The St. Louis Cardinals' Short-Term Rebuilding Plan
by DanUpBaby on Jan 31, 2012 9:01 AM EST
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The Roy Oswalt news continues in its stagnant way—what we know as of this morning (and keeping in mind that the Cardinals would like nothing more than to make this post completely obsolete this afternoon) is that they and the Rangers are both interested and that the Cardinals are shopping Kyle McClellan. If it comes down to who can trade their swingman fastest, I have to think the Rangers have the advantage—Koji Uehara, who should probably be closing somewhere, has a strikeout-to-walk ratio of 10 in two years as a relief pitcher.
So we don't know whether Roy Oswalt or Jake Westbrook will be making 30 starts next year, but we do know that the Cardinals have made a choice as to their immediate post-Pujols future—one that is taking a fascinating advantage of the changing economics of baseball. As prospects and pre-arbitration players become more valuable, the Cardinals have counted their prospects, paid for Jaime Garcia, and plowed the Pujols dividend into a bunch of thirtysomething ex-Astros.
The Cardinals have given themselves two years to act like a big-market team with a bunch of expensive, potentially valuable players—the two years it should take for their top-tier farm system to mature.
I can't emphasize enough how impressed I am by John Mozeliak's work here. Without Roy Oswalt, here's the trick the Cardinals have pulled: They'll go from spending $95 million on veterans as old as Yadier Molina in 2012 to $60 million in 2013 to $17 million in 2014. It's not quite Albert Pujols, but it's an impressive bit of consumption smoothing for a team that was expecting to pay for Pujols and Matt Holliday for the next 10 years.
If everything works perfectly—and it probably won't—the Cardinals will have a chance to graduate Shelby Miller, Zack Cox, Kolten Wong, and whomever else might pop up on the cheap from the top prospect rankings. If everything doesn't work perfectly, the Cardinals will have a lot of money to play with on their next rebuilding attempt.
It's a big step up from what used to pass for reloading-not-rebuilding—Kyle Lohse, 2009; Jake Westbrook, 2011—and as a result I'm not sure how sustainable the current economics of baseball can be. At some point other teams are going to realize just how valuable nine Lance Berkmans in a row might be relative to one Prince Fielder for the nine years. But for now, from Rafael Furcal and Carlos Beltran to Roy Oswalt, the Cardinals have taken advantage of it.
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The Brewers sign Corey Patterson: I have to say, as glad as I am the Cardinals haven't signed Corey Patterson I'm a little disappointed the Brewers have decided to throw over last year's ex-top-prospect sixth outfielder, Jeremy Reed, for whom I've had a soft spot ever since he hit .373 in his first full season between high-A and AA back in 2003. Such is the allure of arbitrary end-points: If he'd hit .409 over 66 games out of 100 in AA he'd have just been a prospect, but since he hit that over his only 66 games in AA he was briefly a top one.
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Dmitri Young wants to call it a comeback: I don't know if I can ever remember Young 75 pounds under his last playing weight of 295, even when he was allegedly a third baseman, and as improbable as it is with players like Derrek Lee forced into near-retirement I'd love to see him make it back.
The Cardinals didn't really have anything left for him to do after the Mark McGwire acquisition, but I think it's still safe to call his trade, straight-up, for Jeff Brantley one of the misfires of the Walt Jocketty period. Brantley was already having shoulder problems when the Cardinals acquired him, and he was as combustible as you might imagine in 1998 before slipping awkwardly into retirement by 2001.
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Young
I recall opening a pack of Fleer and getting a rookie Dmitri and thinking I hit paydirt back in the day. He really seemed like he could have been a cog to turn those ugly 90s teams around.
But then again, I also thought Felix Jose was going to be awesome.
But he WAS awesome!
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Jan 31, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I actually thought Felix Jose WAS awesome
Until I learned how to calculate VORP and WAR.
That made me hate the Joe Torre era Cardinals….
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
You guys needed advanced stats like VORP and WAR to tell you the Torre era Cardinals weren’t very good?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
that's no excuse
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
by Aranathor on Jan 31, 2012 10:53 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
penn state motto.
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Actually, I think their motto is quite the opposite.
More like…
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Joe Torre was 351-354 as a Cardinals manager
and had three straight teams win 83 or more games. In today’s game, you can win the World Series with teams like that!
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I see what you did there
Bob Nightengale didn’t laugh
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
the 90s were somethin else
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Um....
3 of those teams won 80 or more games. So, yeah, when you look at records they seemed to be pretty decent. In fact, the span from 2006 – 2008 was nearly as lucrative in terms of wins as the span from 1991 – 1993. The difference? No wild card, no cheap division titles, thus: No World Series run.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Agreed completely.
We had, like 5 players we could love in the early 90’s, and all but Ozzie, in hindsight sucked.
Rex Hudler, Dmitri Young, Bernard Gilkey, Felix Jose, Milt Thompson. Those guys were going to be the core!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Huh?
What about Lankford, Pedro Guerrero, Gregg Jefferies?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Brian Jordan?
And never, ever forget Tripp Cromer.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Rheal Cormier.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
He was no
Donovan Osborne.
Teach Me How To Torty
by HollidaysofThunder on Jan 31, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
John Mabry?
Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue parceque je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte
I now call him O.G.
for Original Grit. He was the gritmeister of my childhood.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
But, but
Tom Pagnozzi!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 10:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Jim Lindeman!!!!!
(actually, he played under Whitey……I just got excited since he was the greatest baseball player I’d ever seen until I actually saw him play)
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Pags was a good catcher.
He just couldn’t hit for shit.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 31, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
basically
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 31, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Funny you mention rookie cards
I found 2 sets of cards last night. A huge box of 92 Topps Baseball cards and a Shaquille O’Neal rookie card.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite card is that of Manon Rhéaume
When I was a kid, I thought owning that card meant early retirement.
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Jan 31, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
I had the one where she's all sexy and in sepia tones.
Classics..? Don’t remember.
by openside on Jan 31, 2012 5:02 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I have that one somewhere along with one or two Teemu Selannes
If you like baseball...you'll love my ROKU !!!
by Red Blazer on Jan 31, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Havent tjought of this guy in forever
Probably because he always seemed a huge
Disappointment
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 6:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Felix Jose was awesome
in Korea.
He owns two of the very best offensive campaigns in the 30 years of Korean baseball history; he hit a ridiculous .335/.503/.695 in 2001 and .327/.425/.636 in 1999.
Cardinals fan from Korea
by FreeRedbird on Jan 31, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Speaking of rebuilding
What value does Jaime Garcia have in a trade?
Not that I’m suggesting that we should trade Garcia but the Cardinals are short on young, elite position players. While they will have cash to spend on position players in 2014 and beyond, what value could Garcia bring back?
If Miller and Martinez do progress forward, along with Lance Lynn, do they make Garcia a trade option for bringing back a good, young offensive game changing position player?
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 31, 2012 9:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I would think that his contract
bumps his value considerably. To consider trading him, I guess I would have to be getting back a CF/SS/2B prospect that is ready for the big leagues this season or next.
I don’t think he’s a guy you get multiple good pieces for, unfortunately.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Uncle Walt chuckles at your last line. . .
He’d offer four good prospects for Jaime if he had any left to offer. Garcia isn’t Mat Latos, not exactly, but they are similar enough that I would expect Walt to value them similarly.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe not Garcia
but we might get multiple big-league-ready prospects for Miller. Does a swap of 1 for 3 make this palatable for anyone?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Depending on the pieces, a 1 for 3 is always palatable
Especially if you’re the team getting the 3
by cardinalswsbound on Jan 31, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I have a soft spot
for Jaime and I’m still hoping he’ll be one of those cliche lefthanders that takes a few years to figure it all out (though he’s already quite good, we’re not talking Pete Falcone here), but does so and becomes a monster. I’d like him to be our monster.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
Not only does Jaime not resemble Pete Falcone
neither does he evoke memories of John Curtis.
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 31, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
two names that I really never want to see again.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 31, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
The big question is:
Is there going to be a marquee FA (or multiple above average FA) to go after with all of the club’s millions should we clear all that payroll in 2014? Most of the players that I can think of off the top of my head are either signed to long term deals (2015 or longer), will become FA prior to 2014, or are pitchers who I would love to have on my team, but paying any pitcher $20M+ is a recipe for becoming the New York Mets. Not to mention, if half of our current pitching prospects pan out anywhere near their ceiling, our rotation could be set for the rest of the decade with cost controlled talent.
I don’t have the time to peruse through MLB contracts today to see who might be potential targets in 2014, but it would be interesting to see how that crop of FA fits into the potential roster construction of that club should things go 75% right with our current prospects/2012 draftees.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Another consideration
Given the strength of our farm system and potential payroll flexibility, are there any elite players that might be available via trade a year or two prior to free agency. I’m thinking an Adrian Gonzalez type of player.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
This raises a question for me
Our system has reached a point where we MIGHT be able to fill most positions of need with internal replacements. Who we look for could be dictated by what our need areas are. Right now, looking down the road, we seem to be covered at: SP, RP, 1B, 2B, 3B, LF. Areas where we might need help could include: C, SS, RF, CF.
Does this look about right? If so then possible targets could include BJ Upton or Mike Napoli.
Ryan Jackson says we have a ss prospect
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
by Aranathor on Jan 31, 2012 11:01 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Yeah but he's a C prospect
His upside is a 2.5 WAR player
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
And I'll take that
from our SS. For the next two or three years, we should score a few runs with Holliday, Freese, Craig, and company.
And considering our history with shortstops, a 2.5WAR guy with a fantastic glove and a bat that isn’t embarrasing is a pretty fine deal.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Ryan Jackson is a high floor low ceiling kind of guy
2.5 wins is pretty solid from SS
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
You mean like that floor in
Being John Malkovich?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't remember if that was a high floor or a low ceiling....
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
It's both
just like Ryan Jackson.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
Napoli is not so great at C, I doubt he'll be better as he ages.
And Oscar Taveras is our RF prospect. Personally, I’m a fan of Tommy Pham. I want to see what he does this year before I jump to trade for a CF.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
With the way Napoli hits, he will likely be playing more first base in the future.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Napoli would be a nice signing,
although maybe its just the WS afterglow.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Bah.
His team lost the WS. Therefore he is a loser. Jake Westbrook, OTOH. . . .
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Westbrook for Napoli!
Torty Craig, we hardly knew ye.
by KlausChadman on Jan 31, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
I've always been a fan of Napoli, but as a 1B he's not that impressive.
His numbers last year were tremendous, but prior to that he was merely good — not big-dollar-FA good.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he did seem to be kind of "in a zone" and hitting the crap out of every ball
But I think it’s not quite a smart bet to assume he’ll keep hitting in a Pujolsian manner. However, I expected Bautista to regress a bit and he actually got better. So who knows.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
He had a .344 BABIP last year and he set a career high in HR/FB rate at 25%.
His K% dipped a bit, to be fair, but was still ~20%.
His power is real enough, but most projections have him hitting .270-.280 — not .320 like in 2011. I think that’s about right. He’s a good hitter, but not a big money guy to get excited about.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I suppose you could argue that his production would be helped both by more PAs from playing first base, and from not having to put his body through playing catcher as much. However, he’s also gonna be thirty next year so who knows how long he’ll keep it up even if he does pick up where he left off.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
He's not exactly selling jeans either.
I think there was some real uptick in his numbers last year, partially from increased PAs and some 1B/DH duty like you said (and some genuine appreciation from the club’s management), but I just can’t see him being a true talent .300 BA guy.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I think he had another year with a ~.320 BABIP
and he was still hitting in the .270-.280 range for batting average. So, yeah. I agree.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
What is a typical HR/FB rate for a power hitter in Arlington?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Good question. No idea.
It wasn’t THAT high above his previous career high to be fair. My point is just that he’s probably no a 5+ WAR guy annually going forward, and I wouldn’t want to shell out top dollar for a 4 WAR guy.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
I had the espn feed on the PC during the WS
and every time Napoli would hit something, the rangers beat reporter would tweet something about “Year of the Napoli”. It made me want to punch him repeatedly.
Anyway, that whole thing just gave off the fibe that he was just having a great year and will probably regress back towards the mean.
I'm not willing to concede we are "covered".....
at 1B. I assume you mean Matt Adams. I’m not sold on him being an above average 1B at the ML level. Not yet at least.
An average first baseman would not cover us?
I’m not too optimistic about Matt Adams because he doesn’t walk enough, but an average first baseman for $500K isn’t too bad.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I agree
It’s probably biased by the fact that we had a premier player at 1B for the last 11 years, but 1B seems like a bit, huge, question mark after 2012.
We may, however, have sufficient coverage if all of Cox, Wong, Carpenter, Taveras prove capable since someone (Freese, Craig, Cox(?)) could always move to 1B if Adams or Hamilton don’t pan out. I guess we are better set there than my initial reaction, huh?
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 31, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's likely that Craig is the first baseman in 2013
with Beltran in right field and Jay in center field.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
How do you feel about another year of Berkman?
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'll be happy if Berkman gives us a productive 2012 at age 36.
There aren’t many everyday players that are 37 years old and productive. To me, bringing Berkman back would be pushing the Cardinals’ luck.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The age is a concern,
but I think he is going to provide good value this season and could do average value the next. Now, that would mean 2013 isn’t a great signing, but I think he is valuable in setting the post-Albert tone. I think the most dangerous thing with losing an icon like Albert is the loss of identity. That sounds like a lot of voodoo magic in a saber blog, but I see these next couple years as important to reestablish credibility in the coaching and team leadership.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Cross-sports example:
Nothing is as bad as losing your identity and then not being able to give anyone a fair chance to rebuild because of prior expectations…. like the Rams.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
We have the following players under contract or club control for 2013:
Matt Holliday, Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Jaime Garcia, David Freese, Allen Craig, Carlos Beltran, Jon Jay, Daniel Descalso, Tyler Greene, Tony Cruz, Rzep, Motte, Salas, Sanchez, Boggs, and Lynn. I’m not too worried about this group losing their collective identity.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I agree,
I guess I just mean to say that I like what Berkman brings to the table and I wouldn’t mind him back for a third year, unless he shows precipitous decline.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I am a huge Lance Berkman fan, but that doesn't mean he should play first base at age 37.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I wouldn't be against it in theory
if he’s still productive this season and it’s a good deal.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I agree with you.
But I think those are two big “if’s.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Also depends on if Matt Adams has a AAA season like his first half season at AA.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
See that's what I was more getting at,
I would actually be ok with keeping Berkman if he is still productive over giving the job to Adams, under most circumstances.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Like I said below, it really depends on how they look at the end of the year.
And how the offense/team looks in general.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
That's where the
long and storied history of the Cardinals comes in handy; we’re not relying on one or two players for our mystique.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
It's not a decision we should try to make right now.
It’s clearly something you determine after you see how Berkman and Adams played this year.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
This, but switch those positions.
Craig at 1B, Beltran in RF.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Oops, should have checked what this was in reply to.
My bad.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
i thought you were just being snarky
i lol’d
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
The problem I see with that.....
Is that I (and this is my personal opinion), don’t see any studs out of that group, other than possibly Tavares. Cox, Wong, and Carpenter are all solid, and I like them a fair bit, but I don’t see them as being difference makers. We’ll need to look at replacing the AP/Holliday/Berk part of our lineup from last year. Or insert Beltran for AP this year. Maybe Craig produces at that level, I don’t know. We still likely need a 3rd big bat though. And I’m just not sure I see it coming from our system. And that is fine, I’m not complaining. We can trade for that bat, or try to find it via FA. Just pointing out that we don’t have much in the way of 1B prospects, and that 1B is a position I prefer to get better than average production out of. Especially if we’re getting cheap, average production at other positions due to our system.
None of Craig, Jay, Motte, Freese, or Garcia were ever considered "difference makers" in the minors either
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I'm not sure I'd call them difference makers now, except maybe Jaime.
Good players all though. Farm really only needs to strike gold once or twice — you can’t try to have 9 difference makers. Adams and Taveras (for pos. players) have that upside. I’m fine with that for now.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
That's, more or less,
the same problem I see. Again, we are certainly biased by being used to superman at 1B and that’s not going to happen again, but I’m not sure we can put together enough smaller pieces to add up to that production either.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 31, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
What does it take to impress you?
Oscar Taveras was the best player at his level in all of baseball last year. I mean, that’s pretty impressive. Wong has the potential to be a 3-4 WAR player at 2B, a position which we haven’t found a productive home grown player since Tommy Herr.
I think we have a lot of good talent in the minors and some of those guys are going to break out. Some won’t. But I’ve seen a lot of “studs” fall flat on their face when they hit the big leagues, while less heralded guys (like, oh, Albert Pujols?) become the player of the decade.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Not sure why I'm responding, but here goes.....
Taveras was really good last year. And I noted that in my original post. But there are a LOT of questions about how he is expected to do as he progresses. Will his swing hold up? Will he mature? He might. I hope he does. Like I said, above, I noted that he may be the exception.
What I’m talking about though is finding guys to replace AP/Berkman/Beltran. I don’t care how good the rest of the team is, you need a solid middle of the order. THAT is where I’m not sure, outside of Taveras potentially, our system will help much. I’m not sold on Adams being that caliber of player. And nobody else really projects as a middle of the lineup hitter. That was the point I was trying to make. And I wasn’t "dogging’ our system in making it. Just pointing out an area of weakness, and an area we might need to fill via trade/FA.
That okay?
matt adams was ranked the 7th among all first base prospects out there, iirc.
that’s pretty good.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
my guess is that Wong is going to be the best draft pick in years and years
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Upton would be interesting
though I’d prefer his brother, as Justin is younger, and just seems less volatile. Even if he doesn’t currently play CF, I bet he’s got the speed and arm for it. Napoli is 30, already almost a year older than Yadier.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Justin is fantastic
i’m not looking at him, but he’s gotta be in the top 25 trade value on that fangraphs list, right?
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Justin Upton is a right fielder
Always has been. Always will be. He doesn’t have the speed his older brother has, but has an absolute cannon for an arm.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Clubs are locking people up
This is anecdotal, but if feels like many ball clubs are spending an increasing level of resources on locking down their “core” pieces for multiple years. There are a few people who theoretically are available as free agents next year. But how many will actually be there by the end of the 2012 season?
Here are a few possible targets that we could look at next winter (based on baseball prospectus):
- Mike Napoli
-Josh Hamilton
-BJ Upton
-Shane Victorino
-Matt Cain
-Zack Greinke
These are people without options. But I can’t see more than half of them making it to the winter without getting signed. Napoli, Upton and Cain would all be attractive, but they are bound to get tied up by their club. So who do we pay for? Maybe the new strategy for successful clubs is:
a) Draft for High Upside
b) Lock down low-risk players through arbitration years
c) Avoid long-term mega-million contracts
But I could be wrong…
I could see Upton...
The two pitchers are looking at Zito-type contracts. Maybe 5/75 for Upton, but then there’s the maturity concerns. Is he going to check out after getting the big money?
Sign Roy O
Well
Maybe 5/75 for Upton, but then there’s the maturity concerns. Is he going to check out after getting the big money?
Some people might say Upton checks out on a regular basis already lol
flayed ones stealth mode
"Fleshling! Do not shoot! For I am one of you fleshy things. It is I. Your Uncle Stan. Can't you tell by the long strips of fleshy substances covered in bodily fluids? Trust me! I have fleeeeeeeeesh."
If he could assure us that he would check out to the tune of 4 war every year...
then 5/75 would be a good deal.
Sign Roy O
i know this is the old stats speaking
but i have a really hard time paying a guy who hits less than 25 home runs a year and bats approximately .240 15 million dollars a year.
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
i mean, isn't he Colby Rasmus? with better defense, maybe?
and we just traded that guy with team control, and now are advocating paying that same guy 15 million bucks a year?
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
He's bad Colby but with elite defense and 40 steals...
the thing about Upton though is that if gets some luck on bip he could be an 8 war mvp candidate.
Sign Roy O
BJ Upton is not an elite defender...
but yes, agreed on the BIP luck thing- and on the upside in general. i just don’t see why we’d pay that guy $15 million- that’s what a larger market team does. we’re paying BELTRAN only what, $13?
mumble mumble Peter Bourjos mumble mumble
Beltran is an injury-prone, 35 year old corner OFer...
Upton has no injury concerns, he plays a more valuable position and he plays it well, and he’s entering his prime. I’ll bet he gets denied the $100 million contract because of his perceived attitude and his bust reputation, but somebody will get a good deal if they give him the Bay contract.
Sign Roy O
What about Votto
in 2014? He has what, 2 years left. And with all the big money teams locking up 1st basemen, there won’t be huge dollars to throw around. I’m thinking us, Dodgers, Nationals and Texas maybe at that point.
by The Gottfather on Jan 31, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Ooops
Cut me off.
I’m not suggesting he’s who I’d want, but he could be an option. Personally, I’d rather see us get a cheaper option like Jason Kubel, Adam Lind or Travis Snider (if he’s available by then) and spread the money around at SS, CF and C by that point. Why spend 18-20 million a year on .300/30/110 when you could spend 6-8 million on .270/25/90?
by The Gottfather on Jan 31, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
Votto would be entering his age 30 season in 2014, I believe.
Given the current trends, I don’t know that I’d want to give him a contract that’s 8-10 years in length and likely worth over $200MM.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
right
I was just tossing some names out for 2014. Like I said, I’d rather get a 31 or 32 year old Kubel or 31 year old Lind who can hit 25-30 HR and play passable D. That way the Cards can spend on some other areas.
by The Gottfather on Jan 31, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I'd like to see Adam Lind and Travis Snider actually post a .370 wOBA before I go hunting for them in FA
Especially considering that they take as much off the field defensively as they bring to it with the bat.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
It's pretty clear a well-run mid-market team...
should never, ever get involved in the bidding for the big name sluggers. This is an area where billionaire owners go around the baseball people and take their counsel directly from the marketing materials produced by Lozano and Boras. There will never be a shortage of these kinds of owners – the Nationals, Marlins, Mets, Dodgers, Giants, Cubs, Astros, Blue Jays, Orioles, White Sox, Rangers, and Mariners will all be ready to spend over the next few years on someone like Votto – not to mention the possibility that the big three (Phillies, Yankees and Red Sox) could somehow jump in.
Sign Roy O
Matt Holliday worked out fairly well, IMO.
I think you’re largely correct in your assessment but there are always exceptions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Pujols,
Fielder, Werth, and Crawford all strongly indicate that inflation at the top end has really jumped since the Holliday contract was signed…
Sign Roy O
Makes me chuckle how
that contract was largely panned, when it was written. Now, Holliday’s deal seems perfectly reasonable. Possibly even team-friendly to some extent.
Its important to realize. . .
that the same could happen for the Pujols contract. It is well within the realm of possibility that the $/WAR could inflate.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
well, maybe on an overall basis
but he’s never going to be worth what he’ll be getting paid on a yearly basis in his 38, 39, 40, 41, etc seasons.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
And that's an important distinction.
Holliday’s contract ends after his age 36 season with a club option for his age 37 season. Pujols’s contract will only be at its halfway point after Pujols’s age 36 season.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You can't know even that.
I mean, you’re probably right, but probably = 40-50%, not 99%. Ten years is an eternity in monetary terms. We might all have jetpacks by then, after all.
Or be paying our bills in yuan or pesos or something.
And even short of those somewhat outlandish scenarios, 5-6% inflation over those 10 years, either in real dollars or just in $/WAR, can change the numbers substantially.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
we got bigger problems than baseball if we're running at 6% inflation
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Not if it's just in $/WAR
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 12:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
By definition, probably > 50%.
So it can’t = 40-50%. I agree it’s less than 99% chances, but it’s still significantly better than 50% chance.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
This is true and Albert is a truly elite player who can go to DH later
Albert’s last contract put him among the top five annual payrolls ever at the time and now it should be considered one of the best bargains in baseball history
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 10:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'd love to have Votto
but the Cards should not be in on him, if the current trend towards insanity in the FA market holds up. He’s going to want 8-10 years in the 25 million range, and some idiot owner will give it to him (or near it).
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I don't Wat anything to do with Hamilton, Cain or Grienke
Those are bad contracts waiting to happen. Votto will be free at the same time we free up payroll
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 10:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Victorino on a 3Y$36M deal would be a coup.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
circa 2004
Forget Oswalt. I hear the Angels might be looking to deal Dan Haren. I am still in mourning over that trade. Let’s get him back.
You think they'd take
the rights to Mark Mulder and Kiko Calero?
by The Gottfather on Jan 31, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
All that rest should have Mulder's arm close to healing
Word has it he’s progressing nicely
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 11:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Stem cell surgery come from adult stem cells, not fetal. There is no pro life issue with adult stem cells
Also no politics
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 12:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
VEB doesn't frown over many things, but political stuff is one of them.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 31, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't even making a statement.
Suppan was in a commercial about stem cells. That’s a fact. I wasn’t making a value judgment one way or another.
#givelancechants
Whoa, this is a family blog
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
are you discriminating against families of gypsies,
they are people, too.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 31, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
So, they're from Arkansas?
Speaking of which, whatever happened to our Arkansas commenter (can’t remember his name off-hand)?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Arkansas Travs?
pretty sure he still posts. Unlike Y2S. COME BACK Y2S
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Not sure. Maybe?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
I was just thinking the same thing...
#neverforgetY2S
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
You guys pine like a 14 year old girl.
He’s gone. Unrequited feelings are unbecoming.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Jan 31, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah, you should go away and see if anyone cares
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 31, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
i'm wayyyy too active...
on twitter to truly ever “go away”
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 31, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Y2S was way too active on VEB to truly ever "go away"
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that's just like, your opinion, man
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
still
its unnerving that he would just disappear.
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
Android app rec
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 31, 2012 8:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Well...
…I just want him to know someone hasn’t forgotten him… ya know… forgive and forget… i think with all our egos on veb, if we didn’t welcome back our friends/fellow regulars, then we’d slowly lose everyone and then our identity/etc… which is one of the many reasons I come back daily… and I miss his commenting… that’s all… :( (I also like to think he sees these and smiles which would make it requited… and if he doesn’t… then its bliss, I guess – and I’m fine with that)
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
yeah, IHB still exists.
you just have to track her down.
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 31, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
She got tired of the nincompoops on here
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, no one wanted to come right out and say that
but I’m not sure even that was the main problem. It may have been the whole “slut/whore” commentary that finally turned her off. However, I don’t do twitter, and maybe she’s commented other stuff on it?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
someone missed me??
wow. I’ve just been busy. I’ll get back into it more when the game begin.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 31, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Don't they have small hands?
Or is that Carnies?
Come on, baseball
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 31, 2012 9:32 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
carnies have small hands
that smell like cabbage
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Jokes are no laughing mattter.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Jan 31, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Yeah, this humor stuff is serious, guys
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Jan 31, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I assumed this was true but was not 100% certain
Anybody know more specifically what Bartolo Colon’s injury/ailment was?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Morbid obesity
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 31, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hurt his shoulder
Doing the snatch and jerk
by mattyfrommo on Jan 31, 2012 12:35 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
He Bartolo'd
his colon.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I think he was a Type 2 free agent
and that is a fat joke.
by mikey_mac on Jan 31, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Roy would make a fine addition to our ball club
He’s a gamer who goes out there and gives 110% every time he touches the old horsehide. You look up “guts” in the dictionary, you see a picture of one Roy Edward Oswalt, aka the Wizard of Os. The St. Louis Nine could well use a man of his intestinal fortitude.
Baseball is a red-blooded sport for red-blooded men. It’s no pink tea, and mollycoddles had better stay out. It’s a struggle for supremacy, a survival of the fittest.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
by Cha-Cha on Jan 31, 2012 11:07 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
Sarcasm or not, he's not the Wizard. There is only one Wizard of Oz in St. Louis
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 11:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's the joke -- Wizard of O_S_
Pronounced “Ohs”, like the first syllable of Roy Oswalt.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Or the last syllable of Cheerios.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Make mine Honey Nut Cheerios though -- I just can't go back to regular Cheerios.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
what if it had bananas in it?
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
Then put the bananas in my Honey Nut Cheerios.
I mean, I’ll eat them if there aren’t any Honey Nut Cheerios around, but otherwise…
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
I hear ya...
Honey Nut Cheerios are good…
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
Ew
I agree about Honey Nut Cheerios, but no bananas please. Bananas should be Foster’d.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Those are delicious, but I also love bananas in my cereal. Fantastic, always.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I like both of those quite a lot!
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
I havent tried the peanut butter cheerios yet
I just hope they’re better than the chocolate cheerios
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
seriously, i don't want you posting here anymore
if you’re buying cheerios, there’s no excuse for anything other than honey nut
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
honey nut are my favorite
and thats just like, your opinion, man
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
I really like them.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 31, 2012 8:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
This!
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 7:00 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Intestinal fortitude. Check.
Lower lumbar fortitude. Eh…
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 31, 2012 11:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Heh
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Do Old Hoss Radbourn better.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I salute you
Give me 3 Radbourns pitching on 2 days rest, and I shall deliver to our fair city a champion nine that shall burn forever in the annals of Base Ball history.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
A rec for you, sir,
with only a word of reproach for appropriating the moniker of “Wizard” that rightly belongs to a beloved franchise stalwart of a bygone era.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Duly Noted
A pox on those who would besmirch the good name of one Oswald Earl Smith, Esq.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Osborne
Earl Smith. Sorry, I’m no grammar police, but that can’t stand, man.
Teach Me How To Torty
by HollidaysofThunder on Jan 31, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
I am! I am!
That can’t stand, man!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
I checked Fangraphs
Looks like Roy has only been giving 102% the last couple of years. Does this point permanent downhill slide?
fangraphs and baseball-reference have different formulations for percentage-giving
baseball-reference looks at how much effort they gave, while fangraphs tries to adjust for the kind of day they were having, and whether they’re the kind of person who’s been known to care too much.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 31, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
With, no doubt,
an EP+ (effort-percentage+) normalized to their leagues.
Wouldn’t you need a stat that incorporated where the player resides on his personal “best shape of life” scale in any given season?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Which reminds me
Have the Tigers banned donuts in the locker room yet?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 12:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There'd be mutiny.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
If you ban donuts in the clubhouse,
they’ll just get their donuts out on the streets. Dangerous, unregulated street donuts. Is that what we really want?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Powdered donuts even.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
they actually just traded
that malcontent Brandon Inge to the White Sox, who in return agreed to stock the Donut machine in the clubhouse for the next 3 years
"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
I just use park adjusted wTEff
(Weighted Trying and Effort)
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
What's the scientific principle that says "you can't observe without changing"?
I wonder if they’re accounting for the fact that the person observing Roy’s mood might have changed his mood. Maybe they are required to stay a certain distance away.
I think Bernoulli's is the relationship between the pressure and speed of a fluid
Or something like that.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
thatsthejoke.jpeg
bad science is funny, you know
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
HAY DAN WHERZ MAI SARCASUM FONT???///
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Ahem, I mean
I hate it when I fail to detect sarcasm.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Is it the reason why when my wife's pug make some disgusting smell in the back seat,
I can crack he window and lock the rest, thus pulling all the smell under her nose on its way out?
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Heh.
I have no idea but that should be a question on a physics exam.
Anyway, I think most of the lift of an airplane is really just generated by deflection—that is, the wing, which is slanted, exerts force on the air and the air in turn exerts force on the wing.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Or something
Basically, there’s some reason why “Bernoulli’s Principle” all by itself is not a rigorous description of why planes fly. It’s kind of over my head though, it’s been a while since I studied any of this.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Part of it is because the air going over the wing and the air under it do not take the same amount of time
to go past the wing, which is a common fallacy.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Common fallacy / what we were taught in elementary school.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
right
bernoulli is about lift, which keeps the plane in the air
speed of air over the wing greater than under, so vacuum (=fewer molecules per cubic inch) on top lifts plane
that is all
TLR is gone, long live the king
No
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not convinced.
The man missed a lot of time with back “issues.” Were I his manager, I’d say “I see nothing wrong with your arm, son. Get your ass out there, you sissy milksop.”
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
the only "back problems" that ever caused Old Hoss
To miss a start came when a gentleman known in the greater Providence area as “Bad Bartholomew” stabbed Hoss with a dirk, in a dispute over the affections of a lady.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 31, 2012 1:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that was no lady
that was the jezebel Willis, late of the Rochester Willises. A dastardly minx if ever there was one, known to inhabit drinking establishments and gambling halls.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Other possible nicknames for Roy Oswalt:
The Lone Gunman
Roy Boy
Roy Orbison Jr.
Vi Le Roy
Seabass
Doze-walt
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 31, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
auls walt syne
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Jan 31, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Now that I realize that this is a reference to his affinity for large earth-moving machinery
and not a condition he inspires while pitching, I like it too.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, he's the earth mover
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 1:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Lone Gunman
Pitching from the non-grassy knoll.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
How about BoB Roy?
(For Birds on Bats of course)
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Royale with cheese
(when he throws a fastball, of course)
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
How about Psycho Os Beast
This one is a tribute to the Wayne’s World movie.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Jan 31, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Roy "Dont Call Me Munson" Oswalt
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
I like Dozewalt
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
From Azruavatar productions:
Part the second of a Q&A with John Vuch. Catch it now over at Future Redbirds!
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 11:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
wait, the Brewers signed Corey Patterson?
bahahahahaha
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
by d-dee on Jan 31, 2012 12:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That was my reaction too
I’m surprised more people haven’t commented on it.
I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.
In their defense, it is a minor league deal with no invitation to major-league Spring Training.
He’s their Koyie Hill, in a way.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
oh, i didn't know that
that totally ruined it
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
We signed Koyie Hill
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 1:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So we all agree
Never again will we have to see Corey Patterson in a Cardinal jersey. No more pictures
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Dmitri Young
B-Ref shows that he was drafted as a 3B, but he actually played almost exclusively SS in high school, of memory serves. As a #4 overall pick, he would have to be considered a pretty successful one,
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 12:23 PM EST reply actions
66 wins
Wainwright, with his lost season, stands at 66 wins.
What is a reasonable number to expect him to be at come the conclusion of the 2014 season?
145 career wins would put him in the franchise Top 5.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 31, 2012 12:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
over
105
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Depends on how good the Cardinals offense and defense is.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You know I wasn't saying he was going to get to 145 by 2014
I was saying he needs to get to 145 to get in Top 5 and how many do you think he’ll have at conclusion of 2014.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 31, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Jan 31st
and I have the windows open, enjoying a nice breeze.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 12:30 PM EST reply actions
Jan 31st
and I have my fly open,
enjoying a nice breeze
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 31, 2012 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Just gotta air it out sometimes.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, me too. The young'un and I were just playing some baseball out in the yard.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
by Tackle Box on Jan 31, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
it's all about context......
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
yeah, me too. The young'un and I were just playing some baseball out in the yard.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Random Wishful Thinking Trade Talk....
So, the Cardinals supposedly are in talks with the Orioles for VEB’s favorite swing man, and the Padres and Diamondbacks apparently are interested in McClellan as well. Given the idea that the Cardinals are probably looking at a mid-level prospect in return, and going off of John Sickels’ Top 20 lists for each organization, who would you like to see come back in return?
Orioles
Padres
Diamondbacks
(Probably no A- or B-graded prospects)
Cardinals aren't looking at a prospect, they're looking for salary relief
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
That's what salary relief is...
Mid-level prospects typically don’t make the majors unless you’re lucky.
The $2.5MM in McClellan's salary being given to Oswalt is all we need.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Take our fringy middle reliever.
Please!
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
If the Cards get an A-ball lefty or something then I'd be a-okay with the trade.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You wouldn't be okay with the trade if it was for cash considerations?????
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
Can't we just leave him on the Orioles doorstep
with his contract pinned to him?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
...
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
by Tackle Box on Jan 31, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'll give you some love
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 31, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for noting the obvious.
Any trade that happens, however, will bring back something. That’s what I’m asking.
No way Kmac brings back anything of value
In return. If they can dump him without eating any salary, thats an accomplishment.
by mick311 on Jan 31, 2012 12:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think the cardinals would be getting the luis perdomo special and salary relief
if they were lucky
In this case, the Luis Perdomo special
is lunch for the GM, prepared by Luis Perdomo.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
If this is just about salary relief
then why did the Cards offer KMac arb ? Whether VEB agrees or not, it seems the team must have valued him enough to offer him arb. They must be looking for something besides salary relief. Or am I missing something ?
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 31, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
and I think it will prove easy to unload Kmac...
Someone would’ve paid him $2.5 million if he had been a free agent. Jason Marquis got $3 million.
Sign Roy O
Marquis has been a starter his whole career
and had a non-terrible year last season.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
If the Cardinals knew that the difference between having Roy Oswalt come February
was resigning McClellan, McClellan would have been non-tendered.
It’s all hindsight now.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
This is true.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It looked like a bad signing at the time.
Now it just looks like a horrifying, flaming train wreck.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
I was not a fan of the decision to tender Kyle McClellan a contract at the time of the decision.
I think McClellan is paid too much for how skilled he is at pitching. Signing McClellan for 2012 effectively bumps a better pitcher down to Memphis. What I didn’t raise back then was the lack of flexibility the club would have to sign additional free agents. That’s because I never thought in a million years that Oswalt and Jackson would still be on the market, potentially for one-year deals.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'm not so sure a McClellan trade stands in the way of signing Oswalt.
I think trading him makes constructing the roster a hell of a lot easier, but it’s not going to prohibit the signing.
Ultimately, they could straight up release McClellan. They probably won’t, but it wouldn’t really hurt anything.
This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.
- Jackie Brown
mutter, grumble, mutter.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I think they valued him at $2.5 million
and they valued roy oswalt at $8-10 million. the problem is that around the non-tender deadline they assumed the market valued mcclellan at $2.5 million and roy oswalt at way more than $8-10 million.
It is not just about salary relief. . .
It was about depth. If Wainwright suffered a setback in his rehab and Carpenter went down on the first day of ST (a la Wainwright 2011), both of which were (and still are) far greater than zero likelihoods, having K-Mac around for $2.5M is a very good thing. Having Roy Oswalt around for $10M isn’t necessarily a better thing than having K-Mac around for $2.5M, but it is definitely a higher upside thing.
Finding a relacement-level starter for $2.5MM who is willing to sign with a club with no spot open in its starting rotation is not as easy as the hivemind would like to think.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
"replacement level" is, by definition, supposed to represent a player you can go out and replace for free
if it’s hard to find one for $2.5 million then it’s not defined correctly.
Because it doesn't work out that way IRL
Jason Marquis is practically the definition of a relacement-level starter (actually, he’s been worse than that until last season), yet he gets $3MM.
K-Mac is a replacement-level starter, and he got $2.5MM, and probably would have gotten more in free agency. There are countless other examples, too.
The concept is a fine starting point for discussing value (as you have to start somewhere), but it doesn’t actually work out that way IRL.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
You mean the Jason Marquis who's been worth 12.2 WAR over his career?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
He's not talking about actual pitching effectiveness in the quantified sense of run prevention.
He’s talking about his own subjective categorizations.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
12.2 WAR over an 11-year career
is no great shakes.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
But it's very much above replacement leve, which would be 0.0 WAR.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
We're not talking about "great shakes"
We’re talking about whether or not he’s a replacement level pitcher
He is clearly not
None of what you are typing makes sense
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
but we are talking about "great shakes"
I still say vanilla shakes have the best long-term potential, based on past performance. Chocolate I find slightly overrated when adjusted for $/WAR.
Strawberry……..well, let’s not even talk about strawberry, ok?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Steak n Shake's half-price happy hour is the new market inefficiency.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Steak n' Shake
is neither steak, nor shake, and needs to just come out and admit it.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Strawberry is Bondsian
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
You're pinch hitting for me?
I hit nine homeruns today
With 6.7 fWAR in '90
Darryl was close to, but not quite, Bondsian.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Metropoliton yo
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
What type of shakes is 0.1 WAR over a 4-year career?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 31, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
~*~*~*~*~*~THE CALLOUT~*~*~*~*~*~
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Just because a few r-l guys get overpaid every offseason, doesn't mean there aren't r-l guys for free, essentially, on AAA teams everywhere
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
well, by definition. . .
if they are on AAA teams, they are not freely available talent (unless they are subject to the Rule 5 draft).
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Go to mlbtraderumors dot com...
and click on 2012 free agent tracker with the relief pitcher filter. You’ll find a ton of unsigned guys.
Sign Roy O
Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I'm talking about a team's own farm system.
Those guys get paid the league minimum. It’s as free as it gets in MLB. And I used “essentially” as a qualifier, cut me some slack here.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Even with strawberries.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
there's a "virgin strawberry marquis" joke in here that i'm not going to make.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
He's saying you're assertion that it's hard to find a replacement level starter for $2.5 million..
is illogical by definition.
Sign Roy O
If both of those things happen, having KMac around just isn't going to matter much.
You start stretching out Boggs and Lynn and pray for well-timed rain.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Maikel Cleto
Brandon Dickson
Chuckie Fick
Samuel Freeman
Jason Motte
Adam Ottavino
Adam Reifer
J.C. Romero
Marc Rzepczynski
Fernando Salas
Eduardo Sanchez
Jake Westbrook
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Sold him an iPhone two months ago because he lives in Marthasville (across the river from Washington where I work)
He didn’t have the MLB employee discount on his plan. I was like, “let me fix that”. Oops
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 1:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My father-in-law lived in Marthasville.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 31, 2012 3:04 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Skip Schumaker
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Jordan Swagerty.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'll give you
Motte
Scrabble
Salas
Sanchez
Westbrook
None of those other guys project to be better than K-Mac. And of those who project to be as good (if there are any), those projections are by no means safe ones.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 31, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
And none of those other guys are burning a $2.5M hole in the budget, either.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, aside from Wb, they ALL get paid less than K-Mc
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
McClellan is a reliever.
His projection to be as good as past McClellan is by no means safe, given reliever volatility.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I have more confidence
in reliever-KMac than in starter-turned-reliever “Dead Arm” KMac, contract aside.
Because Matheny
I don't.
His 2010 was a mirage based on a 90% LOB rate. His career LOB rate is about 76%. The league average is usually around 75%. Without that LOB rate, McClellan is a revliever with a 3.70-4.20 ERA. You could throw a fairly heavy rock at Roger Dean Stadium in late February and hit a pitcher capable of that level of run prevention.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
lynn, fick, and swagerty all have projections
Better than mcclellan.
For that matter,if we wanted to spend money, any of almost a dozen free agents are or were available for $2.5m. Brad lidge just signed for $1m, and he’s significantly better than mcclellan.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 31, 2012 1:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
chad qualls just signed for $1.15m and he's
Significantly better than mcclellan.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 31, 2012 1:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Lidge signing ...
well, words were said around Casa de Continental. Terrible, awful words.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
for $2.5m, the cardinals could have signed
BOTH qualls AND lidge, then bought me a nice 3BDRM house with the leftover cash.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 31, 2012 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
no matter how you look at it
offering kmac arb was a bad decision from the get go
and unfathomable
TLR is gone, long live the king
modestly talented but increasingly expensive club-controlled players are nontendered
or traded for minor talent all the time.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
not quite fitting this bill, hawksworth was traded for theriot because he was
okay but getting more expensive. theriot isn’t quite the level of uselessness that i’m reaching for, though.
tyler johnson was the last club-controlled cardinal i can recall being nontendered.
a famous nontender for reasons of expense from recent years was kelly johnson.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
And boy, did it seem to affect him.
He pretty much fell off the face of the earth for 2008, resurfaced on Seattle’s AAA Tacoma team briefly in 2009, and then disappeared again. He wasn’t horrible, I guess he was….dunh dunh dunnnnnnnnnh….Replacement Level (low echoey voice)!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Him being Tyler, not Kelly.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
it seems like a fine gamble
he had numbers (ERA, win) that suggested he was decent as a SP. i think the goal the whole was to try to trade him and get anything back. pretty much the worst case scenario happened
kyle was a replacement value starting pitcher. i sure hope nobody
in the front office is seriously looking at win totals as a serious metric in evaluating starting pitching. as a starter, he had a 4.21 ERA/4.54 FIP/4.26 xFIP line.
there was no space for him in our bullpen and his trade value was doubtful.
the present scenario was completely predictable and actually predicted by a lot of people on this board.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
4.21 ERA/4.54 FIP/4.26 xFIP line
so, a pretty average 4/5 starter
and i mean maybe someone predicted that the cardinals would be trying to sign a starting pitcher when they already have and that (that cardinals would publicly claim that) kyle mcclellan’s $2MM was the difference between making that upgrade, but i don’t think the best remaining free agent starting pitcher begging you to sign him is a particularly likely scenario, predicted or not
i mean
that line is a little worse than what the cardinals traded ryan ludwick for when he had value and that was viewed as a pretty even trade at the time. the cardinals then signed him to what was viewed by many as a pretty solid contract
it’s not that unrealistic to think that mcclellan would have some trade value for $2.5MM for some team needing back of the rotation help
you don't think kmac is worth $2.5MM
to some team that needs bullpen/rotation help? the contract isn’t bad because it’s too much money, the contract is bad for the cardinals because there are better and/or cheaper players to do his job. but he’s a capable reliever and a less than horrible stopgap as a starter
i have no idea. however, much better relievers have gone for
far less than $2.5m so far this season. any club that didn’t want to bid $1.5m for lidge or qualls as a reliever seems unlikely to want to pay $2.5m for kyle.
the other argument for his trade value would be that kyle has a unique swingman role. maybe – i see garland and rich harden still on the market. maholm went for $4.5m. maybe we find somebody to take on his salary, but i think he’s pretty unexceptional at $2.5m.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
livan hernandez just signed a minor league deal.
mcclellan is a lot closer to hernandez than maholm.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
so some people that are better than him signed for less
i hope i don’t need to go seek out my own anecdotes to show that $2.5MM is a reasonable salary for a competent reliever
it’s not a bad contract in a vacuum. it’s not a good contract in the context of the cardinals, but the whole thing is pretty blown out of proportion and the odds that it was going to be the difference between the cardinals making a sizeable upgrade in the rotation seemed pretty remote at the time
i'm not sure why we're talking about "in a vacuum."
it was a signing the cardinals made. it wasn’t made in a vacuum. even if you can find comparable contracts, all that says is that the cardinals would get zip in a trade; if you can sign a comparable pitcher for $2.5m, why would you trade anything of value for him?
the cardinals took on the risk that he’d be untradable and that his contract would prevent them from making other moves. it seems like the risk of the move outweighed any marginal upside.
making what are at best even market value signings of players who are redundant in your own system and hoping to trade them is not a recipe for success.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i'm talking about in a vacuum
because the specifics of the market on jan 31, 2012 were unknowable when the contract was tendered
i agree that the worst-case scenario (what happens if his contract does prevent the cards from signing oswalt, which hasn’t happened yet) is more damaging than trading him and getting a middling prospect in return is beneficial, but you have to weight each outcome according to likelihood. when you do that, on the day the contract was tendered, it’s not particularly a recipe for disaster
i think we'll just have to disagree on the relative
likelihood of good and bad outcomes at the outset.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
What's the going rate for $/WAR?
Isn’t it like $5M? Even at his best K-Mc was worth just 0.4 WAR, so < the $2.5M he’s being paid.
Though it wouldn’t surprise me if some team valued him higher than $2.5M anyway, it’s not quite so clear cut that someone would want him.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
right
so if we assume that fWAR is perfect at evaluating relievers, then it’s a slight overpay
but i still don’t think it was a bad move at the time to roll the dice on a depth move for (what i consider to be) a moveable contract
the depth argument doesn't work, i don't think
people have already shown that there were many players in the cardinals system already who were better than KMac.
So the only value in re-signing him was to trade him (or possible as a chemistry move. Now if we can get back more than just his salary in a trade, I’ll agree with you, but that doesn’t seem likely.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
i don't think what we get back is the best metric
i’d be a little surprised if he wasn’t traded before spring training moving almost all to all of his contract and getting a non-prospect in return, but it’s more about whether it was a reasonable expectation to think we could move him and get something in return.
i don’t think a market where oswalt is begging the cards to sign him for below market value and jackson is settling for a one-year deal for well below market is particularly predictable. i think in a typical market, kmac is movable for $2.5MM
Well, only if you assume K-Mc's true value level is 0.4.
But he accumulated -0.6 last year. I mean, it wouldn’t look foolish to project him at replacement level. It’s not immovable, but you’d have to find some people that don’t know analytics that well and/or really believe in K-Mc.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
he also switched to starting
and had a HR/FB rate that resembled a balloon. i think he’s probably around replacement as a starter, but has value in relief and can be useful as a swingman
career FIP as a reliever - 4.29.
net career relief value: -1.1 runs.
“has value in relief” seems hard to defend.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i have no idea where you got those numbers from
i’m not sure how to separate his relief from his starting last season, but his overall numbers are 4.36 FIP/4.16 xFIP and 0.1 fWAR. i highly doubt that his 17 starts last season were worth 1.2 fWAR
more likely he’s about a 4 FIP reliever who accumulated 0.8 fWAR over three years before killing his value by sucking at starting
Team splits
KMac was worth .3 WAR as a starter last year, -.9 WAR (!) as a reliever:
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
His career WAR is .1
So I think its safe to call him replacement level.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
so it is the case
i think there’s probably something weird going on there, though. like maybe they blew up his arm starting before he went to relief or he has a 19% HR/FB
from 2008-10, he was worth a whopping
2.5 runs a year as a reliever.
that’s splitting the hair pretty fine, and assuming that his relief performance in 2011 is exclusively exhaustion, and not partially skill-related.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i must be losing it
if i can’t read fangraphs anymore, but i see from 2008-2010 a whopping 0.8 wins above replacement. every single outing is him as a reliever, so this can’t be explained be me not knowing where to find the splits. i checked again and i’m definitely looking at the right column
yes. and if you divide 7.7 runs
by three, you get 2.5. hence, 2.5 runs a year.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
so he averaged
a quarter of a WAR per season over three seasons
that’s probably around average for a reliever and about $1MM overpay.
i can’t work myself up too much over that
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
but we had players on the roster who were better than that
and free.
So even assuming that there was no chance we could get a bargain type player in free agency, it was still a wasted cost and roster spot.
And there was definitely not “no chance”. Oswalt was always a possibility (or should have been), ditto Lidge, and others.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
he's still a possibility
i guess i should have emphasized sooner that mcclellan has drawn interest.
i think it’s more likely that mcclellan is moved (probably to the orioles) and oswalt is signed than not. if the cardinals get anything resembling a prospect back, then that’s what i perceived as the whole point. and the market for pitchers is weaker than most would have assumed, i think.
if it blows up in their faces, maybe it cost them a win or two in the season if they don’t move him near the deadline.and that sucks.
but to loop back to the point i’ve been trying to make the whole time i think it was worth the risk to try and get some sort of prospect out of him
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
Alright
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
but the reliever you're describing is pretty bad
so if i’ve somehow made a terrible mistake in looking at his numbers, then you’re probably right.
the career FIP comes from his career splits
fangraphs page (starter v. reliever split).
the career WAR as a reliever comes from the final “value” section of his general fangraphs page; overall, he’s been worth -1.1 run as a reliever, and worth 2.8 runs as a starter.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i read runs as wins
that’s less ridiculous
but is it crazy for me to think that -0.9 WAR in in 37 IP is probably not representative for the guy that average 4 FIP and xFIP the previous 3 seasons?
no, his FIP was way elevated above his xFIP
But his career WAR as a reliever is still -.1.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but you don't just throw it out
I don’t see any reason to way it less than his previous seasons.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
*weigh
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
i would weigh it less
because it’s clearly not representative of how he performed. same as if he had a 2% HR/FB, you’d assume he’s worse than his numbers indicate
But you'd weigh it more because it's more recent
So that would even it out.
Fine, don’t look at FIP at all. Just look at his xFIPs.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
i'd rather look at it all
and try to make an educated guess about what actually happened. his FIP and xFIP agree up until last year, so it doesn’t seem to matter
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
37 innings isn't representative.
it rarely is.
so, you take the biggest sample possible (which is what i gave you). taking the parts of a career that you don’t like out and considering the remainder is not the best way to analyze somebody.
anyway, if your best argument is that if you squint at his career the right way, he looks like a 2-3 runs above replacement reliever and therefore $2.5m is a good deal, i don’t think you’ll find many converts.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
taking the parts of a career that you don’t like out
is that really as clear as i’m making myself? because i thought i was trying to look at context to make an evaluation that was more educated than looking just at the number which are largely driven by an FIP that’s 1.5 runs greater than a corresponding xFIP
i’m not saying he’s innocent for his 2011 numbers. i’m saying i think it’s fair to look at the context when numbers are clearly the result of some bad luck and potentially other factors like fatigue (but i looked at his velocity and it looks like his FB most went back to where it was in 2010 after he converted back to relief)
I would say they were partially the result of bad luck and pitcher fatigue
his xFIP was still 4.59 out of the pen. And you can’t blame that all on fatigue, a lot of that is likely just him being worse than we previously though.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
okay. and even if you ignore 2011
entirely, he’s a barely above replacement value pitcher.
2-3 runs above replacement per year. is that worth $2.5m?
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
almost all relievers
are “barely above replacement”
i think it’s worth close enough to $2.5MM to make the weeks-long hand-wringing over it like it’s the vernon wells contract a little much
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
you also can't accept his
2009 FIP, which was based on a likely LUCKY HR/FB rate of 6.9% but refuse to accept his likely unlucky HR/FB rate of 13.8%.
which is why it’s disingenous to take out the parts you don’t like while keeping the bits you do.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 31, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
capital letter time?
the reason i haven’t nitpicked about a third of a run difference of his FIP/xFIP split in ‘09 is the same reason i didn’t nitpick the exact opposite split that says in 2010.
what i’ve keep saying is that he averaged about 4 FIP/xFIP 2008-2010. if you think that’s me being “disingenuous” or i’m trying to pull one over on you or whatever, then maybe it’s time for this conversation to stop because i’m trying to evaluate this honestly and rationally and you obviously getting upset about it
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Right, there are certainly fair arguments to be made that he might be above replacement as a reliever.
But I don’t think you could fairly project him for more than, say, .2 or .3 WAR, and that’s generous after last season. That’s still not worth $2.5M. I doubt half the teams would value him at >= 2.5M, and then you have to figure out who still has money for that, who needs a bullpen arm, who you match up with, etc. It won’t be the most impressive trade ever to move K-Mc, but it’s not a no-brainer either.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
lots of people said "gosh, all the money going to skip and kyle could
be used to retain players who are more than replacement value."
although VEP actually mentioned oswalt specifically:
it’s still really annoying because it takes away a roster spot on a worthless player, and we would be a third of the way to Oswalt with his salary.
as did the continental:
$2.5M less for the Roy Fund.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i didn't refute whether or not anyone predicted it
i’m saying that someone predicting the scenario didn’t mean it was particularly likely or necessarily worth planning for
Well of course you don't think it was particuarly then
Or you wouldn’t have been arguing against it. Re: Oswalt. But then again, you’re opinion doesn’t mean anything either.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
never miss an opportunity to tell someone they're wrong
and insult them in the process. you’re such a likeable person
I didn't insult you
You said “just because someone predicted it, doesn’t mean it was likely to happen”, which I agree with 100% of course.
But your opinion on what is likely to happen is just as worthless as all of ours, since none of us is in the FO.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
peej, this is like the pot
calling the kettle…
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Whoever looks good in Memphis at the time,
freely available talent, and/or a minor trade. It’s the worst possible scenario. There aren’t any good solutions.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
You're clever
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 1:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Your first sentence has got me
wondering about what this year’s spring training injury ambush will be. I refer to the announcement on day 1 of camp, a nearly annual occurrence, that some important player just had surgery the week before or has been consulting with numerous doctors re a serious injury that will keep him out until June 1.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Kyle McClellan has been traded for some Old Bay seasoning.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Jan 31, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would have held out for the sack of potatoes to sprinkle it on too
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Whomever it is
I hope the press release describes him as having a “really live arm.”
#givelancechants
I'm excited.
Remembering the Edmonds for Freese and Ryan for Cleto trades, Mozeliak has a knack for getting pretty interesting players for guys who the Cardinals are ready to give away for nothing. The Padres probably have the best system but I think the D-backs and Orioles have a few low level players that are more interesting.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
JoeStrauss: Hearing growing intrigue about... well, who cares, right? #stlcards
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
he's talking about his penis, methinks
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
man
he sucks
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
Lol are you serious?
Trolled.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Seriously, what an ass.
This is why I have never followed him.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
i thought you were joking, but he actually tweeted that.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
" . . . makin too many problems. and not many tweets to go 'round."
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i generally somewhat defend strauss but he's getting out of hand
i think you just accept he is a pure troll on twitter then its easier to follow him without it pissing you off. but lately its like he stepped it up a notch to where its becoming unbearable.
I'm going to leave this here
http://aeryssports.com/aaron-miles-fastball/thats-just-not-good-enough-for-joe-strauss/
I see Rally Squirrels everywhere I go.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jan 31, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
From Stark's latest:
The All-Unemployed Team
When it’s the last week of January and you’re still minus an employer to call your own, there’s only one thing we can think of to make you feel better: We put you on our All-Unemployed Team. And here it is:
1B: Casey Kotchman; 2B: Aaron Miles; SS: Edgar Renteria; 3B: Miguel Tejada; C: Ivan Rodriguez
LF: Raul Ibanez; CF: Johnny Damon; RF: Magglio Ordonez; DH: Vladimir Guerrero
Rotation: Roy Oswalt, Edwin Jackson, Rich Harden, Tim Wakefield, Brad Penny
Bullpen: (in alphabetical order, at the request of David Aardsma): David Aardsma, Juan Cruz, Chad Durbin, Mike Gonzalez, Jason Isringhausen, Arthur Rhodes
Bench: Hideki Matsui, Derrek Lee, Alex Cora, Jason Varitek
Future Newark Bears: Manny Ramirez, Livan Hernandez, Scott Kazmir
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 2:58 PM EST reply actions
johnny damon plays "center field" nowadays? i suppose he could stand there and retrieve the balls after they roll to the wall.
sadly, that rotation is better than a lot of teams’ rotations.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I think it's a limited FA CFers thing.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Rick Ankiel was no great CF either.
That arm though, oh that arm.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
damon was a terrible centerfielder in 2006, when he last played fulltime there. now he's a DH.
ankiel is not a great centerfielder, but he’s still a plausible option. he played more innings in center last season than damon has from 2007 onwards.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I want Ank and Damon to stand in a big empty field and allow Damon 3 throws for every 1 Ank long toss over a half mile.
I bet it would be close.
by openside on Jan 31, 2012 5:14 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yea, I agree he's probably still better defensively
But maybe Stark thinks that Damon’s bat is enough of an upgrade over Ankiel’s that the defensive difference isn’t wide enough. That’s just my assumption. I assume there’s some sort of name recognition factor or something that made him count Damon as a CF over other options.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
That could be.
I think it’s more likely Stark gravitates toward the more big-name players when creating the “All-Unemployed Team” list—even if the players aren’t that good these days.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
New business plan
Ankiel could barnstorm across the Great Plains, showing the speed and distance at which he can throw baseball shaped items.
I’d pay my two pence for that freak show.
#givelancechants
Those positional player are pretty much all horrible
What happened to Scott Kazmir? He just fell apart
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
he lost all his velocity, probably through some shoulder injury or deterioration.
he sat comfortably at 92 mph, then his velocity dropped to 91, 90, then 86 in the space of 3 seasons.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
This just makes me mad we have JC Romero instead of Arthur Rhodes.
I know Rhodes is ancient and was awful last year, but I’d rather take my chances with Rhodes than Romero. Rhodes was worth 0.9 WAR as recently as 2010. JC Romero has been worth 0.9 WAR cumulatively over the last 8 seasons. It drops to 0.7 WAR if you include 2003.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think Rhodes is likely done.
It’s important to keep in mind why he was awful last season after being so effective in 2010. It’s one of the reasons I wasn’t wild about the Cardinals acquiring him last season. In 2010, his average fastball velocity was 91.1 MPH. In 2011, his average fastball velocity was 88.8 MPH. That’s a large drop in velocity and the reason I suspect he won’t pitch in the big leagues again.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Ah, didn't realize it had dropped so much. I thought it was an unexplained fluctuation.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
(the performance fluctuation -- not the velocity)
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
i don't like romero much, but i don't think the answer is rhodes.
last year, the brewers didn’t have a single lefthander in their bullpen, and their bullpen was better than ours.
there are two kinds of lefties who are helpful to have in your bullpen: lefties who are just good pitchers (sean marshall, rzepczynski, etc.), and those who have exceptionally good splits (george sherrill). putting a mediocre lefty past his sell-by date in your bullpen just for the sake of having a lefty is bad practice.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Yea, I'd be fine with just Rzep as well.
There are plenty of deserving RH relievers in the system that are at least non-awful against lefties.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
If Mike Gonzalez is available for a cheap, one-year deal,
I’m going to complain about J.C. Romero and Kyle McClellan being in our bullpen some more.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He had corrective surgery, I believe.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I like Mike too.
If he’s available on such a deal, I don’t think I want to know about. As great as the offseason has been overall, the K-Mc and Schumaker are maddening.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Kyle McClellan apparently being one of them
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Livan Hernandez is no longer on the unemployed team
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/sports/pro/baseball&id=8526466
Astros sign him to a minor league deal
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
I'm glad Amaro is not the Cardinals GM.
From a FOX Sports post by Ken Rosenthal, Amaro on the Papelbon signing:
"We wanted one of two guys. One was Madson. The other was Papelbon," Amaro said. "As we rated the guys, no disrespect to Ryan, we just rated (Papelbon) above him.
"Probably the one thing that made me a little uncomfortable was the length. We probably wanted to stay at three years, but we felt that in order to get the right guy, we decided to go to four years. But as far as AAV ($12.5 million), I was comfortable with that based on where we thought the market was.
"We didn’t just want any closer. The way our team is set up, we wanted the best guy, or one of the top two or three guys. We could have gotten a ‘B’ or ‘B-plus’ closer. But we wanted an ‘A.’ With (Papelbon), as good and as durable as he has been, I felt he was the right fit for us."
Amaro comparing Ryan Howard’s situation to Cole Hamels’s situation:
"The difference between Ryan’s and Cole’s situation is that we’re talking about a guy (Howard) who is very, very difficult to match up what he did in successive years and equate that with what Cole has done," Amaro said.
"He was probably the most productive player during that span of anybody, including Pujols. This is not a slight against Cole — he has had some phenomenal years. But he is not the most decorated player in baseball."
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
That... just makes my head hurt.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
As a non-Phillies fan,
that just warms my heart.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 31, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
if you're a phillies fan, the question is how much of this bullshit does amaro actually believe?
i’m afraid the answer is a lot.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I ran into an Eagles fan on a football blog named, I shit you not, RyanHowardisbetterthanPujols
After asking him to please tell me that screename was a joke (to which he didn’t respond an suddenly stopped commenting on anything) I started wondering if he was, in fact, Amaro himself
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 4:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This has to be PR spin - he couldn't possibly think this is true
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 31, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
5/125
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
The worst part, in my opinion, is that, assuming he thinks it is true,
he saw fit to give Howard the highest AAV in baseball (other than A-Rod) two years before he had to do so.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah, he's just supporting his player publicly
and still trying to convince (dumb) people that he’s not an idiot for offering that contract.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
but he's shown no sign of learning from the lesson (e.g., papelbon).
which makes me question what he thinks about big money contracts.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I could be wrong, but I think Amaro has only given $100+MM contracts
to players over 30. In fact, every contract he has given over $30MM may be to players 30 or over…
Howard will be 32 in the first season of his five-year, $125MM deal.
Papelbon will be 31 in the first season of his four-year, $50MM deal.
Cliff Lee was 32 in the first season of his five-year, $120MM deal.
Roy Halladay was 34 in the first season of his three-year, $60MM deal.
Jimmy Rollins will be 33 in the first season of his three-year, $33MM deal.
Ibanez was 37 in the first season of his three-year, $31.5MM deal.
A smaller deal, but Polanco was 34 in the first season of his three-year, $18MM deal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
that is SO 43 seconds ago.
#killme
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Just got back from a meeting
Did you guys release schu, trade k-mac, and sign Roy yet?
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
That's what you were supposed to get done in your meeting.
Did you screw it up?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
We only discussed releasing Holliday
The dude’s head is too big, was terrible in the postseason, is injury prone, and just generally sucks. I thought we all agreed on that, no?
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Jan 31, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Ruben Amaro says he is totally over-rated
But he wants to help us out by trading us Wigginton and Nix for him.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
That Ruben
What a guy!
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Jan 31, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think you accidentally stumbled into a PD boards meeting.
Were the people there decidedly unwashed? Was “heart” or “grit” used as a valid player evaluation metric? Was there a curious lack of monocles?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently, the BoSux offered EJax a 1-year deal
between $5-6 M. What an insult! Just for that, I think he should sign with us for $6.5 M.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 3:48 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, maybe we
dodged a bullet there. If Ejax would have known how tough the market would be, maybe he would have accepted the arby offer.
Then again, having him for one year at an arbitration price wouldn’t be an awful thing either.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Is this considered a 'loss' for boras?
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Jan 31, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Not until he actually signs somewhere on a deal like that.
I was starting to think Prince wasn’t getting much of a deal either. Then along came the Tigers…
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
It's a "loss" like Lohse in '08 was a "loss."
As we all know, Lohse’s ‘08 contract turned into Lohse’s ‘09-’12 contract, which was a “win” for Boras.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
valid points
I dislike boras winning
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Jan 31, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Lohse's fWAR total in 2008 was 3.1.
Here are Edwin Jackson’s fWAR totals for the last three seasons:
3.6
3.8
3.8
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
so you're saying
SIGN EDWIN JACKSON!?
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
If Edwin Jackson is willing sign a 1-year, $7.5MM contract with St. Louis,
then I’d say “good luck” to Roy Oswalt in Texas and sign Jackson.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yes, if boston is offering $5-6m for one year, i'd forgo the draft pick and offer him $7m.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Actually...
wouldn’t we get a better pick? Teams are still losing their first round picks if they sign a FA who was offered arb, right?
Sign Roy O
i suppose we could COPE with only 5 picks in the top 100 this year.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I agree completely
the way this sitatuation has developed strikes me as completely ridiculous. Yet it would be unfortunate if the Cardinals fail to take advantage of it
Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5
I'm not saying that edwin Jackson isn't better than Lohse
I’m saying if lohse didn’t put up 3.1 fWAR in 08 (only the second time he has a WAR over 3 in his career), then the cardinals wouldn’t have signed him to a four year deal and it would be considered a lost.
I don’t think we should consider lohse singing to a one year deal in 08 a win for Boras. Starting pitchers making their big free agent market splash and only signing for one year is a loss. No matter what happens the following year.
Judge the process, that the result.
Grit != flat out sucking.
and by loss
I mean, it’s a loss from the agent’s perspective. Win for the club signing him.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I think his struggles down the stretch with the Cards hurt him
Although he wasn’t that bad. Mabye this is just a fluke, contracts have been ridiculous across the board.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn't the 2013 free agent market have way better pitchers in it?
Joe Blanton (32)
Matt Cain (28)
Aaron Cook (34)
Jorge De La Rosa (32) – $11MM player option with a $1MM buyout
Ryan Dempster (36)
Scott Feldman (29) – $9.25MM club option with a $600K buyout
Gavin Floyd (30) – $9.5MM club option
Zack Greinke (28)
Cole Hamels (29)
Dan Haren (32) – $15.5MM club option with a $3.5MM buyout
Tim Hudson (37) – $9MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Hiroki Kuroda (38)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Rodrigo Lopez (37)
Derek Lowe (40)
Paul Maholm (31) – $6.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Daisuke Matsuzaka (32)
Kevin Millwood (38)
Jake Peavy (31) – $22MM club option with a $4MM buyout
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Jonathan Sanchez (30)
Ervin Santana (30) – $13MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Joe Saunders (32)
James Shields (31) – $9MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Chien-Ming Wang (33)
Jake Westbrook (35) – $8.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout if club declines
Randy Wolf (36) – $10MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
That lists looks awfully stacked. I would not want to be in that market as a FA pitcher
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Greinke, Hamels & Cain
I’m sure E-Jax would much rather have a 2-year deal rather than have to deal with this bunch next year. I’b be down with signing him to 2 years for 10-12MM.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 31, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Aren't Lohse and Westy gone after this year?
That’d leave us with 4 starters anyway…Miller might be ready, but Carp might retire…?
Carp is signed for next year
He was a 5 win pitcher this year.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Is it me...
or is there not much here beyond the big three (once all options are picked up)?
Sign Roy O
It's not just you, but that would still make EJax like 4th in line.
You don’t want to be the 4th in line guy.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I was thinking 4th in line...
but he was arguably the fourth in line this year (Darvish, Buehrle, and Wilson).
Sign Roy O
True. I guess they can hope 1 or 2 of next year's guys sign extensions early.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
the top 3 next year
are quite clearly better than the top 3 this year. Being “best of the rest” may be more valuable next year.
Because Matheny
Depends
Jorge De La Rosa is a player option. Ryan Dempster has been a 3 win starter the last few years. Francisco Liriano could be anywhere from a 6 win to a 1 win player. Jake Peavy will not get his option. Just seems like it has a lot of 3 win pitchers in it. Exactly EJax’s market. We can probably get one on the cheap next year
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
Who do you consider to be the big 3 on this list?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
greinke, hamels, cain, and marcum (who should be on the list as well) are all big money guys.
marcum needs to show his arm issues late last season were just fatigue and not something much worse.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
But what about Haren and Hudson?
they’re not exactly chopped liver.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
Assuming their options will be picked up.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Who the crap posts on the VEB Facebook page and not here?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I don't know.
I’m not on Facebook.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
(rui just posted on the VEB facebook page)
also, who the hell isn’t on facebook. do you live in the 20th century, man?
M-I-Z-D-G-B
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 31, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
With the help of time-traveling Juan Encarnacion,
I am on Twitter and write for a blog about baseball while not being on Facebook.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
seriously fang is the oldest college student i've ever seen
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm ON Facebook, but I don't USE Facebook
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 6:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm on facebook
I think I may have even ‘liked’ VEB over there, but I never bother looking at that page.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 31, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
There's a VEB Facebook page?
That seems….redundant
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 6:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
BAhahhahaha
LOHO readers have suggested that Hendry was sent to the Yankees as compensation to the Red Sox for the Theo hiring.
— Julie DiCaro (@JulieDiCaro) January 31, 2012
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 5:06 PM EST reply actions 9 recs
Every once in a while the insuring of baseball player contracts is brought up here.
It seems that the Tigers’ insurance policy will cover about half of Victor Martinez’s 2012 salary.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Thanks. Man I'd love to know
what that insurance costs.
If Edwin Jackson is seriously going to sign a one year deal and his rumored offers are for 5-6 million..
We should be doing this right? Oswalt apparently wants 10, if you can get Jackson for 7 or 8 just do that.
And if I am Jackson taking a one year deal in hopes of cashing in next year, STL is a pretty favorable place to pitch while Boston is AL East and Fenway…
No, because we get a draft pick if/when EJax signs elsewhere.
The pick is worth more than the difference between the Oswalt and Jackson would-be contracts.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
If Jackson is truly available on a 1-year, $7.5MM contract, I'd sign him this instant.
That being said, I believe there were reports that Baltimore offered him a 3-year deal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
latest i saw was this
@danconnollysun
Dan Connolly
Accdg to source, Edwin Jackson much more likely to sign 1yr deal than multiyr & clubs r being told that. Not good news for #Orioles
4 hours ago via web F
What round pick do we get again? I don't recall but I'm pretty sure the avg. value of such a pick is likely worth well over the value of having Jackson on such a deal.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
it's a supplemental pick. iirc, they're worth about $2.5m, which is one standard mcclellan unit.
also, the difference between $7.5m for jackson and $10m for oswalt.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Ah, for some reason I thought it was much larger.
I guess it’s more of a tossup than I though.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
I'd still rather get Roy for 1/10
Draft pick + Roy is a far more enjoyable pitcher to watch.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
He'd have to be offered ~12.5M or so by the Cards first.
The new CBA changes how draft pick comp is awarded.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
With the exception of Heyman, Sports Illustrated has such great baseball writers
This article is awesome:
http://www.si.com/news/sp/wr_mlb_sports/detail/4691050
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 6:45 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Ok, if you go to SI it's the kings of basebal article that was recently posted
I have no other way to link it except the mobile site
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 7:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, thank you
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 8:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Heyman writes for CBS now.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Oh noes!!
I went to the VEB Facebook page. Mistake!! I now know what azru, scoot, aranathor, and mysterui look like. I’ve seen mysterui’s senior pictures for Christ’s sake! The veil has been lifted!
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 6:49 PM EST via mobile reply actions
it's like the Ark of the Covenant. whatever you do, don't look!
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Sorry to disappoint.
If it’s any consolation, I’m disappointed every morning as well.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
azru looks nothing like his avatar.
for one, he has this goatee.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Nah, in real life Azru looks more like this
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Rui's senior pictures are AMAZING.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 31, 2012 8:15 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
The ones with the tennis racket are my faves
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 9:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
It's a flaming tennis ball!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I just went on mobile Facebook and "like"d it and I can't even see anything but the name
How do I join it, etc?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 8:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just because it hasn't been mentioned
If it comes down to who can trade their swingman fastest, I have to think the Rangers have the advantage
They actually already tried to trade him, but he invoked his no-trade clause, so maybe not.
i think this gets done either way
oswalt will give the cardinals a chance to counter any offer he gets
Yes, but he has a home in Baltimore, so...
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently, Jim Bowden posted a piece with trades he thinks should be made.
One was Shelby, Cox, jay for Adam Jones
Lol wat?
This blog agrees with me:
http://mobile.mlbdailydish.com/2012/1/31/2761616/responding-to-bowdens-trade-ideas
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 7:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
This is why Jim Bowden is not a GM any longer.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Dude should not be allowed to watch baseball ever again
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 7:19 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Their worths
Jay 4.2 fWAR, 826 PAs = .508 fWAR/100PA
Jones 9.2 fWAR, 2419 PAs = .380 fWAR/100PA
You might actually be on to something!
No seriously
They were worth the same last season
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 7:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It is not even that
Jay makes league min and is under control for 4/5 more years. Adam Jones is in last year of arbitration and will make $5/6 million
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure this should be obvious
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 7:27 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Manny machado
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 7:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What the hell?
Shelby is a top prospect in all of baseball….Jay + Cox would at least be reasonable
by mick311 on Jan 31, 2012 7:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't even think so
Adam Jones is all hype and no deliver.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
didnt he get hurt one yr on his wrist
shortly after that trade? not sure if remembering right
Rzepczynski tough name to say, tough sinker to hit-Lance Berkman
I was in no way saying cox and jay for jones
Would be a good or wise move….i was just trying to say it wouldn’t have,made him look like such a fucking idiot had he left Shelby off that proposed deal.
by mick311 on Jan 31, 2012 8:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not really
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 7:47 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Jon Jay and Adam Jones are about as valuable on the field as one another. They just derive their value in different ways.
Since they are roughly equal on the field, we can turn to their contract situations. As Flim points out above, Jones is about to hit free agency while Jay still has several years of club control left. This makes Jay a more valuable player overall. Therefore, the Orioles should be giving us Jones and another prospect for Jay.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You just blew Jim Bowden's mind
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 8:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This id mainly what i was referring to
Plus hes young
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 8:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Damn, MLB Draft Guide was hacked
They lost off their content…hundreds of draft profiles, mock drafts, video, interviews…that sucks
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 31, 2012 8:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
illini basketball is painful to watch.
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 31, 2012 8:21 PM EST reply actions
THE BEATLES DO NOT SUCK TAKE IT BACK
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Yeah, people say some pretty outrageous things when they're upset
but c’mon
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 31, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yawn
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 8:42 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
yeah, ok rui
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
But I disagree about that other thing.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
by a fink on Jan 31, 2012 8:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
BERNOULLI'S PRINCIPLE IS OVER-RATED
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
not according to mrs bernoulli
TLR is gone, long live the king
by sportsman on Jan 31, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Who will be our highest WAR player in 2012?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Lego
by a big margin
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 31, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know how to figure up WAR
because I don’t have fielding or baserunning predictions…I’ll go wOBA however:
I’ve got Berkman at .404 (however, mine’s the quick and dirty way of figuring it, apparently) so how about Berkman’s wOBA is .015 ahead of Holliday for first on the team.
Holliday slightly over the killer Bs
Juat like last year in WAR/game except he hopefully stays healthier
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 8:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i'll say wainwright , just to be different.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
just got here ... any interesting news re: roy or anyting else? we shoppilng KMac as PD bernie suggests?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
yes. everything is working to plan!
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
OMG mobile VEB is working better than regular VEB for once!
Vengeance for the no subject line day!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 8:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
not really
tom s. deleted a post and this is what happens when people try to reply to a deleted post
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Dream crusher
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 9:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
to be clear, i merely encourage azru to delete his own post.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
so you're telling me that up there is a secret thread?
or that secret threads cause this mayhem now?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
No.
The thread is dead. Hence the parentless comments that appear as “reply fails”. A hidden thread maintains its continuity.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Deleted comments create orphans, and hidden comments create hidden subthreads?
Still not a werewolf.
Their ain't no orphan like a comment orphan
because a comment orphan can’t turn out to really be a velociraptor in disguise.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Feb 1, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
heh
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 31, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
same here
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
i keek getting pop ups to stop a script that is running ... happening to you guys?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 31, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
would this work better if someone starts a new thread?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
Have you tried turning it off and on again?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 31, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
maybe try some role playing?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
yeah...
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 31, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Well, according to the article, a guy named Mr. Bacon is running things for McDonalds
So, everything is going to be okay
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 31, 2012 9:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
1. Why would you be eating at McDonald's?
2. It’s probably not that big of a deal.
3. It looks like strawberry ice-cream!*
4. That first paragraph is really quite poor logic. Has the author not read about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide?
*Don’t eat strawberry ice-cream while looking at the photo in Tom S’s link.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think I was just reacting negatively to the notion
That mcdonalds has been using dog food grade meat in their burgers. I’m not sure that’s unhealthy (or rather any less healthy than I thought it was), but it’s surely unappetizing.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Feb 1, 2012 2:01 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Shed a tear of joy watching the world series dvd
There will never be another team like that
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 11:00 PM EST via Android app reply actions
every time i watch a game from the series
i feel the same way
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Man
So jealous of whoever got to attend gm6
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 11:31 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I had the choice between buying a ticket for game 2 or game 6
I’d never been to a playoff game before, so I chose game 2 to be sure I saw one in person. Fail! Oh well, at least I can say I saw my team play in a world series game…there are generations of Cub fans that can’t say that.
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 31, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Oh well
Jealous of anyone that attended any of thise games! I still cant beieve how good freese and craig were… Record setting 21 rbis for freeser. Wow.
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2012 11:50 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Fifty total bases!
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 12:01 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Fifty First Bases.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 1, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
No comprende
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 12:31 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
It's like Fifty First Dates
but with more baseball.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 1, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
ah
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
the bases
they were 50 in number
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
I was there
and until that night I had never been so happy that I cried but it definitely happened after Berkman’s single. Every now and then I think about it and it’s hard to believe it actually happened.
by CentralILcardsfan on Feb 1, 2012 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
I only missed WS game 2 and 7 out of all the playoff games at home
I’ll never see anything like game 6 was again.
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Feb 1, 2012 2:15 AM EST up reply actions
Pink Floyd - Remember a Day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmSjEu57Lxs
I love Syd Barret’s slide playing on this, especially after the breakdown in the middle.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
i'm not sure i understand how linked in works
so, like i find someone that i work with on there and i’m like okay, i will just add this person as a friend or whatever. but then there’s no way to do that? i to send them a message, i have to pay? why would people use this?
oh, there's the button, nevermind
but it’s probably still stupid
by prophetjohn on Jan 31, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
lol nice job covering your tracks.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 31, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
The first truck is rolling to Spring Training!
BaaaaaaaaaaaaaaseBaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllll
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Feb 1, 2012 12:33 AM EST reply actions
rollin, rollin, rollin, keep them Cards a rollin...
by Tuning in from Korea on Feb 1, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Mariners, actually.
I’ll take what I can get at this point.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Feb 1, 2012 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
It'll be cool to see what Jesus Montero can do.
More than Justin Smoak I hope.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Feb 1, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
fantastic!
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2012 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
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