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Is Wainwright's curve ball just an illusion

Since a lot of us are just sitting around in limbo, waiting anxiously for ST to get under way while with little else to do but talk about the Cardinal’s prospect for the coming season and the expectations of this player or that player etc. I thought a few people might have an interest in a kind of offbeat post on a piddling subject, so with that in mind, here goes.

For four or five days after the Beltran signing, someone would invariably every day, re-post the old video of Wainwright’s game inning strikeout of Beltran in the 2006 playoffs and every time it’s been posted, I’ve always paused to watch it for a minute or two. I have never tired of watching that clip.

After studying for a few minutes the other day, I was reminded of a news story from back in the 1950’s when some American university (and I can’t remember which one), published A scientific paper after conducting extensive experiments on the question of: how is it possible that a baseball can be made to curve by a pitcher throwing it the distance from mound to home plate on a baseball diamond and their conclusion was; it wasn't possible. In short their findings were as I remember: no human arm had the strength, torque or wrist movement to make a round object the size and weight of a baseball, curve within a distance of 60’ 6." Therefore a curveball was only an optical illusion perceived by the human eye, when a baseball was thrown with a certain amount of spin on it.

The AP picked up the story and it was printed in a number of papers around the country and was treated with some scorn by the baseball world and knowledgeable sports fans in general. The Sporting News, which was still a baseball only publication at the time, printed a large article including an interview with the Professor that had headed up the experiment and he was quite adamant in that their findings were valid. I took the whole matter with only mild amusement because I was old enough at the time to have played HS and some semi-pro ball and had seen some pretty good country curve balls thrown by me and they seemed real enough to my thinking.

The faint memory of this occurrence has however, always remained embedded in the (ROM) read only memory of my brain, and from time to time surfaced, when observing an especially good curve ball snapped off by some major league pitcher. So, after studying Wainwright’s beauty for a couple of minutes last week, I decided to try a Google to see if I could find something on the incident I had remembered and to my surprise found much more. Although, I could never pin down an account of the incident I was seeking, the issue had obviously been an ongoing argument for some time among Physicists and only until more recent years had theory and evidence been presented to settle the matter somewhat among them. Also, I found that the reported findings that I had recalled was by no means the first controversy with the protectors of the law of physics and the issue had evidently gone on since Abner Doubleday, or whoever it was, had first managed to serve up a twister to a befuddled batter.

I discovered the matter had surfaced also back in the 1930’s when Dizzy Dean was pitching and somebody asked Dean what he thought about the theory and Dizzy commented: (there have been a number of versions of what Dean said, so I’ll just take the liberty of passing on my favorite) "Well, I don’t rightly know, but if you’ll give me a baseball and stand over behind that tree yonder and kinda’ peep around, I’ll show you a real nice one of them optical illusions." I was about to abandon my little venture into research on an insignificant subject when one Google link caught my eye with the mention of a theory called "the magnus effect" which it seems had become widely excepted as proof positive by a portion of the scientific community, that a baseball indeed could be spun into a curve by a human arm from 60’ 6".. but with a slight hitch. It would be on a gradual curve line (or an arcing curve line) and not with the break that we normally see. The break really is an illusion they purport.

The magnus effect:

note: I tried for at least thirty minutes insert this image into the post for better clarity but for some unknown reason, could not. So if you will just read on you can go back click on to check. Also, there is some more g good information on the page. Anyway to mush on:

The figure depicted in the link above is used to explain the curve arc as caused by the Magnus effect. The proponent’s Hypothesis is, that as the ball leaves the pitchers hand ( with a forward spin toward home plate, (from left to right in the figure) the raised seams of the ball will act somewhat as small fins, directing a certain amount of air downward and under the ball and leaving a partial vacuum for the air above the ball to fill in, therefore creating downward pressure on the ball. This downward pressure causes the ball to sink more on it’s flight to the plate than what normal gravity would cause on a ball thrown at the same speed but with less spin. A typical major league curve ball travels at about 75 mph, and spins at an oblique angle at about 1500 rpm, with about 0.6 seconds travel time from the pitchers hand to home plate. The ball undergoes about 13 complete revolutions in it’s travel to the plate. Pitchers who can launch a directly overhand pitch with required spin will get close to a downward arc and this is commonly known as the 12 to 6 curveball. Also for maximum effect (and because of the lower speeds of the curveball), the ball should be released from the pitcher’s hand with a slight upward travel to prevent the ball from dropping low and out of the strike zone or possibly into the dirt before it’s intended destination.

And now for the kicker: the break that the batter sees as the ball nears the plate is the illusion, sometimes referred to as "feature blur." This supposedly is a phenomenon that occurs when the flight of the ball changes from a peripheral view to a more focused view to the hitter. That is the break. Some contend that, what the batter actually sees is the sum of the gradual curving of the ball from the time it leaves the pitchers hand (and is in his peripheral vision) to the time he manage to put focus on the ball as it nears him, and he sees the sum (total) all at once, so to speak. Obviously, if this is true, this is what a spectator who is watching a pretty much direct flight of the ball from behind the pitcher or catcher also sees, because this is what I see watching Wainwright’s hook on TV.

Now at this point let me summarize by saying the wording used in this post to describe what physicists have contend happens, is my own and might be right, close to right or somewhere in left field. I just Googled, "is the curve ball real or an illusion" and scanned a number of articles. There is a lot of material on the subject out there but most of the physicists that have done experiments in the matter obviously hired lawyers to write the reports of their findings, so I just tried to put into my own words and as simple as possible what I thought the lawyers were trying to convey. Feel free to correct me on anything you feel is wrong. I won’t argue. There are probably a number on VEB that are more knowledgeable on the subject than me but in the time that I have followed the blog I have not seen a post on the subject, or that much mention of it, actually.

In the paragraph above in which I presented the "feature blur" or illusion theory, was taken from an article about the experiments and conclusions of four physicists at four different universities that worked collectively to provide evidence to support this theory. They devised a small flash player application to demonstrate the phenomenon and I have provided a link to the page at the end of this post. Notice when you view it that there is a blue dot on the right of the screen. Focus on the blue dot and when you see a spinning ball out of your left peripheral view, shift your focus to it and it will do a sharp downward turn. Notice if you focus to a point somewhat near it, will break less. If you slowly dart your eyes from left to right of it when it is spinning down, you can make it wiggle. There are several controls to adjust speed, spin etc. but I didn’t mess with them much, and also two large tabs labeled REVERSAL and PDF file. Make sure you click the REVERSAL button, It is of interest, and clicking the PDF file will link you to a page with information on tests and the physicists involved in these experiments.

Now for some questions I was left to ponder after absorbing this information: Since spin seems to be the key element involved in creating movement on a baseball and the stitching and seaming also play a large factor, How is it possible that in over a hundred years of history, just Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan and only a few others have learned to put enough spin on a 96 MPH fastball to make it break like a curve ball and everybody else left to throw what would be called normal sliders and sinkers?… And how did Greg Maddox learn to put enough spin on everything he threw, no matter the speed, to make it move all over the place. Did he watch Mike Scott a lot when Scott was pitching for the Astros?

And what did Beltran see when he watched that Wainwright pitch go by? We know what we saw but Beltran had a better angle and a professional eye and he must have seen one humongous fall off the table as it went by him. Which leads to my next question, can a hitter have too good of an eye and focus, causing him to have trouble with the curve, while a mediocre hitter with less eye and focus, have better success with the curve because his eye detects less break? Would Ryan Theroit have knocked the shit out of Wainwright’s pitch?.. And all the reports of a juiced up baseball over the years when home runs an extra base hits go up. Has baseball just monkied with the stitching of the ball from time to time; using smaller gauge thread to sew the seams, making them less raised and lowering the fin effect and reducing the curved arc, resulting in pitchers giving up mammoth drives because they can’t put enough movement on the ball?..And what happens if you increase the size of the thread used to sew the seams, raising the seams. Would we then see mass low scoring pitching duels and back to "Whitey Ball?" The questions just go on and on.

Like back in the late 1840’s, when a young kid (Ellis Drake) ran into his dad’s shoe shop one day after school with two figure eights cut out of paper and said, "hey dad, will you cut me a couple of pieces of that old horsehide you got in the back, just like these two pieces of paper I cut out and then help me stitch them around this thread ball. I don’t like them old one piece covers on the baseballs we got at school." Now that leads me to wonder, did young Ellis know what he was creating and had already figured out something that would have pysicists scratching their heads for a hundred years to explain…or was it just circumstance on his part and the GOB had already started fiddling with the game.

I tell you folks, This opens up a brand new can of worms for me and I don’t know if I want deal with this confusion any longer, so I’m just going to quit thinking about it and forget the whole damn thing. Thanks for reading.

Comment 31 comments  |  12 recs  | 

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Yikes

I do not know whats going wrong. I prepared this in office 10 word, pasted and edited in HTML on site, published and it came out with no links, a complete text mass all in one paragraph and the links gone. I re-edited and tried putting the links back in and could not for some reason. also the break was removed and moved to bottom. If one of the editors wants to remove this post. please do. Inittally, I could not insert the figure I wanted to insert. I do not know if this site doesn’t like office or doesn’ like me.

Anyway here are the 2 links, the first is to the magnus effect and the 2nd to Feature blur or illusion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect

http://illusioncontest.neuralcorrelate.com/2009/the-break-of-the-curveball/

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2012 1:09 AM EST reply actions  

your second link on feature blur is great..when that first came out I played with it constantly.

there is a really good (and cheap!) book on the physics of baseball that discusses a wide swath of topics and variables I had never previously considered. Give it a look: http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Baseball-3rd-Robert-Adair/dp/0060084367

by all4tookie on Jan 12, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

many thanks for this

physics is one of the main reasons baseball is my favorite sport. I thought your article was very thoughtful and easy to understand. I’m very curious to see what VEB comments appear. I think the second link you have posted in the comments has made its way to ‘birdos before, but I don’t think there has been much talk on it, especially on the controversies it has caused that you mentioned.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2012 1:50 AM EST reply actions  

What confuses me is

the reference to “peripheral vision.” Aren’t the hitters looking straight at the ball throughout its flight?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 12, 2012 11:18 AM EST reply actions  

They're trying to, but they can't.

The human eye can’t pick up the entire path of the ball from the time it leaves the pitcher’s hand to the moment of contact/moment it crosses the plate. This is part of the illusion that ridgsee is talking about. Your visual cortex is guessing at the actual path of the ball due to what it sees, which makes the ball look like it’s “curving” when it’s actually not.

I think this is more true on the forkball or split-finger fastball than on the curveball, because the human eye has such a hard time with vertical movement, it seems like the ball “has the bottom drop out of it” when in reality it’s just on a downward plane the entire time — the spin just makes it look like it dives near the end.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 12, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Well it's also the expectations

A fastball “rises” (relative to a non-spinning ball yada yada) 7-10 inches, whereas a splitter only like 3-4. If you’re brain is processing fastball, it “falls” an extra 3-7 inches.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 12, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

but it's not like batters see thousands of non-spinning 90+ mph pitches each year...

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 13, 2012 2:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I like the way you think
Would Ryan Theroit have knocked the shit out of Wainwright’s pitch?

When I played little league, I was pretty terrible. I normally had 2-3 hits in a season and a good game for me was 0-2 with a walk. Then one year we played a team with a pitcher who pitched different than everyone else we ever faced. It was slow and arc-y. Everyone else on the team had a heck of a time with him. They kept grabbing the biggest/heaviest bats. I went up for the first time with my normal bat and the guy seem to be pitching exactly my speed and I got a base hit. The second time up to bat, I crushed it and chugged into second with a standup double. (I often joked that most of the kids on my team would have had a HR on a ball hit that far.)

I realize a 9-year old probably wasn’t throwing a curveball, but I this is what popped into my mind. I was probably as bad at little league as Therriot was at MLB.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 12, 2012 11:43 AM EST reply actions  

I'll tell you what Beltran did NOT see.....

The ball!

Seriously, on top of all this (and when everyone started referencing that article on the Magnus effect years ago I looked at that for like half a day) what really kills me about hitting a baseball is that in theory once the pitch gets close enough to you, it’s moving too fast for you to see. So a hitter can be dialed in, but when he swings, he supposedly can’t see the ball for at the last 3 feet or so (I’m guessing on that number, I think it’s 3 or 4).

by sdrone on Jan 12, 2012 12:41 PM EST reply actions  

To anone of interest

there is another page on wikipedia with some pretty good common sense info on the curveball and if you will scan on down the page to where it covers the history of the curve, the author lists 21 pitchers that was noted to have outstanding curves and three of them are recent Cardinals: Wainwright, Kyle, and Matt Morris. Also, out of all listed there were only 2 that I had not seen pitch: “Three Fingers Brown” and Tommy Bridges. So I guessed the Author to be about my age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2012 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

Three Fingers Brown!

Mr. Burns’ starting pitcher of preference! But due to the misfortune of death, Roger Clemens had to be settled for…

"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2012 3:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Green'ed sir ... man I loved that. thanks ridgesee

BTW a new guy, gus w, posted today … joined in Feb 2010, he’s been a fan since 1935, so hopefully you’ll have some more company entertaining us with eyewitness accounts of the ol’ days.

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 12, 2012 7:29 PM EST reply actions  

Wow!

1935, I yield to Gus. He is an old dude. I was around at that time, couldn’t talk much though, maybe a little babble: ma ma, da da, hey, hi. You know, the usual baby shit.

by ridgesee on Jan 13, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I would take exception to the phrasing

the mention of a theory called “the magnus effect” which it seems had become widely excepted as proof positive by a portion of the scientific community, that a baseball indeed could be spun into a curve by a human arm from 60’ 6".

The magnus effect is extremely settled physics from the 19th century. Anyone disagreeing it would be laughed out of any physics department in the world. It appears very naturally when studying any sort of fluid dynamics in the neighborhood of a spinning body.

The result of that paper from the ’50s was probably that the magnus effect was insufficient to explain the level of drop reported by batters.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 12, 2012 8:11 PM EST reply actions  

All you need to do to see it, in fact, is kick a soccer ball off-center

and watch it follow a curved path across the pitch.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 12, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Or hit a golf ball with an inside/out swing path

Even if you hit the damn thing dead center on the sweet spot, it’s gonna slice into the lake/woods/$3M Home of some asshole.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 16, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Since the ball slows as it approaches home plate

and slows more for a curveball than for a fastball, it would make sense that as it gets closer to home plate that it actually does have more break, because it’s not traveling as fast. Perhaps the deceleration also causes less break due to less air moving over the seams and it cancels out, but it’s just a theory.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 15, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not what you see from the stands or on TV

look at the video below—the path of the ball is a nice, smooth, continuous curve, just like physics demands.

After all, a sudden change in force is not going to change the particle’s position, or momentum. Only the rate of change of momentum. And the onset to magnus-effect dominated physics is a gradual effect in and of itself.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 16, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Valatan

I can see that you could take exception with the statement you questioned and
you are right of course when when you say you would be laughed out of any physics
department for disagreeing with the Magnus effect..but if you look closely at my wording,
I am probably more guilty of trying to be too careful with my statement in order to avoid
an argument that is 180 degrees from the way you took the statement.

What I actually said was " widely excepted as proof positive, by a portion of the scientific
community," and taking into consideration Websters defination of a scientist: A person with advanced knowledge in at least one or more sciences and of course Physics is a science. I was really trying to cover my butt if somebody came up with some mad scientist out there that is kind of weak on his Physics and I thought I had ran across in several articles about Mike Schmidht disagreeing with the theory and I thought I read about one scientist agreeing. Anyway, some days you just can’t win either way

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2012 9:53 PM EST reply actions  

Fair enough

and I was just trying to clarify more than anything. I would also argue that, at a game, or in slow motion on TV, what you see really is a gradual curving—it’s only when you’re standing in the batters’ box that you see the ‘drop off the table’ effects. And the stuff about visual blurring was really new to me. I was just pointing out that the magnus effect approaches the law of gravity in its level of settled-ness.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 13, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Peripheral vision

While they might scrape a little credence from the batter not having a totally straight on look at the ball, I umpired some high school and JC ball and some of those kids threw pretty good optical illusions. I remember when those arguments were going around. I always wondered how a catcher could be crossed up if the ball wasn’t actually moving.

by nitetrane98 on Jan 13, 2012 10:43 AM EST reply actions  

I think the argument is that

the optical illusion magnifies the real effect. Look at the video below—the path of the ball is a continuous curve, not a straight line followed by a sudden break, which is the reported effect as seen from the batter’s box.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 16, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

How does pitch FX work then?

Doesn’t pitch FX measure the movement of the ball relative to its ballistic trajectory in the absence of spin? I don’t think that a camera/computer would be susceptible to issues of perception related to illusion and peripheral vision.

by tintin47 on Jan 13, 2012 12:53 PM EST reply actions  

My question.

Don’t we track the movement now, and spin?

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Jan 13, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Betran saw the ball

He was just thinking/hoping it would miss high.

That’s what’s so wicked about the pitch.

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Jan 14, 2012 1:01 AM EST reply actions  

looked like it fooled yadi, too

awesome last-minute glove movement, that I never noticed before.

And he’s seen a lot more adam wainwright curveballs than anyone.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 14, 2012 2:18 AM EST up reply actions  

The glove movement is SOP on the curveball

McCarver explains it often while commentating.

The catcher keeps his glove in motion, tracking the ball on the curve down, so that if the ball is too down (i.e. in the dirt) he’s in position to block it.

Cards fan in Middle East

by Shloz on Jan 17, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

that's exactly the way it looks to me

it’s easier to it a moving target if your lead it

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 21, 2012 7:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Another great fanpost

I had never heard this before

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Jan 16, 2012 12:27 AM EST reply actions  

this is a great topic, now i know why my physics teacher loved using baseball for his test questions, they were fun. We never got to go into details with the magnus effect and such since i just stopped at physics 2. Not my main strength so i kind of opted out of the engineering business, but we did get to play on randy johnson’s awesome pitch to a bird for a questions.

by theredmonster on Jan 23, 2012 7:05 PM EST reply actions  

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