pretty big, IMO (what’s significant or huge are subjective, obviously). Of course, the two events are not mutually exclusive, and taking a walk is better than swinging at bad pitches to try to hit singles and then making outs, but a single is definitely more valuable than a walk.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
So basically it's up to whether a player can have it both ways
That is, to get more hits one needs to swing more, and the question is whether they can prevent a big enough drop in walks to end up with more value over all?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
True. And this just gets back to the old cliche
that good (and valuable) hitters swing at good pitches (and get hits) and lay off bad ones (and get walks) and bad hitters swing at bad pitches (striking out and hitting into outs).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Heh
I think we have successfully arrived at the logical conclusion that hitters should avoid outs! Now, about that job that the St. Louis Cardinals should be offering me right about now…
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Yes
But this isn’t factoring in the fact that walk rates tend to be more predictable in terms of skills than high batting averages. I think the difference, when talking about prospects, is pretty slight. I’d favor the player with better plate discipline over the high batting average player.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
So would I
Because I highly doubt I have the “secret knowledge” (if it even exists) to identify the guys who will consistently have higher BAs.
I really hope Matt Carpenter is able to keep up some modicum of BA/ISO in the majors. His walk rates are awesome, but even he could still end up not hitting enough.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Matt Carpenter's issues
have to do with slugging, not so much contact rates. He makes good contact and is disciplined enough to hit only the pitches that he can handle.
For someone who really enjoys hitters who work counts, like myself, he’s a really fun player to watch. His pitch and location recognition is incredible.
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I really hope he can get some playing time on the major league team this year
I got to see very little of him last year, and I almost never see minor league players actually play.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I see absolutely no room for him on the 40 man roster.
I would guess he stays at AAA and plays a lot in the OF.
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GAH
The big league roster, 25 spots. Signing Skippy pretty well makes sure that Carpenter doesn’t make the roster. He doesn’t have the positional flexibility to bump someone like Greene, Descalso or Jay and doesn’t hit enough to bump Allen Craig.
Just another reason why signing Schumaker makes no sense. He’s completely redundant.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Who gets in over Carp?
Our lineup is currently:
Berkman, Greene, Furcal, Freese, Yadier, Beltran, Jay, Holliday.
That leaves for the bench:
Cruz, Descalso, Skip, Carpenter, Chambers – right?
When Craig comes back, we bump Chambers. Do you think we’re going to have a 13 man pitching staff?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
The sad part is that
I think this may actually happen.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
No, I really don't think so.
In a Goold column, it says Cora was brought in, in part, to be an instructor for Descalso/Greene in ST. And someone on FR was saying Cora was thinking about looking for a coaching job when the Cards called with the offer. I think he’s there more to help with player development than as depth.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
Yes, I read all that.
The issue is that there is a spot for a veteran MIF on this club, especially if Schu is going to primarily fill an OF role, and I don’t underestimate Mo-theny’s ability to plug it with a worthless option like Cora.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
they could, but I'm just saying I don't think that's there intention at the moment.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
People seem to forget that we still have Komatsu
If (and I know that’s a big if) we keep Komatsu, and Craig begins the season on the DL, then I would bet on Carp being on the ML roster over Chambers. If Komatsu heads back to the Natties, then maybe Chambers makes the team, but I would still think Carp would be on there, and when Craig comes back, yeah, Chambers more likely to go back to Memphis. If Komatsu is still on the team when Craig comes back, then there’s more of an issue…
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
You're forgetting about Komatsu
Who will get every shot to make the roster. If he doesn’t, we have to send him back to the Nationals. I think it’s likely that we carry him instead of Chambers until Allen Craig is healthy, at which point a decision needs to be made.
Again, how idiotic is the Schumaker signing with regards to the current roster construction? At EVERY SINGLE POSITION that Schumaker could potentially play, there are better players ON THE CURRENT ROSTER. Not only that, one of those players is going to be at Memphis simply because Skip Schumaker is on the major league roster.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I suspect the Cards have identified. . .
some level of hard contact that makes up for some level of walk rate. I think you can see that in their selection of Wong, Cox, and Wallace.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Which is not to say. . .
that making hard contact is the same thing as a walk, of course, given that even hard contact sometimes turns into an out.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
no, because their slugging's are the same
batting average has no value if you have OBP and SLG.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Not true
The higher batting average will produce a higher wOBA because singles have a higher linear weight.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
but then it takes more extra base hits to get the same slugging
walks draw from all plate appearances.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 10, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
a hit is always better than a walk.
And a walk is not always better than an out.
A walk with a runner on second or third does not get a run home. Average has value.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I don't know what your point is
a hit is not always better than a walk, with two outs and the bases empty it doesn’t matter. At any rate, that’s not the point. Obviously a single is more valuable on average than a walk. However, if you have players with the same slugging the one with the lower batting average is going to have more extra base hits. So it probably just about evens out.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 10, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
There’s is also no reason why a third baseman has to be a good hitter. It’s a skill position (positive positional adjustment). Cox could be a league average hitter and still be a valuable player at third.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Cox is good and the hype isn't high at all.
Most lists leave him off of the top 100 entirely. The problem with many is his perceived lack of power. Law mentions that he shows above-average power in bp, and that a specific approach by Cox to use all fields has prevented him from turning on pitches and showing that power. Baseball America said very similar things.
Basically, the more trusted sources are high on Cox and see his power showing in game eventually, give him an above average hit tool and above average power to go with average defense at third. That’s a very valuable prospect.
and ichiro could hit 40 home runs a season, if he wanted to.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
And don't forget about...
Trevor Rosenthal listed as one of the players that just missed the top 100 cut.
KLaw's Top 10 in the organization...
who didn’t make the top 100 are Trevor Rosenthal, Kolten Wong, Matt Adams, and Joe Kelly.
Trevor Rosenthal was listed in the Top 10 Just Misses also.
Law congratulates the Cardinals on getting him in the 21st round out of a CC. Wants to see more/better breaking stuff before listing him as a certain future starter,
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by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
He also said on the Baseball Today podcast
that Rosenthal was an exciting player and a person to look for in upcoming top prospect lists.
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 9, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Rankings
These seem reasonable to me. Personally I’d have Taveras 10-20 spots higher and Cox 10-20 spots lower, but the others feel about right. It is splitting hairs in any event.
Swagerty had a real nice year last year-wasn’t phased at all in limited exposure in a hitter’s park in AA. IF he sticks as a starter (not an inconsiderable question) this could prove low at the end of the day. 92 may be a bit of a hedge. I guess we will see how he deals with an innings bump next year.
How awesome is it to get that kind of recognition for the system and not even factor in Wong, Adams and Rosenthal?
This is pretty much my thinking as well
How awesome is it to get that kind of recognition for the system and not even factor in Wong, Adams and Rosenthal?
I’ve seen Wong much higher on some lists (maybe it was only the minorleagueball community lists, but still, I was kind of surprised he wasn’t ranked higher among our guys by Law).
So far it seems pretty typical for us to have 5-6 players in the top 100, which is pretty amazing to me. I started following baseball pretty closely at a time when our farm was basically Colby Rasmus and a bunch of future bench players (maybe that was unfair to Jon Jay in retrospect but it seems like that was the consensus). It’s awesome to see us so competitive in the majors and with such a bright future in the minors at the same time.
Oh, and to go along with 6 guys in Law’s top 100 list, don’t we have something like 6 draft picks in the top 100 as well? Nice symmetry!
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
All three of those guys made his "just missed" list.
Law really likes our system. And to think, we were in the bottom 5 just 3 short years ago, and look at all the big league players we have that came out of THAT farm system (Motte, Boggs, Sanchez, Salas, Freese, Jay, Craig, Garcia).
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Also: Chris Perez
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
The validation of the whole "these guys aren't stars but trust us, they can play in the big leagues" thing is pretty cool too
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I.E., the Jays and Mottes and Craigs of the world
Is it still accurate to say that Garcia has surpassed expectations?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Well, Craig could be a star
Probably won’t be, but he’s definitely a starter in the corner OF or at 1st and the man can hit!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And Colby Rasmus...
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Rosenthal was the only one that made the Just Missed the Top 100 list.
The others were on his Cardinals Top 10, rounded out by Joe Kelly.
I agree with the rest of this though.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Law specifically did not like Wong before the draft, so it's not surprising that he still doesn't like him.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
This is what Keith had to say about Wong in the comments section:
“What’s his ceiling? Average regular at 2b? No power, not a burner, not likely to be a plus defender (certainly isn’t one now).”
Honestly, there were bunches of people here and on Future Redbirds (and other places, preusmably)
That disliked or even hated the Wong pick, primarily for the same critique Law makes – lack of upside.
Truthfully, if someone dislike/hated the Wong pick then, they should still hate/dislike it now. Even among people who disliked the pick, there probably wasn’t much doubt that Wong was ready to succeed in the lower minors given his polish/readiness, and he has done just that. The question was always whether he would be successful in the majors or would have a high ceiling and those questions still haven’t been answered.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody knew he could do back flips.
Now we do.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, lots of people were down on him
His awesome first season in the minors seems to have flipped a lot of people’s opinions about him.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Yup.
And his awesome first season really shouldn’t have flipped any of the “haters.” Their complaint was that he was a college 2B who was very high floor/low ceiling and that he was “safe” – these are the players that we expect to be very good in the low minors.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
I understand the "haters" point.
Still I liked the High floor/low ceiling pick at 2B because we REALLY need a 2B, like now.
"We will see you....Tomorrow Night"
Yeah, I understood their point. It may still be a valid one, and it's one Law still believes (which I give him credit for - he may be right in the end).
I was really saying it to point out that a lot of the people are being hypocritical, or at least intellectually inconsistent. They hated Wong when he was picked, but have since jumped on the bandwagon. Perhaps some even go so far as to complain that Wong is not high enough on these prospects lists.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I hated the pick as it happened
But warmed up in the few days after. He was only like 19 when he was picked as a college junior, led the nation in park/league adjusted wOBA, and played a premium defensive position
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I think his age was one thing people very much overlooked.
I also think it’s interesting that Shelby Miller and Wong were born on the same day.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Whaaaa? Really?
I really need to take a closer look at these things.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I would agree with this more if he'd come from
A high-pedigree school like ASU. Coming from Hawaii, a lot of people had concerns about his skill level because Hawaii is so poorly scouted.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My sense at the time of the draft
wasn’t that there were lots of people concerned about his skill level – rather there were lots of people concerned about his tools and upside.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think people were still edgy about MIFs with low upside in a post-Kozma world.
Seeing that he had a legitimate bat put a lot of people at ease. Kozma never really hit that impressively at any level.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, this is the sort of bogus rationalization I'm talking about.
First it relies on flimsy similarities between Kozma and Wong, who don’t have much of anything in common other than being MIFs (not even the same position) who were drafted in the first round by the Cards.
And second, it was always assumed that Wong had the bat to be successful in the low minors – he’d already had success in multiple seasons in college. It was a given. That’s what being “safe” and “high floor” mean. The fact that he’s accomplished what was always expected – success in A ball — shouldn’t alter the original critique – low ceiling/lack of tools, leading to a player who won’t have much success in the majors.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Some of us (me!) were pumped up about the pitching prospects in this draft thanks to people that know more than us
So while we liked Wong, we were upset that we missed out on that pitching. I also personally misunderstood Wong’s scouting to be “bad hitter” not “low ceiling”. Now that understand Wong to just be “low ceiling” and understand more about just how volitale pitching prospects are and how much more valuable a position player is anyway (angry Astros fans disagree and storm our blog for this comment in 3,2,1. . .) I really have grown to like Wong
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Damn it
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, if you were someone who BOTH liked Wong
but was upset that a high upside pitcher wasn’t taken, then I would say you were a very small minority.
Also, I don’t remember any scouting reports saying that Wong was a “bad hitter” – “advanced college bat” was his main selling point.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
I think the bad hitter part was a conclusion I drew from the scores of Kozma references
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 2:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
if you'd asked me to guess his first-year line the day
After the draft, I would not have said that he’d have a .300/.400/.500 year.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 1:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ok
but if the concern is tools/upside, does that line over only 217 PAs in low-A (with a .349 BABIP), cause someone to flip their position on Wong’s tools/upside?
Bottom line, IMO, people really knew little about Wong at the time of the draft – they simply latched onto the narrative of “high floor/low ceiling 2B who will sign for slot,” “polished college hitter” and “average tools,” and combined it with another narrative about the Cards’ continuing failure to take high ceiling HS arms (Taylor Guerrieri being a popular choice) and dumped on the pick. Now, Wong is rising up prospects lists and the reason why he was disliked has been glossed over.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Daniel Norris!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
that seems like a lazy statement with a lot of holes in it.
The defense is a valid point, but very few 2b have much power to speak of, and those that do are all-stars. Being a “burner” is vastly overrated. It’s entirely possible to be a very solid 2b (3-4 WAR) with a good OBP, good contact, and some line drive ability.
I’d be willing to bet there are several guys in Law’s top 100 who put up worse lines at comparable levels relative to Wong’s 2011.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 12:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And the defensive reports I've heard are average to slightly above at 2B.
That’s hardly anything to be down about.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Placido Polanco is who we are hoping for out of Wong
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yes! Pretty sure I made this comparison on draft day.
Though I don’t think his defense has been rated as highly, he also has more speed. I guess that doesn’t balance out, but certainly a Polanco type offensive profile.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
41.4 WAR for his career, peak years of 5.6, 5.4, 4.5
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Could soon pass HOF vote getters Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams (45.8 and 47.5, respectively)
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but a lot of his value comes from position and defense, which I think voters undervalue
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Absolutely
Pointing out just how undervalued he is. He’s never mentioned in the same tier as those guys, and not just because he’s not a Yankee. I’d be interested to see how his WAR/$ stacks up to Rolen’s after that trade. I loved Rolen, but I wonder how great of a trade that was.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Well, to be fair. . .
Rolen’s value was hindered by a traumatic injury.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yup, traumatic and unpredictable twice over.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Bud Smith!!!!!!!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He'll never be that good a defender
I think he’ll have more doubles power than Polanco — he’s not a slap hitter. But he doesn’t have the arm to play 3B on a regular basis either.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
That would be nuts
Polanco is like the best contact hitter of the past 20 years.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Yes this is what I said
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Could you explain what you mean by this?
Polanco is like the best contact hitter of the past 20 years.
Do you mean he has been highly successful “despite” being a contact hitter (based on overall value), or that he is the bet at hitting for contact in the last 20 years? If it is the latter I don’t really see it. For most of his hitting career he has been the ideal that Skip Schumaker aspires to, with a few high-BA seasons that were way better than his usual output.
Wouldn’t the latter be someone like Tony Gwynn or Ichiro?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Polanco for his career has a 6.7% K rate
Tony Gwynn is 4.2%, but he retired 10 years ago, so he doesn’t fit my range. I mean that Polanco’s ability to hit for contact is one of the reasons he’s such a great player. His walk rate is solid as well, and he has a bit of pop. But his ability to make contact (and hit for a highish BABIP) is probably his best asset.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
This is also true of Kolten Wong
Which is why I say that we hope that he becomes Placido Polanco
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
yeah i wasn't disagreeing
i was saying it be nuts if wong actually reached polanco’s level.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Oh, I thought you were saying my idea was nuts
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I think you're idea is bad.
(Bad as in good. Not bad as in bad.)
"He probably misses his old glasses."
He doesn't have the defensive pedigree to make this happen
He’s not a good defender right now, so I find it hard to believe he becomes a +10 run defender or better (as Polanco has been at both 2B and 3B in his career) at second base. He doesn’t have the arm strength to play 3B.
Offensively, I can see why you would make this type of comparison. But defensively, this just doesn’t hold.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Chase Utley, Dustin Pedroia, and Mark Ellis are all around that hitting profile,
just with + defense. If we get one of them with average defense, I will be MFing ecstatic.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Even if he posts two win seasons in 2014-16...
that’s something like $30 million in value for $2 million.
We need these guys if we’re going to overpay for Hamels.
Sign Roy O
We're signing Hamels?
nice
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Not having Wong on there is my only gripe.
But Keith didn’t like him before the draft, and it seems to take him a while to come around on a prospect he previously didn’t care for.
I do and do not understand the Pujols leaving complication on signing Molina
Yes, it’s clear there is a bromance there and as a human being (sorry azru) we all recognize that the emotional elements can factor into decisions, but at the same time, the Pujols departure shows me that there is no ‘emotive’ element when it comes to signing contracts with teams. It is all about money.
Resigning Yadi will come down to our valuation and his valuation being equal or very close to equal. To that end, DanUp’s 1, 3, and 4 points indicate to me that if we were to sign Yadi prior to this season, we would be signing him at absolute peak value.
Therefore, it may be more prudent to wait until after the season, to see if there is improvement, regression, and/or plateauing. In the event he improves, then you use the expiring contracts of westy/kyle/kyle2 and lance to fit Yadi’s price into your budget. If not, then the ‘cost’ to resign him does not increase, and you are no worse off.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
I think the point DanUp was trying to make. . .
is that there will be more public pressure to sign Molina than there would have been otherwise, thanks to Pujols walking.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
it will probably be similar with waino and others too.
but i don’t think that yadi will take the same lousy approach that albert did. yadi seems to truly appreciate everything the org and the fans. i think he’ll truly put STL first and everybody else second, even if there are going to be teams willing to pay for his services.
I don't think Yadi will be back.
By disrespecting Albert, they disrespected Yadi. He’ll be an Angel next year.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Can't tell if serious
I don’t know how Albert was disrespected. They offered him a short deal with a high AAV and when he scoffed they offered him a large deal with a lower AAV. I guess because his ego wasn’t stroked and he wasn’t “guaranteed” a PSC, he felt “disrespected.”
He can take the ego to Anaheim, he’ll fit right in.
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 9, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Wont it depend on how much they offer yadi as compared to what other teams are offering at the time?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 11:02 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Wont it depend on how much they offer yadi as compared to what other teams are offering at the time?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 11:02 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
i completely disagree.
i think the yadi talks and pujols talks are exclusive of one another.
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 9, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
you guys are too easy.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
obviously.
missed the sarcasm font.
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 9, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
VEB, I need your help.
I have possibly the worst sinuses I’ve ever had with my head feeling so bad my only comparison is when I got a mild concussion back in eighth grade.
It got really bad yesterday and is pretty much the same today. Is there a way to treat this or am I supposed to suck it up?
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
Sounds like you need an anti-inflammatory nasal spray
Most of these are prescription only, but they work wonders.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Like Afrin or something
That stuff works wonders on me but I can’t remember if it is available over the counter or not.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
No, not Afrin
I’m talking about non-steroidal anti-inflammatory nasal sprays.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Ah
Obviously the steroidal ones have problems.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Side effects include being excluded from Halls of Fame.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
by TBender on Feb 9, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Stuff like Afrin only works for a short time
like, a couple of days. You need higher and higher doses to get the same effect after a while and it can also hide the symptoms of a full blown sinus infection, at which point you should be irrigating your nasal passages as much as possible.
FWIW — I’ve never found that antibiotic treatments work worth a shit for sinus infections. And considering what they do to you digestive system, I think it’s best to just irrigate a lot and avoid them altogether unless they are really effective.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Right, it's definitely important for people to know the limitations with the various drugs
But Afrin always worked wonders for me. My mom is actually a pediatrician, so I had the benefit of having an expert around to tell me exactly what to do with stuff like that. I would periodically get pretty bad sinus infections when I was a kid, as well as just having bad allergies.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Just use the correct water
I heard some story about a couple who didn’t. Died from amoeba infection
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Feb 9, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Distilled saline solution
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
yep folks down south died from using water with amoebas...
use the bottled kind please…
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
Or. . .
presumably, water from a municipal water system that has been treated with chemicals to make it organism-free?
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think they used tap water..
it was Louisiana thought I believe
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
This..
Really works too I hear. I work in the Medical Research field (IT though, not the brains of the operations hehe) and they swear by the Neti-Pot treatments.
by CardinalFan4Ever on Feb 9, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
How much does this usually cost?
It sounds like exactly what I’m looking for.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
Why can't you use, like, a syringe?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
You can
15 buck from Wal-mart the doctor said. Also said you could substitute a squeeze bottle as well.
by CardinalFan4Ever on Feb 9, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Too much volume. . .
although there is a squueze bottle that IMHO is much easier to use.
Power washers, OTOH, are probably not recommended.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
the concept of power washer up the nose just made me cringe.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
You can come over and borrow mine.
I’ve flicked off most of the dried mucus.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
apparently you get mercury poisoning from netipot
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Mine is plastic.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 9, 2012 4:32 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
how in the world do you get mercury poisoning from a netipot
That makes no sense
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 9, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
i dunno
my mom sent me some article that i didn’t read.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
Get something with a lot of pseudoephedrine
preferably with some sort of anti-histamine. You may have to try multiple anti-histamines to see which works for you. My go to is Claratin, but Zyrtec and others have been known to help.
But the important part is to get the “D” versions of the medicine (those with the pseudoephedrine).
#givelancechants
Alright so all of these suggestions are harder (without a car) to obtain unless I go home.
I was leaning towards that already and will probably end up just spending weekend in St. Louis.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Feb 9, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Is there not a Walgreens or CVS within walking distance of campus?
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Afrin nasal spray is over the counter.
It shrinks everything to open the passages. But after a day or two you’ll get rebound when you stop. Combine that with pseudoephedrine, ibuprofen and saline rinse.
Sweet! I need to read threads more before commenting...
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
cocaine will open the nasal passages
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
by tehzachatak on Feb 9, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
its a hell of a drug
Rick James approves
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 9, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Mucinex to decongest
and an nsaid (ibprofen) to take down the swelling and inflamation of the lining. These should reduce the symptoms to a point where your body can heal on it’s own over a 4-5 day period.
Works for me at least.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
+1 on mucinex
by far the best OTC drug i’ve found for sinus issues.
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 9, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard some horror stories with Mucinex though
Like completely losing your sense of smell for long periods of time.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Not everyone does
However, I’m not willing to take that risk.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Sometimes that not a bad thing though,
for example, if you live in Cahokia or Sauget.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
never heard of this with Mucinex, it was a reported problem with the nasal form of zicam
There were lawsuits concerning this.
yeah, zicam is terrible.
and i HAVE heard of this problem with that drug, although i wonder what people were expecting rubbing zinc all over the inside of their nose.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
The Zicam gels
were the culprit, but it has been a reported side effect of Mucinex as well.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Okay, I just haven't seen any lawsuits or FDA advisory as there was with the Zicam nasal swabs
So as a mucinex user, I’m not too concerned.
I tried mucinex once and it left me very dried out with a bad headache
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 2:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Eat when taking Mucinex, plus lots of extra water.
That usually helps.
by openside on Feb 9, 2012 3:00 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yeah, you have to overhydrate with Mucinex
There is nothing better (well, at least not OTC) to help thin out chest congestion, IMHO.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 9, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
not supposed to crush it up and snort it
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Did you learn your lesson?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 4:57 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I'm not sure where you're at, but there is a horrible bug goin round in my neck of the woods
I’ve had it for about 2 weeks. My kid had it, and it progressed into pneumonia. My young nephews had it, and they have pneumonia, too. My kid’s pediatritian says she hasn’t ever seen anything like it.
The only way I’ve been fighting it off is with long, hot showers and Advil Cold & Sinus.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Feb 9, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Here in Central Hellanoise
Same kind of thing. Got it twice, both times were awful. Throat for a day, then nasty chest cold.
by openside on Feb 9, 2012 12:32 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Ive heard it called the illinois crud
Its probably a mutated form of influenza, right?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 2:58 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
a lot of nyquil, tylenol PM, and three shots of whiskey
/GDM response
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 9, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Neti pot if it's not bad
Mucinex-D plus Neti pot if it is bad.
Also jump on the chance to be around steam, whether it’s a hit shower, hot bath, Sauna, not turning the fan on over the stove when making Ramen, whatever.
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
one word...
Wasabi
That stuff clears all your nasal passages and quick like…
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
I wonder if advances in valuating catcher defense will settle how much of the WAR gap is due to that, and how much is just from less playing time
Or is it possible that the improved defensive value plus positional adjustment will totally negate it?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
The hardest part about measuring catcher defense
is how they “manage” the pitching staff. To me this is definitely a thing and is almost impossible to measure.
"We will see you....Tomorrow Night"
Yeah I was going to say that
I’m not sure how much value framing actually gives but it certainly raises the range in catcher WAR.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
And lowers overall pitcher WAR
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
A little help
I think I’m ashamed that I don’t know this, but how do we attribute minor league players’ salaries to major league payroll?
For instance, Tyler Greene. Is he paid a pro-rated portion of the league minimum? Does the big league club pay for the full salary of everyone on the 40 man roster?
I believe I remember that it is the former, but when looking at a team’s total payroll ($100M or $110M or $116M, etc), how do we attribute those amounts?
Thanks in advance, I’ll hang up and listen.
If they are on the 40 man roster and do not have a major league contract
they are paid a pro-rated amount based on the number of days they are on the active roster during the season. I believe their pay is based on the same scale as their service time is accrued, but I’m not totally sure on that.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Daric Barton moved to catcher?
I live in the bay area and didn’t even know that.
/No one pays attention to the A’s.
danup is makinga crack about players returning
To their original role. Wallace was drafted as a 3b, but had moved to first. Wallace actually moved back to third, which is almost as cool as daric barton going back to catcher (where he played when drafted), which has not happened. Neither would be as cool as rick ankiel going back to the mound, which also has not (yet) happened.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 12:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
it makes them funnier when you explain them!
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 1:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It's a big hat. It's funny.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Feb 9, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Burt Reynolds
That’s not my name
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 1:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Turd Ferguson
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I know the CBS fantasy leagues are expensive,
but this sounds intriguing:
NEW – Coming in April: Subscribers to both MLB.TV & CBSSports.com Fantasy Baseball Commissioner can watch their fantasy teams LIVE via a customized channel that automatically switches between MLB games to bring you the at-bats with the most fantasy relevance to your team. This revolutionary channel makes it possible for you to follow live video of your entire fantasy team every night, all season long.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 12:44 PM EST reply actions
I'm also interested in how they're tagging the video streams
to enable this to happen.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
You could do this manually before.
I had a watch list where I listed all my fantasy players, and it would alert me when they were coming to bat and stuff. then I’d switch games accordingly.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Um, idk, my friend stopped renewing his MLBtv subscription a year or two ago, therefore I have no MLBtv.
But there was a way to list your “favorite” players or something on MLBtv. (they’re still listed as my buddy’s favorite players on his MLB.com account, lol) And MLBtv would auto let me know when they were on deck, at bat, warming up, pitching, etc. You might have to keep the fav player list open or something.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Too bad that their interface is the most horrendous thing I've ever been a part of.
Also, three month draft.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
So now my fantasy league will cost
$400 a year instead of the absurd $180 a year — I’m sure they’ll be jacking up the price for this functionality.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I think it's still $180 and they have a whopping $20 off now.
But you also have to subscribe to MLB.tv to get this, so factor that in.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I do that anyway.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Wow, this will be a gold-mine in fantasy football, like a personal redzone channel
The NFL must be licking its chops over this sort of technology.
fritz ranks the intangibles of the nl central.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 1:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Ranking of Fritz's explanations
1. Reds
2. Cards
3. Cubs
4. Pirates
5. Astros
6. Brewers
#givelancechants
I would buy this book.
Marlon Byrd is an Asshole by Kerry Wood.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Feb 9, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
this one made me lol
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
The Astros was going to be better, but figured Dan didn't need to get an e-mail from the corporate overlords
wondering why someone released Luhnow’s secret “final solution” and why he refers to Brad Mills as Goebbels.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 9, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Android app rec
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 9, 2012 4:34 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Go for the snark,
stay for the Brooklyn Decker ad.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
I give this a Facebook thumbs up
Thank you Fritz
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 2:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
K-Law hates Kolten Wong
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
I feel like Keith Law has a blind spot towards 2B prospects with good hit tools but aren't toolsy
Which is pretty explainable. I just see a lot of similarities between how he described Dustin Pedroia and how he currently describes Kolten Wong
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
It fascinates me that Law and Sickels have different views on Wong.
by KD1 on Feb 9, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
2B prospects overall.
There were very few in his top 100, weren’t there?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
None
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
By this fact, I conclude that Kolten Wong is the best second baseman prospect in all of baseball.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Well, Schoop is kind of a 2B
If he ends up there, he’s better than Wong
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I'm just going to call Wong the best second baseman prospect in baseball until Schoop is relegated to the position full-time.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
here's law's explanation re: Wong
Did Kolten Wong finish anywhere close?
No, lacks the upside for this list. Best case scenario is a 50, solid-average big leaguer.
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
also, in the same chat,
he says we should have taken Mahtook with that pick.
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
ugh, hate it when i do this.
by “we” i meant the cardinals, in whose decision making process i have no input whatsoever.
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
I think it's a stupid thing to get upset about (a la Goldstein)
Teams foster their PR so that fans feel a sense of belonging with the team
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
And fans didn't feel that way, they probably wouldn't have enough interest in prospects to afford Goldstein a living.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
I try not to do it either, but it's hardly anything to feel bad about.
typing “we” is a heck of a lot easier that “St. Louis” or “the Cardinals”.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
I wonder what ratings he would give the current crop of MLB second basemen.
Basically, I want to know what type of players are representative of what Law views as Wong’s ceiling.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking Guerreri at the time.
Both he and Mahtook taken by Rays.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
That's not THAT crazy though, since 2B are often former SS/3B prospects
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
If given the choice of adding Swagerty or Wong to their organization...
I would think most teams would pick Wong…
Sign Roy O
yeah, this is my problem with the numerical rankings-
i think something like this is often true. maybe Swagerty is a “better” prospect, although i’m not even sure what this means, but the expected value out of Wong is probably higher to any given organization, no?
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
this week, key and peele reminded me of what
“Z. Cavarrici’s” were and what an abomination they were. Oh god, I had managed to forget.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 9, 2012 1:35 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Ank is hanging out in Jupiter apparently
Wainwright threw 30 pitches warming up and another 30 to Cardinals infielder Tyler Greene, minor leaguers Robert Stock and Joseph Bergman, and former teammate Rick Ankiel.
He did this last year, too.
It’s kind of sad now, like the 22 year old that still goes to high school parties.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I keep getting' older, they stay the same age
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 2:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
When will Rich Harden realise
that he should just stop trying and transplant his brain into an android.
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
Those As pitchers hold up about as well as a Dusty Baker bullpen.....
Buyer beware.
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
Based on perusing MLB Trade Rumors
It still seems like we are the favorites to sign Oswalt. The Phillies can’t afford him, he doesn’t want to go to the Pirates, the Rangers don’t want him. That just leaves us and the Red Sox. And there’s been “no progress” in talks between Oswalt in the Red Sox.
Does anyone know what we offered him? I’m guess 7.5 million and a non-garauntee to be in the rotation.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
I'm guessing we would guarantee he'd be in the rotation.
Otherwise, why get him?
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
yeah probably
there was some language about “role”, but i probably shouldn’t read too much into that.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
I'm thinking that this is the only place he wants to go.
I bet his agent called the Reds so the rumor would get to Mozeliak in an effort to get more monies from us / increase his leverage. Jocketty shot the rumors down. I’m guessing that he comes here for cheap
by Cheeseballs on Feb 9, 2012 3:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have a credible source
that says my wife will be induced next Friday.
Asked for comment, Action Jaxon replied, “I’m scared shitless!”
More details to follow…
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Feb 9, 2012 2:42 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
This is kinda cool, anybody seen it?
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/testing-projections-for-2011/
I’ve never even heard of “Steamer”.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
They are more popular in Cleveland
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
wonder how far Lunhow was along into draft analysis for this year before
bolting to the Stros ?
any way he f$cks up our draft knowing our strategy ?
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
I'd say he is more worried about the Astros than what he can do to mess up the Cardinals.
#givelancechants
I'll be concerened if he throws salt in Mozeliak's eyes and Carlos Lee bodysams him right before the draft.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Isn't Carlos Lee's finishing maneuver the Banzai Drop in this scenario?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
It is, but he has to get Mo on the ground first.
Hopefully someone interferes before that happens.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Mah Gawd! That's Big Puma Berkman's music!!!!!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
LUHNOW HAS JUST THROWN MOZELIAK THROUGH THE WINDOW OF THE BEEFCAKE'S BARBER SHOP
OH MY GAAAWWWD
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
BERK 1ST BASEMAN BARBER BEEFCAKE
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Haha, what is this from?
Looks like a magazine fitness shoot.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 9, 2012 4:37 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I doubt it.
Certainly not in the early going — they have the first overall pick, and don’t pick again until the compensation round with pick #41. Presumably they could take a guy we wanted at #52, but it seems unlikely and the Cards have three picks before the Astros 2nd pick.
After that they pick at the top of every round and the Cards pick 23rd in every round, which makes it less likely they’ll be targeting the same guys with 22 picks in between. I might have some concern regarding guys that the Cards were targeting in later rounds, but the draft is still so far off, even that I wouldn’t be too concerned about.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
My problem with prospect lists, and especially ones such as Law's this year that weight ceiling
Is that a lot of it is we haven’t seen enough of those players yet to identify their flaws. I was reminded of it by one of Cameron’s articles on Fangraphs today, and he uses the example of Alonso at #69. At this point, we know basically exactly who he is: He’s a 1B who’ll make contact and get on base, with mediocre power. That’s because he’s at AAA and we’ve seen a lot of him
Jurickson Profar, though, has only played two seasons in A ball. He has flaws, surely, we just haven’t identified them yet. I don’t know how to remedy this problem, necessarily, but it is an inherent issue with most lists
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
From what's been posted in terms of excerpts--specifically, with Taveras--
it seems that Law has identified flaws in these players. It’s just a matter of how much the flaws will hurt their value moving forward. There’s a greater risk projecting A-ball players than AAA players, to be sure, but I think this is a problem with any list, as you note, and so long as a writer lays out his criteria, as Law does, I don’t think it’s that much of a problem.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Some flaws aren't exposed until the higher minors though, yeah?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I imagine this happens with some players.
But I think that, with a lot of players, knowledgable scouts can project their future problems. It’s then a question of degree as to how detrimental the problems become.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 9, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
The way I view these Top 100 lists is basically this
If our dude is in the Top 10 or so, I’m pretty stoked about that.
If our dude is anywhere else at all on the list, I’m stoked about that also, but being at #23 and #87 doesn’t really affect the level of stoke.
They're really more fun to read and look at then to take as serious rankings.
More like a list of guys to either a) look for as a potential call-up, or b) keep an eye on to see if they make progress toward their potential.
Teams obviously don’t look at prospects in terms of ranking. It’s more subjective and about how they fit their needs now and in the future.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
i think you just project expected value as best you can.
there’s going to be flaws in any type of system- by the very nature of projections, the margin of error for early minors prospects are going to be higher. it would be great if we actually projected some one number (like the way VEP says scouting works), and could quantify the error in it- then you’d see that our projections for players with less history are less specific.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
well the rankings should theoretically be that one number
because the only the thing you should care about out of a prospect is projected value over their team years, with a distribution attached based on each player (pitchers are more variable than hitters). I’m sure that’s not actually how the rankings work though.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 10, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
So, if we bomb this year due to injuries, and Yadi isn't one of those injuries
Do we deal him @ the deadline for prospects or hold on and re-sign?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 3:57 PM EST via mobile reply actions
imony
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 9, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
64% D
Please have your parents sign and return
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
WORSE. GRADESCHOOL. FEELING. EVER.
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 9, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Worst
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 9, 2012 5:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
typo.
i’ve been good at those today.
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 9, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's probably why he got a D.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Feb 9, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
osterone
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 9, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
"How can your name be short for 'Testicles'
when you have none?" – Chris Jericho
In case anyone missed it with all the KLaw Prospecting, the MLB.com Cards Top 20 list is out.
Pretty, uh, … interesting choices. 10-20 are especially odd, imo.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
Though I am excited to see Scott Gorgen mentioned, and would like to know more of Andres Serrano.
Does anyone have an update on Gorgen or some info on Serrano?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
Serrano is a 17yo RHP, 6'3'/185, and was signed out of the DR in Oct. 2011 for $750K
I think Cardinalnation.com may have more info behind their pay wall, but I don’t know what info that might be.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 9, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Which seems odd to me, because he doesn't strike me as uninformed during the draft coverage.
Or maybe I’m forgetful.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 9, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
I completely agree.
I think that draft coverage is more formulaic and less vetted than prospect coverage though. It’s easy to pick out someone who doesn’t have a good grasp of the major prospects (especially when they are writing about your specific team’s prospects) but much harder to do so when they are talking about new draftees. I like Mayo on MLBN during the draft but his prospect coverage needs work.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
who the shit is Michael Blazek
that’s a fucking awesome last name though
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
RHP who spent most of last year at Springfield
Unlikely to be a major leaguer, imo
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
WAINO
“I just feel really good,” Wainwright emphasized. “I feel strong. I feel ready to go. It’s one of the things where the power of understatement can be really great. But at the same time Cardinal fans should know that I’m feeling pretty danged good.”
Watch your mouth, Adam!
BSOHL?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 5:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know not your acronym. I was saying best shape of his life
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 6:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Gotcha, CCDGAFABSOHL
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 9, 2012 7:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Was just about to post the "danged good" quote
watch out hitters!
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 5:52 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
if VEB was in full season swing, "danged good" would already be a meme
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 9, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
Heh
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 5:53 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yahoo fantasy baseball leagues are open for registration
…they’re getting pretty hammered at the moment, though. I’m not having much luck getting my league set up.
Thnx
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 9, 2012 6:57 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Team MooCow...
…is ready to kick all yer cowlective butts…
;=8)
2011 World Series Champions!
And that is NERTLERB!!!!!!!!!!
:=8D
so rich harden
is having surgery (I know sky blue…). What I was wonder, who picks up the tab on that? His most recent employer? as the injury was work related? his own insurance?
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
Wanting a good baseball-only magazine to read.
Suggestions?
by cardinalswsbound on Feb 9, 2012 7:04 PM EST reply actions
Latest CAIRO projections came out a couple days ago
Was this already mentioned?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I still don't understand how getting cross checked into the goalie is a penalty on the person that gets cross checked
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
GOALIE IS SACRED
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
So if I want a power play
I just wait until someone skates near the goalie, then shove him into the goalie? Fair enough
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
It has been so since the beginning of time:
Thou shalt not touch the goalie.
(Didn’t see it, but I hear you.)
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. - Joe Posnanski
kinda like the quarterback
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 9, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm with ya
but They Scored! so it’s all OK.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yadi should be a Redbird for life
It’s as Yahweh wants it.
Also, I don’t eat catsup on hot dogs or hamburgers. I just don’t, and I don’t care who knows it.
Also, is it catsup or ketchup? I repeat: IS IT CATSUP OR KETCHUP????
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
by Cha-Cha on Feb 9, 2012 9:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I put ketchup on lots of things
including, on occasion, my scrambled eggs (although I often go with Cholula or Tabasco. I especially like ketchup on hamburgers and hot dogs and hash browns.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I like to mix Tabasco into ketchup.
Best ever for fries.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
This. Plain hot sauce with eggs, mixed with ketchup for fries. And some spicy brown mustard next to it.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
yeah, that's why i do
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
man you all making me hungry again, i just finished lunch an or so ago..
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 9, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
You were the one interested in A Dance to the Music of Time, right?
I just got it. I’m getting in bed to get started in a couple of minutes.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I've got it sitting in my Amazon cart
waiting to see if I can find someone I trust who’s already read it before buying the whole set.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
I just bought the first movement. The three books in it are between 200 and 250 pages,
and the print and margins are pretty big. I don’t think it’s as enormous an undertaking as it might seem. I’ll let you know, though!
Excellent, looking foward to it.
In the meantime, I’m still re-reading The Wheel of Time books (middle of #9). Ready for some mainstreamfi fiction.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
The Wheel of Time looks like a huge series, I'm going to have to
start into that one, one of these days.
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 10, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'm somewhere in the middle of it too, it was a little daunting at first
Also, it’s so long that after a while you start to get really annoyed at certain characters’ habits or certain habits of the narration… but I like the overall story enough that I plan to finish it.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I'm in the middle of book eight!
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
nah nah, this shit right here
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
my godmother once made a tub full of pull pork
this was sooo good on it.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
uh, yeah i guess
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I haven't really paid attention to how long I've used it, to be honest.
It was a good choice on your part.
i'm disappointed you never made a WOOOOOO comment
the contrast would have been nice.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah!
“Hey mom, fink finally made a wooooooo comment!”
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I do love the deli brown though
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
How'd your kimchi making go, did you make it yet or thinking about it.
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 9, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't make it yet, but I have some nice Napa Cabbage in the fridge for that purpose.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Cool, I know when my wife makes it, it's a pretty time consuming activity,
takes her pretty near a full day and more to make it all.
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 9, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
yep, I'll ask her for it, well she does make alot, I think she made her last batch
in October or November, I do know, it takes alot of garlic, she does go to farms and buy’s the red pepper, in bulk, then takes it home to lay it out in the parking lot to dry for a few days, after it’s dry she’ll take it to the mill where they will make a red paste out of it.
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 9, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
that's intense
i just use pre dried flaked pepper… the fresh peppers would be awesome though.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
It'll stink up the house
is what I hear.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Over easy/medium eggs with Frank's RedHot
Piece of toast. Perfect breakfast, or perfectest breakfast?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I'd like to nominate the Norms special
Sirloin steak and eggs, hash browns, and pancakes. 6 bucks.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
I've been making Eggs in the Nest for my daughter almost every day in the last couple of weeks.
Pretty damn good, and reminds me of my childhood.
(gluten-free bread, of course)
are you gonna feed her meat when she has enough teeth?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Which ones?
Clams? Oysters? And does she like shrimp?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Never had that actually
But I like to use the bread to assist in eating the egg.
I think the combination of egg yolk cooked just right with hot sauce might actually be magic. I like it very much. But the yolk can’t be too runny, it needs to be a little gooey, like a soft-boiled egg. And uncooked egg white is not OK.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
My daughter actually really likes soft-boiled eggs. I used the four minute method.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Use, not used
Anyway, I have become pretty good at it. I don’t even like them myself by the wife and kid do.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
but, not by?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Geez, it's typo night and apparently I'm buying a round for everybody
Typos on me dudes, don’t worry about it.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I and my family usually prefer our eggs poached
soft-to-medium. Get water to near boiling, turn the heat down, crack egg into water, let it sit for about 3½ minutes, remove and put on toast (me) or in a ramekin (rest of my family). My family also loves avocado toast for breakfast.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
You guys are killing me.
Stupid gallbladder won’t let me eat fat.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 9, 2012 11:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Well, I prob. shouldn't be eating eggs
as they’re considered high in cholesterol, but I’m hoping my meds will overcome the 2-3 times a month that I eat them.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's now accepted that
saturated fat is what affects your cholesterol, not the dietary cholesterol you consume.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 9, 2012 11:52 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Well, that's ok then.
I still won’t eat them much, as I rarely eat breakfast anyway. But on occasion, I will throw an extra egg into the pot.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
My college roommate and I considered ketchup a 6th food group
we even bought it in those huge 5lb cans
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 9, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
My senior college apartment mate and I
were both in the Math Dept., and the Math para-professional was also a rep for Budweiser. For $6, we could get a case of Bud in the glass bottles, all we had to do was make sure we returned all the bottles. Kept our mini-fridge full all year. Of course, this was in the late 70’s.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
$6 for a case of Bud in the 70s seems expensive, actually
that’s like .25 cents a beer.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Trust me, it was still a deal, even back then.
But not by a whole bunch. I think we were saving about $2 a case? Can’t remember for sure.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 10, 2012 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
I put sriracha sauce on pretty much everything.
It’s the wonder condiment
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 9, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Cholula on eggs, popcorn, and hummus.
Egg whites, cholula, turkey bacon and nondairy cheddar “cheese” on flax toast is a very happy breakfast.
by openside on Feb 10, 2012 1:02 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Cholula is pretty awesome
en general. I actually really like the garlic and lime varieties too.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
sriracha rulz
no doubt
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 10, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
This is going on his B-Ref page:
His name is Rhéal, he’s a Hall of Famer now
Sixteen seasons of lefty pitch know-how
And when he pitched he really piled up the outs
Oh Rhéal, Rhéal a Hall of Famer without a doubt
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 10:05 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
It's a little repetitive.
I may tweak it later.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
is he?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 10, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
Waaaaay OT:
I really, really liked Ok Go’s SB video, and, never having heard of them or seen them before, I went looking for others they had done. I’ve liked everything I’ve seen, but this one is just too cool…
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 10:18 PM EST reply actions
what a handsome young man
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 9, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
Heh. I forgot about Nolan Ryan
watching Pujols’ home run against Houston in ’06 NLCS.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 9, 2012 10:47 PM EST reply actions
hey did you see over in the Jeremy guthrie thread i posted proof of your alternating avatars?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 10, 2012 6:29 AM EST up reply actions
Those Yadi tweets by Strauss...
make me think he’s definitely leaving. “Let Albert go” and “out of my hands” are clear signals.
Sign Miguel Montero.
Sign Roy O
It's been nice knowing ya, Lil' Albert!
SIGN MONTERO!!!!!!!!
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 9, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Can someone link to the yadi comments indicating he's pissed about Albert?
Not finding them
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 9, 2012 11:03 PM EST via mobile reply actions
they were just Strauss tweets.
“I love the city. I love the fans, I love the park. But it’s out of my hands,” said Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina to Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch when asked about a new contract (Twitter links). “Whatever they like to do is how it is … They let Albert [Pujols] go. It’s business for the team, too. It’s out of my hands.” Molina can become a free agent after the season.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 9, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
If the Cardinals and Angels offered similar contracts do you think he'd stay?
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 9, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yadi should keep in mind that
He will regress faster than Albert. Pujols will still be mashing in five years. Yadier will be winding down his career.
Why the fuck should Yadi care about that?
All Yadi needs to keep in mind is that this is going to be his last big contract.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 10, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
No need to get testy
It might be his last big contract. Then again, maybe its not. If his asking price is too high, maybe he ends up on a one-year contract next year, either here or elsewhere. I hope that doesn’t happen, but its possible.
And you ask why Yadi should care. The Cards, Angels, and whoever else will certainly care, because they are footing the bill. Pujols puts butts in the seats. Molina would not.
this is pretty much a neutral comment
why is this a big deal?
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 10, 2012 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
The Padres are about to sign a $1.5 billion TV deal.
I’m pretty sure this means they are going to sign Yadi to a 10-year, $120 million contract with a $5 million personal service contract that runs for 10 years after he retires.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 9, 2012 11:52 PM EST reply actions
Aren't the Dodgers in line for something like this, as well?
Thought I saw something about it on here recently, about how all the SoCal teams are gonna be making beaucoup bux soon.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 9, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
I took high school French for a few years
tend to go with that.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 10, 2012 2:48 AM EST up reply actions
Yadi's situation doesn't have to be complicated
Mo and Dewitt sit down at a table across from Yadi and his agent. They hand him a piece of paper and a pen. They tell him to write down on that paper how much money he wants and how many years. If Yadi writes down Mauer money, everyone shakes hands and the Cards start looking for a new catcher. If he writes down anything at or below $10M or four years, DeWitt accepts and everyone goes out for beer.
I don’t want another year of Albert-like migraines.
welp...I got bad news for ya...
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 9, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
You might be right
But truthfully, how much is he really worth? I think I argued this in circles earlier today. Yadier doesn’t really have any comparable players. He’s totally worth $10M a year for 3-4 years. But paying him more starts drifting into the land of the insane.
What Yadi is going to be worth, and how much he'll get in free agency are two totally different things.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 10, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
When was the last time a team spent over $40 million on a player in free agency and looked back and said,
“Damn we got a great deal!”? It rarely happens.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 10, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
Yadi has zero reason to limit himself to 4/40. Not after last season.
The only way he signs for that little is if he regresses to his 2006 offensive production.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 10, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
You could argue he is worth more
His five year fWAR average is about 2.9. That means with no regression and a constant value for WAR, he’s worth about $13M annually. But how many catchers are making that much money today, aside from Joe Mauer? Should Yadi really be the second-highest paid catcher in the majors?
maybe...top 5, for sure.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 10, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
I'm bored, so I'm looking at highest paid catchers for 2011
Just for kicks:
Mauer = $23M
Martinez = $12M
McCann = $6.7M
Napoli = $5.8M
Martin = $4M
Suzuki = $3.4M
Barajas = $3.2M
Montero = $3.2M
There are clearly a few other young guys who WILL get bigger money (Matt Wieters, Buster Posey, Wilson Ramos) but they’ve got to get through arbitration first.
Yadi gets $5.3M at the moment. Question: Where does Yadier slot into this picture?
Quibble:
I think Martinez is less catcher and more DH, especially going forward.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 10, 2012 6:16 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I would accept that
It just demonstrates the black hole between Mauer and the rest of the catching community. (shrug)
Or between Mauer at time of signing that contract
and Mauer now.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 10, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
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