Late Night VEB: Jim Edmonds, Kirby Puckett & the Hall of Fame
by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 10:00 PM EST
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PrintIn the build up to and the aftermath of the Hall-of-Fame election each year, a passionate discussion is held regarding the candidacies of various players. Much ink has been spilt over the candidacies of those players on the ballot this year. DanUp wrote a great post on the former Cardinals on the ballot as well as the future candidacies of former Cardinals. That post has links to some of his other writings on a subject dear to his and many of our hearts: the Hall-of-Fame candidacy of Jim Edmonds.
A few years back, former Minnesota Twins center fielder, Kirby Puckett was inducted into the Hall of Fame. This was before I paid much attention to the annual BBWAA ballot. I was happy with Puckett's induction. I knew him to be a decent center fielder whose career numbers and defense paled in comparison to the Cardinals' own Edmonds. I thought Puckett's induction meant Edmonds was a sure-thing Hall-of-Famer.
On defense, Puckett was a poor center fielder. His career Total Zone for center field is -12. For some reason--likely his hitting--Puckett won six Gold Glove awards over the course of his career. Compare Puckett to Edmonds. Edmonds deservedly won eight Gold Gloves. I write "deservedly" because his career Total Zone in center is 83.
Here is a chart comparing the two players' offensive statistics.
|
Player |
PA |
H |
BB |
R |
HR |
RBI |
BA |
OBP |
SLG |
OPS+ |
fWAR |
|
Edmonds |
7980 |
1949 |
998 |
1251 |
393 |
1199 |
.284 |
.376 |
.527 |
131 |
67.7 |
|
Puckett |
7831 |
2304 |
450 |
1071 |
207 |
1085 |
.318 |
.360 |
.477 |
124 |
49.4 |
While Puckett had the higher batting average and, relatedly, more total career hits, Edmonds is by far the superior offensive player. Edmonds walked twice as many times, scored more runs, hit 186 more homers, had an OBP 16 points higher, and slugged at a far higher rate--Edmonds's career ISO was .243 to Puckett's .159. Edmonds's OPS was better relative to his peers than Puckett's was, as well. Edmonds posted a career wOBA of .383 while Puckett's career wOBA is .365.
Both Puckett and Edmonds played center field, a position that is woefully underrepresented in the Hall of Fame. Edmonds played the position better defensively and was a better offensive player in his career than Puckett. I've never been a big fan of the argument that, "If Player X is a Hall-of-Famer, then Player Y is should be, too," but Puckett's induction should cause voters to give Jim Edmonds serious consideration.
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proof that reading @joestrauss will make you dumber:
So if candidate cuts against the sabe orthodoxy he should be dismissed? Love intellectual fascism. (And I didn’t vote for him.)
Larkin elected by about 85 percent of electorate and a self-appointed Pope wants to strip those who dissent of vote? Intellectual fascism
Listening to local sports talk constructing multiple strawmen about HOF vote. Self-importance on display. #Humorous #Weak
Sabes live to decry small sample sizes then use outlier ballots to discredit entire BBWAA. Interesting.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Wait, Strauss has a HOF vote?
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I believe so
it’s disgusting
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
At least he actually covers baseball...
and (presumably) is interested in it. The hardball talk guy linked to a Jersey Hockey columnist who’s ballot included Don Mattingly and no one else.
Sign Roy O
yep and DG doesn't
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
He's unhinged.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:10 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
So...
Would Jimmy go into the Hall as a Cardinal or an Angel?
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:10 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
That is not where I told it to go.
Android app be bugging.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:11 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I would think anyone not in Anaheim would think of Jimmy as a Cardinal
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
I was just kidding around.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:18 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
What if Arte Morneo threw some "commitment" his way?
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
That's why the hall picks now.
The Devil Rays allegedly did that with Wade Boggs.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
i know this
/was joke
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
wow, you 2 really need to read each other better.
work on that, please.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Yeah, I have a Twitter...big whoop...wanna fight about it?
I'm too sleep deprived.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:31 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Rolen is a more interesting one I think
presumably he would go in as a Cardinal but he only played one less year or so and I think might’ve actually even had more WAR in his time in Philly. I think he kinda disowned the Phillies when they parted on bad terms, though.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
This is why I do not follow him
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
outliers?
I thought Morris got > 60%??
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 10:38 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Strauss doesn't understand what an outlier is.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Someone lying in the outfield, of course
those guys who allowed Olerud to get four triples in ’98, they were outliers.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think some of this stuff about certain positions being under represented is overblown, or perhaps under researched.
is the entire basis for the arguments just Hall position totals?
seems like a proper investigation of this would be how many deserving players have been left out at each position and how many undeserving players have been inducted. that probably gets subjective very quickly but I think it’d be more accurate.
it’s entirely possible that some positions have not produced players that really stand out (though probably unlikely). isn’t the difference just 2-3 players for the most part anyway? thoughts?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 10:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
reply fail
/mobile app’d
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 10:47 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
For those who didn't listen to
Bernie Miklasz’ radio show yesterday, these comments were spurred by the conversation Bernie and Joe Sheehan were having about Larkin and the HOF in general. Bernie read a couple of these tweets aloud on the air and then he went after Strauss pretty hard, and by name, for a couple of minutes after the Sheehan interview. It was not done in a bitter way, but there was a little bit of an edge in Bernie’s tone, in my opinion.
Interesting!
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 11, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah for super thread comments on a nothing-happening day!
(Except for retaining the services of Koyie (I can high five again!) Hill, and learning that Commander Adama is heading to Jupiter ahead of the Cylon strike force.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 10:10 PM EST reply actions
ok, you've totally convinced me that if they don't vote in Edmonds it will be a huge snub
not enough CFers in the HOF anyway
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 10:32 PM EST reply actions
does anyone else think
puckett got more than a few votes because of the glaucoma thing. i do. i think more than a few voters were just itching to throw the “kofax card” for kirby. they would justify it by saying he would have put up bigger counting stats if he had been able to play longer, therefore, “im voting him in because i think he would have been a HOF player”. Im not saying i agree with this. I think its wrong and sets a precedent
that's called the Heyman Analysis.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i think koufax's accomplishments were so astonishing that his peak should be the exclusive basis for his HOF candidacy
from ‘63 to ’66, he was worth 10.8, 7.8, 8.2, and 10.8 WAR. that’s astonishing. very few players have put up that kind of peak.
i wouldn’t say koufax is so much a “what-if” admission to the HOF. and puckett has nothing like that kind of peak (breaking 6 WAR twice in his career).
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
Do you give him extra credit relative to recent pitchers...
for pitching prior to TJ surgery having been invented?
Sign Roy O
Because if TJ surgery isn't a performance enhancing...
drug medical intervention, I dunno what is…
Sign Roy O
I don't think that's the issue with peds.
there are tons of things that are performance enhancing. tj surgery, as well as practice and weight lifting and so many other things.
one reason people don’t have an issue with surgeries is that it doesn’t boost your ability higher than it’s origin. and people don’t take exception to increasing ability through effort or work like practicing or lifting.
however peds, allegedly, increase your ability with disproportionately low effort. I think it’s that perception that gives people pause about players using peds.
also, there are some health risks to gaining that way, and it night be considered unfair to have to compete against someone willing to sacrifice their long term health or well being.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 11:20 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I don't think he's talking about peds specifically.
he’s talking about comparing players that were injured before a particular medical procedure was invented that would’ve extended their career in today’s time. But I’m not sure that fits here since everything I’ve read says that koufax suffered from severe arthritis in his elbow. I don’t think they could really fix that nowadays.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I agree...
I’m just wondering if we shouldn’t compare old time pitchers (like Koufax) to post-TJ pitchers. A third of Smoltz’s career WAR came post TJ, for example.
Sign Roy O
you also run into the problem of pitcher usage patterns from the other direction
starters could be more valuable in koufax’s time because they made more starts and pitched more innings.
Why not have an issue
with lasik surgery that can actually improve your natural visual acuity? Shouldn’t that be an issue?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 11, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I think that's mostly accepted because, so far as I know, you can't be given exceptional eyesight through lasik.
the best they can give you is 20 20 right?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 11, 2012 1:55 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Nope what?
Nope they can’t do better, or nope they can?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 11, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry.
Yes it can be better. But it’s not really “they” it’s your healing ability, I think. After mine, I was 20/15 and know another friend that is 20/15. Statistically, I think it is rare though.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
that's a difficult game to play. there's no way of knowing if somebody comes back at full strength.
i’m leery of hypothesizing results in counterfactual scenarios as a basis for HOF admission.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I thought that koufax's problem was arthritis, not TJ?
the odds of him coming back at all were nil.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Do you then go back to every post-TJ HOF pitcher and deduct everything after the surgery?
because otherwise it’s just not fair.
Sign Roy O
hardly. there are so many variables to correct for
And not an obviously fair way to accommodate for them.
Isn’t it unfair that babe ruth never had to face an african-american pitcher? Isn’t it unfair that stan musial had to go to war? Isn’t it unfair that honus wagner didn’t get to face a diluted league in which there we’re 30 teams? Isn’t it unfair that albert pujols can fly to any game anywhere and rogers hornsby had to take trains and buses and show up exhausted? Isn’t it unfair that jim edmonds benefits from excellent physical trainers and nutritionists that willie mays never had?
There’s no obvious way to tell exactly how good a historical player would have been if modern surgery had existed. Plenty of modern players get injured, have surgery, and never really play well again. So, assuming dizzy dean or sandy koufax would have come back at 100 percent injects other uncertainty into the system. Guesswork about how somebody might have done, had things been different, is no principled system.
If there is a principled system for comparing unlike scenarios (e.g., park factors), I’m willing to entertain it. But I don’t see how you could do anything but guess about what older players would have done if they’d had access to modern medicine.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2012 12:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Babe Ruth didn't have to face Latinos either.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Or anybody
that threw a 87 mph slider.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
that's exactly my point
he got the koufax treatment, without the justification. kirby might have had a few more good years, but IMO it still wouldnt have made him HOF material
no, it's not your point. my point was that koufax's admission seems valid - not because he might have done better, if he'd played longer
but because his play during his short career was amazing.
i’m not engaging in speculation about how koufax or kirby would have done if they’d played longer.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
im pretty sure i know what my point is
i never said koufax wasnt HOF material. in fact, i think he is. i said it was wrong in pucketts case and it does set a precedent because we are using his career as a measuring stick for future voting which i believe is invalid because of the extenuating circumstances by which he retired
Minority here,
but I still question Koufax getting in. Still on the fence personally, along with Dizzy and a few others. Half of his career was very “meh.”
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 7:30 AM EST up reply actions
I am really not sure how you can say Koufax is not a surefire HOF.
He did have a short career, however he was fucking amazing in his time. For instance he threw, 2,342.1 IP in 12 seasons.
Chris Carpenter, who to be fair has been in some arm trouble, has thrown 2,202.1 IP in his 15-year career.
Now i’m not saying that to support Carp in the Hall, but think of it this way. If Carp had a 3.00 career ERA to this point with the same injuries, nobody would question him getting in the Hall.
Well Koufax has a 2.76 career ERA and has thrown more innings than Carp now. The short career thing is nothing for me because of the sheer amount of innings he threw.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Agree
.300 hitter + 6 gold gloves + great catch in WS + went blind = first ballot HOFer
by olddomination on Jan 11, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
There's also Puckett's game 6 walk-off homer.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
there's also his well documented history of being a POS
so much for being the hall of moral and upstanding men.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Yeah, I heard that about him
when he was elected, but it was kinda glossed over with the whole “going blind” thing. To me that made him no less of a dickhead.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
I think that was blown, oh, about 80 years ago
Kirby Puckett probably isn’t even in the HoF’s top quartile of miserable human beings.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
oh man, i forgot about all of this.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
It never has been.
Which makes the sportswriters sudden instance to block out all liars and cheaters perplexing since a lot of the HOFs are liars and cheaters without the opportunity of steroids.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
wow...
nothing like scoring two points in a playoff game to catapult an offensive coordinator to head coach…
/handeggttalk
Sign Roy O
whatever it takes
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
jim edmonds is a hall of famer. period.
to me it’s just that easy.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:07 PM EST reply actions
Oh
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
go away.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Heyman tweets that the Reds have signed Ryan Madson.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
ah shit
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
obviously I disagree
please don’t passive aggressively disagree ;)
would like to hear your opinion/side of the story
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
we don't know how high they will up the payroll
if it were for just a year or two, I think it could be good. he’s a great player.
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard it's a one-year deal.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
sorry I am approaching this conversation in reverse chronological order
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
this
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
they still might
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
agreed.
I hope its for big big money. The Reds aren’t a team that should be spending big money on a closer….hopefully this hinders their chances of retaining Philli……………………..aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh crap! 1 year?! Nevermind. Good deal, Reds.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
wow they got him on a one year deal
JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
hearing, madson deal is for 1 year. good deal for #reds. and gives madson chance to rack up saves for very good team.
Rotation is Cueto, Latos, Arroyo, Bailey......Chapman?
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Leake...
Chapman is going yo-yo between Louisville, the bullpen, and the DL again. LeCure is going to be the sixth stater.
They’re going to have all kinds of ugliness in the rotation again this year.
Sign Roy O
Oh I forgot about the cheap t-shirt stealer
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
their rotation sucks.
and their offense will only take them so far. 85 wins, finish 6 back of the cardinals and 2 back of the WC.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know how they can just hand Arroyo a spot in the rotation...
no matter how much he’s getting paid. Sign Maholm, trade for Lowe, something…
Sign Roy O
didn't Maholm already sign with the Cubs?
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Signed today.
And Batista off the market too. So sorry, Reds.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
stop giving them suggestions.
let them throw arroyo in there.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Their rotation is a touch above average.
I think saying it sucks is a little unfair. They also might now have the best bullpen in the NL outside of Atlanta.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
madson could have had 4/44 early on
and now he ends up with a one year deal. nice job boras. being a greedy bastard could have cost his client like 30 million.
this wasn't boras's fault.
The Phil’s owner vetoed the deal.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Bob Nightengale @BNightengale
Madson guaranteed only one year by #Reds in excess of $10 mill #mlb
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough
by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
lololololololol
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
yeah thats what i would expect
he almost got 4 years @11 per year, if its just a one year deal there’s no way it would be less than 11
This pushes their payroll to $90 million...
which is pretty surprising. The owner drew such a hard line at $80 million last year Walt had to extend Arroyo just to free up $6 million.
Sign Roy O
seems like $10m to madson is a terrible way to
Fix what ails the reds. They have a replacement value LF and their starting pitching depth has evaporated.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2012 12:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed...
they really need a starter. As for the OF, I think I’d be willing to just go with Heisey.
Sign Roy O
Didn't Heisey put up like 4 WAR last year or something out of nowhere?
I think they’ll be cromulent in the OF. They’re just a bit lacking in guys who profile much better than average, outside of Phillips, Latos, Bruce and Votto.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
nein. 1.6.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2012 4:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Actually
I think the agent has to bear some responsibility for this. Madson can only look at a one-year deal as something of a failure. And Boras is famous for having his players hold out. They are going to punt this year, and try for more bucks next year. Not a bad strategy, but it feels like “Boras Fail” to me.
Sounds like it's 1 year, $10 million
Nice pickup for the Reds, I’d say. Expensive for a reliever, but he’s a good one and it’s only one year.
LOL PHILLIES
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Lol Madson
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 11, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
2.25 FIP last year for 1.7 WAR
.315 BABIP against
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 11, 2012 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
not a bad player
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 11, 2012 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
he's probably not gonna repeat that
but I was lolling him for not accepting the Phillies offer.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 11, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure it was never offered to him.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
Fun fact by the way.
His wife is sister (I think) to my neighbor. They are related in some way basically. I’ve met him at their house before. He’s fucking huge. Nice guy too.
He told me he rooted for the Cardinals after the Phillies. Hell, my dad, me and him were talking about the Cardinals prospects that year (Don’t remember the year).
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
HIS WIFE IS HIS SISTER?! NO WAY!
/tryingtogetthisrumorstarted
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
it's not like he was chopped liver before that
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 11, 2012 1:53 AM EST up reply actions
On the subject of Cardinas and the HoF, how about Dave Duncan?
And no, I’m not just saying this because he’s been in the news or because Buster Olney said Duncan should go to the HoF today.
Consider the pitchers whose careers were revitalized under his watch: Dave Stewart, Dennis Eckersley, Mike Moore, Kent Bottenfield, Darryl Kile, Woody Williams, Jason Marquis, Jeff Suppan, Chris Carpenter, Joel Piniero, Ryan Franklin, Russ Springer & Kyle Lohse.
And I would argue, he squeezed seasons of improbable productivity out of Bud Smith, Jason Simmontacchi, Garret Stephenson, and Braden Looper.
Plus Matt Morris was much better in St. Louis than out.
by dennet on Jan 10, 2012 11:27 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think Dave Duncan belongs in the Hall of Fame.
I’m sure there are several other coaches that deserve it as well.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Also,
If Tim McCarver gets in for his broadcasting abilities, Duncan should be in for his coaching abilities. (This argument works for hundreds and hundreds of people)
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure talent had more to do with it
then coaching. Duncan didn’t magically turn these guys into Cy Young. If Duncan’s coaching was so great then why didn’t it “stick” with some pitchers more then a season or after they left the organization?
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 7:36 AM EST up reply actions
that seems like an argument that it was coaching more than talent.
if Duncan didn’t have a positive effect on their pitching, wouldn’t their improved performance have continued after leaving Dunc’s tutilage?
I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just not sure I understand what you’re saying.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Ok.
A pitcher doesn’t immediately “forget” what he was taught as soon as he leaves the organization. Besides, all teams have pitching coaches. Duncan really can’t be saying anything much different then others “First pitch strikes, down in the zone, you have fielders behind you let them help you, don’t walk anyone.”
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, but
When a normal human says that, it is easy to ignore.
When Obi-Wan Duncan says it with a certain wave of his hand, well, that’s another thing entirely. . .
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Pitcher: Let me strike out more batters.
Duncan: You don’t need to strike out more batters.
Pitcher:.. I don’t need to strike out more batters.
Duncan: Those aren’t the outs you’re looking for.
Pitcher: These aren’t the outs I’m looking for.
Duncan: You can go about your ground balls.
Pitcher: … I can go about my ground balls.
Duncan: Move along.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 14 recs
I wish I could rec this
10 times myself. Well done Matty!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
mobile rec
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 11, 2012 1:55 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I think it's also been established from various sources
that Duncan’s gameplanning for pitchers is far more thorough than most other pitching coaches. That is the sort of thing that could be lost immediately when a pitcher leaves.
If Tim McCarver gets in for his broadcasting abilities
surely I get in for my taking-a-shit-and-brushing-my-teeth abilities?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
looking way down the line
if mcgwire gets snubbed, and he is a hitting coach for a long time, he may get a second chance and they let him in as a hitting coach
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 11:29 PM EST reply actions
I would be for this
I don’t want him in the HoF as a player but if he keeps having great success as a hitting coach then sure. Although I doubt there are many hitting coaches in the HoF.
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 11, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
I was thinking it would be a back door for him getting in
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 11, 2012 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Nobody has gone in as a hitting coach.
Or pitching coach.
I could see that if his coaching career goes well, it may make more people forgive him, and perhaps voting him in as a player before his eligibility is up.
by Cheeseballs on Jan 11, 2012 12:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why don't you want him in as a player?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting thought.
From my ideal version of what the Hall of Fame is (i.e. not even close to what it currently is), Edmonds would be a borderline candidate and get in. However, in the current form, he should be a shoe-in.
Any chance Edmonds gets anything close to getting accused of steroids? I can’t think of anything that sportswriters would use against him. Consistent homers, didn’t look like he took steroids. He could get in due to being clean – probably. (He could be dirty too – Hence let every fucking steroid user in)
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
Side note:
I wouldn’t compare Puckett to Edmonds if you want Edmonds to get in. Cause… you know… Puckett is pretty obviously not a Hall-of-Fame caliber player if you look at the stats.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
he played with mcgwire, which will be enough for columnists with two sentences to spare on edmonds to use one of them to say,
“and he played with big mac………”
at the same time, jeff bagwell is being tarred with the steroid-era brush for the same stupid reason, but he’s also moving in a way that’s consistent with how you’d expect a brilliant but not-immediately-obvious player to sneak toward induction. so I’m not sure how damaging it would ultimately be.
I think Edmonds' peak seasons put him over the top in my HOF
Although in this era there’s not much value in a high peak, playoff odds wise, I still think it has some instrinstic value due to its scarcity.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 11, 2012 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah his 5 best seasons were on average 6.9 fWAR.
That’s right in line with other Hall of Famers i believe.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
Although in this era there’s not much value in a high peak, playoff odds wise
explain?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
here
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=223678890376
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 12, 2012 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
dave duncan nostalgic twinge #1
I kind of wish duncan were still around so that the cardinals picking up francisco cordero and turning him into a late-innings sinker specialist were a plausible outcome of the ryan madson signing.
I wanted him to be here when Miller and Martinez make it to the club.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
Good deal for reds
jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
Ryan Madson deal is for $8.5M for one year, source says
Nightengale reported excess of 10 but looks like he was wrong yet again. 8.5 for one year is pretty good for the Reds.
they got lucky they got him after sinking all that money into chapman
I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 11, 2012 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Wow, that's a really good sign.
I thought they’d end up with Cordero again but this really makes sense for them.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Late night trivia: What Hall of Fame player has 28 career homers in 11,256 plate appearances?
For the record, that’s one homer every 402 plate appearances.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
Ozzie?
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 11, 2012 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
Wow that's REALLY close.
He had 10,778 plate appearances.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 2:22 AM EST up reply actions
ozzie smith would have been my guess as well.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Yes that is the correct answer.
Shorstop easily wins for best names in the Hall of Fame: Rabbit, Pee Wee, Arky, Hughie, Honus, and Robin.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 2:32 AM EST up reply actions
Old names are the best
Try going to FanGraphs and just searching random cool words. Like I just searched “shadow,” and sure enough:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1010584&position=P
MameshibaSocks WebBlowhard
Wait no, searching that on FanGraphs actually pulls up the SBN profile of a VEB user at random.
It's an untapped goldmine of hilarity, I tells ya
Redleg Snyder: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1012255&position=OF
Holly Hollingshead: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1005959&position=OF
Count Sensenderfer (lolwut): http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1011746&position=OF
Barrett: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1000590&position=OF
Terry: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1012925&position=1B/OF
Foghorn Bradley: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1001305&position=P
leader in the masturbation euphemism clubhouse
by DanUpBaby on Jan 11, 2012 3:22 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Ol' One Arm Daily
at age 36 he was 12.9 bWAR!!! PEDs?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
True or False:
People used to have good nicknames because no one cared about your feelings.
Sign Roy O
Very true.
My hometown has some old men with some GREAT nicknames, but sadly they’re all dying off.
Paintbrush, Ain’tGot, Pop(given to him because he has a speech impairment and cant say his own name), Rusty, Dusty, Frog, RedBuck and the list goes on and on.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Paintbrush and Ain'tGot are awesome.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Seriously
they’re two nicknames for the same guy. He responds to both. He’s about 80.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Had a friend we called:
“1 legged Johnny” because, well, his name was johnny and he had one leg. He walked the nighborhood a lot. We would stop next to him, steal his crutch and then drive away. Good times.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Congratulations!
You are now eliginle for baseball’s HoF!
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
He lost the leg when his brother shot him over a woman.
True story. They lived 2 houses away from each other and never, ever talked.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
That's badass!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Let me know how
Hell feels when you get there…
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Me and Ty Cobb throwing the ole ball around.
Could be worse.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Kirby Puckett could join in...
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Ty and me would make faces at him, since Kirby can't see us.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Ty would definitely
make faces at him.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Ty would chase him off with a firearm. . .
given his ethnicity.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Is...is this hell?
No. It’s Detroit.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
by Hootie Who on Jan 11, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One more
Good friend is named “Stacey” but being a boy he thought it was girly. We started calling him “Ralph” and it has stuck for 30 years. He answers to Ralph as natural as you or I would our given names.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Dude, what?
Where are you from, and why is it the nickname capitol of the world?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 11, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Son, don't go questioning Pope County.
You’ll be sorry you did.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Also my great-grandfather went by Johnny Green
even though his given name was Raymond Davis.
/PopeCounty4Life
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I work at a pretty large company
Yesterday I came across Merlin Mooseman
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 11, 2012 8:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was always fond of Johnny Leonard Roosevelt Martin's nicknames
Pepper and “The Wild Horse of the Osage”.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
peppermartin should add "The Wild Horse of the Osage" to his sig
11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 11, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
He's the best catcher out there who's ever cut his fingers off with a table saw
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Jan 11, 2012 8:06 AM EST up reply actions
I'd be willing to bet
that he has more fingers cut off with a saw than any other player of the 2000s. HOF!
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
I'M SO READY FOR RB'S DRAFT PREVIEWS!!!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 11, 2012 8:59 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Big local news
hope they doubled the green fees on the SOB
(It’s a 3 paragraph story about Pujols playing a round of golf at Dalhousie in Cape. I’d say this is why he (allegedly) owns an empty lot there.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Pujols looks fat in that picture
/bitter ex girlfriend
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 11, 2012 9:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
He has been getting bigger
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 11, 2012 11:18 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That would have been a rec'able comment
if it were from Boog or Spants.
Speaking of Spants, where’s she been lately? And where the hell is Y2S?
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Y2S is on hiatus
it’ll be a month tomorrow. spants was on here last night, in fact, she commented in this post.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Ahh thanks.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
i hope he returns soon.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Hands full with the baby.
Until I learned of the Android app, I was gone for awhile.
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 11, 2012 1:36 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
reading to your kids is good
When they are really little, it doesn’t matter what you read. Babies just like to hear your voice. I used to read the cardinals game recaps to my kids when they were little. You’ll have to censor some a lot of VEB, but I’m sure mini spants would like it.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
I'm imagining long 10 minute moments of silence after a Erriot.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I read to her and talk to her all day.
But there are a lot of comments in these threads. I think I’d lose my voice!
2011 - Year of Our Berk
by spants on Jan 11, 2012 11:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
he and PJ got in a fight or something.
y2s hasn’t been around since.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Jan 11, 2012 1:52 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I live not too far away from there and I'm
reasonably sure that you have to own property on the course in order to play it.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Or have a gazillion dollars. . .
and more fame than anyone who has ever played the course.
That probably works well as a Plan B.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
how far?
I live ~20 miles southwest of there
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Metropolis Illinois
I duck hunt at Olive Branch.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
If Jim Edmonds is ever elected to the HOF and as a Cardinal
I want the picture for this post to be the inspiration for the sculpture outside Busch.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jan 11, 2012 10:03 AM EST reply actions
i agree. that beautiful backswing.
or this!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Or my avatar pic.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
This!
When I think of Jimmy, I think of him laying it out to make an amazing catch.
Maybe its because his bat was overshadowed by Mac and Pujols.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
But...but...
that back swing is so preeeetty!
I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.
discuss something, VEB!
i’m bored.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:43 AM EST reply actions
Here's a discussion-starter
What would VEB have thought if the Cardinals had signed Madson to the same contract the Reds signed him to?
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
lost its collective shit.
the same people that are calling it a good signing for the reds are the people that would be tar and feathering mo if he signed madson to that deal.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure that would happen tbh
$8m is pretty fair for a guy who’s a top-20-odd reliever. He’s not a guy we need, but I can’t see any better uses of a random $8m (except maybe somehow making Westbrook go away and getting Oswalt).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Assuming we had the money, I'd be okay with it
I also assume he would replace Kyle McClellan, which would be pretty nice. But it probably wouldn’t be worth the 8 million to do so…
i don't think we should ever pay any reliever $8M
i’m too lazy to look it up, but on a per WAR basis i think there’s probably less than five reliever seasons the past 20 years that have been worth $8M
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
fair enough.
still don’t think we should ever (especially not right now) pay $8M for a reliever.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
i agree.
if a reliever is ever worth 2-3 wins, hopefully we are underpaying for his performance that year.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Too bad it's
so hard to predict which relievers that will be.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 11, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Pissed that they didn't use that money on Oswalt...
also, there’s talk of an “option.” If it’s a player option, then this deal is somewhat less favorable for the Reds.
Sign Roy O
haven't we agreed on the fact that money isn't the hangup with oswalt?
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
$8M on a reliever -- this is an overpay.
I would not have been pleased.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
very similar to my feelings.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Overpay for us, but not an overpay for them
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
wat
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
How so?
I mean, why is it not an overpay for the Reds? Is their bullpen in tatters or something? I am asking out of ignorance, not challenging your assertion necessarily.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
They're projected as what, an 87 win team right now? An additional win or 1.5 wins is huge for them
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Oh dear...
look at their roster. Even signing Madsen dos not get them a bullpen that’s close to ours.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Yeah...
Based on comparing the ZiPS forecast of our two bullpens I’m not seeing where the Reds come up short of us.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
They might have the best bullpen in baseball...
at this point. Marshall/Madson is just as good as Venters/Kimbrel.
Sign Roy O
I think Madson is great.
If Chapman is in the bullpen and healthy, he can be unhittable, but Masset to me just isn’ that scary.
I think our pen, while not quite as dominant in the back end as theirs, is much deeper with very very good talent. I’m hoping Sanchez finds his control and becomes a dominant set-up man. He’ls filthy. Scrabble is really really tough agains lefties. Motte is a very serviceable closer. Lynn (if in the pen), is pretty nasty when he’s throwing that sinking fastball at 96 mph. Salas is every bit as good as Masset, and if you ask me, he’s our 4th best reliever.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Ours is also hella cheaper.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I suppose we have more depth...
but we don’t have anyone as good as Madson/Marshall. And Dusty will have every incentive to pitch those guys a lot given that they will leave the team after 2012.
Sign Roy O
The Reds pen is better than ours
and to be honest I’d say it’s not even that close.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 11, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
$8M is the cost for a marginal win for the Reds?
I strongly disagree.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Well, let's say he's a 1.5 WAR to 1.7 WAR player next year
That’s about $7-7.5M in base value, just from FA WAR/$ evaluations.
There’s almost always a premium for elite closers
And they’re right in the wheelhouse to pay more for a marginal win
I don’t know if he’s replacing a replacement-level guy or a .5WAR guy or whatever, and that’s factored in, but I don’t see this as an overpay at all. All said in done, it’s about market value for them
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
market value's probably the worst choice of words
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Well, I guess I'd start by quibbling that Madson isn't a 1.5-1.7 WAR player
or at least we shouldn’t project a 31 year old reliever that way (read: matching his career year). Also, I don’t know that I’d advocate for a team to pay a premium for elite closers because there’s a unexplainable built-in cost. That sounds like a tradition argument (elite closers always cost more) than a logical one.
The math doesn’t really add up to me.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
what he said.
where did this “premium for elite closers” bullshit come in?
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
...are you serious?
I’m not advocating for it either, but it happens very, very commonly. Very, very rarely are elite closers even close to $4.5M/WAR or whatever
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
that doesn't mean we should change the criteria for them.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
What criteria are we changing?
Given the market and their spot on the marginal win curve, I don’t think it’s an overpay at all
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
they're paying him to be a 1.9 WAR player.
he’ll have to be damned good to even touch 1 WAR.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Well luckily, he IS damned good, so he's a good bet to exceed 1 WAR
Secondly, they are not paying him to be a 1.9WAR player. They are paying to be a 1.9 WAR player assuming $4.5M/WAR, which doesn’t hold because teams are likely to pay more for a player when they are in the 85-90 win range
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
ZiPS has him as a 1.3 WAR pitcher based on FIP.
If you value relievers with leveraging and things of that nature, you could argue that he’s worth more. As a 1.3 WAR pitcher, that’s a $6.5M/WAR contract. Not good, imo.
If I was a fan of the Reds, I’d rather see them find a way to put that $8M towards left field than a closer.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I think we're talking past each other here
If the Cardinals paid out $6.5M/WAR, given our replacements and our relative comfort on the marginal win curve, I would be neutral at best and probably unhappy.
The Reds, however, are in the marginal win curve’s wheelhouse and, given the playoff probability added there, are in a better position to give that sort of contract to Madson
Is it a great move? No. But it’s not a significant overpay for them.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Stupid
Oswalt’s likely three times as valuable for the same price.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 12, 2012 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
nice to meet you, hr!
what do you do for a living?
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Based out of a baseball stadium
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
with Harold Reynolds
(making the human resources portion of this sub-thread even funnier)
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
I'm gonna pimp this in VEB and I don't think you guys will mind terribly
There’s a very good University of Illinois-based SB Nation blog out there that seems to be struggling for any sort of traffic. It’s called Hail to the Orange, and the author is a pretty good writer that presents some excellent articles. If there are any other Illini fans here, go check it out!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Is it bad that I live
in Champaign, grew up a few miles from Memorial Stadium, have a diehard Illini fan for a father but I don’t give a shit about their varsity athletics?
Club sports on the other hand..
by openside on Jan 11, 2012 11:11 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yes.
Yes it is bad…
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Fuck. I guess you're right.
I’ll go check it out. But I’m still mad they cut the Zooker loose.
by openside on Jan 11, 2012 11:27 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
guy was a great recruiter
Just a really bad coach. He had the same problem at Florida.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
The guy was entertaining as hell.
The scurrying around town, the boating and water skiing recreation videos that pop up on the B1G Network, all awesome. I always wished he wore a cape on the sideline, you never knew if he was a dangerous idiot or the smartest guy in the room.
And his teams were fine when they had a feature back.
by openside on Jan 11, 2012 11:44 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yesterday I said I don't think JEd
would get voted in, but if I had my way the HOF would be full of iconic players and events.
Edmonds would be there. He provided thrilling play after thrilling play, not to mention a beautiful uppercut swing.
Plus, his acquisition kicked off The Modern Cardinal Age™
by openside on Jan 11, 2012 11:17 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I go there on occasion.
Good blog, very good blog. I had to check it out last night after the Ohio State game.
I would post there but I haven’t been able to watch more than half of an Illinois basketball game this year since they are never on out here in the PacNW.
by mattisnotfrench on Jan 11, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
If you guys wanna see something awesome
check out this poem on Baseball Think Factory: David Brazeal’s “The Peña”
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
O/T
How the in the Hell is Fringe NOT getting good ratings? That’s the best SciFi show I’ve ever watched! The writing is good, the plotlines are pretty good, and dear god the actress that playes Olivia is H.O.T. What else do people need?
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Really?
That sucks because I love it…. I’m all sad now because I just realized I must have terrible taste in TV….
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
If some dude on the internet says it, it must be true
If I were you I’d just accept it and move on.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
But,,, but.... but...
it wasn’t blockquoted!
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
SciFi is difficult to sell to the masses, I think.
I don’t think it’s very good show. But I didn’t like X Files either. I’m more of a Farscape and Firefly type.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 11, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Also, disagree on Anna Torv
Yvonne Strahovski, otoh….
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Who is this Yvonne of which you speak?
And them’s fighting words!!! Anna Torv have a very very good relationship. She really isn’t aware of it, but we’ve been dating for quite a while now.
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Yvonne is Sarah Walker on "Chuck"
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
She is pretty hot..
No Anna Torv, but still hot..
Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.
Because people watch it. . .
on HuLu or Roku or on-line?
Or does that show up in the Nielsen’s now?
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 11:26 AM EST reply actions
reply fail?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 11, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Except when it helps my argument....
I’ve never been a big fan of the argument that, “If Player X is a Hall-of-Famer, then Player Y is should be, too,” but Puckett’s induction should cause voters to give Jim Edmonds serious consideration.
Puckett got in for all the wrong reasons (sympathy for the shortened career, .318 career .AVG) at a time when the voters understanding of advanced metrics was basically nil.
Edmonds has a borderline case, but Puckett’s induction should be irrelevant to the argument. What really hurts Jimmy is that he wasn’t an everyday player until age 24 and had trouble staying healthy in Anaheim, thus all of his counting stats are low – especially relative to contemporaries. I think he’ll spend 15 years on the ballot without coming close (ala Dale Murphy)…the Veteran’s Committee is probably his only chance.
Edmonds case is much better than Murhpy's
Higher OPS+, more Gold Gloves, defensive metrics to back up the Gold Gloves, spent whole career as a CF, etc.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 11, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
No doubt Edmonds has a better case
but he (and Walker) are the closest comps on the current ballot
Edmonds case is a nuanced one that requires voters to look past his traditional stash totals they’re so used to worshiping and grasp his mix of defense, power, and on base ability.
I’m not holding my breath.
bgh's point was that center field is woefully underrepresented.
and that kirby puckett likely got in because he played center field and won a bunch of gold gloves there (which he shouldn’t have, which bgh also points out). point being, jim edmonds also played center field there, also won a bunch of gold gloves (and unlike puckett, deserved them), and played vastly superior offense.
If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 11, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I view Santo and Puckett as hopefully opening the door for more third basemen and center fielders, because these positions are underrepresented in the HOF.
I think they are underrepresented because voters view third basemen through the prism of first basemen numbers and view center fielders through the prism of corner outfielder numbers. Edmonds being a great example of a player who was incredibly good as a center fielder defensively and very good at hitting. I would also hold up Scott Rolen and Ken Boyer as third basemen worthy of serious HOF consideration.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What am I, a charity???
I have to put food on the table for my family, I can’t afford hand-outs of time and effort for you people.
"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"
by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Edmonds' key stats vs. selected Hall of Famers
For what it’s worth:
Player WAR BA OBP SLG OPS
Orlando Cepeda 46.8 .297 .350 .499 .849
Tony Perez 50.5 .279 .341 .463 .804
Andre Dawson 57.0 .279 .323 .482 .806
Kirby Puckett 44.8 .318 .360 .477 .837
Billy Williams 57.2 .290 .361 .492 .853
Dave Winfield 59.7 .283 .353 .475 .827
Eddie Murray 66.7 .287 .359 .476 .836
Carlton Fisk 67.3 .269 .341 .457 .797
Ernie Lombardi 39.0 .306 .358 .460 .818
Ryne Sandberg 62.0 .285 .344 .452 .795
Bobby Doerr 47.7 .288 .362 .461 .823
Roberto Alomar 63.5 .300 .371 .443 .814
Pie Traynor 37.1 .320 .362 .435 .797
Jim Rice 41.5 .298 .352 .502 .854
Jim Edmonds 68.0 .284 .376 .527 .903
Note that Edmonds ranks highest in every category but batting avg.
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 11, 2012 1:23 PM EST reply actions
I'd have to say, if i were a voter, more than half of your list wouldn't be in the HOF.
Well I guess if I had 3,000 votes. (Cepeda, Perez, Dawson, Puckett, Lombardi, Murray, Doerr, Traynor, Rice if you’re curious – Note that I would rather too few than too many get in)
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 11, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
and the list goes on...
Player WAR BA OBP SLG OPS
Gary Carter 66.3 .262 .335 .439 .773
Bill Mazeroski 26.9 .260 .299 .367 .667
Nellie Fox 44.4 .288 .348 .363 .710
Phil Rizzuto 41.8 .273 .351 .355 .706
Travis Jackson 43.3 .291 .337 .433 .770
Ozzie Smith 64.6 .262 .337 .328 .666
Roy Campanella 36.2 .276 .360 .500 .860
Lloyd Waner 24.3 .316 .353 .393 .747
Sam Rice 51.1 .322 .374 .427 .801
Ed Roush 46.5 .323 .369 .446 .815
Max Carey 50.6 .285 .361 .386 .747
Freddie Lindstrom 29.2 .311 .351 .449 .800
Billy Herman 55.6 .304 .367 .407 .774
Jim Edmonds 68.0 .284 .376 .527 .903
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 11, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'd try to find like players by position and include counting stats.
3,000 hits, 2,000 hits, 400 homers, 500 homers, etc. are important benchmarks that are not included in your analysis. I’d be interested in seeing a comparison that included more counting stats and was filtered by position.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Total hits, HRs, etc. can be deceiving.
Examples: Eddie Murray got into the Hall primarily on the strength of his 500 HR and 3000 H. However, they were accumulated over a long career in which he was never a particularly dominant player. Another case in point, Robin Yount collected 3000 hits, but he only had one truly dominate season. He was a very good player for 20 years, but not a great one. Longevity does not always equal greatness.
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 11, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
Same here.
But the Hall is what it is, and Edmonds is as good as or better than all of the above HOFers. I’d probably vote for him. He was an impact player, always one of the 2 or 3 best players on his teams (including 2 that went to the WS), top ten in WAR 6 times, top ten in OBP, SLG & OPS 3 times each, undeniably great defensive CF.
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 11, 2012 8:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, meant to reply to stlcardsfan4.
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 11, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Make no mistake: I agree Edmonds should most definitely get in the Hall of Fame.
I, for whatever, reason think he won’t get in though.
President of the Tyler Greene fanclub - Wikipedia Proof, Tumblr Page, and finally Baseball-reference
Twitter
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 12, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
I think you're right.
Don’t know what it is about him, but you never hear his name mentioned as a potential HOFer, outside of this forum. A lot will depend on how strong a field he’s up against when he becomes eligible – not just on the first ballot, but ensuing ones as well. Then again, you never know, if he’s up against several guys who are suspected of PED usage it could increase his chances of getting in.
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 12, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting article on ups & downs of players' HOF vote % through the years...
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2012/01/09/a-long-hall-of-fame-review/
"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006
by StLouisSwifties on Jan 12, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
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