St. Louis Cardinals: Which Came First, the Good Chemistry or the Winning?
by bgh on Jan 24, 2012 4:01 PM EST
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In a recent article posted on stltoday.com, Post-Dispatch writer Joe Strauss addressed the St. Louis Cardinals' intangibles entering the 2012 season against the backdrop of the 2011 and 2010 teams. Employing the verbage of "vibe," "chemistry," and "mix" to describe this indefinable quality so often found in winning teams by the sportswriters who cover them, Strauss offers a lengthy analysis with many quotes from players as well as general manager John Mozeliak. Strauss's thoroughness makes the article well worth reading as it contains many interesting and thought-provoking statements.
The article revisits a theme of the 2010 season and its aftermath regarding that incarnation of the Cardinals, that the group lacked that much-desired team trait of chemistry. As the club battled the Reds that summer, Mozeliak famously stated that he was looking for "a straw to stir the drink" that would transform the Cardinals into a tasty cocktail of success. If Pedro Feliz was that straw, his clubhouse cocktail mixing would seem to be about on par with his hitting. As Strauss notes in the article, that Cardinals team was in first place at the non-waiver trade deadline but finished the season 5.0 games back of the division champion Reds.
Strauss reports that the Hot Stove moves of post-2010 offseason were motivated not only by talent but also by straw-mixability:
Mozeliak last winter imported Berkman, Ryan Theriot, Nick Punto and Gerald Laird, among others, to help the team contend but also to decompress what many, including the general manager, believed had become a tight clubhouse that one veteran confided "walked on egg shells."
The arc of the article's narrative is from walking-on-egg-shells underachiever in 2010 to chemistry-based World Series champions in 2011 to a chemistry question mark for 2012. While it is unclear whether the chemistry was good in 2011 before or during the sweep in late August to the visiting Dodgers, the article details a closed-door clubhouse meeting that, as the story goes, flipped the good chemistry switch.
A rare players-only meeting that followed the Cardinals' unsightly three-game home sweep by the Los Angeles Dodgers coincided with the surge. Chris Carpenter led the meeting, but several players offered input. Team members who had performed shabbily began to play for each other as well as themselves.
As we all know, a wonderful, fantastic, magical fairy tale followed. Combined with a historic collapse by the Braves, the Cardinals' 23-9 record in the season's final 32 games helped close a 10.5-game deficit in the Wild Card and clinch a postseason berth (only after a Braves' loss in Game No. 162).
Strauss's attempts to differentiate the clubhouse makeup is where his narrative begins to wobble under the strain of a tenuous causal stretch. The reporter lists those players considered to be "clubhouse pillars" as the following: Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Yadier Molina, Matt Holliday, Skip Schumaker, and Lance Berkman. All but one of these clubhouse pillars was on the 2010 club. After listing the pillars, Strauss's story begins to crumble as he transitions to the role players brought in for the 2011 sseason.
However, Theriot represented part of the clubhouse glue even when removed as starting shortstop. Rather than grouse, he accepted a smaller role that moved him to second.
This is, of course, a statement that completely ignores an article with Strauss's own byline from the 2011 season that turned even the most steadfast Theriot apologists against the former shortstop. The article was an airing of grievances by Theriot worthy of a Festivus gathering which concluded with the now infamous closing passage that gave rise to the #TheriotLogic Twitter hashtag:
The Cardinals led the division until July 27, four days before the Furcal acquisition. Speaking only about his own role, Theriot noted, "When I was playing shortstop we were in first place. I know that. It is what it is."
After praising Theriot's selflessness in spite of his own prior reporting, Strauss shifts to praising Gerald Laird as "a teaser and fantasy football enthusiast." There will forever be a place in my heart for Leaping Laird but that does not mean that I'll forget what Hall-of-Fame Post-Dispatch scribe Rick Hummel described as "an animated argument" between Laird and Molina at the team hotel during a road series against the Marlins. (The incident was described as a fight on Twitter.) The paragraph concludes with praise of Nick "The Shredder" Punto as a clubhouse guy, a seemingly unassailbable assertion despite the many shirts and jerseys that the infielder has shredded.
Despite Strauss's attempt to tie it in with his "good chemistry" theme, the up-and-down nature of the Cardinals' season futher strains the narrative constructed in this article. After stumbling out of the blocks and a Berkman pep talk, the Cardinals surged and at one point were owners of the best record in baseball. But the team then foundered through the summer and were left in the Brewers' dust as Milwaukee zoomed to the division crown. Was the chemistry good in April and May but bad in June and July? If so, why? Was the chemistry good in late July when the Cardinals were in first place but bad two weeks later when the Brewers had a comfortable division lead? All of this is unanswerable.
Having played and coached baseball, I believe in the notion of team chemistry. The being said, I still don't entirely know which comes first, the chemistry or the winning. To put it another way, do teams win more games because of good chemistry or does winning more games lead to better chemistry? Like the chicken or the egg, we may never know.
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Well, is Fielder worth $23m/year?
Guess the Tigers might find out.
That just seems kind of greedy with already having Miguel Cabrera
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well, plus now they have 3 first basement/DHs
when Martinez gets back.
lucky for prince scott
no martinez injury, no 214M
if wash. was going that far, it would have been done already
i hate it when bouros lucks out like that
TLR is gone, long live the king
Figure Scott hired Tanya Harding to fix Martinez' knee cap. . .
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
Funny coincidence
It’s funny how a team can have good chemistry when it leads the NL in run differential.
#givelancechants
good chem is good leadership
is guys playing their best and the manager not trotting out his favorite cows time after time while everyone else watches them perform in a sub-par manner
need realistic optimists
TLR is gone, long live the king
Yeah - think of how the late Boog was local color when hitting about 275 and a disruption at 215.
Good job, bgh, of point out the inconsistencies with Strauss.
Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken
When good chemistry leads to winning
Just might mean you are Ryan Braun
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM EST reply actions 13 recs
Wait, I get it
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 24, 2012 4:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
wow
that took me longer to get than I care to admit
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jan 24, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
does it also lead to...
the herpes that Braun allegedly has acquired?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Jan 24, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah this is pretty much the pujols contract
so fucking dumb.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I would rather have the Pujols contract
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
yeah that's what i mean
this is basically the same contract in terms of money, and fielder is not nearly as good as pujols.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Going into the offseason,
I thought the Fielder contract would be better for the club that signs it because of his comparatively younger age and Pujols’s likely higher salary. The two contracts has me wondering how they compare with their respective age-related declines.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Not sure either
But I strongly suspect that the latter years of Fielder will not be nearly as terrible as the latter years of Pujols
I think they will be about equal actually
Pujols is a top 10 hitter of all time. Fielder is maybe top 200. Feilder also is likely to age much worse than Pujols.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
This is what I am thinking
with less upside for Fielder. I think Pujols’ concern will be injury-related, while Fielder’s will be an age-related decline concern.
I realize that those can be very inter-related, especially during the years of Pujols’ contract.
by RasmustheRipper on Jan 24, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
fielder is falling from a much lower plateau. if the whole "drop half a win a year" rubric is valid, you'd
rather have a 32-year-old worth 7-8 wins a year than a 28-year-old worth 5 wins.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
i think you mean
not NEARLY.
(although, well, maybe i wouldn’t be too shocked if fielder outperforms pujols over the next five years. and not at all surprised if he outperforms him over the next nine. but still, too much damn money and pujols is a better player.)
Only point to the contrary
Pujols’ contract will pay him through his age 41 season – just the baseball part of it.
Fielder’s contract will pay him through his age 36 season.
This isn't a salary cap league.
If the Tigers want to raise payroll to sign players that make them better, it’s not really dumb.
It’s only dumb if it’s in comparison to some other realistic alternative to make the team better – i.e., signing another player(s), the owner keeping the excess money, etc. Can’t really spend it in the draft, or on the IFA market (excepting somebody like Cespedes, who is no sure thing), so what are you going to do with the money other than keep it, spend it on Fielder, or spend it on other FAs?
If I had $200MM burning a hole in my pocket, maybe I would have spent it on Jose Reyes and Yu Darvish, but I don’t know that it’s stupid to sign one of the best FA players, if you’ve got the money.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 24, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Fielder is not even close to worth 214 million over the next 9 years
he’s like 4.5 WAR player next year. They could have easily signed other free agents and gotten more value.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Edwin Jackson, Carlos Pena, and Francisco Cordero...
not to mention that they should’ve planned a little better and gone for Reyes, Madson, Wilson ettc..
Sign Roy O
As dumb as it is to make this sort of investment based on this, I do think it's partially a reaction to Victor Martinez's knee injury.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
The first three guys were still on the market when news of his injury came out...
Replacing Martinez is actually quite easy – a DH with a 125 ops+is a 2.5 win player. Jackson alone is a 3 win upgrade over whoever their fifth starter is. Then
Sign Roy O
Absolutely
I live in Mich. Reports were the Tigers weren’t pursuing Prince until V.M injury.
CliffNotes: "My Dad wanted me to be a baseball player!"
Roy Hobbs: "The Natural"
I'm not sure about this year
But there will no doubt be other free agents in the next 9 years that would have gotten the Tigers more bang for their buck than Fielder.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
But every team cannot optimize the FA market at the same time.
“So fucking dumb” should not be used for overpays for good players, when it’s merely a question if the owner wants to release the funds and it doesn’t obviously keep the team from a specific, available, other option.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 24, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
well, one of the major downsides of huge, long contracts is that it is impossible to predict what the club will
need and what the availability of talent will be in 2015, say, but the club is tying 2015-GM’s hands anyway.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
that was my thought, who knows who / what will develop in the next 3-5 years and this big dollar long term contract
may keep them from acquiring or keeping something much better in mid-term future
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that is an obvious point.
But what else would they have spent 23mm on right now to improve their team by 5 WAR for next year?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 24, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Well they could have signed Oswalt and Jackson
Or Derrek Lee.
Either way, next year isn’t the problem. 23 million isn’t an overpay for the 4-5 WAR Fielder will give them. But it will be a big overpay in a few years, which will prevent them from signing FA.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Prince just isn't the kind of player I would ever contemplate giving a Pujols/A-Rod-esque contract to
He has not been a 6-8 WAR juggernaut consistently. His best year by fWAR was 2009, at 6.4. That was his second highest homer total, his highest wOBA, his highest BABIP, and his only positive UZR score for a full season. Anybody think he’s gonna put up numbers like that year after year? He may be significantly younger than Pujols, but his defense is already bad and his hitting seems to bounce back and forth between elite and merely really good. For a bad glove 1B that is not a good sign given the 200+ million dollar contract and 9 freaking year commitment.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
absolutely. and I don't think there's any issue
With expanding the budget for a season to sign somebody for a year.
but when you’re signing an extremely long contract, there’s nothing sensible about an overpay. Just because the point is obvious doesn’t mean it’s not correct.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 25, 2012 12:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
My main point is that there is no real constraint
on the Tigers other than “what Mike Ilitch wants to spend.”. The man is worth $2B after all, and doesn’t appear to care much about running a deficit. MLB isn’t the NBA of NFL, where no matter how rich you are, you are constrained to make talent tradeoffs.
Talking about whether Prince is likely to be worth his contract according to an expected WAR/$ misses much of the story here, as we don’t even know whether Ilitch would have released these funds for any other player or players.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 25, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
the hypocrisy of this and your stance against oswalt is amazing
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think you know what hypocrisy means and the situations aren't even similar.
And in any event, I’m in favor of signing Oswalt.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 25, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
You said that there was no way the Cards would raise payroll 10 million dollars for one year
Yet here you’re arguing that the Fielder signing is ok because the Tigers could just raise payroll by 20 million for the next 9 years. Those two positions don’t reconcile at all.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Holy non sequitur!
When the Cards start running their business like Mike Ilitch runs the Tigers, then there will be some connection between your two points (and it still wouldn’t be a good connection).
The Oswalt situation is not a good analogy because the problem is much more than just finding the money, it’s how to fit Oswalt on the team given a full rotation and NTC’s for the two worst rotation members. And your use of hypocrisy was simply wrong – again, I’m in favor of the Cards signing Oswalt, I just think there’s little chance of it happening given a 10MM asking price and the presence of Westbrook.
Last, I didn’t say the Fielder signing was “OK” – I said your characterization of it as “fucking dumb” needed re-thinking because you likely weren’t appreciating other factors beyond simplistic WAR/$ calculations.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 25, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
How have the Tigers run their business so differently than the Cardinals?
Their payroll has been consistently about 30 million higher (except for last year when the Cards were higher). I don’t see why its more likely that the Tigers would raise payroll than the Cardinals would. And you have no evidence to support that.
For the last fucking Westbrook does not complicate matters in the slightest. He’s a mediocre pitcher in his mid 30’s coming off of a miserable year. Stop making this ridiculous argument.
So, again, despite no inside information, you think it’s more likely that the Tigers will raise payroll by 20 million for the next nine years to compensate Fielder than the Cardinals will raise payroll by 10 million for one year to compensate Oswalt. Ridiculous.
The Fielder signing is fucking dumb. This is one of the worst contracts in baseball history from a dollar per WAR standpoint. It’s ok for 2012, its fucking awful for the next 8 years. The reason we use dollar per WAR is that is the going rate for free agents. That is, how much it would cost to buy a given amount of wins in free agency. The average is about 4.5 million, the Tigers are paying about 8 million for WAR for Fielder.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
What are talking about?
The Tigers do have a salary limit. Signing Fielder means they have less money for free agency in subsequent years. Since Fielder is not likely to be worth his contract even in 3-4 years, they are losing wins because of this signing.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
I dont care
at least he is not a sCrUB
by Macarver hater on Jan 25, 2012 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Which came first - the chicken or the egg?
As they say in the San Fernando Valley, it was probably the rooster.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 24, 2012 4:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The likelihood is that it has nothing to do with "team chemistry" or "the mix of players".
I think, like most things in life, it is about luck. With maybe some Braves’ feelings of desperation thrown in. Think about all the things that had to go right for the Cardinals to a) make it to the playoffs, b) beat Philly in that classic game 5, and c) to come back not once, but twice, in Game 6, down to their last strike. If the Braves win just two more games, we don’t get to the playoffs. If they only win one more, and we lose more, ditto. Same with the fielding plays in the NLDS in game 5 that kept Philadelphia off the scoreboard (probably not luck there, just good fielding, but if the ball is hit an inch or two this way or that, do the results change? Who could ever know?) Could go on and on, but I think the point I’m trying to make is that, there is no point to this kind of article. Why even try to quantify it? It’s not statistics, it’s….intangibles; that is, it is unknowable why things happened the way they did. Just sit back, grab a beer, pop in the DVD of the World Series, and relive the ride, baby!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 24, 2012 4:19 PM EST reply actions
^"and we lose one more, ditto."
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 24, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I do that last sentence a lot
Its a good idea
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 24, 2012 4:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm the opposite
Luck seldom plays a part. The Cards hit just as many balls that were barely outs. We improved our “luck” and chemistry when the bullpen was revamped and key players came back from injuries.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 24, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
And we STILL played
way over our pythag expectancy for the year. There was luck involved. Or stastical variance, whichever you prefer to call it.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
I'll go with statistical variance every time.
I would define that further as flaws in the statistics, not luck, especially over 162 games.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 24, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
If you don't believe luck exists, even in 162 games
than I don’t know what to tell you.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
if the underlying statistics were were/are flawed then maybe they were supposed to win 90 games
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Potato-potato
Wow, that analogy really loses its effectiveness in the written word….
IMO, Kenny, it’s really two ways of saying the same thing.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Potehto, potahto
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
people say potehto? what the hell.
i’ve always heard it as potayto, potahto.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Sounds like a Minnesooota
way of saying it.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
I was thinking of Canada, but MInnesota works.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I really enjoy how the original crux of this subthread
devolved into phonetic writing of the word “potato”
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
"devolved" is not the correct word.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I believe in Team Chemistry
I just look back on my own experience how one cool laid back person can affect the entire office.
Wait til laidback marries the receptionist
and the show tanks.
by openside on Jan 24, 2012 4:24 PM EST via Android app up reply actions 2 recs
That storyline should've been aborted.
by openside on Jan 24, 2012 4:34 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
These sorts of jokes are offensive irregardless and are in clear violation of the no politics rule
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 24, 2012 4:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry. Didn't mean to offend.
I’d pull it down if I could.
by openside on Jan 24, 2012 4:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Oh it's ok
Just be careful with some words or subjects in the future
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 24, 2012 6:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, irregardless!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Ahh,
irregardlessly, it’s full of irregardlessment.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
-wick.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
by TBender on Jan 24, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is always the right answer
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 24, 2012 5:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
In my experience having a cool laid back person to talk to makes me want to work less.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Fielder
Well I guess we don’t have to be concerned about Fielder in the NL anymore! Albert now has the Tigers to deal with!
CliffNotes: "My Dad wanted me to be a baseball player!"
Roy Hobbs: "The Natural"
Honestly
We could spend all day debating whether an unmeasurable phenomenon like chemistry has a causal effect on a baseball team’s winning percentage without reaching any conclusion. But that won’t stop us.
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 24, 2012 4:27 PM EST reply actions
I would think Team Chemistry would have a bigger effect on losing
In that it makes get over any loss easier
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Well
I’ll stick with the theory that a sportswriter has an incentive to weave some story about chemistry in order to have a go-to story to write about multiple times a year, since saying “they were good/bad at baseball” has a lower word count.
Not afraid to nitpick
Yeah, I’m not sure why they let me hold it either BUT IT’S SO COOL!
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
actually I imagine Berk brought plenty of chemistry as well
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
What's great about looking at that picture
is that I don’t really know which ‘THIS GUY’ you’re talking about.
DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS?!!
by Vindicator9000 on Jan 24, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Holy shit the Astros got Mike Fast also
they are going to be good soon.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
farm system is still pretty bad
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
they'll have high draft picks though
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say 3-4 years if their owner is patient with the FO
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
That was the Rays timeline, I guess.
But everything broke exactly right for them, and I’m a long way from assuming Luhnow is in Friedman’s class.
Mike doesn't just "understand stats"
he’s probably the best public sabermetrician left. The stuff he’ll do with Pitch f/x and field and command f/x will give the Astros a big advantage in player evaluation.
A good front office can skyrocket a team. And the Astros actually have some payroll to work with.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
We've had this discussion before
I guarantee a lot of other teams have these types of guys because there’s a lot of money to go after the many people with the database/math skills to do it. Sig Mejdal is a perfect example that we’d have never heard of if he’d been with another team—-I hear there are a lot of NASA engineers out of work now.
Not afraid to nitpick
It takes more than database/math skills
you still have to know what questions to ask and how to interpret data. I guarantee that few front offices have the same quality of analytics that the Astros do now.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
You vastly overrate the difficulty this stuff is in the grand scheme of a math degree
Most of these guys were doing this stuff as a hobby (the Rays guys, everyone who has gotten hired in baseball without having written publicly). I mean the Yankees, Red Sox, Oakland, Arizona, Rays, Toronto, Cleveland, Oakland, Cubs, and Seattle are all well known to be throwing around money for these guys, it’s just not a new concept. Hell the Cardinals weren’t even known to be a big saber team and that’s where Lunhow and Megdal are coming from.
Not afraid to nitpick
Right, it's not as uncommon anymore
I still don’t think many teams have as much analytic talent as the Astros do now. And certainly very few teams have a GM who’s willing to utilize that.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
But Jokers' point is that just because you haven't heard of the guys that other teams are using
Doesn’t mean they aren’t just as good, if not better than the Astros’ guys. We just don’t, and can’t know. Just because someone hasn’t written publicly on analytics doesn’t mean they can’t be very very good at it.
No, but by the way other GM's operate
it’st not likely that they have a strong analytical staff.
Also, sabermetrics started off as an underground/internet movement. It was only accepted into baseball over the past 3 or 4 years. So most of the guys who are good sabermetricians were writing online or in books. There was no other outlet.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the internet sabermetrics kinda started off that way. You of course always had some guys working in the field, but there were few and weren’t very organized.
Modern sabermetrics essentially had its birth in usenet from 1994-2000. Usenet was essentially a place for us to swap analysis, flame Joe Carter and Rey Ordonez fans, torment WebTV/AOL users, and rag on media figures. During that time, Keith Law, Keith Woolner, Chris Kahrl, Sean Forman, Sean Lahman, Voros McCracken, John Sickels, Don Malcolm, Greg Spira, Dave Pease, Gary Huckabay, myself, and a whole bunch of others were all there on a daily basis. You even had appearances from people like Craig Wright and Mike Gimbel.
When Rob Neyer became popular, it kinda helped all our profiles considerably. A group of RSBBers started Baseball Prospectus and over time, we all started getting the attention of some media guys, like Dave Schoenfield. So when Moneyball came out and blogs enabled us to reach larger audiences, it helped us out quite a bit professionally. None of us started out as professional baseball analysts, after all.
As underground communities go, baseball usenet turned out to be pretty successful. Turned out you can get a job as a result of making fun of the guy who thinks Mookie Wilson’s a Hall of Famer (that actually happened).
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That's a nice bit of history, Dan, thanks.
Starting off in usenet (among the unwashed fans rather than the burgeoning analytics community) that brings back some memories as well.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Were you in the Cards NG? I might remember you!
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
If you remembered me from alt.sports.baseball.stl-cardinals
it probably wouldn’t be due to anything I’d be proud of now. (Learned and mellowed a lot since those heady days.)
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
We’ve all mellowed, too. I’m still in touch with Lance Freezeland, Eric Opperman, and Harold Brooks from the Cards NG.
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Wow, that's great. Those guys were the backbone of that group.
I went and poked through some old threads after you brought it up. Can’t believe I as there as late as 2006. Seems like an eternity now.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
Now I’m really curious! Lots of guys I remember still unaccounted for in the blog age, like Rob Haneberg!
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Heh. I wasn't a very active poster
and didn’t say much of interest when I did.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I honestly have no idea what you guys are even talking about
Crazy how the internet changes in 10 years
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
You might know it as "Google Groups"
alt.sports.baseball.stl-cardinals
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
heh, the search function works
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 25, 2012 6:38 AM EST up reply actions
Also, we've seen what happens when, for instance, economic guys try to get into sabermetrics
see JC Bradbury, Steven Levitt..
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah those guys aren't all that great
You’re looking for quant finance guys that would laugh if you called the stat problems baseball deals with “complex.”
Not afraid to nitpick
Of course the baseball stats stuff isn't complex
But it requires more than just coding and stats knowledge. You actually have to know about baseball and how numbers work in baseball – rules from other fields don’t apply. It may be a hobby, but it requires hundreds of hours reading to understand all the stuff. And the only people willing to put that much effort into it are guys who are going to publish online. So I don’t think there are any better sabermetricians than Mike Fast or Dan Fox lurking about.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
i don't think so
so like (you don’t me,) joker is talking about should be able to transition into baseball pretty easily
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
what?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
you don't know me joker
there, i will present the joke in advance as opposed to in the middle since it seems to be confusing
someone like joker is referring to (“quant finance guys that would laugh if you called the stat problems baseball deals with "complex.”") or really anyone with a developed capacity for statistical reasoning will not have a difficulty transitioning into statistical analysis in baseball. this shit isn’t that hard. yes there will be a learning curve for someone who has never heard of baseball. yes, a smart person with a developed capacity for statistical reasoning will overcome the learning curve fairly quickly
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
so what, teams poach guys out of quant finance and say
“we’ll play you 50 thousand a year to analyze baseball stats, but first you have to become an expert on sabermetrics?”
And also it takes a long time to learn all the concepts. It took me a couple of years of reading. And the stuff that analyst are doing is highly specialized. Who is going to know how to use Pitch f/x data unless they’ve spent a lot of time on it?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
yes
if they’re only paying $50K, they will have a hard time recruiting those kind of people.
no, i don’t think that every person is expected to be an expert in every field the first day they step on the job
no, i really doubt it’s going to take much more than 2 weeks for someone like to get a handle on what to do with pitch f/x data if they have someone they can ask questions of
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Well if there are already guys who are experts in the field
why wouldn’t teams hire them instead? There are still plenty of guys writing online who haven’t been hired yet, which leads me to think that baseball is not overflowing with underground analysts.
I disagree with you on the last point. Pitch f/x takes a lot of subject matter expertise, you have to understand the physics of it, you have to understand pitcher “theory”, you have to be able to understand the limits of the system.
Dan, how long did it take you before you were able to create your own projection system?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
I probably spent about 200 hours developing the original ZiPS. Over time, as computers have gotten better (ZiPS wouldn’t even fit on my hard drive from back then), I’ve been able to add more things.
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
so there are guys that haven't already been hired?
i don’t know how that’s supposed to help your argument
and i’m not claiming there are tons of sabermetricians out there. i’m claiming that there are tons of people out there with the capacity to be a sabermetrician with a short learning curve
and i know it’s tempting to place a premium on something that you’re good at but these are professional statisticians that i’m talking about. i’m pretty sure they can handle the physics of a curveball
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Because if teams were hiring sabermetricians in droves
those guys would be the first to go. You don’t need to be a professional statistician to be a good sabermetrician, you need to be a good sabermetrican. and that’s highly specialized (isn’t relevent to anything outside of baseball) and takes a long time.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
okay, yep you've said that
just saying it again doesn’t convince me
so i guess i’ll disagree again and further disagree sabermetrics isn’t relevant to anything outside baseball (in the way that professional statisticians aren’t already highly qualified). hell, half the people on this blog can handle it.
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, ok i disagree
few people on this blog understand sabermetrics well enough to be an expert, and no one understands it as well as guys like mike fast and josh kalk. Most of the training a statistics major would undergo would not apply to baseball because it’s a contained universe. there are no rules drawn from larger concepts in life, they are all drawn from the specific universe of baseball and they are not based off of complex regression analysis or principle component analysis or anything like that. so the huge majority of a staticians training would be pointless.
Since you guys like to pull the experience card all, i’ll do the same. Have you ever done any kind of large scale sabermetric research? do you know what it entails?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
I’ll take the boring road and say it’s somewhere in the middle. A lot of the stuff really isn’t that hard (even the fuzzy clustering and non-parametric modeling I do would be child’s play for a guy with a doctorate in mathematics).
However, there’s some specialized knowledge that greatly aids in working in sabermetrics.
And when it comes down to it, it’s more than just being smart as there’s a p.r. aspect to it. Being “known” is still the best way to get a job in baseball media or in baseball itself as an outsider.
I mean, I didn’t apply to work for ESPN or do any kind of consulting. For the former, a guy named Jon Scher simply sent me an email, essentially asking “wanna contribute?” and I replied essentially “letmethinkaboutityes” A guy could be super brilliant, but it’s still going to take a lot of time an energy to get his stuff looked at and build credibility.
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
50k? I'm guessing you don't know any quants working for hedge funds.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 25, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
what?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
That
Or they’ve already been hired by the not-stupid teams however many years ago like the Mejdals, Lunhows, Friedmans, Matt Silvermans and Theo Epsteins of the world—-let alone the hundreds of other employees of MLB teams that we’ve never heard of.
Not afraid to nitpick
Yea, I'm not sure I buy VEP's argument either.
There are too many good analysts for teams out there, like the guys mentioned, that have turned up but haven’t published squat.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Friedman majored in management
Luhnow did business and engineering. Silverman did econ. Friedman did American Studies. None of them are doing research or direct player valuation, they are just really good at their jobs.
My argument is that someone who is a quant finance guy or whatever isn’t going to spend hours trying to understand sabermetrics unless he is going to do something with it. Unless you’re arguing that there’s a special breed of guys who get a high science degree so they can get a job that pays 50 thousand a year, I don’t think those guys exist.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
.. i don't think a lot of them exist, and i don't think they are as good as guys like mike fast and dan fox
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
i don't have access to salary information
(and i doubt you do either) but if that’s all they’re paying, then yeah there might be a problem filling those roles.
is that what you’re arguing?
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Full-time analyst jobs in baseball pay pretty poorly in general – there’s no shortage of guys who want to do it.
Consulting’s more iffy, but you get a lot more bang for the buck.
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
i guess it's not surprising
but if that’s the case, then it proably is hard to recruit top talent. the only guys you’re going to be able to and are the ones who are very passionate about it
so it might be true in a way that there aren’t many people to fill these roles and be as good as mike fast or whatever, but i think it’s more of a market issue than because baseball stats is so hard
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
they all live in their mother's basements
so they don’t need much money.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 25, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
and i don't mean to sound insulting
VEP makes it out like good sabermetricians are about as rare as 5 WAR MLB starting pitchers. i don’t think that’s the case
every MLB team should be able to fill all the data analytics teams they want if they’re willing to pay a market salary and don’t expect everyone to already be familiar with the very esoteric domain that they will be applying their skills
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
analytics positions*
i need to go to bed
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
That's not what I'm saying
I’m saying that the majority of good sabermetricians are found online, because there is little reason to become an expert in it if you’re not going to publish.
I think there are and have been plenty of good sabermetricians not hired. And don’t think that’s because teams are overflowing with underground sabermetricians, it’s because most teams still don’t place a lot of value in analytics.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
i have no idea where these claims came from
those are kind of obvious
at one point you were definitely arguing that there are very few sabermetric experts because it’s totally hard. that’s what i disagree with
i don’t disagree that there’s little reason to get so into it and i don’t disagree that many teams are still living in the dark ages
all i’m claiming is that if every team in baseball all of a sudden started valuing analytics exactly as much as they should, they would all be able to find people with the capacity to be good sabermetricians. read that again: i’m not claiming that all of these people would already be sabermetricians. they would have the capacity to become. they would be productive within a month. because they are professional statisticians. this is not the human genome project
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
no
at one point you were definitely arguing that there are very few sabermetric experts because it’s totally hard. that’s what i disagree with
It’s because it takes a lot of time and there is no economic incentive to do so. All the guys doing it are just wacky hobbyists.
I don’t think that professional statisticians would be better than the internet writers with a month of training – that’s my whole point.
You don’t need to know high level stats to analyze baseball data (although you do need to be good at coding if you want to get past a certain point). You need to understand baseball well and that takes a lot of time. I’d take a guy with mid level statistical skills and years of experience with baseball data over a statistican given a months worth of training every time.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
i think there is economic incentive to do it
if you are getting paid to do it
you seem to be repeatedly missing that part of what i’m saying
beyond that, we’re both arguing points that neither of us can prove and it’s not like you really concede points about things, so i’m going to make that my final statement. good night
by prophetjohn on Jan 25, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
But A) the pay is cheap
And B) there is no specific route for a to take to become a team analyst.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
I think teams might hire guys with good analytical skills and have them learn to apply it to baseball on the job
Not every team is going to think to hire internet community baseball guys, because it’s a bit unconventional, compared to hiring a guy with a great resume from a top institution that has been doing analytics at a big firm.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I guess
But I don’t think those guys will be as good as the ones who spend years actually doing sabermetrics.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
*shrug* well, I won't argue that opinion.
Too debatable. Not enough evidence really. Some of the guys you describe could be that good, I guess, but there are other analysts out there good enough to fill positions in team offices.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
I think it should be pretty clear cut
If you accept that it takes a minimal amount of stats/math knowledge to be a good sabermetrician, than of course the guys with years more experience in the field will be better. Now if you have a guy who’s has a top degree in quant science who’s also been doing sabermetric research as a hobby and for some reason hasn’t published anything, then yeah I agree that he would be as good or better. But I don’t think those guys exist.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
don't hide your light under a bush
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 25, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
I'd say you're a sabermetrician who also does economics
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
So, he's an economic sabermetrician
rather than a sabermetric economist.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 25, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
I actually kinda think of myself as a writer who can do his own stat work, but I may just have a too-optimistic confidence in my writing skills.
by D.Szymborski on Jan 25, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Not that I don't think a good front office can help a team win...
but “skyrocket”? Is there evidence for this?
Sign Roy O
Rays, Blue Jays, Rangers
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
...
that’s not very systematic
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 23, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Sign Roy O
Well I said "can"
obviously it takes luck also. The A’s, for instance, haven’t done anything in recent years despite a good front office (although I’m not convinced Beane is that good anymore – he doesn’t seem have a plan).
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
It depends on your definition of the word "is"
by hangingfromatree on Jan 24, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
There's little transparency...
and little way to determine the effectiveness of what they’re doing…
Sign Roy O
I agree about transparency
but “little way to determine the effectiveness of what they’re doing”? That shows up in their win totals, their farm system rankings, everything.
With the Rays you can definitely see the relationship between sabermetrics and winning – valuing defense and OBP, trading for young players…
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
if someone else were making this argument contrary to a point you were trying to make
it would be a fallacy and you would fall over yourself pointing out that correlation does not equal causation
i’ll be a little more tasteful and say that it’s cool that they signed someone smart to work in the front office, but it doesn’t really guarantee any success unless you have studies saying otherwise
by prophetjohn on Jan 24, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say it would guarantee success
I said it makes them better at player evaluation which should translate to more wins in the future.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
the words are right there. i can look at them right now
do you know that
by prophetjohn on Jan 24, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...yeah...
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
living in michigan, tigers fans are abuzz.
i think it’s a good deal for detroit, at least in short term. fills the void left by victor martinez’s injury. 9/214 was a bit much, IMO
They'll be great in 2012.
In 2013, where do Fielder, Cabrera and Martinez play?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
move cabrera to LF, fielder at first, and martinez as DH.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Cabrera at 2B!
anyone can play there!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
They should make Fielder their closer
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 24, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well, don't call him the closer, just use him almost exclusively in the 9th
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 24, 2012 7:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ron Washington approves of this idea
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Are the Tigers also gonna bat Miggy seventh now?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Is Detroit as rough as everyone says, and, have you been to that pawnshop and are they ever in the news for problems there?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
BGH just got Baroned!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
I can't blame the Fates for my post being one-upped.
I finished it up at the office after Fielder had signed, completely unaward of the deal. I should’ve checked Twitter of MLBTR before posting, I guess.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Or maybe just maybe the comment thread from
VEB…..
Dude, you could have just pimped your own website’s awesomeness!!!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Very true.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
actually that kind of sucks considering his droip in strike outs last season.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
yeah, plus they also seem to be handing out too much money for relievers
But I don’t think their bullpen was that good last year and one year deals are never too bad.
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
He's basically going to the same thing Kyle Mcclellan does in the bullpen for more money, I just don't think it's
the best way to spend $4.5M when Rich Harden is still a free agent.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I wish the Cards would sign Harden.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 24, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
see they made a lot of money from that Eminem superbowl commerical
so they had to spend it somewhere.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
They've got two hall of famers in their prime...
if you’re going to sacrifice the future for the present, now is the time.
Sign Roy O
Jim Leyland
Or Cabrera. Or Verlander.
Dignan: On the run from Johnny Law... ain't no trip to Cleveland.
Last year was just Verlander's second in his career with an ERA+ over 130.
Could definitely do it; I’m just cautious with that label for pitchers in their 20s.
guay are you saying fielder is going to be a HOF'er?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely knew Verlander was one, wasn't sure who your other was
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
More Fielder
@JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Confirmed Prince Fielder has NO OPT OUT….9 yrs $214m
Also
“That just shocked me,” Cecil Fielder told MLB Radio on SiriusXM. "I just landed in New York… and I got that call — that’s crazy! He’s going to come full circle. You know, he’s been there in Detroit most of his young life, so I think he’ll be comfortable in that place. …
(…)
“We’re having a few chats. We’re doing a lot better than we were. Time heals all wounds, man. Everybody has to come back together at some point.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 24, 2012 5:31 PM EST reply actions
Those are two people who are roughly spherical.
So yes, full circle indeed.
by Pegasus on Jan 24, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Anyone think Detroit must have been the "mystery team" who bid on Albert?
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
Yeah, I think this was driven by Martinez's injury
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i think they were
they were said to have an “established first basemen” and apparently Miggy is willing to play 3rd
What about Philly?
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 25, 2012 12:45 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
What would they do when Howard comes back?
I don’t think that’s likely.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
As if they're smart about spending money with regards to Ryan Howard.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 25, 2012 12:50 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Lol touche, but surely they realize they can't have two guys play the same position, right?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Trade Howard & eat part of the contract.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 25, 2012 12:51 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Trade Howard?
Idk, I just don’t see it. The payroll over there is ginormous already anyhow, I don’t think they could afford anything like that, even if they at some of the contract to move Howard.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
at=ate.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
Then who?
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 25, 2012 12:56 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
halladay
I too am operating under the assumption that Philly was definitely the mystery team.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
Trade Halladay? That doesn't clear room on the field for Howard and Pujols though.
They’d look awfully stupid benching Howard when he comes back and/or playing him in LF.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Who is the mystery team?
Idk, I just don’t think it’s the Phils. Are we sure it wasn’t just Lozano? Or that it wasn’t the Angels? The whole thing is so murky it’s hard to have any idea.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
In my head, "touché"
is always “toosh”, the way Duckie says it in Pretty in Pink. Not that I don’t know the difference, it’s just funny to me.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 25, 2012 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
Miggy to play 3rd haha
CesarAMarquez César Augusto Márque
I Have talked with Miguel Cabrera who confirms that will go to third base bit.ly/zv0jB6 #Tigers
Inge should hit .200 before he complains
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
this
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 24, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
2011 Cardinals wannabes
“The best defense is a good offense!”
by hr on Jan 24, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Verlander, ...um, and pray for home runs.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 24, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
this year? is their catching prospect major league ready?
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
TLR to manage All-Star game
Cool news: La Russa to manage National League All-Stars, according to #MLB.
we talked about it on the mini thread today
It’s pretty sweet news though
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
There's high hopes that he will out TLR himself
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Will be surreal with him managing a team opposite Albert's
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 24, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
oh man!
they’ll know when the other is planning an rally-killing hit & run!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
he wont manage agaisnt him
He told the guys on the fast lane that he’ll tell the pitcher albert can’t hit balls right down the middle with nothing on em.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Someone in the last thread expressed hope that he would move the pitcher
to the outfield for one batter then bring him back, which would definitely be cool. But I think I’d prefer to see him have a position player pitch (if only Boog could make the NL All-Star team…), even if All-Star rosters make that possibility vanishingly remote even with TLR at the helm.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 24, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Bat the pitcher third
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
which would really be TLR-esque
since the game is in Kansas City…TLR doesnt need a DH!
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 24, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Oh my goodness....
I remember that!
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 24, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Older than any three of you.
This might just be true
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
That would've been fun to see
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
This reminds me of the PD picture
of Mike Shannon sliding into 2B and being called both OUT and SAFE by two umpires standing there.
I wish I could find this picture. I’ve wanted it for my office wall forever.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 24, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
I was wrong
it was Shannon tagging out a player at the end of a crazy play, pic found here:
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 24, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, that crazy Moon Man.
I love that picture.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
awesome
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 26, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Programming help (I guess?)
Is there any way to grab data from an Adobe Flash presentation online?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
you have to decompile the SWF
But in a short answer, No
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
what do you mean "grab data"?
what type of flash element is it?
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
...
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=314382&cc=5901
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I assume the shot locations are based off of some sort of MySQL database, right?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Well I found the data in the source
Not sure how you would break it down though
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Could you show me how?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
looks like I was mistaken
It was the gamecast data. Looks like it is being fed from a mySQL. So maybe if you could make a fake swf and intercept the data. But that is very unlikely
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 24, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
i'm messing around with it and not sure how you could do this
in a way that is efficient and/or ethical.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
How do you "make" a
single white female? Unless you have a daughter?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 24, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
I imagine ESPN has some sort of contract with MLS over this data. (I'm assuming it's MLS data.)
I’d have someone see if they can get you the data you need from the mySQL since it’s probably as much the property of MLS as ESPN.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What else happened today that I missed?
I go to the doctor and comeback to Fielder being signed by the Tigers.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 24, 2012 6:15 PM EST reply actions
This is why it's a mistake to ever go to the doctor.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 24, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
a beer a day keeps the doctor away
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
That's my problem, haven't had many of those lately.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 24, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Posada retired, Langosch filed her last report for the Pirates,
Timmy Lincecum signed for 2/40, JD Drew likely to retire, shrines being erected to Scott Boras, and the Brewers have a minor leaguer with a great name who looks like a manatee.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 24, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
thanks for the catch-up
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 24, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn't be happier that Prince is out of the National League.
It kinda seems appropriate for him to be wearing a Tigers uniform.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 24, 2012 6:17 PM EST reply actions
Ditto
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 24, 2012 7:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Cecil hit 245 dingers in 7 seasons as a Tiger - anyone think Prince can come close to this number?
I somehow doubt it
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
I asked this in the prior thread and I believe everyone thought Prince would exceed Cecil
I think it is a close call. I don’t think I would necessarily bet the over.
My bet is that Prince collects his cash and promptly lets himself go.
He’ll gain more weight, blow out a knee, and there it will be. Lesson learned will be not to sign a player to over 200MM who is already morbidly obese.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 24, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
then why hasn't he?
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 24, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Hasn't needed to?
I dunno. Maybe he’s just not motivated. But it shouldn’t be difficult to shave 30 pounds with that much extra.
Sign Roy O
Why would he be MORE motivated after being guaranteed $214 million?
I agree it should be easy to make a dent in that if he were to give it a serious effort. He hasn’t, and I don’t think he will.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
He went vegetarian...
if he’s doing that he should be able to lower the overall caloric intake. Although looking at these pictures of him as a kid, it might just flat out be impossible to lose much weight.
Sign Roy O
Is he still vegetarian?
I thought he went vegetarian a few years ago (during which he hasn’t lost any noticeable amount of weight), and quit semi-recently. I’m more confident that it was at least 2-3 years ago that he went veg.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
hmm...
he’s probably hopeless. Howard lost a bunch of weight and it didn’t do a damn bit of good…
Sign Roy O
his ankle still fell off
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 26, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly - especially in a contract year.
And what incentive now does he need to lose weight, other than for health reasons? I can’t get the image of Prince rounding the bases in slo-mo in the NLCS, with his belly flab flopping this way and that – how anyone would give that much cash to that guy is beyond me.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 24, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, I see what you are suggesting
I was just questioning whether Prince would exceed Cecil’s HRs over the whole contract (which would be 27 a year)
Confused
I bought a memory card reader off ebay for $1.42 with a buy it now option. It cost $1.71 to ship it. Worst part USPS ripped the package and it fell out.
I'm betting that at that price
you didn’t go with the insurance option?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 24, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'm disappointed that no one has noticed the Memphis Mafia (plus Schumaker) are about to shred Punto's jersey in the main post photo.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So does it make me an idiot to admit the following?
I just realized reading a post further up the thread that Prince is playing for the same organization his dad did?
Yeah that pretty much makes me an idiot. You are really, really stupid rbn8206… Dumb, dumb person.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 24, 2012 6:55 PM EST reply actions
I'm also...
…more inclined to believe that combining good players and winning a lot of games because of it breeds a clubhouse with good chemistry. A bunch of good clubhouse guys who suck at baseball may be a team where everyone gets along great but the record is equally horrid.
As for the 2011 Redbirds, I think there’s a clear case to be made that Lance’s bounceback campaign and all around mashing had more to do with their WS win than his professional yet kinda slap-happy demeanor. Theriot may have been a great guy in the clubhouse, but he earned his nickname “Erriot” and also popped off in August about how the team was in first when he was the SS. That’s a big eff you to Furcal, I guy who has had an unquestionably better career. And Laird was a fairly inconsequential player for the team, even though his victory leap is pretty awesome. Strauss is way, way off in that piece.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 24, 2012 7:02 PM EST reply actions
so if the tigers were to say, make the world series
miguel cabrera could be playing as many 4 games in the outfield, that will be fun
Reports are that he'll play third base.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i'm assuming that means: '. . . in 2013 and 2014."
with martinez out of the DH spot this year and inge still under contract this year, there is no need to move cabrera to third in 2012.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Eh
not what it seems. Odd I know.. Your idea makes more sense though.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 24, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Inge may be under contract
but I’m betting playing Cabrera at third and someone else (anyone else!) in LF instead of Inge playing anywhere will result in more wins for Detroit.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 24, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
depends on who DH's for detroit.
I don’t know enough about their club to know who DH’s if fielder and cabrera are in the field.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 24, 2012 10:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
dead VEB is dead
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 24, 2012 9:36 PM EST reply actions
But zombie VEB wants brains
BRAINS!!!!!
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 24, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
state of the union
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
by beer me on Jan 24, 2012 9:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We've run out of Fieldermentum
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Does this kill the Royals window?
They aren’t better and won’t be better than the Tigers, Angels, Rangers, Rays, Red Sox, and Yankees.
Sign Roy O
They still play in the weakest division in the league
But the Tigers are looking like a 95 win team for the next several seasons. So yeah, probably. Killed before it even started.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
that's about how long the royals window is though
unless Dayton actually plays his hand right.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
say what you want about Cleveland sports fans
I would say that being a Kansas City sports fan has to be the most depressing
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 24, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
...as far as pro sports go
besides, I’m sure not everyone in KC is a jayhawk fan
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 24, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, seeing as how, the last time I looked, most of the KC pop. was in Missouri...
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 24, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Half-closes it.
Makes it much harder to compete in the immediate future. Still room to compete in a few years, but they might need to spend some money.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
i remember getting so pissed in college
when the bars in Carbondale would play the state of the union instead of music
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 24, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don't blame you.
I’m not sure what the point of watching the SOTU is when there are several 24-hour news outlets.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
So they're saying on twitter that the tigers' ownership...
went around the GM and agreed to the Fielder contract themselves. Two questions: how can a GM possibly function with this kind of thing happening? I mean, the plan when you have Fielder signed to 9/214 and the plan when you don’t have him signed are two completely different plans. Second, if you’re a pizza man, and you hire a baseball expert to run your baseball team, why would you make the biggest decisions without advice from said baseball expert? Shouldn’t he get rid of Dombrowski if he’s not willing to let him make the biggest decisions?
Sign Roy O
Heh.
If I’m Dombrowski, and that story is true, I think about quitting unless there’s a nice note on my desk in the morning saying “Hey Dave. Sorry ‘bout that! I just couldn’t help meself. BTW, there’s an extra 20mil in payroll for the next 9 years. No hard feelings?”
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I was thinking about this.
Don’t think you can quit; top baseball jobs are too hard to come by. If you’re going to make an issue out of it at all, you make it so that they fire you and you get the rest of your contract while being an AGM, scout, or Special Asst to the GM somewhere else.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
well that would be lovely
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
How many GMs have just quit?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Well, adding Prince single-handedly improved the bottom line of Dominos...
Unless there’s a clause in his contract stating Prince gets free pizza.
Assuming one pizza = $10, and assuming Prince can eat 3-4 pizzas a day…well, the contract almost pays for itself.
by mattisnotfrench on Jan 25, 2012 1:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Was there ever any mention of what the Laird-Yadi fight was regarding?
Beyond the, “it was a long, hot day” stuff?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
Completely OT: Does anyone else think the 1800 Tequila commercials suck?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
I don't see how their commercials this bad, and still get run out there over and over again.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
I do
You watching Justified? I’ve seen 2 or 3 so far.
The whole real men thing pisses me off. All I do when I drink with friends is talk about sports. Trying to appeal to men who wanna be real men. Real men drink whiskey.
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I do love the new Captain Morgan commercials
but only because they play Iggy Pop
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
My roommate is.
It doesn’t bother me that they’re doing a “real men” thing, it’s that I can’t even jokingly agree with the crap the spokesman is saying. None of it strikes me as either being true or funny.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Right, they've realized we don't buy their booze when they make commercials about frat boys trying to get laid
and now are moving on to different things
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
I'm starting to wonder if I just hate that guy.
But I think it’s the guy and the commercial writers.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
He reminds me of a douchier, not as tough, dumber version of all the Brooklyn guys I've met
Pretty sure the accent is fake. Doesn’t seem that good.
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 24, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Heh
Not a Sopranos fan eh?
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 25, 2012 12:49 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
he's forever "christaphuh" to me.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 25, 2012 2:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
He is Chris for Sopranos
Awesome character, awesome show
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jan 25, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
I pour my 1800 tequila into my dr. pepper ten,
Just so I can be sure I’m a real man.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 24, 2012 11:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Real men don't waste all that money
Real men just “man up” and drink Miller Lite.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Man Law
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 25, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
So Cespedes gained his residency today
Which I.guess means he will be a FA pretty soon. I’m interested to see what kind of money he gets. Why in the hell did his agent let him play winter ball though? That seemed like a really bad decision from the start. I know its a really SSS, but 5-35 with 10k’s and no walks has to have hurt his value at least a little bit.
by mick311 on Jan 24, 2012 10:55 PM EST via mobile reply actions
It just goes to prove that he is in no way ML ready
Which will surely hurt him in terms of money
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 24, 2012 10:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
OT: Hiring ethics
Is it ethical, or standard practice, or either, to be on a hiring committee of you are providing a letter of recommendation for one of the applicants?
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 24, 2012 10:58 PM EST reply actions
idk if it's standard practice, but I don't see why it wouldn't be ethical.
Especially if you’re providing a letter of rec — everyone knows that you like the applicant, so it’s not like you’re hiding anything.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 24, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Most people have the job they have now
Because someone they knew helped them get it. I see nothing wrong with it
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 25, 2012 3:20 AM EST up reply actions
I would recuse myself.
FWIW, I’ve done something like 140 interviews in the last two years, and I’ve recused myself twice, once for someone I’d worked with that had a significant personal issue that I knew about that I couldn’t disclose to the other panel members, and once for a person who had supported me as a contractor and had not distinguished themselves.
That’s kind of the opposite of this situation, but I still don’t think I’d be willing to be a voting member in that situation. Too much leeway to open yourself up for a lawsuit from someone who didn’t get hired. OTOH, I think it would be fine to offer verbal support, and if the other members of the panel respect you, they’d listen.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
credit where credit is due
Way to nail Strauss’ behind to the wall. This is a fabulous article. I believe winning breeds chemistry, but the players and mgmt had us believe the chemistry was fixed when Brendan Ryan was traded. The truth is it all changed when Mo corrected his plethora of preseason mistakes. When that happened, the winning created great chemistry.
Don't watch much TV drama anymore
but I’m really looking forward to this.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 24, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm going to plead ignorance here. What the hell is that?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 24, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
an advertisement for season 5 of mad men
by prophetjohn on Jan 24, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
after an unusually long period of time since season 4
by prophetjohn on Jan 24, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
K. I just drew a complete blank.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 24, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
I still have to watch season 4
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 25, 2012 6:17 AM EST up reply actions
It's the kind of ad that really gives no clue
So unless you already knew it was a Mad Men ad, why should you be able to figure it out? I actually hate advertisements like this. If I see an ad and think “welp, I have no idea what that is for” then the ad has failed.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
Do they jump from planes frequently in that show?
Or fall down staircases?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Clearly it's a visual metaphor for the tragic downfall of skinny-tie wearing men.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I thought it was a butterfly
or a bunny rabbit
or a fish
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
he's falling from the top of a building down to Madison Ave
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... Az.
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 26, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
For some reason I have MLB Net on in the background.
When did Kevin Millar start to look like Cliff Clavin?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 12:35 AM EST reply actions
You take the back right now.
Cliff would never get highlights. Or be as dumb as Millar.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
I think your lofty opinion of Clavin is unhealthy.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 25, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
I think you're looking at this the wrong way.
My opinion of Clavin is not lofty, though I did love the show.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 25, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
yo
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
You still looking for a copy of a
The girl with the dragon tattoo? A good copy is out there now
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 25, 2012 2:31 AM EST up reply actions
nah, thanks
i saw it in theaters a while ago.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 25, 2012 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
/meme
"young man, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 25, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
pretty sure we have to say it like twice a day
Around 4 pm and after midnight
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Jan 25, 2012 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
Works for me
I think that…
…there’s just not all that much going on in baseball right now…
Cards fan in Middle East
Minor League Ball and MLB Bonus Baby have merged
That makes sense
2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 25, 2012 8:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, and it's kinda cool
I already check Minor League Ball a lot, so now I can just keep checking it and hopefully soak up more knowledge about the draft.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
About a throwaway line in the Strauss article
Theriot and Laird departed via free agency, as did Edwin Jackson…
Other than Leapin’, have the others signed with anyone yet? And if they don’t, have they actually “departed”? Wasn’t Theriot arby eligible? And if so, what happens if nobody signs him?
Cards fan in Middle East
He's a free agent.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
It's now Wednesday!
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Chemistry...
comes from having confidence in your teammates to be able to make the plays necessary to win. Things seemed to get better when there was a shortstop who did not seem to boot routine plays/double plays and even make dramatic plays. Things seemed to get better when the bullpen was able to shut down opponents and give the starters wins instead of no decisions. Confidence in your teammates removes any bitterness from them not living up to their end of the deal and makes for a positive environment.
So, higher skill leads to better chemistry?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Not necessarily
It is the skill and the respect for your teammates to support them that drives chemistry. You can have a roster full of the best skilled players, but if the only thing they care about is getting their own stats, chemistry will not develop. But you can also have a group of average players with great chemistry play above their skill because they are concerned with how their play lets can let the team down, and no one wants to do that.
A very thought provoking article.
I’ve never been in a major league locker room, my highest level being high school athletics and I was a scrub then. I have often wondered what there was about baseball that could be described as a “team” sport. It seems like the entirety is a string of singular events executed by different individuals. The success or failure of the “team” relied upon the outcome of each event. I suppose a transcript of the Carp called meeting would shed the definitive light on the subject. What really gets said in those meetings? Somebody has to get called out, one would think. “You’re stinking up the place!” But just as surely as pointing out a spelling/grammatical error in a post will absolutely guarantee an error in your post, ragging on a guy for an error will surely mean you will commit one at the first opportunity. I don’t suppose pros do that. I think the essence is that they all play for themselves and if enough succeed, the team wins. I guess the biggest sin of a pro to another pro is not putting out the effort.
Unlike sports like football, basketball and hockey, I feel that baseball is based largely on individual accomplishments.
To be sure, there is reliance on teammates but that reliance is largely a series of isolated individual plays. The pitcher faces the batter. The pitcher executes the pitch. The catcher catches it. If it’s hit, a fielder fields it and, possibly, makes a throw to first which the first baseman catches. There aren’t many plays (like in basketball or football) that require the team as a whole working in unison.
Hitting is also by and large an individual performing in isolation.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
That's what I was getting at.
I guess a SAC bunt or taking one in the ribs is about only true “team” oriented thing a player can do. I think a SAC fly is about the ultimate in luck for a hitter. I mean if a guy goes 0-4 with a runner on second and flies out to left those 4 times, chances are good he’ll be among the goat herd if they lose. Put those same runners on 3rd and he probably has 3-4 RBI. Was he really sacrificing his chance for a base hit at for a fly ball? Anyway back to the chemistry part, I would imagine that a lack of communication is the biggest buzz killer in a locker room. A real or imagined slight by another player ie. a pitcher thinking, “Hmmm, he didn’t dive for that ball for me like he did for so and so.” Or maybe as mundane as, “DAMN, I wish he would turn that rap music off in the locker room.”
the '72-74 A's
Terrible chemistry, lots of strong personalities, lots of egos, lots of clashes, a self-absorbed superstar (R. Jackson), a cheapskate meddling owner (C. Finley), a temperamental manager (D. Williams), and…..
Three straight world championships.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
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