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Four Reasons to be Excited for 2012 ...


... and three reasons to be worried. It can't all be good news but in an offseason where the Cardinals watched the best player of the last decade leave the birds on the bat for some halos, the offseason has otherwise been remarkably kind to the club.

Reason to be Excited #1: Adam Wainwright

Prior to his Tommy John surgery, Adam Wainwright had been the work horse of the rotation logging 460 regular season innings between 2009 & 2010. It was a remarkable pair of seasons featuring strikeouts (8+k/9IP), above average ground ball rates (50%+), and excellent control (<3BB/9IP). He was arguably the second and third most valuable (fWAR) player -- not just pitcher but player -- on the team in those seasons, respectively.

If Adam Wainwright comes back like the old Adam Wainwright, while that shouldn't be our expectation that is essentially what Jaime Garcia did two years ago, it's upwards of 4 or 5 wins on paper for the club. With an aging Chris Carpenter (who logged 270+ innings including the post season in 2012) the club will need a pitcher that can regularly go deep into games. Adam Wainwright might be that guy.

Star-divide

Reason to be Worried #1: AARP Memberships

The club is getting a little long in the tooth. We know that players get worse after roughly their age 31 or 32 season and maybe even sooner than that. So even though Carlos Beltran is a great player he's going to be 35. A player's value rarely goes from significant positive to replacement level but as players age the probability that it could occur is higher. Here's a list of guys who will be 35 or older in 2012: Lance Berkman, Chris Carpenter, Carlos Beltran. The Cardinals are heavily vested (12 WAR) in the success of their aging players. Should that age catch up to them, things could get ugly.

Reason to be Excited #2: Shelby Miller

There's at least an outside chance that Miller will be in St. Louis in some capacity during 2012. It is difficult to see that happening out of big league camp but with a high-90s fastball and surprisingly good control (control and a changeup were the primary draft day questions about Miller) it's hard not to get a little excited about the prospect. There's a lot of things that could stand between Miller and the big league club -- maturity issues, roster space, pitching depth -- but this is January and January is when blogs dream of a rotation that includes Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Jaime Garcia and Shelby Miller.

At the very least, 2012 should be one step closer to the big leagues in 2012 even if that step culminates in Memphis.

Reason to be Worried #2: Wrong Hand

Marc Rzepczynski is an excellent left handed pitcher. He's also the only lefty in the system (outside of Jaime Garcia) that looks like a reasonable bet to be a good player in 2012. If you fudge some 2011 numbers and ignore everything before June, JC Romero might have recaptured his slider mid-season. If you squint real hard, Nick Additon or Barret Browning could maybe retire same handed hitters out of the bullpen in the major leagues. R.J. Swindle has gone through 5 organizations in 6 years but there could be something to him that all of those teams missed. Having a left handed reliever in the pen isn't a necessity despite what modern bullpen construction would have you believe. It is, however, a nice luxury and one that the Cardinals have struggled coping with in the past when the wrong hands go past their expiration dates.

Reason to be Excited #3: The Outfield

Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran, Allen Craig and Jon Jay all have an important offensive trait in common: ZiPS projects each of them to be an above average offensive player. They may not be world class defenders but offense was cool way before defense. It's retro. In a lot of ways, the outfield is vastly different than what anyone thought it might look like a few years ago. Matt Holliday on a 7 year contract and the highest paid player on the team? Carlos Beltran getting the biggest contract a player with no Cardinal ties has gotten since Jason Isringhausen? (h/t Matthew Leach) 3rd base prospect Allen Craig? Colby Rasmus in Toronto and Jon Jay in center? Who knew? And yet, the outfield looks superb.

Reason to be Worried #3: Ch-ch-ch-ch-changing

Let me go all Skip Bayless on everyone for a moment: Tony LaRussa won ball games. That's what the guy did. You could question some of his on the field decision making but, on balance, he was rational and made defensible choices. You could question a lot of his off the field decision making (like seriously a truck load of it) but he also managed to get a lot out of players. More than anything else, Tony LaRussa was a foundational piece of the Cardinals and he managed the club through two World Series Championships. I won't say that I'm sad to see him go -- I'm not -- but it is reasonable to have a certain degree of apprehension about changes within coaching staff including Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan.

The same goes for the front office. It's gone through a pretty dramatic restructure. In many ways, it will look like a more traditional and directly hierarchical organization. Dan Krantrovitz will lead the scouting department as a director (Jeff Luhnow had been a Vice President). Tony LaRussa's outsized influence on the team's decision making will disappear and John Mozeliak will ultimately own the teams that the Cardinals put on the field over the next 3-5 years. They will be his team managed by his people. Is that bad? Is it good? Don't know. Ask me in 5 years.

Reason to be Excited #4: 2011

Not sure if you remember this but the St. Louis Cardinals just won a World Series Championship. We beat, arguably, the best regular season ballclub in the divisional series, stomped on some hated rivals in the Championship series and then followed it up with the wildest seven games that we'll probably ever see in our lifetime. It was incredible. It was awesome. 2011 is dead. Long live 2012.

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You better beleive it

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 8, 2012 3:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Enjoyed the post and my favorite is #4

We have most of the same team as last year, with the addition of Waino and Beltran to offset the subtraction of Pujols. This could really be a great year!

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 9:29 AM EST reply actions  

and Furcal at ss instead of the-blackhole-iot

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

it was what it was

and now it’s better.

> tebow

by cschepers on Jan 8, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

It is what it will be

signature comparison vote anyone?

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely. Our home grown reliever core is really exciting.

Motte, Lynn, Sanchez, Salas, and Boggs (despite others’ grumbles). But the 2nd lefty is concern. I would hate to have Scrabble overworked early.

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of change that will impact us

Larussa gone
Pujols gone
Luhnow/Medal gone
Duncan gone

I think losing LaRussa and Pujols was not necessarily a bad thing. I think losing Luhnow, his team and Duncan may have more impact

I hope they have a good draft this year — they need to max out these draft picks to ensure 3-5 years of continued excellence

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 8, 2012 9:50 AM EST reply actions  

I assume

you mean for the long term?

Losing Pujols and LaRussa are probably going to be the two most impacting pieces that you note, when talking about 2012 alone.

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Duncan loss will be an impact as well, hope not so bad that its clearly obvious, not saying it will

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree, Duke

Think the short-term loss – APU,TLR will be compensated by replacements.

Long term remains to be seen. . . . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Jan 8, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Four most excellent reasons.

Gotta say that I can’t wait for RB to start in with his draft posts. I’m really excited to see what we have to choose from this year.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

6(?) picks in the top 100 as well

could (should?) be an organisation-defining draft.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Our system is a top-5 farm system, arguably

so we could afford a crappy draft. But, ideally, we should be looking to spend big (IMO) with Pujols gone and consolidate our very good farm.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

With the new CBA rules regarding draft pick compensation, the Cards won't be able to spend big without penalty.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 8, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd really like to see an explanation...

of how the new rules affect strategy. Are teams going to spend their allotment on one really good prospect and lowball the rest? Is having a lot of picks more important now than it used to be? Is picking in the top 5 or 10 even more valuable, or is it less valuable because you can’t pull guys away from college/football with big bonuses?

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

The area that the new rules will affect is high upside high school players who

Get drafted beyond the first couple of rounds but then get huge bonuses. Think of guys like Dillon Maples,who the Cubs signed out of the 14th round.

These guys will now either be drafted and signed according to their talent – I.e. Maples will now get drafted in the first or second round and will sign for first or second rd money – or he will make a cost benefit decision (as high school guys have done for many years) about whether he can improve his draft position (and money) by going to school. (assuming he were drafted later in the draft)

In general, having a lot of picks will be better – because you can draft according to talent and also afford that talent.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

So is this a case where we should

draft the absolute best players available and make sure you sign those few rather than pick the best ones that you think will sign? I’m going with lower quantity for greater quality.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really. I think you're kind of looking at the process through the lens of the old rules.

The system is now set up so that the players will be drafted according to talent, not contract demands. Think of it like the NFL draft. It is more beneficial to have more picks and teams with more picks are allotted more money to sign them. The total amount of money spent in the draft isn’t going to change much, it’s just going to be re-ordered.

Bascially what they did was remove the leverage from the high-talent high school players. Those guys can either make it known that they’ll sign if they’re drafted before, say, pick 18 (based on knowing how much money they’ll get) or they’ll say “don’t bother drafting me this year, I’m going to college” – no pick will really be able to do what Josh Bell did – use going to college as leverage to get overslot money after being picked later in the draft.

What Josh Bell would do now is say “I know about how much I can make as a top 5 pick so I’ll sign if I’m taken in the top 5, otherwise I’ll go to college, and hope to be picked in the top 5 in a couple of years.”

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

one interesting consequence of the new cba

Will be more wong, less cox: that is, with only a narrow window for negotiation, you’ll see more prospects sign within a month of the draft, like wong, and get the extra development. There’s little incentive to hold out till mid-august, so you’ll see prospects get early development in the draft year.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 2:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Well they literally can't hold out until mid-August

The deadline is in July now I believe. I have no idea how it took so long for that change to get made.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The narrower window was a good idea.

The negotiations aren’t very complicated – there’s really no point in having a longer window.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I really like this aspect of the CBA. I think sometimes

players fight for short term gain (immediate $) vs. looking at their career. I would think that a good start increases their chances of succeeding.

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

My understanding is that teams have allotments for their entire draft...

so a Josh Bell could still hold out for a large share of a team’s allotment.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Doubtful.

There’s still going to be salary slotted for the picks – it’s not just a free-for-all for all picks given a team’s alottment.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a bonus allotment...

will team’s with lots of picks get a larger allotment? I don’t think they will.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

the allotment is the sum of the slotted value for all your picks in the first 10 rounds. You lose the value for any pick you don’t sign (so you can’t leave players unsigned to reallocate their value to other players).

by Robth on Jan 8, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm reading that the allotment ranges from $4.5M to $11.5...

how can the upper limit be set if the maximum number of picks a team could have is limitless (due to FA compensation)?

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the exact allocation for each team will be known

only after the full draft order is set. For example, there will be several ways for teams to get picks in lotteries (being small market, getting them from other teams that sign players overslot, FA compensation, etc.).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, teams with more picks get more money.

The NFL works the same way (allotment is based on draft positons and number of picks).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks

I guess I didn’t catch the part about fluid allotment due to number of picks. I was talking in terms of talent, i.e. take the best available, but use the most of your allotment to sign the best even if you can’t sign everybody you draft. But it is good that the players can’t play those kinds of games, I guess we’ll just have to see how well the process works.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

so if a player falls due to signing demands

he’s much more likely to not choose pro-ball and the clubs can’t do anything about it. great rule.

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 8, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

You answered your own problem.

The clubs can do something about it – they can draft that player earlier, in accordance with his talent level and expected salary demands.

If a player’s talent level isn’t commesurate with his salary demnds, then he’ll fall and won’t get signed. Well, ok. That’s what happens now anyway.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

so what if teams would rather get safer value from college picks at the top of the draft?

riskier upside high school kids will say fuck it and go to college.

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 8, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

And? What's the problem? The new rules just transfer the risk from the ballclub to the player.

Those players will either come back to the draft in a year or three (depending on juco vs. 4-year). At that point, they’ll either have made a smart choice and improved their draft position or they will have failed to increase their stock and they’ll be drafted lower or will be out of baseball.

Again, that’s not much different than how it is now. The only difference is that the player will have lost bargaining power because he’ll have little leverage in getting the team to jack up its bid to keep him from going to college.

From a team perspective this is good. From a high schooler’s perspective it’s bad.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

under this logic it would be better to eliminate the high school picks entirely

so that they could all go to college and become safer value. it also assumes that a university is just as good a place to become a better baseball player as a minor league baseball system where baseball is their full-time job and only focus.

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 8, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

the logic follows:

if you say that the choice to go to college is good for teams because college will weed him out if he’s a bust, then it follows that it is good for all high school players to go to college because teams will pick fewer busts.

also, if you say that it is just as well that they go to college so that the risk of failure is on the player and not the team then it ignores the difference between developing a player in a college baseball program and a professional program.

I wonder if Shelby Miller would be anywhere near as good as he is now if he’d chosen college as opposed to being expertly handled by our organization?

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 8, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I understood what you're saying - I wasn't agreeing that your point logically followed my point above.

First, your premise is wrong because I didn’t say a player going to college will necessarily be “good” for teams or the player, so that teams will pick fewer busts. This is not the risk being transferred and so your point doesn’t “follow.” What would follow from my point above is that highly talented HS players drafted in, say, the first three rounds, will probably sign. Those guys who would play major conference D1 ball (Pac-10, SEC, Big 12) may be more likely to go to school if they think it can improve their draft stock and they have legitimate hope to be in the top 2 rounds in the future. It wouldn’t make any sense for “all” HS players to go to college – guys like Dyan Bundy or Archie Bradley aren’t likely to appreciably improve their draft stock by going to school. Likewise, high school guys drafted in later rounds but who can’t realistically project to be in the top 2 rounds in the future should still sign and start their pro careers (assuming they don’t value college for other reasons independent of baseball).

For your second point, you still misunderstand the risk being transferred. As stated above, a drafted (or FA) HS player can still sign and start his professional career if he thinks that path is more likely to lead to a MLB career.

For players like Shelby MIller, nothing will change as between the new and old systems. The only difference is that he would probably have been picked in the top 10 under the new system.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, unambiguously bad for the high schoolers

which is the weird thing about binding a bunch of players who aren’t currently represented by the players’ union to a contract negotiated by the players’ union. Same thing as happened in the NFL, where the union could make concessions on rookie salaries because it didn’t affect any current members.

by Robth on Jan 8, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not really that weird. It's the same basic thing for other collectively-bargained contracts.

There are entry requirements and salary restrictions for people entering a plumber’s union as well.

Bottom line, the MLBPA is in the business of helping its members, not a bunch of random high school kids, the vast majority of whom will never be union members.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Bottom line, the MLBPA is in the business of helping its members, not a bunch of random high school kids, the vast majority of whom will never be union members.

I still have no idea how it’s legal for the union to be negotiating pay for people who 1. aren’t in the union, 2. aren’t signing to play in the spots that would displace union members 3. are likely not to ever be union members.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Because the MLBPA isn't directly negotiating pay for those people.

MLB and the MLBPA are agreeing to treat those people in a certain way as part of a collectively bargained labor agreement.

It’s the same as putting an age limit in for the NBA or NFL drafts or even having a draft at all.

Think of it this way – how else would it be legal to even have “a draft” for people’s services?

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Well in the case of the NBA/NFL

The players that sign are signing to become members of the league/union, that makes sense that they could bargain for that.

Baseball, I believe the draft was only legal itself because of the anti-trust exemption stuff. And even without that, there’s a legitimate argument of competitive balance/access to talent etc that makes the whole league better.

But this stuff is just BS. If you can’t win a negotiation where you have exclusive rights with someone who has to sit out a year of a very finite career, you’re too fucking stupid to run a winning baseball team.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts are

Anytime you have a top-heavy draft – 5 picks in top 50 and 6-7 picks in top 100 – it has to be a good draft. Even if this is a weak draft class (of which I have zero clue), you have to hit on 3-4 guys out of those top 6-7. That’s a lot for one draft class.

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not

We just had a crappy draft in 2011. At this point, no one is even remotely picking any one other then Wong to be any good. I’m talking about all the draft experts. We can’t afford to have 2 poor efforts from our scouting department 2 years in a row. That would send our system into a free fall again.

by Wileyvet on Jan 8, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting that we drafted 5 CF's in the first 10 picks.

hadn’t noticed that before.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

erm, 4. Still.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

shotgun approach

one of them’s just got to make it….right?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Or if you take multiple players at higher difficulty positions

if they don’t turn out they could still move to the corner OF.

by stlfan on Jan 9, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

5 of those are in the top 50

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait a minute...

You can’t have 4 reasons to be excited and share the #3 spot with things to be worried about. :p

by XxStLunaticxX on Jan 8, 2012 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

that just means that he had at least 2 things to be excited about

that comes before being worried about something.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

He was just checking to make sure we're paying attention.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Change is exciting

The truth is we are on the cusp of a new era for Cardinals baseball. The old guard has stepped away, and new faces are filling the picture. Whether that means more world series or some adversity, i think that is a GREAT thing.

Change, while sometimes frightening, is always exciting. ;-)

by JWO on Jan 8, 2012 10:23 AM EST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

+1 more. This has been the most exiting postseason I recall! Spring is just a short time away already ... contrast with last postseason

Like JWO said and Az points out in the main post, there’s things that are negative, but on balance, considering the long term balance sheet and health of the ML system its very exciting times

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

did you forget the +1?

or is mine not registering? I only see 1 rec

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

he may not have rec'd it

just +1’d it.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

you forgot

veb alive and well

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Jan 8, 2012 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

heh

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't believe you capitalized lboros

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Jan 8, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

he was shouting again

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Like a few days ago?

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 8, 2012 3:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And a shoutout to Future Redbirds, too, particularly

the fact that they actually have a farm system to write about now.

Interesting to watch the summaries come in of what minor-league bloggers and writers think of this system. I would summarize as GRONK.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah, for the days of Jimmy Journell as the top hit of the day. . . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Jan 8, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It depends on when an injury occurs and who is in Memphis.

I think it’s likely Dickson.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 8, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree that it's Dickson

I think that Lynn’s role in the bullpen will be set (as an integral piece) before the need for a 6th starter arises.

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Miller after Super 2

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

McClellan, then Dickson, then Cleto

I’d change the order after Miller’s super 2 deadline is up, assuming he’s pitching well.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

lynn, out of those three

i think rzepczynski and miller have better chances of success as starters

by prophetjohn on Jan 8, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Most folks will disagree with me, and I am not saying that Boggs is better than

the other 2, but I wouldn’t mind seeing how Boggs does with starts again. I thought his problem was avoiding the big inning. I recall that he cruised through innings and all of the sudden: Bang! If his relieve experience has improved that, then he could be interesting.

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think just mere repetition

More experience dealing with someone on base every time he is in a game. I am assuming that practice helps.

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't you get more repetition by being a starter because you pitch that many more innings?

I’m pretty sure you’d pitch more innings with men on base as a starter than as a reliever (not to mention, relievers are quite often brought in with no one on).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I see your point about more innings

I just think the experience comes in the form of… every time Boggs comes in, he needs to put out a fire. I guess I am arguing that the process of preparing for a relief appearance and the actual relief appearance is qualitatively different than that of a start.

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

going forward we will see Boggs' sample size be more reliable

I think some of his troubles (although I have no quibbles over his FIP) may be due to bad luck. after this year if he continues to have problems with leveraged situations, I’ll be more worried about him. given that he is mainly a bullpen pitcher I don’t see that there’s enough data yet.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Lynn

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

OF Defense

I think our outfield defense is going to be better than most assume. Let’s look at another defensive stat, based on the same BIS data used in UZR -

Under DRS in 2011, Matt Holliday was a +2 in LF, Carlos Beltran was a +2 in RF, Jon Jay was a +14 in the OF overall (6th among all qualified OFs), and Craig was a +1 in limited time. Schumaker was a +2 based on a very small 100 inning sample (the +2 came from his arm). As well, Berkman was a -8, and his glove is now at 1B.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 11:10 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah, one of the things I like is that none of the projected starters appear to be killing us in any particular area

I can’t think of a Berkman or Theriot who should give us just terrible defense, or a Patterson or a Theriot who will kill us on offense.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I know our older players could see some bad decline or the second base platoon situation might not work out

But neither seems like a sure thing.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

it's also a boost to not have Berkman out there

assuming he can still be halfway decent at first base

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Remember when 'Lil Dunc' used to patrol the outfield for us?

Good times, huh? It was truly Todd Huntley’esque (not as a catcher but the outfielder).

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

argh

yeah that was some comedy in the outfield, in the end he wasn’t totally horrible, but he sure looked it when fielding.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Does anyone else still really hope...

that the Cardinals are at least looking into Cespedes in the OF?

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 11:15 AM EST reply actions  

Yes,

But I also hope they are looking into a way to acquire Tim Lincecum or Clayton Kershaw. In other words, it’d be nice, but its not gonna happen.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Ian Kinsler?

I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.

by Sir Sci on Jan 8, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

dead before it ever gets to the hole in the wall

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh. I like what they did with it, too, with the arch in the outfield.

Perhaps we should look into some other less-hyped Cuban prospects, such as Armando Hierba, or Yovanny Astroturfo.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That Japanese MIF didn't sign with the Yankees, so he could be an option next year.

Don’t know anything about him though

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

If he's a good player...

then he’s a good fit. CF is wide open and will be even more wide open once Berkman and Beltran depart. The question is whether he’s a good player.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm assuming long term Chambers really isn't a CF sollution?

I know he has the range and speed to cover ground, which I want in a future outfield that has Craig and Holliday in the corners (nothing against them as they’re both above capable fielders…)

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

By the time we have a terrific CFer

Holliday will probably no longer be a capable defensive OFer.

by mattyfrommo on Jan 8, 2012 1:57 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Chambers is a big question mark

he obviously has the speed to be the CF, and he should be able to steal more bases than most players on the team. if Greene continues to ride the bench he would be the #1 steal threat without question. the main question being how often he could get on base, and assuming Jay doesn’t fall apart at the plate would how much of a downgrade would it be to go from Jay to Chambers? I think he won’t have the power that Jay has, or it would be surprising to see Chambers hit more than a few home runs.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind seeing some Running Redbirds after seeing us set double play

records.

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

yep!

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it depends on health of some of the regulars, but

Greene
Furcal
Holliday
Jay
Beltran
Craig
Chambers/Komatsu

All have enough speed to do some running around.

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah none of those guys are negative speed guys like Albert and Yadi, etc

not sure how to classify Berkman right now. he doesn’t seem to be super slow these days though. still got Freese but that only makes 2 super slow guys that I can think of.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Yadi and Berkman

both get 1st to 3rd pretty well. They’re not going to fast enough “to do some running around.”

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Yadi and speed must be graphed in the third quadrant. . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Jan 8, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

If we continue to clog up the bases, and I hope we do, I'll take some dbl plays

If we repeat with the offense output numbers

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how the Angels fans will react to all the double plays

Maybe it won’t be as bad this year.

Who's got it better than us? NOBODY!

by spfldbird on Jan 8, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

depends on how many players they can get on first in front of him

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Good list.

I’m personally looking forward to reading about a career-ending injury to Albert when he gets his wallet caught in a cash threshing machine. Maching’d

by openside on Jan 8, 2012 11:52 AM EST reply actions  

YAY

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 8, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Cardinals will never lose another game again if we continue to have the magic thread open

First baseball team to never lose a game in a season, right here in St. Louis.

I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.

by Sir Sci on Jan 8, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Part of me is amazed that entire thread

from top to bottom, isn’t green yet.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds like a project

for bored VEBers everywhere.

I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.

by Sir Sci on Jan 8, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Reading my comments from that thread

I sound like a crazy person. The voices in my head tell me so.

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no crazy in that thread.

Only magic.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 8, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

and Rally Adron

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I was at game 6

But I’m still a little jealous I couldn’t be part of that thread

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 8, 2012 1:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Magic Thread is the most magical of all the threads

just read through it and got happy all over again.

In the future, I for one, welcome our new Aaron Miles overlord.

by Michael_68_1999 on Jan 31, 2011 12:30 PM PST

by RosevilleRedbird on Jan 8, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Opeing day starter

Carp or Waino?

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 8, 2012 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

Clearly World Series game 6 winning pitcher Jake Westbrook

is the front runner for the honor.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was already determined that

Carp starts season opener and Waino starts home opener

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

In a surprise move, first-year manager Mike Metheny has stoled a page from TLR's playbook and announced. ..

. . gritty veteran Jeff Soupan will open the season. Rick Ankiel is unfortunately unavailable. . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Jan 8, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

looking at the schedule

cards start the season on a 7 game road trip. marlins, brewers, reds, before a home opening weekend vs the cubs. should be exciting. (also, ring presentation with the cubs visiting, right? ha.)

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 8, 2012 12:51 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

It will be cool to be part of the first games in the new Marlins stadium

Hopefully no one hits a home run that entire series…

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Fixed

Hopefully – no one – All 8 Cardinals in the starting lineup are the only ones that hit a home run in that entire series.

by stlfan on Jan 8, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

But then we have to see that hideous HR feature in the outfield...

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

silver lining of Angel Albert of Anaheim

less HR monster display ruckus!

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jan 8, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

as big as that stadium looked

there may not be a ton of HRs hit anyway

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

CCDNGAF

that you think he won’t hit a HR on Opening Day

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

there it is

I’m not sure if they gave out rings 103 years ago.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks. those were pretty cool to look at.

The WS ring from 26 is a chunk of gold with a diamond in the middle of it.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Hall of Fame Monday

Baseball Think Factory has Larkin going in (with 108 ballots counted) and Morris holding around 60% with Raines jumping up to 57%. Trammel and Lee Smith in the 40s and McGwire 18.5% (and Palmeiro at 7% is in danger of dropping off of ballot). Interesting Bagwell getting a lot of support at 57% -wouldn’t think that Bagwell could get 75% of the vote given his rapid muscle development and proximity to steroid central in Texas.

I suspect Morris will now get in if this holds up and it is appearing that Raines is finally getting some traction. With all the ‘roiders coming up in the next few years, Raines’ quaint issues with cocaine will finally be forgotten. I’d like to see Trammel get in. Always thought that he and Sweet Lou Whitaker should get in like Tinkers-Evers-Chance. They are proabably the best combo for the longest time in baseball history.

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 8, 2012 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

I love that steroids are the only reason anyone who uses them can hit but greenies are swept under the rug

Because clearly in a sport that requires instant reactions pushing the human limit to reaction time, stimulants wouldn’t help.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

John Milner claims that Willie Mays gave him "greenies", yet

no one even hears about that.

Greenies were a pretty big deal, but they’ll never get the full recognition they deserve because no one ever looked like the Incredible Hulk while they slugged 70 HR’s on them.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt Greenies or other uppers enhanced performance or underlying traits like steroids

A better comparison might be pitchers that scuffed balls or (illegally) threw spitters.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 8, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

You kidding me?

Modafinil in healthy volunteers:

Results. Modafinil significantly enhanced performance on tests of digit span, visual pattern recognition memory, spatial planning and stop-signal reaction time. These performance improvements were complemented by a slowing in latency on three tests: delayed matching to sample, a decision-making task and the spatial planning task. Subjects reported feeling more alert, attentive and energetic on drug.

That should be re-phrased:

Results. Modafinil significantly enhanced performance on tests of digit span, visual pattern recognition memory, spatial planning and stop-signal reaction time hitting a baseball.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I stand corrected.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 8, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Modafinil is not a greenie

Let alone a stimulant. It is an anti-narcolepsy drug

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 8, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Or maybe not

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 8, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, the manufacturer calls it a stimulant...

and it’s classified as a “stimulant” by WADA, and is on their “prohibited list”.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 8, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I would argue that the offensive stats of the steroid era

vs. any era where you assert that “greenies” were in widespread use refutes this notion.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Or it's a stack

Everyone during the “steroid era” was also using greenies just as they were before, then add steroids—-what would happen if you took out the greenies and had steroids? Who knows. It’s impossible to separate out the causation……let alone the effect of the juiced ball, or smaller parks or smaller strike zone, or whatever you want to add. It’s pure speculation, and that’s the point: all this moral aggrandizing on one aspect is absurd.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't think the causation is as hard as that or pure speculation.

I don’t need to know exactly how many home runs Sammy Sosa or Ken Caminti (or whoever) would have hit but for steroids to determine that them using steroids caused them to hit more home runs (a lot more).

I also don’t need to know how fast Ben Johnson or Marion Jones woud have run without steroids to discount the records that they attained using them.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

This

There are obviously a lot of confounding factors when comparing between eras, but check out the late career arcs of noted greenie vs steroid users.

I’ve never understood the justification that the silent approval of greenies should erase concerns about steroid use. What, we screwed up once, so we might as well keep doing it again?

by siddfynch on Jan 8, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Well since we're dealing with the HOF discussion really

Check out the career arc on Hank Aaron, admitted greenie user. Who knows what drugs caused him to be better from 35-39 than he had been in his career up through age 34!??!!?!

I’ve never understood the justification that the silent approval of greenies should erase concerns about steroid use. What, we screwed up once, so we might as well keep doing it again?

Yes. It’s called hypocrisy. Writers have decided that steroids are evil and no one associated with them should get in the HOF, but greenies are all cool. By what justification? What’s the difference?

The point is that it’s not that hard to look at context of the numbers/accomplishments without looking at everything black/white and figure out that say Barry Bonds was really super awesome at baseball. The “morality” of a scuffed ball, or steroids or greenies IS about the same. Why you’d hold one group of “cheaters” (when everyone was doing it just the same) to a higher standard doesn’t really make sense.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

steroids were also readily available when Aaron was playing.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 8, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

How dare we also point the systematic and consistent increase in run scoring that began in 1993.

Must mean that everybody started doing steroids in winter of 1992 and continued in roughly the same amount until about 2001, when a lot of people all stopped at the same time, and then everybody stopped in 2010.

Alas, the steroid argument is such a mess. I hate the BBWAA.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Hm

That would be an interesting way to do it. I doubt there would be as much moralizing through the election process.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Although

Players could theoretically be prone to the same mistaken analysis of value that writers are.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

"Strike is a five letter word"

and I’m so glad ESPN canned Morgan

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I heard an interesting idea a while ago about the way voting should go.

I don’t remember it that well but I think it was something like a committee of former players from the same era as the player up for nomination would vote on him.

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

been there done that

Thats why The HOF has too many guys from the golden era in it. All those guys o the VC were electing their buddies.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 8, 2012 6:56 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Hmmmmm I must be wrong then.

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly!

In fact, since offense increased, pitchers must have done fewer drugs in the 1990s!

It’s called logic people. If you don’t understand it you probably have bacne and your swollen head just can’t process reality anymore.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

This is by far (IMO) the

worst argument about steroids in response to how home run rates or scoring offense in general.

Why would you assume that pitchers using steroids reduced the home run rate or the scoring rate to the same extent that steroids helped it? The very notion is nonsensical. It may in fact be the case that steroid use by pitchers had no appreciable effect on home run rate or even increased it under some cirumstances.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

You have a very good point

I just object to the assumptions of the press regarding steroids. They might end up being correct about the effects sometimes, but it seems almost like they are correct by accident. I feel like there is a huge lack of critical thinking and honesty in the general treatment of steroids in the media. Or at least until recently. Far too often we see lazy arguments, moralizing, witch-hunting, and other such nonsense.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically, I try not to assume anything about the effects

I do believe it’s basically impossible that steroids is the only explanation for the increased run environment which began in 1993, though.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

It's facetious anyway

But this graph is pretty much what we’re talking about. It’s almost like there must be some other explanation for the massive surge in offense other than “hitters were evil people and they shouldn’t be allowed to be in baseball and it all started in the 1988 offseason, stopped in the 1989 offseason, then re-started in the 1993 offseason”

Just look at the numbers in context, it’s not that hard.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The "eras" seem pretty specific

I’ve posted a link a few times on VEB that argues they simply changed the ball. Maybe 1987 was a trial year and they went back and tried to improve it or something and rolled it out again in 1993. I dunno. I just don’t believe that steroids is all that was going on, though I do believe it was a real problem and that steroids and greenies and whatever other stuff probably helped players do things better.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I also meant to say that it looks like there are pretty consistent "eras" of offense

As in, there is not much variance within eras, and surprising sudden change between them.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

when did the change the ball back? 2002 or was it 2008?

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea when/if MLB has said it changed the ball

But the site I am thinking about lays out its case here and here. There are probably other pages rolling around there where the author(s) says other stuff.

I don’t claim any of it is true, but the statistical argument is pretty compelling to me. It’s pretty strange what went on in the eighties and early nineties, 1987, 1993-2000, 2000-2009, 2010-2011, etc.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the one I don't get. Rickey Henserson was on the same A's as Jose C and McGwire

He had a large muscular body that grew quickly diring his career and made his living on talents like speed and power. He was never maned in any book or on any report. He is lauded as this magical, clean perfect HOFer. Bagwell was teammates with Ken Caminiti and played in Texas which is a steroid hotbed. He made his living on speed and power and had a large, muscular body that grew quickly during his career. He was never in any book or on any report. He is a steroid using cheater that has to be kept out of Cooperstown. The difference? Bagwell’s career was more power centered (because obviously steroids would never improve speed or Marion Jones would have taken . . . Oh wait) and dun, dun, dun. . . . His prime was in the 90s!!!!!!!

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 8, 2012 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I always thought Canseco was referring to Henderson

when he said he knew of at least one current HOF’er who used steroids.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I could be wrong

but I remember a couple articles that indicated that Rickey was a serious “body is my temple” kind of guy — so he may be given a pass. Bagwell has always had “rumors” floating around about him, but no accusations.

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 8, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Frankly, I see cocaine as more of an issue than steroids

but Raines did all the right things: admitted the use, came clean, went on to playing baseball.

I don’t consider his issues “quaint,” but I’d certainly vote for him if I had a vote. FAR inferior outfielders to Raines are in the Hall.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

Do you think cocaine enhanced his play or was a form of cheating?

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 8, 2012 5:16 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Neither.

Rather, the thing pro players were doing that I most emphatically Did Not Want my kids to do.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Anybody see that column in ESPN The Magazine that described the stat Wins Above All-Star.

Essentially, the writer suggested subtracting 2.5 WAR (an “All-Star” player) from each season of the HOF candidate’s career, though if it ended up negative it would be thrown out because something like the peak is what mattered. Interesting idea, though I don’t know if that’s enough WAR for an all-star, didn’t seem like it to me.

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I'm officially 23 now; I feel old.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 2:08 PM EST reply actions  

Happy b-day, then

Wait till you are in your thirties and you body starts weering out— then you will feel old.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 8, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

(snicker)

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 8, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Ehh, I'm young and have my whole life ahead of me

It’s the cliche “I feel old” that everyone says on their birthday.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

You're just entering your prime years

Wait, are a pitcher or position player?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

(snort)

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 8, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

happy birthday, kiddo

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

what happens in the event Wainwright and Carp can't go deep into games?

if that happens, I think the bullpen will be tested and we’ll see some trades. that might happen anyway given the inclusion of some of the new bullpen pitchers and the return of Mcclellan…

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed.

Pitchers like McClellan, Lynn, Salas, and Rzepczynski can certainly eat lots of innings.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

by mtzxc on Jan 8, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Not even that

Cleto or Swagerty very likely would be good relievers—-Reifer is out there, Ottavino or whatever random hard throwing prospect are out there waiting to make the conversion. The relief depth is ridiculous.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 8, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

right on

I just hope they utilize it. I guess last year proved that they won’t go too long with a bad pitcher though.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

not saying we have a bad bullpen at all

but like last year I feel there is some drek that will need to be let loose. probably not nearly as bad, but still.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

We watch the playoffs.

Without those two pitching like they are supposed to do healthy, Cards are fucked. No trade could correct that.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 8, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Trades, or is the bus from Memphis going to get busier?

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Jan 8, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Excited for Beltron

Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam

by peppermartin on Jan 8, 2012 2:28 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Sweet pic pepper

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 8, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

First!

To post a disagreeing reply, that is.

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Topps 2011 Set

the #1 card in this years set was Ryan Braun with the following quote on the back, “he’s got high standards. He’s just very personally dedicated to getting better…Ryan has got his life in order… I don’t think anything is going to prevent him from getting better.” I agree. Hard to see how anything could wrong for Ryan

Colby Rasmus’s “combination of unlimited talent and distinct improvement should make him a near-certain star”

Topps points out that David Freese….is from St.louis. What a storyline that could have been if the reporters in the World Series had been paying attention.

Finally, Topps is known for giving the best players the round numbers in their sets. Ironically, Roy Halladay was given #300 and Chris Carpenter was given #299. Wonder what Chris thinks about that?

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 8, 2012 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

". . . and that's how mr. carpenter was fed to an anaconda, mr. dewitt.l

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 2:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

now we know what happened to carp's toe

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 8, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think

“unlimited” means what that writer thinks it means.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 8, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Reason to be excited 5:

Rafael Furcal and his 105mm howitzer for an arm, something not seen in these parts in quite awhile. No more willing a David Eckstein lob to 1st, hoping it will beat out somebosy with Yadi-like speed. No more hoping Boog would figure it out and win the every day gig. No more Theriohno.

Reason to be worried #4: Allen Craig’s knee. If it heals slowly, depth will be a big issue.

Reason to be excited #6: With the loss of Fielder and Braun, I don’t see any serious competition to the Cardinals in the Central. Every team has flaws, but I think the Cards are the one with the least amount, as long as the AARP gang doesn’t all get old at once.

"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire

by Ted Glover on Jan 8, 2012 2:35 PM EST reply actions  

yeah it sure will be nice to have a shortstop that can really throw

no comment on boog lol. even when Furcal rests Greene has a good arm, if he gets playing time

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

even with braun sitting for a third of the season,

The brewers are real competition. I’d give the cards an edge but not by much.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 8:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think the Reds will also be in the discussion.

But I’m rather optimistic about Latos’ impact on their rotation. Also, Volquez not pitching for them anymore probably adds a few wins.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 8, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

How about reason #6

3 switch hitters in the daily line-up.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 8, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

awh yeah

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Stark's well-reasoned (imo) HOF ballot

here.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 8, 2012 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

Morris, McGriff, and Murphy clearly don't belong...

and Edgar and Walker are very borderline. I’m on board with the other five.

That said, I’d take the 10 man ballot over the one man ballot (Larkin) that seems to be prevalent.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree on all 3 of these.

Edgar I would put in the Hall of Very Good. Walker was so close, I think he just needs to go in.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 8, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Problem is, he couldn't do anything else.

If there was a Hall of Fame for Slow-Pitch Softball Talents Playing Baseball, he’d be in it.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

If there were no DH

Edgar would have been trotted out to play the field and he’d still have been a HOF caliber hitter. Not his fault that shortsighted AL owners created the DH.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 8, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yep.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 8, 2012 6:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Well, would he?

It wasn’t just fielding ineptitude that got Martinez turned into a DH. It was also an aging, breaking body. I quote, for example, from his 1997 Baseball Prospectus yearbook entry: “He had a legitimate chance for 60 doubles [in 1996] before he strained his ribs while making an emergency start at third base.” And that was almost ten years before the end of the line for him.

No way would he have been as good a hitter if he’d had to endure the bumps and bruises of playing defense, like a Real Baseball Player™.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't prove that.

If the DH is going to exist – for better or worse – then HoF caliber players should be voted in. It’s a real, actual position.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 8, 2012 9:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

If he'd have been as good a hitter playing 3B, they'd have played him there.

And then found some other immobile slugger to DH. No “proof” is needed for the contention that he wouldn’t have fared as well playing the field. The circumstantial evidence is so powerful as to speak for itself.

Lest I be misunderstood, I don’t see DH as an automatic disqualification for HoF consideration. It does, however, raise the bar. A LOT. That one can even consider Edgar as a possible HoFer, in my view, makes it clear that he was a tremendous hitter. I still wouldn’t vote for him — probably.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

You could argue that no DH can realistically do enough...

to merit the HOF. The LOOGY, the batting coach, the pinch hitter… all these “positions” exist as well.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I would not make that argument

but I would require some really awesome achievements of anyone entering as a DH. Frank Thomas, to name one, would qualify, because his achievements were awesome (check his career stats compared to Edgar’s). They’d be enough for me to vote for him even as a full-time DH (he DHed about 60% of his career). But that’s about where the bar is. As good as Edgar was, he wasn’t that good, and he played Real Baseball™ a smaller fraction of the time than Thomas.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I would argue that Edgar's peak was every bit as good as Thomas'...

seven years of 330/440/580 even in that era is amazing.

As far as his career counting stats go, I do give him a break for being in an organization that didn’t bring him to the majors until age 27. It’s not his fault. He was playing baseball during that time and was raking. There’s no question that if he had been called up at age 24 or whatever he would’ve hit well and not killed the team defensively while playing third.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

"Every bit as good"? Hardly.

Edgar never had any season CLOSE to what Big Hurt was in 1994 (.353/.487/.729!). He only reached your 1020 OPS twice in those seven years. Thomas did it six times.

People forget what an awesome player Frank Thomas was in his prime.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That's "close"?

Thomas’ peak was significantly higher, and lasted significantly longer.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep in mind Thomas' age 22 dot and age 36 dot were half seasons...

I count 9 monster seasons for Thomas (counting the two partial seasons as one) and 7 for Martinez.

Thomas’ career wrc+ was 154 in 10,000 plate appearances vs. 148 in 8,500 appearances for Martinez.

Thomas played in the field for 1,000 of his 2,300 games. Martinez played about 500 games in the field in his 2,000 games.

To me these two players are very close.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

And I do give Martinez extra credit for getting...

screwed out of most of his 20’s by the Mariners.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

For reference purposes

On a percentage basis, Martinez falls behind Thomas on OPS+ (not claiming it’s the superior metric, just the one I can find most quickly) by just about the same amount that Mark McGwire does behind some guy named … Pujols.

I certainly wouldn’t call THAT one close.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It's pretty close...

McGwire has three more dots above the 450 line that are cut off of this graph.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty nasty four year downturn...

but as much as I’d like him to fail, I suspect he has a few more monster years left.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

They're not dragging down their team with shitty defense.

They bat – something that some of them do to HoF offensive standards – several times a game, facing all sorts of pitchers. They’re not equivalent to a LOOGY.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 8, 2012 9:50 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

I don't think that argument is necessary. Let's say Frank Thomas DH'd as much as Edgar.

Frank would get my vote. The problem for Edgar is that he’s good candidate but not an overwhelming one.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike Piazza.

As a player called games. Either ability to “call games” is over-rated or he was way better then everyone thinks on defense.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 8, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If mcgriff had hit 7 more homers to reach 500

Is he a HOFer?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 8, 2012 3:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Nah...

These round numbers don’t matter. That said, now that I look at his numbers, he might be in the borderline group with Walker.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, mcgriff really has sneaky good numbers

he’s probably never gonna make it…but i wouldnt call someone an idiot for wanting him in…he’s always been one of my favorites

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 8, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

To me, Jack Morris is one of those players where if he gets in, you have to go back and

say…“Well what about Luis Tiant, Dennis Martinez, etc.”…I’d vote Larkin, Bagwell, and Raines. Everyone else is pretty borderline.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not Edgar?

Would he have been more valuable as a vastly below average 3B or a below average 1B?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, the stats already attempt to penalize him so to speak with positional adjustments

and even after that he looks like he has a damn good case in my opinion. I have some anti-DH biases in me, but I don’t think DH players should be kept out on principle or anything.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Worst defenders in the HoF by Total Zone

1. Dave Winfield (-89 runs)
2. Willie McCovey (-78 runs)
3. Harmon Killebrew (-77 runs)
4. Jim Bottomley (-73 runs)
5. Willie Stargell (-70 runs)
6. Joe Morgan (-49 runs)
7. Lou Brock (-49 runs)
8. Robin Yount (-46 runs)
9. Harry Heilmann (-44 runs)
10. King Kelly (-44 runs)

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I reiterate:

If Dave Winfield or Willie McCovey played DH for their entire careers, they are no longer hall of famers?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

McCovey is an interesting case.

Adjusting for era, he was almost exactly as good a hitter (e.g. by OPS+) as Edgar Martinez. He maintained that high level for about 10% longer than Edgar did. And he did play the field, if poorly.

Incidentally, McCovey’s closest comparable, according to B-R, is … Fred McGriff.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

7+.

Being old enough to remember Stretch playing, I was surprised to see his defensive numbers that bad. He wasn’t considered a notably bad (read: Dick Stuart level) defender at 1B at the time. Much of McCovey’s bad overall TZR was that he was sometimes pressed into service as an outfielder, and he was indeed practically immobile out there.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, he was pretty bad

he had a pretty bad rap at the time — i remember the broadcasters talking about it and his routes to the ball always were pretty bad. He was not the fastest guy either (he was quick which made him a good base stealer).

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 8, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate to say it

But I think Lou Brock might be an over-rated baseball player, in general.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

world series wins don't hurt

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

His election was pretty much a no-brainer at the time

3000 hits and all-time stolen baseleader = HOF

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

He completely dominated back to back world series...

back when there were no playoffs. That made a huge impression.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Overrated compared to

a whole host of other HOFers? Yes, but not so overrated that he didn’t deserve the HOF.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 8, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're under-rating Biggio

Biggio: 70.5 fWAR, 66.2 bWAR
Brock: 53.4 fWAR, 39.1 bWAR

I wonder how much of it is just that stealing bases isn’t as valuable as people think it is? Even setting aside the problems with the SB/CS ratio required to add positive value, one stolen base just isn’t worth all that much.

Even though Henderson, for example, stole tons of bases, he was also valuable for other reasons. He played some really good defense, hit over 500 doubles, almost 300 homers, he got on base like a madman (lifetime .401 OBP, that’s over the course of 25 years in the majors), and he had amazing longevity (he was at least an average player for something like 20 years total in the majors, and often a damn good player). Stealing is just one small thing a player can do, and I think it still gets over emphasized somewhat.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

You got me on Biggio. Thanks for that research.

Henderson has got to be in the upper tier of HOF’ers. He’s that good and speaks in the third person.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 8, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Henderson is kind of a weird example because he was so damn good for so long

Anyway, I think stolen bases is the reason people thought Lou Brock was better than he was. I have a feeling Henderson would be a HOF caliber player without stealing a single base. I dunno if Brock would have had a chance of getting elected without his base stealing numbers.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Was there a scarier lead off hitter then Henderson?

Power, speed with a great eye. And that’s not talking defense either. I loved watching him play.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 8, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock

was essentially forced to emphasize base stealing by his first Cardinal manager. What if that mandate had not been dropped on him and he had spent his career as a #3 hitter, for instance, and tried to hit more HRs? No one knows what kind of numbers, and image, he might have had.

Dude got 3000 hits; in my book that alone is a HOF pass.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 8, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

That's some pretty wild speculation

And 3000 hits, while not exactly easy to do, is still arbitrary. I’d rather go by his actual contribution to winning. The advanced stats we have are far from perfect but they tell me that Brock, over the course of his career, wasn’t actually helping his teams win quite as much as a lot of people probably thought.

Don’t get me wrong—50+ fWAR is nothing to sneeze at, and it’s right around what the minimum for what I consider Hall-worthy. So I’m not even making the argument that he’s not a HOFer. I’m just saying that he’s over-rated as a player in general.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

If we're going to speculate, then I'd like to talk about what Bo Jackson could have done

if he hadn’t tried to play football and baseball at the same time.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 9, 2012 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

This means nothing without plate appearances to be fair.

Biggio had a shit ton of plate appearances that inflates his WAR a bit. (FWIW, I wouldn’t vote either player in the HOF as an unbiased voter.)

President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter

by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

brock trails so far behind typical HOFers in terms

Of WAR, there’s not a very good sabermetric case for his inclusion (ditto dizzy dean). If there’s a case for brock’s proper inclusion, it’s probably for his unique basestealing skill (and, for the tradition-bound, 3000 hits).

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 8:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This is pretty much what I meant, yeah.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, he also had a +16.0 UZR for his career when he DID play the field

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you a small hall kind of guy?

You’re a reasonable man, I’d love to hear your arguments against Edgar

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd be fine if Edgar got in. I think I'm probably a mid-size HOF guy.

I do dock him a bit because he played only half the game (for a good part of his career, at least).

Also, if we’re looking at other “all-bat” guys – is Manny a HOF (yes, based on offensive numbers, IMO)? Is McGwire (I’d probably vote McGwire in, BTW)? What about Berkman (no)? Jason Giambi (no)? Jim Thome (yes)?

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=818&playerid2=1086&playerid3=1008559&position=1B/DH&page=8&type=full

(I thought this was an interesting graph)

You have to draw the line somewhere, I guess. If I’m drawing the line, I’d probably put Edgar in, but it’s not a complete shoe-in. If we were to assume -4-6 dWAR from his numbers (Giambi takes an -8 dWAR hit, McGwire takes ~ -4 dWAR, etc.), Edgar starts getting closer to the Dwight Evans/Keith Hernandez zone, which is not a good place to be for my HOF vote.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, pitchers

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

This is non sequitur though

For comparisons with other potential HOF pitchers, pitchers’ hitting is not considered.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 8, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's foolish

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think their hitting should be ignored

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

So, someone like Carlos Zambrano

~31 pitching fWAR
~8 hitting fWAR

That’s over 25% of his career value. That should be ignored when considering how he good he was as a player?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh okay

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

if the guy wasn't a good enough candidate to get it as a pitcher

why would you put him in the hall because he was a decent hitter? This is nonsense. He’s either a HOF pitcher of a HOF hitter. Not some sort of BS hybrid candidate that was pretty good at both

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 9, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Then why do pitchers even hit?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Well they aren't hitting to improve their HOF chances.

Honestly, they probably shouldn’t be. I grew up on NL, so I prefer the pitcher batting. I highly doubt I’d feel that way if I grew up in an AL city.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 9, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you insane?

Pitcher’s who hit better are more valuable. Hitting is part of a pitcher’s job.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 9, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

it has nothing to do with their hall of fame candidacy.

Name 1 pitcher that has ever or will ever make it to the hall because their hitting put them over the top. None. It’s never happened and never will.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 9, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

it's quite ridiculous to suggest

its even a possibility. Are you guys insane?!

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 9, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

but is that because we shouldn't consider both? or because there aren't

a lot of 50 WAR pitching/20 WAR hitting HOF candidates?

how is considering both kinds of pitcher value different from considering someone who was a good hitter and a good defender at shortstop or in center field, but not good enough to get in merely by considering offense or defense in isolation?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Who gives a shit?

Hitter’s have to bat, at least those in the NL, which means they derive some of the value from their hitting.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:34 AM EST up reply actions  

the discussion is based on the HOF
You think borderline HOF-candidate pitchers should have their hitting abilities compared to each other?

by Willie McGee’s Twin on Jan 8, 2012 6:24 PM EST upreplyactions

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I know

But part of a pitcher’s job is to hit. You can’t ignore it in hall of fame voting, which rewards players for how well they do their jobs.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, maybe I'm high...

I thought you were saying Ruth’s pitching was considered in electing him to the Hall.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

The Wizard is another.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah those 3 were really good

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Not terrible

but Morris just wasn’t that good a pitcher. Edgar is also doubtful — although I give a big markdown to DHs on principle.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 8, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

"Let me go all Skip Bayless on everyone for a moment"

Never ever ever do that. Ever. That said, that was good analysis on all seven points

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 8, 2012 3:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

at what point are most of the projections systems published?

I’m mainly thinking on fangraphs. and do they have plans to use the same ones as last year, or are they changing the systems or adding any new ones?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

I've partially figured it out

http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=fan&team=0 looks like they are going with zips, rotochamp, and marcel (and fans of course). nice… but when do they all get published by? I see there’s a zips spreadsheet download, but do they put those on the site at some point?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

That's where Szymborski publishes them.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

ah thanks

I figured I’d have to wait, it’s still pretty early

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder why that page doesn't have the Bill James projections

They are on the player pages along with the Fans ones already.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

my guess is that the publish the bill james ones because nothing else is available

but don’t consider them one of the more accurate systems they want to have on their projections page. still, it would seem to make sense to put them there in case anyone is interested. the way that site is laid out is kinda weird sometimes, even though it’s probably the best stat site as far as that goes.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably is about the best single site, the amount of information is kind of incredible

I suppose you could argue that B-Ref is better for certain purposes though.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Just took ten minutes out of my &%&*#*#$*%& Sunday afternoon of work

to watch Game 6 highlights. Hadn’t done that for a while.

That shit was cool.

by Pegasus on Jan 8, 2012 4:09 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting fanpost comparing Gavin Floyd to Kuroda and Oswalt

at BtB.

Gavin Floyd is a pitcher who really flies under my radar.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:10 PM EST reply actions  

Gavin Floyd hats Schilling?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

While they were on the same team?

Because Schilling was gone long before Floyd got there.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

ha..i was just throwing that out there, but I might be right..
A Celebrity Deathmatch between Curt Schilling and Cardinals starter Garrett Stephenson never materialized either after verbally sparring all week. Stephenson opened fire with: “It’s hard to respect somebody who goes overboard. And he (Schilling) knows everybody knows he does.”

The Curt reply?

“I don’t want to waste a lot of breath on him,” Schilling said. “I don’t have any respect for him and never will. This just shows he’s as dumb now as he was then.”

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Beat me to it.

by Upset on Jan 8, 2012 5:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

As I recall,

Schilling wasn’t real fond of Garrett Stephenson when they were teammates.

by Upset on Jan 8, 2012 5:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah

Look pretty top heavy, but there is a potential for a lot of well-rounded position players. Not a lot of bad defense either (if I’m reading that part correctly). Starting pitching kind of underwhelming.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

They really need Latos...

also, Bruce’s 2011 zips was 125 ops+. He’s going in the wrong direction.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a point at which I thought the Reds had all these awesome young starting pitchers

I’m also really curious to see Colby’s ZiPS.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

it's hard for me to see how he puts them in contention.

I mean, they’re not a 70-win team, but they still look like they’re about 8 wins from contending.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 8:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The value of Leake, Arroyo, Bailey, Wood, Chapman, and Volquez...

totally collapsed in 2011. This time last year they looked to have seven average to above average starters. Now they have two above average guys and a bunch of filler behind that.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

understood that they're better with latos.

I’m just saying I don’t think they’re close enough to contending for latos to make a substantial difference in playoff probability in the votto era, and I don’t see a plan for the reds to become better after votto leaves.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 9:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I would've been tempted to trade...

Votto for a bunch of pitching and/or an outfielder, but of course Jocketty is too close to retirement to do that. Having an $80 million is extremely limiting.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Deedee Pujols could not have said it better. . . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Jan 8, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

indeed.

Actually, they need to offer manny a contract. They need some cheap, high-upside option to get them a few more wins. Manny Ramirez seems like potentially a HUGE upgrade in LF.

Tell ownership that if they’re serious about taking a chance this season, find an extra $8-10m. Sign manny and rich harden. Both could be useless or woirth a ton.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 11:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

and probably closer to 3.

Manny signed for $1M, last year, before sucking, and then being suspended for PEDs. And Harden, $1.5M last year, before putting up the second-worst season of his career- worst being 2010.

Can’t imagine anyone would give either a raise, but I’d love to have Manny available to come off the bench.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2012 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Is that the Daryl Jones that was in our system for a while?

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa, I totally missed this

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a van involved

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 8, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

he was released by the cardinals

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 8, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

thought he just became a minor league FA?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 9:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

doesnt that mean he was released?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 8, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

After a certain number of seasons in the minors

players are no longer beholden to the team that drafted them. When their contract expires, they are free agents.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 8, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

but jones hadn't reached that total yet, had he?

i was under the impression he could have been a cardinal had they not cut him loose

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 8, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

he was an 05 draftee out of high school

i think it is six years so yes, he had reached that point.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

no it just means he was a free agent.

Just like the Cardinals didn’t “release” Albert Pujols

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 8, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

cumulatively, they don't match up on either side of the ball

With the cards or the brewers. They still look like a 3rd place, 85-win team.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 7:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

azru, did you keep a record of your set-ups for the different challenges in Kingdom Rush?

Can’t get thru the Heroic Challenge in the Wastes.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 8, 2012 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

I seem to have cleared my cache of that game so I can't see that level.

I was really frustrated that I couldn’t look at my towers after a win/failure on a level. If you screen shot it, I can probably tell you want I did.

Basically, I used the mage and arrow towers really heavily and then used the barracks like filters to just slow the waves. I would often finish levels without ever upgrading barracks. If it was a level with lots of little guys or fast guys (wulfs, spiders, goblins) I’d use artillery. I found the sorcerer to be better than the arcane mage and the rifleman to be better than the arrow towers.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 8, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh crap.

they upgraded the game with new levels. crap crap crap crap crap

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 8, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

OT

Anyone else enjoying watching Tim Tebow outplay Ben “bad wheel” Roethlisberger?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 8, 2012 6:00 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

Apparently, thru 2 quarters, anyway

Tebpw>Roethlisberger

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 8, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll never count Big Ben out

and Tebow’s passes are laughably ugly, but darned if those two long balls weren’t perfectly placed on that first TD drive.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 8, 2012 6:21 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I just noticed your tagline. Did Gibby really say that?

I thought he always claimed he never threw at people.

Who's got it better than us? NOBODY!

by spfldbird on Jan 8, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Too good to be true

Squeaky-clean Tebow vs. Ruthlessboinger

Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam

by peppermartin on Jan 8, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

this game is a win win for me

if the steelers win, I can root against them this week. if the broncos win, ditto

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

err, next week

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

ugh, I hate NFL overtime rules

I am a Steelers fan, but even the new rules suck. At least baseball gives both teams a chance to score. Imagine a Game 6 where the Rangers win because they scored first…

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Even with the new rules the game can still be decided on a coin flip

which is pretty ridiculous

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont mind the reviews, because the zebras miss plenty of critical calls

I don’t agree with how they are coddling the quarterbacks now. And say what you want about Bud Selig (whom I really dislike) he’s nowhere near as bad as Goodell or Stern.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

any 3 hitters having a turn to bat gives a team a chance to score

re: Descalso, Jay and pitcher’s spot (LF Kyle Lohse)

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

what

i understand how baseball works. i’m asking about football over time

by prophetjohn on Jan 8, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

at first i thought you meant figuratively

and i was like come on people, how is my question not clear, but then i remembered that tossing a coin is literally something that happens in football. thanks

by prophetjohn on Jan 8, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree on this

If I dislike any professional athlete, it’s Ben Roethlisberger. I’ll take Tebow over that.

by Robth on Jan 8, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

i cant take it anymore

boycotting espn this week. its unbearable

by Wombat x on Jan 9, 2012 3:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't worry guys, it still works

Game 6 of the World Series>Tebow

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 8, 2012 8:17 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions   1 recs

For no other reason than I'm looking at it now:

Twinkie Town draft order as of Dec 30

Cardinals: 19 (Pujols), 23 (Regular pick), 36 (Pujols), 52 (Dotel), 61 (EJax), 86 (2nd round regular pick)

Those later picks can still move around a bit depending on other FA signings.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 8, 2012 8:17 PM EST reply actions  

Wow...

I didn’t relize there were so many comp picks.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Tim Tebow Total Passing Yards: 316

316……….3:16. John 3:16

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Jan 8, 2012 8:44 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

and the refs today

matthew mark luke john…at least what i heard

because TLR

by punchinjudy on Jan 8, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I watched this movie last night

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

And his yards/completion average or something like that was 31.6

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 9, 2012 12:06 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Boy's birthday today.

His cake:

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 8, 2012 8:51 PM EST reply actions  

the fuck is that?

German chocolate cherry pie?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 8, 2012 11:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Pretty much, yeah.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

41 days, three hours, 53 minutes until Spring Training

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

(This number subject to change)

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 8, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Live baseball!

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 8, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh...

The link says it’s Navojoa and Culiacan.

Famous Navojoa players include:
Dyar Miller
Whitey Herzog
Rickey Henderson

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 8, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

This exchange was actually present on the PD Cards Talk board
How about the Cardinals bring back former utility infielder Aaron Miles he has veteran leadership is a proven winner. Had a decent season in 2011 275. AVG with 3 HR and 45 RBI. He can play 3B, 2B, SS. And would be a cheap option to replace Nick Punto. Plus he could be the Cardinals go to Position pitcher with Shumaker.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/milesaa01.shtml


Here Here….Punto is a waste of a roster space..Bringing back Miles would be a brilliant move, but do you think he would sign cheap?? like what, less than a million>? I thought the Cardinals dealt him because his value has increased, and they wanted to save a few bucks.??

That is all.

by ViperLjs on Jan 8, 2012 10:55 PM EST reply actions  

A stupid point

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2012 6:56 AM EST up reply actions  

ahahahahahhahah

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

oh..........fuck me sideways

people like that shouldn’t be allowed near a computer.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 9, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Just watched The Artist

The hype is for real, y’all

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:02 PM EST reply actions  

It has a very, very limited distribution right now

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

where did you torrent it

it’s kind of hard to search for if you catch me

not that i’ve actually heard of this movie, so i don’t really know what hype you’re talking about

by prophetjohn on Jan 8, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, no, I watched it in theaters. But I had to drive 25 miles to see it

The basic gist is that it’s a silent film, and it’s getting a ton of hype for Best Film and Best Actor and all of that

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I don't know what to tell you, because the movie is fantastic, silent or not

I will say that it’s very aware that the audience is aware that they’re watching a silent film, and it makes for some very awesome moments

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I'm glad you enjoyed it

It would have been pretty annoying to drive 25 miles for a bad movie

by ViperLjs on Jan 8, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

is the main character deaf?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

So why is it a silent film?

Just for novelty?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

It's actually a silent film about a silent film star in the 1920s who is being fazed out due to talkies

And it doesn’t make sense why this film is silent until the end

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

VEB, give me some comedy movie recommendations

Don’t hold back on the raunch.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2012 11:34 PM EST reply actions  

Firstly, have you ever seen Airplane?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

winged migration...

make sure you have a 50" tv and some weed.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 8, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Love that shit

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 8, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

seen it

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 9, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

bad santa.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 12:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

seen it

one of my favorites.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 9, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Looks like the team might be sending me to the Sloan Sports Conference!

Ballin’, yo

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 9, 2012 12:12 AM EST reply actions  

is game of thrones on HBO good?

i’m out of stuff to watch. it looks like this show has lots of naked women at least, which i guess just means that it’s an HBO series

by prophetjohn on Jan 9, 2012 12:24 AM EST reply actions  

very very good

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

YES

READ THE BOOKS TOO

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Jan 9, 2012 1:14 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

DO BOTH

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2012 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not that good.

Production value is great. The narrative in the show is choppy and pacing can be uneven.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 9, 2012 8:55 AM EST up reply actions  

The Walking Dead suffers from a fatal (bu-dump ching) plot defect, IMO.

The plot only moves forward because the characters do dumb things that any person with an ounce of common sense or intelligence would not do. This is the laziest plot device possible and makes it unwatchable to me.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 9, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

But yeah, there is really nothing interesting about most of the characters

And the best ones (Darryl, and I guess Rick sort of) are just mediocre compared to characters on good shows

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Jan 9, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

zombies are also huge at cons right now.

darn cosplayers.

"Hey, why don't you people watch the game?"-my mom after viewing a wave going around Chase Field.

by Reynolds rapper on Jan 10, 2012 4:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I completely agree.

I guess I see that as a script problem and not a casting problem.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Very excited

reasons 6 and 7: Prince Fielder is leaving the division. Ryan Braun suspended for 50 games (including 6 against the Cards)

"Hey, why don't you people watch the game?"-my mom after viewing a wave going around Chase Field.

by Reynolds rapper on Jan 9, 2012 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

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