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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

The 2004 St. Louis Cardinals Pitching Staff: A Jewel of the Duncan Era

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The 2004 season was one of the greatest in the storied history of the St. Louis Cardinals franchise. After a disappointing 2003 season, the Cardinals took off like a rocket ship and soared into the stratosphere with 105 wins. The MV3 received top billing that magical season and has deservedly established itself amongst the legends of Cardinals lore. Scott Rolen posted 9.2 fWAR that season; Pujols, 8.4; and Edmonds, 8.2. The trio's collective 25.8 fWAR was equal to the 2004 Red Sox hitters fWAR and better than the cumulative fWAR posted by 19 MLB teams.

With that gaudy offense, it's no wonder that the 2004 Cardinals' pitching staff has faded into the background as time has passed. This is a shame because the that staff was perhaps the finest of the Dave Duncan era. Last week we looked at a fundamental principle of Duncanism, throwing first-pitch strikes. The 2004 staff threw first-pitch strikes at a 59% clip, which ranked eighth in Major League Baseball. That staff was a collection of pitching democrats, as well, leading the big leagues in ground ball percentage at 48.2%. While their 4.17 FIP was good (tying for eighth in MLB), the group's ERA was the lowest in baseball at 3.74. The performance of the 2004 Cardinals pitchers was neither starting rotation nor bullpen heavy; it was a solid combination of the two.

Star-divide

The starting rotation consisted of a piece of scrap off the heap with a bum shoulder, two declining pitchers, a newly acquired youngster attempting to harness his potential, and a free agent innings eater. Unlike more recent incarnations of the Cardinals rotation, the 2004 group had no ace head and shoulders above the rest. Chris Carpenter emerged as the group's best pitcher with a 3.7-fWAR season. Woody Williams was second best with 2.7 fWAR, followed by Jason Marquis (1.9 fWAR), Jeff Suppan (1.3 fWAR), and Matt Morris (1.1 fWAR). This rotation's 4.07 ERA would rank fourth in the major leagues which was a bit better than their collective 4.43 FIP which ranked eleventh. It was a rotation most Duncanian.

CHRIS CARPENTER

Prior to 2004, Carpenter threw 73.1 innings for the Blue Jays. In 2002. The Cardinals signed Carpenter after the 2002 season but, due to the shoulder injury that cut short his 2002 season, he missed all of 2003. In 2004, he made 28 starts for the Cardinals, totaled 182 IP and posted a K rate of 7.52, a walk rate of 1.88, an ERA of 3.41, a FIP of 3.85 and 3.2 fWAR even though his season ended prematurely. (Carp made his final start on September 18 against the Diamondbacks, threw 47 pitches over 3.1 innings, and did not pitch again until 2005.)

As we look back from where we currently sit, in the burgeoning pitching renaissance that is the 2010s, some perspective on his ERA may be needed. That 3.41 ERA with Busch II as his home park in the heady days of aught-four was good for a 124 ERA+. Compare this to his 3.21 ERA in 2010 with Busch III as his home park (120 ERA+) or last season's 3.45 (105 ERA+). In 2004, Carpenter was good and provided fans with glimpses of the brilliance he would later show in winning the 2005 Cy Young Award.

WOODY WILLIAMS

In 2003, Williams was at the height of Duncan-induced sorcery. At the age of 36, he put up the following line: 220.2 IP, 6.24 K/9, 2.24 BB/9, 3.87 ERA, 3.72 FIP. For some run environment context, Woody's ERA+ was 106 that year. He was worth 4.2 fWAR. Williams was aging and declining (like all players not named Barry Bonds do) but the pugnacious Williams still had a solid 2004 even if it could be a textbook example of age-induced decline as compared to 2003: 189.2 IP, 6.22 K/9, 2.74 BB/9, 4.18 ERA, 4.10 FIP, 2.7 fWAR. (Ray Lankford was also on the 2004 Cardinals, I might add, so even DanUp could enjoy the final season Williams would pitch for the Cardinals.)

JASON MARQUIS

Marquis entered 2004 about as big a question mark as Carpenter but for different reasons. Whereas health was the concern with Carp, mental wherewithal was the worry with Marquis. He had pitched fairly well for the Braves over 16 starts in 2001 but rather badly over 22 starts in 2002 so the Braves shifted him to the bullpen in 2003 where he posted an even worse ERA than the year before. Apparently Duncan saw something he liked in Marquis (likely the kinda-high walk rate and sinker) so the Cards acquired him in addition to lefty reliever Ray King, and some prospect named Adam Wainwright for J.D. Drew before the season. In year one under Duncan's tutelage, Marquis seemed to blossom, posting the following line: 32 GS, 201.1 IP, 6.27 K/9, 3.13 BB/9, 55.2% GB rate, 3.71 ERA, 4.55 FIP, 1.9 fWAR.

JEFF SUPPAN

I loved the Jeff Suppan signing. Loved it. WAR didn't exist back then and I didn't know of VORP or Win Shares, but I knew Suppan posted a decent ERA and gobbled up innings. If fWAR had been around, I'd have really loved the signing. Here are Suppan's fWAR for the five seasons before joining St. Louis: 3.2, 2.6, 3.3, 2.3, and 3.0. That's a consistently valuable pitcher right there. Naturally Suppan fell off a bit in and had the first of three consecutive not-quite-2.0-fWAR seasons in 2004: 31 GS, 188 IP, 5.27 K/9, 3.31 BB/9, 4.19 ERA, 4.29 FIP, 1.7 fWAR. Honestly, though, about all we remember of Suppan that season is Game 7 of the NLCS when he beat Roger Clemens (with an assist from Jim Edmonds), isn't it?

MATT MORRIS

It will always be 2001 in my mind when I think of Matt Morris. What an incredible season. 34 GS, 200+ IP, 7.70 K/9, 2.25 BB/9, 3.16 ERA, 3.05 FIP, 6.0 fWAR, and going pitch for pitch with Curt Schilling in games 1 and 5 of the NLDS. That season was Morris's flash of brilliance. Sure, he would have a 4.6-fWAR the following year but that was the start of his decline. He would post a 2.7-fWAR 2003 and would only fill out the back end of the rotation at the young age of 29 in 2004, a season that would be the first of five consecutive seasons of an ERA over 4.00 for Morris. Of course, we must remember that it was a different run environment and the work horse provided some value even with his slightly below-average ERA: 32 GS, 202 IP, 5.84 K/9, 2.50 BB/9, 51.3% GB rate (the highest of his career), 4.72 ERA, 4.93 FIP, 1.1 fWAR.

Star-divide

The Cardinals led the majors with a bullpen ERA of 3.01 and finished second to the Angels in bullpen FIP at 3.62 (despite the Angels pen striking out over a batter an inning to the Cardinals' 6.97 strikeouts per nine innings). The bullpen was built around closer Jason Isringhausen, who was in the midst of an impressive career peak, with a motley crew of arms that found a role they could fulfill under the coaching of La Russa, Duncan, and bullpen coach Marty Mason. Even though the Cardinals bullpenners didn't strike out as many opposing batters (their sub-7.0 K rate ranked 16th in MLB), they hardly walked anyone--leading MLB in bullpen BB/9 with a measly 2.83 rate. The bullpen consisted of a core six--Isringhausen, Cal Eldred, Julian Tavarez, Ray King, Steve Kline, and Kiko Calero--with a revolving door in the seventh spot until it was ultimately filled by a rookie then known as Danny Haren.

JASON ISRINGHAUSEN

Isringhausen's greatest season was his first with "STL" on his cap. In 2002, he was lights out--2.45 ERA, 1.95 FIP, 2.5 fWAR, and, most DIPSily, Izzy did not allow a single homer. But his peak carried through the 2004 season in which he threw the most innings of his career (75.1) and rung up 47 saves, tying Lee Smith for the single season Cardinals record. Izzy struck out 8.48 batters per nine innings, issued 2.75 walks per nine, posted a 2.87 ERA, 3.02 FIP, and 1.8 fWAR. Isringhausen's excellence was the foundation of the 2004 bullpen.

JULIAN TAVAREZ

Prior to 2004 I knew Tavarez for one thing: his altercation with Matt Morris at Wrigley Field on Sunday Night Baseball when Morris took exception to him not running hard out of the box after putting the ball in play. In 2004, Tavarez immediately won me over with the disgusting movement on his pitches that was reminiscent of video game. Soon my friends and I were referring to him as Zorro because he was crazy --even if he wasn't loco como un zorro but just crazy. Tavarez was excellent for the Cardinals in the fireman role in 2004: 64.1 IP, 6.72 K/9, 2.66 BB/9, 2.38 ERA, 2.92 FIP, and 1.3 fWAR. The following season he pitched well but not as well and then continued on his journeyman career pitching for five teams before his MLB career came to a sad end in 2009 when he was designated for assignment by the Nationals.

KIKO CALERO

Calero burst onto the scene in 2003 with the combination of electric stuff and wonderful name that made him seem destined for the pantheon of Cardinals relievers. Sadly, his 2003 season was cut short by a freak leg injury after only 38.1 innings. Calero returned in 2004, his electric repertoire intact, and with newfound control that made him an even more lethal weapon out of the bullpen. Watching him pitch made me feel like Steve Irvin when he would come across a particularly rare and lethal creature. Have a look at this rare Puerto Rican Calero! 9.33 K/9, 1.99 BB/9, 2.78 ERA, 3.14 FIP, and 0.8 fWAR! It is no wonder than many folks thought his inclusion in the Mulder trade made the bounty sent to the A's too much and still more Cards fans were clamoring for the front office to sign him after the 2009 season.

RAY KING

King arrived in St. Louis and immediately formed one of the more effective LOOGY tag teams of the La Russa/Duncan era. He appeared in 86 games but threw just 62 innings in 2004. In those innings, he posted the following line: 5.81 K/9, 3.48 BB/9, 2.61 ERA, 3.27 FIP, and 0.9 fWAR. This was his best big league season and after the 2005 season he would be a part in the trade with the Rockies that brought the Cardinals Aaron Miles.

STEVE KLINE

Kline was a solid lefty reliever from 1998 through 2002 who succumbed to reliever volatility in 2003. His consistent K/BB rate fell from about 2.0 to 1.03 that season. In 2004, he bounced back--as reliever are wont to do. Because of his colorful personality and dirty cap, us fans were happy to see this. In the role of LOOGY No. 2 (if they were a professional wrestling tag team, Ray King would have started the match), he made 67 appearances and tallied 50.1 IP with the following line: 6.26 K/9, 3.04 BB/9, 1.79 ERA, 3.68 FIP, and 0.5 fWAR. The aforementioned colorful personality was a bit disagreeable with manager Tony La Russa. The two feuded on occasion, which added some spice to the season. In June, Kline flipped La Russa the bird from the bullpen during a game and the manager threatened to go to the bullpen and stomp on Kline's chest. The southpaw would pitch for the Orioles in 2005 and be out of Major League Baseball by 2008.

CAL ELDRED

Eldred joined the Cardinals in 2003 after having his 2001 cut incredibly short by an injury that would also keep him from pitching in the 2002 season. Eldred posted a 3.74 ERA, 4.34 FIP, and 0.1 fWAR over 67.1 innings. In 2004, he repeated these numbers in uncanny fashion. Even though his strikeout and walk rates fell, his final 2004 line was 67 IP, 3.76 ERA, 4.38 FIP, and 0.1 fWAR. Eldred is a shining example of a replacement reliever.

RELIEVER NO. 7

A parade of relievers saw time in this role during that season. The group included Mike Lincoln (17.1 IP), Jason Simontacchi (15.1), Randy Flores (11.0), Carmen Cali (7.0), Al Reyes (7.1), and even pitching Rick Ankiel(10.0). Danny Haren emerged as the seventh bullpener. Haren made 12 starts for the Cardinals in the pitching disaster that was 2003 and posted a bloated 5.03 ERA (4.57 FIP) as a 22 year old. He started five games for the Cardinals in 2004--most of which after Carpenter was shut down--but also made nine appearances as a reliever, which was the role he would fill in the postseason. In the 20.2 innings he threw as a reliever, he posted a 2.61 ERA, but with a 4.40 FIP due to only striking out out 5.66 batters per nine while posting a 3.48 walk rate.

Star-divide

The 2004 Cardinals pitching staff featured a steady rotation that ate innings while pitching at a level about league average or higher with results that ranked in the game's top five. Their effectiveness allowed the bullpen to operate within the comfort zone of defined roles and lead the big leagues in ERA (even with the seventh spot in flux). This has long been the formula for an effective pitching staff during the La Russa/Duncan era. Even if oft-overshadowed by the MV3-led offense, the 2004 pitching staff is one of the jewels of the era in St. Louis Cardinals history that just came to an end.

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I’m quietly rooting for Bernie Williams and his chances to get in the HOF today. I think he is very much a long-shot. But if he scores well (or eventually succeeds) he becomes an excellent comp for Jim Edmonds and his HOF shot.

As for today’s story, I’m struck by the difference between the 2004 relief corps, and the likely 2012 relief team. I’m not going to check ages, but I bet our current collection of relievers are on average are about 5-7 years younger…

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 7:18 AM EST reply actions  

I totally get what you're saying

But I also hope that this fallacy is not necessary. Edmonds was a better hitter and a better fielder… but zomg Bernie Williams wuz post-seazun hero.

Basically, Williams getting in would give me more hope for Edmonds, and I suppose that’s good. But I think Williams might fall just short of deserving it, and I hope that him not getting in doesn’t hurt Edmonds’ chances, because that would be a shame.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Jimmy Ballgame was a pretty big postseason hero too

both with his bat and with his glove.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess that's true

I’m just trying to guess why he is kept out. I’m not even assuming Williams will make it in, either. You never know.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's my guess on Jimmy's chance

A large part of the Hall voters are more of the hall of extended careers than the hall of great peak players. Edmonds had an amazing peak that just looks better and better since advance stats have become more popular. His OPS, his walk rates, his ISO, were all spectacular during his peak. Add in that he was the best center of his peak this side of a young Andruw Jones, and he had a 10 year run that was very Hall worthy.

But he was hurt a lot (due a LOT to his amazing defense), and he just didn’t accumulate the stats that a lot of voters want to see. The hit numbers aren’t there. The homer total just isn’t there, and (again thanks to Andruw Jones and Ken Griffey Junior) he wasn’t recognized as a trancendent defensive player.

If voters measured careers like Tim Kurkjian does, Jimmy is in the Hall without question. Pick a player’s 10 year peak, and use that as criteria.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think only 5% is required.

He’ll make that no question.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

8, but yea

The list of guys that are in the same tier as Edmonds offensively and have >6 GGs but are not in the Hall is pretty much nil. Larry Walker is the most comparable, or Dwight Evans. But Walker played in Coors, Evans’ SLG is way lower, and neither played CF. I think Edmonds has a good shot at getting in.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Sadly I think Edmonds doesn't make it

Sad, because he’s possibly one of the top 10 CF of all time and (IMO) should definitely be in.

(Full disclosure – also my favourite all-time Cardinal).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Edmonds was way better than Williams

tbh, I don’t think it’s even close. Better peak, better all-round career.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

So I guess in a roundabout way

I’m saying Edmonds should be in and Williams has no business being anywhere near the HOF unless he buys a ticket.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

+1.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Must be a fan, not a realist

Bernie Williams deserves to be in the HOF about as much as Don Mattingly and only Yankee fans believe that. Seriously, Williams falls way short of being in contention. Only because he played in NY is his name even being mentioned. Jim Edmonds is/was/and always will be the better of the two players.

by Wileyvet on Jan 9, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

bernie actually has a decent case

unless you believe he really was the worst defensive center fielder in baseball not just at the end of his career but as early as 1996. edmonds has a better case, but bernie isn’t don mattingly.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 9, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Man, Carmen Cali and Al Reyes

Haven’t heard those names in a while.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 8:14 AM EST reply actions  

This team is also a really interesting contrast to the 2011 Phillies

Similar win total, completely different way of achieving it. Also, the Phillies had a surprisingly low cumulative WAR number (24.1, less than the mythical MV3 and only 13th in the majors in 2011).

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 8:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow, that low WAR is a surprise

I guess they didn’t get much out of their “star” players (Rollins, Utley and Howard) and were pretty reliant on the rotation.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Utley and Victorino missed fairly large chunks of the season due to injury.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm reminded of Al Reyes

anytime I watch a movie with Danny Trejo in it.

by openside on Jan 9, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

future closer Al Reyes

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

My favorite year to "watch" as an adult.

Living in western PA (in the pre-MLB.tv era) I was able to watch only what ESPN, TBS, or WGN would broadcast on occasion. Yet every single morning it was a pleasure to come into work, scan the box score then read the recap of every game. It really felt like a summer where we simply never lost after that rough April. And then getting Walker post-trade deadline seemed like the icing on the cake. Good times.

What I remember most about the pitching staff was Izzy. Seems so long ago now but I loved the few years where he seemed unstoppable.

by paposse on Jan 9, 2012 8:34 AM EST reply actions  

Are you ready for 3D TV?

Pappose, I remember those days of ESPN, TBS and WGN also but take a
look at this short video and see what is coming down the pike soon
on your TV and cumputer screen.

Imagine watching Motte’s fastball,and hooking drives down the foul
lines. Bet we will be getting more shots of pitches from behind the
plate. Might even see smaller home plate umpires so they won’t restrict
the view. Times are changing fast. Maybe to fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=EEu42L0ufBY

by ridgesee on Jan 9, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I watched a football game in 3d earlier this year and it was very cool.

The screen has so much more depth. It is really cool when they are down along the sidelines.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 9, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I watched at least 150 games that season

probably more. And every single game I felt the Cardinals had a chance to win going in, because the MV3 was that fucking awesome. I remember being in a dingy bar in Mattoon when I heard the news about the Walker trade. I remember being drunk out of my mind for Games 6 and 7 of the NLCS at my house in Murphysboro.I remember being an usher at a friend’s wedding in Toledo on the day of Game 1 of the World Series, and after all of the formalities were over, spending the rest of the reception in the bar watching the game instead of hanging around listening to stupid wedding music. I remember the rest of the series, but I’ve tried to forget it…

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember coming home from work one late Apr or May and the Cards were playing the Cubs and the game was on

Armed Forces Network in Europe, I think it might have been the first Cards game I had seen that year, the Cards were down when I got home something like 7 or 8 to one and soon after I started watching, this was like maybe the 3rd or 4th inning, they were down 9 to 1 … wife was telling me to turn it off, and I’m like, no … this team can score like 10 runs at will. I’m watching. Needless to say, I took great pleasure announcing the score to her out in the kitchen while the Cards were on their way to a comeback win.

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That wasn't pre-MLB.tv

I remember watching nearly every game on MLB.tv after work. The quality sucked back then, but it existed.

by outraged on Jan 10, 2012 8:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh what a juggernaut that

team seemed to be. Along with the 1985 team, one of the two best Cardinal teams I personally followed. Of course, both came to ugly ends but …

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2012 8:52 AM EST reply actions  

What are you talking about?

The 2004 Cardinals were the NL champs! Too bad the WS was cancelled…

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

2004 seemed like the first year that really had a stacked team.

Being born in 1983 my everyday following of the Cardinals coincided with the La Russa era. In my head the 96, 98, 01, and 03 were super thin. 2004’s pitching staff was solid and a good vet/youth mix. And the batting lineup especially after the acquisition of Walker was spectacular.

by openside on Jan 9, 2012 9:01 AM EST reply actions  

2001 was pretty not thin. Pujols, Drew, and Edmonds were like an MV3-Lite. And Morris! Kile! Super weirdly good Woody Williams! Even weirder pretty good Dustin Hermanson!

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

You're right, however in key spots it seemed like

Morris, Kile, Edmonds, Albert and the eleventy dwarves. But that was 2001, perception =/= reality. At that point in my head boobies still felt like bags of sand.

by openside on Jan 9, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Kile is another Duncan gem

He was good in Houston, but stunk in COL even on the road (5.89 ERA in 99 on the road). Then he comes to St Louis and had a total ERA of 3.91in 2000.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Let's not get crazy here.

Kile was a 2-time all star and finished in top 5 of Cy Young before coming to the Cards.

Leaving Colorade is what saved Kile, not Duncan.

Kile had serious pitching skillz. Duncan did not magically convert him.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 9, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

oh yeah? well, if he was so awesome, how did he have a 5.89ERA on the road? huh?

no, I get it. he was only 30 when he came to the Cards. its not like he was 35 and in a downward spiral.

but damn, he sucked in COL.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

according to fangraphs his highest (tied) WAR season was while he was in Colorado. Which is weird.

I loved me some Darryl Kile.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

that's crazy. I don't get WAR sometimes

also, he was worth 0.8 with the bat in 98 in only 84 PA.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

WAR! HUH! What is is good for?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Evaluating the performance of baseball players, relative to their peers, in retrospect?

Probably needs some work to make than scan, though…

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

but can you put all that to music?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, talk about video game movement.

Darryl Kile threw one flat nasty curveball. The great thing about his curve was that it was one of those hard, biting curves. It was a lot like Carp’s curve, only better.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

didn't MattyMo refer to Kile as the Curve Doctor?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Should have called him the Spin Doctor

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Then they could have been the Two Princes of the starting rotation

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean they weren't anyway?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Well this would make it official

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously, some of our younger members here

should go find some video of Kile’s curve. Absolutely sick.

I think that’s why he struggled so badly in Colorado, due to the ball just not biting in that thin air, and he was very dependent on that curve as his out pitch. Then he changed his whole repitoire, thus the road pitching problems ensued as well.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

those were the days of the real Coors Field Effect

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Im my baseball lifetime I’ve seen Ankeil’s curve, Morris’s curve, Wainwright’s curve, Carpenter’s curve, and best of all Kile’s curve all with the birds on the bat. I am a lucky bastard

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 3:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The awesome part

was how differently they all used their curve. Waino and Kile use(d) a little different type curve. Kiles was sharper and usually darted down out of the zone. Waino likes to throw his really high and have it drop into the top of the zone. Ankiel’s was that big ole looping curve that had a rediculous amount of movement but was only traveling in the 60’s. Carps isn’t really his out pitch. He just mixes it in from time to time.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

In the 2001 NLDS against Arizona

Matt Morris’ curveball looked like a magic trick.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

jaw-droppingly awesome

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

that's like asking which beautiful woman would you like to date

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I could answer that easy but not here

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

...

Here is the last pitch of his no-hitter as an Astro vs. the Mutts, 1993. It happens to be a curve, against Chico Walker.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That's nasty

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Dustin Hermanson had amazing facial hair

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Jaime's got nothin' on Dustin

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

ahhaha!

wtf is that?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Suppan.

our back-of-the-rotation stalwart. He had some HUGE victories during his run with the Cardinals (2004 Game 7, 2006 Game 7 are maybe the two HUGEST!). Because of that, he will always have a nice comfortable spot in my heart, no matter how (just below?) average he was.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 9:14 AM EST reply actions  

I know he didn't get the official W in Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS...

but I DON’T CARE!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

And he could have won 2004 WS Game 7

(you know, if it wasn’t cancelled.)

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

fritz wants you to know he hates this meme.

and will let you know every time the meme is used.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, 7years, I guess the statute of limitations is over

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

okay i can get behind this.

the 2004 world series was really, really bad though.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Not nearly as bad as being a Rangers fan would have been last year.

I honestly can’t imagine living through that Game 6 as a Rangers fan.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I have a lot of family that are Rangers fans.

You could’ve sworn that I lost half my family in one night due to spontaneous combustion on FB.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

This makes me happier than it should

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 2:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'll remember this......

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

So you're saying I should look out for a sneak attack?

Boy meets world was an underrated show

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 3:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

now, why on earth would I warn you of a sneak attack?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

just a little bit

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

yes Al, I believe it does

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I couldn't imagine that.

i’m really glad that we were on the right end of that classic.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

This would be easier if various national media outlets

and prominent baseball journalists didn’t almost incessantly treat one of our failures as one of the greatest triumphs and/or moment of joy in baseball history.

by bailorg on Jan 9, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Cardinals fans in attendance at Game 4 applauded the Red Sox, likely in part due to the historic nature of the win.

The real insult is not from the national media but the producers of “Fever PItch.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

never watched it

never want to

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Fever Pitch or Game 4.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Should be a ?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Fever pitch

Jimmy Fallon annoys me.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Impressions are the only thing he was ever not terrible at.

Jimmy Fallon’s ability to impersonate seemingly any celebrity made the Celebrity Jeopardy sketches possible. I wouldn’t watch anything else he’s a critical part of though.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

can't say that I ever saw him do any

I just know that whatever I’ve seen him in doesn’t usually impress me.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, if you ever see any of the 90s SNL Celebrity Jeopardy sketches, he's in all of them I think.

He’s pretty good and they’re the only sketches in which he doesn’t giggle like an idiot.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

gotcha

I wasn’t at home to watch SNL during the 90’s. I was usually where the beer flowed with ease.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll famous titties for 400

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 9:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

he did a great adam sandler

I actually like his talk show, though, the open-enthusiasm thing works a lot better there and “head swap” is one of the greatest series of sketches in talk-show history.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 9, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I've stayed away from it due to my general disdain for him

but if you recommend it, I might look into it.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

lol what?

This (Vol. 2) contained zero head swaps. Thought it was actually pretty funny.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that the gag?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, never mind. I got it.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Well in fairness that was a pretty big deal to long-suffering Red Sox fans

I think that World Series should be remembered for what is was, a historic moment for the Red Sox.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 9, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

It was a pretty cool story, especially after the ALCS comeback.

Sure got old fast, though.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Can we watch Fever Pitch now, too!?

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 9, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

No. But not because of the World Series.

Because they slaughtered one of the more enjoyable sports books of our time.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Correct statement

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

But I loooove Drew Barrymore!

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 9, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

*sarcasm

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 9, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Can I read the book now? Or will I be haunted by Jimmy Fallon?

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

You can, and you should

It’s a great book about fandom

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

the movie was ok for me

until barrymore & fallon were allowed on the field to celebrate. that torques me off.

by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 9, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I would call it a failure

Reaching the WS is pretty sweet, don’t you think? Maybe let’s call it a minor letdown or disappointment?…

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

It sure didn't feel

minor then, and truth be told it still doesn’t.

If they had lost in 6 or 7 I might agree with you, but getting swept puts it into the “egregious failure” category for me.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

So you would rather be a Rangers fan in '11 than a Cards fan in '04?

I think part of the sting is that he hadn’t been to a WS in 20 years or so and weren’t quite sure we were gonna make it back anytime soon.

Since then we’ve won 2 WS so looking back, it doesn’t seem like such a big deal. Thank VEB. Today I finally got over the 2004 WS.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

but I will still hate Boston 'til the day I die

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

For me, 2006 was a quick redemption for 2004.

but, I also hate Boston with a passion now.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

I find Boston fans among the most annoying alive. At least the Yankees have a (mostly) quiet dignity when they are winning.

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Me too.

Before ’04 “Red Sox Nation” was plucky and halfway lovable and people sympathized with them. A lot of people I know soured permanently on Sox fans after that series. And it coincided with the period when the Sox became a slightly less rich version of the Yankees.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not one of those people that has "an AL team"

but pre-2004 the Red Sox were probably as close to that as it comes for me. I pulled for them out of my hate for the Yankees, but after 04, the Jimmy Fallon thing, and downright asshattery of Sox fans since then, I hate them just as much as the Yanks now.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah I can identify with this

I actively root against them now, would even rather see the Yankees win the division, can’t wait until either the Yankees or the Red Sox go down on a one game playoff loss on the wildcard spot, when that second wildcard kicks in. You know one or the other is pretty much assured of being the Wild Card year after year (except this year). So odds are it will happen, and hopefully soon. Perhaps Rays beat Red Sox in the wild card playoff the 1st year it’s instituted. Is is 12 or 13?

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The 2nd WC is this year

with all the other crap happening in 13

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Sometimes I find myself actively rooting

for the Yankees too. It still makes me a little nauseous when it happens, but I also have a close friend who’s a Yankee fan and that softens it a little.

My attitude is that the Yankees are and have always been a fact of life, like the sun rising in the east. But the idea that there might now be an additional team of that category that I must adjust to? No, that path is unacceptable to me.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 8:04 AM EST up reply actions  

What about the 1985 WS

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I got over that pretty quickly.

Thanks, Muppet Babies!

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

When your world looks kind of weird and you wish that you weren't there

Just close your eyes and make-believe, and you can be anywhere!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Muppets Muppets Muppets

Babies Babies Babies

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

my parents and their generation of my relatives

are still bitter about that one.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I think 1985 WAS harder to take than 2004

1985 had the whole Denkinger thing and we were somewhat close to winning the whole thing. In 2004, my feeling was there was no stopping the Red Sox after what they did to the Yanks. Well, I think we had a chance in game 1, but then when we lost, that was it.

youneverknow

by floodOfLove on Jan 9, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I was 6

and we only got NBC and CBS where I grew up. I didn’t get to watch a lot of baseball on TV. I normally didn’t hear about games until the next day at school or the newspaper when I got home from school.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

now that sucked

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

For Rangers 2011

(especially in light of the fact it was their 2nd straight WS), I think would also be egregious failure in their fans’ eyes, but in a different way than STL 2004. Kind of equivalent, though I can’t really answer that question because being a strike away twice in one game is something I’ve never experienced.

There were several other factors surrounding the 2004 series, and the surrounding people and place I was visiting during the WS, that served to multiply the pain. Not something I’m ever likely to get over.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure a lot of people say this now, but

I really just knew that we were going to lose the 2004 series. Boston had come back from 3-0 to the Yanks to win their series, which had never happened before, and we just looked really worn out getting there. Our pitchers were flat out gassed.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I was in denial until the end of Game 3.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Fun fact

Larry Ealker wasn’t worn out that series, but he was our only player that showed up

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 2:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

*Walker

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 2:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That loss earned us a big karmic debt from the GOBs

which they repaid this year with interest.

Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue parceque je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte

by alberich on Jan 9, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

as a steelers fan

I can tell you I preferred it when we lost the Superbowl last year, than when we lost to suckass denver this year.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

as a steeler fan

I very much agree with that statement

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

as a fan of humanity, ben roethlisberger is my least favorite actively-playing sports star.

i have nothing against the steelers franchise generally, but, to quote a great man, i hope all the bad things in life happen to ben roethlisberger and only to him.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a fan of his

But he was convicted only by the media. Cardinals have very recently employed wife beaters.

I’m a big believer in Karma. He’ll get what he deserves in the end.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe the Roethisberger allegations were more along the lines of sexual assault and possibly rape.

Wife beating doesn’t exactly merit an Upright Citizen’s Award, but rape is, well, rape.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

It's all bad.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 8:51 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

it certainly is

But is also just allegations. Like I said, he’ll get his if he did it. But I hope if I’m ever accused of anything, that the media isn’t the one who decides if I’m guilty or not.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 10, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

pfft.

I’ll never forgive the Red Sox for spoiling that season. To be the greatest regular season team AND win the world series was what I wanted. Never mind this nonsense about winning since then. I want the Cardinals to win EVERY year.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It is nice

To be the unstoppable juggernaut once in a while.

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

sounds like we need a team of robots to accomplish this
I want the Cardinals to win EVERY year.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

See, you're acknowledging that the Red Sox did spoil it.

That’s all I ask for.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

We're cool then.

2004 is a key part of my hatred for all things Boston.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll say this, that

season (and ‘85) has made me permanently wary of being “the greatest regular season team.” I’d love to enjoy another season like 2004, but going into the playoffs after a season like that will trigger only the worst kind of anxiety.

Of course my attitude has also been influenced by being a St. Louis Blues fan for many years. Too many playoff collapses after spectacular seasons.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point

85 and 04 almost felt like the Cards “deserved” to win. 2011 was fun to watch because I felt like it was all icing on the cake and I wouldn’t be too upset if they lost.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 9, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean the Gretzky that

got stripped of the puck by Steve Yzerman to lose a triple-overtime playoff game? Please, please don’t remind me of that moment. The feeling of having all the oxygen violently sucked out of your lungs is one I would prefer to forget.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

What makes Suppan more awesome was just how terribly bad he was with Milwaukee

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't he alright his first year there?

Probably overpaid, but I thought he at least was OK the first year… then quite awful.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah, 2.5 fWAR his first year

Then sub-replacement the next 3

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

The fact..

that he appeared in a Cardinal jersey during that contract kind of kills it for me

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Suppan and Lohse

signed for about the same amount of money (actually, I think Suppan signed for more) over 4 years each.
‘07-’10 w/ Brewers, Suppan put up 1.7 fWAR
‘09-’12 (incl. Bill James projection of 2 WAR for 2012), Lohse puts up 6 WAR

haha

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

even if Lohse doesn't make it to 2 fWAR this year

he’ll still be worth twice what Suppan was worth over the life of the contract.

and I remember being pissed that we didn’t resign Suppan and Weaver…

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing I'll always remember about Julian Tavares

is when he punched that water cooler in the NLCS and had to pitch with broken fingers in his non-throwing hand. I remember the next game he was pitching he had a grounder hit back up the middle towards him and he knocked it down with his hand (before the runner was thrown out by someone else) and he went down on the mound in pain. The inning happened to be over, so I don’t think the cameras even showed his reaction on close-up.

by dmiles on Jan 9, 2012 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

that wasn't a water cooler, he punched the bullpen phone

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Didn't his dad give him shit about it?

I remember the comebacker, he took off his glove and stared at his hand that looked like a throbbing Daffy Duck/Anvil accident.

by openside on Jan 9, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't remember the bit about his dad

but I do remember him looking at his hand with that “that’s gonna hurt” look on his face.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I remember the thing about his dad. It was pretty funny.

It’s too bad the internet didn’t exist in 2004, otherwise I’d be able to find an article on it in the Post-Dispatch.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I never had love for the Freddie Krueger lookalike..

If for no other reason I went to Fenway in 2008..? and happened to miss Dice K the day before and Beckett the day after to watch Tavares labor thru a five inning spot start.

by openside on Jan 9, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I remember thinking when I saw him do it

“Damn, man, that’s a good way to break your hand.”.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

yay for reply fails

Android app, you sure ain’t perfect.

by openside on Jan 9, 2012 11:18 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

doesn't even say it was via Android app

strange

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

okay, i know this is about the pitching staff, but...
and better than the cumulative fWAR posted by 19 MLB teams.

just…HFS

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 10:54 AM EST reply actions  

Just out of curiosity

and to test my sense of fashion compared to the predominantly younger crowd here, what do y’all think of
this?

I mean, I know it’s not skinny-tie-and-boat-shoes hipsterish, but I like it.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

I like the Arch design, but it looks too Giants-y, doesn't it?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking giants too.

I prefer my Cardinals gear to be primarily red.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I've never been a big fan of black apparel for teams that don't have black as one of their team colors.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, it's just that red washes me out

I prefer darker colors. Black doesn’t bother me.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I understand where you're coming from.

I have a few navy Cardinals shirts and jackets.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, I love it.

Though I’m a fan of the red, the primarily black jacket lets you wear it with a lot of other stuff.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

looks WAYYYY too much like a giants jacket.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

it does?

nah its cool.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 9, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, what's hipster about boat shoes?!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

better question: what's NOT hipster about boat shoes?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That they are a classic item in men's fashion, having been worn by the middle-to-upper class for decades?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait boat shoes are hipster?

I thought they were fratty.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 9, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that boat shoes or loafers?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Aren't they more or less the same things?

I think what you call boat shoes, we call loafers….

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

...

boat shoe

loafer

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that a loafer or driving moccasin?

(I think boat shoes and driving moccasins are forms of loafers.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

True boat shoes have that

white sole that does not leave marks on the white deck of a boat. Hence the name. Boat owners take your footwear very, very seriously before inviting you on board.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 8:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, if anything they're fratty

They’re generally worn with polos and khaki shorts

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

and sweaters tied around your neck.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

you have described my rolla frat boy brother's favorite outfit.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

So we agree that boat shoes are not hipster?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

as long as we agree they're fratty.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That's fine

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Does he do the multiple layers of polo shirts?

Double or triple collar popping action?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

unfortunately no.

but that’s more straight up tooly than fratty.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

oh wait, he wears the khaki pants. shorts are plaid on him.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I gotta show off these legs, man

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

This is further evidence of the overuse of the term "hipster." It no longer has a meaning.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

To me, hipster

implies tight, v-neck tshirts with little bitty arms, big pendant necklaces, some sort of fashion forward mussed hairstyle that will be very regretted in the future, and skinny jeans.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I know a hipster when I see one

If you had been out there among the hipsters, you would know what I’m talking about. You bloggers think everything is a numbers game.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I get it.

If I see a dude walking down the street and I immediately want to punch him in the face just from his appearance, then he’s probably a hipster.

Now if I could only find a way to quantify that. Something like HpWAR.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

it's like those dudes in the samsung galaxy commercial.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

It should me PBR, dorky over thought fashion, obsession with music you've never heard of, especially quirky iTunes suggestion bands

The term “I used to . . . Before it was cool/popular” and arragonce. Everything else is overusing it. Though none of the following are particularly valuable to society, fratty =/= hipster, nerdy (but not arrogant) =/= hipster, emo =/= hipster

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 3:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I've been drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon since before it was cool.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

It's like the Supreme Court opinion on porn.

I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

You better let me see it

Just to double check that it really is porn

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 5:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

obscenity

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 9, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

We know you know about porn.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 9, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh wow, haven't you posted enough about porn on VEB already?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody knows who that is.

(until after they google it)

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

That's *Justice* Stewart to you.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Black for black's sake is never good.

Unless one of your teams primary colors is black. JMO.

Would like it if it were Navy blue.

by RollBirdsRoll on Jan 9, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

True

see: Downey, Robert Jr. in tropic thunder.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Somehow, I think my comment re: hipster hijacked my own subthread re: cool black Cardinals jacket.

Win

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Could somebody please justify why they support Ozzie Smith in the HoF but not Edgar Martinez?

Thx

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:39 AM EST reply actions  

backflips

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Sideburns and afro.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Something beyond the DH is an abomination that should be banned?

Other than that I have nothing. Regardless, I support both being in the HOF.

by bailorg on Jan 9, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

well, it really is, you know.....

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

They should institute a rule that revokes your candidacy for HOF if you should ever decide to be a DH

That should help level the playing field. Of course, this wouldn’t apply to NL teams forced to comply in interleague games.

Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam

by peppermartin on Jan 9, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

that is a dumb argument.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

nuh-uh!

Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam

by peppermartin on Jan 9, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

so is your face

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

If the rules of the American League allow for a DH,

why on earth would the HOF institute a voting rule that revokes a player’s candidacy if the player every decides to be a DH?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

clearly, the solution is to abolish the DH

Bernie made this point when voting for McGwire, if the League doesn’t want him tell me the stats don’t count.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Straight numbers for players I haven't seen

I’d like to say I’m completely objective about players I have seen, but that’s probably not true

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

I largely don’t care about the HoF but I’d probably be a mid-sized guy FWIW. That said, I think the FAME aspect is important and very non-measurable. So there’s a pretty substantive grey area of career WAR totals where I could have guys go either way.

That all assumes that I care and, again, mostly, I don’t.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

w/r/t

your original question. I think there’s an argument that the DH could inflate career longevity. So if Martinez had to play 1B he might not have stuck around as long as first baseman for either health or performance reasons. The positional adjustments should help mitigate the latter but the former still exists for me and would very difficult to prove/study.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

That's certainly a valid argument

But wouldn’t a DH theoretically be easier to replace when their bat starts declining at all?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

DH has a higher wOBA standard. A first baseman is, theoretically, on the team for reasons other than their offense. I’m not sure that really crappy defensive 1B automatically translates into DH. It’s muddled because I think there are things that could keep a 1B around but not a DH and vice versa. The positional adjustments don’t treat them that way though.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if you use that line of argument

you probably also (for completeness) have to consider that DHs hit worse than position players (i.e. it’s been shown that, for some reason, not playing the field seems to have a slightly detrimental effect to players in terms of their hitting) which I guess might cancel out the elongated career to some extent.

Anyways, Martinez should be in. No argument from me.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, there's a difference between being a "one dimensional player" and a player who ONLY does one thing

I disagree with the notion, but here is how I would defend it:

Ozzie was a fantastic defender at a very difficult position, and by the end of his career was actually a decent hitter too. Ozzie’s career wRC+ was 94, his walk percentage was almost 10. He had quite a few years where he was an above-average hitter. Martinez, by playing so much DH, simply wasn’t contributing to his team half the time at all, which is a very different situation.

That said, I think the statistical ways we have of adjusting for these factors and computing a final value estimate for comparison are pretty good and I think Martinez deserves to get in.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Ozzie was a bad choice

I probably should’ve gone with Dave Winfield

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

The hockey player?

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

what's our collective demeaning term for hockey?

sticky-puck?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

According to this instructional video...

Iced Canes!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

demean hockey and you'll have to answer to Chris Carpenter

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 9, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

According to the comp system Bill James developed

Nearest comparisons to Martinez are Will Clark, Todd Helton, and John Olerud. Check link to confirm. These guys are all great players but not HOF

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I was inordinately fond of John Olerud

especially for his well-timed triples, and for a comment he made after the 1998 season. He’s one of the few players who hit for the cycle more than once. But he was such a slow runner, that in a 17-year career, he had only 13 triples. Both seasons (1997 and 2001) that he hit for the cycle in a game, those triples were the only ones he had that season. And when asked about the aberrational 1998 season, when he had 4 triples (most in he had in any one season), he replied something along the lines of “if you look at the video, I think you’ll see an outfielder lying on the ground each time”.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Then he should go into the Hall for that answer

Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue parceque je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte

by alberich on Jan 9, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I still disagree with this analysis.

The American League rules allow for a Designated Hitter so no Hall-of-Fame voter should punish a player for playing a position explicitly allowed for league rules. I am not a big fan of the DH by any means, but my dislike for the rule should not mean that I then punish a player who played the position. Edgar Martinez was a very good hitter and he’d have played somewhere in the field without the DH.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Er, sorry, I think I did that wrong.

Below average, not replacement.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

True, but not very far below average. He played for a long time and came very far to make up for how crappy a hitter he was at the beginning

Also, an average-hitting shortstop with fantastic defense is pretty awesome.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, I'm just talking about offense.

Just pointing it out since people often talk about Ozzie as though he became a league average hitter. Really, he just stopped embarrassing himself at the plate. He had a few pretty decent years, but on the whole was still below average.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Well. . .

for an eight year period, Ozzie averaged an OPS+ of 99. Being an average hitter (and not just average for a SS) while being a transcendent fielder is very valuable. Ozzie is a no-brainer HoFer.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 9, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally agree.

I think he’s the best fielder of all time at any position. I just think we have a tendency to get carried away with our stories of his offensive adequacy.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

stellar on defense for 27 outs and being average with the bat

versus stellar with the bat for 4-5 ABs a game and not contributing anything in the field

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 9, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay, what about Dave Winfield vs Edgar Martinez?

Keep in mind, Dave Winfield was like -89 runs above average for his career in the field

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Dave Winfield defended to the score, duh.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Dogging it when you can afford to dog it is what winners do, which is why Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

How is this point (which you've made a few times) helping your cause?

Let’s assume Edgar would have lost 7-8 WAR as a bad defender, like Winfield.

Now Edgard’s bWAR drops to around 60, along with the likes of Buddy Bell and Sal Bando.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't WAR adjust for positions?

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Positional adjustment

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

And Edgar likely gave up value, since he had a career +16 TZ

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

so you are saying he was just too lazy to play the field?

that should help his HOF chances.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Or his team happened to have even better defenders on the field

There are a million reasons he was a DH; just because he WAS one doesn’t mean he’s any worse of a player

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you give Edgar extra credit for being the property of an organization...

that stupidly kept him in the minors until he was 27? Ichiro is generally credited with his time in NPB.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

#6org

But seriously, no. Just going by what he actually did in the Major leagues

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

No

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish you'd stop quoting that number.

It’s incredibly specious and largely based on a massive outlier season. Aggregating defensive data does not necessarily remove the bias you still have to regress it and since we’ve got about 4 full seasons of defensive data for Martinez, it would be a not insignificant regression.

Even further, fWAR baserunning doesn’t encompass his whole career and he was, according to that metric, terrible on the bases.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just saying that the conventional wisdom is that he was a butcher in the field and that's why he was a DH

We don’t know that that’s true

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

No,

you’ve been saying that:

And Edgar likely gave up value, since he had a career +16 TZ

and, while likely gives you some wiggle room, I think that’s an awfully strong argument considering he didn’t even field during his last four seasons (i.e. when he’s most likely to go negative). I think there’s plenty of room for uncertainty but this 16 TZ needs to be heavily qualified.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand what you're driving at (and agree) but that "16"

comes with bigger than usual error bars.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Edgar's candidacy deserves more respect than it has received

Lifetime bWAR of 67.2 vs Ozzie’s 64.6
Edgar’s career 15 years basically. Ozzie 17 years basically.
Edgar was one dimensional and Ozzie was 2 dimensional (speed, defense)
Edgar 2247 hits Ozzie 2460 hits
Both made the postseason 4 times but Ozzie won a ring and Edgar never made the WS.
Ozzie hit one of the most iconic postseason homers ever, but Edgar hit an iconic postseason double.
Ozzie was the epitomy of flashy and Edgar was the exact opposite. (But Edgar may have the sweetest right handed swing in the game)
Very close call. I’d like to see Gar get in but the anti-DH mentality will likely keep him out. Playing for Seattle will hurt his chances also.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not against Martinez, but please

Stop comparing a SS to a DH. Seriously. It’s starting to really get grating on me. It’s like comparing Martinez to pineapples to avocados.

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Pineapples and avocados

can both trigger oral allergy syndrome. So there!

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 9, 2012 11:33 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

It's not that hard.

One guy is regarded as probably the greatest defensive SS of the modern era (and maybe ever) and one guy is a borderline all-bat candidate who won a couple of batting titles and led the AL in OPS once.

Are you just arguing for the “Hall of Value” approach? If so, why not Bobby Grich? or Lou Whittaker? or Larry Walker? or Jimmy Edmonds?

It’s far more of traveshamockery for Jeff Bagwell not to make it than Edgar. If Edgar makes it, great, if not, meh.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I think all 4 of those named should make it

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

If you think Bobby Grich should make it, then you really are just doing a Hall of WAR.

You should just advocate for a number of WAR (like, say 61.9 bWAR, for sheer arbitrariness). That number allows us to keep Yogi Berra but refuse Dwight Evans.

Hopefully Carlos Beltran will gain enshrinement by the end of the year.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

What's the argument against Bobby Grich?

Like I said, I’ve never seen him play a single second, so all I can do is go by the numbers.

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Because the only thing going for Bobby Grich is his bWAR number.

His most similar batters (according to BR) is Toby f’n Harrah and Jay Bell.

He led the league in homers once and HBP pitch once. Two times in his career, he was top 10 in MVP voting – one time he was 8th and one time 9th.

The better question is what’s the argument for Bobby Grich other than a bWAR number?

Again, you should just say “anyone over 65 bWAR should be in the HOF regardless of anything else.”

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

So you have to be exceptionally good at one thing to be in the HoF?

And using MVP voting is an appeal to authority argument

Like I said, I’ve never seen him play. I can look at the numbers and say, “He had a very, very good peak with 6.0, 8.1, 7.1, 6.0.” He had a long, effective career with 3.8 WAR when he was 36. He was very good in his field.

Is it not possible that he was underrated by his contemporaries?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I think calling something a "strawman" might the only thing more misued than "appeal to authority" around here.

Even putting aside whether voters for the MVP are legitimate experts for the purpose of this discussion (you apparently assumed wrongly that I cited this nugget to show how good at baseball Bobby Grich was), I said that Grich was in the top 10 twice in his career. That’s a fact, not a conclusion I’m asking you to draw from the premise.

Last, of course it’s not impossible that Grich was “underrrated” by his contemporaries. I didn’t say otherwise.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

What are you going on about?

Yes, it is a fact, but if you did not use it to show how good he is, then it’s an irrelevant fact so I don’t know why you even brought it in in the first place?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we're done. Just pick a bWAR cutoff that suits you.

If there’s nothing for you to consider for HOF inclusion other than WAR compilation (or WAR divided by years played), then there’s nothing really to discuss.

But do remember the “appeal to authority” part -

1. Bobby Grich is not objectively good at baseball because X baseball writer didn’t vote for him for Y award. That’s an appeal to authority.

2. Bobby Grich should not go to the HOF (i.e. different premise) because in only two years in his entire career was he seen by the MVP voters as (barely) in the top ten best/most valuable players in his league. That’s an argument, not a logical fallacy, and it assumes that one of the criteria for being considered for the HOF should the public/media’s perception of the player’s achievements relative to other players in his era.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this

I think qualitative considerations must be incorporated into voting, because otherwise why even vote? Just make a cut-off point at some agreed-upon quantitative value. The downside, of course, introduces a level of subjective opinion, and some of the voters’ opinions amount to abject idiocy, but that’s a flaw I’m willing to live with.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Jan 9, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

*is that this introduces

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Jan 9, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Qualitative considerations aren't what make so many ballots stupid...

it’s the way people use and mis-use the quantitative stuff. Maybe they’re just going with their gut and cherry picking stats to back up their opinion. That’s certainly possible..

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you saying that disregarding Jack Morris's 3.90 ERA is stupid?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Wins are a stat!

What say you, stat-heads!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Wins are sexy

Isn’t that the goal of playing?

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

But, do chicks dig wins?

I think that’s the gold standard

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 9, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how Morris's 1980s run support ranks.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Needless to say the 80's Tigers could rake...

and they could field. The decade fit perfectly with his age – 25-34 years of age from 1980-89.

He had a HOF-worthy DP combo behind him and at least three other members of the hall of very good in Parrish, Evans, and Gibson. Plus another slugging catcher in Nokes.

The Tigers runs scored rankings during the decade: 1, 1, 2, 3T, 4, 6, 6, 7, 10 (partial), 13

His ERA+ during the decade was only 109.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Robert Parrish? As in Big Chief?

He gets into the Hall of Fame of Commercials, definitely.

LOBSTER.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean "Angels legend" Bobby Grich?

that was one of the many humorous parts of that Pujols pep rally.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

How does any of this address my point

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

What?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

...
Could somebody please justify why they support Ozzie Smith in the HoF but not Edgar Martinez?
One guy is regarded as probably the greatest defensive SS of the modern era (and maybe ever) and one guy is a borderline all-bat candidate who won a couple of batting titles and led the AL in OPS once.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, that's fair

To which I rebut:

One is regarded as probably the greatest offensive DH of the modern era

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

does the best defensive shortstop title

equal the best offensive DH?
I don’t think so.

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 9, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, there have been a lot more SS since the DH rule has only been around 40 years like

But other than that, why not?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

It'd be like giving a basketball player credit for winning multiple dunk contests...

it’s just a bullshit add-on that someone unfortunately saddled the pro game with…

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Anybody have a legitimate argument?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

because being a good shortstop is an identifiable skil,l

Not possessed by the non-shortstops in baseball.

With the exception of a small wrinkle or two, being a good DH just means being a good hitter. Comparing Martinez only to other DHs doesn’t make much sense.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 4:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I know you're on mobile, so feel free to wait until you're at a computer

But I honestly don’t understand your point. Could you expand?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

the point of comparing catchers to catchers or shortstops to shortstops, etc., is to define their value

in the context of their position.

designated hitters don’t have a defensive position. so saying “edgar martinez was the best DH of the modern era” is nothing like saying “mike piazza was the best catcher of the modern era.” we talk about catchers, shortstops, third basemen, centerfielders, etc. as a group because their role has specific defensive value. why would we talk about DH’s the same way? there’s no defensive value to being a DH.

moreover, because 16 teams have never had full-time DH’s (well, i guess 15, counting the brewers) you’re further comparing martinez to an arbitrarily small set of comparable players.

i would just ask how edgar martinez compared to other hitters, not just other DHs. barry bonds or jeff bagwell could have just as easily been DHs on another team, right? so, what’s the rationale for comparing martinez to frank thomas, but not barry bonds?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

But we weren't arguing "Mike Piazza as the best catcher in the modern era"

We were arguing the equivalent of “Mike Piazza was the best offensive catcher in modern baseball”

I mean, your point still stands, and it’s a good one, but I think you’re slightly misrepresenting what we were debating

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

SS is a legitimate position, DH is not.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

WINNER!!

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Does Thome make it then?

I think he was a DH for about 3/4 of his career. For me, he’s an absolute no-doubter, and I don’t think I’m a particularly “big hall” guy.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think 600 HRs gets him in with no problem.

by the way, I heard on the news that the British gov’t is advising people to curb their drinking. Is that true? I’d move if I were you.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

No clue.

I’m far too trashed to be watching the news.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

well played.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

excellent

keep the faith

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

But the offensive part of the DH position isn't actually any different than the offensive part of any other position.

Position isn’t really relevant to his offensive performance.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

It is in positional adjustments

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea...? Maybe I've missed your point here.

Defensive greatness at SS is unique because it’s one of the hardest defensive positions. Saying Ozzie is the greatest defensive SS is different than saying Keith Hernandez is the greatest defensive 1B in that regard. Is there anything that separates excelling offensively at DH from excelling offensively at other positions?

Also, I understand there’s a considerable adjustment between DH and other positions, but are we certain the adjustment is correct? Seems like there are still better hitters at 1B and LF than at DH.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, I get that.

But I thought part of the idea was to make performances between the positions more equal. Hm. I guess it’s just a secondary effect.

I guess I was just thinking, not necessarily related to the Martinez/Smith argument, that there is a general correlation between offensive ability and positional adjustment along the defensive spectrum, but for some reason it does not apply to being a DH.

For example, being the best defensive CF, SS, or C is quite impressive as it’s a difficult defensive position. Similarly, being the best hitting 1B is generally very impressive since many talented batsmen play there, but for some reason this doesn’t seem to apply to DH as much as I would expect. Maybe it’s just me.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

and

dh’s should play more games by being physically stressed less
in addition, most dh’s are dh’s because they can’t play defense well enough
which seems to also mitigate against their chances

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Jan 9, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with your last sentence the Bagwell stuff is crap

Also I DO want Edmonds in. He had a gorgeous peak, I am so happy to have seen it

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 3:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Ozzie is 2nd all-time for TZ behind Brooks Robinson, ftr.

He’s not just the greatest defensive SS ever, he’s arguably the best defender at any single position ever.

That is the difference between Martinez and Smith. If I wanted to keep Martinez out by have Smith in, that’s where I’d start.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

something about being the best defender ever is transcendent, regardless of other stats. If we merely went by, say, total career WAR, no relievers would ever be in.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, here's my rationale.

Ozzie was the best defensive shortstop ever. Ever. He also was a very above average baserunner, a great base-stealer, and there were several years that he was a plus hitter.

Edgar was a great hitter. That’s it. he sucked on the basepaths and was such an abomination on defense that he couldn’t even play first base or left field regularly. Couldn’t even try it.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

So are you saying that no DH should ever make the hall of fame?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

IMO, yes.

If DH was their primary position.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

So you're against Frank Thomas?

In a hypothetical world where Babe Ruth played DH, his bat isnt’ so great that it merits a HoF bid?

If you remain consistent, that’s a legitimate view, though I strongly disagree

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I know, it's just a personal bias.

If this helps your view any, I think football players should have to play both sides of the ball too. I strongly disagree with any game that lets a player play only offense or only defense.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

What about soccer

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

They're at least on the field for the entire game sequence.

Hey, even goalies can score a goal once in a while.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

What about soccer?

What a bizarre question.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

Seriously, I’d love to see a football game where each team got like 15 players or so. You know, give them a bench for substitutes, but no more.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

To get in as a DH they have to have MUCH better numbers than a normal player

Ruth is clearly in with his bat alone. I think Frank Thomas is in. He led the league in OPS 4 times before he was 30. He won the MVP twice and if you are going based on WAR, he had several 7+ WAR seasons.
His peak was CLEARLY better than Martinez. The only think that hurts Thomas is that he fell apart after he turned 33.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

So you draw the line somewhere between Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Which is a perfectly fair position.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Just a note for those passing through

that WAR attempts to force them to have better numbers than a normal player through positional adjustments.

Carry on.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

do you know how much of an adjustment it is?

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

This is, I think, pretty standard accross the WAR implementations.

I’ve never seen anyone use anything else. Values are for a full season of playing time.

Catcher: +12.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

what?

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

How much is the nickname

Big Hurt worth?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Jon Heyman's vote

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 9, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

potentially millions, if you want to do excedrin ads in retirement.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 4:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

yes

and while we are at it, the DH shouldn’t even be allowed in a batters box.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

While I want Edgar in the hall myself

The problem he has when you gets past the DH bias is that he had too short of a peak. It’s the same thing that will unfortunately haunt Edmonds

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 3:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

One thing you forgot to mention:

Ray King had the biggest head in baseball. I credit a lot of his success to his ability to hide the ball for a long time behind his watermelon-sized cranium.

You think I’m kidding, but I’m not.

by Pegasus on Jan 9, 2012 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

i agree with you.

and that head is massive and weird shaped.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at the size of his heed

I’m not kidding, it’s like an orange on top of a grapefruit.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Now that was offsides.

He’ll be crying himself to sleep at night, on his huge pilla.

by Pegasus on Jan 9, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

offside*

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

rats

I was hoping to save myself, but no, it was said correctly in the movie. I lose.

by Pegasus on Jan 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean that's a huge noggin!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

That heed is like Sputnik!

spherical, but quite pointy at parts.

Get up and fetch your mother the paper, if you can, hauling that gargantuan cranium about.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Et's a ver-choo-al planetoid!

It’s got it’s own weather system.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

this reminds me of a joke

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably steroids

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

or a genie

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the origin of the term Fathead.

They owe Ray King royalties.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

So, I noticed something weird the other day

OLIVER projections for 2012:
Matt Adams .273/.313/.480
Xavier Scruggs .248/.313/.511

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

seems dubious...

who the hell is OLIVER?

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It's the Hardball Times system

No idea if it’s any good. I just thought it was kind of cool.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems like it needs a common sense filter...

Xavier Scruggs is going to jump from Palm Beach to St. Louis and be a top 15 slugger in the NL?

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The other side of the coin

is that maybe one should temper enthusiasm about Matt Adams for the time being. Or maybe projections are inherently imperfect (which nobody here would really argue against anyway). I was just very surprised by those numbers.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Until I learn more about Oliver I'm going to disregard this...

I mean, zips has the following slugging projections: Holliday-484, Berk-471, Adams-418, Hamilton-380.

And this is a system that has been cross checked with reality and shown to be fairly consistent/accurate.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

I think it says more about the projection system than anything

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno if I totally agree with you

It’s not overwhelming, but ZiPS thinks he would be tick under average in the majors right now, and our seventh best hitter.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, Scruggs isn't included in ZiPS unless I missed him.

Not that I think ZiPS would like Scruggs better than Adams or anything.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

That kind of stinks for a first baseman...

the average SS in 2011 hit 260/315/380.

Not that this means a huge amount – he is just 23.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, this is pretty much an extended exercise in playing Devil's Advocate

Yay off-season!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

only if we expected him to start this year.

What it says to me is that he has room to develop. In the absence of regression, his projection will come up next year.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 4:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

So has Oliver, BTW

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 9, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

In current money

.273/.313/.480 is an above-average hitter. Not too bad for a guy who’s never swung a bat above AA. If he’s an average defender (which, FWIW, I certainly don’t think he is) he’d be about a 1-1.5 WAR player (I think) at 1B with that line, which I guess isn’t too bad at this point. I’m only expecting him to be maybe a 2-3 WAR guy at his peak, and I think anyone expecting more is going to be severely disappointed.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

In fact, it's basically the line Mark Trumbo put up last year

with an extra .20 points of BA. This, I think, is pretty much exactly what Adams might do in the majors. And I think it might actually be closer to 2 WAR at 1B with average defense. So Adams is probably a 1-1.5 WAR player right now.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I for one am impressed by that projected line given the circumstances

young player, hasn’t even seen AAA yet, cheap, and now the baseline for respectable offense is lower.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

things I never knew:

in 2000, Mark McGwire put up 4.7 fWAR in 89 games. that is all.

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

04 was a fun year, right up to the world series

the mv3, larry walker joining in late in the season… those were fun times. like today, my 20th b-day.

by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 9, 2012 2:08 PM EST reply actions  

happy birthday.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

That was literally the worst segue of all time

But happy birthday

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   5 recs

By every account that i have heard, Larry Walker was an incredibly nice dude.

maybe he’d do it.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Will anybody else show up?

Like, say, any other members of the 2004 Cardinals squad?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Too soon.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

he most certainly is

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

he'll show up to party

even if he wasn’t a member of the 04 squad

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

spiezio pops up at the oddest times.

just ask the cast of “she spies”

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

“David Eckstein, what an actor!”

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

the 20th birthday is kind of like the 2003 Cardinals

it’s nothing special, but you’re almost to a smashing good time. Happy birthday.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

So did I.

I went to an Orange9mm concert at SEMO. Then on the way home I jumped in the fountain in front of the library.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

me too.

it was great. drank a ton of “desperadoes”. i’m not sure what the american equivalent is, but they’re popular in europe. it’s basically a shitty beer (think corona), with some lime juice and tequila in it, packaged in a fairly big bottle. also, went bowling. i highly recommend drunk bowling.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

here’s where i find out that america has those too and i just didn’t know about it

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Fischer Breweries in Schiltigheim, France produces Desperados, a pale lager flavored with tequila. Desperados has a 5.9% ABV. Desperados was first brewed in 1995 and is the fourth largest beer in this market.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Desperados is fucking horrible.

Consequently I always assumed it was a Mexican beer.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

i was 20. don't judge.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

any beer is good beer when you are 20.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

wrong.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

your face is wrong.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

youre doing it wrong.

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

god you suck fang

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:32 AM EST up reply actions  

haha i forgot i made this comment.

why did i make this comment?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

naw

Life’s to short to drink bad beer.

The issue lies in not knowing what is good.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish the store by my house had better beers

it’s frustrating because sometimes they do, and sometimes they have a not so great selection. like today grolsch or 312 were the only ones that sounded decent. I’m turning beer snob lol. /spoiled

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no going back

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand this feeling.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

I drank a few of those in a boring club my friends dragged me to in Germany once. I literally sat at the bar and almost fell asleep despite the incredibly loud, terrible music (it was warm and dark in there, sue me). It’s not good beer, but since I was also about 20 at the time, I think it was OK.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

They kept trying to dance with German girls who thought they were weird

It would have been fun to watch them make fools of themselves if I weren’t bored out of my mind and lonely at the time.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I drunk bowl

every Wednesday night…

"There's only one way to play baseball, "the Cardinals' way." - George Kissell 1920-2008

by Supergus on Jan 9, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I cant remember what I did for my 20th

but I know I got super trashed somewhere in Illinois. 21st birthday…well, that was quite a debacle.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

as did i.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Happy Birthday, Rosie

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Happy 20th ZoomZoom.

That’s right, VEB. 20 years ago today, the doctor threw away our fetus and sent us home to raise the after-birth. He smells funny, but we love him anyway!

We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham

by Gibby45 on Jan 9, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

i think i just threw up.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

He does have a way of taking it right to the edge, doesn't he?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Larry Walker joining was something like a gigantic middle finger towards all of the NL

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 9, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

we almost all

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JOEL

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Happy 20th zz!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

happy birthday

hope you’re enjoying being 20.

> tebow

by cschepers on Jan 10, 2012 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

So, Larkin

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

overrated

It is probably fair to say that Philip Larkin is less highly regarded in academic circles than either Thom Gunn or Donald Davie.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

So, Taguchi.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Hall of Famer???

Maybe in my heart.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey d-dee

Long story short, after that whole deal with my laptop Dell took it in and repaired all of the damage to the computer. I got the thing back a week and a half ago, and made a joke that Dell probably added one or two problems for kicks, and now the screen is flickering like mad, pretty sure its a hardware thing

Just thought you would want to know

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Jan 9, 2012 2:22 PM EST reply actions  

jeeeesus mf christ... i think it's time to yell at some supervisors, scream lemon and demand your money back

and most importantly, never buy anything from those fucks again or any of their affiliates
or bestbuy

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Jan 9, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i'd scream at people, yeah, gladly

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Jan 9, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably a loose cable to the LCD from the motherboard

Wouldnt be surprising if they took it all apart

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 9, 2012 10:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I know Anthopolous is considered a good GM

but why the hell would you give Darren Oliver $4M dollars. That’s crazy.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

I mean, Oliver is way better than I would have thought

but $4M to a 41 year-old lefty reliever? Really?

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a time in the offseason when I was hoping the Cardinals would sign Mike Gonzalez or Darren Oliver as the second lefty reliever.

That being said, $4MM seems pretty steep for Oliver.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Oliver has signed with Toronto.

But, perhaps Mike Gonzalez’s price will drop and we’ll sign him in a couple of weeks…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I realise that. I was reading this thread!

I’d probably rather have Oliver for $4m than KMac + Skip for $4m.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

I’m still holding out hope that the front office trades McClellan.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

His numbers look consistently great for a reliever...

and after trading Scrabble, their best in-house lefty is… Luis Perez? Jason Lane?

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Mozeliak is laughing right now.

“$4 million for a lefty reliever? Ha! He should’ve just traded Rasmus…”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Raz used to pitch... like when he was in high school or something...

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 9, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

If anyone is interested --

Future Redbirds is starting the top 20 prospects today.

#16-#20

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 2:27 PM EST reply actions   3 recs

Awesome

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

woot

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Damnit....this comment just caused me to check woot,

and spend $35. I hope you’re happy.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

you bought the Tron mouse?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 9, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

ya, I've been looking for an overpriced gaming mouse ever since the dog ate the last one,

and, tbh, $35 was a good deal.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I <3 Digger

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 9, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

SOB almost died over the weekend.

He snatched a blueberry muffin out of my hand.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Grasshopper has learned well.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 9, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

that is soooo funny

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Your dog's name is SOB?

How do you live with yourself??

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

my dog's name is Shithead most of the time.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

but there was no fire, therefore he gets dubbes Shithead

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

dubbed*

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you an Asian man?

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

doin my part for the economy!

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

hurray!

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yay

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 2:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

scrumptious

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You're my hero

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome!

Think I have Tilson a bit higher, weirdly, even though I really don’t go for low floor, low minors guys much as a rule.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yay!

Heading over there right now.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

HOF Vote Results:

Larkin – 86%
Morris – 67%
Bagwell – 56%
Smith – 51%
Raines – 49%
Tramell – 37%
Martinez – 37%
McGriff – 24%
Walker – 23%
McGwire – 20%

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:10 PM EST reply actions  

Hold your line non-Morris voters!

don’t let him in, dammit!

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 9, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a good chance Jack Morris will become the worst pitcher in the Hall of Fame next year.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

105 ERA+!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

As Jon Heyman says, we shouldn't hold his 3.90 ERA against him.

It’s not like it’s the most widely accepted stat reflecting pitching skill or anything.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I was watching Clubhouse Confidential the other day...

…Joe Sheehan said that it’s been researched in every way, and there’s no evidence he “pitched to the score” and even if he did it should count against his candidacy. Heyman said “Well I talked to guys who played with/against him and therefore he should be in b/c they said he did.” I guess in Heyman world thinking for yourself and making a decision based on actual results and evidence and logic is just not useful.

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 9, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

At best you could say he tried to pitch to the score and failed.

And again, how is that a good thing?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Accepting Heyman's attempt to explain away Morris's 3.90 ERA for the sake of argument...

Letting the other team have a better shot at winning by trying less hard should disqualify one from eligibility. That is the antithesis of the competitive spirit that sportswriters typically celebrate. How many games did his team lose because of his lollygagging? What a despicable thing to do.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

The argument for Morris is so delusional.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyman gave me a massive headache on that show.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

so terrible.

he’s basically an average pitcher…

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Jesse Haines might like a word

Cardinal pitcher in 20s and 30s with a lifetime bWAR of 33.8.
Morris’ bWAR is 39.3.
but, but he’s a Cardinal !

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Morris was mediocre a bit longer than Haines,

but Haines a lower ERA (3.64 to Morris’s 3.90) and a higher ERA + (109 to Morris’s 105). While on the field, Haines was the better pitcher.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not so much that Morris had a longer career

bu that 30% of Haines’ appearances came as a reliever. And I think above average is a better description of the two than mediocre. IMO, one could make a case for either being less deserving

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that you could make the argument that either is less deserving.

I didn’t realize the share of Haines’s innings that came in relief towards the end.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Fascinating stat alert

Despite 386 (136th all time) career starts, Haines never had a season where he didn’t pitch in relief

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

What's the cutoff, again?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

from bbwaa site

75% required for induction. 5% required to remain on the ballot

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 9, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice to see Bagwell, Raines, and Trammell making double digit moves...

The thing about Morris is that there are six new guys next year who are slam dunk Hall of Famer: Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Sosa, Schilling, and Piazza. Even those who won’t vote for guys linked to PEDs will still have Biggio, Schilling, and Piazza to vote for thus stopping some of Morris’s momentum.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Bonds comes in below 50% next year

book it

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Bonds and Sosa will not make it next year.

Hopefully such a good class doesn’t also stop the momentum of Bagwell. It is quite stupid that he has yet to be inducted.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

That's unfortunate. Barry Bonds should be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree. He was one of the (if not THE) greatest players of this past/current generation.

Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa should also be first balloters.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't get this.

Even without the steroids stigma, Sosa is (or should be) a borderline candidate. His career WAR is below Edmonds’. For a guy whose entire argument rests primarily on his abilities as a hitter, he had a pretty mediocre OBP for his career (<35%).

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, I had no idea

that Sosa’s WAR was below Edmonds.

And steroids or no steroids, the dude used corked bat. He actually cheated at the game while on the field.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Sosa is a definite no for me. The only pretty clear steroid users I’d have in would be Bonds, A-Rod, Pujols, Clemens and Big Mac (unless I’ve forgotten someone obvious).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

ho boy.

manny’s one of the guys even i may want to exclude based on how much of a dick he is. let me look at his numbers.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

after looking at his numbers,

i’d vote manny in.

manny – yes
sosa – no
palmeiro – no
bonds – yes
pujols – …wait, what?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

The amazing thing about Pujols

is that he’s still hitting at age 41.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Andy Pettitte?

Even though everyone forgave him right away.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Jan 9, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

easy no for me.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't really care for mediocre pitchers

who had longevity.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

They need a

Hall of Guys that Weren’t That Great but did it a Very Long Time.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

and that's a rec.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Except in bed.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

whatever the fucking shit that means.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It means he stopped giving a shit after his team scored 15 runs.

Also when Morris is eventually let in, Petite supporters will eventually point to him as an example why he deserves to be in.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Jan 9, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

what a mess.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with this logic is that Pettitte was way better than Morris

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

So was Kevin Brown.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Um, what?

Are you guys looking at the same Andy Pettitte I’m looking at?

The one with 67 fWAR in 16 seasons? Compare this to Jim Edmonds: 67.7, 17 seasons (unless I’m counting something wrong, which is totally possible)

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

ERA+ 117

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think you're considering peak/PT enough.

Pettitte had 4 seasons with >5 WAR, and one >6 (7.4)

Edmonds had 8 season >5 WAR (six coming consecutively in his first six Cardinal seasons). Those same six Cardinals seasons also were above > 6 WAR.

Edmonds spent more time injured than Pettitte did, dragging down his career WAR. It’s Edmonds’ peak that really takes him from a borderline guy to a HOFer in my book.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

let's vote in dennis martinez, too.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a pretty stark difference between someone like that

and Pettitte. Pettitte didn’t even have an especially long career. Is this some sort of elaborate joke that I am not getting? Pettitte is not simply some “OK” pitcher who lasted a long time.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

15 years. i mean, it's not excessive.

but he lasted a while. 3.88 ERA.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

after further research, i am being inconsistent.

i would have to re-evaluate what i think a “hall of famer” is, i guess.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Manny's maybe borderline, same as Big Mac

Whereas all those other guys are inner circle. I guess I probably (entirely arbitrarily) just move the line slightly higher for steroid guys, I suppose the rationale being you can guarantee that guys like A-Rod and Bonds would be HOFers with or without the roids, whereas you can’t maybe be sure for Manny and Big Mac (although I think McGwire showed enough power in what we generally think is the pre-steroid era).

Basically I think I’m just making biased judgements and then trying to justify them after the fact. This presumably qualifies me for the BBWAA.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

you probably even write more words, about baseball

than most members of the BBWAA.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Cannot believe you included Albert on this list.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, but I would include Edmonds as a sure-fire Hall of Famer.

unfortunately, i see him being as one of those egregiously omitted

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

if only he had stuck it out this whole season

and played the part that Corey Patterson played, down the line, and then got one of the Game 6 game-changing hits. Or even just one of the down-the-stretch-of-the-remarkable-comeback-for-the-ages hits.

Would have immortalized him.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess with him, he might be getting "fame credit"

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

It'd be crazy to have a ballot next year...

I would need 12 votes…

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Biggio, Piazza, Schilling, Trammell, Raines, Edgar, Bagwell, and Kline.

I guess I’d drop Schilling and Biggio considering they need the least amount of help.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Kline?

Based on Dirt Above Replacement Hat?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

For some reason, Kevin Brown failed to get the 5% of the vote necessary to stay on the ballot.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

wow, that's a huge letdown. 77 WAR.

and I’m pretty sure that huge contract which is seen as a big fail is part of the reason why.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Jan 9, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

WHAT

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I have bits of a post on Brown's exclusion from last winter.

I was going to post it today but Duncan’s retirement got me thinking about Cardinals pitching staffs and this post wrote itself.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, that is just silly.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, what?

Who gets middling support for 15 years and who gets dumped instantly can be confounding at times.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think so.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Steroid taint I guess

and he was very much unlucky to be around in a period where there were clearly 3-4 better pitchers in the game.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 10, 2012 2:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Man , Kevin Brown was REALLY good!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That's pretty much what I said to myself the first time I really looked him up

which, believe it or not, was after hearing about how much he got screwed over in the HOF voting.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Because BBWAA

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't understand what the BBWAA thinks is going to happen with this ridiculous back log

There are going to be so many deserving players who are eligible, but they insist on only electing one or two a year. Madness.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what the Veterans committee is for.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t even think the majority of HOF’ers were voted in by the writers.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, is that true?

If so… isn’t that a bad thing? I mean, if the voting process is so bad that that many players require the veteran’s committee, what’s the point of even having the sportswriters vote anymore?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

read this

link

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

and this

link

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

one more

link

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, you could see the two processes as working in tandem.

The writers vote in those players who deserve immediate enshrinments (the obvious, small-hall guys) and the Veterans Committee looks at the players over a longer period and picks up those guys who withstand the test of time (or who, with time, prove worthy after further analysis and appreciation).

Joe Posnanski recently wrote an article about the writers vs. the Vet. Comm – you should check it out.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, why not.

I used to live a couple of hours from Cooperstown and never bothered going. Can’t say I much care who gets in and who doesn’t. I haven’t even heard of half of the guys in the HOF – who the fuck are Effa Manley and Travis Jackson?

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Bonds clemens sosa seem to have a problem

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 6:02 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Veb chatting on and on

About hipsters and the hof. What day is it heh

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 6:04 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

dunkin over you jordan style

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

WAR

1997 (Phillies): 8.6
1998 (Phillies): 8.6
2002 (Diamondbacks): 9.7
2004 (Red Sox): 7.3

woh

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

his 2002 was monstrous

260 IP @2.4FIP/2.21xFIP

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

How about this:

Player A (Slam Dunk)
GS – 436
Record – 216-146
Innings – 3,261
Hits allowed – 2,998
Career K/9 – 8.6
Career BB/9 – 2.0
ERA – 3.46
ERA+ – 128

Player B (Sub 5%)
GS – 476
Record – 211-144
Innings – 3,256
Hits allowed – 3,079
Career K/9 – 6.6
Career BB/9 – 2.5
ERA – 3.28
ERA+ – 127

So much for consistency…

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

schilling and brown?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup...

In fairness Schilling was 11-2 with a 2.23 era in the playoffs while Brown was 5-5 with an era over 4.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And the saber stats...

Schilling
FIP = 3.23
xFIP = 3.18
FIP- = 74
fWAR = 86

Brown
FIP = 3.33
xFIP = 3.57
FIP- = 79
fWAR = 77.2

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

who are Schilling's comparables?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

:)

random trivia: what pitcher is worth 114.7 fWAR for their career?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

maddux?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Off by 5.9 WAR.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Randy Johnson?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

yup!

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

that helps lol

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

player b's kevin brown, right?

I remember a long BTF thread about these guys—I think it was these guys—bringing up something about brown having an extreme number of unearned runs and schilling having an extremely low number. haven’t checked though, because I’m very lazy.

in any case, I’d probably vote for both of them, but I think it’s also possible for your in-out line to be between the slightly better schilling and his excellent postseason numbers and brown.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 9, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

they are very close

didn’t realize how close… Schilling is definitely better in K/9 and his walk rate is pretty damn nice

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It's like 170 UERs to 65...

Brown to Schilling, but Brown only gave up 39 more runs in the same number of innings.

I agree, it’s advantage Schilling, but they are really close.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

So Larkin gets in and Concepcion doesn't?

Umm

When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Jan 9, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, because Larkin was by far the superior player.

Larink has more hits, more homers, more RBI, more SB, a BA 28 points higher, an OBP 49 points higher, a SLG 87 points higher, and a career OPS+ 28 points higher (88 to 116). Larkin also won an MVP. Concepcion was a better fielder but nowhere near that much better. Concepcion’s career 44.8 fWAR is dwarfed by Larkin’s 70.6 career fWAR.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

are you joe morgan

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

No, just latino and therefore want my guys in

When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Jan 9, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Um, OK.

Well I’m white and thusly I’m pulling for Larry Bigbie.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

fair enough, i guess?

i’m hoping for alex liddi to string together an amazing career (not going to happen).

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

My flatmate (who is a sports journo and English) did a baseball camp in Italy a couple of years ago

Alex Liddi was there as one of the professional players to put the journalists through their paces, along with this guy (who I presume isn’t going to have more than a cup of coffee at the major league level). I think they’re the two most well-known Italian origin guys in the US at the moment.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt at this point that he even gets that

No minor league stats for him in 2011. He was released by the Cubs in April, and signed with the Lincoln Saltdogs of the AAIPB. He’s currently in Australia, pitching for Brisbane in the ABL.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

do you mean "born in italy"? cause otherwise adam ottavino has a sad.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Um, Chien-Ming Wang was kind of Chinese

But Taiwanese, so fuck that

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

So he is from the Republic of China.

/politics

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Which one is Best China???

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

It's taking all my will not to make a One China Policy joke with a picture of Kissinger.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Mac's is a little higher than was anticipated, isn't it?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

He needs to do something heroic

Like rescue a bus full of nuns, caring for a litter of kittens that have lost their home. He can pull the vehicle from a snowbank, and carry each of them on his back the five miles to safety. Then he gets, bonus points, right?

by JWO on Jan 9, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Or become a Cubs broadcaster

and contract a tragic disease.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

or turn into the dave duncan of hitting coaches

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

damn.

I’d say he’ll be a vet’s committee choice, if he gets in at all.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

utterly moronic morality stands.

i don’t understand how you can know with any certainty that someone didn’t use so-called performance enhancers. are they going to with-hold an entire era from the hall?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

They better.

Think of the children!

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 9, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Except for the writers, managers, and owners who enabled the PED use, they might.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

that's the real tragedy

a blind eye was turned to it for so long because nobody wanted to see it.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

An entire era THAT THEY COVERED WITH WINK-WINK NUDGE-NUDGE ACCEPTANCE.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 9, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

is she a go-er?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

say noooooooo MOOOOOOORE!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Surprised Smith is that high

Bagwell, Raines, maybe Tramell, Edgar and McGwire should be in I think. Statistically I guess McGriff and Walker should be in too but for largely spurious reasons I guess I say no on them.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

He's got a better strike out rate by over K/9

than Sutter and Gossage and 2 more than Eck or Fingers.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Looking at him again

maybe fair enough actually. That said, I find it hard to see just about any reliever not called Mariano as a true HOFer.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

When guys have done what this small group did for as long as most of them did it, I can see them getting in. They were better than about anybody else at their job. I realize we’re talking about relievers but it is a specific job, not unlike the DH. Surely Hoffman would have to get some consideration from you?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

just wait for the class of 2025.

papelbon.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

of course.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

3.4 career WAR, you guys!

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the world clearly needs a fake ryan franklin twitter feed: @frankyboner

@frankyboner – called john mozeliak on thursday to see when i could report to jupiter. he said he’d “get back to me.” haven’t heard anything since. so sick of this, you guys.

@frankyboner – i’m working out, getting into peak pitching condition. pounding the beef jerky for protein. went through five bags of primo oberto stuff today. can feel the muscles gettin ripped. spent two hours on the can.

@frankyboner – not taking this lying down. called my agent, told him to start calling the other clubs and seeing what they’ll offer me. he said he’d get back to me. that mozeliak can learn the hard way that loyalty only goes so far. you gotta give respect to get it, you guys.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

How the fuck

does Tim Raines only get only 49% of the vote. He was better than everybody on that list except Larkin and agruably Bagwell.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

he did cocaine a few times.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

So what you're saying

is that I’m never getting into the hall of fame….

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 9, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

hamilton's a first ballot-er, though.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, but not Keith.

Or does he count as hispanic?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyone else concerned. . .

that a guy who played 140 games only 7 times in his career made the HoF?

Seriously, in his average season, if you discount his 22yo cup of coffee and his age 37-40 seasons, he played 126 games.

I find Larkin’s career very odd in several respects, but I suspect there are no HoFers who missed as much time to injury as Larkin. (And yes, Mickey Mantle was healthier, at least from a GP perspective.)

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 9, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, to be sure (at least with the bat)

I just wonder if we would let in a starting pitcher who pitched brilliantly but missed, say 7-10 starts per year.

And understand, I’m not arguing against Larkin’s induction, I just think his career was a very unique one for a HoFer.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 9, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

If he missed 7-10 starts per year and still put up multiple 6+ WAR seasons

and a long productive career, I’d still put the starting pitcher in.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

why are we discounting 4 of his seasons?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

never mind.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That is interesting...

I had no idea he missed so much time. He was so so good when he played though…

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

BELL-TRON

That’s all I’ve got today. Damn baseball lull.

by mojowo11 on Jan 9, 2012 3:20 PM EST reply actions  

you hit round things with a stick and run to little square things on the ground.

also, there are other people who try to make you not touch the square things.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

the goal is to run home and be safe.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a round bat and a round ball

and you’ve got to hit it square.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

i wonder what explaining baseball to aliens or an extremely isolated people group would be like.

“what do you mean that was a strike? i did not hit the ball.”

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I once tried to explain the rules to someone unfamiliar with the sport

It’s harder than it seems.

“And then you run to the first base. Oh, the bases are the little white puffy things. You’re safe when you’re touching them. The first one is that way. Why counter-clockwise? Well, um, things just work better that way. Mostly because more people are right-handed, I think? I don’t know. Stop asking questions.”

by mojowo11 on Jan 9, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

And when the ball hits the foul pole

it’s a fair ball.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

and when you run to first base

you can run past it and you are still safe. If you run to second, you have to stay on the base of you can be tagged out.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

"what do you mean that was a ball?

isn’t it a ball all the time? i give up."

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I've had to do so for British friends in the past.

And yeah, it’s not always that easy to explain because the joy of the game is really more in the minutiae and the complex bits than the “immediate” aspects. Cricket is more or less the same in that respect.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

i guess the british do count as an

extremely isolated people group.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

hey-o

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 9, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i was quite proud of myself.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

One of Bob Newhart's best routines

Abner Doubleday trying to explain his new game to a marketing guy. You don’t hear him, you hear the marketing guy (Newhart) on the phone, reacting to what Doubleday’s telling him. It’s on Newhart’s first album (and on youtube), and it’s classic.

by Perry on Jan 9, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Bob Newhart was a great comedian.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

yes. yes, he was.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

no, he's not.

he was just on an episode of NCIS, either the beginning of this season or the end of last season.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

what am i saying

he still is

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

he's not technically a comedian anymore

more of a comedic actor

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I put up a link the other day of a HS friend of mine.

He’s actually been out on tour with Rickles.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

and Tommy Chong

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

that's really cool. bet he's got some great stories

Shoot the link again

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

.

here it is

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

funny guy ... the interviewer was really enjoying it

was he really funny to go to school with?

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Fucker was hilarious.

He’s not usually that amped up in real life. You could always tell where Dale was when we were having a kegger by the amount of beer that was being coughed up. He had natural born timing. He’s really one of the nicest guys you’d ever wanna meet.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

That's really cool

Hey man, I’m out … catch you tomorrow

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Jon Heyman

tweets:

larkin told me la russa offered him chance to bat in front of pujols in 2005. but larkin said cardinal red was wrong shade

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 9, 2012 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

bullet dodged.

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 9, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Tony sure liked his veterans

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 9, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Thierry Henry just scored the winner for Arsenal

FUCKING LEGEND!

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 4:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Dammit

I mean, I’m thrilled, but I DVR’d the game to watch at home tonight. Should have stayed off ALL sports sites I guess.

by Perry on Jan 9, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry bruh

VEB can soccery at times

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 6:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Welcome to VEB.

I don’t think you are safe for spoilers from NHL, NFL, NCAA football or NCAA basketball. Probably safe from the NBA and I don’t think I’ve ever come across an MMA spoiler though there are quite a few MMA watchers on here.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

also, EPL. also, MLS.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Who the fuck watches MLS

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

That's what I keep wondering.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

rui does, and i know during the run-up to the play-offs

a lot of discussing went on here.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

oh. hi, rui.

the one time i don’t pay attention to who i was responding to…

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

lololololololololololol

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

rec

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 9, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, it's only going to get spoiled if something crazy/awesome happens, generally

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Since when can sports fans keep anything to themselves

when something awesome happens?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Wowza

503 UID guys. Oldtimer.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

did not notice earlier,

loy nominee.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Just about to post this!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

think that almost qualifies for LOD.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

For more of this

click here

You won’t be disappointed!

Also, greened!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i can't stop...

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Jan 9, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep 'em coming d-dee ... they're awesome!

Magically delicious!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i can't stop eeing laird everywhere

i put him in a flock of sheep for fuck’s sake

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Jan 9, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I was going to do this, but just "phone home"'

Take it!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 9, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking coming out of the ship in Close Encounters

or escaping the White House explosion in Independence Day.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I can read several meanings into this comment.

and all of them are funny.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

flock of sheep > Flock of Seagulls

> tebow

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 9, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike Mussina. Hall of Fame.

discuss?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 6:09 PM EST reply actions  

what's your methodology?

the top ten of each decade?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I just posted those because I was looking at them for Brown earlier and thought it was impressive that he ranked in the Top 10 in two decades.

That’s not easy to do (though it helps if you start your career at the beginning of one decade). The guy has an 85+ career WAR, that’s what I’m mainly going off of. The fact that he IS in the Top 10 for two decades just speaks to his pedigree, AND his longevity.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I would probably vote him in.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 9, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he should be a lock.

85.6 fWAR…Easily would’ve eclipsed 300 wins if he had chosen to pitch into his 40’s, like Glavine did.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 9, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

Way better than I thought he was.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll always remember a conversation I had with a co-worker that went to school with "Moose"

Co-worker: Ever heard of Mike Mussina?
Me: Yeah, played with Orioles & Yankees.
Co-worker: Yeah, we used to party. Knew Moose real well.
Me: That’s cool.
Co-worker: HE’S AN ASSHOLE!

Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam

by peppermartin on Jan 9, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Doug Flynn ? Middle infielder for the Mets, Reds, et al in the 70s and 80s.

Lifetime fWAR of -12.1
Perhaps I’m misinterpreting In like Flynn. Ha Ha

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 9, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm bummed the Cubs have competent leadership...

Theo is doing everything he should be doing and nothing Jim Hendry would’ve done. They’re about to acquire Jacob Turner and Nick Castellanos for Garza… We’re going to see the Cubs win a pennant in the next decade.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 7:07 PM EST reply actions  

damn't

as soon as i saw the headline about cubs-tiger in talks for garza i was hoping turner somehow wouldn’t be in it. of course he is though.

by Wombat x on Jan 9, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Psh, he's no Shelby

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah but

he’s from st. louis, automatic stud.

for real though i just saw him pitch a bunch in high school so i like him, don’t want to see him go to the damn cubs.

by Wombat x on Jan 9, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I heard Ryan Howard is from St. Louis.

Does anyone know for sure?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

trying to get leda freese on the phone to confirm.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Rec'd

for Greek mythology.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

i think epstein is better at the "building" phase

than the “maintenance” phase. /pure conjecture

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

but can the Cubs ever get over the disadvantage of all those day games?

and their crappy stadium with crappy weather? I know Theo is a competent baseball guy, but…

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

So, aren’t those, like, the two best prospects in the Tigers’ system? For Garza? Damn.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i was about to lose it

theo is a voodoo man if he gets both

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Aren't Turner and Castellanos roughly equivalent to Archer and Lee...

the two guys that were traded for Garza last year? I know Garza is less valuable because he only has two years to go before free agency, but on the other hand 2011 was a real breakout season for him.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Turner and Castellanos would be better

But I really doubt DET gives up both guys.

by mick311 on Jan 9, 2012 10:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think turner and castellanos is a better haul

But it might be a toss up

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 11:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Ah

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Damn

Really like Castellanos. I’d have drafted him ahead of Cox I think.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 10, 2012 2:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I know RB hasn't even started his draft previews yet

But two of my early favorites are Travis Jankowski and Stryker Trahan

I doubt the cards would pick Trahan (HS catcher who might be gone by 19 if he has another strong year) but Jankowski has “cardinal” written all over him. Speedy
college CF who dominated cape cod
League this year (MVP)

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 7:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Oh shit, Cape Cod league MVP, huh?

If he’s left-handed it’s over.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

he is

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

is he 5'8", too?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

6'3" per the Stony Brook Athletics webpage

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

well, nobody's perfect.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

heh

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

lol Done. I'm pretty serious.

If this guy is available at 19 he’s on the Cardinals. Cards love lefty batters for some reason. The only very good RH hitting prospects I can think of are Jackson and Pham. Even M. Carpenter and Cody Stanley bat lefty.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

this was my thinking

the only scouting reports have used fielding % as proof he’s a great CF, but at the plate he seems like a potential leadoff type…not a lot of pop but walks ~9% of the time and steals bases….lots of bases

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

where do the Astros pick?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 9, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

#1 overall, right?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 9, 2012 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 9, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

holy linejumps, batman

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 9, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The DirecTV experience

If I remember correctly from our last cable TV discussion for IHB, several of you have DirecTV. My 2 year “contract” with Comcast and its cheap price has expired and I haven’t yet called them to persuade them to give me the cheap price again. DirecTV sent us a flyer today with an interesting deal. I don’t generally like satellite TV because of the weather issues, but perhaps I could persuade them to mount the dish somewhere besides the roof so I can clean off the snow.

It looks like I can get a cheap package with free HD and whole-house DVR that includes MLB Network about about anything I want. What do users here think of DirecTV? Are any of the broadcast channels in 1080p?

Has the channel changing delay disappeared? I freaking hated that.

Can you record 2 HD channels and watch another HD channel at the same time?

by sdrone on Jan 9, 2012 8:10 PM EST reply actions  

No idea about the HD channels

but as for Directv and weather issues, it has to be storming pretty hard to lose signal. I would get a pole if at all possible.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Love it.

With the whole house setup, you can watch 1 and record one. Although I haven’t checked if I can record 2 on the main dvr, and watch a third somewhere else in the house.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jan 9, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You can

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 10:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It's a solid service.

I haven’t had any serious problems. I’ve now had Charter (local cable), AT&T U-verse and DirecTV. I’d probably pick U-verse given the choice but DirecTV is a close second.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

The HD is 1080i and the channel change still has delay though not nearly as bad as a few years ago

They let you pole mount within I think 25 ft of the building (maybe 50) if there is a clear view of the sky and you tell them when you order (I think there is also a small fee but I have to check) you can record 2 hd and watch another as long as you upgrade to having two HDDVRs on you WHDVR and record Atleast one thing in the other room or record on the HDDVR while watching from the standard HD receiver. Pricing is decent but it’s a one year discount on a two year agreement that can’t be renegotiated. Product is good, a lot more Hd channels than cable an they not only have Sunday Ticket which I love but they have a similiar packe for every college and professional sport from car racing to college basketball to rugby an so on the only exclusions being college baseball am college soccer but they have pro baseball and soccer packages. The sports channels in general are great you get MLB, NFL, and NHL network. Customer service is excellent of you pay your bill, especially of you get the $6 protection thing, but they are particularly ruthless if you don’t pay your bill, so if you get them, pay your bill.

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 10:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Run-on sentence there

must suck to post via mobile

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, sorry

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 10:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And this was trying to be as honest about everything possible and answer your questions

The real simple answer is I love it and recommend it and that’s not just because I work for At&t and live where Uverse isn’t available or that I need Sunday Ticket to see my Packers. I honestly have it and love it. Also if you have At&t anything (home, cell, internet) you get a permanent $5 discount if you order it in an AT&T store

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 10:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Thanks for the feedback, everyone

I’m gonna call them to check it out. Sounds like I might need an extra DVR.

by sdrone on Jan 10, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Has the channel changing delay disappeared?

no, it hasn’t.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 8:12 PM EST reply actions  

reply fail.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 9, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously?

That’s interesting, didn’t know that.

by sdrone on Jan 9, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

It did when I had it just two years ago

The only things I haven’t see a channel change delay on is non-HD cable, IPTV like Uverse or FIOS, or antennae feed

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 10:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Non-digital cable rather, sorry

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 9, 2012 10:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He also sees dead people

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:12 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL that national anthem

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 8:22 PM EST reply actions  

alan trammell, career WAR 69.5, lifetime .285/.352/.415 hitter, with a career .343 wOBA, says "you guys let in barry larkin, of

the 70.6 career WAR, lifetime .295/.371/.444 hitter, with a career WAR of .366, and I got less than 40% of the vote?"

“screw you guys, i’m going home.”

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 8:22 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

nice

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

"Furthermore, I totally kicked ass in RBI Baseball for the NES!"

“Shouldn’t that count for something???”

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Career wOBA of .366, I'm gonna guess

Well, they are very close, but Larkin is better in every one of those categories. Other stats (BL/AT) – OPS+: 116/110; SB: 379/236; HR: 198/185; numerous other stats generally in Larkin’s favor. Yes, Trammell should have had more votes. I still don’t think he should get in. Just mho.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

watching the bonus disc of the 8 disc set

specifically the walk-off portion…WALK OFF WILD PITCH!

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 9:25 PM EST reply actions  

heh

Westbrook grand slam

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

now, obviously all bets are off if fielder gets 8y/$200m.

but does anybody think that the huge pujols contract could end up looking even worse if fielder signs for a fairly short, comparatively low AAV contract?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 9:59 PM EST reply actions  

I think it's going to be the worst contract in history

based on a couple thousand hours trying to break the HR record with Albert in baseball mogul.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that effects Pujols' value much

Fielder is just one data point, you have to look at all the free agents over the past couple of years, and the ones during Pujols’ contract.

If the price for FA suddenly nosedives, Pujols’ contract looks worse obviously.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:41 AM EST up reply actions  

This is ridiculous...

at what point does LSU just go to the hail marys?

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 9, 2012 10:50 PM EST reply actions  

If you can’t hit in the fetal position, you can’t hit in the playoffs

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 9, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

And let’s go out and win another one!

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 9, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I laughed out loud here
When Lidge throws the 1st slider 40 feet and it doesn’t even make the dirt, and Albert swings at it … I’m like, “That’s what I’m talking about!” … “stike him blind Lord!, exactly! … now we’re talkin”

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

The whole thing was great.

Thanks for the link ’59

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 9, 2012 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

De nada

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Jan 9, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

poor mo

this is great..especially given the last week

because TLR

by punchinjudy on Jan 10, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

fantastic.

"He may have been only .213 but they were the clutchest .213 of all time."
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 10, 2012 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

heh. I wonder if Albert was there?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 3:20 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks five nine!

That was awesome, Love Berk, want more

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Lance is awesome.

Cards fan in Middle East

by Shloz on Jan 10, 2012 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

so Cards heading to the white house next Tuesday

without Pujols
src

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Jan 10, 2012 7:48 AM EST reply actions  

To meet a White Sox fan?

wat for?

/snark

Cards fan in Middle East

by Shloz on Jan 10, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

better than a Cubs fan

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

You might have a point

He’s still “from” Chicago, though

Cards fan in Middle East

by Shloz on Jan 10, 2012 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

To laugh and say

“Hey, how about that Kenny Williams?”

by sdrone on Jan 10, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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