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no horse left unflogged

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spring training continues. one week on from the first official pitchers and catchers report day and still no dramatic injuries or difficulties for our heroes in red. although count me skittish about jordan swagerty's bone chips flying about inside his elbow joint.

jenifer langosch - whose writing continues to surprise me, pleasantly - rounds up an extended quote from colby rasmus to the toronto press about his experience in st. louis. my ability to link material appears to have been fed some sort of kryptonite code. not sure whether to blame SBN or the latest, fiendish incarnation of Internet Explorer. actually, i'm gonna go with microsoft here. i think it's messing with some of the scripting functions on this site.



this follows a somewhat overlooked article from joe strauss exploring john mozeliak's role on a tony la russa-free club, in which strauss confirms that la russa "last summer pressed ownership and Mozeliak to reconsider their reluctance to trade center fielder Colby Rasmus." not that anybody had any serious doubts that la russa had a hand in the trade.



and oh, dear, jeff gordon opened his mouth, too. i don't know why anyone would read this drivel, but here's a link to gordon's ramblings. you'd be better off asking your cat what she thinks about the rasmus situation.



of course, rasmus remains a divisive issue, much like counterpart/nemesis tony la russa. and anybody who wants to can read into the interview whatever they like to support their thesis on rasmus.

i certainly have little difficulty believing that la russa is a hard man to work with, having collected more than his share of hacked-off ballplayers who ultimately had to be traded to suit his management style. and there's some support for those claims in rasmus's interview. la russa, it seems fair to say, is a high-tension man, and some ballplayers may simply not respond to high-intensity, high-pressure management styles.

at the same time, the interview lends more than its share of ammunition to the "rasmus is whiny" crowd. colby at one point claims he didn't even watch the world series, weakly claiming he had something else to do without, you know, mentioning what that something was. and, while tony may have been too intense and too insistent, rasmus reminds us that la russa was basically asking him to focus on doing his job. having coaches ask you to work hard, focus, and accept criticism is part of the game.

having come at the issue from the perspective that both tony and colby likely contributed significantly to the rift between them, i am totally unsurprised that i come away thinking the exact same thing. in the end, if rasmus succeeds in toronto, st. louisans may re-evaluate whether the media was accurately portraying the tense player-manager relationship. if rasmus fails to live up to his potential, it will become harder to find rasmus defenders.

the good news is that anyone reading the interview, whichever camp they come from, will agree that colby rasmus is either the least coherent interviewee ever or just high as a kite throughout. it's good to find some common ground for everybody.

Star-divide

the good news is that we don't have to continue rehashing the drama of last season.

derrick goold has an interesting interview with erik komatsu - whom no one has YET compared to jeremy lin. i'd like to say that this restores a small amount of my faith in humanity, but it's probably moreso that the usual suspects (gordon) don't know who komatsu is yet. i bet if he hits well in spring training, somebody makes the comp. anway, goold's lin-free interview is worth a read, like pretty much everything else he writes. of interest is to what extent komatsu's foot fracture kept his offensive production down last year.



willie "mr. average" mcgee is in the complex, through the intervention of john mabry, of all people. he joins ozzie smith and lou brock and a wealth of other former cardinals with wisdom to share.

i'm besieged by technical issues at this point, so i will leave you here. tell us in the comments which player you are following most closely in spring training.

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Coming at the issue
having come at the issue from the perspective that both tony and colby likely contributed significantly to the rift between them, i am totally unsurprised that i come away thinking the exact same thing

Having come at the issue from the perspective that Colby Rasmus caused most of the problems by behaving like a spoiled child, I am totally unsurprised that I come away thinking the exact same thing.

I guess how much one chooses to blame TLR is up to the individual, but that interview made Rasmus look terrible. He criticized his manager for telling him to keep working hard. That’s bad. And Rasmus’s notion that the cheerleading St. Louis media ate him alive is bizarre.

Anyway, any shot of Komatsu making the roster?

by Vidor1 on Feb 25, 2012 6:29 AM EST reply actions  

I also thought Colby looked foolish when...

complaining that his co-workers trying to help him caused him to struggle.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Most of the time, when someone is struggling, the very last thing they want to hear is

“keep at it, it’ll turn around”. I’m just now reading A Good Walk Spoiled by Feinstein, and just read the part this morning where Fred Couples was struggling during the 1993 Ryder Cup, and all anyone had to say to him was “Keep at it”. He finally blew up at Watson, the team captain, when he was like the 5th guy to say this to him.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 25, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand folks with such a one-sided view of the Rasmus-La Russa rift.

La Russa openly referred to Rasmus as “Luhnow’s boy” and yet, somehow, Rasmus is the only one who is “childish?”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I remember hearing that people said TLR referred to him as Luhnow's boy

but I don’t remember TLR actually saying that. Maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not, but it could be as simple as some tongue-in-cheek joke that someone passed on to the press — I’m happy to be refuted, but I don;t think of anything that TLR did as childish so this doesn’t really fit

Just win

by The Duke on Feb 25, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It was in reference to the strife between Jocketty and Luhnow that got Jocketty fired.
Jeff Luhnow, the Cards’ vice-president of player procurement, made Rasmus his first pick in the 2005 draft, causing La Russa, according to Tony Rasmus, to “make cracks how Colby was Luhnow’s boy and that led to (former GM) Walt Jocketty leaving.”

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/article_749bb700-b933-11e0-9e01-001a4bcf6878.html#ixzz1nQEIOmEq

Now, that is from Tony Rasmus, so take it with a grain of salt.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait a minute.

If Ras was drafted while Jocketty was GM, doesn’t that make him Walt’s boy? Walt has no responsibility here? Also, were the Cardinals expected to know exactly what Ras’ personality would be like, and that he would rub Tony the wrong way, four years in advance?

This is also asking me to believe that Jock got fired just because of Rasmus. No way that’s true, there were a lot more factors involved.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 25, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Luhnow was a non-baseball man brought in to run the draft.

He and Jocketty clashed and Jocketty lost the battle for power with DeWitt firing him. It wasn’t because of Rasmus but Rasmus was unfairly the poster boy for the Luhnow era. Because of this, he became a divisive player. Judging by today’s thread, he still is.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Especially with this:

the good news is that we don’t have to continue rehashing the drama of last season.

80% into the post.

Well played, Tom. Well played.

It's Spring Again!

by TBender on Feb 25, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Rasmus became a divisive

player because he was such a disappointment to TLR, not because he was drafted by Luhnow. There were other Luhnow-drafted guys who did not become lightning rods and who did not disappoint TLR.

Listen, i am not arguing that there was not a clash between the Luhnow and TLR/Jocketty factions, I just don’t see why we have to characterize Raz as the poster boy. If he had combined his own considerable ability with Pujols’ singlemindedness or Schumaker’s attitude, TLR would have loved him like a son and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. To me, the discussion of Raz’s problems with Tony/other players is an entirely separate matter from a discussion of power struggles in the FO.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 25, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand why this is still an issue.

Colby was traded, the players received (and dumped) in the trade were essential in winning a world series.

/end controversy

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 25, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

This is extremely one sided

Clearly Rasmus is difficult to coach and apparently a little whiny but more athlete’s who are praised for having “humility” and being a “team guy”. Tony on the other hand has rubbed several players the wrong way in his time with the Cardinals so it’s not like Colby is alone in battling with him. I wasn’t familiar with his relations with players in Oakland but we all know Tony is obsessed with .300 batting averages hence Aaron Miles. It seems from his time with the Cardinals Tony is a proponent of offense but grades offense mostly on BA and great defensive guys or elite players that don’t bat .300, with the exception of McGwire who is the most prolific pure home run hitter ever, always seem to have a rift with him. Colby could have pushed his father away from coaching, made efforts to prove his work like putting in extra time, and especially not making these comments that do make him look bad. Those things being true, Colby was absolutely buried here, including his Dad and extra focus from veteran players and coaches due to his potential his was heavily coached. He was hated by Tony for being “Lunhow’s boy” from the get go since Tony and Lunhow were battling for power, and even though the St. Louis media is very soft from either guys not liking him because they feel however Tony feels (Hrabosky) or loved Ankiel and decided hating Colby was the best expression of that love or because he had unrealistic expectations he was bearing the brunt of every ounce of negativity from our media so they didn’t feel like the soft St. Louis media to him. It’s silly to take one side on this either way. Its much like the Ozzie Tony scenario, Ozzie was mad because at age 40 he was splitting time because Tony was trying to win, Tony was mad at Ozzie’s unwillingness to step aside, Ozzie stated away from the Franchis for years because the two had such a feud. Clearly Tony is a good manager that asks his players to do better and veteran players try to help younger guys, and clearly Cloby could have moved on from his Dad’s coaching. Clearly Tony rubs several guys the wrong way, took his battle with Lunhow out on Colby, and Colby got over coached and squashed by the media. That’s it. Don’t be Al.

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 12:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Tony loves the .300 average?

I’ll refute that. I’m going to use bWAR, because I can navigate the site more easily than fangraphs to get what I want out of it.

In 1996, the following players got at least 500 PAs.
Ray Lankford .275
John Mabry .297 – also fifth best OPS on team and the only 1B on the squad
Gary Gaetti .274
Brian Jordan .310 – also third best OPS on team and highest WAR from position players
Royce Clayton .277
Ron Gant .246

In 1997
Delino Deshields .295 – also second best OPS and WAR on team (wow!)
Royce Clayton .266
Ray Lankford .295 – also best OPS and WAR on team
Ron Gant .229
Gary Gaetti .251

In 1998
Mark McGwire .299 – you provided him as an exception
Ray Lankford .293 – also second best OPS and third highest WAR on team
Brian Jordan .316 – also third best OPS and second highest WAR on team

In 1999
Mark McGwire .278 – again, exception here
Edgar Renteria .275
Fernando Tatis .298 – also second best OPS and third highest WAR on team
Joe McEwing .275

In 2000
Edgar Renteria .278
Jim Edmonds .295 – also best OPS and highest WAR on team
Fernando Vina .300 – also fifth best OPS and fourth highest WAR on team (Polanco was the only other 2B, but was backing up several places)

In 2001
Fernando Vina 303 – also fifth highest WAR on team and only 2B on roster since Polanco started at 3B
Albert Pujols .329 – I’m marking him as an exception every year
Placido Polanco .307 – also fourth highest WAR on team
Jim Edmonds .304 – also third best OPS and second highest WAR on team

In 2002
Fernando Vina .270
Albert Pujols .314 – exception
Edgar Renteria .305 – also third best OPS and third highest WAR on team
Tino Martinez .262
Jim Edmonds .311 – also best OPS and highest WAR on team

In 2003
Albert Pujols .359 – exception
Edgar Renteria .330 – fifth best OPS (.874, though) and third highest WAR on team
Scott Rolen .286
Tino Martinez .273
Jim Edmonds .275

In 2004
Albert Pujols .331 – exception
Edgar Renteria .287
Jim Edmonds .301 – also second best OPS and third highest WAR on team
Tony Womack .307 – also fourth best WAR on team
Scott Rolen .314 – also third best OPS and second highest WAR on team

In 2005
David Eckstein .294 – also fifth best OPS and third highest WAR on team
Albert Pujols .330 – exception
Jim Edmonds .263
Mark Grudzielanek .294 – also fourth highest WAR on team

In 2006
Albert Pujols .331 – exception
Juan Encarnacion .278
Scott Rolen .296 – also second highest OPS and second highest WAR on team
David Eckstein .292 – first example I can find, but turned into WS MVP

In 2007
Albert Pujols .327 – exception – only player with 500+ PA

In 2008
Albert Pujols .357 – exception
Troy Glaus .270
Ryan Ludwick .299 – also second best OPS and second highest WAR on team
Skip Schumaker .302 – second example I can find

In 2009
Albert Pujols .327 – exception
Skip Schumaker .303 – also third highest OPS on team, and moved to second to maximize his potential value offensively
Yadi Molina .293 – best defensive catcher in game
Ryan Ludwick .265
Colby Rasmus .251

In 2010
Albert Pujols .312 – exception
Matt Holliday .312 – also second best OPS and second highest WAR on team
Colby Rasmus .276
Skip Schumaker .265
Yadi Molina .262

In 2011
Albert Pujols .299 – exception
Lance Berkman .301 – also best OPS and second best WAR on team
Yadi Molina .305 – best defensive catcher in game, also fourth best OPS and fourth highest WAR on team
Matt Holliday .296 – also second best OPS and third highest WAR on team
Jon Jay .297 – third example I can find – sort of – was the best CF (in terms of play on field) on team

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Thought this was going to be fourstick

livin fuzzy in a binary world

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 25, 2012 9:33 PM EST via Android app up reply actions   1 recs

Colby comes off as petulant.

However, Tony La Russa clearly has problems with a certain kind of player (laid back/sulky?) while loving another certain type of player (gritty/try hard)

PS. Android’s version of autocorrect switches “Russa” to “disdain” -seems about right.

by openside on Feb 25, 2012 6:48 AM EST via Android app reply actions  

I agree with Henrietta...

On a side note…

Saw a pic of Braun in the PD this morning. If he was taking steroids he was doing it wrong. He is not a big hulking guy. I think he is innocent based on the eyeball test… (as far as I know there are no saber-metrics for steroid use so this should suffice)

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't follow cycling close enough (at all) to know what those guys are taking,

but there has been plenty of non-hulking steroid users in baseball.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

we're talking testosterone, and energy

my suspicion he got run down at the end of the year and had a little “pick-me-up”, and over did it. not a coincidence it was a sample collected just as playoffs began

12 in 12, thank you very much

by sportsman on Feb 25, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

But, i'd have to agree.

If he’s using, he’s not using as well as Bonds, McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti, Sosa, and others used. I imagine of full-blown steroid using Ryan Braun could mash close to 60 homers and he’d probably weigh about 30-40 lbs more than what he does.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

My first thought

In seeing him, was that he looked 20 to 25 pounds lighter than last year.

by chicagocardfan on Feb 25, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder about some of those "guys"

like steve finley who all the sudden got strong.

I think the construction of the baseballs during that era also had something to do with all the home runs. Is not there some proof out there that MLB was juicing the balls ?

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I think changes in the baseball is the most likely explanation for the increased offense.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

and the ever-shrinking ballpark

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 25, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

yes...

but if they did tighten the ball that would have an effect …

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, of course. Your point was that Braun was not likely PED user because he was not a big hulking guy

My point was that LOTS of PED users are not big hulking guys, and they are still PED users and get the benefits of PED use.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 25, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

recovery time seems to be the biggest advantage since it doesn't alter your hand eye co-ordination

although I’m sure there is some marginal increase in strength that may impact bat speed ?

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Fast twitch muscle growth and development

HGH is better for recovery. So I’ve heard.. Roids definitely helps you go long in the gym though, and more often.

by openside on Feb 25, 2012 1:53 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

K

I am now sufficiently educated on PEDs without needing wikipedia…thanks guys.

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

also,

no amount of PEDs can save Braun from the wrath of Dotel..
I am sure he is happy he didn’t sign back up w the Lou.

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

i thought most of the PED use in cycling was blood doping, EPO, etc?

not trying to be argumentative at all here, i literally don’t know anything about cycling but i didn’t think they actually did “steroids”.

mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble

by tehzachatak on Feb 26, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

nvm, just read down

mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble

by tehzachatak on Feb 26, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan Franklin failed a drug test.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Rasmus will be remembered...

as the guy the Cardinals traded away for players who helped them win the 2011 World Series. Tony La Russa will be remembered as one of the greatest managers of all time. I can’t believe that any cards fan would still take Rasmus’s side in this fight. He didn’t deserve to be a champion.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 8:53 AM EST reply actions   3 recs

Doesn't deserve to be a champion?

What an absurd statement.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

it's absurd

how much you guys hate a manager who won so many games and championships, but love some whiny kid who isn’t really that good.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

no one on this site knew the trade would go down as well as it did

besides a lot of people’s attitudes haven’t been “hating on” so much as thinking he should step aside because he’s done all he’s gonna do. nobody thought the cardinals would have such a great september and post season.

by molina mo problems on Feb 25, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

true, but

That’s a true statement, but people still ripped on TLR, despite the fact that Rasmus went on to have exactly 140 PAs and either -0.9 (bWAR) or -0.5 (fWAR) after the trade.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

TLR didn't know that was going to be Rasmus' line

and if you were to play the season out 100 times, Rasmus would definitley have a higher average WAR than that.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

so you're saying that Tony knew

that Rasmus was going to turn from an above average player into the worst player in baseball.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

He might have known

that his head was all fucked up and he wasn’t going to work out of his slump anytime soon. I’m not saying this with certainty. The word “maybe” doesn’t mean “definitely”

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, well I might have sex with Mila Kunis tonight

we don’t know. And that of course means that all outcomes are equally likely to happen, amirite?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

well, not really...

I mean..first you have to check to see if she’s in town.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

with nothing gone

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 26, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Serious question

In three years, would everyone feel that the trade was worth it if Colby turns into Jeremy Hermida, who has very similar stats to Colby through his age 24 season?

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Or he could turn into Jim Edmonds.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Doh!

although I don’t think Jimmy was ever that whiny,

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Rasmus was considered whiny, either.

At least while with the Cardinals. Now the experts on True Cardinalism are weighing in on Rasmus’s somewhat philosophical introspection on his failed stint in St. Louis and calling him a whiner. It seems to me that, during his time as a Cardinal, Rasmus was quiet and kept largely to himself.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah introvert=/=whiny

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 3:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

There's no evidence that he did "demand a trade."

The TLR apologists have seized on this despite the statements by Rasmus and Mozeliak to the contrary.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

do you know how often players demand trades?

I’m not in a clubhouse so i don’t. It could be fairly common for frustrated players to demand trades. That’s just a human thing, people get frustrated and say things they don’t mean. there’s no evidence that colby demanded a trade more often than anyone else.

The problem is we only hear about stuff like this when it’s being used to further an agenda (or just drum up some controversy).

by molina mo problems on Feb 25, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

jim edmonds was a better player at the time of his trade

but he was also seen as a malcontent who was coming off a bad year and dragging his team down.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 26, 2012 2:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't remember ever having heard

that Edmonds was a “malcontent” and/or “dragging his team down.”

by stlfan on Feb 26, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I wish Colby, Albert, Danny Heren well. Period.

Their contributions – spotted, magnificent, truncated, should not diminish the time they had with the Cards. Can but hope the team’s reward will balance out. Certainly did with Colby in the WS-run of 11, and the jury is in the voir dire stage with Albert and deliberating with Heren. . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Feb 27, 2012 7:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone here gave either one a free pass.

It’s easy to sit back and make broad generalizations though, so please, continue.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 25, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Also, Cory Fucking Patterson

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 25, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This isn't an either/or proposition.

Both parties are clearly at fault. That’s why I don’t understand this pro-TLR revisionism and shitting on Rasmus. It’s really bizarre.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

and there is really no way to frame the conversation without the previous run-ins

damn, I miss Scotty…. I play this little baseball app on my phone and whenever Rolen nabs a liner, I plead with him to throw the ball away to prove he’s still a Cardinal at heart.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

It started with TLR treating Ozzie like garbage and has continued through 2011 with Rasmus.

tom s. made a very good point about TLR’s track record, invoking the old phrase, “if you meet three assholes in a day, you’re the asshole.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Being upset at an decision that you view as wrong

And being upset at the person making that decision especially when you beleive that the decision shouldn’t have even been within that person’s power are very different than hating someone. Also the trade worked out very well with us winning a WS and gaining several sandwich picks and we are all now happy about the trade, but we got REALLY lucky. Trading a young, cost controlled player that’s already good (average in 2011 and very good in 2010) with worlds of potential because people hate him for not being elite and the manager hates him for personal power battles with two other people (Colby’s Dad and Lunhow, mostly Lunhow) is a terrible idea and we were mad at Tony because he was the one who put the decision in motion. People being unbiased about other people’s battles and being upset at others shortcomings when it can inhibit something they want to occur from occurring (Cardinals winning more from being better) is very different than hating someone, especially when we regularly praise that very same someone. You clearly are the only one hating anyone by hating Colby an taking a side. Your argument is “I’m biased and you are unbiased therefor you are biased against what I beleive, Tony is a great manager so he can do no wrong, in spite of all of the great things you say about him you daring to ever question Tony means you hate him, how could you hate him and support some spoiled brat just because you think he is good?, Tony is a HOF manager so like I mentioned before can do no wrong and he didn’t seem to think he was that good. BTW ignore Tony’s battles with Ozzie, Drew, Rolen, Brendan Ryan, ect.” your argument is very poor and very assumptive

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think that anyone could successfully argue

that Rasmus’ 2011 was average. He was worth 0.8 fWAR or 0.9 bWAR on the year in over 500 PAs.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, I remembered thinking it was on track to be average in June and I stopped paying attention

I should have researched more before saying that, sorry

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 2:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Rasmus had an above average wOBA as a Cardinal.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't care at all about why he might have been traded,

but I’m very interested to see how he does this season. Between Rasmus, Bautista, and Lawrie, I’ll probably be watching a fair number of Blue Jays games this season.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Angels/Blue Jays

would be an awesome ALCS matchup (with the winner playing the Cardinals)

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

How I feel about TLR has nothing to do with the baseless statement that Rasmus doesn't deserve to be a champion.

None of us are familiar enough with his work ethic or attitude to make such a statement.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

a guy who criticizes his teammates for trying to help him...

and can’t take criticism from his boss is FRAGILE. I don’t equate “fragile” with “champion.” I’m sorry that it offends you that I do.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Judging someone as "FRAGILE" based on your interpretation of a quote in an interview is absurd.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

See I personally consider a champion anyone who wins a championship

And since literally any player can win a championship if they play on the right team, the word “champion” is worthless.

I prefer to describe players based on how good they are. Crazy, right?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

It's absurd how reductive your post is

but this is an argument that’s been had too many times already on this site, so I’ll bow out

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Feb 25, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

yeah i'm not touching this one

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

last time i did that it spread to my face

so i think not

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This should have been my signature last season.....

I agree 100%. You don’t have to agree with the way Tony did things, but you can’t argue with his success. And at the end of the day, that is what matters.

by Stanley1 on Feb 25, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He's the George Patton of baseball managers.

Except for he never pissed in the Chicago River. That we know of at least.

by openside on Feb 25, 2012 1:27 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

With as much time he spent in chicago in the early 80's

this had quite a chance of happening

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 25, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

does falling into the river while pissed

count?

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946

by SleepyCA on Feb 25, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't argue with his success. We find him One of the greatest managers that ever lived

There is a huge difference between being a TLR fan and a TLR apologist. We are all TLR fans here as much as that fact pains you. You and this guy are TLR apologists. Also, no matter how much anyone hates or loves Tony or if there is a right or wrong side in thier battle and of so whomever that side is, Colby played well and was traded for important peices to contribute to a championship. The comment that Colby doesn’t deserve to be a Champion because he battled with TLR and made a smug comment to media meme era in another market is ridiculous. Agree with absurd stupidity makes you looks bad and weakens all of your defense for Tony. If you want people to listen to you, don’t start the defense by making yourself look bad, it doesn’t help your cause

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 2:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I didn't make....

Any comment about Colby not deserving a championship, so don’t point THAT comment at me.

And “we are all Tony fans”? Please. I wouldn’t put anymore than 50% of this board into that category.

by Stanley1 on Feb 25, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

he drove me crazy and I called for his head many times,

but I can’t complain about how the Tony LaRussa era wound up being. 9 trips to the playoffs in 16 seasons and 3 W.S. appearances? I’ll take it and I certainly don’t expect that from Matheny or any other future Cards’ manager ever again.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

He lost more games than any manager but one.

Does that count for anything?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 26, 2012 1:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Doesn't deserve to be a champion?

You mean, as opposed to Corey Patterson, because Corey contributed a lot to that team?

by apack on Feb 25, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

dumb question, probably answered several times already

but doesn’t Colby, at some point this spring, get a ring? Will there be any dust-up over where or how he accepts it? What will he DO with it?

by the Tewk on Feb 25, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

He'll probably just set it down on his coffee table and forget about it

#lazyrasmus

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 25, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Rasmus was a poor match for Larussa

I’d guess is that Rasmus, kind of like Andujar back in Whitey’s days, needs to be handled carefully to produce. I think a manager’s job is to handle a player in a way to extract maximum value, and Larussa failed to do that. You can label Rasumus whiny, but a manager can make a choice to handle headcases. Andujar, for example, was notoriously difficult to work with (for example, he was reportedly devastated when taken out of a game), yet Whitey took the time to keep him functioning.

I think Rasmus was fragile, and he came in to a close knit, veteran clubhouse, as a guy who was there to take playing time away from veteran players who were popular in the clubhouse. My guess is the players did not give him the sort of welcome he needed. And Larussa made him feel unwelcome as well. He was a quiet kid from a small town used to be being treated well, and suddenly everyone was treating him coldly and he didn’t know what to do.

Was he guilty of being not “mentally tough?” Yes.

Could the Cardinals have handled him better and gotten more value out of him? I’d think so.

The goal of the team is to win ball games however you can within the rules, not to be some sort of mental proving grounds to weed out anyone not as snarly and intense as Chris Carpenter. Having said that, I do think the Cardinals team chemistry seemed unusually dependent on having intense, angry players, so maybe the team couldn’t really adjust to someone like Rasmus, (or Brendan Ryan).

But their unwillingness to adjust is not all Rasmus’s fault. I supervise more than 50 people at work. Some people require more of my time than others to keep them happy and productive. I don’t just chase off everyone who is not my sort of person.

by tarakas on Feb 25, 2012 9:34 AM EST reply actions  

They were fair with Rasmus

they gave him plenty of chances. He refused to follow the organizational program, his dad was openly crticizing the team and manager, and he was sucking offensively and defensively in the field (and continued to do so in Totonto…despite being “comfortable”). He wanted special treatment but had done nothing to earn it.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

What special treatment did he want?

I haven’t read anything about this. I’d be interested in reading the reports. Could you please link to them?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

not working with the coaches...

i would consider it special treatment to want your daddy to coach you instead of the people who pay you.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Did Schumaker want "special treatment" when he worked with non-coach McGwire on hitting?

Lots of players have private hitting instructors and receive input from non-coaches. If that’s what you consider “special treatment,” you’re wrong. Also, the Cardinals openly stated that they were fine with him working with his dad on hitting. I don’t understand where you’re coming from on this point.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

was that during

The season? Working with someone else during the offseason is a little different. IMO.

by chicagocardfan on Feb 25, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

All-Star Break.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Link?

Not saying you are wrong, but I don’t remember hearing that.

I’d also guess that Mac wasn’t teaching Skip anything the STL coaches weren’t also trying to show him. Just a different delivery. The same cannot be said about Rasmus’ dad. The problem there was that they were telling Colby conflicting things. That’s a problem.

by Stanley1 on Feb 25, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The linked-to quotes below are from a report that came during the All-Star break.

But, Tony Rasmus reportedly helped Colby during the season as well, even using the video room and batting cages. Of course, if the team doesn’t want a third party using their facilities, it wouldn’t happen.

Your assertion that Tony Rasmus and McGwire are telling Colby conflicting things has no basis in any report. That’s merely you speculating, so I’m not going to engage the assertion because it has no basis in fact. In fact, when you read TLR’s initial comments about Rasmus getting help from his dad, there is no statement that Tony Rasmus is telling Colby one thing while McGwire is telling him another.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought he was getting conflicting coaching on his hands during his swing

And there was photographic evidence of his hands being held at different heights

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 2:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

We don't know that.

All we know about the supposedly conflicting instruction is Tony Rasmus taking to a message board and saying that McGwire was trying to turn Rasmus into another Schumaker. I take this to be complete and utter B.S.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes we do know it.....

I can’t provide links or quotes, so there is no reason to continue this, but that was the obvious problem with Colby getting outside coaching, as it was going against what the team wanted him to do.

by Stanley1 on Feb 25, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

we don't know that's true

there were conflicting reports on this matter, too

SACRIFICE THE MOTH!

by mattyfrommo on Feb 25, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

So, you know for a fact that he was getting conflicting coaching on his hands during his swing?

But, you don’t have any links or quotes to support that knowledge?

That’s interesting because I read a lot about the Cardinals and I don’t recall ever having read that Rasmus was receiving conflicting coaching on his hands during his swing.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Where did I say anything.....

about his hands?

I don’t remember how much of the “difference” was in pure mechanics, but a lot of it was in approach. Colby thought he was struggling b/c the Cards wanted him to be a complete hitter, and use all fields. Colby was more comfortable trying to yank everything. The Cards felt that was why he was inconsistent. When Colby worked with his dad, at least once, I remember the article I reading that they weren’t going to worry about the opposite field stuff. This board was up in arms over the whole thing, with several of the Colby fans naming off several really good hitters that pulled the ball way more often then not.

The entire point in Colby working with his dad was to “go back” to what he had been successful with before he reached the Cardinals.

And I’m sorry that I’m not going to dig through year old articles to find the those quotes/stories. I’m working my ass off this time of year, and don’t have that kind of time to devote to this kind of debate.

by Stanley1 on Feb 26, 2012 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, the issue wasn't that he was receiving addition coaching or expecting "special treatment"

It wasn’t even that he was being coached about conflicting things on his approach as McGwire (thankfully) teaches a conflicting approach to McRae, it’s that he was receiving conflicting coaching on his actual swing. That was very bad for him.

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 2:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

There were reports from Strauss that Tony Rasmus was in the stadium,

and Strauss inferred he was working with Rasmus in-season. But I don’t think that was concrete. What I do know is that McGwire said he was okay with it.

Also, McGwire texted Cardinals hitters before he was hitting coach with pointers. I wonder how that made McRae and Page feel…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

TLR on Rasmus...

maybe “special treatment” is the wrong phase

“No, he doesn’t listen to the Cardinal coaches much now, and that’s why he gets in these funks, in my opinion. If he would just stay with what they teach, he would have … but I actually feel concern for him, because he hears it from so many places, he’s got to be confused.”

IMO he should have listen to the professionals, not his dad.

Would you prefer we kept Rasmus and didn’t win the WS? I just don’t understand where you guys come from siding with the kid here…he had a good 2010, a good 2009, he was not good in 2011 even after he left the oppressive TLR regime

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

oh man
Would you prefer we kept Rasmus and didn’t win the WS?

i wasn’t prepared to encounter this kind of logic when i turned on my computer.

i should go work on that paper

#occupysesamestreet

by prophetjohn on Feb 25, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

and don't worry, rva, it's not just you

as i z through the rest of the thread it appears to have consumed VEB

#occupysesamestreet

by prophetjohn on Feb 25, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I am a simple man.

Tony was the Boss, Colby wasn’t. Under Tony the cards won a bunch of games and the ws. I like Tony. I give him credit for a lot of those wins. Those wins made me happy because I love the St. Louis Cardinals.

Colby and the Boss didn’t get along so Colby had to go.
When Colby started blaming the cardinals for why he didn’t play better he looked like a whiny bitch which made me hate him. When people start coming to aide of this whiny bitch instead of the organization it confuses me… maybe because I am a simple man.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Mostly people saw it as an unfortunate situation.

People objectively thought that Colby could have done simple reasonable things to help his cause and mend the rift… he did not.

People objectively thought that MO should have been able to get more from him in trade… but he could not.

People objectively thought that there were many improvements that Tony could make as a manager… he has not.

More words are being spent on Tony than Colby in this conversation because we mostly agree with some of your perceptions about Colby… he could have done a lot of things differently. That does not de facto make TLR correct in the way he handled things. That is an unreasonable conclusion that you are making.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Very well said

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 3:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

When did Rasmus blame the Cardinals for not playing well?

You’re just making things up. Whether or not it’s because you’re a simple man, I can’t say.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not saying Colby blamed the Cardinals per se. He's saying

that just maybe, Colby got blinded by his lust for the rich man’s gold; he forgot that everything he needed, was in his soul. He was just so proud, that he wouldn’t try, when all TLR wanted was him to be satisfied. If only Colby were a…..simple kind of man, it might have worked out.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Feb 25, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

i think that

he wants to be something he loves and understands

#occupysesamestreet

by prophetjohn on Feb 25, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

the crux of the argument is about professional responsibility

Part of the players job is to use constructive criticism to improve his performance.

However, part of the manager’s job is to get the most out of his team, and, as part of that, to maximize the productivity of every player. Tony did not adapt his style to get the most out of all types of players, and has a long history of conflicts with players.

This is not a blanket criticism of either of them. Just a note that they both could have handled the situation better, and had a professional responsibility to handle the situation better.

by apack on Feb 25, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

yep,

Some of these opinions have been discredited so many times….

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

In 2011, Rasmus was above-average offensively as a St. Louis Cardinal.

This is a fact. His production was “good.” It was better than Schumaker’s offensive production and Theriot’s offensive production last season.

Yeah, TLR flip-flopped on the issue of outside help as the trade deadline approached and he was throwing Rasmus under the bus to push for a trade. About two weeks earlier, he said this:

"At this point, the situation we are in is that our hitting guys, which are Mark McGwire and Mike Aldrete, they pretty much just provide work for Colby," the manager said. "When he wants to take soft toss or tee work or batting practice in the cage or outside, they are there to provide the work for him.

"But as far as the teaching, he is getting it someplace else. We don’t force anything on anybody. In the end though, I think it is important that if he does real well, then whoever is giving him the outside teaching should get the credit. But if he struggles, they should take that responsibility," La Russa concluded.

La Russa was okay with outside instruction before he was against it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

This isn't criticism, merely curiosity

How many ballplayers use their family members as “special coaches”? Colby seems pretty unique in this respect. I’m sure it made the Cardinals staff uncomfortable at some level. And (to me at least) it suggests a certain degree of immaturity on Colby’s part.

Everyone is saying “this thing is a business” lately. Well, I don’t bring my dad to the office so that I can do my job. Just saying.

by JWO on Feb 25, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not for sure on this,

but didn’t David Eckstein work with his brother Rick Eckstein?

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

But he’s gritty, so that’s okay.

This is my problem with everyone making a big deal out of Rasmus working with his dad. It is not uncommon for players to work with people other than their hitting instructor. Shit, Torres works with TPG and no one in the SF organization seemed to care.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem that I see, though

Is that these other people that are being listed – Albert getting advice from his wife, Cano getting advice from his father, etc. – IT WORKED for them. Rasmus flat out did not hit last year and was reportedly refusing to take advice from his coaches. He got benched and traded because he (again reportedly) REFUSED to do what his superiors wanted.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think with the tidbit of information that came out

that Tony knew in July or August that he was going to retire after the season, it’s not exactly a leap to believe that Tony definitely wanted Colby traded to bring back short term help, because really, what the hell did he care about anything past last season.

If Tony had planned on staying on as manager for a few more seasons (like I feared), I think Rasmus would still be a Cardinal, and Tony would have tried to figure out a way to mend fences. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that TLR used psychological trickery to fuck with the entire situation.

SACRIFICE THE MOTH!

by mattyfrommo on Feb 25, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

One could point to Rasmus's 2010 and say that it worked for him, too.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the statement that Rasmus “REFUSED to do what his superiors wanted.” McGwire was reportedly find with Rasmus working with his dad. La Russa did not object to it until the trade deadline was upon us. In fact, he condoned it.

Why are people just making things up about the Rasmus situation?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

"REFUSED"

Asked whether Rasmus is listening to the Cardinals’ coaches, he was more direct.

“No, he doesn’t listen to the Cardinal coaches much now, and that’s why he gets in these funks, in my opinion,” La Russa said. "If he would just stay with [basically] what they teach, he would have

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think a TLR quote is the best source of evidence in this discussion

it’d be different if someone else on the coaching stuff said it but if you’re trying to argue against the assertion that colby was ran out of town because of his problems with tony and not because of his performance or failings as a player, going to tony is probably not the way i’d go about it.

by molina mo problems on Feb 25, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

WTF?

The whole damn discussion is based on an entire article of things the player said!

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

that link isn't.

that quotes tony, whose influence, it is argued, is what drove colby out of town. if tony had it out for colby, tony is not a good source of information.

give me arabica or give me death -- spants

by il rosso on Feb 25, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

if you want evidence that colby wasn’t listening to his coaches, the way to do it would be provide some evidence from some of his seemingly less biased coaches .

I just don’t think any of us can really make a substantiated claim about any of this because we’re only getting bits and pieces of the story from people who have obvious agendas here (ie: tony at the time pushing for colby’s trade for whatever reason or colby retconning his time in STL)

by molina mo problems on Feb 25, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Then why are we having this discussion at all?

The link in the original article had all Rasmus quotes, which makes this entire argument moot.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

did you actually read the quotes?

there is nothing in the original article that says rasmus refused to do what his superiors wanted.

you made that claim, citing a completely different article.

someone pointed out that article quoted tony, which isn’t going to convince anyone of anything since tony hated colby (allegedly).

then you say this whole conversation is pointless.

then i post this.

give me arabica or give me death -- spants

by il rosso on Feb 25, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The article that I posted also said:

“La Russa was largely complimentary of Rasmus until the end of the interview. He spoke of Rasmus’ bright future and said that the club is not shopping Rasmus. At the end, however, La Russa was asked whether Rasmus is listening and responded tartly.”

The article was written the morning that Rasmus was traded – obviously before he was dealt.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

one could argue that the discussion itself is potentially interesting

assuming that they’re okay with talking about stuff we’ve ran into the ground, however there is something to be said about not making strong claims none of us can back up.

You’re claiming Colby refused to listen to his coaches but can provide no evidence of it. I can see why you would draw your conclusion from that quote, but i don’t think you can use it to definitively make a statement either way.

by molina mo problems on Feb 25, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

wasn't 2010

when Rasmus was not communicating as much with his dad because he got his girlfriend pregnant ?

by knifecakes on Feb 25, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't Cano's Dad tutor him?

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe he does.

Didn’t he pitch to Cano during the HR derby?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

also

the quotes in that article suggest he just wanted to be “comfortable” not stress over making mistakes. When has TLR allowed a player that luxury?

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know. And neither do you.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That speaks more to the issue of

the relationship being a bad fit than one of them wanting special treatment.

Colby puts too much pressure on himself when he does poorly and goes into spirals.

Tony likes to drive players with a riding crop all the time.

The two were a bad fit. Period.

Who'd want to be a man of the people when there's people like you?

by the red baron on Feb 25, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

true...

so you trade the bad fit for other peices that do fit, which they did. You don’t fire or undermine the manager with the track record TLR had.

by rva on Feb 25, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the central thing was Colby's semi-refusal to go the opposite way

(and I saw some proof of this with my own eyes) when pitchers were consistently working him on the outside corner and umpires were unfairly abetting this by hosing Rasmus with regularity.

by the Tewk on Feb 25, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

colby wanted to pull the ball,

the Cards wanted him to use the whole field…

by knifecakes on Feb 25, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...to be fair, it is more than just a few quotes.

I think both Tony’s and Colby do more than most to expose their true selves to the media.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we have years of quotes and tangible examples

of how Tony Larussa handles a clubhouse and players, from Tony and a wide variety of players, from reporters, from books, etc. I think this forms a pattern. 16 years of quotes, stories, Three Nights in August, etc., does not make me an expert on the Cardinals clubhouse. But I think I have an inkling.

Matheney’s new program, pairing up veterans with young players, to address what he sees as a problem on the team, fits this pattern as well….

by tarakas on Feb 25, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you on this,

Also, Colby has been more than open about the situation as well. It’s not like any of us are trying to pretend we know exactly how things really were. Tony and Colby have shared more than enough to kind of connect the dots.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

makes me wonder

wtf does the cardinals minor league staff do to prepare the players to be on a major league team, and the team for new players? we are talking about people who represent major monetary investments, and no prep other than baseball playing? they need more comprehensive preparation. we bring in new people and each one is assigned a mentor whose job it is get the teething problems reduced to a minimum and get them up to speed asap.

12 in 12, thank you very much

by sportsman on Feb 25, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know...

Seems like most of the guys we bring up are pretty well prepared. I think Colby was just mentally weak or socially awkward…Maybe a little of both. Hard to fix that.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

So you don't think.....

Vets EVER worked with noobs in Spring Training under Tony? That makes no sense. I remember several stories/quotes about guys like Carp showing younger guys how to do things, grips on pitches, etc.

by Stanley1 on Feb 25, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that anyone thinks the two groups were quarantined from each other.

It is pretty common knowledge that there was a less integrated experience than is being touted at ST this year.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, its hard to tell what was actually going on,

but there always seemed to be pretty starkly separate groups on the team. I think between Matt and Lance and Matheny, its going to be a pretty cohesive group.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.....

And some of that has to do with our system having so many guys that project as starters at the ML level within the next couple of years. I have no problem with Matheny doing this. Makes sense. But I do have a problem with suggesting that a) Tony didn’t allow/encourage that same type of interaction, and b) that Tony’s approach was somehow “wrong” or “less effective”. Sometimes two completely different approaches get you to the exact same ending.

by Stanley1 on Feb 25, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah,

at least as far as this particular system, we don’t have a data set at all.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I can agree with this, often there are several means to the same end

Tony had a way of doing things, it worked well, Matheny has a different way of doing things that should while losing some benefits, also bring new benefits and should hopefully also work well. Getting to see these new benefits come when this is put in motion is exciting

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 3:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Your awfully surly today...

I have no idea nor did I profess to have such knowledge my comment was made merely in jest.

:)

lil tip, don’t take me seriously I can be a little silly.

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You aren't fooling anyone.

Your “eelcat reclining upon a couch” is not only an insightful commentary on American consumerism, but a commentary of how we comment on American consumerism. It is brilliant and complex.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

maybe even Marxists ?

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish people would quit talking.

It’s very annoying when I’m trying to get a word in edge-wise.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 25, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course

I mean, in the one case you are talking about how you deal with human beings, but in the other case, you’re not dealing with human beings at all. Oh, wait, I guess you are….

Of course, my main example about dealing with payers was not work (and I never said office building), but was Whitey Herzog and the Cardinals. I think Whitey’s handling of MLB players in a clubhouse is a relevant example.

by tarakas on Feb 25, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait, so

tarakas drawing on his own personal experience of managing a group of people who were all paid to work as a team and accomplish a set of goals is somehow not relevant to this discussion, but you making these overly simplistic, half-cocked assumptions about the relationship between two people you’ve never met before based upon what each of them has said in the media is just exactly what this site needs on a Saturday morning?

I’m glad you’re so well qualified to speak on this matter. Otherwise we might never get anywhere. We might just go in these stupid little circles in which everybody yells out their own shrill judgments on the character of everyone involved in the situation without bothering to consider anything from some other point of view. And that would just be miserable.

But thank god that isn’t happening here.

Who'd want to be a man of the people when there's people like you?

by the red baron on Feb 25, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

What assumptions have I made?

this?:

I think Colby was just mentally weak or socially awkward…Maybe a little of both.

I hardly think that’s going out on a limb.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

You're feisty this morning.

I like it.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 25, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

TWSS

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 4:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm sorry...you are right.

Managing a bunch of millionaire athletes is exactly the same as managing a bunch of people makine 35,000/year and frightened about losing their job or talking back or causing any sort of rift in anyway.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a really shitty office environment you describe.

I work in an office environment with lots of entitled millionaires and no one is frightened about losing their job; and maybe tarakas works in a similar place, I don’t know. How’s that different, based on your experience running a professional sports team? By the way, what team was it?

by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 25, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't know

But how much would tony have lost his veteran club if he started treating rasmussen – who had never done anything really at the MLB level – like he was special and just handed a job regardless of effort or doing his job right (mental mistakes)? How much would his message lose if he expects full effort and accountability from his veterans who have done enough in the league to be veterans but treats the new guy who has done nothing like he can do no wrong to make him comfortable? I’m not saying you have to agree with his approach or coaching style, but I think managing 25+ millionaires who are largely treated as demigods by the American public is a little more difficult and complex than we care to acknowledge. Could he have handled Colby better? Possibly. Would treating him differently have helped the team? Possibly and possibly not. I don’t think any of us really know. In the end tony has 3 rings including the one he won last year after dealing with Rasmussen the way he did and then trading him. Therefore, I’ll give tlr the benefit of the doubt in this one.

by fltfire on Feb 25, 2012 10:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Autocorrect

Apparently turns rasmus into Rasmussen

by fltfire on Feb 25, 2012 10:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I could live with that.

What does it do to Rzepczynski?

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 25, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Thought for sure it would be McClellan

since he’s essentially our other LOOGY.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 25, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

are you new?

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 25, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Brand Spanking

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 26, 2012 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

ha

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 26, 2012 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, didn't suss the Lin-Lynn reference

until just now.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 26, 2012 8:11 AM EST up reply actions  

it was a ref to the bullpen phone debacle

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 26, 2012 8:15 AM EST up reply actions  

aha. my bad.

too obscure for me.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 26, 2012 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

no worries and good morning

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 26, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Autocorrect is the Texas bullpen phone

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 25, 2012 4:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Rasmus's 2010 line: .276/.361/.498 with a .366 wOBA. That's a 4.3-WAR season.

He also had a 2.8-WAR 2009. His 2009 was good and his 2010 was excellent. Especially considering his age. Even while struggling in 2011 with the Cardinals, his offensive production was still above average. His wOBA+ was 106. The revisionist history going on in this subthread regarding Rasmus is incredibly ambitious.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Clarification

Im talking about perceptions in the clubhouse which don’t always reflect reality.

by fltfire on Feb 25, 2012 12:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Possible

Actually I mean possible clubhouse views (given some of the veterans comments about boog after he got traded, I think such sententious were definitely possible). I’m mainly saying that we don’t know the details and it makes it easy to say tlr should have been more accommodating or his stubbornness or other traits people bandy about (without real evidence in my opinion) caused all the problems. Certainly that narrative could be true, I just dont think anyone outside of that clubhouse has enough information to make a statement one way or another. So I conclude that I personally don’t have that kind of information so I will give tlr the benefit of the doubt since what I do know warrants that. Colby did nothing after the trade and we won the worlds series. Does that mean tlr was right or did everything right. Of course not. I’ll just give the benefit of the doubt to him in this circumstance.

by fltfire on Feb 25, 2012 12:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Possible

Actually I mean possible clubhouse views (given some of the veterans comments about boog after he got traded, I think such sententious were definitely possible). I’m mainly saying that we don’t know the details and it makes it easy to say tlr should have been more accommodating or his stubbornness or other traits people bandy about (without real evidence in my opinion) caused all the problems. Certainly that narrative could be true, I just dont think anyone outside of that clubhouse has enough information to make a statement one way or another. So I conclude that I personally don’t have that kind of information so I will give tlr the benefit of the doubt since what I do know warrants that. Colby did nothing after the trade and we won the worlds series. Does that mean tlr was right or did everything right. Of course not. I’ll just give the benefit of the doubt to him in this circumstance.

by fltfire on Feb 25, 2012 12:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

In regards to Brendan Ryan...

The Cardinals wouldn’t have traded him if he wouldn’t have put up a .223/.279/.294 line in 2010. Let’s not pretend that the only reason he got traded is because Tony didn’t like him. If he had OPS’d .700 or at least close to it, they wouldn’t have felt the need to “upgrade”. Same goes for Colby. In both instances the Cardinals traded a struggling player that didn’t fit well into their clubhouse. I miss Brendan Ryan too, but he could’ve prevented a trade by not having a terrible ’10 season.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Even with that unlucky hitting line, he was worth 1.4 WAR.

Looking at the FIP-ERA gaps for Carpenter, Westbrook, and Garcia makes me wonder if Ryan is undervalued even by that metric. Getting rid of Ryan and replacing him with Theriot was stupid. There is no other way to describe it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

no shit it was stupid...

But there was a reason it happened other than TLR.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you honestly believe that TLR was no the driving force behind that trade?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

*not

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the driving force was Brendan's offensive production.

It doesn’t happen if he has a good offensive year…or decent…or anything except terrible

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know how you can make that statement so definitively.

The team underperformed its talent level and had a terribly disappointing season in 2010. Looking at the stats for Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, Holliday, Pujols, Rasmus, etc., it’s astounding that the team didn’t make the postseason. Changes were going to be made. Rather than replacing the horrendous Schumaker (a TLR guy), the club replaced Ryan, whose defense made him valuable despite horrible offense, largely because of his personality.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

So if Brendan duplicated his 2009

offseason production in 2010, you still think he would’ve been traded? I don’t see how you can make that statement definitively. If you recall, Mo was adament about upgrading the offensive production in the offseason going into the 2011 season. Why on earth he settled on Ryan Theriot is a complete fucking mystery, but he was clearly not happy with the way Brendan performed with the bat.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Mozeliak explicitly acknowledged that they could've stood pat and the offense would have improved.

Many reports about the Ryan trade cited to TLR’s problems with him and veteran players’ problems with him. Ryan Franklin was very vocal about his problems with Ryan’s personality. As an aside, if the Cards really got rid of Ryan because of Franklin’s bitching, that’s a travesty.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't going out to get ryan theriot (who arrived

BEFORE the trade) undermine this whole argument? Theriot had just as terrible a 2010 on offense. And nobody thought they were close on defense. Doesn’t replacing boog with an obviously worse player suggest the motives were personal?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Feb 25, 2012 2:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Who knows.

Maybe McGwire saw something in The Riot’s swing that he thought he could help with. Maybe TLR does have an obsession for middle sized white boys (i.e. GRIT) that everyone here thinks. Maybe Brendan didn’t get along with people in the clubhouse, as has been mentioned before. It could be any number of things that I am not remembering or coming up with.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

"Maybe TLR does have an obsession for middle sized white boys."

Well, to tell a family secret, Joe Thurston’s grandmother was Dutch.

by THerr on Feb 25, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No worries.

It just seemed like a good opportunity to use one of my favorite blazing saddles quotes.

by THerr on Feb 25, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Comps include Andruw Jones and Jair Jurrjens

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Feb 25, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I truly believe they thought Ryan Theriot was a better player...

I know….it doesn’t make sense at all and I never endorsed it. That doesn’t mean they didn’t believe it.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

My 10 year-old stepbrother, a Cubs fan, laughed when the Cards shipped out Ryan and named Theriot the starting SS.

He doesn’t know what UZR is or OPS. He just has his eyes and a 10 year-old’s knowledge of baseball and he laughed at the notion of replacing Ryan with Theriot. This leads me to believe that the Cardinals could not have reasonably believed Theriot was any sort of upgrade on the field.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

You would think so wouldn't you?

But the fact is there were many shortstops that they could’ve gotten besides Theriot that would have been better..they just chose him for some ungodly reason.

Are you honestly suggesting that the team intentionally sabotaged SS for some reason?

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they idiotically bought too much into the "clubhouse chemistry" stuff.

TLR wanted Ryan out of the clubhouse, as did some veterans. So, they shipped him out and brought in a good clubhouse guy who also happens to be a shitty baseball player. Thankfully, they corrected the problem with Furcal. I believe the Furcal trade was more a catalyst for the postseason run than the Rasmus trade.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

So they knowingly spent

more on Theriot…knowing he was going to be a horrendous player, just because he had a good personality? I don’t think so.

Like I said, they were extremely stupid in how they addressed the situation…but I do think that they thought, for some reason, that Theriot was a better player. Why? I have no clue. Everyone in the entire baseball universe knows that Ryan Theriot is a shitty player. If they wanted to get rid of Boog due to his down year and annoying personality, I totally get that…Why on earth anyone would ever mistake Theriot as a starting SS is beyond me. But if they didn’t believe it, they would’ve just gotten someone else instead of paying Theriot $3.3 million

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was TLR forcing a trade and choosing the replacement.

Because I think TLR’s assessment of talent can be way off, particularly in the MIF.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you serious...

What did he say? Get me Theriot or I’ll have you fired? That’s BS…Mo should’ve known better know matter how it came about.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I think Mozeliak is complicit in that trade.

Their combined idiocy regarding shortstop last season very nearly torpedoed the entire season. Thank God Furcal was available via trade to correct their mistake. To this day, I cannot for the life of me fathom how Schumaker wasn’t shipped out or replaced. He was the weak link in the MIF, not Ryan. But, whatever. Good Lord willing, Schumaker will never play infield again.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

i think Carp was the driving force ....

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

You think the pitcher who asked to have Ryan as the starting shortstop for every one of his starts ran him out of town?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

hell if I know...

just referring to the dressing down he gave Ryan mid season for screwing around with no glove…

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I've never agreed with the characterization of that interaction as a "dressing down."

To me, it looked pretty calm, especially given Carpenter’s typical antics when upset.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Sometimes an ass-chewing can be productive.

Somehow that point has been lost on a lot of people.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

except for the fact that the combination of moves we made led to a world series title

Theriot might not have been the answer, but they had also concluded that Ryan wasn’t the answer. The theriot meme is the easy way to say we shouldn’t have traded Boog. But the end result was Furcal and a title so I’m quite happy with the decision.

Just win

by The Duke on Feb 25, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

toaster + dick equals marrying hot paramedic.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Feb 25, 2012 2:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

If this is the only thing I ever contribute to the world,

I will consider it a life well lived.

Who'd want to be a man of the people when there's people like you?

by the red baron on Feb 25, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

there are a lot of boog and rasmus apologists on this board

boog clearly didn’t mesh with team and had a crappy year to boot. They tolerated the strange personality when he hit and got rid of him when he stopped hitting. It wasn’t personal. His negatives outweighed his positives.

They went a different direction (theriot), changed direction again with Furcal when it proved that Theriot was worse than they thought he would be defensively and everything worked out in the end. That’s what actually happened as opposed to this myth that Don Tony was trying to steer the ship into an iceberg.

If you want to argue that Theriot wasn’t the best choice at the time, fine, that’s a fair argument.

Just win

by The Duke on Feb 25, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree that Ryan's negatives outweighed his positives.

I also think that bringing in Theriot was idiotic.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Has anyone ever disagreed that bringing in Theriot was idiotic?

I feel like you are arguing a point that everyone already knows. It’s one thing that VEB completely and totally agrees on.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It's inextricably intertwined with the Ryan trade.

If you are for trading Ryan, then you are for Ryan Theriot, starting shortstop. To pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest. The Cardinals traded for Theriot, named him the starting shortstop, and then traded Ryan to Seattle. That’s the chronology of events.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

What the fuck?

This is poor logic. Just because one was for trading Brendan Ryan (which by the way I wasn’t), doesn’t mean you are for Ryan Theriot. You can just as easily be for Ryan Theriot playing 2nd or riding the bench and getting someone else to play SS (This is what we begged for and finally got)…You are trying to make an argument where one doesn’t exist.

NO ONE EVER WANTED RYAN THERIOT….except Mo & Tony or just Mo.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Poor logic. I can be for one move and not for another move that an organization makes.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

But, if one trade is based on another trade, how can you defense one and criticize the other?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That's true.

But the Ryan trade does not happen without the Theriot trade happening first. Without Theriot, there is no shortstop on the 40-man other than Kozma.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand your thinking

I just think that the logic behind your notion that you have to be pro-both moves or anti-both moves is flawed.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

One doesn't happen without the other.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

again...

with the wording error – “trade for theriot”, stlfan…it was a trade

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I would disagree with this.

Brendan had not been traded at the time of the Theriot trade. Indeed, at the time of the Theriot trade I had thought (hoped) that Theriot was brought in to be the 2B, which I was okay with at the time.

Also, even if someone were for trading Ryan, they could have wanted someone else for SS rather than Theriot.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 25, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the chronology:

1) Trade for Theriot
2) Mozeliak names Theriot starting SS
3) Ryan is traded

The Theriot trade was the precursor for the Ryan trade.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That timeline is true

I still don’t see the inert correlation between being pro-Brendan Ryan trade and pro-Theriot signing.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The trade of Ryan did not happen in a vacuum.

We did not sign Theriot. We traded Hawksworth for Theriot. Shortly thereafter, Mozeliak named Theriot the starting shortstop. Then, after naming Theriot the starting shortstop, the club traded Ryan. Do you honestly believe Ryan would have been traded without the club acquiring Theriot? I don’t.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. Still does not mean

What you said earlier – that if you were for trading Brendan, you were for Theriot being the starting SS. One could very easily be for trading Brendan, and not for making Theriot the starting SS. Clearly, that is not “intellectually dishonest.”

by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 25, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree,

given the purpose was “replacing Brendan” not “inserting Theriot”. They could have replaced Brendan with any SS, instead they replaced him with a 2B (because Mo was trying to appease TLR while spending the least amount of prospects because he disagreed with the situation…. that is the only reason I can think of). Replacing him with a 2B is indefensible. Simply the idea of replacing him can be formed into an argument, its just hard to make a good one.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the Ryan trade was far worse than the Rasmus trade FWIW.

I was kinda OK with dealing Rasmus and I think the haul wasn’t too bad, either at the time (see my fanpost) or in retrospect (now we’ve got Rzep for 3 more years and two draft picks out of it), but getting rid of Ryan when they did was nothing sort of stupid (and I kinda like Cleto, but dealing away an average shortstop when you’ve got no-one to replace him is clearly dumb).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 25, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

It still amazes me

that even with a .639 OPS in 2011, and an OPS+ of only 83, that Ryan led the non-pitching Mariners in bWAR with 2.8 (second in fWAR to Ackley, 2.7 vs. 2.6).

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 25, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

you could argue that both sides were at fault

and, in all honesty, that’s true. TLR didn’t like that colby was working with his dad and refused to do things his way, and colby felt a lot of pressure from TLR and others. given that colby was going to do things his way and TLR is a “my way or the highway” kind of manager (as we saw with rolen in the past), you knew the whole thing wasn’t going to end well.

now colby will be remembered by cards fans as the guy we traded for, essentially, a world series title. when the trade was made, i don’t think anybody figured that the trade was going to be a key for us to get to the series, just that it was a way to get rid of colby and make both sides happy. how everything went down then is a shame, and how colby is still whining about it now really is a shame. colby needs to move on from that and enjoy his time in toronto. we’ve dealt with that in the past and it needs to stay there.

twitter

by zoomzoomj88 on Feb 25, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rasmus and recent Pujols quotes are interesting

Do players talk with such intensity about their former clubs when the former club is not St. Louis? It does seem that playing in St. Louis (or maybe playing for La Russa) is viewed as a defining moment by players themselves. I seem to remember that the 70s and 80s Yankees under Martin/Lemon and Steinbrenner forged that same type of response.

As for Colby, yes he is immature, what is amazing to me is how much he still sounds like a AAA player who hasn’t been in the majors. Has he not learned anything about how to talk to the media? How can he have played two full seasons in the majors and still interact with the press like this?

I’m glad we won the WS because we’ll never be able to say that trade wasn’t worth losing Rasmus. But the fact that he is still so immature tells me that he still has some upside if he fixes the mental side of his game. I thought Colby had already peaked, but I suspect if he can pull his head together — he can still be a force.

Just win

by The Duke on Feb 25, 2012 9:36 AM EST reply actions  

Has he not learned anything about how to talk to the media? How can he have played two full seasons in the majors and still interact with the press like this?

Uh, maybe because he’s not very bright?

I read somewhere (and wish I could find the source) that the best athletes tend to be people of slightly above average intelligence. Too smart, and they spend all their time questioning, rather than learning and doing. Too dumb, and they never learn to do.

I think there is every chance Raz is in the latter category. It shows up in the way he played, in the way he handled himself with TLR and teammates, and the way he interviews. Fill in some of the ellipsis in that interview with things a high-school dropout from Alabama (note: Raz didn’t drop out to my knowledge) might say and see if they don’t make narrative sense. It isn’t just immaturity.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 25, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not totally buying into this premise, but I won't deny the possibility of it being correct

Along with Colby’s slightly less than stellar intelligence, we also have to think about something else:Tony’s law degree. If VEB has taught me anything, it’s that lawyers can sometimes can be arrogant, know it all, pricks.

SACRIFICE THE MOTH!

by mattyfrommo on Feb 25, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Nuke LaLoosh would like a word with you

"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache

by peppermartin on Feb 25, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I might just agree with that

Rasmus, to me, has seemed for some time to be his own worst enemy. And that doesn’t necessaily absolve TLR.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 25, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Gordon's article picked up the bit about Tony Rasmus

Colby tosses his dad under the bus for good measure, too. I wouldn’t be surprised if he performs better without the power-struggle for his soul going on between the Tony’s. But this guy is always going to be a head-case to a certain extent. I don’t know what his true potential is, but I can’t imagine he ever fully realizes it. It will always be something with him.

by jeftzuck on Feb 25, 2012 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

I fixed the links before reading the comments. . .

now I want to go mangle them again.

Clearly this is not a thread I can participate in. Have a good Saturday everyone.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Feb 25, 2012 10:58 AM EST reply actions  

because i feel that this place needs a bit of humour today

i may have accidentally fallen in a pond whilst taking my afternoon run.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Feb 25, 2012 11:02 AM EST reply actions  

Let us know when you're certain.

Because that would be hilarious. If it happened.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

What a powerfully English thing to say.

Did you fall in said pond while running beside a hedge, by any chance?

Who'd want to be a man of the people when there's people like you?

by the red baron on Feb 25, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

probably a shrubbery

"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache

by peppermartin on Feb 25, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

is "pond" not a common term in America?

or “hedge”? What do you call a hedge?

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 25, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

we call ponds trashholes

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

picture of wet shoes or it didn't happen

"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache

by peppermartin on Feb 25, 2012 11:24 AM EST reply actions  

they don't look wet

but they stink of goose

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Feb 25, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I hate geese.

Twice a year, there’s literally a goose shitstorm in the park that I run in. Filthy fucking animals.

"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache

by peppermartin on Feb 25, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, I remember this guy...
Houston Astros
Signed: RHP Livan Hernandez, 2B Jose Martinez

Jose Martinez grew up in the Cardinals system, meaning that new Astros GM Jeff Luhnow has a history with the 26-year-old Venezuelan. Martinez topped out with Double-A Springfield in the St. Louis system.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

Great to see

Ozzie Smith being in Cardinals camp for Spring Training is long, long overdue. This is Cardinals baseball as it should be.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think so.

He’s always been hesitant to make public appearances. He’s very much a home body. Apparently Mabry talked him into it this year.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

we all remember how that ended right ?

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

yes indeed....

the 2nd pic is a bit unnerving…

yeah I’m okay with the first.

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, as 2006

was the only trip to spring training of my life, I take personal credit for that championship. But yeah, maybe Willie helped a little.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 25, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

this made my entire day

Mizzou winning would just put it way, way over the top

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Feb 25, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I love the fact that adron chambers and jon jay

Will get instruction from willie mcgee, and ryan jackson and kolten wong will get instruction from ozzie. It’s such great continuity.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Feb 25, 2012 3:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

From behind

53-year old McGee looks like he’s ready to play some MLB. BSOHL?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 26, 2012 7:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I am following Mr. Creighton University

since my daughter is beginning to receive, in her sophomore year of high school, requests from colleges to attend their places of higher learning, including the alma mater of my user-named hero. Is he in the house yet?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 25, 2012 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

I have not seen any reports, on Twitter or otherwise, that Gibby is in camp.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

tom s., in regards to your closing statement..
tell us in the comments which player you are following most closely in spring training.

Adam Wainwright
Shelby Miller
Carlos Beltran
Zack Cox
Kolten Wong
Jordan Swagerty
Eduardo Sanchez
David Freese
Jake Westbrook

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

absolutely,

I am pulling for that kid so bad. If he could develop into any passable MI that would fill a consistently huge hole.

by RasmustheRipper on Feb 25, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

10 homers and 30 steals is certainly within reason.

I just hope he can do it without batting .200 and striking out 175 times.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

love it.

I miss stolen bases so much. That was the only way baseball was played until I was about 13 years old.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd add Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal to that list

and remove Westbrook, to keep it at ten. Possibly also add Greene and remove Swagerty.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 25, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Since

we aren’t bringing in Oswalt and Westy has dropped 20 lbs., I feel he is worth paying attention to. In fact, I’ll go ahead and change the sig and try to root for him again.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I've resigned to the idea of Westy being the 5th starter.

He’s dropped some weight, he’s in a contract year, etc. Let’s hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache

by peppermartin on Feb 25, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

So am I, but that doesn't mean I'll be watching him with interest.

His possible replacements, yes.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 25, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Westbrook is really a more compelling spring training story

than Furcal, Berkman, or Yadi. I’m interested in what all of those guys do, but the rest of your list is much more intriguing to me.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

So Vienna is pretty awesome, VEB

Has anyone been to Istanbul? I am probably going there this week. Anyone know of things to do?

SIGN ROYO

by Notorious PSC on Feb 25, 2012 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

No, but I'm very jealous.

I’ve heard both Vienna and Istanbul are wonderful.

by peach concrete on Feb 25, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm studying in Vienna until July

and am also trying to get into a program in Brussels that starts almost immediately after the semester here ends, and am applying for a grant or two because this shit is expensive.

SIGN ROYO

by Notorious PSC on Feb 25, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I did not know that.

They did Malcolm in the Middle, of course.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

They also wrote the music for The Mickey Mouse Clubhouse

Depending on whether you have kids this makes them even cooler or corporate sell-out whores.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Feb 25, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I con honestly say it's not a bad show

For the genre of young kids’ programming it falls into it’s quite good. It’s a lot like Dora The Explorer, in that it ostensibly tries to be a little educational in very basic ways while riding the popularity of the franchise cartoon characters. Except Dora is awful for anyone who is older than four, while MMC seems as if its creators actually have souls.

So yeah, I have some strong opinions about this stuff.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Feb 25, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the Disney magic...

…conning convincing you of that.

(says the Disney fanboy)

It's Spring Again!

by TBender on Feb 25, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

But seriously, I think the makers of the Mickey Mouse show actually care about the plight of innocent bystanders. The makers of the Dora show know that most kids that young can’t tell the difference (and furthermore many parents are apparently such riveting “educational” content as saying “hola” and “bueno” a couple times per episode) so they don’t bother making a show that isn’t mind-numbing.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Feb 25, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

"Hot dogs!" was the first thing Mickey Mouse actually said outloud in a cartoon

He runs a hot dog stand in Karnival Kid. It was the first Mickey Mouse cartoon where he had actual lines containing words.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Feb 25, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I did not know that.

So that’s why the end theme is “Hot Dog!”

Disney is freakin’ known for pulling that kind of stuff. The National Treasure plots and gimmicks are probably based on Walt’s actual life.

It's Spring Again!

by TBender on Feb 25, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, though, Istanbul seems like a fascinating place to visit.

I don’t know what the current climate is there re: visiting Americans.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, I'm getting advice from friends who have been there and a few Turkic people my friends and I have met

I speak fluent German and my friends know some Polish, and Spanish but no Turkish. A buddy of mine spent a week there last semester and he speaks Arabic so I’m getting advice wherever I can. It’s more likely that I’ll be seen as a European anyway.

SIGN ROYO

by Notorious PSC on Feb 25, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

only German I know...

Do , Do Hast Do Hast Mish. Do hast mish laphroig Do has mish laphroig….

sure I’m butchering the spellling…

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

go to the hagia sophia!

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Feb 25, 2012 3:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

as well as the many other (earlier) Roman sites and ruins

scattered throughout the city. Just google for a good list of them.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Feb 25, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Right, I think we're planning on staying the whole week

I want to spend at least an afternoon seeing all of the old Roman/Byzantine/Ottoman sites.

SIGN ROYO

by Notorious PSC on Feb 25, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Just stick to the first two

what interest do you have in seeing a bunch of old footstools?

Ha. Ha.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Feb 25, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm really pumped to see the city

the most recent Assassin’s Creed is set in 16th Century Constantinople and I’ve loved the series because of the historical setting/all the monuments. Hopefully it works out and the weather is nice

SIGN ROYO

by Notorious PSC on Feb 25, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

hey! something i've done!

Hagia Sophia, the Blue Mosque, the palace, the cistern, the Grand Bazaar. also took a cruise in the Bosporus Strait, which was fun. click the links and read interesting things!

be prepared from some culture shock. people were absurdly friendly, to the point where it seemed really sketchy. i don’t think there’s anything sinister about the way they act toward tourists, it just seemed a cultural norm. i will admit i felt a little uncomfortable at times. vendors and random pedestrians would come up and propose to the girls in my group on the street because of "how beautiful" they were…

the other cultural distinctive is islam. the call to prayer happened frequently, five times a day, and it’s absolutely impossible not to notice. the mosques stagger their calls so that it continuously happens for several minutes. here’s a video of what it sounds like if you haven’t heard it before. I think the adhan is gorgeous.

if you’re not sick of kebabs already, get some in istanbul. they’re first class.

all in all, i loved istanbul. it’s beautiful and there are a ton of things to do there. if you’re of the partying persuasion, that all happens on the asian side in a district called the golden mile. dress to the nines and be prepared to buy off the bouncer to get in.

give me arabica or give me death -- spants

by il rosso on Feb 25, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Istanbul is OK.

Kinda ubiquitous, but you need to go to the Hagia Sofia & Blue Mosque. The other thing nearby I’d recommend you check out, briefly, especially if you’re a Bond fan, is the Basilica Cistern. It’s an underground water store from Roman times, but worth a look around for 20 mins or so, especially as it featured in From Russia with Love.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 25, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Find a French girl to walk around Vienna with for one night

then make a plan to see her again in Vienna in 6 months, and wind up going back, only to find that she’s not there. Write a book about it 10 years later, and go to Paris for a book-signing, run into her, and spend the day reminiscing.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 26, 2012 7:51 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

this

"We're here to defend a championship." - Pumastache

by peppermartin on Feb 26, 2012 8:26 AM EST up reply actions  

A Strauss comment I like...
Joestrauss: Wizard working with Zack Cox on Field 1. McGee talking baserunning in outfield.

Does the Wiz know how to handle Cox? With a nickname like that I would think so…

If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!

by Red Blazer on Feb 25, 2012 2:32 PM EST reply actions  

Talking baserunning

while standing nowhere near bases is just so Willie McGee.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Feb 25, 2012 6:00 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

They wouldn't even have a playoff spot in the Western Conference.

They are only in first because they’ve played 4 more games than 2nd place Florida, who is only 1 point behind them.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

The NHL doesn't need to...

You don’t get into the playoffs based on how good you are after 63 games played.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree to a certain extent

That’s all I look at in the middle of the season. When you get closer to the end of a season, however, I look at points, because points that are possible are not yet earned by the club.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, damn.

I go away to get some work done and the game goes to hell.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 3:54 PM EST reply actions  

Blues need another finisher badly.

I’d like Ray Whitney. But that’s not likely. Outshot the Jets 41-16.

by openside on Feb 25, 2012 4:35 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

My biggest problem with the late 80s

is that no one appropriately paused for the comma when they talked about Murder, She Wrote.

by openside on Feb 25, 2012 4:54 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Mine with the early 2000s was

that almost every one pronounced the Hanks film Cast Away as though it were a one-word noun rather than a verb-adverb combination.

"Sometimes we're not good enough, but our hearts are always good enough" -- Tony La Russa

by vico on Feb 25, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, this cheap wine commercial

is one of the most awkward things on television right now.

Retire #52!

by The Continental on Feb 25, 2012 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

Richie Weeks vs. Chase Utley

Readers of VEB, which second baseman would you rather have for the 2012 season only? ZIPS projects both of these players to be at a 116 OPS+.

Weeks’ projected line in MIL
.260/.350/.460 – 24 doubles, 3 triples, 20 homers, 10-3 SB/CS

Utley’s projected line in PHI
.265/.362/.448 – 23 doubles, 5 triples, 17 homers, 15-1 SB/CS

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 5:35 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry - meant to add

Not necessarily for the Cardinals…just in general.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I love Chase Utley.

If he stays healthy I think he’ll dwarf those numbers. If Weeks stays healthy he might be a little better than the projection in a best case scenario.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 25, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

assuming this is fantasy baseball

Utley

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 25, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Just a question.

For one year, who would you rather have.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Utley for fantasy baseball

Weeks for any other form of baseball.

Weeks’ poor batting average (and the fact that he leads off for an NL team) makes him less valuable in standard roto baseball

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Feb 25, 2012 6:04 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

both have substantial health issues.

Have they said whether weeks will start the season on the DL?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Feb 25, 2012 9:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Utley

he’s a much better defender.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Melky Cabrera (OAK) vs. Adam Jones (BAL)

Readers of VEB, which center fielder would you rather have for the 2012 season only? ZIPS projects both of these players to be at a 106 OPS+.

Cabrera’s projected line in OAK
.284/.330/.435 – 36 doubles, 5 triples, 13 homers, 15-6 SB/CS

Jones’ projected line in BAL
.278/.322/.447 – 27 doubles, 4 triples, 22 homers, 11-5 SB/CS

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 5:48 PM EST reply actions  

Jon Jay

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Feb 25, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I almost did Jon Jay vs. Yeonis Cespedes

Just because ZIPS has them both at a 101 OPS+ (IIRC).

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither

Although Adam Jones would seem to be primed for a breakout year for a team that will score a lot of runs.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Feb 25, 2012 6:06 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Yadi

any new yadi extenstion tid bits?

Rzepczynski tough name to say, tough sinker to hit-Lance Berkman

by punchinjudy on Feb 25, 2012 7:40 PM EST reply actions  

A key to the LaRussa /Colby relationship is to look at the 2005 draft class.

2005 was Luhnow’s first draft class. Notice some other players names who haven’t fared well playing for LaRussa?

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Feb 25, 2012 8:34 PM EST reply actions  

i was waiting for the

Reyes thing to happen in this thread..

Rzepczynski tough name to say, tough sinker to hit-Lance Berkman

by punchinjudy on Feb 25, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

How have they played?

Garcia has pitched 70 games and is a legit #3 starter.

Rasmus played 385 games as Cardinal and then was traded for pieces to win our 11th WS.

Greene has been worth 0.6 bWAR in 150 games, with an OPS worse than Theriot last year.

Bryan Anderson hasn’t had a chance because of a perceived inability to catch pitchers – kinda important.

Mitchell Boggs has been worth -0.4 bWAR in 136 appearances.

Stav has been horrible.

Two others got traded.

Nobody else has made the majors.

23 other players drafted by Luhnow since 2006 have made the majors for one team or another.

by stlfan on Feb 25, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Watch the ankles!!!!!

2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please

by VolsnCards5 on Feb 25, 2012 9:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I like the look of

of diabolical pleasure on Matheny’s face. Is this the colliding-behind-3rd drill?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 25, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It's the 4 year old T-ball fielding drill.

There are a couple more of them coming from the other side, and they all end in a pile. I bet Holliday is the one who cries when he doesn’t get the ball.

Trust me, I’ve seen it twice in the last two days.

It's Spring Again!

by TBender on Feb 25, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Holliday: Spock! Spooock!

Freese: No Matt, you’ll flood the whole compartment!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Feb 25, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Odd note just popped up on Twitter...

David Malamut is a Midwest League historian. And here’s his info on the MWL Springfield IL franchise.

Check out those attendance figures. The drop in 1993 was due to the announcement of the STL franchise moving.

It's Spring Again!

by TBender on Feb 25, 2012 9:50 PM EST reply actions  

I read enough of it to confirm that it agrees with my theory

except I would flip factors 1 and 2. Namely, refusing to go to left field on outside pitches was the main piston for Colby’s overall plate trouble, ultimately affecting his babip by not keeping the defense honest
re the other factor, I would quibble with the phrase Rasmus “was fooled” by change-ups on the outside corner; it was more he didn’t want to hit such a pitch and let most of them go, only to get, at times awfully and unfairly, hosed by umpiring crews which clearly did not LIKE the Colb.

by the Tewk on Feb 26, 2012 3:25 AM EST up reply actions  

i recall last year TLR was interviewed in ST and quoted as saying colby needed to take better at bats with a 2 strike count

he showed more discipline early on and and had better hit, walk, and K rates. then about a month into the season, talk of his dad interfering and his K and out rates went to shit. My suspicion was his dad was telling him you need to be hitting more hr now to be a top player and HoF’er at the end of your career, and not worrying about the “good at bat bullshit”

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 26, 2012 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

WTF does SC still show Albert crossing the plate in Game 6 when they open the show?

show Freeze hitting the ball already! Albert’s not a Cardinal anymore you jerks!

Helloooo,,,, Newman

by gdm426 on Feb 26, 2012 1:01 AM EST reply actions  

ONE STRIKE BETWEEN HIM AND A TEXAS CHAMPIONSHIP

THERE IS NO BIGGER HERO IN MODERN PROFESSIONAL SPORTS YOU IDIOTS.

(HE IS ALSO FROM ST. LOUIS I THINK I NEGLECTED TO MENTION THAT)

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Feb 26, 2012 2:02 AM EST up reply actions  

after already being down 9-7 in the 9th with 2 outs dagnabit!

with a former texas hero tying the game in the 10th! Pull your fucking heads out c———ers! (i’ve been marathoning deadwood)

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Feb 26, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Glad to see Langosh isnt awful

new reporter is not a MR F

yeah, well, that's just like, my opinion, man

by sociopath on Feb 26, 2012 4:26 AM EST reply actions  

whoa.

I’ve read the thread. i think i need to take a shower.

Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here

by a fink on Feb 26, 2012 7:31 AM EST via Android app reply actions  

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