St. Louis Cardinals Spring Training storyline updates
by DanUpBaby on Feb 23, 2012 8:01 AM EST
in St. Louis Cardinals News
Email
PrintThis probably isn't going to catch on as a Rite of Spring unless everybody else in the world suddenly spends most of his time in the SB Nation CMS, but now that weird Spring Training shots are populating the photo browser I feel like we have truly reached the edges of baseball season, where I don't have to look at the same pictures of Josh Hamilton, Albert Pujols at Winter Warmup, and some lost, lonely member of the Arizona Cardinals any more. Things are happening! Koyie Hill is gesturing in fear of the Glorious Sun King Aten to Yadier Molina and Bryan Anderson!
It strikes me as the right time for an Official Narrative Update, since none of the stragglers is strong enough to support a post on its own. Onward:
1. The Albert Pujols Billboard Thing is hopefully over, now that he's reiterated his discomfort with the name in the wake of the billboards that popped up around Los Angeles. I hope this signals the end of the Pujols The Jerk era, but for a while now I've noticed the frustrating tendency of some Cardinals fans to view everything he does, now, within the rapidly constructed framework of Albert Pujols being a Secret Jerk who, freed from his role as the new Stan Musial, is now showing his true colors as a disrespectful, two-faced mercenary, and I'm not sure the refutation of the clearest evidence for that point of view is enough to knock it out entirely. Come May I'm sure talk radio will be filled with people convinced that Pujols's tendency to ground into double plays is a sign of his incredble selfishness.
In our defense this isn't as coordinated a campaign, so far as I can tell, as the one, say, that turned Manny Ramirez from a lovable ditz into an oblivious jackass within minutes of his exit from Boston. But I guess this is just the trailing edge of an impulse I've indulged as much as anyone else—the one that allows us to read personal virtues for the corresponding, figurative baseball ones. A player who pitches smartly, like Greg Maddux, has to be smart; a guy who looks like he's working hard must work harder than a player who doesn't; a player who does everything right, like Albert Pujols, does everything right.
Probably there's some truth to the new depiction of Albert Pujols as a prickly, unpleasant over-competitor, but I don't want to blame him for our old hagiographic portrait or overcompensate on reporting his flaws in its absence, because we were responsible for it in the first place, and the entertainment we derived from it was real and valuable, even if it's gone now.
2. Here and at SB Nation St. Louis we've unwittingly carpet-bombed the internet with backup catcher coverage, and though I wrote neither piece I feel like my own weird compulsion to overthink a race for the least important spot on the 25-man roster is somehow to blame. Speaking of which: Let's overthink Jenifer Langosch's mothership post about veterans and prospects mingling more frequently in the Mike Matheny Era as it relates to backup catchers!
This idea of pairing the most experienced with the youngsters was proposed by Matheny and immediately embraced by the veterans.
"Not every organization has guys that want to buy into that," Matheny said. "I think they see the bigger picture that we have the opportunity to influence this organization for years to come. And if we put some of these kids out there on Field Z near Egypt, there's not going to be much of a chance to see how these guys go about things on a daily basis."
If Matheny's truly pushing for a more egalitarian mixture—in spring and, presumably, summer—it might augur well for Bryan Anderson's chances. His (and Langosch's) formulation of the new routines reminded me immediately of Rick Hummel's great Anderson profile from last week, in which Anderson's biggest problem seemed to be his ability to earn the trust of veteran management and players.
Meanwhile, it seems as though Koyie Hill is going to at least be talked up as an actual contender in the Cardinals' backup catcher derby—which, okay, I guess. Sometimes it's hard to remember that, before he was a terrible hitter for several years as the Cubs' backup, he was a borderline Ken Phelps All-Star in the minors, hitting well in a way that has stubbornly resisted major league relevance.
3. If any Spring Training storyline is equipped to compete with The Best Shape Of Your Life for sheer ubiquity it has to be the idea that this is the year in which the Cardinals will go speeding around the bases and manufacturing runs instead of, I don't know, playing beer-league softball with their shirts untucked.
Since the Cardinals' base-thieving imports are also their most injury-prone starters, the onus for providing Whiteyball flashbacks to fans who never really cottoned to Tony La Russa over the 16 years he was in town would appear to fall almost entirely on Tyler Greene. I don't discount the potential for a team-wide baserunning renaissance entirely, just because of those years in which everybody on the Phillies suddenly became Carlos Beltran, but it's hard to see this as a Spring Training storyline, or a matter of more and better instruction from Cardinals alums, considering how much access to Lou Brock the team has had over the last 20 immobile years.
841 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
And I was just minding my own business in the Wrigley clubhouse
when a 500 lb. piece of concrete fell from the ceiling. Fortunately, Dusty Baker kept JT Snow around for just such occasions and saved my ass.
#givelancechants
by Brian_K on Feb 23, 2012 8:19 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
was Dave Matthews Band performing?
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Anyone else concerned that this ST baserunning storyline is going to turn into a regular season CS storyline?
I mean, I’m all for the speedy guys going after a few more SBs, but this team isn’t the most fleet of foot.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
Matheney did say that if guys claim they have speed they have to show it
and you have to play they hand your dealt, you can’t just turn guys loose if they don’t have the speed, only some guys will be able to run, etc. etc.
This is comforting, actually.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
Only if you secretly have doubts about Tyler Greene...
(It’s a typical spring storyline, like Matheny and staff talking about bunting more or better. Those who can run, will.)
In the last 3 season
Yadi has had 21SB and 12CS. I’d say if Yadi can succeed 2/3 of the time, plenty of other guys should be able to as well.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Isn't the cut off for productivity like 70-75% though?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
If Yadi is at 66%, pretty much everyone else on the team should be able to make 70 - 75%.
My point is that they will pick their spots. They won’t just run every single time they are up there. We only had one guy last year with double digits. I’m not asking for 5 guys with 20+ steals. The bar is set pretty low so they should be able to improve.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
of course
Yadi is also likely to have the deepest familiarity with the timing of pitchers’ mechanics. Not everyone is going to be able to spot opportunities to steal as well as the guy who has to think about timing and base stealing on defense all the time.
Good point.
Perhaps Matheny is using his knowledge of pitchers’ mechanics to help them steal more effectively.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Good point, but
Yadi is as slow as they come. There really is no acceptable response I could get from my players if Yadier Molina ever stole a base off us.
He’s painfully slow and every single base he ever stole was off of a pitcher who was payin’ him no mind to an extreme.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
yep
I used to think Matheny was so slow. Then they brought up Yadi. Matheny didn’t look that slow anymore.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Yea, I think there's room for them to steal a few bags and do it efficiently.
And I hope that’s the case of course, I just have concerns regarding how it’ll turn out. We haven’t seen Matheny manage yet, after all. I’m hopeful though.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's more like two thirds
and I’m not sure those studies take into account some other, peripheral advantages of running (disrupting the pitcher, increased chances of throwing errors etc.). I’m guessing that would mean anything less than about 2/3 is not going to be profitable, though.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Those have been shown to be compensated by focus being taken from the hitter who has a better view of the whole SB thing anyway.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
not sure I quite understand that?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Hitters hit worse when their guy is trying to steal.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
The variable they're
not talking about here is TLR’s approach to base stealing. I’d like to know what he thought about it and what his rules were for the players. I agree that the team is slow and that’s the main barrier to SBs, but Tony might have been a barrier as well.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 23, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
Seemed like lots of the CSs were on busted hit and runs.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
I really hate the hit and run
much more than straight steal attempts. I’d be very happy if it’s a tactic Matheny marginalises this year.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
The hit and run in World Series Game 5 that was allegedly called by Pujols made me so angry.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I still can't believe we lost a World Series game because of a bullpen phone malfunction
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
The 3 outs given away on SAC bunts and poor situational hitting didn't help, either.
Although, to give Punto credit, his fliner was two feet from being a game-changing hit.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I was there.
It was so confusing.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Winning that world series takes all of that sting away for me
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Oddly,
I think the rule was “Albert & Yadi have the green light, everyone else has red”
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
I know Jay
isn’t as fast as he seems to be, but he ought to be able to steal a few bags. I wonder if he’s got any aptitude for it.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 23, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
61 for 84 in the minors
his last 2 seasons in triple A, he was 13/13 and 20/28….kinda ugly prior to that though.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
hmm
I’d give him the Greene Light.
by saul wright on Feb 23, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would to.
and from an “intangibles” angle, Jay seems like a pretty heady, doesn’t fall asleep, always paying attention to the nuances of the game. So, I think, if left to his own volition, he could be pretty successful stealing bases.
Then again, he doesn’t really walk much so maybe he’s not as intuitive as I give him credit for.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Intuition makes
you good at taking walks?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 23, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
No. I'm just talking about "baseball smarts"
you know, knowing how to take advantage of things in the game. Seems like working a walk is a fantastic way to take advantage of the game especially when you don’t regularly hit the ball 400 feet.
and “intuitive” was probably the wrong choice of words there.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Eh.
The only guy who projects to be really good is Tyler Greene. If you’re hoping for a renaissance he’s your DaVinci.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I think it's more like we're hoping for a pre-Renaissance or very early Renaissance, and Greene is either Giotto or Masaccio.
I just don’t see a lot of base-stealing outside of him.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Berk's got legs, what are you saying?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I'm with you on this....
With the exception of Tyler Greene, I don’t really think this team should be running any more than they did last season.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
boog is fast
and colby
oh wait…
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
by d-dee on Feb 23, 2012 12:49 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
heh,
teleporting in from the android universe for an important…. “Boog would’ve”.
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 23, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
T Greene and Beltran
have two of the highest SB% of all time in their careers. Now T Greene’s career is only a few hundred PA and Beltran’s well past his basestealing prime. But with those two and Furcal I think we could be a solid basestealing team.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
"and dominicans are all like this!"
“am i right fellas?!”
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
by Aranathor on Feb 23, 2012 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
molina could do his impression of hill hitting a homer.
Except nobody knows what that looks like.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 1:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Caption
And I was like, "Mr. Big Z sir, I’m not Michael Barrett! Don’t hit me, please!
by TBender on Feb 23, 2012 8:55 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
or
New Cardinals back-up catcher Koyie Hill, center, prepares to headbutt the last remaining candidate, Bryan Anderson, right, as Yadier Molina looks on. Not pictured, Tony Cruz, writhing on the ground.
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
by BVHeck on Feb 23, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Cut to Nancy Kerrigan performing a hubcapetchomy from her knee cap.
Hill and Harding lurking behind a nearby Airstream Trailer
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Today in Oswalt
Joe Strauss @JoeStrauss
Close friend of Oswalt said he “would not be surprised” if Roy accepted Cardinals’ terms. #Developing
by TBender on Feb 23, 2012 8:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Do you think that comment is related to today's forthcoming announcement
or is the timing just coincidence?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
It's Strauss so there is no coincidence.
He’s getting himself on the radar for when something happens.
I would not be suprised
If Joe lived in his mom’s basement. #Developing
by Hardcore Legend on Feb 23, 2012 9:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
If by developing you mean the excuse he gives to his mom when she tells him to go get a job, then #Developing
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
by hazel on Feb 23, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Continuing Oswalt
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS
it is NOT rangers or red sox for oswalt, at least not now, according to people who know. #roy
...
Possible “Wooo” later today. #developing
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
Astros, Tigers, or Cards....
Please let it be the Cards and maybe my long KMac nightmare will be over.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
No way on the Astros, surely?
That seems like a mutually dumb move.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
The question is, IF he picks a team today, who would it be?
Not, “if he picks a team later this season, who would it be then.” For instance, I see no point in him picking the Cards today. Why would he? Nothing has changed that would make the Cards a better choice – the Cards haven’t dumped salary, there’s no evidence that an offer has been raised (if made), there has been no injury to the rotation which opens a spot, etc. In other words, if he announces today, I think it’s much less likely that he picks the Cards. If he announces midseason, well, I think its more likely to be the Cards because, in the meantime, we could have had injuries to one or more starters.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
I understand your point from a purely financial POV,
but perhaps that is not the correct stance? It seems that Roy wanted “respect”……
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 23, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
ahem... to continue an otherwise legitimate point,
Roy was probably willing to push his luck as far as possible for the sake of business, but not every ballplayer wants to sit out half a season.
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 23, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
My point isn't just from a financial view at all
It seems that Roy has several criteria he’s looking for – location, winning team, money, a spot on the rotation, and maybe more.
He evidently hasn’t found an opportunity that meets his criteria. Given that, the obvious thing to do is wait until something that meets his criteria opens up. And if it doesn’t (I think it will), he won’t be any different off than he is now.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
The longer he waits, the less leverage he has
until the trade deadline, at least, at which point it can be legitimately said that he’ll need some sort of extend ST, and he’ll only earn a pro-rated season.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I disagree that the longer he waits, the less leverage he has. What's his leverage now?
The only thing that might be said is that his pro-rated salary may be less later than what he could get now for the whole season (and that’s only a guess because no one here knows what his current offers are). And this probably doesn’t mean much because total compensation doesn’t appear to be the primary or decinding factor for him.
Moreover, pitchers will get hurt in ST and a team could make a new, viable offer to him. Then he’ll still make a full salary.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
He has less leverage because
his value to teams is determined by his ability to compentently offer playing time to the teams. Missing spring training and parts of the season reduces his value. it also makes him look like he’s pointlessly holding out.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i think he gains quite a bit of leverage
when, say, number 1/2 starter for cardinals/rangers has their arm fall off
I don't know if I'd make a $5-$10M bet on that happening
If he hates all of the teams giving him offers, and he’d rather retire than play for them, but would be happy to take an offer from the Yankees or whatever, I guess that makes sense.
But holding out past the start of ST is a risk y move.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Caused by a mysterious bulldozer accident.
Sign Bubbie Buzachero!
by cardinalswsbound on Feb 23, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
I just disagree with your premise.
His ability to pitch well is not likely going to be adversely affected by missing spring training. He’s a veteran, presumably knows what to do to get himself ready to pitch, and can pitch a couple of minor league games later in the season to further get ready. I don’t think he’s losing value by waiting, except in some pro-rated salary way, which I said above wasn’t important to him to anyway.
I don’t understand your last point at all. He’s “holding out” (I don’t really know what that means in this context because he doesn’t have a contract) because he thinks he can get better offers later, after teams start suffering injuries/ineffectiveness and are looking for additional help. Since he doesn’t like any of the current offers, seems like he can’t lose.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
what minor league games is he going to pitch in if he doesn't have a team?
i think his best strategy would be the lohse ‘08 one and to go pitch to college students or maybe in an indy league. but i don’t know if that’s going to prepare him in the same way that facing AAA hitters will
No, I mean that after he signs, he'll do some pitching for that team in the minors before he pitches in the majors.
Just like Clemens and Pedro did when they pulled this act.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
my last point is that
if you’re making a move that mkeas it look like you’re not negotiating in good faith, like holding out solely to get leverage, it makes the other side of the table less willing to talk to you.
As far as ST, a guy coming off of injury probably could use a few ST games to prove that his arm is decent, rather than jumping in mid-season. If he wants to get a home game-only deal with an independent league team or something to keep his arm in shape, that makes sense, ,and solves that problem.
I just don’t see how holding out will make him more attractive to teams, other than maybe he wants to guarantee that he pitches in the postseason.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
We may be overlooking the fact that the Rangers and Cardinals might like this idea.
Both teams could use the extra insurance out there and probably would want a rested Oswalt, given the fact that they both have acceptable options and that they are both expecting to be in the playoffs (they probably think there will be a better chance this way that he will be giving an optimal October performance).
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 24, 2012 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
Heyman has "people who know" telling him which teams Oswalt will NOT choose but not which team he will choose?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Heyman's still researching whether there are teams in St. Louis or Houston
He can’t find mention of them in the American League.
That would make sense if his sources were in those two orgs...
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
That's a good point.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If there's an announcement, I bet it's not to pick a team, but...
To say that Oswalt is going to keep working out and will look for a team mid-season.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I see that Estes has reported an announcement will come today.
And that Heyman agrees with you. Oswalt will likely either announce more waiting or his retirement.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah, nothing has changed so why would he pick a team now?
Better to wait until injuries hit in ST or wait until midseason and a contender has a need for him. It just doesn’t make much sense for him to pick a team right now, so I’m guessing he won’t.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
Surely no way he retires
still pretty good, and he could still easily play for a contender if he’s willing to take a pay cut. Plus, the guy is two good, healthy seasons away from getting into the HOF discussion. I’m not sure why you’d retire in that situation.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
close friend = lance berkman?
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
I think we get him.....
And I’m glad. I think he has enough left in the tank to help us out this year.
Masterstroke
If we pick up Oswalt, I will count this a masterful negotiation by Mozeliak.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
"close friend"
Some friend, huh
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 23, 2012 9:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
For the last time Joe,
you are not a close friend of Oswalt!
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
as always, thanks for the non-news, Strauss
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I have said it elsewhere and I will say it here
second only to the 10 years of excellence with 3 WS appearances and two trophies, the best thng Albert Pujols ever did for the city of St Louis was to turn down the opportunity to cripple any chance this team has to compete in the late twenty teens.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by TomCat009 on Feb 23, 2012 9:07 AM EST reply actions 13 recs
That's a satisfying way
to look at it, I think I’ll adopt that myself. A rec for you sir!
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 23, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
This is exactly right
It wouldn’t have been impossible to compete if we had kept him, but the margin for error/ability to overcome injuries, down years and decline (his and others) would have been significantly diminished.
I am grateful for the time we had with him, but the advantage of having that kind of player at half price (or less) was over. Period. Paying top dollar for him could not possibly result in him generating equal surplus value to the franchise as he had during the last 11 years. There just isn’t any way around that particularly unsettling fact.
I was confused why TomCat was replying to himself. . .
/very similar avatars
//yes, I notice these things
///no, I can’t help it
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
You gotta blur your eyes, man
... like the back of a Volkswagen?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
i love your sig.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Thanks
It was either that one or “You know there’s nothing to steal from my mom and Craig.”
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
I presume you’ve seen this, then.
Sign Bubbie Buzachero!
by cardinalswsbound on Feb 23, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but...
I’ve kind of lost interesting in Wes Anderson films starting with “Life Acquatic.” I think the films written with Owen Wilson were much funnier and less of a set-piece. Anderson minus Wilson is much more detail-oriented and winking at things for comedic effect. And that’s fine, but I much prefer the laugh-out-loud moments from Bottle Rocket and Rushmore to the “ha, that’s funny. I see what he did there”.
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
Exactly.
I’m not sure Pujols is worth $30m/yr NOW. The idea that any club thinks he’ll be worth that aged 40 is unbelievable.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure they figured they were getting surplus value now assuming he's worth 35 mil or slightly above
That could make the total value ok. Also maybe (baseball contract only) inflation or a trade could help them later
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 1:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
excellent analysis
He could have challenged Stan Musial’s preeminence in St. Louis had he stayed, but at the risk of a decline phase that would have burdened the team.
Now that the “el hombre” thing has been cleared up, I wish him the best in the AL West. And when we meet the Angels in the WS, I’ll be happy to see him.
Yeah anyone who watched Todd Helton through age 30 would have thought a big Contract was
a great idea he had a 340/.434/.620 line averaging 35 HR and 47 2Bs like clock work. He had just completed his 4th out of 5 seasons with a 160 OPS+.
In 05 he hurt his back and while his .303/.409/.468 since then has been pretty damn good he is no longer transcendant.
While Helton was not Pujols he was a top flight hitter signed to a 9/141 deal that crowded out the chance to Ink Matt Holliday to a market value extension. That Pujols will be making 9 million+ a year more than Helton tells you how handicapped the Birds would have been in trying to extend Yadi, Waino, or maybe even Shelby Miller if he reaches his ceiling.
I know that a Miller FA is a long ways away, but try to remember that 10 years ago Darrl Kile and Matt Morris combined for 10 WAR for the birds.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
If Helton was on the Pujols contract he would be owed over 100 million still.
about the cost of signing Jose Reyes this year.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
He could have challenged Stan Musial’s preeminence in St. Louis had he stayed, but at the risk of a decline phase that would have burdened the team.
Or he could, y’know, have just signed for 8 years at >$20m/yr. Poverty wages, obviously.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
It's not about the money...
it’s about respect.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Commitment is Pujols's euphemism, right?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It's easy to turn down an extra 90 million when it's not being offered to you.
I don’t blame Albert for taking that deal, and I don’t blame the Cards for not offering it.
"We will see you....Tomorrow Night"
from a dollar standpoint, yes.
From everything else that goes with it (legacy being a major one here) might make that decision a little tougher.
Let’s face it. The Cardinals were offering Pujols a ton of money and the ability to continue to build on his legacy in a way that was the most accommodating possible.
He chose the deal that is much more difficult setting (re-establishing himself in a market that doesn’t exactly fawn over athletes, doing so with the lesser team in the area in terms of fan and city interest, with manufactured “respect”).
By choosing the money, Albert became less of a legend and more of a bought piece. I can’t think of anyone who has taken this road, that it’s worked out for like it would have worked out for him in St. Louis.
And it doesn’t even give him a better opportunity to go to or win a World Series. So, that excuse (not that he’s given it), is not valid.
Either way. I hope he’s happy. I just don’t care to ever see him in Busch Stadium wearing anything other than an Angles uniform now. No red jackets. No hanging out with Gibson, Stan, Red, Ozzie, Lou, et al. He had that opportunity and he chose not to take it.
I’m fine with that. Is he fine with it? Possibly. Will he be fine with it 10, 15 years down the road? I don’t know, but it’s not something I’ll lose any sleep over.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
I agree with you to a point..
His legacy as a Cardinal is definitely tarnished. His legacy as one of the greatest players of all time IMO is not. His overall legacy will be decided by his production during these next ten years and not by the team he plays for.
He probably prefers living in California to St. Louis (unpopular opinion alert, I don’t blame him). The Angles get solid support especially when they are good, which they are.
I agree with you that he might look back in 20 years and regret not being lifelong Cardinal. The Organization is one of the best in all of sports. It is one of the few sports teams that has Generations of fans, and Cardinal baseball is passed down from generation to generation. I think this is rare and maybe Albert does not quite realize that only a few organizations in all of sports have this unique quality to them.
Overall, I think he made the decision that he thought was best for himself and his family at the time. And I can’t blame him for that.
"We will see you....Tomorrow Night"
See, I'm not sure he believes he made the correct decision.
I’m basing this off of the amount of talking and reasoning both he and his wife, almost immediately, delivered right after signing the deal. It was as if they felt they had to defend the decision and, not so much as look how great the Angles organization is, but also pointing out how they were disrespected in by the Cardinals organization. It was like they were trying to convince people they really had no choice but to go with the Angles offer because of the whole “respect” thing and what not.
Well, no one bought it.
So, if that’s the way they really feel, then I say, oh well.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
All this talk about the Angles is making me sharp.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I realized I'd made that mistake too late.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Legacy as a Cardinal.
Maybe tarnished was a bad word choice. The point was that if he stayed his Legacy would be on par with Stan, now it’s not.
"We will see you....Tomorrow Night"
the family stuff is complete bs
he will never spend all of the money he got or turned down in his lifetime
maybe his foundation will have more $$$, maybe it will be grossly mismanaged and fall apart
he wanted arod money, and he got it, plus more similarities drawn between him and arod than maybe he will be happy with later—or maybe not
12 in 12, thank you very much
I just don't understand the whole "let's deny Albert any future recognition for his Cardinal record" thing at all
His 11 years as a Cardinal still stand as one of the greatest performances in team history. Him leaving doesn’t change that. To deny him recognition for that in the future would, to me, seem downright classless and petty.
He'll have 20 years as an Angel before he has any type of chance to do any Cardinal stuff.
By then, a lot of people will have moved on.
It’s not about denying him. It’s just that in 20 years, not many people are going to care anymore.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
I'm not sure this has been confirmed yet
We know the Angels have first dibs on his time, but I haven’t seen anything to say that he can’t do anything with the Cardinals if he clears it with the Angels first.
But even if he can’t do anything with the Cardinals, 20 years isn’t really that long of a time in the long run. 1992 is 20 years ago no, yet plenty of fans still have vivid memories of the 1980’s teams and earlier.
I wish I could remember which local sports radio program mentioned it
but they said that personal services contract is similar to an option year, i.e., he only has to do it if he approves it at the end of his players contract. That being said, I’m sure he’ll want to be “respected” by the Angels after he’s done so he can make appearances with Brian Downing, Mike Witt and Bobby Grich.
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 23, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
I think that was one of the hangups
he was wanting that guaranteed “respect” from the Cardinals for personal services but they weren’t willing to do that since they have never done that for anyone else.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
the respect of getting standing ovations
statues, memorials, signings, and photo ops
isn’t enough I guess
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
and what an 11 years...
if he retired today he would be a unanimous hall of famer.
This is why I will be pissed if he goes in as an Angel…
That more than anything would bother me.
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
At this point, I really don't care one way or the other.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
well,,,i get that...
when it first went down I was a whiny little bitch (not saying you are one) and pretty much I have now moved on.
still will be nice to see him go into the hall as a redbird.
I think that is the way it should be.
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
this. all of it.
exactly how i feel in a much more articulated way of saying it.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Also great point man!
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
True
But losing 80 WAR and conversations about respecting Stang the Mang stings and people have reacted poorly but passionately
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 1:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't blame them at all for being disapointed or even angry
but 5-7 years from now this board will be really jazzed that things turned out the way they did. Albert in STL was amazing and considering what they gave up to get him(a 13th round pick, 104 million) and what he gave them in return(11 seasons of 170 OPS+ baseball with excellent defense, smart baserunning, 7 playoff appearances, 3 WS appearances, and 2 World Championships) this isn’t exactly a Lebron James situation.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
This is so wrong
For one, Pujols, in the tail end of his contract, will be worth maybe 10-15 million less than he’ll be paid. So that’s not going to “cripple” anything. It will simply make our team about 2-3 wins worse – or one Theriot + Batista + Franklin unit.
Secondly, the reason Pujols is being overpaid at his age 40 season is that he will be underpaid for the next 3-4 years. Overall, Pujols’ contract is fairly close to market value for a player of his talent.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
The overall contract may be market value
but he will have more years when he underperforms(6) than when he overperforms(4).
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
uh, so?
it’s all the same in the end.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
You have more years that his contract is holding the club back.
It is decreasing their odds of putting a championship caliber team in those 6 years. If he puts up an 8 WAR season and they win the WS this year, that 8 WAR only helped them win 1 WS. It’s not helping them win in 2021.
Since there are more seasons where his contract holding them back, it’s not a good deal with regards to winning championships.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
no, see you can't look at it as a binary thing
if his contract is even overall (which it might not be, but that’s a different discussion) and he has more overpaid years than underpaid years that just means he’s providing more value in his overpaid years than he’s losing in his underpaid years.
The only thing that matters is total value, you can’t just cherry pick the bad years.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think we're arguing the same thing
If Pujols puts up 50 WAR over the life of the contract, yes, OVERALL the contact is market value. But building a championship team isn’t about signing contracts that are market value.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
yes, it is
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Unless the Cards get a big TV contract between now and then you are talking about
Allocating 20-25% of total funds available to a guy who will be 35+ for 2/3 of that contract. Do you know who is 35? Lance Berkman is. Would you want the Cards to give Berk a 6/100 deal or even a 6/60 deal? It would be a massive discount to the 6/165 Albert will be making from 36-42. That may not cripple the Angels who were able to pursue FA with Vernon Wells are their roster, but their revenues are considerably bigger.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Does anyone know when the Cards TV contract is up?
Seems like this has been the recent cause for many teams ability to spend. Hopefully, they will be in a position to sign a pretty nice deal. I recall reading recently how the Cards have one of the highest local ratings. Sure the market is much much smaller than most, but it still should be a relatively valuable contract.
that won't cripple the cardinals because Pujols will be overpaid by about 15 million
at the tail end of his deal. and that’s about 2-3 wins a year on the free agent market.
So if by cripple, you mean cost the team 2-3 wins, then I agree.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
I like how Koyie looks like he just released a bird into the wild
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 9:07 AM EST via mobile reply actions
nah
he looks like he’s trying to catch a mistimed slog to deep extra cover
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
I think he's responding to Molina
who just stated that a catcher has to be like a protective mother bear guarding his pitchers. Koyie, who after all used to be a Cub, wants to show off what an effective enraged mother bear he can be.
by Robth on Feb 23, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How long before this thread devolves
Into a Roy Dozewalt lovefest?
by Hardcore Legend on Feb 23, 2012 9:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I'm exercising the pucker muscles in my lips
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Feb 23, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If he's signing with us
wouldn’t it be the Cardinals calling the press conference?
Nope, this has something to do with tractors.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 23, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Reason enough for a lovefest.
Viva el heavy machinery!
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
What if he has three hats on a table and puts one on?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Caterpillar, Bobcat, and Komatsu.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Oswalt
is holding a news conference to report that his bulldozer
in broke down and stuck in the mud in the lower back 40 of
his Mississippi mud farm and he will not be able to concentrate
on any baseball activities until this problem is solved.
I HATE when that happens
or when you get one tractor stuck and you get a bigger tractor to pull it out and you get THAT one stuck too.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
by Hootie Who on Feb 23, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you hadn't already figured it out...
Rafael Furcal has reported to camp and told me he DOES NOT have a Twitter account. Any account claiming to be him is a fake.
— B.J. Rains (@BJRains) February 23, 2012
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So Furcal does NOT like big butts?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Nope. I cannot lie.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Well then
I wonder what that account sent the lucky winner, as it probably wasn’t tickets.
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 23, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
also, after placing several calls to rand mcnally,
Expressing concern about the accuracy of my map of the USA, I have been informed that there are no such cities as “gotham city” or “metropolis.”
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 1:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The really is a metropolis though
Its over the river in IL. They have a superman statue in the middle of town.
Yep, every Hall of Famer did something unique. Mike Schmidt played with his hat sideways. Roberto Clemente chewed other people's fingernails. Tris Speaker was Japanese. Lou Boudreau rode a dolphin into the batter's box. Nap Lajoie would only use John Wilkes Booth's dismembered leg as a bat. And he corked it. Johnny Mize was from the future. - FJM
That's where I live.
halfway through it I thought, "this is a really nerdy thing I'm posting." but I just had to power through to the end.
Danup
Oh yeah I've been here
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I'll be damned
I didn’t know there was more than one of those. Little town called Eldorado near where I grew up has one.
Yep, and Carmi has one too.
But the Big John’s owners sold that store off, the new owners renamed it “Little Giant” and re-painted his shirt green instead of red.
halfway through it I thought, "this is a really nerdy thing I'm posting." but I just had to power through to the end.
Danup
Yep,
he’s actually a LOT bigger than the superman statue. And you have to drive right in front of him to get to the Superman statue anyway.
halfway through it I thought, "this is a really nerdy thing I'm posting." but I just had to power through to the end.
Danup
I gotta say
it’s not very often that random blog posts are about the town i live in. I feel kind of important all of the sudden.
halfway through it I thought, "this is a really nerdy thing I'm posting." but I just had to power through to the end.
Danup
In addition to Oswalt,
there are several other former All-Star players facing the option of retireing, sitting out for now, or playing for less than they prefer:
Johnny Damon
J.D. Drew
Magglio Ordonez
Miguel Tejada
Edgar Renteria
Javier Vazquez
Brandon Webb
Derrek Lee
Vlad Guerrero
Jason Varitek
Ivan Rodriguez
Hideki Matsui
Jason Kendall
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 10:04 AM EST reply actions
oh and Chris Young was pretty good too until he got hit in the face by that Albert liner.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
ah yes, Albert's reign of terror around the bases
not that I am reveling in injury, but it’s kind of epic to take out two guys in a single trip around the bases.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
One of my best friends is a huge Padres fan, so those were awkward time.
“Sorry my team’s best player took out your whole team dude. Well, see you in the playoffs.”
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
i don't think that ever wound up happening
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
True or False: 10 years ago, these guys would all have signed a contract with a team by now.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
mostly true
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
False.
The people retiring ten years ago were just other names (just less publicized). Think about it, the population of baseball players is pretty static and there are always formerly-good players trying to hang on for that last year until eventually there are no takers. That’s why players retire.
Maybe the population of guys like Derrek Lee or Javier Vaquez is going up, because players now make so much money that they have the “freedom” to retire rather than to keep playing out the string because they need the money.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
So you don't think we treat aging sluggers differently than we did 10 years ago?
Specifically (from this list) guys like Guerrero or Matsui?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
It mostly seems to be a case of how few DH positions there are open
If Detroit can get either of those two for around 2-3 mil they should do it.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Who are comps from ten years ago for 35-38 y/o, no-defense, sluggers coming off under 700 OPS's (hideki) or under 740 OPS's (Vlad)?
Also, is Vlad not in camp because literally no one will offer him any sort of contract or because he doesn’t want to sign for $1mm, like Ibanez, or because he wants $5MM or it just isn’t worth it to him?
As far as I remember, didn’t Gary Sheffield and Raffy Palmeiro and Carlos Delgado still want to play but no one would sign them either (speaking of a group w/in the past ten years)?
Didn’t David Segui stop receiving contract offers when he was 37? Kevin Millar? Other comps for Hideki never played past their early thirties, like Mike Greenwell or Alvin Davis.
Bottom line – Aging, declining sluggers stop getting desirable contract offers in their mid-30’s. Happens in every era, I would think. I think you’d have to show that comparable sluggers (with comparable stats in their last year) kept getting new contract offers 10 years ago (while these guys aren’t getting similar offers) for the hypothesis to hold true.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Gawd I need Play Index
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Apparently I deleted it because I felt guilty knowing your password
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I guess I don't understand the criteria for this.
Craig Biggio was in the middle of a long-term deal and was a 2B and was still really good (110 OPS + at 2B) in 2001.
We’d be looking for mid-30’s sluggers who got a new contract, but had no positional value, and were worse than about .725 OPS in the year preceding the new contract offer. And then we’d want to see whether there were also a bunch of guys like that who didn’t get new contract offers.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I've helped you along your journey. Where you go from here is up to you.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Someone like Devon White looks like he might be a good counter-example
Anyone know why he stopped playing in 2001? He had a .802 OPS at age 38 but then just stopped. Don’t know whether he retired because he was injured or tired of playing or whether he wasn’t offered a contract.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Kenny Lofton,
Barry Bonds. Sometimes teams just fail to get talent.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
This will take more time than I have right now
but I do want to see if I can come up with some additional names. It feels like these players are regarded/treated differently than 10 years ago but that may simply be a misperception on my part.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
This is awkward
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Fritz already did all the work
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
And the criteria doesn't include contract status
and OPS goes the wrong way. Something like this would probably be more helpful:
“For single seasons, From 1996 to 2003, From Age 35 to 45, From 10th season to last season, Played 50% of games at 1B, 3B, LF, RF or DH, (requiring onbase_plus_slugging<=.750), sorted by greatest On-Base Plus Slugging”
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Doug Mientkiwicz circa 2005
Ron Coomer circa 2000
Frank Catalanotto circa 2008
I’m finding more anecdotal cases than anything systematic. But seriously, how were these guys still getting contracts?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I don't know. How did Raul Ibanez? or Mark Kotsay? or Jason Giambi? or Mike Cameron (before he voluntarily quit)? or Lyle Overbay?
Seems a lot of this has to do with contract demands. I’ve heard Johnny Damon wanted $5MM – he probably could have signed if he would have taken $1MM.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Corey Kotchsay...
I am forever mixing up Mark Kotsay, Casey Kotchman and Corie Koske.
No good reason, besides the ’K’alliteration.
Actually seems more confusing now that Kotsay followed Koske to Milwaukee at (or near) the end of their careers.
Not particularly funny or interesting, just the way it is…
by baked mcbride on Feb 23, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Ibanez still has some decent platoon splits but
yes, I guess I often wonder why these players get contracts.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Yes, at least Ibanez has a defined role.
I’m still waiting to hear what Schumaker does that Descalso and Komatsu (and others) don’t do. Alas, I’m sure I’m destined to wait on that answer.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
true
Most were entering their prime 10 years ago…
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Feb 23, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I thought he had a labrum tear?
Those things don’t to work out very well. Unless you’re Chris M’fking Carpenter.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
If I recall correctly he dramatically changed his armslot
I actually want to say he lowered it.
Not afraid to nitpick
but he had the best sinker this side of the Mississipi
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
is it too late to
SIGN ALL THESE GUYS
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
if it was up to me
we’d give Damon, Drew and Ordonez NRIs and let them battle it out for an imaginary bench slot.
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
Drew is way, way better than Skip
even now I’d have him over Skip on this roster in a second.
And Vazquez seems a very good player to still be waiting on deals. I wonder if him and Lee are going to end up having to retire because they won’t lower their $ requirements enough.
Most of the rest of that crew kinda suck but I’m surprised Damon hasn’t landed somewhere yet.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't Vazquez retire?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Wikipedia says si.
Odd decision, he was quite good last year, especially in the second half.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
3.87 xFIP last year
he’s probably not that much worse than Dozewalt.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
I thought he'd play well with Busch III as his home park.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Vasquez simply doesn't want to play baseball anymore.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I thought.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
wasnt he a top 5 pitcher
3 years ago>? makes sense he just doesn’t want to play anymore
by guillermozeliak on Feb 23, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
He was a top 10 pitcher for a good stretch of the 2nd half last year, iirc.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
wishin
thats what santana is this year….i reallly wanted him to pitch last year…just promoting my likeness of johan
by guillermozeliak on Feb 23, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
or at the very least
SIGN BRANDON WEBB!
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
SIGN JAVIER VAZQUEZ
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
it might be the last "oswalt day".
The talk of him coming might die today either way.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Happy Roy Oswalt day.
Hopefully this isn’t a repeat of Pujols day. Because that day kinda sucked.
Grit != flat out sucking.
dammit. i was waiting to see if anyone would link that.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
i guess this fits with your new signiature
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
didn't say it was a good thing
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Aranathor > Fang < VEB
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
my eyes burn more seeing khalil greene batting 4th
by zoomzoomj88 on Feb 23, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Holliday was in the AL!
Boog was still in STL!
The Cardinals still didn’t have a real SS!
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
on the real SS note...
it’s insane how we really haven’t had a good SS until furcal (ok, so maybe boog was a good one). izturis, khalil, theriot… geez.
by zoomzoomj88 on Feb 23, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Probably really since Renteria, who retired the other day.
I guess Eckstein was OK but no-one at SS who’s been clearly above average for nearly a decade.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Boog's OK at short, but much better RF
112 UZR/150, man. He’d be worth 10 wins there even after accounting for the loss of offense. Heh.
But seriously, he’s been worth 9 wins over 1800 PAs. That should qualify as good. The down year sticks out, because it was his most recent with the Cards, but he was still averagish in 2010.
And um… hi everyone. First post.
by Chocobot on Feb 23, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I love you.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I gave it a C
I felt it lacked the emotion of his earlier work
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I prefered your stuff when it was still acoustic
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
OPENING DAY STARTING 3B BRIAN BARDEN
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
NL Rookie of the Month
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I liked Barden
compared to the other options
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Feb 23, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
He was better at defense than Thurston.
And I think their offensive production would’ve been similar. Alas, we’ll never know.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
plus you have to factor in that one out of every three hits of Thurston's
turned into an out on the basepaths
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
His 2009 BsR was 0.2 according to Fangraphs.
I thought it’d be negative.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Wasn't Greene negative last year too?
Im not really gaining any trust in that stat
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 2:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Negative 0.3 BsR last season.
No idea why. 11 SB in 58 games, 121 PA. Never CS. I seem to recall that he took an extra base when possible. Don’t really remember to many bone-headed running mistakes. (shrug)
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Stolen bases and caught-stealings aren't included in Bsr.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/ultimate-base-running-ubr/
Greene’s sample size is so small, I wouldn’t put any stock in it.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Slightly surprised Barden never got more of a run
guy who could play 2B and 3B and take a walk. I think worse players than him have got a couple of thousand PAs in MLB in the last few years.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
In hindsight, he could have had a Punto-like career.
He was a good defender, IIRC. Perhaps not on a level with Punto, but still good.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Miles had a better contact skill.
A .300 BA still counts for something.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
isn't Miles career avg like .260 or something?
With no walks or power?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 24, 2012 5:01 AM EST up reply actions
.281
but the point still stands because obp is .320 and slg is .352
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Only two players from that April 2009 starting lineup
are still with the Cards – Molina and Wainwright
Wow.
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 23, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
2009 team won more regular season games than the 2011 team
with a opening day lineup that featured ankiel, duncan, barden, and greene
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
then we traded for matt holliday...
and everyone bitched and moaned about it and then he put up something like 3 WAR in two months and we won the division.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
You guys should look up CC Sabathia's stats the half-season after he was traded to Milwaukee
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
yeah he was pretty damn awesome.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
HoFer
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
in some weird way I think he became underrated
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
i'll have to look at the numbers.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
he pitches 210 innings a year
wins 18+ (yay wins)
Ks 200
Whip of 1.15
and k/bb of ~3
guy is an absolute monster. deserves every penny of the contracts the yankees give him
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Roy Halladay is 34 and has ~70 fWAR to his name
CC Sabathia is 31 and has ~57 fWAR to his name. That’s 3 seasons of 4.3 WAR pitching to be Roy Halladay’s equal
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I think they're both clear HoFers
unless CC gets hurt in the next couple of years or something. I think Roy’s there if he retires tomorrow.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 23, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Welp
Derrick Goold dgoold
RT "tmckernan: Mozeliak on @ITDMorningAfter right now: Roy Oswalt is not going to be a Cardinal."
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions
Well. That was ugly.
Two @ signs are bad, mmmkay?
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Excuse me while I let you believe I did this research myself.
Mo’ insists Roy O “will not be pitching for the Cardinals.” #Categorical
— Joe Strauss (@JoeStrauss) February 23, 2012
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
And he won't have to face Waino this year!
Beltran BP! (as provided by Derrick Goold’s Bird Land)
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
have position players officially reported yet?
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 11:25 AM EST reply actions
confirming the same sentiment
that I think I read somewhere that they had until thursday
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
everyone's pretty much there, no?
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I believe so
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
By Gosh, I stand corrected...
Today marked the final day of workouts without (at least officially) all position players. While several position players have been practicing for some time now, the first official full squad practice will happen on Friday. The only two position players who I have not spotted are Lance Berkman and Eugenio Velez. The expectation is that both will be here on Friday.
Hill: "Guys? Little help catching this baby falling out of the sky?"
Anderson: “I’ve never seen this before, Yadi. A grown man hallucinating on his first day of training.”
Molina: “Happens to all the guys from other teams who haven’t won a World Series before or haven’t won in a long time. You should’ve seen Holliday. He was running around naked and screaming about a grizzly bear trying to adulterate his precious bodily fluids.”
Anderson: “Yikes.”
Molina: “Oh yeah. You got Westbrook on the first session today. One word of warning: do not mention ordering french fries at the local Hooters.”
Westbrook (somewhere in the background): “Noooooooo! The orphan fingers are crawling towards me! The orphan fingers are crawling towards me!”
Molina: “Man, he’s still got sensitive ears.”
Let's Go Blues!
Support your local NAHL team. Seriously.
by Paperwork Ninja on Feb 23, 2012 12:10 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
So Oswalt is reportedly not pitching for boston or texas
Mo says he’s not pitching for us….damn that mystery team.
Either that, or Oswalt retires, which I really don’t see happening.
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Feb 23, 2012 12:22 PM EST reply actions
Or he does the Clemens thing and waits til midseason.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Ding ding ding!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 23, 2012 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
...
After achieving only frustration in his negotiations with various GMs, Roy Oswalt will announce the formation of his expansion team, the Mississippi Dozers, today at 5 pm. The team projects to start Derrek Lee at first base and Johnny Damon in the outfield, among others. Brett Favre has reportedly contacted Oswalt about his need for a player at the novel position of “baseball quarterback,” or, failing that, “designated gunslinger.”
by Robth on Feb 23, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
he could construct a roster of has-beens
from the list upthread
and hire kevin millar to be the manager
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Don't get our hopes up
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 2:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I can't rec on an iPhone
But I like this more than I should
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 2:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Seems like an odd move to me.
How does this help him get more cash? At best he gets the same amount he’s being offered now once the midseason contract is prorated. Teams aren’t going to offer him MORE money to pitch LESS. He gets more time at home, which is cool, but I still think he’d get more money from pitching, and would be better off.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I hope he doesn't wind up just retiring when he still has something left.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
somebody will have a big enough need
for him to pay him some money. The Cards would have been all over him a year ago.
Because Matheny
But he has offers from teams he wants to pitch for in the range from $5-7.5 million
He wants more like $10-12 mm. Does he really expect to get paid $10 million for a half-season? Most he gets is what he’s being offered now.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
one possibility is that teams have made it clear his back is a gating item..
..and waiting until midseason when he has a longer recovery time could mitigate that risk
It is probably the same kind of money...
when you consider how profitable his bulldozing business will be at the spring of the year, clearing out trails, clearing space for people to build houses. Great business move.
not more total
maybe more for the amount of work, plus higher chance he will be with a playoff team.
Grit != flat out sucking.
seems odd
when he’s already got such a short list of teams he’ll play for.
Plus, he’s not exactly Roger Clemens when Roger Clemens pulled this off. He’ll help down the road, but I’m not sure not playing baseball and then wanting to pitch down the stretch is the most attractive way Roy Oswalt could market himself.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Clemens really only had a couple of teams he wanted to play for as well.
But then he was Roger Clemens
per start
but it’s still the same amount of money.
and, from what I can tell, the teams he “preferred” were interested and offered contracts that were all similar. They all basically played chicken with him and won.
Now, he could be waiting for someone on either of the teams to get injured giving him some more leverage. But, is a Roy Oswalt who isn’t pitching someone that can gain leverage? Not sure.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
i mean saying that he's willing to sign mid-season
is an attempt at leverage, but he has no plans to sign mid-season
Really?
According to “sources” from the above article, he does have every intention to sign mid-season.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
whatever.
so, now “no plans” translates to “might”?
Seriously….
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
i'm not offering interpretations of the words in that article
im offering my opinion of his motivations for saying what’s quoted in that article
Oswalt you greedy fucker
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Draft Prospects
KLaw posted his top 50 today. To continue with our phallic tradition the Cards will have to be drafting Brian Johnson and Kieran Lovegrove right?
"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan
I'm gonna call it right here
Cards get Stryker at 19 and Cecchini at 22 #bestdraftever
I've actually sen Johnson go to us in more than one mock
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 23, 2012 2:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also
Link?
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 23, 2012 2:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
this is awesome Dan
lovin the voice of reason tone and insights. great work sir.
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 23, 2012 1:49 PM EST reply actions
SIGN EVERY OSWALT FROM EVERY MULTIVERSE AND EVERY POSSIBLE FUTURE
livin fuzzy in a binary world
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 23, 2012 1:50 PM EST reply actions
EVEN BIZARROY OSWALT???
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Feb 23, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Goold reports Molina talks are back on
Recent talks have gone in a positive direction, a source confirmed.
#developing
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
This is good news
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 23, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Goold expands:
They have decided on where to eat dinner.
SIGN ROYO
by Notorious PSC on Feb 23, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yadi likes the place with the little shrimp and peppers
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 3:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Joke all you want, guys
I still have a gut feeling that the Cardinals will offer to eat at a perfectly reasonable local place but that Molina will decline because he really wants to eat at California Pizza Kitchen.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
But the Olive Garden had a special going
Yadi’s got to understand that we can’t cripple the team with such extravagances
MO suggested Steak-n-Shake
And then Yadi wanted In-N-Out Burger.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I'm telling you, Yadi is bound for L.A. and there's nothing we can do about it
The jerk has already started putting avocados on stuff unnecessarily. The writing is on the wall.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
"Animal Style"
“Neck Tattoo style”/ “Yadi Style” has a nice ring to it
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 24, 2012 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
Arby's
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Its good mood food!!!
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 23, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Enough with the damn cow puns
I am going to moorder you
SIGN ROYO
by Notorious PSC on Feb 24, 2012 5:45 AM EST up reply actions
Why is it okay to streamroll a catcher by not a 2B trying to turn a DP?
Gear?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Technically, if the 2B is standing in the baseline between you and second base, you can steamroll them
Catchers just happen to be the only ones who actually physically block their base with any regularity.
Other considerations
- The IF making the turn at second base is generally throwing the ball right at your face, whereas a catcher is just holding it. This kinda forces you to get down, because if the throw hits you in the face then you’re out, the runner going to first base is out, and you need facial reconstruction surgery.
- Also, yes, there’s less stigma in hitting catchers because they have gear and it’s considered a normal part of the game or whatever.
- If you run past second base, you can be tagged out. If you touch home and go past it, you scored. Running over a dude generally takes you past the base.
If you steamroll a guy at second, you'll probably be tagged out somewhere in left field.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 23, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
matt holliday would like a word with you.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
WORLD SERIES Matt Holliday
/gritandtalent.OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 4:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
From MLBTR
Coco Crisp said the Cardinals offered him a multiyear deal this offseason, Joe Stiglich of the Bay Area News Group tweets. The outfielder eventually signed a two-year, $14MM contract with the Athletics.
That seems... wrong
Why would the Cardinals want Coco Crisp over Carlos Beltran?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
And, i guess, theoretically,
Oswalt + Crisp > Westbrook + Beltran
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
OT HELP GUYS!
I know there is a discussion posted here about MLB.tv and blackout restrictions and how to proxy around them. Can you make that a fanshot so i can see it again? Also does anyone have familiarity with a slingbox and if I have Dish Network at the lake can I send the signal to my computer here in STL?
From the Klaw chat
Tom (Atlanta)
So how bad has Stanford coaching messed up OF Austin Wilson as a player that you saw?
Klaw (1:40 PM)
I don’t know how you take a 6’5" 240 pound player and turn him into a singles hitter. Talked to a scout who saw one of their practices and said Marquess would scream at hitters who tried to drive the ball out and cheer hitters who made weak contact the other way.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
/vomit
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
I should have gone to Stanford
Too late now, since I’m older than Carp, but I’m great at making weak contact to both sides of the field. The HS coach cut me for that, so I never tried to make the team in college.
I also have poor plate discipline, and a weak arm. Are those well regarded now too?
by Chocobot on Feb 23, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
TLR would have found a place for you somewhere
and by somewhere I mean 350+ PA
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
It's past midnight, so its ok that I read it completely differently...right?
I’m great at making weak contact to both sides of the field.
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 24, 2012 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
IMO this is the next big opportunity
Perhaps even Moneyball-esque.
These stories are all over the place; of great athletes whose swings were ruined by stupid coaches.
I can’t tell you how many times this season I’ve talked to minor leaguers who told me, “So eventually I decided to stop doing what my coaches were telling me to do and went back to what I did in HS/College and started hitting again.”
Boog would have made that play.
I'd say a college coach hurts more than a pro level coach
The pro coach only has one goal: to get the player to the next level. College coaches have other motives.
#givelancechants
Kind of, I guess
I don’t know how “hit the ball hard” is a bad goal though
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Oh I wasn't refuting you
Just reinforcing that the coach is stupid
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
You can swing too hard
But people tend to massively over-compensate in the other direction.
I’m still not entirely sure why.
Boog would have made that play.
Mike Epstein's work has some major flaws...
…but one of his great points is why do so many hitting coaches teach their hitters to do exactly what the opposing pitching coach wants them to do (to pound the ball into the ground).
Boog would have made that play.
I wonder if this would change
if college coaches routinely were hired to manage MLB teams, as in the NFL?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 23, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
"College coaches have other motives"
I’d be interested any stories you might have to tell.
I have some of my own.
Boog would have made that play.
All I'm saying is a college coaches goal is a collegiate championship
After maybe 4 years, they’re done with a player, so they have no reason to not blow a pitcher’s arm out or make their lurch-sized players into slap hitting sissies.
#givelancechants
Absolutely
I know lots of pitchers who were taught bad arm action stuff because the coach wanted the extra velocity and didn’t care about the long term.
Boog would have made that play.
Well sure they do
They want to get more good pitchers and hitters to come there. If they blow out the arms of their good pitchers, it will be much more difficult to recruit. Similarly if they don’t prepare their players for the pros, it will be much more difficult to recruit.
What are you basing this conclusion on?
I’ve got to think that a large part of a recruit’s decision to go somewhere is the success of the program in putting players successfully and healthy into the professional leagues. Are you saying recruits just don’t care?
Generally, very few people blame problems on coaching
They just assume it’s bad luck.
However, Marquess seems to be developing a bit of a reputation.
Boog would have made that play.
Even assuming this is true, and also assuming the coach is "ruining" Austin Wilson
What would be the coach’s reasoning for making a power hitter into a singles hitter? If it helps win a championship, doesn’t that mean that Wilson is a more effective hitter after the coaching? And isn’t that a good thing?
So I’m left wondering, are the coaches (allegedly) so dumb that they don’t realize they are making their hitters worse, or are they somehow getting a temporary advantage that I’m not seeing, while crippling the long term development of the hitter?
The pitching thing seems logical to me, because they could get better results (in the short term) out of working their pitchers to death. But teaching hitters to be worse doesn’t make any sense to me no matter what the coach’s goals are.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
His approach seems to be...
…that everybody just puts the ball in play and then runs like heck out of the box.
There’s no sense of different approaches for different players.
I also don’t think that he could be convinced that anybody has every been successful trying to hit the ball hard (or he assumes, that while that works for Pujols, it won’t work for anybody else).
I think the issue is that most of these guys go on gut feel and never look at the stats, so they never get a sense of how they are hurting themselves.
There is still a huge amount of anti-intellectualism in baseball.
Boog would have made that play.
by thepainguy on Feb 23, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm guessing this
So I’m left wondering, are the coaches (allegedly) so dumb that they don’t realize they are making their hitters worse
The “people are stupid” theory is an elegant one which explains most things in life.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe not so much stupid
as lazy and ignorant
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Feb 23, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
if you think being a low strikeout singles hitter
is more valuable than being a high strikeout power hitter, you are an idiot (in most cases). If you don’t bother to check to see if you hypothesis is correct, than you are lazy and ignorant.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 23, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
in the pros sure
I have no idea what the league average Babip is in college. But it may make more since to have guy just put balls into play at the college level ; where you have much less talented defensive players, than at the pro level.
Grit != flat out sucking.
(it still probably doesn't)
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
yeah.
hard hit is always tougher to field than weakly hit.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
yes
but if it the difference is being a high strikeout power hitter vs low strike out singles hitter.
HSPH could only put 5 balls into play against the LSSH’s 8. And those 8 may end up being 4 hits while those 5 may end up being 3 hits.
Really, i’m just throwing guess out there. My main point is we shouldn’t assume that what makes a good pro player is the same thing that makes a good college player. In any sport. Rules are slightly different (like, metal bats). Talent level is different.
Though like football, players need to be aware of what colleges will prepare them best for the pros. And if they don’t plan on going pro, what colleges they will get the most out of academically.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I think a lot of it can be attributed to
most of these guys learned these things a long time ago from people who were successful (not that it had anything to do with how they taught the skills) so the assumption is that it’s the right way to do it.
I had this come up with a guy I was coaching with a few years ago. In fairness, he’s not a young guy (mid-50s) and his college coach (who he learned it all from) is still coaching at the same college (at the age of like 90) on an open-ended contract that says as long as he wants to coach, he has a job. Think Joe Paterno without all of the child rape in the showers.
Anywho…..
We’re at a parent night thing and coach is talking about swinging down on the ball and squishing the bug and extension at the point of contact and all this stuff we all heard a million years ago and he’s using his former college coach as his basis.
Well, let’s just say that one evening over a few beers at a local chain chicken wing establishment, we got to talking about it. At first he dismissed it when I basically said the thing he had been taught and had taught for like 30 years was wrong. But the more we really talked and he thought about it, he was like, “shit, your right. it doesn’t make sense to teach it that way.”
I think most of these guys either attribute way too much credence to old teachers or are lazy to figure it out. because when you explain it, or see video of it, it’s impossible to ignore.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Most of these guys don't really know anything...
…and for whatever reason they don’t want to do the work that it will take to educate themselves, so they just teach what they were taught or have heard.
It’s basically rote, cookie cutter instruction.
That’s what I did when I first started coaching my kids. The difference was that I kept basic stats and started noticing that the kids I was working with kept getting worse and the ones I didn’t work with were the only ones who kept hitting.
This will change at some point, because I know lots of very curious college hitting coaches.
Boog would have made that play.
Well, I think the internet (as well as just plain ol technology)
will have a lot to do with changing this.
Simply put, 20 years ago, you really had nothing to go on but your experiences and what you had been told. Today, you have really every teacher at your fingertips and you can see by things like your video analysis how old teaching techniques are simply wrong.
inother words. It’s easier to convince someone nowadays because there is so much more evidence.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Plenty of people do things do things that are counterproductive
are the coaches (allegedly) so dumb that they don’t realize they are making their hitters worse
Especially when it’s not completely obvious that it’s wrong (by that I mean, let’s assume it IS wrong, it’s still not obvious that it is in fact wrong because there isn’t immediate feedback that proves it to be so). For example, how would the coach know how the same players would hit if they didn’t follow his teaching? And he’s been “successful” because Stanford has had good teams, so it isn’t apparent from his win-loss record (the thing that coaches most care about).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
I just am kind of amazed that coaches could actually be doing this to the degree people say they are
Where do they think all those hard hit balls in the majors come from? Even if they are old school, all the best hitters in baseball going back to Babe Ruth have mostly had power. For all the Ichiros, Wade Boggses, and Tony Gwynns, there are tons of other guys who show that it is much more likely for the best hitters to have power. All of the explanations you guys are offering for the “bad coach” mindset make bits of sense to me but I’m still having a hard time tying it all together in a way that is believable. So either there is a lot of exaggeration going on, or a lot of coaches are certain places really are that stubborn, or both.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Seriously
They think the the goal is backspin, and obviously the way to get backspin is to chop down on the ball.
One of my big tasks for this year is to put this myth to rest with high speed footage, but I already have some video that suggests that it’s a myth.
Boog would have made that play.
I have heard of this phenomenon before (partially from you, actually!)
Do people try for backspin because they think it generates “loft” or something, which leads to power?
Also, if that’s so then isn’t that a slightly different phenomenon from the specific description of the Stanford coaching? It sounds like they are preaching hitting grounders the opposite way.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Backspin will give you a boost
Maybe 5 to 10%.
And you CAN see balls die due to topspin.
The problem is that it’s REALLY hard to put a certain spin a baseball. Even Ted Williams said he just tried to make good, solid contact and then said a little prayer.
Boog would have made that play.
Heh
So is it better to just go for maximizing the force of your swing, and going for the best angle at the moment you hit the ball?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Yes
Slight uppercut and try to hit it square. Send it right back where it came from.
Boog would have made that play.
I think you're probably overstating the case
Let’s take a random, marginally-useful stat (because that’s what I could find in 3 seconds):
In 2011, Stanford was 3rd in the Pac-10 in slugging % last year, behind ASU and UofA (two very good teams).
It’s not like Stanford is a bad baseball team or even a relatively bad-hitting college baseball team overall.
It sounds like what’s happening is that he’s teaching guys some stuff that Keith Law or thepainguy or whoever doesn’t like and not teaching good hitting principles. Okay.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
I was partially just wondering if I'm falling into over-interpretation, yeah.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
He's (mostly) serving his own interests
And totally screwing guys up in the long term.
I have a funny/sad story about this.
D-1 school picks up a JUCO guy named Michael Liberto for his bat and then “fixes” his swing and costs him 100 to 150 points of average. He then goes back to what he was taught in HS and his swing comes back and he gets drafted.
Boog would have made that play.
What was his BABIP at the D-1 school?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
In many cases
The crap will work at the college level.
In fact, I know of many guys with flawed, crappy swings who can hit everywhere but the big leagues. Of course, I also get lots of calls from guys who flame out in A+ or AA.
Boog would have made that play.
So the quality of competition hides the badness of approach, basically?
The players succeed despite the coaching, and it shows up later? That seems plausible to me too. But then I wonder why better coaches haven’t reaped huge advantages by coaching their players better during college, and forcing everybody to notice the difference.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Basically
The problem is that there are so many Coaches For Life out there that the turn-over process is very slow.
It’s going to take 20 more years.
Boog would have made that play.
I guess I just thought that it must have been long enough for these guys to die off already
Based purely on my own assumptions, not on any evidence.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
baseball has a lot of crusty old bastards.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
OMG! SIGN AUSTIN WILSON! (for cheaper than before!!!!)
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 6:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What always gets me
Is frequently how failed former minor leaguers (like Marquess) teach the stuff that ruined their swing. I’m not sure what they think about the instruction they received. I assume they just figured that they couldn’t do it. They never question whether it makes sense or not.
Boog would have made that play.
Law has been dogging Stanford for quite some time.
This is not new and he talked about it w/r/t Wilson before the draft.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
ugh
how does an idiot like that get to run a major college program?
PANIC PANIC PANIC PANIC
Matheny’s decision to mix veterans and Minor Leaguers in groups during workouts is having an impact. Today, for instance, Westbrook and Kyle McClellan sat down with Jenkins to demonstrate a grip on a pitch. Know that these youngsters are soaking this all up.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I hope they aren't teaching him the grip they use when they serve up their patented meat ball pitch.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
mmmmmmmmm
meat ball
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Feb 23, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I see the grip you are using Mr. McClellan,
but why are you throwing the ball so slowly and directly over the plate?
#givelancechants
by Brian_K on Feb 23, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It's not a question of where 'e grips it!
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
It's a simple question of Pitch F/X ratios!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Are you suggesting McClennan's and Westbrook's pitches migrate?!
Actually, I take that back. It all makes sense now, carry on.
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 6:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We are the Knights Who Say... WOO!
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
K-Mac can show Jenkins how to burn in a 450' fastball - that is one that travels 450' after the batter makes contact.
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Apparently the chain of custody in the sample was broken. Braun wins appeal 2-1
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
there's gotta be a story behind this. wow.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 5:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It's all out there, yeah?
He was taking a certain medication for an STD which triggered the test
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I believe he claimed it was a medication.
The notion that it was for an STD was total internet message board rumor.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 5:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe, I guess. Doesn't make it untrue
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
goddammit.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Hauricourt is reporting he won the appeal and the AP is reporting he lost the appeal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
*Haudricourt
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
AP says it was a typo.
he won.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Some typo.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
no kidding.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
code for
we fired the intern that screwed up the headline
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
oh my god... please let this happen.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
I hate Haudicort more than any reporter on the planet
I'm torn on this.
It makes the Brewers better, which is bad.
But I like watching him play and I generally prefer truth to prevail, which is good.
But the forgurt is cursed, which is bad.
But I’d rather beat the Brewers when they’re at full strength so they don’t have any excuses, which is good.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 23, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
If he didn’t take a PED then he should play. I’d hate to see him suspended on a technicality that doesn’t pass a common sense test
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Feb 23, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
[Silence]
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Feb 23, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Can I go now?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Feb 23, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Apparently MLB "vehemently disagrees" with the arbiter's decision
So who knows if the truth prevailed.
"We will see you....Tomorrow Night"
wow
Derrick Goold @dgoold Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
MLB puts out a release saying it “vehemently disagrees” with the arbiter’s decision re: Ryan Braun’s successful appeal. #stlcards #cardinals
Hm
That takes away some of the “feel good story” vibe pretty quickly.
Though it’s impossible for me to know what actually happened and whether he actually deserved it.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
If MLB is against it, it's probably the right call.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Feb 23, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Of course MLB disagrees, they lost.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
"We read the opinion and saw the error of our ways. Sorry we ever brought this case, Ryan. Our bad."
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
They should have refused to comment under the guise that the process is confidential by operation of contract
and just allowed the Braun camp to control the message. I know that they lost but the how and why only does further damage to MLB’s image. Braun being exonerated also helps MLB’s image. I find the statement curious because I think it hurts MLB in that it makes their drug-testing regime look less than trustworthy.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I don't think it makes mlb look good at all.
Basically, it’s been proven that their test can be fought and defeated by a lawyer who looks hard enough.
When no one won any arbitration, it was pretty safe. Now, the whole thing is questionable. I heard on the radio on the way home that some mlb reporter (honestly can’t remember who it was) said that mlb will be looking to close this loophole pronto.
Problem is, can they do so without consent of the players union and if they can’t, why would the union oppose such a change?
Either way. This opens up a big can of worms and that’s never good.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Trust me.
Lawyers don’t have to look too hard to find a chain of custody problem in a drug-testing case.
The parties sat down and negotiated a drug-testing policy that includes procedures meant to ensure the integrity of the testing system. There is no loophole. MLB failed to follow the procedures they agreed to follow. MLB has no one to blame but itself. All it has to do is follow the procedures it agreed to.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 23, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, and if all these rumors turn out to be true I am sticking with my "worst case scenario" feeling for now
I’m pretty much just annoyed at all parties involved.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
well.
a technicality. a loophole. whatever you want to call it.
His test was positive and it was the highest ever in mlb. He’s not being suspended because the procedures afterward were not followed to a ‘t’. That doesn’t mean the test was tampered with. They didn’t argue that.
They argued the handling of the sample. Which obviously not handled within the protocol agreed to. However, they they would have made provisions in the agreement that allowed for a situation like this to take place (and from a tweet below, I’m to believe this isn’t so far out there), then the loophole they found would not have been there to take advantage of.
Look, bgh said it above. Lawyers don’t have to look too hard to find a chain of custody problem. They just typically have to look.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
But you get your choice of topping, which is good
The toppings contain Potassium Benzoate, which is a PED
by CaptainYesterday on Feb 23, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
MLB is not going to announce it because the whole process is supposed to be confidential under the CBA.
So it would be up to the player or team to announce.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
actually, MLB's twitter just tweeted it
and the news stories i have read said the two parties mutually agreed to make it public because it had all been leaked anyway
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
That makes sense.
The MLB official statement doesn’t, though.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
so the brewers get their 1.5-2 wins back.
i still say the cardinals are better.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 5:22 PM EST reply actions
very slightly
we could really use Dozewalt.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
but MO says we don't need him
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
if he'd get his head out of his ass.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 24, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
just going to leave this here.
Someone familiar with the decision said the appeal went Braun’s way not so much on contesting the result of the test but the testing process itself, some kind of technicality. And it was arbitrator Shyam Das who decided to rule in favor on that technicality, making it a 2-1 decision by the three-man panel.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Why is Das getting all the flak?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
yeah, i don't know
i guess it’s just like “blaming” one judge on the Supreme Court for a ruling- usually there’s going to be either a unanimous consensus, or a split decision, and usually in the split decision, someone’s going to be more undecided than the others.
how on earth Haudricourt got that info, that Das was the “swing vote”, which is what his story implied to me, who knows
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Oh, the other person was Michael Winer
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Weiner
Heh
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Remember when that one Weiner guy got caught sending pics of his junk to ladies?
That was awesome.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
ah, no, nevermind- from Will Carroll (sorry)
1 is MLB rep, 1 is MLBPA rep. Arbitrator is deciding vote. Most cases never make this far.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
because this
As a part of our drug testing program, the Commissioner’s Office and the Players Association agreed to a neutral third party review for instances that are under dispute. While we have always respected that process, Major League Baseball vehemently disagrees with the decision rendered today by arbitrator Shyam Das.
was about to comment on this
who is Shyam Das? I know Wiener is the president of the players union, which is crap. If MLB wants a neutral third party, I wouldn’t think he’d qualify.
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
well, i think the point is
it’s a 3 man panel, where one person is majorly in one court, one person is majorly in the other, and the third (Das) is a neutral arbitrator
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
ah
well then in that case… damn it.
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
he's Ryan Braun's dad
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
so he wins on a technicality
but the story will be praising him for maintaining his innocence all along.. even though it appears based on this he’s not innocent.
Will Carroll feels otherwise
@injuryexpert Quit calling Braun decision a technicality, media. It was decided on science.
i really shouldn’t judge just based on what Haudricourt says, but it does really annoy me that we know this much and yet no more.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Will Carroll:
Brauns appeal was won on the scientific argument, I am told. No specific precedent set here. I’m curious if the substance will leak.
via twitter
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Has Carroll read the decision?
Is he familiar with Braun’s argument?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I don't know, but I trust his opinion more than some random person's.
If nothing else comes out, it’s good enough for me, especially since I’d prefer to think of him as innocent.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
It's those big doe eyes of his
don’t let them fool you!
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Feb 23, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Heh.
Nah, I like a nice clean fight. We’re good enough to beat them this way, and if we’re not, well, we’re not.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Should be a good fight...
I’m just trying to think what the sign guy will have for Braun…
“Who’s itching to get this game started?”
Itchy and Scratchy – Braun and Nyjer
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
probably best for Braun
if it is leaked. going to be a lot of skeptics out there
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
if carroll hasn't actually heard "the substance"
Of the decision, why is he lecturing people on the actual basis of the decision?
Since, presumably, das isn’t the source of any of these comments, isn’t it most likely that MLB sources are saying “technicality” and Braun/union sources are saying “science”? Anybody who’s a source to the confidential proceeding will have a bias.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 5:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yikes man.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Heard that Braun defense was sample wasn’t shipped in timely fashion to lab and that seemed to sway arbitrator in in his favor #Brewers
, she blinded me with
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 11:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I've been dropping the new science and kicking the new knowledge...
by peach concrete on Feb 24, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dropping science like when Galileo dropped his orange
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
like when Singletary dropped his pants
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
testosterone does change form natural to artificial in a test tube
sounds like bs to me
12 in 12, thank you very much
Only Braun's balls are OJ
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Feb 23, 2012 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
it seems like if braun prevails on a "technicality" -
Which is a word I hate because it means so many things – better, prevails not because there is serious doubt about his innocence, but, WAG, because the test was administered in a way not in keeping with the CBA, that outcome might be the worst of all worlds.
Had braun shown his innocence, that would’ve restored a little public faith in baseball players. Had MLB prevailed, it would tend to prove that the testing regime is meaningful. If these reports are correct, then I don’t see how the result is good for anybody but ryan braun and the brewers, and then only in the short-term.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much how I feel too
Given that the decision is made, I really hope it was the right one based on his actual innocence. As a fan who wants the Cardinals to win I admit I’m a tiny bit disappointed that the Brewers will be better than I was previously assuming, but no matter what I’d be much happier if I could confidently say that I agree with the decision.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Given that MLB is pissed
I assume that means they screwed up somewhere in obtaining the sample or handling it.
Something procedural.
Boog would have made that play.
Such as this from above...
…that created reasonable doubt.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Heard that Braun defense was sample wasn’t shipped in timely fashion to lab and that seemed to sway arbitrator in in his favor #Brewers
I’m still going to boo him.
Boog would have made that play.
a chain of custody argument isn't a "technicality" argument
But it’s a long way from proving that braun was innocent.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 6:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
presumably the "science" part of this is that the delay in shipping
may have caused the sample to change in a way that made the test unreliable (time may cause a change in the levels of something that was being tested for – e.g., if there is a breakdown of a chemical over time)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
that's possible for some chemicals. while nobody
Who got my grades in biochem should be commenting, I’m a little skeptical that synthetic testosterone would appear in a sample simply b/c it’s unattended or unrefrigerated. But that should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
I was assuming the chain of custody claim was more that it ran the risk of being spiked or adulterated, or confused with someone else’s sample. This is why we need to have a written opinion to really judge whether Das’s decision makes sense.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 6:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My bet is that the CBA very specifically lays out
exactly how this process is supposed to go, MLB didn’t follow it (including as to timeframe for shipping samples), Das read the agreement as unambiguously requiring MLB to do something that they didn’t do, it may or may not have affected the test, but he overturned the suspension based on MLB’s failure to follow agreed, required protocols.
Just my guess based on what I’ve seen so far.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Seems more likely that it would go down in concentration.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
every decision will be 2-1, because there's only one neutral arbitrator.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
A guy named Shyam
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Feb 23, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure what you mean.
This is how most arbitration panels work. Each side picks their arbitrator and the two arbitrators pick the third, who is the neutral.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
you stating that the third one is neutral
implies the other two aren’t, which implies that their votes are already decided and the third guy’s vote is the only one that matters which necessarily means that it’s just one guy deciding the outcome.
Yes, that's right. I didn't understand the "absurdity" of that.
If this were a bench trial, just one guy (a neutral judge) would be deciding this issue.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
maybe i overstated the point
but i think that more than one neutral party voting on this would be more appropriate
that's pretty common. lots of administrative matters
Are decided before a single administrative judge or hearing officer. Some non-jury trials are heard by a single judge.
You can be deported based on the ruling of a single immigration judge, or your license can be suspended by a single hearing officer.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 6:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's a good point
but i imagine that the immigration judge has special legal training relevant to immigration laws, right? does shyam have any relevant expertise, here?
WMT says above that Das is a well-known
Labor arbitrator and links to his bio or CV.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 6:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i did see that
but i’m questioning whether that makes him qualified to be an expert in this matter. this doesn’t seem to be purely, or even primarily, labor-related
If the two "partisan" arbiters agreed on him,
who cares? Both sides with skin in the game agreed that this guy was neutral. Seems reasonably fair.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
it's fair from that perspective
but more than 1 person would improve my confidence in the accuracy of the outcome
Well, then your minimum number is three
and you have to now go and find three arbiters.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i'm surprised at how much opposition i'm seeing
on VEB and from the given people, that more data == more accurate
Well, you also have to have a manageable process
and any more than three would quickly be unmanageable for hearings, scheduling, etc.
Also, guys like Shyam typically cost $600-700/hr, so paying three guys (or more) like that starts getting expensive.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
*maybe* the logistics arguments makes sense
but we’re talking about some pretty important shit, here
MLB not having enough money is not a valid argument
My point about cost was in the general sense.
And in this case, Manfred (MLB) and Weiner (MLBPA) are salaried.
But I work on arbitrations for bigger/richer businesses than MLB over more money than what’s at stake here, and costs still matter, a lot.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
the issue is absolutely labor-related.
it’s whether MLB can suspend Braun under the terms of the CBA for the reults of this test (which includes the issue of whether MLB followed the testing rules). That’s right in the wheelhouse of labor and employment law.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, Shyam is FAR more qualfied to do this than
federal immigration judges are to do their jobs (no offense to any out there, but immigration judges don’t have the best reputations, generally).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Not to mention judges in places like texas
where you have partisan, elected judges that run based on the types of sentences they want to give out.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Also in these arbitrations you want to pick your arbitrator not just to vote your way
But hopefully to convince the neutral to vote your way. Your pick hopefully sees it your way and works to sway the neutral in your favor. This is a common arbitration practice.
It's arbitration, that's how it works
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 6:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oops
Someone already said this
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 6:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
2002 Myrtle Beach Pelicans!
Mark DeRosa!
Kelly Johnson!
Adam LaRoche!
Roman Colon!
(No idea who Roman Colon is. I just like that name.)
the weather last saturday wasn't that bad
compared to Mardi Gras of yesteryear
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 23, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
Danup...
Pledge $250 or more Pledge $250 or more
3 Backers • Limited Reward (2 of 5 remaining)
You tell us your favorite player (any player) and we’ll include a 1500 word article on his greatness in the book — even if your favorite player is Tony Womack. Plus one customized copy of the digital book, a week before it’s available for sale to the general public. And your name will be added to the Donors page, noting your support forever.
Assuming a Ray Lankford article is on the way.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I feel obligated to post this once again...
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss?"
-The Diz
by The Classical on Feb 23, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Also worth noting...
This Carpenter’s career was about as memorable as the ‘H’ in his first name…
and nobody gives a fuck about another supposed ‘Chris Carpenter’ who has been tainted with organizational ties to the Cubs and Red Sox.
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss?"
-The Diz
by The Classical on Feb 23, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
He was a punter! and a pitcher!
Fun fact: Cris Carpenter had a year of football eligibility left at UGA but signed with the Cardinals instead!
To me this looks like Teemu Selanne with a Rasmustache.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
It just is getting worse and worse..
David Schoenfield @dschoenfield Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Urge you to read updated newser. Braun didn’t appeal evidence of tampering or science. Argued protocol not followed
@karlravech Braun won because a courier didn’t take test to fedex. Thought it was closed Sat. night.
Why is everyone so pissed over this?
Yeah, this certainly doesn’t help our standings in the playoff race, but what if it is the truth and the sample was tampered with? Or what if Braun actually had herpes (or whatnot) and it affected his sample?
We at VEB have no evidence whatsoever except for the crap that the press feeds us. I’m sure the judges deliberated this case and it wasn’t just a snap judgement. So, calm down, people. We have no right to be angry without hard facts.
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 23, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
this
I’ll let Calcaterra take it away:
In almost all cases, the people who say that someone "got off on a technicality" or took advantage of a "loophole" really mean "I think the SOB was guilty and because of that I don’t care if the proper safeguards and protocols were followed!" It’s a ridiculous stance.
Ridiculous because procedures such as chain of custody and the proper handling of samples — which were not followed in Braun’s case — exist for a reason.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/23/ryan-braun-got-off-on-a-technicality-bull/
This is dumb
Braun got off on a technicality. He did not get off on a loophole. Those words don’t mean the same thing.
A technicality just means it’s a small detail of a larger set of rules and regulations. Or, in the words of the dictionary:
A point of law or a small detail of a set of rules
Braun challenged that one step of a set of rules about the handling of samples, and not the results of the sample itself. As such, he was exonerated due to a technicality.
Just because it’s a technicality doesn’t make a judgment about whether Braun did steroids or did not do steroids. What it means is that the decision to exonerate was forced to ignore the issue of whether Braun’s sample tested positive because protocol was breached.
I should add
That if protocol was breached, then the exoneration is absolutely the correct decision. I don’t disagree with the ruling.
I should also add that because the decision had to be based on a technicality, the ruling really tells us nothing about whether or not Braun did steroids. He is neither proven guilty nor proven innocent, inasmuch as such a thing is possible. Essentially the whole thing is thrown out because the evidence is cast into doubt.
Wasn't this a second positive test?
IE, a re-test due to a first failed test?
Yes, both could have been compromised, tampered, false positives.
In PED cases, it is standard practice to use two samples before "convicting"
to help guard against false positives.
So, even if sample 1 is positive, if sample 2 is negative, in most systems I believe, the athlete will not face further consequences.
Couldn't we also phrase this as "the ruling tells us nothing except that there is no reason at all to think he did not do steroids"?
I mean, if you’re arguing that since the ruling was about procedural stuff and not the drug test itself, and therefore we are wise to take a neutral position about whether he actually did PEDs, I get that. But why are you stating it in terms of him specifically not doing it, rather than saying “we can’t know either way based on this ruling”?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I disagree
this isn’t a court of law. I know plenty of steroid users in the MLB who haven’t been proven to taken steroids.
Grit != flat out sucking.
just to point out
I disagree with this part:
He is neither proven guilty nor proven innocent, inasmuch as such a thing is possible
While he wasn’t neither proven guilty nor innocent. When you try to get off on a technicality as your defense for something like a drug test, I’m going to have to go ahead and assume your guilty.
Unless, there is reason to believe the carrier decided to tamper with the second test.
Grit != flat out sucking.
he did not deny substance was in his system
hence he is guilty of having said substance in his system
he was not punished for this because a low-level courier failed in his punctuality, and hence claim of improper use was dismissed
12 in 12, thank you very much
And even if it were...
Juries don’t decide chain-of-custody evidentiary issues, judges do.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 24, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
If you don't deny a specific claim
It’s true!
Have you ever denied killing a woman in 1990? YOU DID IT!
I'm all in favor of the Fourth Amendment and the exclusionary rule
And all that goes along with it. But this wasn’t a criminal case, ryan braun wasn’t going to jail, and nobody is arguing that the testing agent took the sample home in bad faith. Craig is over-lawyering on this. Procedure and good practice are important, but they’re not the only thing.
The real question, it seems to me, is whether the elevated level of testosterone and the presence of synthetic testosterone more likely than not came from braun. I suspect it is far more likely that the elevated testosterone levels came from braun’s original sample than from subsequent contamination.
Now, if it’s a contractual issue regarding the CBA, the arbitrator’s hands may well have been tied.
But I don’t think that this chain of custody issue seriously disrupts the legitimacy of the test.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 23, 2012 10:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
wat?
It’s not a ridiculous stance at all. A drug test showed he was positive for PEDs and Braun got off on a technicality. What’s the margin of error on that test? 2%? Ok, I’ll only admit to 98% certainty he did it then.
Based on a recent Supreme Court ruling, drug offenders can have their convictions overturned if the lab technician who ran the drug purity test doesn’t testify at trial. So someone can be caught with a bag of white powder, that a lab test reveals to be cocaine, and can still get off because the lab technician wasn’t available at trial to testify as to the integrity of the testing process. Sure, the guy got off, but is it “ridiculous” to think, “gee, that guy probably had some drugs.”
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Fundamentally, Calcaterra's argument if you follow the link amounts to
semantics. He’s saying that procedural issues aren’t technicalities. He concedes that the ruling tells us little about Braun’s PED (non)habits
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
The right to test and punish based on results is contingent upon the agreed upon procedures being followed.
My bet is that the procedures weren’t followed in some manner; therefore, MLB lost its contractual right to punish.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
"but what if it is the truth and the sample was tampered with?"
As this guy on twitter said- @aagold3: I’ve heard of tons of FedEx burglars injecting urine samples with testosterone.
We have enough evidence here to see how it went down regarding the argument of chain of custody. Its a technicality, and the guy clearly got away with taking some substance. And yeah the reason its frustrating to me is purely because it helps the Brewers. I couldn’t care less over the morality of Ryan Braun.
Also, Fanura-Wada said on ESPN radio
That he had previously tested high for testosterone and this was the follow up test. So even if someone tampered with the test, why did he test high earlier?
Do you honestly think that they simply overlooked such details in the hearing?
I’m sure it has its faults, but you guys are seriously undermining the MLBPA. This is the biggest hearing they’ve had in a while; do you think they didn’t consider everything when they made the decision?
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 23, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
No not at all. I think they properly found that MLB failed to follow the procedures in the CBA and that Braun could therefore not be suspended.
I also believe Braun likely used PEDs.
Yup.
Criminals can get off on search and seizure violations, but it doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 23, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Right
On the other hand, getting off on procedural grounds is not the same thing as being proven guilty and let off anyway, either.
This whole thing stinks. I don’t like ambiguous results.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Barring us all hearing the specifics of the testing, what substance it was, etc.
It was still going to be “ambiguous” then. The arbitrator doesn’t determine Truth, he just picks a side. Sometimes he’s right, sometimes he’s wrong. This situation wouldn’t be less ambiguous IMO if Shyam affirmed the decision.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 24, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, I'm sure it wasn't that simple...
Do we really have enough evidence to know what happened? Far from it. All we have are small 140-character snippets from reporters who are trying to create controversy. I’m not denying that this whole ordeal is frustrating, but what I’m saying is that the people who made the decision were the people who were most informed about the situation. And, it’s not like they picked up three homeless people off the street to be the judges; these guys knew what they were doing.
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 23, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
also read passan's timeline for some quotes from the USADA CEO
Jeff Passan @JeffPassan Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
USADA CEO Travis Tygart tells Y! Sports of the Braun decision: “It’s frankly unreal. And it’s a kick in the gut to clean athletes.”
USADA CEO Travis Tygart says it’s commonplace for collectors to keep samples refrigerated when taken late at night and on holidays, weekends
Tygart: “The DCO (doping control officer) keeps it with them. These are well-trained people whose job it is to maintain it. I’m stunned.”
Trying to gather information from the USADA CEO is like learning about North Korea from their Central News Agency
This guy is already biased; Passan just wants to stir things up by tweeting these
By gosh!
by hr on Feb 23, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
anyone who follows my twitter knows i have some love sick dude texting me thinking i'm his X
well i just had this pic sent to me, apparently they’re teenagers. i f’ing hate teenagers.
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
by gdm426 on Feb 23, 2012 6:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
can't wait to watch this play out as a tyler durden sort of thing
by prophetjohn on Feb 23, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
the idiot is calling me now
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
Hahahahaha
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
this.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
definitely
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
the way im seeing it
Seems like a guy would be sending that particular letter to someone via twitter today in 2012… the chick wrote him that letter in 09 and now is dumping him or cheating or whatever and now he’s trying to show her stuff like this from back when.. but I think he needs to find the right girl to tweet to
by lauderdale on Feb 23, 2012 8:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
think he's trying to win her back by showing her this note she wrote him almost 3yrs ago
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
10/7/09
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
I TOLD you to tell him he had the wrong number!
Hahaha gl.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
dude called like 5min after i got the pic, so i hoping he listened to the vm greeting
and realizes i’m not the chick he’s looking for. i’m getting f’ing pissed off at this point. i’ve had this number for 12 f’ing years, if he really likes this chick, the punk should know what her f’ing number is
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
you might not be the chick he's looking for
but you might be the chick he should be looking for.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
send him a picture of your junk
by CaptainYesterday on Feb 23, 2012 6:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
i'm not doing that again
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
yeah, I saw your junk pop up on my porn perusing the other day
and i was not pleased.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
i've tried everything to get all the pics taken down
but once it’s out there, it will always be out there. the internet is forever
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
TEST TEST TEST TEST
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
why is this a blank post
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Feb 23, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
testing, brah
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
APPEAL APPEAL APPEAL APPEAL
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oquendo!!!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Feb 23, 2012 8:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wait...
I don’t think that picture is from 1985.
Oquendo wasn’t on the team in 1985. He spent the whole year in Louisville.
holy crap.
Oquendo was already in low A when he was 15
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
also, how the hell did he ever make the majors?
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
71 walks as a 17 year old not too shabby.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
and then only 75 from ages 18-21
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
85..
and he missed most of 2 seasons, but still
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
oh..nvm
he was in the majors
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 23, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
wha?
oh nevermind. carry on
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Feb 23, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Bad news for fellow Uverse subscribers
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 23, 2012 8:28 PM EST reply actions
Cardinals645 and Tehzakatak (?) there is now room for you guys in the ESPN keeper league, let me know
if you’d like to join.
First of you two to respond gets Fink’s team.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
It's a good one, gents.
Lots of sweet long-term keeper possibilities.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
Sorry to hear you're leaving VEL also.
I was all geared up for battle against your lone batsman.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I was planning on 3 leagues, and that's the one I think I'll most regret leaving.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
why you dropping out?
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Going fantasy-free for the baseball season.
I watch games differently when I have a fantasy interest, and I’d like to… not.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
this is fair.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
If you're fishing for an "it is what it is"
then you can just keep right on fishing, buddy. You won’t find it here. Nope.
Also, me too.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 23, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 23, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
winner!
I’ll need your email address to send you an invite.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I sent you an e-mail with Cardinals645 as the subject line.
I totally spaced out though, so idk what I put in the message.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
When should I be looking for it?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
Postal Service just upgraded from horses,
so probably a week.
by RasmustheRipper on Feb 24, 2012 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
not yet, there are some guys in the league I've sent emails to about 5 times now over the last month though
that I’m considering dropping. The cow is lucky he posted today as well.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
also there's an odd number of teams so adding a team wouldn't be much of a problem, but I doubt I'd need
to do that since there are 2-3 teams I’m still not 100% that are returning.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
It appears that Joe Torre's group has dropped out of buying the dodgers
this is also the group that included the Rams owner Stan Kroenke, correct?
Grit != flat out sucking.
Herro
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Oh, y'know
Just got done drinking scotch and watching Archer with a buddy
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I think I sold my friend on it tonight
Just a quality, quality show
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Easily my favorite comedy on TV right now.
Might be my favorite show but I would hate to have to chose between it and House.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
What channel and time is it on?
Or are those antiquated questions?
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
FX Thursday Nights 9:00
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I don't believe I've ever turned to the FX channel in my life.
I’ll look for it next week if I remember!
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
I stopped watching House
what happened with Taub’s babies?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
he realised they bore him, they haven't been on for a while&probably won't be
they said this is the final year & i think that’s a good decision. at this point they’re just rehashing old ideas & stories
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
That was a 2-3 episode thing.
The most recent mini-arc with Chase was excellent. Chase has long been my favorite non-House character on the show.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I always liked Foreman
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
racist
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 25, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
she's invisible dude, that's as white as it gets
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 26, 2012 6:18 AM EST up reply actions
You really think you could get me off on probation?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 11:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just the Glenlivet 12
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Good for a 22 year old trying to pretend to be sophisticated
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
aren't we all trying to pretend to be sophisticated?
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
oh you were watching with a buddy?
that’s good to hear, or else we would have just assumed you were some loser..
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
I don't get the point of this comment
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
it's a thinker
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 24, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
He seems to be suggesting that the information regarding the company with whom you watched the television program "Archer" is superfluous.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
whaddup rui?
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 23, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Rui has inspired me to drink,
and I’ve chosen almost the bottom of my bottle of 2011 WS Redbreast. So good. The last bit will wait until opening day.
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Feb 23, 2012 11:09 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
how many times have you talked about this and i made a breasts joke
too many for me to do it again?
by prophetjohn on Feb 23, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
i've looked everywhere for this up here & i still can't find it
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
keep looking
Leave favorite memories of Jim Edmonds here
by a fink on Feb 24, 2012 12:42 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
i think i'm going to have to buy it online, i'm OK with that
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
bootlegger brown ale is real good, you guys don't even know
this is the second night in a row i’ve had one. am i an alcoholic
Maybe
Question, when you press your thumb against your pointer finger, does the area in between bulge? If yes, then you should probably see a doctor
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
two nights in a row?
it’s already too late to do anything. Accept your fate and start checking out the real estate under your local railroad bridges.
pretty sure MIA
had about 35 dunks on knicks
by guillermozeliak on Feb 23, 2012 11:30 PM EST reply actions
Wait, did she flip them off too
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Feb 23, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I swear to god I will cut you if you start that back up
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Feb 23, 2012 11:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cut you a slice of cake!
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
who doesn't love cake?
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
Nobody, that's who.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
i'm a pie man myself, but i do love me some cake
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
There's no reason you can't have both once you become an adult.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
FWIW, I definitely thought this was the rapper, too
Pet peeve of mine: people using different ways of describing teams in one sentence.
MIA —> NY
Heat —> Knicks
Pick one! Grabbolsalodjakdlanfjdkfibeoi
agreed.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 24, 2012 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
I dub this the "NY times crossword puzzle rule"
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 24, 2012 1:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
is it pathetic I remember the clue to this one?
“cheese that’s made backwards.” Very clever, Will Shortz. Very Clever.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Wonder if the Braun panel cares to review Albert's contract with the Angels in case there was tampering. . . .
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
I'm not sure what that would accomplish
But assuming they DID find tampering, it would only create nightmarish stomach aches for Bud Selig, the Angels, AP, and somehow probably the Cardinals. He’s in Cali now. Let’s just be happy for him, mmmk?
i was just gonna say
please see the rec’d post earlier
by guillermozeliak on Feb 24, 2012 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, trying to be droll. Let Albert go. I was merely attempting to point out the fact that nothing seems certain - excpet uncertainty. .
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
did ya'll hear the Danny Mac interview yesterday morning?
i haven’t heard him talk this openly about his problem. i hope he can stay clean
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
good for him
but i still can’t fathom that he still holds a job while that “chink in the armor” guy lost his
by guillermozeliak on Feb 24, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
i'm not surprised. the team protects their own & almost always gives more than one second chance
he seems to be genuinely sorry for the DUI’s and he’s made drastic changes to his life that seem to prove he’s telling the truth.
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
One's a personal failure that was relatively private.
The other was a very visible public gaffe and involved race. People have more sympathy for the former.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Not to mention the personal connection he makes with people on a daily basis during the season
People feel like they know who Dan McLaughlin is, which creates sympathy. The headline writer is some unknown person for whom the general public has no in-built sympathy.
Yea, this is probably a better point than mine, actually.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
dammit...
i was digging the interview and then he said he liked the skip signing.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 24, 2012 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
You think Skip Schumaker's not going to replace Albert's bat?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
yeah i don't understand why the Cards media loves Skippy
i think they’ve all seen him in the shower too many times or something
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
and then totally redeemed himself
by saying the third inning is his favorite to broadcast, because “that’s when Al leaves,” and then (jokingly) insinuating that being partnered with Al caused his alcoholism. I knew I always liked Dan.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
if you had to spend 9 innings with Al every damn day for 162 days you'd be an alcoholic too
There is no greater sorrow than to recall in misery the time when we were happy
Cardinal spawn in top 24!
On American idol…
Yes, I watch that show, sad I know, but it has Cardinal spawn, and it’s the offseason. Joe Magrane himself has been on twice, for at least 10 seconds total, plus reruns of his reaction to Steven Tyler.
I am going to vote for Shannon Magrane every week.
by Chocobot on Feb 24, 2012 1:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I don't watch, but I'm pretty sure The Wizard's son was on it a few years back and did pretty well.
Final 8 or something I think.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 24, 2012 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
He was and he kind of did.
iirc, he got voted off but then was brought back because that one guy quit because he was banging Paula or something. So Ozzie’s kid came back and promptly got voted off the next week.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Wow.
I really like Lance Berkman, you guys. I’m quite conflicted about this.
by Cheeseandcorn on Feb 24, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Still. Glorious 'stache.
Also, it’s hard to tell with the black shirt, but I think he’s dropped some weight.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 24, 2012 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
like a lot of weight.
I had no idea who it was until I clicked the link to the fanshot.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
MOTHER OF GOD.
Al: You know what they call a butterfly without wings Dan?
Dan: ...What, Al?
Al: A Butter-walk!
Dan:..........
by liars&thieves on Feb 24, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
The is a new sheriff in town, who apparently is from the deep south
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
When's the next Lady Wolfpack game?
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
ok, that's just awesome.
> tebow
by cschepers on Feb 24, 2012 11:27 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
i can't stand it, i know you planned it
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
That's fantastic camerawork.
Kind of waiting for a monster to eat him at the end.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
How did people do Spring Training before Twitter
With better quality media, probably
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
No, we just waited for sporadic reports
via the evening news and KMOX.
Retire #52!
by The Continental on Feb 24, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Thought people might enjoy
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Feb 24, 2012 10:04 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Maybe he is angling for a GG at 1B, and thinks going the full Hernandez is the secret.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by TomCat009 on Feb 24, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
COLBY
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 24, 2012 10:39 AM EST reply actions
Looks a little bigger?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
sebek (and i) was more going after the hair.
taking copious amounts of undeserved crap since early 2006
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 24, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think Sebek has any room to go after guys for their hair
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Thank God.
Lets keep all Ryan Braun procedural drama in this one.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Viva El Birdos
Related FanShots on Viva El Birdos
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
