Yadier Molina's contract and the St. Louis Cardinals' special sauce
That's it: I've been blogging for going on nine years, now, but as of yesterday I am finally, permanently obsolete. Yesterday an organization seemed set to offer a baseball player a long-term contract, and the most I could offer as justification was the possibility that that very organization was doing more and better sabermetric work than the internet. From, "Man, baseball organizations are stupid," we've reached, "Well, I guess they're smart; after all, they're a baseball organization." I'm calling it: The Baseball Prospectus era is officially dead. Ken Phelps and Jeremy Brown, I've failed you.
And Yadier Molina is, reportedly, very rich. At last check the Cardinals were nearing a five-year deal with their erstwhile holdout worth, depending on who you retweeted, $60-75 million. Let's assume we can know nothing about the Cardinals' particular brand of catcher valuation and see how much special sauce we'll have to ladle over this contract to like it, assuming it exists.
Disclaimer 1: The Cardinals have either written over their last cheap Molina year or pushed their obligation to their 29-year-old catcher out to his age-34 season; at press time, such as it is, we don't know if, let alone which. Better the first than the second, in which case the right to negotiate exclusively with Molina cost them $5-8 million and allowed them to announce a five year deal without counting out six years from this April.
Disclaimer 2: What's likely led us to think the most about the possibility of a special sauce is Mike Fast's terrifying Prospectus article about pitch-framing, which will convince you once and for all that robots should call games with the suggestion that, across the last five seasons, Jose Molina was worth 60 runs per 120 games more than Ryan Doumit based on his ability to fool umpires. Yadier Molina's better than average at it, but it should be noted that the Cardinals also recently signed—on purpose—Koyie Hill, who is among the worst finishers in the study. (Along with Gerald Laird.)
Offense
This has always been my least favorite thing about the contract flap: The Cardinals have been locked in a room with Yadier Molina coming off what is by far the best offensive season of his career. Forget about defense entirely, let alone Secret Defense, and he was still worth 3.2 (baseball-reference) wins above a replacement catcher—Ryan Howard, by comparison, has been worth 3.2 wins more than a replacement hitter at first base exactly twice in his career. This year Molina and Brian McCann tied on offense, basically.
Given Yadier Molina's profile as a hitter—slappy groundball hitter who never strikes out and runs like the fittest Molina—it's hard to expect a .465 slugging percentage from him on a regular basis. If, for some reason, you do, we can stop right here; even given negative credit for his defense, Molina's WAR value topped $18.7 million last year on FanGraphs.
Last year he was a great hitter for a catcher, but even without that sudden doubles power Molina's a fine hitter for a catcher; between 2008 and 2010 he averaged 1.2 offensive wins. On offense the difference between 2010 Molina and 2011 Molina is the difference between a vintage Ozzie Smith season and a vintage Brendan Ryan season—both are useful, but Molina's offensive skills are mostly what allow him to show off his defense.
Conventional defense
Luckily, there's defense. Total Zone Rating, which for catchers measures effectiveness against baserunners and the ability to avoid errors, passed balls, and wild pitches, have Molina consistently excellent; his offensive adequacy and his skill at the things we're certain we can measure have left him an above-average catcher even at his offensive worst.
I have a hard time seeing that first defensive number fluctuating a lot, provided Molina stays in shape; his new manager was consistently above average until he was forced to retire at 35. Ivan Rodriguez has hung around above-average at 39, and his injuries and his famously varied body types over the years seem like a reasonable explanation for his fall from defensive grace as he hit 30.
Those are the two components we've been able to measure for some time, and when you put them together Molina is able to hit that $75 million if he's playing at his best in one area or the other. 2009, in which he managed a .366 on-base percentage and threw out 41% of his would-be base-stealers, seems like the gold standard for a Yadier Molina season at $15 million a year. If he does that—bWAR rates it at 2.7, FanGraphs 3.5—I'll allow myself to be special-sauce agnostic. The Cardinals wouldn't exactly be getting a deal, assuming it doesn't exist, but they'd be locking up a position that's difficult to lock up, and I won't have to think about Robert Stock for a while.
Special sauce
If you add in the two secret ingredients easily available on the internet—this is a terrible place to keep your secret ingredients, incidentally—last year's Yadier Molina model goes from 4.1 fWAR to 5.4, second best in baseball. In addition to six runs for befuddling umpires he earns six more, in this model, for blocking the plate.
Jose Molina helps me deal with these numbers in two ways. For one thing, Yadi's aren't as enormous and perspective-shattering as Jose's; for another, Jose is, at 36, still good at the one that suggests a wily veteran, and pretty bad at the one that suggests a player who isn't 36 or shaped like Jose Molina.
In any case, the possibility exists—and by the middle of his deal could be solidified by more research and more time to digest Ryan Doumit's existential awfulness—that Molina is not a stretch who could be a fair deal so much as a fair deal who could be a steal as teams place assume more variance in catcher defense.
That is the purpose of the special sauce: If Yadier Molina doesn't hit, we can convince ourselves it was a good deal anyway; if he does hit, John Mozeliak is not just a guy who convinced Molina he was serious about opening DeWallet, he's a wily genius.
Durability
Then there's this. With catchers we're left with the same elbow-half-empty discourse we get with starting pitchers. Yadier Molina's durability—he's made 130 starts each of the last three years—is a good thing, except it also means he's made 130 starts each of the last three years. Is the guy who pitches 250 innings proving he can pitch 250 innings or hinting that he will never successfully pitch 250 innings again?
This FanGraphs article from last week—"The most common number thrown around is $10MM per season over three or four years, which certainly seems reasonable..."—suggests that catchers who've proven they can catch every day don't lose playing time much differently than the population at large, which is heartening. Meanwhile, Molina's five-year not-quite-PECOTA projections at Clay Davenport's website are remarkably stable—EQAs between .267 and .274—except that he also loses 35 to 40 plate appearances a season.
Subjectively—and what else do I get, for the trouble of watching too many Cardinals games?—Molina feels durable. He looks athletic (this was not always true) but not strenuously athletic (this was always true.) He doesn't limp everywhere or take terrifying chances like Albert Pujols; he just jogs around and tries to get the ball over Brandon Phillips's head.
Objectively, at 29 he's a little younger than the average player hitting free agency, and he hasn't broken down yet. Which is good news, and most of the news we have.
$75 million?
There aren't a lot of players like Yadier Molina out there, which might be its own reason to believe he's good for such a unique contract. Of the six catchers Ken Rosenthal lists who've gotten $10 million deals—Rodriguez, Joe Mauer, Mike Piazza, Jason Kendal, Jorge Posada, and Jason Varitek—only Rodriguez was valued primarily for his defense, and he carried 10 all-star games and a few seasons with an OPS+ well over 120 into that first eight-figure year.
There've been catchers before who were valued for what we couldn't measure—Mike Matheny was one of them—but what's made Molina the test-case for a big money deal isn't just timing. What's important, what makes him different, is that he has the ideal base of skills on which to speculate about those not-quite-tangibles—he's young, he's competent with the bat, he's healthy, and he's great at the things we're already trained to watch him do.
If you were going to sign somebody for the things you think he might be doing, you couldn't ask for a better set of things you know he's doing than Yadier Molina's.
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I would of been happier with 4/60,
But it might end up looking something like that with an option year or two on the end. Maybe the team gave him a little higher AAV in exchange for a guaranteed year or two. There could be a vesting option or some kind of club/mutual option. I’m hoping for 4/60 that could become a 5/70 or a 6/75.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 10:39 AM EST via mobile reply actions
YADI! YADI! YADI!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Feb 28, 2012 10:39 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
As long as there's no NTC involved, I'm happy with 5/$70-$75M.
Otherwise, the price should go down.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 10:40 AM EST reply actions
I don't really care about the NTC. He'll have vet rights anyway, right?
But if options are involved, things could look markedly better. We’ll see!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Yeah, if I understand it correctly, he'll gain those rights in two years regardless of the contract.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
hell, we're not trading that contract.
the whole thing is a moot point.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
your face is moot
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Feb 28, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
fang is moot
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I dunno
how much shrooms has he done?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
i officially cannot make a comment on this board without getting mocked in some way.
cue the secondary screen name.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
asshole.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
that was payback for calling me "old balls" yesterday
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
fair.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
The contract is fine...
it’s just that we wouldn’t trade him a year or two into it.
Have you been paying attention to what has happened recently with baseball contracts?
Sign Roy O
Minus whatever time he spent back in the minors.
But I don’t think he was ever optioned back down after the initial call up, so disregard that.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 28, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Oops, yeah. Always forget about those pesky 10/5 points.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
the level of happiness this quote gives me is almost impossible to quantify
Forget about defense entirely, let alone Secret Defense, and he was still worth 3.2 (baseball-reference) wins above a replacement catcher—Ryan Howard, by comparison, has been worth 3.2 wins more than a replacement hitter at first base exactly twice in his career.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
The contract is higher than I thought the Cards would give a catcher
But Molina’s composite worth (as demonstrated in this article) justifies much of that expense as long as he stays relatively healthy. His older brothers had their best years in their early thirties, so hopefully Yadi follows suit.
What I like best about this contract is that it virtually assures us that Yadi is a Cardinal for life.
www.stlcardinalbaseball.com
5/60 is a good deal. 5/75 is overkill.
i don’t want to see another lohse contract, and i’m afraid that’s what 5/75 would bring with yadi. granted he’s a great catcher, but i’d just hope that the $ signs wouldn’t get to yadi’s head, regardless of if he stayed a cardinal or not. we have already seen somebody who saw $ signs this offseason. no telling what that would do either, but i’d be inclined to believe that albert will feel a lot of pressure getting $24M AND playing in a new city. i’d also think that yadi would feel a little more pressure on his shoulders if he went for 15M instead of 12.
That does $15M more mean to you or me?
The team isn’t going to miss out on something because they gave Yadi $75M and not $60M. The problem with the Lohse contract wasn’t the money, it was the years.
#givelancechants
A few million a year IS relevant. Look at what just went down with Oswalt.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Feb 28, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
You mean, none of Oswalt's limited selection of teams were willing to pay him what he wanted to be paid?
Well, that too.
We (reportedly) offered 5.5M. If Mo had 3M more in his budget, it certainly doesn’t guarantee we would have offered him 8.5, but it wouldn’t have hurt!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
God damn you Kyre McRerran!
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
If we actually needed Oswalt, we would have him already
It’s not that they can’t pay out 8 million or 10 million, or whatever it would take. They just don’t want to, because it’s not a big upgrade.
wrong
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I know we don't need him
But only 90% certain we’d get him if we did. He certainly hasn’t signed with anyone else.
Mozeliak always saves money to fill needs that arise through spring training and the season, so it’s hardly a stretch to think that they have more money available than the 5mil he offered.
So, $5mil is likely what he can offer without dipping into that reserve, but if we actually needed another starter (which really won’t happen, due to a system full of good arms), the money would be there.
I'd rather complain about the millions we wast on replacement level players
than the few million a year we overpay to potential iconic players.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 28, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Oh, I agree 100%
I just disagreed with the sentiment that the difference between 60 and 75M wouldn’t cause us to miss out on anything else.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Also, it cuts both ways
There would be less money to spend on contract extensions for Lohse-type players.
#givelancechants
Oh yeah
Totally going to not sign Wainwright because the team gave Yadi $4 more a season.
#givelancechants
yanevahknow.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Considering one starter in 2013 will be making league min, I think we'll be okay.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Westbrook's option isn't for the league minimum, is it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 28, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the buyout.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The most pointless kind of option!
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Uh, it'd make it easier.
We do have an actual budget, you know. I’m not saying in the least that we shouldn’t spend this money to keep Yadi, but pretending that 3-4M per year is totally irrelevant to other decisions we might make seems naive.
I bet Adam wants to be here, but I also would have bet Albert did. If he goes to FA, 3-4M/year is quite significant.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
(and I'm not implying that we won't be able to extend Adam, either. I think we will.)
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
yeah, I agree, WW's extension isn't the issue.
the issue is that the club should try to maximize value. Yadi + WW could affect other moves. That’s what I was trying to say. Overpays have impact as much as bargains.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
You think the team doesn't already have numbers ready for Wainwright?
They aren’t going to look at the ledger and think, “I’ve made a huge mistake.” I think they have an idea of what Wainwright is going to cost and are already planning for it.
#givelancechants
Well, no. But only because we need to seem him healthy.
Like I said, I think we’ll extend him. It’s real money, and we DO have a budget. That’s all I’m saying.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
how does that not apply to Pujols as well?
if Wainwright says in negotiations, “ok I like that deal, but give me an extra 2 million a year” that’s going to be hard to do if we’re already at budget.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
This
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 28, 2012 1:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I don't know if that's fair
Lohse essentially got a big contract off of one good year. Yadi’s been great defensively his whole career, and he’s been steadily improving offensively.
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
i still believe Kyle Lohse would have performed very close, if not up to, the value of his contract without that injury.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
by tehzachatak on Feb 28, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
bad sentence, but you get my drift
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
by tehzachatak on Feb 28, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
projections for his contract
had it at a 10-20 million dollar overpay.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_2009_pre_season/#3
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
point taken
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
by tehzachatak on Feb 28, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
why is this a helpful comment? injuries are exactly
Why you shouldn’t give out big, long contracts. Pitchers get injured.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 28, 2012 12:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
why is this a helpful comment?
why is this a helpful comment? injuries are exactly
Why you shouldn’t give out big, long contracts. Catchers get injured.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
heh :-) paste fail.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
well, it's not a helpful comment
it’s merely an observation.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
well, i guess people have already given you enough to discuss regarding whether it was a correct observation.
to me, the comment that a four-year pitcher contract would’ve been fine if not for the injuries is sort of like saying a levee made of straw would’ve been fine if not for all the rain.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
it's funny because he's still going to perform very close, if not up to, that value of his contract with that injury.
I don't think Lohse will give the Cards that much value.
He’s been worth $17.3MM from 2009 through 2011 by Fangraphs’ valuation. Lohse’s contract is worth $40.1MM. This means he’ll have to be worth $22.8MM in 2012 to equal his salary. His 2.5-fWAR 2011 was worth $11.1MM. I don’t think it’s likely Lohse’s value will come within $10MM of his salary over the term of the contract.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You'd have to add in his first year, 2008, on his 1-yr deal
for him to get close to perform to his contract value, across his time with the Cardinals (assuming he performs well this year too).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
But that was a separate, one-year deal so I don’t see any reason to do that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
This
And ponder this: Lohse has made almost three times the amount of money that Yadi has to this point for that one good year. Hard to imagine. Or stomach.
www.stlcardinalbaseball.com
by Ray DeRousse on Feb 28, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
true...
but given that yadi had a career year last year and is now entering the final year of his current deal, this year could be an interesting one. i wonder how much pressure he’s going to feel. it affected albert, especially at the beginning of the season last go-round, so you’d think it’s going to be on yadi’s mind too.
by zoomzoomj88 on Feb 28, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
how do you know it affected Albert?
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
by tehzachatak on Feb 28, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
(i don't think it did, in the slightest)
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
by tehzachatak on Feb 28, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I'm confused.
Are you saying that Pujols was affected by being in a contract year? If so, wouldn’t getting Molina extended before he enters his contract year be a good thing?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yes.
it seemed like albert was pressing early last year, and i’m sure that the contract sitch was somewhere in his mind. without a doubt, getting yadi extended would be a big relief, on the org and yadi himself.
by zoomzoomj88 on Feb 28, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Until we know more about cathchers defensive value, I don't know if it's fair to say last year was a career year for him.
Certainly it was with the bat, but based solely on what I saw, I thought his defense was way down.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I agree on your assessment of Molina's defense seemingly being worse last season.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
but, but, but
He won a PLATINUM GLOVE!!!!!
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Feb 28, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
His CS% was very low
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Once Yadi is signed...
then what moves will the Cardinals have to make next offseason? Other than the Berkman Decision of 2013, the Cards seem to be pretty much set going into this season and next, especially if 2B plays out accordingly.
The talent coming up through the minors will provide your bench/depth (Craig as Berkman’s replacement if he retires). The pitching staff is mostly intact, depending on how the organization wants to fill gaps left by Lohse and Westbrook (my choice would be to move Shelby Miller and Lance Lynn into the rotation), and then use Swaggerty/Kelly/Cleto/Reifer into the pen.
So, just a warning, be prepared for a slow offseason in 2013.
If Wainwright is healthy and good, I bet we'll start working hard on an extension next offseason.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Agreed.
If Molina is extended and Wainwright proves himself healthy after surgery, the 2012-2013 Hot Stove will have a Wainwright extension as its focus.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
ADAMAGEDDON
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 28, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if you've applied for a patent on that VEB's going to have to go with #wainwrocalypse
I’ve got no budget for licensing fees.
by DanUpBaby on Feb 28, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wainwragnarok.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Until then, we're
Waining for Adamot.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Extend Wainwright.
Extend Allen Craig.
Extend Shelby Miller.
Extend Jason Motte.
Extend Fernando Salas.
Extend Lance Lynn.
Extend Scrabble.
We should not extend Motte or Salas.
We should only consider extending Lynn and Rzep, if they show themselves to be decent starting pitchers. In my opinion, there is no reason not to go year to year with relievers.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
agreed.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Extend Wong
/obligatory dick joke
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
by peppermartin on Feb 28, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Jimmy Johnson could help with this.
Sign Bubbie Buzachero!
by cardinalswsbound on Feb 28, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
What ever happened
to nineties Cardinals prospect John Thomas?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Sanchez
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
sign Miller long-term for a sub-Longoria deal.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think we have to wait for Montero's contract...
to figure out if Molina’s deal is any good or not. There just aren’t very many useful comps.
Sign Roy O
I don't care how much sauce you put on it, 5/75 is an overpay.
But a teeming full of apocalypse type of mistake? No, not at all, and the devil’s in the details we can only guess at right now. I’d hoped for better while making myself comfortable with the idea of no Yadi next year.
The real reason i think a lot of folks around here aren’t tearing their hair out is because we don’t have any internal options, and could very well end up in an overpay situation next off season with someone we don’t know as well. Also, I think, unfortunately, some of this overpay could be to ameliorate the loss of Pujols.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
well, he is a hottie.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Why is it an overpay?
Is there a similar catcher who has signed for less? Is Molina not a 3-4 win player?
Sign Roy O
He is right now.
But I’m not sure it’s reasonable to expect 3-4 wins on average through the life of the deal. This would have been a great contract about 2 years ago, now, I’m not as confident.
Two years ago, I don't think this deal makes any sense given that Yadi's offense only took a step forward last year.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
and the question is, given what we know of yadi,
how many of us think he will replicate that career year offense at the plate? i’m not saying this contract would be a disaster, nor, given our options, an awfully bad decision for the team (we can’t know that yet) but it would be an overpay.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
But if his value...
lies in pitch framing, controlling the running game, and handling the pitching staff, won’t he age pretty well?
Sign Roy O
that's the sauce.
I think you can by into to a degree, but i’m not sure i’d pay 4-5 mil over for it. It’s not like Yadi’s the only catcher in the bigs who can call a game.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
But the new analysis is showing his sauce is worth a win = 4-5 mil
And that’s for possibly a bad sauce year.
I he can still catch for 135+ games per season
and assuming he doesn’t lose some degree of overall quickness in throwing to bases, I suppose, but those seem to be pretty big assumptions for a catcher who will be 34-35 years old.
By then....
Molina, hopefully, will be catching for the likes of Shelby Miller, Trevor Rosenthal, and Carlos Martinez. In which case, we probably won’t mind vastly overpaying for one year.
If we're paying at or above market anyway
why are we signing him right after his career year? I just don’t see anything that he could do this year to raise his value above $75M, so what’s the risk of waiting?
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:11 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
unless we’re getting a discount, there’s no reason to give an early extension.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
and that goes for basically any contract
we should be considering it with Waino as well.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
provided this isn't starting in 2099 like ryan howard's contract
there might be some psychological benefit to being able to offer a player who wants a five-year contract a five-year contract that’s really a four-year contract with a raise.
by DanUpBaby on Feb 28, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
"2099: A Ryan Howard Fatyssey"
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
I suppose that's a fair point
Assuming irrationality in player motivations renders the rationalization of contract negotiations tough.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
The 2099 A.D. version of Ryan Howard was pretty weird looking
I think he only had four fingers on each hand and weird back hair. Still had green skin though.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Feb 28, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I mean we should be considering giving Waino an early extension
because he’s much more likely to raise his value next year.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
given our medical staff's spotty history (or perception thereof)
I’d like to seem him pitch for at least a few months before getting out the checkbook. If that’s what you mean by “early” then I agree.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
yes, i mean after you verify that he's more or less the same pitcher
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
He's under contract for 2012 and 2013...
So the team will have the 2012 season for evaluation and still be early in extending him.
I think there's significant
value in starting a 5 year contract now as opposed to next year.
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Feb 28, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
the FO is scared to death of bad PR after the pujols debacle.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
that's what I'm reading into this as well.
It has to have some influence.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
they're scared of bad PR and they're scared of letting him to free agency.
and that’s okay, this one time. it might be a tricky situation, given how close yadi and pujols are/were. but this should be an exception, not a rule.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
it's hard to beat the PR of winning
and I’m not sure that most people blame the FO; Pujols seems to get the brunt of it.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I might, but only because it's a fun word to use
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
i really do just like to use that word
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
"debacle" is a strong term
but there could be some paranoia that the team is seen as not being up to spending money to keep a star who has been a cornerstone of the roster for years now. A ton of a team’s marketing is tied up in it’s players, especially ones the fans have grown to love.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I prefer "carbuncle."
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
maybe PR isn't the best term.
but they are definitely scared of something. it seems they felt that if the extension didn’t get nailed down right now, there wasn’t going to be a deal at all. that’s the only thing i can think of to explain the overpay and the urgency.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
yea, I think they might be scared of a hometown premium if they wait
but I don’t think it’s a public perception thing.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
it's marketing, for one
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
They're scared of more Jeff Gordon blog posts.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 28, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I logged in on mobile to rec this
but apparently I must do it the old fashioned way.
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Feb 28, 2012 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
People did seem to get awfully negative about Molina the past in in the local media
Specifically after he said he wouldn’t negotiate during the season. I’m not quite sure why that would prompt the Cardinals to suddenly amp up negotiations, but perhaps they really didn’t want the team to deal with the distraction during the year.
I didn't understand the negative reaction to Molina stating he wouldn't negotiate during the season.
I imagine it’s distracting on some level. Also, his agents know he is at his maximum value and that negotiations typically move forward most rapidly with a clear deadline in place. So, they created a deadline of sorts. I think it was wise on their part and not at all worthy of a negative reaction.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
There was a "hear we go again" vibe to it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
maybe that accounts for some of the urgency, as well.
the absence of pujols will already be a big story. the team doesn’t need a bunch of season-long speculation about whether yadi will go the same way. and since he said he wouldn’t negotiate in-season – it makes sense.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I appreciated the honesty
No BS…he saw how people jumped all over Albert and his wife, and he didn’t want any part of that
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 29, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think it was just a flashback to the pujols talk this time last year
if that hadn’t happened, nobody would have been bothered by it.
To me it was because he clearly said he was fine negotiating during the season
Then Roman showed up and said, Yadi will not negotiate during the season. It seemed quite clearly to be a negotiating ploy which the Cards bought in to.
Think the front office snagged a real break when the APU camp came off badly as well.
Probably worse than the organization as a whole.
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Unless you want to risk losing him
If you wait for the end of the season, you have a finite period of time to resign the player before he gets to free agency and starts fielding other offers. That’s also a big gamble. Obviously, the Cardinals do not want to play that game (again) and are willing to stake what they believe the market price will be for Molina.
With the Pujols extension offers, the Cardinals obviously had a set amount of money put aside for Pujols and were willing to work within those parameters. With Molina’s case, I believe they are doing the same, and by resigning Molina—considered to be a vital part of the current make-up of the roster by management—to a extention now, they are locking in a productive star player to a contract that they can work with (unlike Pujols’ demands).
Going for a bargain every time out is not always the best policy. This is still a business, and if players perceive that an organization will always try to plead poverty with its key free agents, St. Louis will develop the wrong kind of reputation, which will in turn affect how their negotiations go in the future. Since DeWitt took of the Cardinals, he has shown that he is willing to resign certain players to market-level deals—Edmonds, Rolan, Carpenter, Holliday, even Pujols’ first long-term contract, which was the largest contract of its kind at the time. Molina obviously is in that company. Sometimes those contracts work out; sometimes they don’t. Five years, though, at Molina’s age isn’t as high a risk, even if doesn’t start until 2013. It’s not a roster-crippling contract, and the amount of years in which Molina realistically has a chance to fulfill the contract’s annual value would appear to outnumber the ones it gets it bit shaky.
by Forsch31 on Feb 28, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Good analysis. In the end, who is/was more essential to the team? Albert? Yadi?
I could argue either way. . . . I suppose in the end Albert sold more tickets, yet Yadi’s influence on the staff is hard to quantaify
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
We would then have to bid against other teams
I don’t want to lose him over a couple million a year.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 11:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's what market value means
Do we really think someone else out there is going to go over 75?
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
not now.
But we didn’t think anyone would go 10 years 250 for that 1B guy.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 11:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not sure that's true
at the end of the 2010 season, I don’t think too many would’ve thought 10/250 to be that unreasonable.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
and I don’t think we could’ve gotten him much below that contract at the end of 2010
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
At this time year
We offered Pujols 9/200.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 11:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
and he wanted 10/300
I don’t think that tells us much about 10/250
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. To me, the obvious lesson from the Albert situation was NOT to sign him early.
Albert, by all accounts, wanted an “Arod deal – 10yr/275MM” after his great year in 2010. After his “down year” in 2011, he got a white knight to come in 10/$240MM – an almost 15% discount!
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
also he would
Feel less RESPECTED if we wait until after the season.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 11:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because if he hits the free market he is gone.
I am convinced some team with deep pockets will make an offer so high that it is relative to nothing. They will offer him $30 million to play when he is 41.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
I think it would be pretty hard to keep him if he hits free agency.
Napoli, McCann, and Montero are all going to be free agents. The price tag for catchers is about to go way up.
If Molina enters that group, could he get more than $75M?
by Cheeseballs on Feb 28, 2012 12:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It seems a free agent superstar is always more valuable to the new team signing him.
I am not talking about on field production, but in getting new fans out, ticket sales, publicity etc. If the Cards had signed Albert, attendance would not have gone up because of that. I would expect that the number of Angel fans will increase next year. Maybe the Angels got their new TV contract because they said we are going to sign Albert.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Just means Texas, Atlanta and Arizona need a catcher
Along with a bunch of other teams.
Not afraid to nitpick
right but they may have internal replacement options or salary restrictions or something
if yadi was the only good catcher hitting FA you would think he gets more money than if there are 4 of them
That there are 4 entering free agency together isn't as important
as where Yadi ranks among those four. If he is the worst of the 4, then his price goes down. If he is the best, now there are 4 teams wanting to sign him. Odds are that one of them will overpay for his services.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
step 1 find out who will be punching yadi
step 2 beat them to the punch
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
I think it's a Pujols thing
plus the possible competition from NYY/LAA/PHI etc. if he hits free agency. But yeah, I’d have waited.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
this was what i was saying yesterday
if we were willing to go this high we should have waited it out until free agency to see if he could be had for less. worst case scenario someone gives him 6/90 or something, but we would still have a chance at one of the other three catchers
the problem is
that the worst case scenario likely involves the line
“starting catcher, tony cruz”
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 28, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if...
part of Yadi’s high value might be to keep the Dave Duncan’s brain trust strong and in Saint Louis.
ChrisCarpenter/YadierMolina/Waino/MikeMatheny = Future/DaveDuncan
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
Boy am I glad that the Cubs are spending so much time on a bunting competition.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 11:24 AM EST reply actions
yeah, how fucking ridiculous is that?
And their dipshit fans are eating it up.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
I'm going to repost this here since Dan's new post mentions "secret sauce defense" - it was in response to azru's post in the other thread noting a lot of apparent apprehension about Yadi's reported deal.
There seems to be a lot of apprehension about the (potential) deal.
I read this thread and don’t sense a lot of apprehension (compare this to the news of the Holliday extension – that was a lot of apprehension). It seems the prevailing view is that the deal is slightly more than hoped, but that we don’t have a good internal option to take over for Yadi and that "catcher defense and intangibles" aren’t being properly valued by the market and so this may be better deal than one might think at first glance.
Two points: if lack of an internal, suitable option is a valid way to judge contracts, why aren’t we always doing this with FA contracts or long-term extensions? I never hear about a team’s lack of internal options when discussing whether a team has overpaid the going rate for FA value (indeed the underlying foundation of much of this market analysis is that WAR is available, and both linear and transferable across positions).
Second, there seems to be a prevalent view that "catcher defense and intangibles" add extra value to Molina that only the Cards or other saber-teams know. I am dubious about this. First, if other teams don’t value it, it’s questionable whether it’s reflected in the market or wheher we should pay for it. To the point that it only takes one other team to value it for us to lose Yadi, I fail to see why we should bid against that "mystery" team now, and raise our offer accordingly.
More specifically, I don’t see any real discussion of what we do know about "catcher defense and intangibles." Some recent articles shed some (good) light on these issues:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16096
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16006
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/11/1/2497088/2011-beyond-the-box-score-catcher-defense-rankings
Notably, Yadi is a good but not elite catcher under these methodologies. If anything, these methodologies say that it is easier to find underrated defensive catchers on the market, not harder, and would not justify "over-paying" for Molina.
In any event, I am not especially concerned about "catcher-aging" for Molina, and I am optimistic that he can maintain quite a bit of his power gains this past year going forward. But I don’t think it’s obvious that this deal is a good one because of our lack of catcher prospects or Yadi’s defense.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:25 AM EST reply actions
one rebuttal (although I'm not that rosy about the numbers being thrown around)
It’s not just a lack of internal options, it’s a lack of internal and external options. Maybe we don’t always talk about that, but we definitely should, especially on a team that is pretty much set everywhere else next year, leaving fewer options for upgrades.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I haven't noticed a lack of external options. Plenty of options may be there - Montero, Russell Martin, hell, even Chris Snyder (etc., etc.).
If anything, IMO, the analysis of catcher defense shows that there are more options out there.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I'm referring more to the framing of yesterday's discussion
It started with this from azru:
2) how few alternatives there are to Yadier Molina internally or externally
There may be good reason to argue about the availability of external options. I am in no way qualified to discuss that side of things. Frankly, I don’t pay any attention to teams other than the Cardinals so I end up pretty worthless when prospecting other players.
All I’m saying is that for a team that is mostly in place, it’s worth thinking explicitly about alternative signings, as opposed to living solely in the spherical, frictionless vacuum of WAR.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
That's willies argument though
assuming the catcher framing metrics are on base, that means we should be able to find undervalued catchers. Yadi is overvalued because his reputation is higher than his actually numbers (in terms of framing and stuff).
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Do you think...
that Yadi’s framing value goes down when working with a pitcher like Carpenter who hits his spot anyway? I would think that a catcher who catches a pitcher that doesn’t always throw the ball where intended would be scoring a higher value than one who doesn’t necessarily need to frame a pitch.
never before has someone waited so long to throw so many pitches that miss so badly.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Pitchers have way less command than you're giving them credit

That’s the zone plot for Carpenter’s gem against the Phillies in the NLDS.
Not afraid to nitpick
Remember, a "swinging strike"
could be “tried to hold up, called strike on appeal to third base ump”
Cards fan in Middle East
and I definitely agree about the catcher defense element
It seems that Yadi is elite at the defensive elements that everyone thinks about, and ok at these new metrics. If anything, that decreases his value relative to other catchers.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
I guess that's my main point.
The best (public) information about “catcher secret sauce” appears to show that Molina is worse at these things than we think he is.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
indeed
And we’ll clearly be signing someone to play catcher, so unless we think the overall valuation of the position will change dramatically in the next year, we get the generic “catchers are more valuable than we think” bump regardless.
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Worse than speculation, but better than valuation
Since the valuation of all these things is 0, and Yadi’s positive at basically everything. He’s not the most super-amazing catcher imaginable, but that really doesn’t matter. Based on that analysis, he’s still worth more than what we’re paying him.
Given that he’s also a key piece/apprentice in the Duncan system, it’s likely that replacing him for a marginal improvement doesn’t really seem like a good idea.
I haven't read all of those articles...
But I wouldn’t take them at face value. There’s several issues with the methologies in the ones I did read. (When I get home from work, I’ll read them more closely and provide detail)
You should do a Fanpost on the articles.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'd like to hear how you have a better system than those
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Comprehension fail.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm late to this
and I agree with almost all of what you wrote. I don’t think there’s a case that Yadier Molina @ 5/75 is the best deal the team could have gotten for a catcher over the next 1-2 years or whatever.
I just think that the team is very comfortable with him as a catcher and what he brings to the table. Beyond that, I think there is a statistical justification for the $$ & years they gave him. My opinion is that they decided to give a little more than perhaps they otherwise would have because (1) he actually is that valuable even if the contract doesn’t provide surplus value and (2) all of the fuzzy unquantifiable intangible stuff that teams incorporate into their decisions.
I didn’t mean to portray this as a pure sabermetric move in any way or the best capitalization of a market inefficiency. I, personally, think that the FA market scares the shit out of me right now. Teams are throwing money at really bad players almost because they don’t know what else to do with it. It’s a weird dynamic.
Anywho, I don’t hate the deal but I’m not ecstatic about it.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Yes, and to the degree this
deal might “hamstring us” in coming years, it’s not close to the kind of hamstringing we’d have if we game $200M+ to AP. In the grand scheme of things this isn’t something to lose sleep over.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 29, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
this.
barring injury, of course. my biggest worry isn’t the years, it’s the mileage.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 29, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
I get what you are saying
and I agree. But, I think ‘hamstring us’ is still too strong of a phrase. The Cards only have Jaime and Holliday under contract after the 2013 season. There will still be plenty of the DeWallet to go around for everyone.
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 29, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Can't it also be said that...
Yadi himself adds some value based on his interactions with pitchers. My understanding is that pitchers rave about him, that he has impressive preparation, and that he has helped quite a bit in the development of some of our pitchers.
If that is the case (I am assuming it is, though I must say I can’t be certain), doesn’t he add tremendous value considering that we have the prospect of by 2014 or 2015 having Wainwright headlining a rotation with 4 other farm system arms? Doesn’t the mere presence of Yadi, and the way he goes about his job, and his track record with pitchers, give us a bit more hope in that prospect becoming a reality? I know betting on starting pitching prospects is a poorer investment then blackjack in Vegas, but never the less, with Yadi behind the plate, doesn’t that make that investment look a little bit better? If that is the case, the money that we save from having 3 or 4 guys in the rotation making somewhere around league minimum more than makes up for a couple extra million tossed to Yadi over the life of this contract right?
I think this is a good point
There’s some serious pitching prospect development that will be going on the next several years. With Duncan probably not being around, Yadi could be an essential part of this.
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Feb 28, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
This is a nice thought. You might read the articles I linked to above...
which are methodologies to assess and value this. Yadi’s best defensive attributes (historically) are controlling the running game and blocking balls in the dirt. According to the methodolgies above, Yadi is average (and maybe below average) in the areas you reference.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I see positives by Yadi's name, not negatives
Every study ranks him positive in every category that they look at. How are you getting below average from that?
Thank you, I was hoping somebody would post this
It seems that a lot of his value regarding handling our staff (and an upcoming younger staff) and calling a game has gotten glossed over in these discussions.
it's being glossed over because we don't actually know that he's better at it than his peers (or how much better)
It’s not like Yadi has a long track record of mentoring young pitchers into stars
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
What if....
It seems that a lot of his value regarding handling our staff (and an upcoming younger staff) and calling a game has gotten glossed over in these discussions.
What if we’re overestimating Molina’s value in doing this and he’s actually not very good at it.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
There's no way to know
The “Duncan Effect” is measurable though, and game-calling would be a part of that. I think it’s impossible to separate it from the rest, though.
Even if this were true,
it’s not like the team could go back and add additional WAR to the value that Molina already produced: WAR is a counting stat and it is accounted for somewhere in the performance of players. Assuming Yadi is improving pitcher performance, that would be clear in pitcher stats and we would already be paying for it in the salary paid to those pitchers.
That does mean that Yadi is getting paid less than he is worth, however it does not mean that Yadi would get that money from anyone else.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
But this also means that we LOSE that WAR (that we've incorrectly attributed to the pitchers, and presumably paid them as such)
if Yadi walks. It’s still a fair reason, perhaps, to increase his perceived value.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Are we already paying for it?
Have other pitchers gotten a bigger payday because of Yadi, I have no idea, the point I was making is that we could feasibly (not assured by any means) have 3 or 4 starting pitchers in the next few years making league minimum, which is a radical turn from where we sit right now. If they are making league minimum, obviously the team is saving big bucks, and paying Yadi a couple extra million to convince him to stay and help groom those pitchers might in fact be worth it.
I am not proving anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, because quite honestly, I don’t think it can be, I am just asking the question that with a younger staff, the couple extra million a year might not be such a big deal if it can lock Yadi up for awhile
I can no longer reply to comments via app.
Dammit.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 11:41 AM EST via Android app reply actions
Reinstall fixed it.
Such a wonky app.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 11:50 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
And yet, still better than the mobile web site.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Not when I can't comment.
I had to use them both.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 12:00 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yadi, Yadi, Yadi. Blah, blah, blah
The real news today is Wainwright v Beltran: The rematch
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 11:44 AM EST reply actions
he's not throwing the nastiest curveball he's ever thrown.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
or he is
and then he’s tipping his cap
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If Yadi is catching then I'm upset that he didn't excitedly run out to the mound after the third pitch
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 28, 2012 1:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Its Anderson
You see the name on his back when he stands up at the end of the video
did he strike out holliday next or did lego hit the one he swung at ... having technical difficulties
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 28, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
holliday took k-mac deep on mon., iirc, though "bad pitcher gives up home run" is sort of a "dog bites man" story.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
thanks
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 29, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
I pray it starts in 2012.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Because I don't particularly want a catcher on what amounts to a seven-year deal.
I hope they bought out his 2012 season and gave him a mild pay raise. I think this gives the Cardinals the best chance of seeing production on a level with Molina’s salary.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'd imagine that's what the confusion was
5 year extension that pays him 75M total, including the year he was already under contract.
Not afraid to nitpick
That's the thing about these initial leaks and reports.
With extensions (and sometimes option years), the value can seem way off when the details are official.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Although for MLB accounting purposes (and presumably public statements on overall payroll)
Deferrals are added back into the current year
Meh
For luxury tax purposes, yeah—-for PR purposes where it makes it sound like they’re paying more, yeah.
For their actual internal accounting? There is a 0% chance they use deferred money added back to the current year.
Not afraid to nitpick
Well obviously for their own internal accounting, we have no idea what they do
But if that is for internal purposes only, then it really isn’t relevant for purposes of payroll discussions.
I don't really care how they account for it deferred/backloaded money is cheaper
and lowers the total value of the contract
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Just keep in mind that when Mo/Dewitt say payroll will be x amount
that x amount almost certainly has the deferrals included.
does it have the deferrals, or the NPV of the deferrals?
by brackenthebox on Feb 28, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
I bet it's the full deferral
And why not? The STLToday’ers screaming to OPEN DEWALLET aren’t gonna know what the hell NPV is anyway.
Not afraid to nitpick
If it starts...
in 2012, we have him for 6/75 through his age 34 season. If 2013, 7/82 through his age 35 season.
Basically, you don’t want that age 35 season for $7M in 2012 dollars paid in 2012. I could see that, but I don’t think it’s a big deal.
Sign Roy O
I'm just going on BR's method...
whatever age the guy is on July 1 is his “age” for the season.
Sign Roy O
I'm just saying, in his case anyway, that
even though it’s just barely technically his age 34 season, he’s still going to be 35 for half the year.
interesting.
if that starts this year, I really like it.
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Feb 28, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
i'd really like it if it starts this year
and year six is an option.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Feb 28, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
well i could live with that.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Literally nobody is reporting this.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 28, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
haha im reading through this thread just now after the fact, i was waiting for someone to make this comment
people always believe any report, if its legit the legit people will report it
Who on 590?
Do they employ anyone with any credibility? (I honestly don’t know.)
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
So what does everyone think about 3/16.5M for Sean Marshall?
It’s kind of funny Brandon Lyon and Marshall got the same contract considering how much better Marshall is…
Sign Roy O
I think it's foolish to give relievers multi-year deals.
I think this is a bad signing.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think its a good signing
Marshall is very good and there’s a fair argument that he’s a ~2 WAR SP, which would be a bargain at those rates anyhow.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
What is this argument about him being a 2.0-WAR SP?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He was about an average starter in 2007
the last year he had a reasonably full workload in that role. Whilst it’s clear he’s better in relief, I think there’s an argument his true talent level has increased (and not SOLELY due to moving to the pen) in the last three years. He doesn’t have a big platoon split and was a starter in the minors. He’s in his peak years and is a settled major leaguer.
I think he could very well be a 2+ WAR guy in the rotation.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 29, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed...
Marshall is an elite, top-5 in baseball reliever. I’m not sure the usual concerns about relievers apply to guys like this…
Sign Roy O
Ahem
Top 5 relievers in baseball, 2009 (By WAR):
Johnathan Broxton: 2.8
Matt Thornton: 2.5
Michael Weurtz: 2.4
Andrew Bailey: 2.4
Brian Wilson: 2.3
Top 5 relievers in baseball, 2011 (by WAR):
Craig Kimbrel: 3.2
Jonathan Papelbon: 3.0
Sean Marshall: 2.8
David Robertson: 2.8
Mariano Rivera: 2.4
Quite the turnover in just a couple of years. There isn’t a single guy on the 2009 list that was among the TOP 25 relievers in baseball in 2011. Hell, only Papelbon, Soria, and Mo Rivera appear in the top 15 in both years. This is not the case for hitters or starting pitchers.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
yup
but 3/16 is pretty cheap.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Is it?
That’s $5.33M AAV. I’d rather spend that on Orlando Hudson than I would on Sean Marshall. Especially when I don’t NEED to spend it on Sean Marshall.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I don't think relievers are completely unpredictable
I mean Marshall definitely projects higher than the average starter-converted-to-reliever. There are definitely better bargains to be had, but this isn’t really an overpay on a dollar per WAR basis.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
I never said they were completely unpredictable
But they do tend to have wildly fluctuating values from year to year. Now, if they were buying out Marshall instead of going year to year arb, this might make some sense (although if he’s not closing that doesn’t make much sense either). But they’re just locking up for 3 years BEYOND THIS SEASON when it’s nearly impossible to predict whether he’ll be worth much of anything in those seasons.
Look at the market for relievers the last couple of years: It’s relatively easy to pick up an above average reliever on a one year deal for less than what Marshall will be getting paid.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Not sure I agree.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 29, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
We shredded his arm last spring and was replaced by Melancon...
who was sent to the Red Sox for Lowrie and Weiland.
Sign Roy O
Hey you guys. We do not have the worst broadcasters!
Check out this article on fangraphs. I would love to see more of the comments people left.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Can't believe the Reds guys aren't near the bottom.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Well to be fair
They’re not whiny little bitches
/s
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 28, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think Dan saved that
If it was a full season of Rick and Al, Saint Louis would be baseball hell….at least on TV
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 28, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I actually prefer Rooney over Shannon
Shannon’s fine when he’s paying attention to the game, but he seems to wander off way too much. Then again, I only listen to the radio broadcast when I don’t have a TV in front of me, so this might not be a problem for others who listen to the radio while also watching the video feed.
Shannon makes the best calls of exciting happenings.
Get up, baby!
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
A LONG FLY BALL DEEP TO LEFT FIELD
….and its foul.
goddammit, Shannon!
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Have posted versions of this memory before. When Harry Caray used to announce the second game of doubleheaders from the bleachers the results were amazing.
Harry and his beer drenched pals were calling plays that only THEY could see.
“There’s a long fly headed for the center-field gap, that’s going to clear the bases. . . Oh, wait, must be the wind, Blasingame caught the ball near the mound. . . .”
and so on.
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
What I want to know is
why hasn’t VEB ever adopted hara-kiri as a meme for him?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
There were many such puns when Harry was caught in the sack with the wife of the Cards' vice president. That's how Caray became a Cub
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
actually he went to the white sox first
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 29, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Good catch. I'd forgotten that . . . .
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Nice story, I grew up listening to Harry pretty near all summer long for years.
And first thought upon his release was that I hope his replacement will be good..
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 29, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
That's never really grown on me for some reason
I guess I’m just not really much of a fan of the “signature” home run call. I’d rather have a broadcaster, especially a radio broadcaster, do a great job setting up the play rather than just trot out a catchphrase when something big happens.
Like Vince Scully
“And here’s the pitch. Reminds me of a similar pitch back in 1948. They used to call him old ripper. Now its deuces wild! 2 outs, 2 strikes, top of the 2nd.”
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Shannon is certainly horrible at setting up the play.
His use of pronouns also makes it difficult to determine what’s going on if you just tuned in.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It has the he. He is using the it to get the other guy.
He did it!
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
by hazel on Feb 28, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm in my car a lot for broadcasts so my opinion is probably jaded
I love Rooney though. He’s one of the best broadcasters in baseball in my opinion. I don’t like Shannon as much but I tolerate him.
I think they are a really good pairing.
they have their faults (Rooney’s excitment over popups to 2nd base, Shannon’s spaciness), but I think they work really well together. Rooney does a great job of play-by-play and adds in the right amount of romanticism. Shannon adds alot of color to the the color commentary. I am entertained listening to them, and that is more than enough for me.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
This is where I am.
Rooney acts as the adult in the booth, without being boring about it. Shannon is the ADD kid that just loves baseball. And they seem to like one another, which you couldn’t say about Shannon / Hagin. They work well together.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
It's a very good pairing.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Since I don't have access to TV, I listen to the games courtesy of Shannon, Rooney.
I appreciate the many references to St. Louis landmarks, history. Brings countless memories and adds enjoyment to the broadcasts for the Cardinal diaspora. . .
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
I like them both.
Shannon is great, especially if you aren’t interested in keeping a clean scorebook.
I like Rooney’s play-by-play and think he is worlds better than Wayne Hagin was.
#givelancechants
Been listening to them for the past couple seasons on daily basis, and do enjoy their broadcasts
immensely, Shannon is my favorite, still remember seeing him play and just grew up with him, and his early days on the radio with Jack Buck, thats probably why I like him the the most, Rooney has given me quite a number of heart-attacks on fly balls, that sound like it could be a homer, but ends up as a long out.
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 28, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Anyong. . . You still in Seoul? Ever head this way?
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Yep, still here, located just north of Seoul, nice day out,
clear blue skies, temp is now 47F.
Never been there yet, the wife has been on some tour package trips there a few times.
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 28, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
When taking the survey, I wish I could have given individual marks
Al and Ricky really brought down my overall scores.
...
It appears, from the reader comments, that Dan McLaughlin is a passable play-by-play man for most FanGraphs readers, but that Hrabosky and Horton are difficult to enjoy.
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Feb 28, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
This statement reflects my comment.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Me as well
I think McLaughlin is actually really good. Strikes the right mix of homer/objectivity, excitement/professionalism (on the air).
Not afraid to nitpick
Think of it as Al Prevention.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 3:32 PM EST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
Sweet, I'm glad they're doing this
Something to keep in mind when watching games on MLB.tv
apparently
Dan has had a breakthrough in his recovery…
Al Hrabosky… is the reason I am an alcoholic.
I like the one for the Fox broadcasts:
Broadcasters: Joe Buck and Tim McCarver:
Ratings (Charisma/Analysis/Overall): 1, 1, 1
Three Reader Comments
• "Joe Buck is the least charismatic man in the world."
• "Tim McCarver thinks the word ‘strike’ is spelled with five letters."
• "Joe Buck may have killed my parents."
Notes
It appears, from the reader comments, that everyone hates Joe Buck and Tim McCarver.
Torty Craig, we hardly knew ye.
by KlausChadman on Feb 28, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
anyone who thinks they hate joe buck should go read his twitter feed and think again.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Hey, I heard you were back.
Hiya!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Well Rick and Al are bad irregardless but I think comparison drove these rankings
The dodgers road broadcast is the worst because they are spoiled by Scully. Our TV broadcast is the second worst because we cimpare it to a good radio broadcast that was even better when Jack was around.
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 28, 2012 1:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry, not to be a total jerk,
but “irregardless” is not a word, and if it was then it would actually mean “without without regard” due to the double negative of “ir-” and “-less,” or simply “with regard,” so the word itself actually means the opposite of what you are trying to say.
I had a professor who used it all the time, and it drove me up the wall each time.
I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.
That is a very unique reply
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Theirs a lot that must irk you if you think grammer is a big deal
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 28, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
your wrong guys
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 28, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
I like this alot.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
by Hootie Who on Feb 28, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who, or what, is this in reference to?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 29, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
hyperboleandahalf.
she’s the one who came up with the alot.
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
Witch is more then I would of done
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
this is a keyword.
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!
by The Spanish Inquisition on Feb 28, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Using the word "witch" triggers the appearance of the Spanish Inquisition...
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
so does "jew"
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
one could almost say it was unexpected.
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!
by The Spanish Inquisition on Feb 28, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, regardless
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 28, 2012 6:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
D-Backs are the worst IMO
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t hear the details they were just finishing when I turned it on,although they didn’t seem to like the deal because of the number of years.
are you sure it wasn't just speculation?
The exact numbers you gave us have been floating around the rumors table recently
By gosh!
Two questions.....
You saber folks can help a brutha out here…..
1. Those of you that view contracts in this light, are you ALWAYS against overpaying a player for the WAR he is projected to produce? Is there never a time that you’d be okay with this?
2. I’m not sure I understand this 100%, so if I’m misinformed, please let me know. I’m under the impression that the price tag placed on WAR is somehow based on salaries during the previous season. For instance, if Player A produced 2 WAR and was paid $5M, and Player B produced 4 WAR and was paid $7M, then the market rate for 1 WAR is $2M. IF that is correct, then that means some folks are getting 1 WAR for cheaper then market price, and some folks are paying more than market for that 1 WAR, correct? How come this never comes up when discussing salaries? In order for there to be an average, unless everybody is paying out exactly the same salary for WAR, a lot of somebodies are paying more than market. That makes sense to me. Certain players are probably worth more for various reasons. Age. They play a key position. They play a key position and your club has few other options. You overpay for loyalty. You overpay b/c your club isn’t as attractive as other clubs. The guy will generate revenues b/c of who he is (like AP). I don’t think I’ve EVER seen this point discussed on this board, and it seems rather obvious to me. So am I incorrect in how this things works? Have I simply missed other people making this point? Does my point suck?
WAR is never discussed in contract talks because players don't understand it,
and agents and GMs probably don’t either.
Generally there is no reason to overpay a player for his level of production, although some in this thread have made the argument that because of the crappy alternative options in system the Cards are okay to overpay a bit for Yadi. Personally, I’m not okay with it on the grounds that it just seems like Yadi could be had for less, but I can understand the argument.
As you said, WAR/$ is an average and it is based on some teams paying above market cough Ryan Howard Contract cough and some paying below market value like the Matt Holliday contract. Some clubs have overpaid for reasons of loyalty (Jeter, Varitek, others), some have overpaid for stars because their club has been unattractive (Texas and Colorado used to do this). The argument that the player generates revenue is generally invalid because revenue is quite strictly tied to team performance. If the fan wants to see great players past their prime they can go visit Cooperstown.
The key position argument basically applies to Yadi, and it’s actually harder to overpay a player at a key position. Most of the really overpaid players are slugging 1B or OF types (Fielder, Bay, Pujols) or overrated/injured pitchers (Burnett, Zito).
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I know there are the Amaros of the world but this is just ridiculous
WAR is never discussed in contract talks because players don’t understand it, and agents and GMs probably don’t either.
You think Scott Boras is putting together terabytes of data and not hiring anyone to analyze it on the most basic level of free-internet websites? Do you think he got to where he is by being stupid?
You don’t think Antonetti knows what WAR is? Friedman? Luhnow? Beane? Huntington? Anthopoulous? Epstein/Hoyer? Cashman? Towers (who hired DePodesta)? Alderson who drove the Moneyball philosophy 15 years ago in Oakland? Harvard Grad Michael Hill? Cornell Grad Jon Daniels? Zduriencik? You think Megdal and Lunhow never talked to Mozeliak and he’s just clueless?
Those are just the guys that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt know what WAR is. The arrogance on this issue is ridiculous (VEP I’m looking at you)—-it’s not that complicated to have read Fangraphs once or twice, this stuff isn’t hard. And virtually everyone within baseball agrees that pretty much every team has a statistics department who get paid for this stuff—-and I’m pretty sure those people have explained Saber 101 to the GMs.
Not afraid to nitpick
This gets at the core issue,
which is that contract negotiation is much more art than science, and especially so with free agents that have an emotional connection to your fanbase.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Your tone is all wrong. Not sure why you need to call random people arrogant and ridiculous here.
As for your point, Scott Boras’s sales binders have been released before, and they are basically just cherry-picked data on how his player played like X HOF player up to this point in his career. That’s sort of statistics- ERA, HR, AVG, but it’s not WAR. There are fewer and fewer GMs who completely don’t understand WAR, but it’s close to a majority who do not. Easily most agents don’t understand WAR, and without a doubt the vast majority of players do not.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
My tone is in response to the condescending "agents and GMs probably don’t either"
As though we know what is said behind closed doors in the actual contract talks.
As for your point, Scott Boras’s sales binders have been released before
Boras’ public stuff is not what he actually knows. They release those to the public—-the STLToday Boards public. Again, do you think he’s smart enough to put together his own proprietary database but is so dumb he wouldn’t hire a single computer programming grad to manage it, who would then be all “hey, y’know what’s better than RBIs…?”
There are fewer and fewer GMs who completely don’t understand WAR, but it’s close to a majority who do not
I just listed 14 GMs who are definitely going to understand WAR. You could probably add Colletti, Josh Byrnes, Rizzo, Duquette went to the MIT stats conference, Wren at least calls stats a piece of the puzzle. That’s 20 and I’m sure some of remaining 10 have done a little digging themselves. They may not make it a primary tool, but these guys understand the concept.
Easily most agents
Do you know a single agent?
without a doubt the vast majority of players do not.
I’ll definitely agree with that. Although even that tide is starting to turn to some degree.
Not afraid to nitpick
I'm just calling it like I see it
There are still a shitload of godawful moves being made by many franchises. I’m sure there are a handful of franchise who are very smart and saber oriented (the Cards seem close to this threshold, but I would put them a couple levels behind the Rays and mabye a bit behind the Sox and the A’s and some others). But there are also many franchises who are still dumb as shit.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Also you can still "know about WAR" and make shitty moves
Hey maybe Mo saw Lohse’s WAR in 2008 and decided to pay him on the basis of that. You still have to know about proper player valuation – which 95% of FanGraphs commenters do not.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
you seem to be moving toward a soapbox
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
I'm on it, baby
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
I was told last week
that WAR is not meant to be predictive, therefore it is not discussed in contract talks, because they understand that. Contracts must reflect the players total value to the franchise, and not just his production. There are t-shirts, attendance, and how key he is to winning. It seems to me that Yadi is very key to winning if we are talking about post-season play and championships.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
two important things to remember
supply and demand, one catcher free agent and two teams “have” to have him….
teams have shelled out pretty variable amounts for WAR based on new contracts and last year’s WAR. i think this is where a lot of variability comes in, ie, the projections. jrey is my favorite example, signed this winter for ~3.5M/fWAR.
12 in 12, thank you very much
It is like an auction
Say there is an item with a normal worth of $900. Would you rather buy it outright at $1000 or wait for it to go to auction with three other collectors?
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
A lot of people disagree with this but I completely see why you are coming from
The problem is the same as clutch, just like you know it exists but you don’t know how much of a players production comes from the ability to handle/respond to pressure you don’t know how much revenue is driven by marketability and you don’t know the market for a position in two or three years due to injuries, draft picks, or surprise prospects or breakouts. What you know is that winning makes more money and is the most effective way to make money period and a players value vs replacement level players at thier position is TE most accurate way to measure how well a player will fill a need, make your team win more, and therefor make you more money. That’s why we focus on it
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 28, 2012 2:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Clarification
When I asked why this doesn’t come up when discussing salaries, I meant on this board, not necessarily between the club and a player. My thinking above seems pretty simple, and obvious, yet it’s a topic I really haven’t seen addressed here, on this board. Was just curious why.
DO NOT QUESTION WAR
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 28, 2012 2:47 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
$/WAR
In terms of average cost of 1.0 WAR, everything you’re talking about is considered. Teams like the Phillies have bad GMs who tend to overpay for WAR. Teams like the Rays have good GMs who tend to underpay for WAR. Calculating the average market rate for 1.0 WAR inherently captures these market realities.
As far as merchandise and ticket sales, this has been discussed on this board, especially in regards to Pujols.
WAR captures value in the context of the position played with its positional adjustment. That’s why players like Zobrist and Pedroia are as valuable as those who fit the traditional “run producer” model. In regards to catcher defense, VEB has spent the last two threads discussing it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
one thing in particular:
The guy will generate revenues b/c of who he is (like AP). I don’t think I’ve EVER seen this point discussed on this board
that point was discussed at length on veb leading up to the winter meetings.
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
its been discussed fairly often over the years
Just not regularly since it is hard to quantify
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 28, 2012 3:18 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I'll give it a shot
1) When we say the “value” of a player, we mean how much it would cost, on average, to replace his production in free agency. So, no, you’d never overpay for a player if you can replace his wins for cheaper in the free agent market.
Now determining how else you can get those wins is where the issue lies. There are certainly exceptions where you have to pay more than you’d like for wins. For instance if you have a hole at SS, and there are only a couple of FA options, you don’t have a lot of room to make bargains.
2) The reasons some players are paid more than they are worth is mainly because teams don’t value them properly. See, Ryan Howard, Jayson Werth, Prince Fielder, etc. There are some times when it makes sense to overpay for a player if you are on the playoff curve or whatever, but the fact that teams overpay doesn’t prove that.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
overpay ?
they paid according to their value to the team in the immediate future
based on that team’s needs
this may be an above average $/WAR, but the average has no particular value to any team in a competitive situation
why should the best players sign for average rates?
12 in 12, thank you very much
two answers . . .
1. no; “never” is too strong a word. but $/WAR is an awfully good starting point. i’d want a good explanation for why you’d deviate from it. examples that come to mind:
a. high- (or low-) leverage WAR: a player that would provide the team with that extra bump en route to the playoffs. high-leverage example – carlos beltran might have been a slight overpay once you think about the relative risks, but the leverage of the move for the cardinals made it make sense; low-leverage example – aj burnett was probably about even as a move for the pirates, but was a bad move overall because burnett’s acquisition barely moved the needle on playoff chances
2. the price of $/WAR is just the current index of what the market will bear in terms of payment realtive to value. i think we on the board generally do rely on it. in terms of why you don’t see a uniform outcome, i suspect the major factors are that clubs value players differently, some clubs are bad at finding good value or follow fallacious concepts of value, and (in looking at specific players) there’s a high variability rate per player per year in terms of their success. your 4 WAR RF may put up 2 WAR or 6 WAR next year, just because of year-by-year variation.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I hope Wainwright sticks around
Chances are Carpenter will retire before Yadi’s contract. But there is a very real chance that Yadi will be the only player left from the 2006 world series team.
Grit != flat out sucking.
It's "4 life" like the nWo. Complete with hand signal and everything.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
would Mo be the Eric Bischoff of the Cardinals' NWO?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I think he would, yes.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Dave Cameron, who apparently believes the deal is final, likes it
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
and by likes it
i mean he finds its understandable and is ok with it
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
Seems like he says the Cardinals gave Yadi a full-market deal after plussing Yadi up for "secret sauce" defense
while shifting this year’s risk of injury and poor performance to the team. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Basically, IMO, Yadi’s reported deal is “not terrible” because we like Yadi, he’s a good player, and we had no better options lined up. Great, I guess.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, "likes it" is an oversimplification. i generally agree with cameron on this one - there's a ton of uncertainty
and not any discount for a) possibility of injury b) taking on the risk of signing him before rather than after the season.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Well, my take
5 years $60m, I like.
5 years, $75m, I don’t like as much.
I’d say the former is probably a slight underpay, the latter is probably somewhere around the best deal Yadi would get, today, on the open market. So it’s not a huge overpay, but it seems generous given a) he’s under team control for one more year, and b) he’s coming off his best ever season which might not be repeatable.
I guess this also means we’re not expecting Stryker Trahan to fall to us in the draft….
Still bitching to contact.
But OTOH
this only takes him to age 34. I’d still expect him to be about an average catcher at that age.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 28, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
this is pretty much cameron's thinking
had we signed him to this deal on the open market, its fair value
since we gave him the deal a year before he hit FA, it might be an overpay
but, to be honest, outside of waino, i think Molina is now the face of this franchise, so i like the deal
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
its funny, a few days ago people were thinking 5/60 would be a big overpay
a lot of 4/44 talk. maybe we were all too optimistic though, who knows.
How cool would this be?
Matheny is considering inserting an intra-squad game into the workout schedule since Grapefruit League play doesn’t commence for another week. That game would likely be played over the weekend.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
pretty cool.
Considering I’ll be there on Saturday and Sunday for a couple of hours.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 1:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
live blog!!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
Would be very difficult on my blackberry.
But I will try to get as many updates in as I can.
by rumors on Feb 28, 2012 1:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Now that, apparently, we have Yadi sewn up
I figure A.D.A.M. is next….assuming he throws 150+ healthy inning this season with good results, what is his extension going to look like?
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
I'll take a shot
5/115 Option for 25/buyout 5
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think it'll be four guaranteed years with two option years.
It will be similar to Garcia’s extension in that way, but will be for much more money.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
wait
you think he’s getting 23/year?
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
Lee's AAV is 24M effective 2011
Sabbathia’s AAV is 23M effective 2009
What do you think Wainwright would get effective 2014
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
$18MM or so.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
DON'T FORGET THE PERSONAL SEVICES CONTRACT.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I can't wait to see if he's healthy this year
sign him noooooow
Something worth noting...
Molinas age well. Bengie had his highest fWAR season when he was 34, and his highest wOBAs came when he was 31 and 32. Jose’s two highest ISOs and wOBAs have been in the last two seasons at age 35 and 36 (if you throw out the 40 PAs in 2001 when he slugged .500+).
This isn’t definitive proof that Yadi will age well, but considering the Molina aging curve and the fact that he’s still in his prime I wouldn’t be shocked if he has another season or two where his offense is as good or better than 2011.
If the lesser two Molinas can still put up 1-2 WAR seasons at 34+, I’d expect Yadi will be worth more than 0.5-1 in the last year of this deal. Bengie topped 1 fWAR every season until his last in 2010 (age 36).
by jibbers on Feb 28, 2012 2:00 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
i have been thinking this as well
if Yadi ages like his brothers…we may well see his value rise over the next 3-4 years
HOW GREAT WOULD THAT BE!!!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
Aging Molinas are not predictive
have you learned nothing?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
"aging molinas"
that sounds like a really depressing circus act name or a really cool garage band name.
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I heard this last week, but can't remember which program.
I think there is something to it, but SSS. Plus, his brothers aren’t nearly as good as he is (hmm….maybe he’ll age better than them) and they don’t play nearly as many innings as him (oh, well maybe not)
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
"Come sit for a second, we need to have a talk."
“You see, Yadier, there comes a time in a young Molina’s life where he starts to feel some…changes. You start to block those balls in the dirt, or have the urge to throw behind the runner at first when no one is looking. This is nothing to be ashamed of, its perfectly natural. Its just happening a little earlier for you than your brothers, that’s all. Now get back out there champ.”
by LastoftheMozeliaks on Feb 28, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 13 recs
Well he was certainly a useful big leaguer earlier than his brothers
But whether this is because he “matured earlier” or because he’s just a better player isn’t immediately clear to me. This is far from a rigorous sabermetric argument, but I think it’s likely that Yadi outperforms the standard, .5 WAR/year aging curve.
Here's how many games the Molina brothers caught through their BR age 28 (2011 for Yadi) seasons:
Bengie: 491
Jose: 107
Yadi: 930
Yes Yadi is better and is currently in better shape than his brothers, but his brothers had put in nowhere near the amount of time Yadi has had behind the plate.
How many games overall, including the minors?
Wouldn’t catching in the minors be about as hard on the body as catching in the majors?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Harder. They don't sleep on mattresses in the minors, they have to sleep on the floor
and they have to use old newspaper for padding in their gloves.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Conversation between the Gladys Matta, Benjamin Molina and an Angels Scout in 1993...
MLB Scout: You have raised 3 fine catchers. How old are they?
Benjamin Molina: How old do they have to be to play in the US?
MLB Scout: 18 years of age.
Benjamin Molina whispers to Gladys Matta: Deben ser 18 a jugar (They must be 18 to play).
Gladys Matta: ¡Ellos comen todo! Bengie tiene casi 19 años, y Jose tiene 18 años hoy (They are eating everything! Bengie is 19, and Jose is 18 today).
Benjamin Molina: ¿Usted quiere que yo le diga que ellos son más viejos que ellos realmente son? (You want me to tell him they are older than they actually are?) ¿Y Yadier? (What about Yadier?)
Gladys Matta: ¡Por supuesto ellos son más viejos! ¡Seremos finalmente capaces de comer otra vez! (Of course they are older! We will finally be able to eat again!). Él es mucho más pequeño y come como un muchacho puertorriqueño normal, creciente. (He is much smaller and eats like a normal, growing Puerto Rican boy.)
Benjamin Molina to the Angels Scout: Bengie is 19 and Jose is 18. Yadier is still too young at this point in time.
Angels Scout: Well, I would like to offer Bengie a contract today. However, Jose will have to go into the draft. this June. How old is Yadier?
Benjamin Molina: Bengie’s contract sounds good. Yadier is 10. Bengie tiene un contrato, y Jose entrará en el esbozo en junio. (Bengie has a contract, and Jose will go into the draft in June.)
Gladys Matta: ¡Muchas Gracias!!!
by Jumsy on Feb 28, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
for the Spanish, even tho I have no clue if it’s accurate.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
he used upside down ? and accent thingies so it must be real.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
I used...
an online translator, so I’m hoping it is correct.
I don’t want to get burned again by translations like the time I wanted my name in Chinese writing, but it actually says Kung Fu Fighter
How is that not actually better?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 29, 2012 9:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
His actual name is Kung Fu Warrior
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 29, 2012 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ha .. nice
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 29, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
little noted fact: puerto rico is, in fact, in the US.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
We're thinking of going to San Juan for a vacation
Has anyone been there before, and would you recommend it if so?
by Merry CRasmus on Feb 28, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
I cannot recommend the P.R., as I've never been there
but have been to Tortola and Virgin Gorda, which are nearby in the British Virgins. I can recommend Tortola, tho it’s been 20+ years since I was there.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
haven't been there, but the scuttlebutt i've heard is that you have to be very careful in san juan. parts of the city are
very dangerous.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Cardinal trivia
Can you name the three oldest Cardinals on today’s 40 man roster ?
Can you name the three youngest ?
Can you guess without looking it up ?
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:21 PM EST reply actions
Oldest Berkman, C. Carpenter, Beltran
Youngest Zach Cox, Sanchez, and Rosenthal
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 28, 2012 3:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
finish that with a question mark?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 28, 2012 3:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Carp (oldest and turning 37 in April)
Cox youngest – turning 23 May 9
Sanchez third youngest turning 23 in February
Berkman second oldest turned 36 earlier this month
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Cleto is my other "youngest" guess
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Is Beltran the third oldest?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
nm, saw the answer below.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Oldest:
Berkman, Furcal, and Beltran.
Youngest:
Sanchez, Cox, and Kozma.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Two correct on the oldest
Two correct on the youngest
A pair of Meatloaf answers
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I completely forgot Chris Carpenter.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Oops
you actually only had one correct on your oldest list. Berkman. Carpenter is another.
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
And the third oldest Cardinal is
JC Romero. Turning 36 in June
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 28, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I don't want to be obnoxious, but just in case people haven't seen my fanpost:
Some of us are doing an Ottoneu league. Once Rui signs up (ahem) we’ll still have 4 open teams. Check out the fanpost if you’re interested!
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 3:28 PM EST via Android app reply actions
FANSHOT, not fanpost. Sorry.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 3:29 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
What is an Ottoneu league?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So it has one offensive category?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think you'd like it.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 3:36 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
wait, does it cost money?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'll join, Spants
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Sweet.
I need an email address. You can email me at the address in my profile.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 28, 2012 3:48 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
its
ireallyregretthisusernamenow@vivaelmail.com
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
by Aranathor on Feb 28, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
sent
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still waffling between
talking myself into this and talking myself out of it.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
That was fast! An interesting line-up of VEBers.
No, I’m going to stick with Viva el League only. I hope you make the league public. Should be fun to watch.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
is there a way for me to view the way in which this league will score?
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
It's defaulted to the FanGraphs points setting.
It looks awesome.
http://ottoneu.fangraphs.com/support
Scroll down to “What are the Different Game Types?” to see more.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
I'm guessing that once the league is full there will be more options.
Right now I can’t really change anything or see much. Yahoo is like this in some aspects, too.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
oh, okay.
Thanks!
I’m nervous, though. Three leagues.Commissioner in two. Baby.
If options allow, I might want to add a co-commissioner.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
That word just looks wrong
I think it should be co-commissioneer.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
do i have your blessing to make a rhéal pun my team name?
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
My blessing and hearty endorsement.
I was thinking “Wine, Women, and Wong” myself.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 28, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
when is the draft?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
thanks
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
i still like the traditional 5x5 roto fantasy baseball
as flawed as rbi’s and batting average are to evaluate players there’s still something fun about them for fantasy. i also get an odd satisfaction out of using a horrible real life player to dominate in fantasy.
oh im not trying to hate on your league
just saying the standard fantasy baseball stats are still kinda fun IMO
which would you rather have?
Pujols at 10/220 starting this year [i.e., the contract we offered him this offseason]
Molina at 6/75 starting this year
By gosh!
Pujols
But that’s if I have to pick one. To be honest, I’d rather not give either of those guys those deals.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
me neither, but I think one of those two contracts was inevitable
I wonder if keeping Pujols would have persuaded Yadi to not be as stingy and take a hometown discount…
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 28, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt it.
I mean, the Angels have a veritable black hole at the catching position and would seem to have a ridiculous amount of money to spend with Torii Hunter coming off the books next year. If Albert had any sway with Yadi, why wouldn’t he just work his magic to persuade Yadi to follow him to Anaheim?
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
pujols.
but both those deals suck.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 28, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
To me, the choice is:
Pujols at 10/220
or
Molina at 6/75 and Wainwright’s extension
I actually agree with Miklasz that the Pujols extension likely would have precluded a Molina and Wainwright extension. I’d rather have Molina and Wainwright signed through only their mid-30s than Pujols sign through age 41.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 28, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
that's true
I’m curious to see how the whole waino thing will work out
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 28, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Smooooooooooth
ie
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
i know scouts are kinda "meh" on his defense, but i don't really see it. he looks plusish to me at least.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
+1ish
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 28, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Matt Carpenter was pretty much spectacular on defense during spring training last year
i don’t know why people are so mixed on his fielding. but maybe they know something I don’t.
I remember Mike Shannon was going crazy about the kid.
spring training Mike Shannon is pretty entertaining.
If we give Yadi a raise this season is that our mid season Oswalt money?
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Feb 28, 2012 4:03 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Reply fail
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think we have mid-season Oswalt money.
I think that ship has sailed.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So which would you rather it be?
I’d take Yadi.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Feb 28, 2012 4:12 PM EST reply actions
Yadi and ISO
Yadi’s ISO doubled from 0.80 to 1.60 this year. I’m wracking my brain to figure out how I could get list of the biggest one-year increases in ISO (all players, all years) and then see what they did in terms of ISO the year after the big increase. Trying to guess at what Yadi’s ISO will be in 2012.
I’m trying everything I can with the Play Index on B-Ref, but I can’t find the right section. Not even sure it’s doable with the Play Index. Any ideas or other sources?
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
Bautista has gotta be the biggest jump
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 28, 2012 4:36 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Bautista's ISO jump from 2009 to 2010: 106%
Yadi’s: 100%.
I would love it if Yadi’s “year-after” is like Bautista’s year-after. That’s what I’m trying to do, see if a “substantial” increase in ISO sticks around the following year or if it’s more likely to drop back to career levels.
I might have to just use brute force with Fangraphs data…we’ll see what I get.
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
it's most likely to go somewhere in between
but it’s a good experiment none the less
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
You need spreadsheets to accomplish your goal
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 28, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
What are these spreaded-sheets you speak of?
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
Have their been any notes
On Matheny’s influence on Yadi’s deal? I’d guess Mo would’ve asked his advice on this even prior to him becoming Manager, but there’s also been the sentiment that with TLR gone, Mo’s the one calling the shots on his own.
Teach Me How To Torty
by HollidaysofThunder on Feb 28, 2012 4:29 PM EST reply actions
hey guys, what if this contract doesn't even end up happening?
wouldn’t that be hilarious…
give me arabica or give me death -- spants
Heh
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 28, 2012 4:37 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Sorry if Nexdef'd
But I have a mental image that can never be unseen (Ken Rosenthal article about A.D.A.M.)
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 28, 2012 4:34 PM EST reply actions
For those who don't feel like clicking, here's the image....
….Their friend, Beverly Baynes, produced a custom-made skirt for Wainwright, who is 6-foot-7, 205 pounds.
"She bought the fabric and made it and stitched it," Wainwright recalled Monday. "We even altered it to make it come up just high enough to be disgusting but not high enough to be too disgusting."
Cardinals infielder Skip Schumaker disagreed with that assessment, saying the amount of leg that Wainwright showed was "gross."
Left fielder Matt Holliday also was less than impressed with Wainwright’s look, calling him, "a 6-7 cheerleader with a big old butt."
But we digress.
"I had pom-poms," Wainwright continued. "And a Yadier Molina shirt I bought at Target. I rolled the sleeves up. My wife knows how to roll ‘em to be super-cheerleady, really girly.
"Then I bought these Cardinals Argyle socks, pulled ‘em up to my knees. I had a headband. And ribbons — ribbons coming out of my sleeves."
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 28, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Adam Wainwright is awesome.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Evidently Holliday offered Waino a sizeable amount of money to go out dressed like that during the Opening Day festivities
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 28, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
so did he start this trend on the team?
And a Yadier Molina shirt I bought at Target.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
OT
Around New Year’s, some of you linked to the Slate.com article on the map that won the mapmaker’s award for best map. Well, that article apparently turned around the mapmaker’s life by triggering a whole bunch of orders of the map.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
mmmmm map
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
That's awesome
Yeah, I definitely tried to buy the map that day. They should make it into a shower curtain!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Feb 28, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's awesome. I tried to order it, but the server was down! I might try again.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
fantastic
when that Slate article went up, his site had crashed and with the time that passed I had forgotten all about it. Purchased!
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
i think I posted the link to that story actually
thanks for the follow up and glad he did well
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 29, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Salvador Perez....
That’s a scrumptious contract.
Sign Bubbie Buzachero!
by cardinalswsbound on Feb 28, 2012 5:31 PM EST reply actions
don't comment here often, but...
i LOVED this article. good stuff, dan.
capital letters suck.
by soccerfreak on Feb 28, 2012 6:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You should comment more
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
McCarp taking reps at literally every infield and outfield spot
Dude wants to be on the damn roster.
Carpenter worked out at third base during these normal workouts and then stayed after workouts to take groundballs at first base. He said he plans to get some practice in at every infield and outfield spot during camp.Per the Bird Seeds
Who does he think he is, Scott Speizio?
It’s him or Alex Cora for the last spot on the 25-man……
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
hearing that the team will be choosing between matt carpenter and alex cora is sort of like hearing that we'll be
choosing between a vacation in bermuda and a vacation in a vat of human waste.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
but the vat of human waste comes with a free frogurt.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
It's too perfect for it not to happen....
TLR, lover of valueless, veteran middle infielders, leaves only to have Alex Cora make the team.
If it were me, MCarp would make the 25-man until Craig is healthy. When Craig comes back the team can decide if MCarp should go down or if Komatsu gets sent back to the Nats.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Can I feel it?!?
Mo just signed Cora to a two-year contract after you posted this!
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 28, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
hmmm, that's tough
I really like MCarp and want him to make it but I always root for Rule 5 picks because, when they work out, it’s getting a free player.
Fantasy guy at ESPN is acting like its a done deal
Has it been confirmed, or is everyone just speculating that it will definitely happen?
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 28, 2012 8:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Every report I've read is that it is all but finalized.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So we're all waiting...ugh.
Maybe he’s getting the contract tattooed on his back?
It's Spring Again! ...witch
signing that would be difficult
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Feb 28, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
If Yadi's rumored extension is excessive, whose contracts are the most team friendly?
Freese? Craig? Sanchez (assuming he breaks camp with the team)?
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
jaime
wainer
and i mean yeah, the pre-arb guys, obviously, but they don’t really count
by prophetjohn on Feb 28, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't Jaime sign a lucrative extension recently?
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Yes
But it’s extremely team friendly
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 28, 2012 10:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have a special need for this contract to happen
I have been largely successful in convincing my wife to watch and enjoy baseball since we started dating 8 years ago.
Her favorite players in that time: So Taguchi, Jim Edmonds, Yadier Molina. Convincing her to stick with cardinals and not go with the cubs (her briher’s team) after Taguchi and then Edmonds joined them was a chore. I’m not sure I can convince her to stay the course if Yadi leaves.
This is bad for two reasons:
1. It gives us something to share, so losing it would be bad
2. It allows me to watch for more games than I otherwise would be able to.
In summary, please sign Yadi
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 28, 2012 10:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
isn't she a diehard cards team fan by now independent of her favorite current player?
guess not so hopefully we sing yadi!
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 29, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
most of it. it's pretty funny. not as good as the tina fey book.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
every picture of Tiny i see on your twitter feed is cuter than the next.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Just saw the pics of the little one.
So, so, so cute!
by peach concrete on Feb 28, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'm doing literally nothing other than chugging water and pissing in hopes of getting rid of this illness by tomorrow
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I read this in the most insincere and sarcastic tone possible.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Makes it more fun!
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Feb 29, 2012 11:54 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
So, you're a Water-Method Man
Wimp.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 29, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
*crickets chirping*
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 29, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
right back at you, fink!
"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache
by peppermartin on Feb 29, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions
Well...
here’s to x more years of THOU SHALT NOT!
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Feb 29, 2012 3:01 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
I love THOU SHALL NOT!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 29, 2012 9:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The faces cut in half by "wide view"
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Reminder:
MLB At-Bat 2012 is released today. Keep an eye out at your preferred App Store.
It's Spring Again! ...witch
Any RedBird Report subscribers in here?
Pre-sale tickets can purchased right now if you have a RedBird Report subscriber password. PLEASE?!
I already liked Goold a lot, he's a talented writer.
But this was really neat to see, as well as a short discussion of his beginnings in the sports media business. He just seems like a down to earth, likable guy. Thanks for the link.
Al: You know what they call a butterfly without wings Dan?
Dan: ...What, Al?
Al: A Butter-walk!
Dan:..........
by liars&thieves on Feb 29, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
February 29th should be a national holiday.
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 29, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions
People born today
age at only one-fourth the rate the rest of us do. Bastards.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 29, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I'm dressing up as Leap Day William
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 29, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
He does have a sweet hat and stache
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 29, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
either that or make election day a day off so more people actually go out
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 29, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Good piece on Grantland about the Pacers-Pistons brawl.
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 29, 2012 10:59 AM EST reply actions
Another reason we should pay Yadi..
Other news, notes and observations from the day:
Wainwright threw one curveball during his live BP session. Molina hit it over the fence.

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