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St. Louis Cardinals Hall of Fame Futures: Mark McGwire Sinks, Jim Edmonds Still Awesome

Barry Larkin is a Hall of Famer, and it wasn't even all that difficult—the Cincinnati Reds shortstop got votes from 86 percent of the BBWAA's notoriously eccentric voters in spite of his 939 career walks. There was a non-zero chance of Larkin getting the Tim Raines treatment when he first hit the ballot; he was frequently injured and by the end of his career felt like a part-time player even when he wasn't, and a lot of his value came from things BBWAA voters aren't quite known to value. But apparently there was enough of a difference between Larkin's last five seasons as a 95 OPS+, 95-games guy and Alan Trammell's last six seasons as a 94 OPS+, 76-games guy to keep Larkin out of the Raines Zone and Trammell in the Trammell Zone.

News was worse for Mark McGwire, who received 19.5% of the vote. It's my understanding that McGwire's admission of steroids use is still simply too much for most writers, who covered his 70-home-run season from about this far away and simply had no way of suspecting anything at the time. (Imagine my surprise when I learned the Shawn Michaels didn't really toss Marty Jannetty through that window during Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake's interview segment.)

I've run out of things to say about Mark McGwire's Hall of Fame candidacy. A consistent stance against the use of performance-enhancing drugs in sports is reasonable, and a desire for a Hall of Fame boycott that flows from that is plausible to me, if impossible to enforce. But the turn the BBWAA as a group of writers has made in that direction from its near-unanimous adulation of the late 90s is embarrassing—at best it's an admission from the people who wrote those pieces that they lacked either the desire or the ability to ask some obvious questions that they now claim to be fundamentally important to our understanding of baseball; at its worst it's a crass move toward the allegorical moralizing that's animated bad baseball writing for 150 years.

I'd vote for him. That was baseball, and we loved it, and I want the people who come to Cooperstown after I'm dead to remember how much we loved it.

Other Cardinals passing and approaching the Hall of Fame window:

Juan Gonzalez (first year on ballot; 4.0%): There's a universe where Juan Gonzalez hit 500 home runs and retired as a beloved Cardinal vet in the Reggie Sanders-Larry Walker-Lance Berkman tradition, but I'm not sure I want to have lived in it.

Star-divide

Brian Jordan (first year on ballot; 0.0%): Not even a sympathy vote for Brian Jordan, who slugged .455 over 15 seasons, was very popular in two cities, and has a career home run-interception ratio of 36.8? Jordan has 162 fielding runs as a right fielder according to Total Zone, which is neat and probably not so accurate.

Lee Smith (10th year on ballot; 50.6%):

Possible Home Run Record Analogues for Lee Smith: A Mini-Essay

Roger Connor: Roger Connor was the last guy who held the all-time home run record before anybody cared about it—he retired in 1897, as a member of the incredibly terrible St. Louis Proto-Cardinals, with 138.

While nobody was particularly impressed about that at the time it's probably inaccurate to say he would have been forgotten without Babe Ruth; Ruth making home runs a thing certainly helped Connor out, but it didn't roll out much carpet in Cooperstown—he still didn't get into the Hall of Fame until the 1970s, 30 years after 1880s nemesis Dan Brouthers (106 home runs) managed the trick. Anyway, neither guy works for Smith; he's earned his fame in part as a function of Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera passing him by, but saves were already a thing when Lee Smith began accumulating them.

The save equivalent to Roger Connor is probably Johnny Murphy or Firpo Marberry, who each earned 100 saves and change before Lee Smith had quite finished walking very slowly out to the mound for the first time.

Ken Williams: One of my favorite Hall of Very Good guys, Ken Williams was one of the first players outside of New York to discover the home run, leading the American League with 39 (and 37 stolen bases) as a St. Louis Brown in 1922. (This means he also got to pull off that more-home-runs-than-an-entire-team trick, since the Indians managed 32.) Williams, like Lee Smith, is not a Hall of Famer, but that's probably because the live ball era—and his career—didn't start until he was 29 years old. If you're a peak guy and your career lacks that throat-clearing build-up of counting stats entirely it's hard to build up a Hall-looking body of work, whether you're qualified or not.

Cy Williams: I think this is as close as we'll get. Cy Williams showed up at the just-about-right moment—he was also pushing 30 at the start of the live ball era, but he was an accumulator and he lasted forever—and retired, in 1930, with 251 home runs, the third most in baseball history. He was only behind Babe Ruth and Rogers Hornsby, two of the very best hitters in the history of baseball.

Rk Player HR From To Age G AB R H BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Babe Ruth 565 1914 1930 19-35 1935 6512 1717 2262 .347 .476 .710 1.186
2 Rogers Hornsby 279 1915 1930 19-34 2027 7558 1483 2737 .362 .436 .582 1.017
3 Cy Williams 251 1912 1930 24-42 2002 6780 1024 1981 .292 .365 .470 .835
4 Ken Williams 196 1915 1929 25-39 1398 4862 860 1552 .319 .393 .530 .924
5 Hack Wilson 193 1923 1930 23-30 910 3332 676 1072 .322 .408 .586 .994

Lee Smith is Cy Williams. He didn't show up at the ideal time for accruing saves—he was a 90-inning guy for a few years in Chicago before that age-36 season where he got 33 saves in 38 innings—but he hit his prime right when saves did, and he lasted forever.

He was a great closer, but he's probably not a Hall of Famer, and his place on the all-time saves list is a historical accident.

Larry Walker (second year on ballot; 22.9%): I think playing at Coors Field at the peak of its absurdity has confused Larry Walker's Hall of Fame candidacy, but I wouldn't say it's hurt it—when you imagine what he'd look like without those Planet Coors numbers, I think it'd be easier to claim they've helped. I don't think the BBWAA would be itching to induct a guy with 2040 "steroid era" hits and 357 sea-level home runs any more than the Walker actually in front of them, and as we move further into the Humidor Era younger sportswriters might look a little less askance than they should at that three-year stretch where he hit .369.

Walker's problem is more conventional than Coors—he's just another guy who did everything right and nothing especially wrong. The BBWAA's much better than it used to be, but they're still a ways from giving an injury-prone slugger huge baserunning and fielding bonuses; without that value he's a borderline case.

Tony Womack (first year on ballot; 0.0%): I liked bgh's post about the 2004 Cardinals rotation a lot. Here's another 2004 Cardinals stat: Tony Womack earned 3.2 of his 1.2 career bWAR that year. Thusly were Tony La Russa and Walt Jocketty rewarded for one of the dumbest attempts to fill a hole at second base ever made by two competent adults.

Jim Edmonds (Eligible 2016):

Previously on Jim Edmonds is a Hall of Famer and I Can't Stop Talking about It: A (Very Long) Guide to Jim Edmonds's Hall of Fame Candidacy; Bert Blyleven and Jim Edmonds; Some Jim Edmonds Novelties.

This was probably bad news: Bernie Williams, the answer to the question, "What would it be like if a less-valuable version of Jim Edmonds played for the Yankees, won a bunch of World Series titles, and played classical guitar?", got just 9.6% of the vote in his first attempt at Cooperstown.

Bernie isn't a perfect traditional-voter candidate himself; he ended his career as a noticeably terrible defender, and a lot of his value was tied up in his .381 on-base percentage. But Jim Edmonds is a Frankenstein's-monster candidate, an all-time-great center field peak grafted onto a Hall of Very Good body and followed up by a career-candidate's run as a part-time player until he was 40.

I'm also not sure how he'll be viewed by the steroid patrol; Edmonds didn't look anything like a steroid user, but his 30-35 peak will set the more sensitive Jeff Bagwell boycotters off, along with his association with Mark McGwire. The thing working most in Edmonds's favor as a Hall of Fame candidate is time. He won't be eligible for another four years, when whatever happens to Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds—and, for that matter, Mark McGwire—will have begun happening.

That's four more years for the BBWAA to come to grips with Edmonds's career, the steroid era, and its own changing demography. Jim Edmonds will need every one.

Scott Rolen (Eligible ???): In his own time Rolen's superstardom seemed better understood by sportswriters than Edmonds's, but it'll be interesting to see whether that's worth more than all the years separating the end of Rolen's career from its peak. Right now Rolen looks a lot like Barry Larkin, without the MVP or the single-team bonus—an injury-prone star who ended his career an injury-prone-but-still-effective role player.

He's a Hall of Famer, but the shape of his career and the Hall of Fame's historical inability to understand third basemen are stacked against his candidacy. A big 2012 would help.

Lance Berkman (Eligible ???): Berkman looked like the perfect Hall of Very Good candidate this time last year, but that was before he had the sixth-best season of his career by bWAR (his best year ever by OPS+) and added 147 hits, 31 home runs, and 94 RBI to his counting stats. Those counting stats will still be a problem, unfortunately; he's 42 home runs from 400 and 178 hits from 2000, and those don't exactly scream Hall of Fame First Baseman anyway.

This is one of the rare cases in which a player's traditional and sabermetric cases for the Hall of Fame align at just-short; his 51.2 bWAR put him, among 1B/COF/DH types, between Jose Cruz and Fred McGriff, in the same zone as guys like Jack Clark, Mark Grace, J.D. Drew, and perennial New York candidates like Don Mattingly and Gil Hodges.

Some of those guys get in—Orlando Cepeda's behind him, along with Jim Rice and the peakier Ralph Kiner—but most of them don't. To be a no-doubt sabermetric candidate he'd probably need two more seasons like the one he just had; to be a no-doubt traditional candidate he'd have to do that, and then something much more interesting than that.

Matt Holliday (Eligible ???): With 30.9 bWAR through his age 31 season, Matt Holliday is well on his way to being Lance Berkman, if things break right.

Edgar Renteria (Eligible after 2026, when he earns his 3000th hit and the Hall of Fame explodes in a fireball): Edgar Renteria 3000 Hit Watch was a great Hall of Fame meme circa 2007; it's cooled off since, along with his bat, but he's still got 2327 of them—about a season's less than Ozzie Smith, if you aren't sufficiently spooked by that yet.

Bonus Candidate: Adam Carpenwright: If you graft Chris Carpenter's Cardinals career onto Adam Wainwright's elbow-surgery stub—the ages work out just right—you get an interesting all-peak Hall of Fame candidate, provided you squint and Chris Carpenter has a few more 15-win seasons. Adam Carpenwright has 20.5 bWAR through his Wainwright seasons, and, even after missing two years in the middle of Carpenter's prime, adds 24.2 more as Carpenter.

That's a short career, but his conventional stats are weirdly impressive—his record's 161-77, which would put him near the top of the career winning percentage chart—and his 24.5 bWAR five-year peak is, at least, better than anything Jack Morris can muster. If you add Jamie Moyer's 37-and-up seasons to that... but I've said too much already.

Comment 1179 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Counting stats rule the Hall.

It’s great to talk about but no way Edmonds gets in. Boy I hope I’m wrong but when time comes they will stack his career counting numbers against other CF’c in the Hall and there will be a “meh” sound heard from the voters. I want to be wrong about this very badly.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 10, 2012 9:13 AM EST reply actions  

unfortunately, this is what I think will happen as well.

it’s too bad, he really should be a sure-fire Hall of Famer.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Gold Gloves are a counting stat

and Jimmy Baseball has 8 of them.

He’s not a no-brainer, but I think his chances are being sold short by a lot of VEB Nation.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

So now a site devoted to metrics is using the Gold Glove as a measure of fielding?

By the way, Palmerio won the Gold Glove while playing only 28 games in the field.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 10, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think anybody's endorsing the GG as meaningful.

But you noted that HOF voters love counting stats (objectively meaningless though they may be) and SCF pointed out that GG is one of the objectively meaningless counting stats they love.

by Pegasus on Jan 10, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

except that Jimmy looked so good getting them

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

one-man web gem factory!

churning them out for our fun and amusement

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, first of all. . .

I don’t represent the site. [Obligatory disclaimer Re: my opinions being my own and not those of VEB, blah, blah, blah]

Second, since when have (advanced) metrics mattered in HoF votes?

Third, what does Rafael Palmeiro’s ridonkulous Gold Glove have anything to do with whether Jim Edmonds is a HoFer? (If anything, having many of the same voters in both shows that fancy things like “stats” have little to do with whether Jimmy Ed will get in the Hall.)

Finally, players with 8+ Gold Gloves at premium defensive positions get in the Hall with far less impressive offensive resumes than Jimmy Baseball. Small sample size, to be sure, but the whole HoF is a small sample size.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

here's hoping

sportscenter web gems also count as a counting stat.

> tebow

by cschepers on Jan 10, 2012 10:32 AM EST via Android app up reply actions   1 recs

Then he's an automatic first ballot

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

What other true center fielders are in the hall?

Kirby Puckett was the last voted in. Other wise there’s DiMaggio, Mays, Mantle, Duke Snyder, are the only other modern era players, and they all played in the first half of the 20th century (Mays excepted)!

And of the above list, Mays was the only defender better than Jimmy, and Jim’s offensive stats

Of course comparing Willie Mays to anybody really isn’t fair to the other guy….

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

you forgot some

Earl Averill is, to me, a good baseline comp for a HOF center fielder. Also, Andre Dawson was a CF until he tore up his knees. Here is a link to a wargraphs comp of those two, Kirby Puckett, Jimmy Edmonds, and Larry Walker: http://tinyurl.com/86emu5f. I believe that both Edmonds and Walker should clearly be in. I also believe that Jimmy will have a better chance because he was a flashier player, and the filter of time is likely to leave voters with fond memories of his highlight-reel catches. That might be enough to get them to seriously consider how good a hitter he was. Further, sabremetrics-types who like peak value will probably make a strong case for him.

by apack on Jan 10, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

A career 133 OPS+

Says Averill belongs better than Puckett…

by DeWitt4Torty on Jan 11, 2012 1:42 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Functionally, Junior Griffey is already in the hall as well

anyone voting against him should have their BWAA credentials revoked.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 10, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

when is he eligible?

’14?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably not

I think voters are going to remember these past 5-7 years more than his peak, which is a shame, and most of his value comes from defense, which is probably unappreciated

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Andruw Jones is a fascinating case to me. . .

I mean, if he was hit by a bus after 2007, he would have retired being eligible for the Hall of Fame, with 368 HRs, a 113 OPS+, 10 Gold Gloves, and a rep as one of the two or three best center fielders ever to play the game, as well as a very rare 50 HR season to his credit. He probably gets into the Sandy Koufax wing of the HoF if that happens.

Now, though, you have a guy who has hit 216/317/422 over his last 1500 ABs, who weighs about 350 pounds and can’t even field the designated hitter position well.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

"Field the DH"

I’m loving that image … of a foul tip rolling away while he’s at bat, and him struggling to bend over to pick it up for the catcher.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he actually has a decent chance

People will point out his all-time defensive excellence, and the fact he was a very good hitter as well. Though I kind of waver on this. At times I think he has less of a chance than Edmonds, at other times more.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, he has come a long way from his bottoming-out a few years ago

He can still hit and field a bit. He’s basically Allen Craig now, only with lower AVG and more walks.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

needs to do more

I value peak and would probably put him in. However, CF defense isn’t terribly well appreciated by the HOF electorate, and it is hard to overlook his dramatic drop-off in performance. I think Edmonds has a better chance right now, but of course Jones has time to recover — if he can manage a few more good years of hitting then he would have a much stronger case.

by apack on Jan 10, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Great write up!

I love the man, rock his jersey, and will probably name my first son Jimmy but there’s no way Jim Edmonds gets in. A lot of voters don’t look for the positives, but rather ammunition against them. And plenty of issues with his candidacy exist. I’m fine with Edmonds not getting in, but will be elated if he somehow does get enough votes.

Rolen was a monster. I just don’t think he stayed healthy enough and produced at a high enough level for long enough.

Now if there was a way just to elect Edmonds’ flair for the dramatic and Rolen’s 3rd to 1st cannon..

by openside on Jan 10, 2012 9:21 AM EST reply actions  

In regards to Mr. Rolen

there was a time period where “experts” were talking about Rolen being the best 3B of all time. I think that will help his candidacy.

Jimmy Ballgame has one HUGE thing going for him… Chicks dig Jimmy Ballgame

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

he looks like he is leaning back on something

but there is nothing to lean back on.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 10, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

His built-in tripod?

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

by MeSoHornsby on Jan 10, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

he's leaning back on his own coolality

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He's so awesome

that he’s feet aren’t even touching the ground.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

i bet that girl is actually holding him in her arms.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Let's hope for JEd's sake

that women and sportscenter anchors get to have a say in his election.

by openside on Jan 10, 2012 10:22 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

You know what he just told her?

Baby, if you think I look awesome now, you should see me in my half shirt and frosted tips….

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

There are actually a couple of other pics of this girl standing near Edmonds

and this was the best pic of her.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that is his wife

Assuming he’s still married.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

On a side note

does Jimmy get his number retired if he doesn’t get in the Hall?

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Not unless ownership changes their policy.

That isn’t out of the question, but doesn’t seem likely right now.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

the policy is numbers aren't retired unless the player makes the HOF?

i did not know that.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a formal policy

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

will there is one

Ken boyer, although i think he should be in. He’s a tweener yes, but not everyone can be mike schmidt at 3rd. 3b is really under represented.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 10, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Boyer deserves to be in there if Santos is in there.

Santos wasn’t anywhere near as good a defensive player as Boyer.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

What if I emailed DeWitt and

told him that Jimmy is my favorite Cardinal of all time?

Surely that counts for something!

In all seriousness, he did a TON for the Cards, and not just on the field. With all that he did to land us McGwire, he voluntarily made himself the Card’s second best player. I think if he wouldn’t have hit in McGwire’s, then Pujols’s shadow, he’d be much more popular.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

i kinda want to lairdbomb this thread too

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Jan 10, 2012 9:28 AM EST reply actions  

i don't know if Laird Bombs will ever get old.

but I am willing to have them be posted until i find out.

LAIRDBOMB AWAY!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

are they still sore over 2006?

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably.

Couldn’t blame them.

They still might find Leaping Laird amusing.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me just say that Mac still looks like a monster.

as for Lance, where does his stance as once of the best switch-hitters put him? He does hold the record for most switch-hit HRs, doesn’t he? BBWAA’s members should really be able to sink their teeth in to that kind of a thing.

I’m not sure in JEd can get the momentum needed to get in straight up. But I’m not ruling out the vet’s committee someday. I hope this doesn’t happen though.

I’m confused as to why Lee Smith doesn’t get in. They let in all the other great ‘closers’ and Lee had a better SO rate than any of them, walks weren’t any higher. His ERA is just a .02 higher than Gossage’s if that’s what they’re going to use. Makes no sense to me.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 9:43 AM EST reply actions  

No, he doesn't, and he's not close either
He does hold the record for most switch-hit HRs

MIckey Mantle has 536 homers and is in the HOF. Eddie Murray has 504 homers and is in the HOF. Chipper Jones has 454 homers (nearly 100 more than Berkman’s 358) and is headed to the HOF when he retires. Hell, Berkman just passed Chili Davis (350) this year, and Chili Davis isn’t getting any run for the HOF either.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

CHILI DAVIS!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay, so I got one wrong.

Nothing says that Lance can’t catch Chipper either if he plays until he’s as old as Chipper is.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

He's three years younger than Jones

So that’s 35 homers a year just to catch him. Sure, he COULD catch Jones, but it’s probably not likely considering that Jones is still playing and looks, for all intensive purposes, like he’s chasing 500 homers.

But he’s definitely not catching Mantle (unless he plays at a very high level until he’s 42 years old) or Murray. If he catches either of those men he’ll have the greatest post-age 35 power surge this side of Hank Aaron.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll stop talking now.

I thought Chipper was older than that.

/having a monday on a tuesday

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I, like you, don't think that power hitting switch hitters get enough credit for doing what they do, as I consider it to be incredibly difficult.

But when you start looking at Berkman’s numbers, they scream Hall of Very Good, not Hall of Fame. Had he been able to stay in CF for his entire career, he might have a shot at the HOF. As a guy who played there for 5 years and then moved to a corner outfield/infield position, probably not. He just doesn’t have the counting stats to get there.

What’s really interesting is how closely Berkman compares to Dick Allen, who Bob Gibson thought very highly of. Gibson called Allen the “toughest out in the National League” during his career.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Dick Allen / Lance Berkman is a great comp. . .

and Bob Gibson’s quote about Allen seems like it could apply equally well to Berkman today.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed

I don’t think Lance is done yet, though. He still has a good chance to pad his counting stats. Or, he could fall off a cliff.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

He could, but he'd need 5 more years of 30 homer seasons

to reach 500 homers. Considering he has only six 30 homer seasons in his 13 year career, I don’t think that’s very likely for a guy who turns 36 in February.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, he only has ~1800 hits and ~400 doubles

So he’s not getting to 3000 hits or 600 doubles either, which are the milestone counting stat markers for HOF players traditionally.

As I said, I think he ends up with 400+ homers and 500+ doubles to go along with 2500+ hits. Those are HOVG numbers for a 1B/RF player.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't blame a guy for wishing.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

he could go all Barry Bonds on us...
If he catches either of those men he’ll have the greatest post-age 35 power surge this side of Hank Aaron.

If Berkman hits over 300 HRs after he is 35, then THAT would be impressive.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

When Berkman shows up to ST

with a head the size of a beach ball, we can discuss this.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

he also must wear a full suit of body armor so he can basically hover over the plate with that giant head!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

for all intensive purposes,

[shudders…]

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 10, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

Heh

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 4:12 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

At one point or another, we are all intense porpoises.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

HIGHLIGHTS FOR DOLPHINS

FUN WITH A PORPOISE

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

oh god. and this is fourstick misusing that.

that’s sad.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Mickey Mantle holds the record for career home runs for a switch-hitter

Lance is 4th behind Mickey, Eddie Murray, and Chipper Jones.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

by MeSoHornsby on Jan 10, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

But if he's behind guys that good

then he must get in!

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

regardless of his total number of HRs

lance berkman is one of the greatest switch hitters of all time. he gets in for that reason.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

i wish this were true

but i don’t think it will work that way

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

unfortunately, unless your name is willie mays,

it is nigh impossible to be elected into the HoF if you played the majority of your career as a center fielder. Who has made it in the last 50 years? Kirby Puckett?

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 9:56 AM EST reply actions  

counterpoint: I don't know how many guys in that time have actually had long careers as CFs

Griffey will be added to the list soon. Does Andruw Jones make it eventually? Lofton?

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, I don't think Lofton will sniff the HOF

though he deserves a real look.

expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat

by kcgard2 on Jan 14, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Mickey Mantle would be in that group too.

Duke Snider, who everyone seems to forget about, and who also is a really good Jim Edmonds comp. Maybe Edmonds biggest problem is how close he compares to the HOF guy at his position that everyone forgets about.

Robin Yount played around half his career in CF, but is probably considered more of a SS than a CF I guess.

In addition, Griffey is a sure-fire first ballot guy when he becomes eligible. I think Andruw Jones will probably have a SABR push when he becomes eligible, but his quick decline is pretty damning, imo.

Third Baseman and Centerfielders are the most under-represented players in the HOF, imo.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

aren't you the one pushing hard for scott-rolen-to-the-HOF?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I will be pushing for that too

He’s already well over 70 fWAR, has played fantastic defense his entire career, conceivably has a couple decent years left (I said conceivably, obviously time will tell with that). If Edmonds belongs, Rolen definitely belongs.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I will be pushing for that too

He’s already well over 70 fWAR, has played fantastic defense his entire career, conceivably has a couple decent years left (I said conceivably, obviously time will tell with that). If Edmonds belongs, Rolen definitely belongs.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

With good reason.

Both postiions are horribly underrepresented. This is not surprising. Even today most sportswriters struggle to grasp positional adjustment. Just look at the 2011 NL MVP vote.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

the 2011 NL MVP vote makes me want to punch a baby.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Like 2006 and 1987...

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The silver lining was the FJM posts it gave us.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't thrilled with 2007 either.

Parts of 2008 infuriated me but the right guy won, so it’s OK.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

2007 sucked.

two obvious choices above jimmy rollins and it didn’t happen.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

1987 was just nuts...

the guy with the lowest war of the top 20 receiving votes was Steve Bedrosian, a reliever. The second lowest was the winner.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

wow what a crock that is.

OZZIE GOT ROBBED!

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

And the same sportswriters who gave the 1987 NL MVP to the league outs-made leader...

then cited his MVP award when they elected him to the hall of fame.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Ozzie and Clark split the vote

Which made Dawson the winner. On a team that finished last.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

...

He symbolized the only reason fans had for showing their faces around Broad and Pattison during summertime.
All right, Stephen. Interesting. I’m not sure how heavily we should weigh fan appeal, or more specifically Philadelphia fan appeal, in the MVP selection process, but do carry on.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

stephen a smith actually wrote this.

The St. Louis Cardinals would not have sniffed the postseason without him, let alone captured a World Series championship. But the reality is the talent that is Pujols, while fairly unique, is a dime a dozen in the laundry list of Latin talent that has invaded baseball.
There are so many problems with that last sentence even I, Dr. Frank Quietly, can’t let it go. Pujols, while fairly unique, is a dime a dozen? "Dime a dozen in the laundry list" is an amazing two clichés in seven words. Invaded? Invaded? Jesus, that’s negative. What if someone wrote that African-Americans invaded the NBA? That would sound terrible. Albert Pujols led Ryan Howard in WPA, 9.24 to 8.20.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks. now i can't see or hear straight.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

In fairness to Stephen A. Smith (file this under "things I never thought I'd have to say")

He’s supposed to champion the “black guy”. That’s his thing. If it had been Lance Berkman and Pujols, Stephen A doesn’t give a shit about the race factor.

FWIW, if I can tell what your opinion will be before you ever utter a single word about the subject, just based on who you are, then you aren’t a very good sportswriter in my opinion.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

y helo thar Jemele Hill

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

...

really?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

???

I don’t understand what’s so puzzling about that statement. Clearly that’s what he is doing here. And, just as clearly, that’s his token position given his archive of columns.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

earlier in that same article, he says that howard should win the MVP

because he brought african-american fans to philly

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, okay.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, if I can tell what your opinion will be before you ever utter a single word about the subject, just based on who you are, then you aren’t a very good sportswriter in my opinion.

this is the definition of bryan burwell.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

That is most definitely his shtick.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, pretty much

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

There have been much worse ones

Pujols and Howard were comparable.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, and everyone else should be too.

If he retired right now, he’d be in the top ten third baseman all time in fWAR. It’s pretty easy to see him passing Molitor, Killebrew and Santo if he’s able to play another 2-3 years. Defensively, only Brooks Robinson and Buddy Bell have more total defensive WAR at 3B than Rolen among the top 25 third baseman in career WAR.

That makes him just about a lock in my opinion, but I’m sure that his lack of counting stats will somehow keep him out of the HOF.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Ritchie Ashburn made it in....

him and Puckett represent the floor for CFers. Edmonds was clearly better than both, clearly worse than Cobb/Mantle/Griffey/Mays/Dimaggio/Speaker and on par with Snider. I’ve got him no worse than 9th best ever.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

oops, I forgot Ashburn too

Here is a comp. of Ashburn, Dawson, Puckett, and Edmonds: http://tinyurl.com/889tbw3. These guys are all fairly similar, with the exception that Puckett ended early, Dawson showed a distinctly different trend after he got hurt, and Jimmy lost almost a full year to injury (age 28 season). Puckett is clearly the weakest of the bunch.

by apack on Jan 10, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

mantle, snider, ashburn, puckett

griffey will probably be first ballot, but yeah, it’s a short list. then you think about the better CFs over the last 40 years or so, and you have guys like Lynn and Cedeno and Murphy, all of whom had HOF issues due to careers that took a wrong turn because of injuries, trades,etc.
I think Edmonds should get in simply because he was the best CFer of his peak period, and one of the top 10 of all time. then again I think Jack Morris should be in because he was one of the top No. 1 starters of the 80s in terms of innings and wins and the general consensus of the time.
it’s an inexact science

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

How do you feel about Morris's 3.90 career ERA setting the new high for HOF ERA?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

105 ERA+!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

i could live with it

i’m not saying i’m right. i’m just saying it wouldn’t bug me all that much. i think back to the 80s, and Morris was considered a premiere starter year after year. it was probably not a pitching-rich decade, all things considered. not like the previous decade when you had Seaver, Carlton and Palmer heading things up. Or the 60s with Koufax, Gibson & Marichal. Or the 90s with Maddux, Clemens & Pedro.
In the 80s, if there was a triumvirate, it was probably Morris, Steib and Ryan. Gooden and Clemens didn’t pitch enough years.
I would just pick Morris based on his status as a No. 1 starter, his wins, his innings.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

and i would be taken to the woodshed for favoring morris

and i would be ok with that, too

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say two of your criteria are little too relative for my taste.

Morris’s status as a No. 1 starter was in part due to the other pitchers who pitched in the rotations he was on. They weren’t as good as Morris even when Morris was not very good. His “wins” aren’t all that impressive to me either. The Tigers team he played on had some excellent hitters and defenders. They scored runs at a high rate and played good defense behind him. Morris doesn’t have an impressive strikeout rate or total and he walked a lot of batters. Morris also has a high ERA. At 3.90, it would be the highest ERA ever allowed into the HOF. I don’t think he was as good a pitcher as folks think he was. I don’t think a pitcher with a 3.90 ERA is deserving of the HOF, especially when that ERA equals a 105 ERA+, which is just above average.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

understood

But I’d still vote him in. I think historical context is important. As a fan who followed the game pretty closely in the 80s, all I remember is Morris was considered a top pitcher, year after year after year after year. That counts for something. He piled up wins and innings. He had some outstanding postseason games. That counts for something.
If he makes the Hall, which I think he will based on this year’s vote, and people are upset, it won’t be the first time or the last. There are plenty of people in the Hall who I don’t think belong.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

But if you think

sportswriters believe silly things now, just think about how it was in the 1980s! “Was considered” is a very shaky foundation to build on.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

So is Jack McDowell making it in on your ballot too?

How about Kevin Appier? David Cone? All were considered to be “top pitchers” in the 1990’s, but none are going to sniff the HOF.

“Top Pitcher” is so subjective it’s nearly impossible to quantify it.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

got it

this is the part where I’m supposed to just see the light and agree with the sabermetric view, right?
where i’m supposed to favor the opinion of part-time number crunchers over beat writers who spend 10 months a year covering a team day in and day out?
where i’m supposed to take your word for it and just forget my lying eyes, which told me Morris was a highly effective pitcher the 50 or 60 times I watched him pitch?
sorry, not gonna happen.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You can have whatever opinion you wish

I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just saying that if you really want to make this argument with people who are statistically inclined, saying “he was considered a top pitcher” and “he’s a #1 starter” are really just subjective garbage that have no quantifiable value in terms of evaluating performance.

You could make the case that he pitched in a pitcher’s ballpark and got left in a lot of games that he should have been lifted in. Those are pretty good arguments for why his ERA is so high. The problem with your argument is that when you statistically compare him to the pitchers of his era, he’s just slightly above average. That’s why I used McDowell, Appier, and Cone: Those guys have ERA+ figures that exceed Morris’ (meaning they were better than their peers than Morris was), were considered top pitchers and #1 starters for a good number of years in their era, but who aren’t going to sniff 30% on the HOF ballot. Yet Morris keeps getting votes to get in when he clearly just doesn’t stack up with the other pitchers in the HOF, statistically or otherwise.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't want to make an argument with the statistically inclined

i made a point earlier in the thread, someone disagreed with it, i made a counterpoint, someone disagreed with that, i made another counterpoint, 93 others diagreed with that, and on and on and on

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i respect your opinion, i just have problems with your methodology.

historical context is important: the context of morris’ career in the history of the entire MLB. he wasn’t good enough to be in the hall of fame. he was essentially an average pitcher who pitched for a long time and therefore amassed a few favourable counting stats.

additionally, i do not think that what you are making can be fairly called “counterpoints” because they’re not really addressing the point that people are making.

i’m glad there are still a few non-sabr people here just to stir the pot, so please don’t take this the wrong way. i’m just not sure why people trust their own observation of events that happened over twenty years ago instead of looking at the spreadsheet where every single meaningful thing that morris ever did is documented…

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

see...

…..you want me to say, “Gosh, you’re right! Your argument and your numbers are way too logical for me to dispute!”

But I don’t agree. I am not being swayed. I don’t care what his ERA is, or his ERA-plus. I care that he won more games during the 80s than any other pitcher, that he was considered a premiere pitcher of the time.

That’s my argument. You call it subjective, and I don’t care. It’s all subjective. Finis.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, yeah?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

oh stop it

c’mon dude, you need to be better than this. i made my arguments earlier. they are based on reason. they’re plenty valid, in my eyes. i’m just throwing any old thing out there now because what the fuck is the point anymore? this is all just running in place.
.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right, I apologize

Let me try and understand you better; you are against using performance indicators as a gauge on who makes the Hall of Fame, correct?

I assume you are taking “fame” in the literal sense and somebody has to FEEL like a “Hall of Famer” to you?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

if the problem in this discussion is simply

that we disagree what the “hall of fame” means, then i have no problem with cha-cha’s position at all.

i think “hall of fame” means “best players” or at least i would like that to be what it means.

other people might think it means “hall of the historically and culturally significant” (like kevin goldstein) in which case i disagree for personal reasons but i do not begrudge them their opinions in any way.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

and now i say

“wins are not indicative of pitcher performance as much as they are a reflection of how good the offence was for the teams on which he pitched”.

and then you say, “you’re wrong and even if you were right i don’t care”.

that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and et cetera.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The 1980s.

To me, this is an arbitrary cut-off in looking at Morris’s career which began in 1977 and ended in 1994. To me—and again, this is my opinion—the HOF is not about the best ten years a player had; it’s about a player’s entire career. Over Morris’s entire career, he was a bit better than average.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

His ERA+ from 1980 - 1989: 109

ERA: 3.66

He had only two seasons with fewer than 30 starts in that time: The strike shortened ’82 season, and his awful ’89 season for the worst club he ever played on.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is that Jack Morris's 1980s stats are not his career stats

and the HOF is about careers. Even if we use the 1980s as his peak, his peak is more like a hill than a mountain.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

At this point Morris is getting elected because...

young, statistically inclined bloggers are making bbwaa voters feel defensive and embarrassed about their intellectually lazy approach to player valuation.

This is really all it amounts to.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah, that was my point

Even his stats for that decade aren’t really much better than his stats overall.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't want you to say anything, actually

We just want to make the case that your methodology of determining the value of a player is suspect.

“He won more games in the 1980’s than any other pitcher”. I’m sure this has nothing to do with:

  • Starting 50 more games than any other pitcher.
  • Playing on only one team in that span that had a losing record.
  • Never getting hurt.

Now, the last one might actually have something to do with talent, although with pitchers I think it’s more a function of luck. The first two have NOTHING TO DO with talent. Not to mention, his ERA+ (again, how he compares to his peers) was only 109 over the span from 1980-1989.

We’re not trying to sway you, just providing evidence that your argument really isn’t all that valid in terms of the context of player value or skill.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm. . .
Now, the last one might actually have something to do with talent, although with pitchers I think it’s more a function of luck.

I would probably say that the God-given ability to throw a fastball 90 mph and the ability to do so repetitively without injuring oneself are of one and the same nature.

Whether that’s “talent” or “luck” is a different question, and mostly semantics, I suppose.

And of course, none of this is relevant to whether or not Jack Morris is a HoFer.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

When you base someone's case on:
  • Being a #1 starter in his era
  • Logging a lot of innings
  • Having a lot of wins

You’re going to get some debate about your methodology. I think we should compare players to other players in their era. However, I don’t think we should do it with arbitrary counting stats. We should do it with rate statistics that adjust for era. When you do that, your analysis of Morris simply doesn’t hold up. He wasn’t much better than average for his era, much less “one of the top pitchers” of his era. It’s a subjective opinion of yours. You’re entitled to it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t debatable.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

know what's great?

67% of the HOF voters apparently agree with me. so do millions of everyday fans, i’m guessing.

yet you guys, and you guys only, are the only ones who get to have a say about it.

statistically speaking, you are a small sample size. you may rule VEB, but that’s about it.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

o_o

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

since when is agreeing with HOF voters a good thing?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

There are too many cliques on VEB

i think we should terminate some people to correct the balance

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO Y2S?

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

i ain't saying nothing

but yes

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

dammit.

i was going to make the same comment.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

so you are right

and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. just say it. just admit it, just once.

i said a LONG time ago in this thread that “I’m not saying I’m right.” I’m just saying that’s how I feel.

If I had a dollar for every time one of you guys said that, I wouldn’t have a dollar.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And nobody is arguing with how you feel

You seem to be arguing that “how you feel” is the “truth”. That’s where we disagree.

I just thank the stars you don’t have a HOF vote. Because I’d be explaining to my kids who the hell Dave Stieb and Vida Blue are, you know, since they’d be in the HOF.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Bandwagon fallacy + Mob Rule = Losing a Debate

If all you can come up with is that we’re the idiots because we don’t follow the common sense of baseball writers (who seem to have very little common sense in terms of justifying their HOF votes) then I think you just lose this debate. VEB 1 – Cha Cha 0.

NEXT CASE!

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

you see a debate. i see a sideshow

i knew when I mentioned Morris it would light a fire under VEB. It’s like Pavlov’s dog, you know? mention morris and HOF, watch everyone jump into the fire.

but gosh, what fun it has been.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That's unfortunate.

You just took a position without a legitimate basis just to bait people into arguing with you? I’m sorry I wasted my time and yours by attempting to engage in a legitimate discussion on the topic with you.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It would be, if that's really what he was doing

I think he’s now trying to reverse course without being humbled.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

If you're just baiting people into an argument,

why are you being so brash about your stance in an argument you don’t care to have?

Seems to me that you’ve been made to look foolish and are now trying to cover your tracks by stating that you just meant to incite an internet riot and that your initial opinion was intended to do only that.

Interesting.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

had an incredibly well reasoned response to this

all typed out, but I hit the backspace key while not in the text box and backed out of VEB. All because I didn’t want to set off the Szymborski signal on this guy. Now I missed out on Z’ing through half a day’s VEB, so I don’t even care if I set of the Szymborski signal for Dan Szymborski, not Dave Szymborski, to come by and put this Cha-Cha in his place.

Szymborski.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 10, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you say Dan Szymborski?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

morris pitched 3824 innings between 18-35 years ago

I can’t remember what I had for lunch a week ago today. I don’t think personal recollection of ~10% of his career starts is enough to discount the historical record of fact that remembers every detail.

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly right.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

and yet

when Morris gets voted in - and he will, if this year’s vote is any indication- he will forevermore be known as Hall of Famer Jack Morris.
And that will cause much costernation, rage and weeping within the sabermetrics community.
so there’s a bright side to everything.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

that's from a dylan song

it’s aims out. as in, toward you.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Jan 10, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don’t get it, man. No one ever said: “When I was a kid, if we were going to cut off your leg we’d give you a shot of whiskey and a rope to bite down on, and we’d just take a dirty hacksaw and just hack away, outside, on the ground. Why do all these nerds keep talking about ‘anaesthesia’ and ‘sterilization?!’”

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

wat

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

heh, okay.

if you don’t desire to understand what morris ACTUALLY, FACTUALLY did over the course of his career and will instead choose to remember him erroneously, then have at it.

the gnashing of teeth will be totally legitimate and will continue to be so until the hall of fame is entirely discredited as an institution.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

If he was gonna get in, it would have been this year since it was a lean year of candidates

I’m reasonably sure that he doesn’t get in now.

So, go cry or something I guess.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

i mean, i hope he doesn’t, but jaffe said on twitter yesterday that no one has received as much of the vote as morris and NOT eventually been inducted. so i would be surprised if that happens in this case.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

His vote total is a function of how acrimonious...

the saber-old timer divide is. If people stop talking and blogging about it, Morris’ vote total will go down. And I think there will be less of a debate about Morris next year when the steroids debate consumes everything.

The thing about HOF voting is that there are many voters who don’t actually like baseball, follow baseball, or care about the hall of fame. The notion of “cheaters” raise their hackles so anyone with muscles gets snubbed. The idea that a skinny guy with a computer is smarter about sports than they are makes them feel defensive so they punch Morris’ name.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If you think cheapening the greatest honor that a baseball player can earn, a natural result of honoring unqualified players, I can’t imagine you’re much of a baseball fan. The value of an honor is determined by the people who received that honor.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Jan 10, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, you are a horrible person.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

well, i mean that's a given

but if i’m not a baseball fan, i sure watch a shitload of baseball over the last few years and spent lots of time studying the game

by prophetjohn on Jan 10, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah i don't care about what the BBWAA does

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I care what they do

because their stupidity further amplifies a lot of misunderstanding of the game.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I can respect that pov.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I am shocked to see that you showed up

SHOCKED

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 10, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Be nice, or I’ll invoice you guys.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Jan 10, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Gimme 6 months if you do.

Christmas about wiped me out this year.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

The BBWAA. . .

is not who you think it is. It is not made up entirely, or even mostly, of “beat writers who spend 10 months a year covering a team day in and day out”. It is not necessary that those guys are actually covering baseball any more. Once you are a voter, you are always a voter, even if tou have moved on to cover hockey or professional horseshoes, or what have you.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

there's a flyers beat-writer who gets a HoF ballot.

(that’s sticky-puck for those of you who do not know)

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And he submitted a blank ballot.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Because he didn't feel like anybody was worth the HoF this year

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

okay, now i have a problem with it again.

some people withhold ballots because they don’t believe the writers should choose, which is completely fine with me as a sort-of nonviolent civil disobedience about something that is mostly meaningless in the cosmic scale of things.

but saying no one was worthy is completely asinine.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah i assumed it was because he doesn't follow baseball anymore and didn't think he should get a vote

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

i actually sort-of like this point:
A third policy: 3,000 hits or 300 wins is no reason to automatically elect someone.

but the rest is pretty rubbish.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i mean i didn't read the whole article

but the beginning was a convo with jim thome about how steroid users are vile human beings and then the next sentence starts talking about barry larkin, who is not a suspected steroid user at all

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

IHB is on steroids?

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

We should inform the softball league at once

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

tlr. freese. etc.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

season starts in two days!

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

was that really why?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i would love to FJM the shit out of this article

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

please do.

i miss FJM styled take-downs.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe i will make a fan post

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Boom

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 11, 2012 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

For a pitcher who was “considered a top pitcher, year after year after year after year” he fared pretty poorly. As Colin Wyers noted today, Jack Morris finished 23rd in the 1980s in Cy Young votes, a curious condition for a pitcher if that pitcher was actually considered to be such.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Jan 10, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, let's remember that

Jeremy Guthrie was a “#1 starter” in 2011.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

HFS, this is a long subthread

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

to be honest

the hall of fame is the one bit of baseball i just can’t get behind. Its just ridiculous, is it a hall of moral people who just happened to be good at baseball? Is it a hall of people who were good at baseball and may have also been kinda dicks?

Great players, regardless of HOW they acheived what they acheived should be in the Hall of Fame, its not like people are ever going to forget the whole Bonds-Steroids scandal, just put him in the HoF and say “Look, this guy is controversial BUT LOOK AT HOW AWESOME HE WAS”. If you don’t put him in the HoF then we’re just going to have to endure the same arguments for ever and ever and ever and ever.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

It's funny:

If you put Rose and Bonds and McGwire IN the Hall of Fame, there’s probably 90% less written about them next year than if you keep them OUT of the HOF for the various reasons they aren’t getting voted in.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

You might have a point. . .

if all of the guys in the Hall of Fame hadn’t passed rigorous background checks and political correctness tests before being inducted.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

i mean, i agree with this

and it does piss me off that there are, for example, known racists in the HOF. but i think its interesting how the HOF reflects the players’ era. so even though there are guys who did greenies or whatever in the 70s, people didn’t care then. and there will be this empty era where steroid users didn’t in, and it reflects (in theory) society’s view about PEDs.

part of me would like to see the hall more uniform and standardized and consistent. but when you look at how baseball has changed and evolved with time, you can see how that’s just not possible.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I would like to see a more consistent hall too

Because there are so many different definitions of what makes someone “deserve” to get in (almost as many as there are voters) the system just seems a little crazy to me. Which is why my preferred solution would be to simply make it the Hall of the Best Players. At least that’s something people could agree on in theory. They still wouldn’t all agree on player value, but it would eliminate several avenues of argument, disagreement, and B.S.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Jimmy has a chance

But he will be one of those marginal players that crawls his way upward year by year. The fun begins in four years,,,

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 AM EST reply actions  

Voters aren't going to have room for him...

Right now there are four deserving guys – Raines, Trammell, Bagwell, and McGwire. In 2013, six more guys join in Bonds, Piazza, Schilling, Clemens, Biggio, and Sosa. Then in 2014 there are five more in Maddux, Glavine, Kent, Frank Thomas, and Mussina. Then in 2015 there will be another four – Randy Johnson, Smoltz, Pedro, and Sheffield join.

Assuming that only Maddux and Randy Johnson get in immediately, there’s going to be about 18 deserving guys by 2018 and none will ever rise to 75% because the 10 votes each voter gets will be spread out over too many guys.

The ballots have to expand

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I bet

The Hall will change the rules and allow ballots with more than ten. If they don’t, the logjam will grow horrific.

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Trammell, Sosa, Biggio, and Kent. . .

are no more deserving than Jimmy Baseball, and arguably less deserving.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Strongly disagree about Biggio...

I’d have to look more closely at the others… The point is there will be an acute shortage of votes and the result is that none of the 20 or so deserving players will get in.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but as long as you get enough votes. . .

15 years is a long time to stay on the ballor. There’s plenty of time for all of those guys to get in.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, Biggio has 3000 hits. . .

never mind on him.

(How did I forget that he got 3000 hits?)

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I think Biggio is definitely in

He was an awesome player (way better than I realized until after he retired) and has some cool unique features that I assume the BBWAA guys will love. Such as the season with no GIDP, the multiple positions, etc.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i think biggio should be over 90%

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I knew Biggio was good.

I didn’t know he was THAT good. I was surprised.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally disagree on Biggio

3000 hits, 650+ doubles, 400+ SB, 5 year peak (1994-1998): .308/.404/.477 — that’s Rickey Henderson type production in the leadoff spot.

I think Trammell is a tweener, but I think were it not for SS like A-Rod, Nomar, and Tejada, he’d be getting a lot more run than he is. I think Kent’s numbers as a 2B merit induction: If Robby Alomar is in, the Jeff Kent has to be in too.

Agree on Sosa: Outside of his 5 best seasons he was a very average right fielder for the majority of his career.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh I think Kent has a case for getting in. . .

but Jimmy Baseball’s case as a CF is better than Kent’s case as a 2B IMHO.

Jimmy hit more HRs and had a higher OPS+, and won 8 GG at a tougher defensive position than the one at which Kent was a butcher.

Edmonds case is so much better than Kent’s that it’s not even close.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I would agree with that

I’m sticking to my case on Biggio though. I think he’s one of the best 25 players in the last 30 years.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

I had forgotten Biggio’s 3000 hits, which is a golden ticket in. (And you are right, he would deserve it if he had 2999 hits and all of his rate stats were similar.)

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and Biggio was a very good defensive

catcher, second baseman, and center fielder. That’s just mind blowing.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope you're right, but

They still haven’t let his buddy Bagwell in yet. Bag’s stats are even stronger than Biggios. Then again, there is no way Biggios benefitted from the roofs, so maybe he sails through?…

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Craig Biggio may be the best player of the 1990s.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

... not Barry Bonds?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Bonds was an absolute beast...

better than Pujols during the 1990s.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Interestingly enough

Fangraphs WAR puts them at almost dead even. I compared Pujosl in 2001-2010 to both Bonds’ 1990-1999 and 1991-2000 (since people have different standards for how to define the “decades”). All three of those groups were between 80 and 83 fWAR.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

In fairness

Pujols was only in his age 19 season in 1990.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Also. . .

you are naming at least two and maybe three guys (in addition to Trammel, Sosa, and Kent, whose cases are less impressive than Jimmy’s) who are never getting in by writers vote because of the steroid issue (Bonds, McGwire, maybe Bagwell)

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

The ballots don't have to expand. The writers aren't the only people voting players into the HOF.

The Veterans committee can put these guys into the HOF if they so choose. There have been peaks and valleys of players eligible for the Hall. All is well.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 10, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

How old is this pic of McGwire?

Every time hall of fame voting comes around, there’s a pair of talk radio guys in Chicago (oddly enough probably the best ones) who feel the need to talk about McGwire and how much he has shrank since he stopped playing.

And then there are pics like this. I know he’s smaller, but McGwire is still huge.

by sdrone on Jan 10, 2012 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

I think his neck and shoulders are visibly smaller than when he was playing

but he’s still a big freaking dude.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, he's always been a big freaking dude.

Go look at pictures of him from his days at USC: 6’5", 220 and that’s before any weight training at all.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

In 1998, I remember seeing Randy Johnson standing at first base talking to this little guy before a game.

That little guy was McGwire. That’s the only time I can recall thinking that Mac wasn’t a huge guy.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I know.

People talk about him being a “skinny” rookie in ’87. Compared to how he looked in ’98, I guess he was “skinnier” but he was hardly “skinny”

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

And he hit 50 homers that year too.

Lest we forget.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

49

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if you put the tighter jerseys on some of these guys today

They’d look HUGE. Remember, very little weight training was done by baseball players prior to 1990. It was thought to inhibit your ability to throw a baseball and would decrease bat speed if you got too muscular.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I subscribe to the "huge guy" theory.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Boers and Bernstein?

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

nicely done

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn, Schilling might be a better pitcher than Bob Gibson

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 10:52 AM EST reply actions  

Show your working damnit

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

It's from an Insider Buster Olney article

Here

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Man does he love Everquest though

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I will always cherish the moment after Game 2 of the World Series

when I walked by the BBTN set (they were on the air), and I flipped off Curt Schilling and he made eye contact with me(he was not the one currently talking). It almost made up for the 9th inning meltdown.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Schilling should be in the HOF but so should Kevin Brown.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Both should be in.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

When I think of McGwire

I think of a man of integrity. I think of a guy that hung it up 2 years earlier than his contract expired because he knew he was through. He left a lot money on the table. Two years and $30 million. Pujols left us for that over 10 years.

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 10, 2012 11:01 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

I seem to remember McGwire "re-working" his contract to give the Cardinals more room to sign players.

is this jsut some weird fantasy I created?

Either way, I have never felt guilty for being a Mark McGwire supporter.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Matt Holiday just called in to tell everyone he is nothing like Lance Berkman...

and he has the stats to prove it.

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 11:15 AM EST reply actions  

Keith Law's staying at ESPN, not going to Astros, per his Twitter account

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 11:24 AM EST reply actions  

Of note. . .

I am staying at [current place of employment redacted for privacy] instead of accepting either major party’s nomination for President of the United States.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Phew.

I was starting to worry about how to replace my one-stop-shop for board game tips, prospect analysis, and undergraduate-level literary criticism.

by Pegasus on Jan 10, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

In the man's defense

He does have good taste in board games. Unfortunately, that’s not too high on my list of crucial qualities for a baseball analyst.

by Cheeseandcorn on Jan 10, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually like Law a lot, and am happy he'll keep writing for ESPN.

He’s still fun to roll one’s eyes at sometimes, awesome though Carcassone may be.

by Pegasus on Jan 10, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Also food.

Isn’t he a big foodie? (foody? sp?)

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think so

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

more important question: is rui staying with sporting KC and VEB and not going to the astros?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

no phone call?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I got a call, I got an offer

I’m way better off here

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm, well, i'm really surprised.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

(it was a terrible offer.)

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I know

“I MAY already be a winner? I need to know damnit!”

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Also, I get full autonomy here, and there are certain other things happening that make it wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than anything I could have possibly dreamed of

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus, soccer is going to be huge!

While baseball is clearly dead.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes!

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh man, was that real?

I’m glad I’m getting into soccer at the RIGHT time, not too early (like in this case) and not too late (like with baseball)

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Whatever.

You missed out on FIFA for Sega Genesis.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

HATER!

the ’94 US team was was awesome

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Marcelo Balboa and Alexi Lalas.

good looking dudes!

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

All I remember about that

is that it was impossible to get a hotel room in Chicago.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

SIGN LIONEL MESSI

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Our owner tweeted the other day because a Spanish DP we were trying to sign got injured

And everyone was all “omg david villa” lolololololol

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I should clarify, not that the offer was bad, it's that it wasn't a good fit for my skillset

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

completely understood.

i was just curious.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

they heard he's willing to work for free

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Rodriguez in the Hall?

Anybody want to bet that they forget all about steroids when A Rod becomes elgible?

Older than any three of you.

by Remember Kenny B on Jan 10, 2012 11:27 AM EST reply actions  

they should

because he’s one of the best players of the last 30-40 years. But they won’t.

Preemptive; Hyperbole is a type of metaphor.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah they will.

He’s a Yankee. (Not a True Yankee, but still.)

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

of course they will

and when that happens i will freak out. like its okay to elect a KNOWN steroid user if he’s really really really really really really good, but not if he’s only really really really really good

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Clemens and Bonds will get in. The justification will be that they were great *before* using PEDs.

This will open the door for A-Rod and eventually Veterans Committee elections for players like McGwire.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Clemens and Bonds

will be made to suffer for a good long time before getting in, and maybe indefinitely.

I just hope that both get the same treatment at the same time. I dread the racial politics that will enter into it if they are treated differently.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

you don't agree that we have NO idea when they started using steroids?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

We also have no idea when steroids started getting into the game of baseball

They sure as shit were available before 1993.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 10, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree that we have no idea when players started using steroids.

But that doesn’t mean that BBWAA members, in their infinite wisdom, don’t think that they know when players started using steroids and will vote accordingly. Heyman has laid the groundwork for this rationale:

It’s all a judgment call, and if in my judgment I still believe a player would have fashioned a Hall of Fame career without his artificial help, I reserve the right to vote for him. If someone else wants to automatically vote no on all the players with taint, that’s fine. I just am going to have a hard time with a Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens or Alex Rodriguez.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

i mean really he's making a judgement regarding

how many homers mcgwire would have hit without PEDs….HOW CAN HE POSSIBLY KNOW THIS? its completely arbitrary

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

They dude thinks Jack Morris pitched to the score even though the actual performance wasn't different

Classic case of you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

The "pitching to the score" argument is ridiculous to me.

Accepting for the sake of argument that it’s true (even though it’s been proven false), why would you vote for someone who didn’t try as hard when he was ahead and let the other team score runs? If Morris “pitched to the score,” he was putting opponents in a better position to win. This is the antithesis of what sport is about and should disqualify Morris from enshrinement.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

JACK MORRIS BET ON BASEBALL GAMES

I HAVE REASONED THIS THROUGH A CAREFUL EXAMINATION OF JON HEYMAN’S REASONING

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

It's absurd.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t agree with Heyman’s reasoning. After all, this is a man who thinks that Jack Morris’s career 3.90 ERA doesn’t matter. I’m just saying that there will be very inconsistent standards applied by voters. It’s going to be very ugly. Partly because of Twitter.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, its all very infuriating

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

or course its arbitrary, but it's not a bad system, IMO

I personally would not take anything off for steroid users though.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a bad system because it's an empty vessel in which Heyman can pour his personal prejudices when voting.

There is no way for Heyman to know that which he claims will be his basis. How does he know that A-Rod would have been a HOFer without using steroids? He doesn’t. How does he know McGwire would not have been a HOFer without steroids? He doesn’t. No one does.

What’s more, Heyman doesn’t know when A-Rod, Bonds, or Clemens started using steroids. If they used steroids from, say, high school or college through the end of their MLB careers, Heyman’s system is all the more ridiculous and horrible.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

is there a list somewhere of the BBWAA?

i am curious if there are any women.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

there are some!

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I agree with this 100%
It’s a bad system because it’s an empty vessel in which Heyman can pour his personal prejudices when voting.

But I’m talking about a guy who’s reasonably honest and actually values personally objectivity in voting.

You guess at how much steroids increased Mac’s and Bonds’ WAR. That’s going to be a guess and it’s not going to be based off of much, but it’s likely to be closer to the truth then assuming zero effects from steroids. Once you make that guess, you apply that to their numbers and look over your HOF criteria.

If they still are above, you elect them.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

colour me a sceptic of this claim:
it’s likely to be closer to the truth then assuming zero effects from steroids

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes I know, but I think that's a ridiculous position to take

I’m assuming the voters’ guess is based off of something reasonable, like a stastically analysis of known steroid users or seomthing.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Take any random group of VEBs and tell me

if you would want their twisted reasoning making these decisions — no system is perfect and there is a lot of work being done by bloggers everywhere to highlight the pros and cons of candidacies . I would argue that the baseball writers are probably doing as good a job as they ever have given their past 70+ years of performance on this topic

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 10, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

They elected Jim Rice into the HOF, waited 15 years to elect Blyleven, still have not given over 50% of the vote to Trammell or Raines…

The BBWAA is fucking awful.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

This is about where I am at this point.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 7:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope Mark McGwire is on Jon Heyman's ballot every year then

If not, he’s a hypocrite.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about that.

He’s creating a Heyman standard for HOF voting that is completely arbitrary. If Jon Heyman, due to his intelligence, knowledge, life experience, and wisdom, believes that a player would have had a HOF career without PEDs, he will vote for them. If Jon Heyman, due to his intelligence, knowledge, life expereince, and wisdom, believes a player would not have had a HOF career without PEDs, he will not vote for them.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Even by Heyman's standard of subjective idiocy

It would be hard to make a case against a guy with a 143 OPS+ and 229 homers in the first 7 full seasons of his career, one of which was cut short by 5 months due to injury.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

not sure heyman knows what OPS+ is.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

has bonds even officially retired yet?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

well, he did get sentenced to a few months of house arrest

but he is appealing

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's perfectly fine logic

Let’s say steroids adds 15 WAR to your career (assuming you take them for 10 years, or whatever). McGwire wouldn’t have a HOF career without steroids, but Bonds, ARod and Clemens definitely would have.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

what a completely and totally arbitrary number.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah i think someone has hacked vep's account.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Look you have to make some kind of call on steroids

Either A) not care about them at all and just vote based off stats/leadership/whatever, B) refuse to elect anyone who did steroids because of moral failing or whatever, or C) make an adjustment for steroids users.

I would personally choose A, but I don’t think C is unreasonable. And if you’re choosing C, then of course it’s going to be a judgement call and of course it’s going to be arbitrary.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

if you think about it

A is probably the best way to go, because unless you have people who have been caught or have admitted doing steroids, B and C are always going to be judgment calls from people who have no idea what they are talking about.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

this.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

i see no problem keeping out people who have been caught or who have admitted it

i have a serious problem keeping out (random name) larry walker just because everyone THINKS he used.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

But we know that only such a tiny fraction of the actual users have been caught/admitted

I don’t think it is fair to punish those guys but let in everyone else who wasn’t tested or for whatever reason wasn’t scrutinized. None of us know if Barry Larkin ever took steroids. Yet he is put in. What if some other trainer comes forward and says he was shooting up Larkin and Griffey?

by OCCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

well yeah that's why i advocate for approach A, wherever that was

otherwise no matter what you end up a hypocrite.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, agreed

I just don’t like 98 percent of the users getting a pass. If Mac had sat on Capitol Hill and vehemently denied steroid use, would the writers vote him in? That’s just silly.

So I say open the doors, let them in. Clemens, Bonds, Mac all had hall-worthy careers in the context of the steroid era and should go into the Hall of Fame.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Only the very, very good players who are strongly suspected or known to have done it are really suffering any penalty here. There are tons of players who used steroids but never had a chance of getting into the HOF. They are home free. There are probably some players who are possible candidates who used but nobody found out. They are home free as well. It’s silly to pick this one group of players and “punish” them through the HOF voting.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Would say the group most punished

Are the borderline HOF guys who didn’t use and won’t make it but if they had used it would have put them over the top.

Or the guys who didn’t use and never got a roster spot.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 11, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, that's a good point.

Some of that has nothing to do with HOF voting though. If players needed to use steroids to get a roster spot they were probably not in danger of being serious HOF contenders at any time.

Anyway, my main point is that this selective punishment, doled out by the BBWAA as some sort of self-appointed judge and jury, irritates me.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 7:49 AM EST up reply actions  

The HOF is just some gold watch for great players who are famous and

Generally have made shit load of money. A fine line has to be drawn so there’ll always be arguments.

I don’t think comparisons to the criminal justice system is useful. There is no reason or right for players getting voted into the HOF or not to be afforded constitutional levels of burdens of proof, etc. It’s apples and airplanes, IMO.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 11, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a fair (and highly rational) way of looking at it

As a fan I still have a certain amount of emotional “weight” attached to the HOF, even though I am very frustrated by it. I think in the next several years this emotion will have to erode itself, because I see things coming to a head if there is not a change in the pattern.

My “comparison” to the criminal justice system was simply the first clumsy metaphor that came to mind, and it might not have been the most apt since criminal justice is far more serious than sports honors, but I was trying to get at the inherent conflict of the voters giving themselves multiple roles at the same time. My point was (supposed to be that) the BBWAA seems to see themselves as having multiple, often conflicting, roles. They seem to think they are in charge of determining who deserves to go, but they also seem to elect undeserving candidates for frivolous reasons, and they also seem to think they are in charge of bringing some sort of “justice” to the steroid problem (which they, as sports writers, were largely complicit in to begin with). In the criminal justice system, the defense, judge, prosecution, and jury are all separate. In my view, the HOF process as it plays out these days is in need of less conflict of interest and mission. Well, I guess they kind of do in the Veteran’s Committee, as you have pointed out, but that still leaves much to be desired in my opinion.

Like I said, in a few years

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Blah!

Ahem. Like I said, in a few years I likely will stop caring enough to post mini-rants on VEB. That is one way of solving the problem!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

First, I would say that the BBWAA is a collection of many indiviudals

who think all sorts of different things about these issues.

Second, I don’t see any conflict of interest – a bunch of indiviudals just vote on who they think should get it in. “Undeserving” and “frivilous” beg the question. Further, the “most” undeserving players are some who the Veterans Comm. let in – Travis Jackson?

Last, the BBWAA, as you say, doesn’t necessarily control who gets in. There is an entirely separate process for players to get in – and most players have gotten in w/o the BBWAA’s vote.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 11, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

But A is too blanket for some

Steroids definitely matter to some people and they should be allowed to take them into account. C is the best option, providing you have something to back it up (which no one in the BBWAA is ever going to have).

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

of course you can take them into account

but you shouldn’t do so unless you KNOW. otherwise its just arbitrary and judgmental. no one knows if craig biggio took PEDs or not. we all know that a rod did.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I was talking specifically about McGwire

who admitted to taking steroids.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Wat?

To hark back to an earlier thread. Thats like saying, we don’t know the population of pre-conquest Tenochtitlan, so LETS MAKE A WILD-ASSED GUESS! This is exactly the sort of thing you’re supposed to do research for, there has to be some scientific number out there, rather than just an arbitrary judgement.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'd obviously rather do research on it

But I think making a guess is better than doing nothing. As long as you’re fair about it.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

so equitable, not just.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

depends on what you mean by "just"

if you mean “the truth”, I would argue that making no adjustment gets you further from it than making a guess.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't have to "make a call"

You just put the numbers in a historical context and see if the player is a HOF player or not. If you do that, a lot of this sorts itself out.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

That's making a call

That’s saying you don’t care about steroids at all, you’re just looking at the players numbers. That’s call A, which is the one I agree with.

I think it’s ok to agree with C as well, and perhaps maybe B, but that’s pretty stupid.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

you can't just pick an arbitrary number...

and say player X is then a HOF’er and player Y is because of some arbitrary number you pulled out of your ass.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

0 is an arbitrary number as well

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

oh okay.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

not really...

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

yes it is, you're saying that steroids had zero effect

that’s just as arbitrary and guessy as saying they had “5 WAR” effect.

Unless you’re saying that you don’t care about steroids at all, which I would totally agree with.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

no, it's not as arbitrary.

there have been rigorous statistical studies on the affect of steroids on performance in baseball and there is not really a difference…

i realise it looks like i’m pulling this out of my ass but i’m trying to find the articles (there were about three or four i read a couple months ago). they were discussed on twitter by goldstein and weyers, i believe.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

i am looking. =)

i cannot prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, admittedly, but we can’t even “prove” barry bonds was a better player than tony womack, so i’m not sure what your burden of proof is.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt it's even possible to prove that

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

i would say 0 is the better number if you consider that pitchers AND hitters were using

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

no i didn't even come close to saying that

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 11, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

that's what 0 means

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 12, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I totally disagree with this

Assuming this is true, then we also have to assume that all numbers throughout the history of the game are also arbitrary. So at that point, aren’t we back to square one?

I mean, seriously, I can’t prove, with 100% accuracy, that Barry Bonds is a better baseball player than Larry Bigbie. But there’s sure a lot of circumstantial evidence regarding steroid use increasing the performance of hitting a baseball. There’s very little hard evidence to support this claim other than “increase in strength correlates to increase in bat speed” and even THAT is a very loose correlation.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, it isn't

It’s giving the player full credit for his performance on the field. Which I think is due considering the context of the situation regarding any type of substance that could or could not enhance performance on the diamond.

I don’t see why just taking the numbers as they are is “making a call” any more than assuming that nobody in the history of baseball prior to 1980 ever took any substance that might have enhanced athletic performance is “making a call”.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Look I'm not saying steroids should matter

I’m saying, if you think they do – which people are not in the wrong to think – then you have to account for it in some even handed way.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is right

heyman’s logic is the Costas corollary to the hall of fame which asks the question “did their contribution destroy the genuine-ness of their performance”. On this basis, if you accept it, you could clearly make a case for Bonds. He was a Hall of Famer before he got a big head. On Clemens, likely not — he would not have had that great run at the end.

The trouble with the argument is how do you know when they started and stopped. In McGwire’s case and A-Rod’s it is quite possible is was largely driven by steroids. Do you take off 15% of WAR for their whole career, 10 of the years, etc?

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 10, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

You've got to be kidding me....

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Has anyone here ever studied the Aztec conquest c.1520

at under/postgraduate?

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:33 AM EST reply actions  

I have played the Aztecs

in Civilization II many times. What do you want to know?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

those jaguar warriors

are pretty badass early in the game

> tebow

by cschepers on Jan 10, 2012 11:56 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Pretty terrifying in real life too

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

this is a great comment

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

but why?

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Spaniards.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

There are horses involved.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Ancient Aztec Dieties

Quetzalcoatl, Huitzlopotli, Jobu.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Jobu?

Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam

by peppermartin on Jan 10, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Sharp pointy sticks and rocks less good than sharp pointy metal.

Europeans were also a highly diseased people.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

i've just read a 30 page article which gives some pretty good evidence

that smallpox wasn’t as big a deal.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think

the Cherokee nation would like to argue that point.

Ahhh, the joy of trading Colby Rasmus for a World Series. I'll take that every year please.

by Eckstreem on Jan 10, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

... in 16th Century Mesoamerica

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

my understanding is that it wasn't the biggest deal compared to a few other causes

the first wave of disease wasn’t totally disabling. The Aztecs’ extreme vulnerability to mounted troops with metal weapons was a real problem. Even bigger problem was that many client states were eager to revolt, since being ruled by the Aztecs sucked. So you get Tlaxcala becoming the key support base for Cortez pretty rapidly, etc. Spaniards would have been screwed if they hadn’t had native support.

by Robth on Jan 10, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm. sounds strangely familiar with what happened in North America.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

interestingly

disease probably mattered more in North America (I’m talking New England here) because there was time for more epidemic waves before the real colonist/native conflict got started.

There’s some interesting stuff in Changes In the Land (Bill Cronon plug! Best historian ever!) about the complete social transformation that the high death rate caused—way more social mobility, way less political cohesion, because so many of the old elites and leaders had died of disease. Made it much harder for the natives to resist in any coherent way.

by Robth on Jan 10, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd expect a European...

to try to minimize this…

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

There was clearly a big crash--couldn't offer any guess at the actual numbers

although famine, overwork, etc would have been significant contributors too. The spanish had to rework their institutions for divvying up the available slave labor pretty rapidly as the native population collapsed and left them with fewer workers.

by Robth on Jan 10, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

additionally, the spanish used sieges to conquer major

meso-american cities, which ravaged the population centres through starvation thus dramatically decreasing the indigenous population.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd think that 25 mil was probably the entire Native American population

in North, Central and South America, at best.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

That is about on the low end

of what the scholarly con census is for the time being. Even with the population that low they still decreased by 80% by 1650 due to disease/starvation/warfare. If there were more as many scholars argue than the percentage is even more astounding.

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

I wouldn’t have thought it that high with nutrition and life expectancy being what they were for the time frame. What was the avg life expectancy? 45?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Life expectancy was pretty low

throughout the world at that point. Really we can only guess at what the population was when Europeans first arrived but early European accounts generally speak of how full the land was. Especially in mezo-america but even in North America the impression you get from the early explorers is of a continent brimming with people. This leads many scholars to push their estimates up when combined with other faint hints at large population. What we do know is that by 1650, when there are more accurate records, the population had plummeted… we just can’t know exactly how far.

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Native support was necessary at that particular moment. Enemy of my Enemy cliche thing going on.

But even if Cortez’s entire army had been killed the Spanish would have just sent more and more troops. They had the gold fever. Watch the episode of Married With Children when Al buys a goldmine to see what I’m talking about.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 10, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

oh they eventually would have won

but Cortez’s (really rather ridiculously small) army couldn’t have done it themselves. The Aztecs were doomed long term, but could have resisted the first wave with better luck.

by Robth on Jan 10, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

History would be very different if Cortes and his troops had been defeated

and killed.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree.

Of course anything Cortez personally done would have changed but Spain would have sent ship after ship of troops for gold. Interested in what you think would have changed.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 10, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Cortes wasn't the most popular man at the time

in undertaking the expedition turned conquest he had disobeyd the Govenor (and Viceroy) of New Spain, he was a wanted man and the Crown actually sent troops to try and stop him. Cortes spent alot of time appealing directly to Charles V to try and a) get himself off the hook and b) get his campaign sanctioned. Had Cortes been defeated (and again, it depends when, if he had been killed before La Noche Triste and Montezuma had stayed alive then the Tlaxcalans would have been (brutally) put down and Aztec power reasserted, if it was after and Cuauhtemoc managed to defeat the spaniards… then its more complicated).

Lets go with the theory that, Cortes tries to sieze Montezuma, fails and is sacrificed for trying to lay hands on the tlatonani, some of his men escape and flee back to Spain, telling the Crown what they have seen of the Mighty Kingdom across the sea. (No way any of them try and carry on without Cortes). The Spanish Crown would then HAVE to seek papal authority for any further attempts to take the Aztecs by force. This may, or may not have been granted. In any case it is more likely – in this universe – that trade is opened up with the Aztecs, it is the easiest way to get their gold.

The only reason that Spain was able to acquire Mexico is because Cortes acted without the sanction of the King. After the conquest the Spanish Crown was able to say “wasn’t me!” whilst plundering the new territory and giving Cortes the title of Marquess for his services.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not so sold on this idea.

what of the incan and mayan conquests?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I know nothing of the Mayans

But the Incan conquest was really very different. My argument really is that Cortes (and then Pizarro) were able to conquer because they managed it on the first attempt. There was no way for anyone to stop Cortes (Like i say, they – the spanish – tried to stop him but failed). Pizarro was different though, he sort out express permission from the King before undertaking his expedition. Thus the crown would have been vindicated in attempting to suceed in further attempts had he failed.

Also, which bits are you not sold on? I’ve got more thoughts on this than what i wrote. Couple of things i know need better explaining.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

i am sceptical that the spanish

would have pursued trade with a civilisation one of their own had tried to conquer.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea.

They would have taken it with Papal blessing. But I like his “What if Cortez failed?” theory. I like reading the “What if?” books about history.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 10, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, this is what i was getting at.

Smallpox sucks, but its not as catastrophic as some of the contemporary writers would make it out to be. What i’ve read seems to indicate that it was only as bad in New Spain as it was in Europe at the time. A lot of older theories are based on circular logic, that there MUST have been a catastrophic epidemic because it hadn’t been experienced in that part of the world before. And, some old Eugenics-y theories about Natives being weaker/more vulnerable. Whereas the evidence, and modern epidemeology (sp?) suggests that smallpox would have spread slowly and not had a higher mortality rate than in Europe.

You’re right about the Tlaxcalans though, them and horses were pretty key.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

It only has a high mortality in very small, isolated populations

It is only contagious from person to person by coughing, spitting etc, and only that for 2-3 days, so you have to be in pretty intimate contact to contract it from someone else. The real problem is that it immobilises people, almost completely and so in small, isolated areas, people starve before they can get over the disease.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly.

goddammit, i love VEB.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

we should also note that smallpox was far from the only European disease to cause epidemics

in the new World. There’s a whole bunch of literature trying to figure out what some of the early epidemics were, but it’s clear that it was a range of different things. I recall reading that one of the devastating early 1600s epidemics in North America actually might have been chicken pox.

by Robth on Jan 10, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Its kind of cool to read some of the epidemiologic papers and books trying to differentiate diseases based on historical (and mostly non-medical, I think) reports.

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 10, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

the thing about chicken pox has always been strange to me

because nowadays nobody really thinks about it so much. It’s more of a right of passage in today’s world, just something a kid goes thru.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe but there are some pretty good primary accounts

about entire tribes being wiped out from diseases in North America during the next couple of centuries. In the case of the Incas the Europeans’ diseases swept through before Pizzaro arrived and killed the emperor which plunged the Inca into a civil war that left them more vulnerable. Also the Europeans used some pretty underhanded tactics to gain an advantage.

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

or cholera

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

then again

I hear that Montezuma’s Revenge was a bitch.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

tempting link...

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

don't fight it...

(It actually really is benign)

Come on, baseball

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 10, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

they should've employed more jungle warfare to neutralize them

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Bullets are kinda sucky when you can only fire 2 every half hour.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

wat?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Spanish used these

Link. Usually they’d fire 1 shot then use swords.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Was that roughly the period when armies were using "pike and shot" tactics?

I heard of this phenomenon recently and it sounded interesting.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I knew that they used those

I just wasn’t sure if you were serious about the 2 every half hour part. I know they took longer to load than later muskets but 15 minutes seems a bit far-fetched. British regulars could get 2-3 a min with a musket during the Revolutionary War.

Personally, I’d rather had a longbow than an early firearm.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

i was being hyperbolic

but the reality was that it was pretty unfeasible to try and reload one of thos monstroisities in the middle of a battle.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

gotcha. they probably made a better club than gun.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey!

They’re trying to learn for free!

Use you’re fake guns as clubs!

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

only in cursory fashion.

why?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

you want to know why the aztecs lost?

1) help of other indigenous people groups who didn’t like the aztecs
2) european-style siege warfare
3) smallpox
4) better weaponry
5) the fall of tenochtitlan was only the first phase of the conquest; it took much longer to completely suppress aztec resistance

note: this information is from memory of a lower level class covering a ton of indigenous american history from the bronze age to the present, so it is by no means comprehensive and also may have suffered from accuracy degradation as time has passed

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, these are what i've come up with thus far, and its probably enough to get 4000 words on

I’m probably going to cover just up to the fall of Tenochtitlan though, History after that gets very theological, what with Bartolome de las Casas bleating off about how the Spaniards should give New Spain back the natives cause its all not-biblical. And we’ve covered that to within an inch of my sanity already.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

They voted Jack Morris for the HoF lol

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Under 4) you need to include

a) Horses
b) Armour

Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue parceque je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte

by alberich on Jan 10, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

gunpowder

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Jan 10, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Easy. Their god masks were too colorful. You need to have no-nonsense gods of war.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Jan 10, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Writing a 4000 word essay on the conquest

Question is “How could the mighty Aztec Empire fall to a handful of Spaniards?”. Just curious to see if there was anyone i could discuss things with.

My plan at the moment is to, in part, deconstruct the narrative, basically what Cortes writes to Charles V in his letters and other histories recorded by post-conquest chroniclers, by using other evidence. And to do a bit of military history (which is something i haven’t done any of before) and analyse Spanish tactics etc., especially compared to the more ceremonial / religious Aztec warfare.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

well, the answer to that question is simple:

it didn’t, really. that question assumes a simplistic history to the point of fault.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

well thats the point

the Tutor loves to ask questions like this, where you can talk about pretty much anything.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

oh. okay, i get it.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That sounds like a solid plan.

Turn “how could it fall?” into “why are we so sure it fell?” slash “whaddya mean by ‘fall?’” Bingo bango, interesting paper.

I do not miss college, except when I do.

by Pegasus on Jan 10, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

You should check out

this book, if you have the time. Kind of lengthy, but pretty good read.

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 10, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i read this in college. excellent book

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I read it during medical school. One of the only (maybe THE only) non-medical books that I bothered to spend my precious time and energy reading. Of course, I’m kind of a history nerd.

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 10, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

popular history that is extremely interesting

and worth reading. however, there are some flaws with the book (though diamond admits many of them).

this is a good thread that discusses the good and bad aspects of diamond’s work, as well as providing recommended reading post-diamond.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome, thanks.

I have been looking for some follow up books in the same vein

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 10, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

the main criticisms are basically

that diamond was too simplistic in his assessment (though this is going to be a criticism for any relatively short book of historical synthesis), too deterministic (which had fallen out of favour over the past several decades—with many academics denying that environmental factors have any effect on a civilizations prosperity as a backlash to positivism—but now the general consensus is that a more nuanced view is best), and too sure-sounding (he acknowledges his faults in one of the later chapters by pointing to civilizations that contradict his thesis, but by this point many who read the book think he’s found the one answer to everything).

for intellectual honesty purposes, i will admit this is itself a synthesis of the main criticisms pulled from the thread above and not my original thought on the subject, though i do think these concerns are very valid ones—which is why i brought them up in the first place.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I've always looked at books like this as a good first step kind of thing.

They’re pretty general, so of course they won’t be super accurate in every case. But good for a general theory to get you interested and give you a framework to go by. Then you can get into the more specific, detailed, possibly more accurate works if you want.

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jan 10, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

1941 by Charles C. Mann is a pretty good read

if you want to know more about pre-columbian America. It’s not a scholarly work by any means but he overviews scholarly debates pretty well while still being readable.

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

correction: 1491.

not to be confused with the absolutely atrocious 1421, which is atrocious.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Also not to be confused with 1942 and 1943:

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Or even:

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I need to see that movie sometime

I have seen bits and pieces on TV over the years and it looked kind of funny

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

We only had 1943

Now I have the music in my head. This pleases me.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

My dad pioneered a controller-on-knee technique

He was able to move normally with his left thumb, and rested the other half other controller on his knee. Then he used his finger to rapidly pound the fire button, as if he were using a telegraph machine.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, he was kick-ass at Tetris.

Made St. Basil’s Cathedral lift off into outer space and everything.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I owned Tetris on the GameBoy

and really owned Dr. Mario (on the GB and the arcade version).

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

OH man

I got so awesome at Gameboy Color Tetris for a while.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I still play this

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Hunh.

I bought this

in 1997, have been playing it, and/or the expansion set, Price of Loyalty (which I bought about 8 years ago), ever since.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

that is a great game

my roommate had this and Civ II in college and I played the shit out of them both. About 2-3 years ago I got Civ III on steam for like $5, but I would rather have had this game.

32167

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 10, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, Civ III probably isn't the most representative of the series

As someone who has spent a somewhat significant amount of time playing Civ II up through Civ V, Civ III is, by far, my least favorite Civ game.

by bailorg on Jan 10, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Civ 5 was pretty disappointing...

I really wanted to like it but I just got really bored… need to go back and play Civ 4 again

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I liked Civ 5 – after 4 previous games over 20 years, I’m happy to have some streamlining of things.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Jan 10, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't care for it much the first time I played it

But each subsequent time I played it, it grew on me. Although I still would put Civ IV ahead of Civ V.

by bailorg on Jan 10, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't like how long it took to build everything

By the time I built a unit it was already obsolete. I thought they did a very poor job of balancing the production vs the research. That was the main thing that killed it for me. They might have balanced it since then so I’ll have to check it out again sometime

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Boy got a hand-me-down laptop a bit ago.

I gave him my old Civ II disc and now he’s hooked too.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I read it for fun.

I’m a nerd.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

i read it in a class called

political sociology.

i don’t think this book has anything to do with political sociology, but i still really liked it.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

This is definitely the first place to go

if you haven’t already. Lots of pretty fundamental ideas about studying history are coveredquite well in it.

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

We kinda watched the mini-series that was made into, though our teacher skipped to the "relevant" parts.

It was pretty choppy.

"Let me tell you something kid; Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either because they're too scared, or they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. You shouldn't let it go by."
"Remember kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered but legends never die, follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong."
-Babe Ruth in the movie "Sandlot"

by cardinalswsbound on Jan 10, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if this helps and you've probably have read it,

William H. Prescott, History of the Conquest of Mexico is a pretty good read.

by Tuning in from Korea on Jan 10, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill Preston, Esq?

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Todd "Theotodd" Wellemeyer?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a Bachelors in History

I’m sure it was covered at some point in my studies, but I don’t really recall it.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

A.D.A.M

heading to Jupiter on Thursday.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 11:47 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Wow, he must have spent his year off from baseball studying to be an astronaut

and he STILL found time to cheer the team on in October.

What a guy.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   4 recs

TOWEL

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah, he just really, really

wants to get started on his mechanics. Per Rotoworld:

Adam Wainwright will head to the Cardinals’ spring training complex in Jupiter, Florida on Thursday.
What a show-off. Kidding aside, Wainwright is well ahead of schedule in his rehabilitation from Tommy John reconstructive elbow surgery and looks to be on track for the start of the 2012 regular season. Pitchers and catchers aren’t expected to report for another month, but the 30-year-old right-hander is likely chomping at the bit after sitting out the entire 2011 campaign.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

hooray!

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

And Jenny told him she's really tired of hearing him talk about how frustrated he was to miss

the WS, so get out of here!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Does Adam get a ring?

Did we cover this?

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

he does.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Like they'd give everybody else on and not him.

If they did that he’d probably try to win every game by himself just to get back to the WS.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

BAMF

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

true or false: bonds getting in and mcgwire not getting is a complete joke

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

i'm reccing this so, so, so hard.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Hahahaha

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

False

The voters may just decide Barry’s mutant stats are too overwhelming to ignore. Barry was a tremendous player even before he took steroids. Great fielder, hit for average and even some power. His latter years are just obscene.

But that said, I don’t think he gets in on the first ballot, if only because he was a world class kerk.

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Reason #124412 why the HOF is stupid

“player X didn’t send me a christmas card” is not a legitimate reason to not vote for them.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

also a world class jerk: mark mcgwire

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

wat

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

oh you mean the guy who left $30mm on the table because he knew he wasn't worth it?

the only guy who’s come clean about his steroid use on his own?

yeah that guy sucks.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

he was never "caught"

i’m not sure what you’re getting at

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

not any of that.

just that there are stories all over saint louis and other places that said mac was a jerk everywhere he went. just not a fun guy to be around most of the time. ’roid rage, if you will.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

if it was indeed due to steroids i'm not going to use that as evidence of his personality

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

He goes to Josh's Starbucks.

Won’t make eye contact and doesn’t say anything besides his order. Doesn’t respond to pleasantries or thank yous. If I worked there he’d be getting decaf.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 4:26 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

aw

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe he's just like a socially awkward guy

i know plenty of people who act like that and aren’t jerks. i mean, he never enjoyed the spotlight in STL, and especially not during 1998

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah. He's rude.

He holds out his credit card while looking a completely different direction. Like he’s annoyed to be a part of the transaction. Try paying like that sometime. You’ll feel like an asshat. He also usually leaves his sunglasses on.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

if his sunglasses are on, how do they know he's not making eye contact?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

(sorry, i've been cross-examining a lot of people lately)

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

how lawyer-y

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT ORDER THE CODE RED!?!!

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

His head is usually turned away anyway.

But there are plenty of sunglasses that have lenses you can see through from the outside.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 4:40 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

i always make it a point to be absurdly polite during transactions.

person already doesn’t want to be there, might as well not make it worse.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

it's just one of those things that fall under "common sense" for me.

i’m an awkward person in general, but even i can be bubbly and smile for what amounts to a 20-30 second interaction.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah that doesn't seem like jerkish behavior

more just eschewing social conventions (which I guess is kind of jerkish, but he’s not hurting anyone).

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

DO NOT LOOK HIM IN THE EYES.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

And poor Starbucks workers are required to be outgoing and attempt to talk to everyone. He would sigh and ignore them so the manager told them it was okay to stop trying to talk to him. Awkward.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 4:34 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

tee hee.

I would have handled it very differently. Also, Starbucks would have fired me.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

SEE

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

none of that says "world class jerk" to me

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of behaviors by famous people

are just practiced techniques for maximizing the “normalness” of being in public. Wear sunglasses, don’t talk to anybody, be quick, etc. That way you have a smaller chance of getting mobbed or bothered everywhere you go. You can’t just stay inside all the time.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that a lot of people misjudge him as being a cranky, arrogant bastard

when he’s really just a very shy and reserved individual. I think La Russa has said quite a bit in this regard in terms of how awkward he finds himself socially.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

let's ask his ex-wife.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes,

because no decent person in the history of the world has ever gotten a divorce.

Please, can we not judge the character of people that we don’t know?

FWIW, he and his ex get along great from what I understand. He’s even good friends with the guy she re-married.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i was completely and totally joking.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

but no one can possibly know when he started using

so that’s a bad argument.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

no one took steroids in the 80s

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 10, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

oh okay

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Except for 1987, when everyone took steroids

But they totally stopped for five years after that, honest.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

especially the Twins

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 10, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

the took COCAINE bitches......

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

This argument drives me crazy -- Bonds was bound to make the hall before he used steroids so will let him in anyway

As you point out, we can’t know when he started using. Moreover, Mac hit 49 homers his rookie year. You mean he wasn’t a good HR hitter before he used steroids. Moreover there are just so many players that we don’t and won’t know whether they used. No one (except him) knows whether Bagwell used or Biggio or any number of other players. This is why I think the best players of the era should go in. No penalizing players for admitted use. No penalizing players for suspected use.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct. You really never can know.

unless they admit to it or get caught.

Let’s all remember Cardinals fans’ favorite known steroid user: Ryan Franklin

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally agree with you

If their argument is that steroids are wrong and can keep anybody out of the hall, it shouldn’t matter how good that player was, or could have been, without them. According to them, the crime is doing any steroids.

That said, I care way less about steroids these days than most seem to. I don’t think players should do them, but if a bunch of people did them at a time when it was an epidemic and everybody thought you had to do them to compete, I’m willing to forgive a lot and just be open and honest about it rather than make it some sort of drawn out exercise in keeping grudges or settling moral scores.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The contortions in reasoning on HOF voting that we will see in the next ten years will be a sight to behold.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

It’s gonna get ugly. I’m not looking forward to it. However, at some point I might get so bitter that I just view the whole thing as comic relief and finally stop caring.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, already that drivel from Heyman drives me nuts

I can’t wait to hear folks reasoning on Bonds and Clemens

by OCCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention

that there really isn’t any overwhelming scientific proof that steroids actually help you hit home runs either.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

BBWAA member:

“Ha! Look at the 1998 HR race! Sure, none of us did at the time but look at it! Are you telling me that happens without roids!?”

(I agree with your statement.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm of the opinion that performance enhancing drugs

do not enhance performance at all, so the term is a bit of a misnomer.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if there is a lot of scientific proof

but I find it hard to believe that steroids did not have something to do with the increased home run output from guys like Bonds and McGwire.

It definitely wouldn’t increase hand-eye coordination, or make you a better player technically, but it would increase your stamina and allow you to work out harder making you stronger.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

So Cody McKay was actually worth -15.1 WAR?

Actually, I can get on board with that.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

big mac hit 49 HRs his rookie season

was he doing steroids then?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

He did go to USC...

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yo I got jacked as shit at USC

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Case closed.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

no, but 49 home runs isn't too far out of the major league range

70 on the other hand…

Are you guys really going to argue that steroids do not enhance performance in any way?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

i would argue that 49 homeruns was hugely out of the major league range at the time

and i’m not arguing that steroids don’t enhance performance. i’m arguing that no one can possibly know which numbers were skewed and which weren’t

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

no, we can't know that

just like we can’t know exactly how good a defender Carlos Beltran is. That doesn’t mean we can’t make a judgement call.

Lets say, based off of some feeble evidence, you gather that McGwire started using steroids before 1995 and stopped when he retired. Now lets say, using some feeble research, you determine that steroid use, on average increases WAR/600 by 115%.

So you take Mac’s WAR from 95 to retirement (39.1) and adjust it down by 115%. That gets you to 34 WAR, which puts his career total at 65.5 instead of 70.6.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd argue that. but now's not a good time.

i can dig up some articles if you’re interested.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I would, too

In essence, from what I’ve read at least – PEDs = quicker recovery time. The quicker you recover, the quicker you can work out / lift weights / etc.

But you still have to have the baseball skills to excel – if you have a crappy swing, a poor eye and never hit the ball sqaurely, you won’t be hitting HRs.

by avs18fan on Jan 10, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course steroids help

It’s also not that hard to look at things in context. A lot of people took a lot of steroids; 2 guys hit 70 HRs.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 10, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

BRADY ANDERSON

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

KIRBY PUCKETT

I mean that was just a weird jump in power that never gets brought up.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Jan 10, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

“In any way” is a bit much, probably, but I’ve yet to see a statistical analysis done that concludes that steroid or HGH use will directly cause an increase in slugging power or home run hitting ability.

I specifically cringe at the “steroid era” moniker, as if nothing else happened between 1993 and 2006 that could have caused a dramatic expansion of offense.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

posnanski nailed the bagwell stuff last year.

just now reading it:

I would say this to those people who would not vote for Jeff Bagwell because they simply believe he used steroids, based on how he looked or some whispers they heard. I have a better idea: Let’s just burn him at the stake. If he survives, you will know you were right.
link

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

like, holy shit.

everyone read that article.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

the section on mcgwire is marvelous.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

i think the strongest point about mcgwire that i tend to forget about

is that baseball had not yet banned steroids when mcgwire took them. i understand they may have been technically illegal, but if baseball doesn’t care, how can you hold someone responsible?

if they decided to ban creatine this year, would we keep larkin out of the hall because we knew he used it?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly.

and that seems to be the main point joe is arguing.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

no no no

the test is whether he floats

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Jan 10, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

THEN

burn him at the stake!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

what is ridiculous is that bonds only hit 30 or more HRs with the pirates twice

for totals of 33 and 34. he hit more than 30 HRs every season with the giants up to and including 2004. there is a serious divide there. mcgwire’s divide is not as noticeable, as he hit 30+ HRs every year of his career that he wasn’t injured, except for one.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

No, Mac's wasn't as large as Bonds'

but it was still big.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Three Rivers Stadium was a pitcher's park and a tough park to hit the ball out of.

Outside of Bonds and Stargell, I’m not sure the Pirates had another 30 homer player multiple years between 1971 and 1993. Parker did it once in ’78, Bonilla did it once in ’90.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I figure part of it was just keeping him on the field well into this late thirties

A player that good, with that much accumulated skill and knowledge, at some point is going to just know all the trick. He’s seen so many pitches it’s probably routine after a certain point.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that

and I think it also increased his strenght.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

It probably did

I can buy that it will help people physically too, and that it would be hard to prove it and to prove how much in a study or something. It’s not like adding a catalyst to a bunch of chemicals in a lab, it’s a bit more complicated.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I did one of those Fangraphs Leaderboard searches for the years 1990-1999. Bonds is near the top for homers, walk percentage, stolen bases, fielding runs, leads the decade for WAR and wRC+… the guy was just amazing at baseball and good at pretty much everything.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

true

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

also: i completely believe this is going to happen

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it's most definitely going to happen.

dirty or not (and i most definitely believe it’s dirty), he’s the all time home run leader. that guy just has to get in.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

and here's the best part: HE'S BEEN CONVICTED OF PERJURY FOR LYING ABOUT IT

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

False

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Lee smith broke my

shoulder playing pick up b-ball at the West County Y…he went up for a lay up, I went to slap it out of his hands…pop goes my shoulder. He was big.

by knifecakes on Jan 10, 2012 12:27 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

I just saw the One Leaping Laird thread...

HFS!!

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 12:31 PM EST reply actions  

40 recs for d-dee's WS gif now.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

it's like they took my dream fashions

and put them on awesome dudes of different races.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish I could pull off the flat top

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Man oh man!

Stone wash jeans, one-shoulder overalls, belt-less shirt-tucking, logo turtlenecks! And then the hair! It’s a time capsule!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

belt-less shirt-tucking is a lost art.

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

are those Osh Gosh B' Gosh's?

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

when i think about how amazing scott rolen was and how mediocre he is now it makes me sad

i’m glad we got him in the peak years. i wonder what his career would look like without interference from hee sop choi and alex cintron.

WE STILL LOVE YOU SCOTTY

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 12:51 PM EST reply actions  

he was definitely on a HOF path

You can see he was on a trajectory similar to Boggs, Brett, and Santo: http://tinyurl.com/7gd5bmq. I think Rolen will probably get in eventually with reasoning similar to Dawson. Scotty was certainly considered one of the top players in the game and a likely future HOF’er when he was younger.

by apack on Jan 10, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice Post DanUp

Some former Cardinals who might have been worth a mention are Roger Maris, DIck Allen and of course Ken Boyer. Maris has no real shot at the hall but he did hold the single season HR mark before McGwire and Bonds. I have seen a couple of good cases made for Allen. As for Boyer, I wonder with Santo now elected by tthe veterans committe I wonder if it hurts or helpshis HOF case?

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.

by garden nome on Jan 10, 2012 1:15 PM EST reply actions  

Has to help

Doesn’t it ?

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 10, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm reading my old limericks

i did one for matt pagnozzi?!

i have a whole bunch of new cardinals at my disposal now

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:18 PM EST reply actions  

i wrote a bunch of "cardinals disaster" limericks recently.

i don’t know why.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

doooooooooooooooooooomed

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

where are they?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

unpublished.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

MIGUEL BATISTA SIGNS WITH METS

Extra extra, READ ALL ABOUT IT!

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

Oh man

I’m just seeing your signature….thats fantastic

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

i thought it was hilarious

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

well thanks for the love

i consider a lot of people on this blog a lot funnier than me….somehow i have quotes in 2 or 3 user signatures though…blind nut finds a squirrel and all that

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

holy crap this didn't actually happen did it?

goodness

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

They should let mcgwire in

No other player of his caliber has admitted using peds right? This might encourage other roid users to come forward… We need to put an asterisk by their names and accept tbe steroid era for what it was and stop demonizing

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 1:56 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

No asterisks

The owners and media willfully ignored everything. Therefore it was all allowed and should be considered normal.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Would it be some kind of legal issue of a bunch of fans who had lots of money got together and opened their own HOF

and put who they want in?

avoid using MLB or team names maybe

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

You need to reread Robert's Rules of Order

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jan 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Or that

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 2:06 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Exactly

The history of baseball has NEVER been as pure and innocent as some of the high-minded moralists of today make it out to be.

by bailorg on Jan 10, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think you need to remind people about steroids

people aren’t going to suddenly forget about it.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

How should it be handled?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 2:07 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Personally, i think the best players of the era should be voted into the hall

which in my opinion, includes McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds, Clemens etc. Because they were a) the best players in baseball at the time and b) (in some cases) some of the best players ever. I don’t think you need to brand them or put them all in the ‘PED WING’ of the HoF or something, because people aren’t going to forget that these players did or are accused to have used PEDs. Finally, putting them in the Hall will generate a lot less discussion than keeping them out.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Sosa is a Hall-of-Famer.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You know his career numbers and relatively puny peak...

do leave something to be desired. This might be the instance where you stick someone in the hall just for the simple fact that he hit 60+ HRs three times and was part of an epic home run race.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That's really the best argument in Sosa's favor.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I tend to agree with this

But not with sosa and palmeiro, not quite hof material. I just dont think people are gling to be enlightened enough to not have the footnote. It would certainly greatly simplify things though.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 7:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

i said Sosa and Palmeiro without doing any research

they’re just two names that i remember whenever i need an example of PED-users.

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 11, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

they were quite good

but not quite on the level as the other big name roiders

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2012 2:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I could get behind this

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

writers should vote them in

If the MLB doesn’t want them in, do like they did with Pete Rose, strike him from the record books. While the stats count, make them count.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jan 10, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool fact:

For the years beginning with “199-” (i.e. 1990-1999) Mark McGwire leads all of baseball in ISO, SLG, HR, is second only to Jack Clark in BB% (and Clark only played 336 games during those year so it’s kind of SSS), is eighth in OBP (and in a virtual tie with the three or four players right ahead of him), is third in wOBA (behind Bonds and Frank Thomas), and tied for second in wRC+ (with Thomas). So, Mark McGwire is almost certainly a top five hitter of the 1990s.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Did I say "cool fact"? I meant, "cool bombardment of awesome truths"

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

you da man, mattybobo

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see the Public Address message from Selig now... (fades in)

Bud Selig: Hi, I’m George Burns… (Raises eyebrow) Heh!… just kidding… obvi! Hi, I’m Bud Selig, coolest commissioner of baseball ever… (Smiles) … you may remember me from catastrophes like the 2002 All-Star Game, This time it Counts, November Baseball, and most recently, the 4 Wild Cards fiasco… just kidding again… I like to tinker… (smile)… You are probably wondering why I am here?

Well, are you a Major League Baseball Player? Have you been connected to steroids? PEDs? Recreational drugs? Are you mercilessly being kept on the HOF ballot with no hope of getting inducted? Are Media outlets throwing you under the bus for your refusal to… "Come Clean?" Well, let me tell you this… we want YOU… yes YOU! …in the Hall of Fame. (Mark McGuire pushed on-camera)

Mark McGuire: (unwillingly) Who, me?

Bud Selig: Oh hey Mark! Why of course! Yes, especially you Mark!

Mark McGuire: (monotone) Why especially me?

Bud Selig: Well Mark, you told us the truth… and we like that! So… you’re in!

Mark McGuire: (monotone) Just like that?

Bud Selig: Hahaha… oh Mark. (Nudges Mark out of scene) (Smiles) We’re looking for a fresh start… This entire media steroid parade is totes boring and we want to push all of this stuff into the past where it belongs, because MLB has changed! So, if you said yes to any of the questions I asked, all YOU have to do is admit you are a drug using junkie bastard…. and that’s it. You’re in! No asterisk needed! K? Lovely… I’m Bud Selig, and we’ll see you in Cooperstown!

Voice Over: This message was not brought to you by the players union. Copyright Major League Baseball.

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

I never can remember that...

done it a few times…

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

A Rod is an admitted PED user.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't care what you guys say

Smallpox was a bitch

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

i wouldn't even put it in the disease HoF

sure it had a great peak, but where was the longevity? Everyone just remembers it for one or two signature moments

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

but it led the league in NKITNOG for almost a full century

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

(natives killed in the name of God)

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

psh like thats a good yardstick

by that measure Tebow is the 2nd greatest QB of the modern era (Kurt Warner)

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

wait?

Tebow has killed natives?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

well, he split the season series with the Chiefs

but I consider the Steelers indigenous to the playoffs

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

As a Broncos fans, I almost purchased this.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I would've if I hadn't just purchased a new Cardinals track jacket.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That shirt makes me like Tebow a little.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I just made my way into the 'One Leaping Laird' fanpost

HFS that is epic!

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Jan 10, 2012 3:01 PM EST reply actions  

Also, I think this needs to be adjusted in the glossary
Fat Elvis – Lance Berkman. A class act, but VEB’s not into “Big Puma”.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Jan 10, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

our glossarian is MIA

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

What ever happened to Y2S?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He and prophetjohn got into a thing

And he’s been missing since

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that what prompted his absence?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Check his profile

That’s the last time he posted

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

How do you quickly check someone else's profile

without going back to one of their older posts?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

http://www.sbnation.com/users/HERRO

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

he has not been on here in weeks.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I've noticed Y2S hasn't been around but I wasn't sure why.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

oh sorry, i assumed everyone figured it was the PJ fight

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't sure if something additional happened.

Thousands of comments were posted during the Pujols talks and Beltran signing. Tough to keep up.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i honestly haven't noticed that much.

that sounds pretty harsh, but meh.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Cool comic, bro

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i just don't get this at all

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

fang said he didn't really notice Y2S was gone.

this comic instantly popped in my head – he might not miss Y2S at the moment, but as the resident VEB librarian/historian/etymologist, his work tagging and classifying today will be sorely missed in the future

by all4tookie on Jan 10, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

oh wow

thats a roundabout path, but i’m there now

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

If Yadi2 were still here...

we’dve gotten that joke a lot faster…

"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig

by pattimagee on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i see. good point. i still don't understand this comic

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The one guy has terrible facial hair, so I assume he's an asshole.

That’s what it was going for, right?

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

that has to be it because that other guy is being a total jerk for seemingly no reason

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

wat

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

you guys obviously didn't get along

but it’s pretty sad to lose a long time member with almost 80,000 comments

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

YOU GUYS WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS SYMPATHY PARTY ABOUT ME

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe you should leave for a few weeks so we can find out

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

is that a hint?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

more of a request, right

(i have no idea)

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe you should consider, I don't know, maybe contributing something to the community

I’ll be sympathetic towards you if you’ll do my taxes for free.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 10, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

talk to me in two years.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Slowest. Accountant. Ever.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i gotta get my degrees first, brah.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, when you move from 26,000+ comments

to 78,000+ comments, maybe we’ll feel the same way.
(This from someone with just over 5000 comments)

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

He has not been on here in weeks

while logged into his account. Could very well be lurking.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

"the fight"

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

It's some what remarkable to me that this has developed a definitive article to it.

It was not even the worst fight in that thread, imo. Certainly not the worst fight ever. cough TPG cough

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It wasn't even the second worst fight in that thread, IIRC.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

it was the incessant antagonism between the two parties involved

that made it pretty bad.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

...wait.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

troll.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

no

He may be dead. I don’t know.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be so incredibly sad.

But how would we know?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

He is not

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Aha! I figured you were an alt account!

Now we know!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

someone here knows him IRL

i didn’t think it was you, but i could be wrong.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

really? it was my recollection

that no one had met the person.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No it's not me

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is there a link to special alt characters with your exclamation point?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

So it's handy ... guess i should go back to just the .

trick stolen from cody

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Done

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

now there's a period after the exclamation point

twitch

just do the ellipses like y2s has had. sniffle

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

...

hmm. Can’t get any of these special alt characters to show up, much less the normal ones.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

...

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I was trying to use the ælt button here

guess that’s a no-go. I’ve always just copied/pasted from Word, though have never tried to get anything special to show up in the subject line.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Until now!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

hava fun with your new toys

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!..." azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

give me an example

don’t now what you mean, and I’ve head the . there for quite a while, only had the ! there for a few days when I changed my sig, so didn’t think anyway noticed or cared.

then the ! drew it to ISGIGRA attention, or finally motivated him to say something maybe

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

explanation:

the … between " and azruavatar can be made into a hyperlink.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

sweet, I get you

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

How?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

the same markup you use here in posts.

< blockquote >< /blockquote >

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

oops. sorry.

< blockquote > < /blockquote > without the spaces, around your signature, would make it a quote.

< strong > < /strong > without the spaces, around your signature, would make it bold.

< em > < /em > without the spaces, around your quote, would make it italic.

you have to edit all that on your profile page where you entered your signature, you can’t change it inside an individual post.
< strike > < /strike > would make it struck-through

< a href=“http://www.google.com” > < /a > would make it a link to google. replace what’s between the quotation marks to make it a link to whatever you want.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at my last response to you "hava fun with your new toys" above

I’ve since changed back to singe .

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

for the effect that is

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

hava?

here we go.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

and a one and a two

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

can someone tell me where laird is in the waldo picture, it is driving me nuts

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

oh i finally found him!

had to blow up the pic

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

someone needs to mention that thread to vexed...

and see if he’d contribute.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

holy shit, looking on past MVP votings...

how do these guys have jobs?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:08 PM EST reply actions  

the players?

or the writers who vote

I still contend that everyone who vote palmeiro to his GG should have had their priveleges revoked

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

the writers who vote.

it’s just putrid.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

So, I had this dream last night.

I ran into Tim McCarver. He was just out in public somewhere. And what did I do? I just start kissing his ass….
“Wow, Tim McCarver! How are you, sir?”
“Great job doing the World Series and everything!”
“Keep up the good work!”
When I woke up, I realized just how lame that was. ugh

Torty Craig, we hardly knew ye.

by KlausChadman on Jan 10, 2012 3:23 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

i have stopped repeating my dreams to VEB

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

WAT

per mlbtraderumors we are shopping for right-handed relief. can’t tell if serious.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

An impending trade

is the only way this makes any sense.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 10, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah exactly

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

which is fine...

but they better sign someone cheap and then the trader for k-mac better eat the salary. it has to be a net positive or net zero for the cardinals to make me happy, as none of the guys listed are that marginally better than k-mac.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Umm

Typically the team trading for a player pays that player’s salary.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 10, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd totes do that

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

ugh, he's gonna cost like 8 million a year

why the hell?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

what a get. hopefully we give that guy 4/44 to seal the deal.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

if we are offering him anything close to what the phillies offered

i will pass.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

In one of the Goold articles from early in the offseason, he wrote that we were interested in veteran relievers

and named Kerry Wood and Brad Lidge, IIRC. Both are still available and I feel are more likely signings than Madson.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

we should probably sign brad lidge at this point, to complete the circle

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Then we couldn't post this. Wait. Can we still post this? If we signed Lidge, we certainly couldn't.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool picture, bro

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

cool saying, bro

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I should've used the one from that Houston Dynamo site.

At least I know that one would’ve worked.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

You son of a bich

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

SDGJKLGJELWKJGLISJGLKSDJGL

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

trying to think of something more annoying than this.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

What? Not being able to post the Pujols/Lidge pic?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

no, the "cool x, bro" thing

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I can think of something.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I WAS PLAYING OFF OF A PREVIOUS COMMENT, SHITHEADS

also, the robot made a facebook status the other night the failed to use the subjunctive in its most basic way. it took everything i had to not correct him.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

*that

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

brain moving too fast.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

azru's brain was probably moving even faster

since he’s a robot and all

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

this is where someone as pedantic

as fang would tell you that robots don’t really have “brains”.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

robots are machings. they don't have brains.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

they can have positronic BRAINS!!!!!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Too bad.

My facebook status are meant to be a literary treatise into my world. I’d have never forgiven myself for improper grammar when writing about how my super power would be snot production. Whatever shall I do.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops.

Forgot the [/piling on] marker

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

hey, i said i didn't correct you.

be happy.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i guess that's your answer.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Is there a way in this universe

That we could sign Lidge and have him strike Albert out in a meaningful situation? I don’t know what the Vegas odds on that are, but it would take gob-obliterating mojo, yes?

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Lidge makes some sense if he'll sign a 1-yr deal

but realistically I find it hard to see how we can go cheap and sign an awful lefty (Romero) in a role where we’re shallow, and then go looking for a player in a role in which we’re exceptionally deep (righty relief). We should’ve just got Mike Gonzalez.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 10, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I wish we would’ve signed Mike Gonzalez instead of Skip Schumaker, J.C. Romero, and tendering Kyle McClellan.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i was just about to post this

this would be the end of the mclellan era, right?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Weirdly enough I was going to make a very similar post to this today

mostly focussing on Edmonds and Rolen, and possible good comps.

For Rolen, I really like Ron Santo, who was basically the same guy albeit with slightly worse fielding and an identical bat (wOBA-wise) in a lighter hitting era. An interesting future comp is Adrian Beltre, who probably ends up with more WAR, albeit over a longer, less peak-y career and, even more so than Rolen, tied up with his bat.

I was going to look at Edmonds’ two most salient contemporaries, Andruw Jones and Ken Griffey Jr (although Griffey is obviously a better player at his peak), and he compares reasonably favourably to both. Overall, I think all 6 guys could probably deserve to be in (assuming Beltre puts up another 3 or 4 decent years), but I reckon (other than Santo and Griffey, who’re already in) none of them might make it.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 10, 2012 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

i was going to haggle with your characterization of griffey as "obviously" better at his peak

then i went to his FG page and realized he had 3 years of 9+ WAR (include 10.2 (!!) in 1996) and six years of 7+ WAR. damn. i forgot just how awesome he was.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, it was really sad

how he started to break down immediately after coming to Cincy.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Griffey Jr at his beak was the perfect baseball player

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

crap...at his peak

his PEAK

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahahahaha

Let the photoshop commence?

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 10, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Buckbeak?

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Perfect? That’s a little much. Had he maintained a 15%+ walk rate during his career I think we could make that case.

I think Barry Bonds was probably a more complete offensive player, but he didn’t play CF. He was an elite LF in his prime though, and stole far more bases at a far higher rate than Griffey ever did.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

At his peak

Griffey was walking ~15% of the time. His OBP was consistently around .400…that to me is good enough to be considered perfection when adding in the power, speed, and stellar CF defense

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 6:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm just saying that a "perfect"

player would surely have a walk rate approaching what Barry Bonds or Ted Williams’ accomplished. Wouldn’t the “perfect” player be Ted Williams playing offense with Ozzie Smith playing defense? If we’re defining “perfect”.

I’d make the case that in terms of “perfect” players, nobody touches Mickey Mantle. Nobody. And he did all of that with a knee that was basically destroyed AND was drunk/hungover all the time.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea maybe I should have said as good a player as possible

Instead of perfect….I am biased though..junior Griffey was my favorite non-cardinal from when I can first remember following baseball

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 6:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Still not as good as Bonds

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

When the Reds traded for Griffey, I thought they would win the NL Central for the next five or six years straight.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

did he have a lot of

leg injuries during his Mariner years?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 10, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Not that I remember.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

None

Broke the hamate bone in his wrist during a swing and broke his wrist colliding with the CF wall at the Kingdome. But no leg injuries.

Just looking at his build though, it’s hard not to see that his leg muscles may have been wildly out of balance in favor of his quadriceps, which would cause lots of hamstring problems.

Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!

by fourstick on Jan 10, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Neck strain

from wearing his cap backwards during batting practice.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

True or False

Beltre is to 3B what Andruw Jones is to CF

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

True

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Using that Bill James Comp System

Jim Edmonds has as his closest comps:
Ellis Burks
Duke Snider
Shawn Green
Andruw Jones
Lance Berkman

Scott Rolen’s comps are:
Adrian Beltre
Shawn Green
Fred Lynn
Reggie Smith
Carlos Beltran

They both are paired against some interesting people. Snider at least, is a hall of famer. Many of the others are borderline. I think both men are going to have to sweat it out.

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

Joe Buck @Buck
A car just whipped out in front of me and I honk my horn – it’s my mom. Not wearing her glasses and with her rear windshield wiper going

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 3:55 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I misread "car" as "cat"

I was thoroughly confused. especially at “rear windshield wiper”. what.

by hr on Jan 10, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

but you weren't confused at him saying his mom was a cat?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I was confused by that too

Initially, I thought the whole thing was just twitter nonsense a la Peter Gammons

by hr on Jan 10, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Peter Gammons the one who posts responses to stuff, but forgets to actually link it or whatever

so it just looks like kooky non-sequiturs?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

He's like the grandpa in a sitcom or something.

I think it will be called “That’s Our Gammo”.

Either Tom Verducci or Tim Kurkjian will play the older son who is a writer like his dad. Patrick Warburton will play the athletic younger brother who actually “played the game” and is a foil to the more scholarly personality of the elder. Eric Byrnes will play a hilarious neighbor called The Byrnsie who surfs a lot and shows up randomly, much to the delight of the studio audience.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

Have I mentioned lately that I really like Joe Buck?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe Buck baseball announcer infinitely > Joe Buck football announcer

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Jan 10, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

his twitter account has caused me to adore him

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

joe buck is just really awesome in general.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

" . . . so i pulled up next to her and flipped her off. drive better, mom."

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice post

I think Rolen gets in, especially because he probably has one or two more good seasons left in him. He has 74 career fWAR and is only 37, so yeah, he should definitely get in.

I hope Edmonds makes it, but he probably won’t. Berkman will though, IMO.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

Jimmy has quite a bit higher WAR than Berkman

But there are a lot of factors that go into these things, I suppose. I hope they all make it, personally.

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Berkman's more highly thought of than Jimmy because he has a clean injury history and was really consistent

But I agree that Edmonds definitely should get in over Berkman.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

If Kirby Puckett is a Hall-of-Famer, how is Jim Edmonds not a Hall-of-Famer?

I’m not usually one for this type of argument, but Kirby Puckett’s number are not all that impressive.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

And this.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say the eye injury got him in more than his death.

Just based on the timeline of events…

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Didn't Bob Costas name a child after Puckett or something?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 10, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

wow.

@intentionaltalk Albert Pujols won’t be with the @Cardinals when they are honored at the White House later this month. Do you think he should be?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:25 PM EST reply actions  

$5 says this subthread devolves into politics at some point

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't agree with that

that’s pretty controversial.

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 10, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

oh yeah?

well let me tell YOU about YOUR political party!

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 10, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i think people like you don't even deserve to have an opinion.

if you cant even see common sense when its so obvious. maybe you should go learn about how the government works and come back.

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 10, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

IMMIGRANTS

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Herro?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

ha.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

the problem is the public schools

everyone knows that

Director of Decision Sciences
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

O NO U DID-ENT

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

If we only had better judges...

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And just ABOLISH the House of Lords?!?!

Are you mad man!?

am i doing this right?

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

(Actually, you're British. You're supposed to go break windows and burn stuff.)

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Wearing powdered wigs.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

If Alxfritz fell in the Thames that would be unfortunate

but if someone pulled him out, THAT would be a calamity! Ah Ha!

Bursting into song.
Get it? Do You?... cuz he's gay. - VolsnCards5

by Aranathor on Jan 10, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but in the morning, i shall still be drunk!

that’s how the joke goes, right?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

"you are a drunk, sir"

“and you, madam, are ugly, but in the morning, I will be sober”

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 10, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, that was sarcasm. i know the old churchill quote.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't let him pull your leg Duke

Was inside joke re: Alxfritz

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

more like stand up and shout indignantly

across the aisle at your “friend”, who is a member of her majesty’s loyal opposition in the right honourable the lords spiritual and temporal of the united kingdom in parliament assembled.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

He wasn't last time, either.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

oh really?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

really.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

c-c-c-c-combobreaker

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Aurilly

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

anyway

why wasn’t he there in 06?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

see below

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps he has a legit excuse like he did last time
After the Cardinals won the 2006 World Series, Pujols skipped the trip to the White House as well as an invitation to play in Michael Jordan’s golf tournament in the Bahamas to be with pediatric dentists seeing 815 kids.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/cardinals/2009-03-30-cover-pujols_N.htm

by hr on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

what a world-class asshole...

…wait.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Gerald Laird, also not present.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

no.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Just replace him with Beltran

Then they won’t have to do a photo when we win in 2012. How does that sound?…

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

For anyone that 'shift+A' today's thread.

First of all, smart decision.

Recap: Jim Edmonds, Mark McGwire, Hall of Fame, Steroids

That’s it. For real.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:40 PM EST reply actions  

this is actually one of the threads i've enjoyed participating in most.

but whatever. there’s also some historical/anthropological discussion of the aztecs and why civilisations fail, but that’s not baseball related in any way.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh.

I don’t care about steroids or the HoF. On both subjects people have beliefs rather than opinions at this point. Not to mention that every year at this time, we basically recreate this exact same thread.

Just not my cup of tea.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Tradi-tioooooon!

Tradition… tradition!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

AT LEAST WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I love talking HOF...

mostly because it can’t be answered by a couple clicks on fangraphs.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Jan 10, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow...that's harsh

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 6:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i shift A'd it!

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

beer.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

what about beer?

i am currently drinking one of my favorite beers in the world (Rising Tide Ursa Minor, a stout made with wheat beer yeast and some wheat), but even better, because this is Polaris, the same beer aged in bourbon barrels. NOM.

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

That sounds amazing.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

i hate you.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i have an 18 pack of natty in my trunk that i brought for my brother...

than stole back because he didn’t deserve to have it anymore.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

wait. how did we go from beer to natty?

i’m confused.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

free beer is good beer?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

1. it's then, not than.

2. i read the post as “i bought for my brother” so i assumed you paid for it, therefore it was not free.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i butchered that sentence.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

no worries.

i don’t really care.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i really think you should just completely stop criticizing other people's grammar and/or spelling.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i need to get better at proofreading everything before i post.

same applies to email. i know the rules but sometimes i write faster than i think.

but yeah i think i should too. but i can’t help myself.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

relevant

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

heh.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

What did he do to get you pissed at him?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

got blacked out and called younger brother for a ride home.

got parents pissed, which should have led to me getting in trouble for getting it for him but somehow didn’t.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

can you even "get in trouble" after you turn 21

is that even possible?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

well, no.

but i’m weird and like my parents to like me so i don’t like them being mad and disappointed in me either.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Then you shouldn't get booze for you underage brother

Cause that’s gonna disappoint most parents

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

then have him get mad at me?

i like having a good relationship with him too.

don’t buy him booze: guarantee affected relationship

buy him booze: 5% chance parents find out, affects my relationship with them

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Well i'm sorry for you then

If your relationship is truly affected by whether or not you get him beer, then you need to work on it

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 7:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i mean, it's just on the surface in the moment type thing.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure if they own his car.

Or let him live there. It pay any of his bills or supply him with food. Etc.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

HEY EVERYTHING BUT THE SUBJECT LINE APPLIES

FUCK

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Do they pay your car insurance?

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

no.

i pay for everything related to my car and tuition for school. they pay room and board, both when i’m home (duh) and at school.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

i got cut off by my parents somewhere around freshman year of college

it sucks at first, but then you feel more empowered. they do still pay for my EZPass though! i think my dad’s forgotten about that one, i plan to let him pay that for the next 10 or 15 years if he doesn’t notice

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

hah.

i just….didn’t have the means for that.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i didn't really either

don’t get me wrong- not trying to hold myself out as some shining example of what a young person’s life should be. your situation sounds exactly like what i think a parent-college student relationship should be like.

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i was thinking about that today...

about how lucky i am just to have what i have. i know kids that have literally everything paid for by their parents, but nearly as much as i know kids that pay for literally everything by themselves, either by working their asses off, loans, or both.

i think fourstick said one time that parents should absolutely help their kid through college if they have the means too. it just makes more sense in the long run.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I worked very hard & had no help.

Ultimately I became burned out and didn’t finish school. Not going to do that to my kids.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

then you are a very good parent.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

my dad was cast out on his ass

when he was 18 and told “we’ve fulfilled our parental obligation”. he had gotten into a world class zoology programme and worked something like 60 hours a week—during school—trying to make enough money to pay for his dream of becoming a zoologist.

after one and a half years his savings ran out and he was incredibly fatigued. he transferred to a state school, got a degree in business, took the first job he found and excelled at it.

he paid for my university education.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:03 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

....what?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a cool story.

His dad lost out on this completely different future and he didn’t want that to happen to his kid.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

oh, never mind.

i thought your original reply was to my comment, not il rosso’s. carry on.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

that's just sad.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

i told him that.

and then he said if he’d become a zoologist, he wouldn’t have had the money to pay my tuition. i’ve felt sort of guilty since then for prospering in a way off my dad’s broken dreams.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

hard not to feel guilty about that...

even though there’s no good reason you should.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

At least he didn't become bitter and selfish.

I think it’s really cool.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:11 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

my dad is basically the most

amazing guy i know. i am excessively grateful.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish that was always true.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:20 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Well, yes.

It’s often true.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

is that a hypothetical plural

or do you have something to tell us?

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

oh no, multiple velociraptors!

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's fairly common for humans to plan on having progeny > 1

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Why parents would ever want to level

the playing field with their children, or worse, be outnumbered, is baffling. Evolutionary biology is strong, I suppose.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Think about it this way

It’s not about leveling the playing field within the competitive balance of the nuclear family, it’s about leveling the playing field between your section of the gene pool and other people’s (or tilting it in your favor).

Just as the good of the sports franchise going forward eventually takes precedence over temporary good of a particular season, so also the continued success over my genes takes precedence over temporary convenience of having fewer children.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

bwahahaha

ok, I can work with that

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

using the sports team analogy

that’s kind of like saying "I think the Yankees will only spend $200M next year, so in interest of not running up MLB salaries, I’ll agree to only spend $20M. Since my country is only like 4% of the world population, and the Yankees already have their 39%, and the red sox, their 33%.

Granted, almost everything good in the world today is BECAUSE of my team, but fuck it, my children should be squirted into prophylactics, so the yankees and red sox can win everything, forever. Cuz who cares about our team.

Doh.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Jan 12, 2012 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha, no.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 8:03 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

yup

i need to clarify here- the vast majority of my almost $400,000 education (7th grade-undergraduate at private institutions) was paid for by family. they happen to not be my parents- but it still happened. i pay for my car, my phone, my living, my food, my insurance, etc etc etc- but i am still dramatically more privileged than a lot of kids who get those things paid for by their parents.

i have a degree from a world class institution and barely 10k of debt. i wouldn’t trade that for a car, or a parent’s credit card, or anything.

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

and drink beer for a living!

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

if you can find me a job that pays me to do that, fuck, i'd kill someone

i should really go to brewing school so a damn brewery will hire me

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

whom shall we sacrifice?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd be ok with rui

he isn’t really adding any surplus value to society, at least i’d be making beer

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

he's making beer too!

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

true, but only for personal consumption

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

and it's probably all hipstery

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That "it" should be an "or."

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:45 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

oh yeah true.

none of those applied to me at 21

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

really.

well maybe for a very short time. starting the summer after my junior year i never lived at home again. i had my own apartment, bought my own POS car, paid all my own bills. but i had sort of a unique situation that i’d rather not discuss on this blog

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

my POS car, by the way, was a 1993 mazda mx-3

it was a 1.8 liter v-6, which was ridiculous, and the paint started chipping pretty badly right after i bought it.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

A friend had a similar car.

Fun to drive.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:50 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

yeah i looked like hell, but i loved it.

first car to buy with my own money, so it was special to me

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

best typo ever.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

HA

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

20 year old lindsay was a horrible sight to see.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

actually yeah that's probably right

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

not true.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

you didn't know me joker

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm sure you were fine.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

we're facebook friends, dammit.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I still own the first car I ever bought.

I’ve had it 10 years. It’s dying b/c my mom had it for awhile and forgot to check the oil like we’d discussed. It pretty much ran out. I’m surprised it’s even running still.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:54 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

that's cool.

i hope my car lasts for awhile. only 66,000 on it.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Mine had 41000 when I got it

And it’s around 115xxx now. It still had life in it until my mom.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 6:57 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

sad.

i want to keep the thing as long as i possibly can.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

done and done!

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

if it is a honda or a toyota i am not surprised

if it is a domestic car, i am shocked it is still running.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

98 Saturn SC2.

Those things don’t die.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:16 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Man!

Mine just isn’t going to live as long as it should. I’m bummed about it. 98 was a good year for Saturn!

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:19 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

My dad's '93 Saturn coupe is still running, more or less

Also, my wife drives her 1992 Dodge Spirit that her parents eventually just gave to her. They took really, really good care of it. Way better care than my dad’s Saturn got.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a fondness for Saturn because my family had a Saturn phase

My parents really liked the cost and the no-nonsense sales approach.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Moons have phases

Planets are in houses. And apparently, Wainwright is on his way to Jupiter.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

Saturn had an extended period in the bobo house.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember getting to experience the dent-resistant panels first-hand!

Instead of denting they shattered, when we got into an accident with those old people.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone hit & ran my car when I was working.

A coworker saw it happen. He said my bumper just pushed in & popped right back out. It was a low-speed accident but still! There was a small amount of paint transferred from her car, but that’s it.

Same thing happened to my Civic & the bumper came off. The paint was scratched to hell.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:26 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Android app doesn't do paragraphs.

Duly noted.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:26 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Haha

Anyway, yeah. I am sad that Saturn is no longer around.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Indeed.

Even though they aren’t what they were.

95 SC2 (dead)
04 Ion 3SE (170k and still going)

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, weren't what they were

once GM stripped them of their uniqueness.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

GM ruined them.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 9:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Yeah, I was gonna make a comment like that

But I wasn’t sure if it was actually true or just speculation on my part. It seems like they lost their appeal by trying to be just like every other car brand.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, GM assimilated them

I so wish Penske had found a way to make their buyout work. I think we’d be looking at a US Subaru type operation.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

my mazda was on its last leg by the time 2007 rolled around.

it was 14 years old with about 150k on it. i saved up all my money i made when i worked as an intern at my firm and bought a 1998 honda civic which i still own.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Just hit 283K on mine.

Car loans are the most evil debt to have.

by Forsch's2nohitters on Jan 10, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

HOLY SHIT

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

What is it?

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 7:18 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Reply fail?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm. I'm on my 7th car

and in 7+ years, I’ve put over 140,000 miles on the one I still drive. And it is considered one of the worst cars ever built, an ’04 Nissan Quest minivan. The worst thing I did to it was put a hitch on it, and haul around a popup trailer for a summer.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

Sign Mark Prior!

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

those mazda v-6's were supposedly developed with a bit of help from porsche

plus they rev to something like 7500rpm, which was pretty crazy for a non-rotary at the time.

> tebow

by cschepers on Jan 10, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yep thats exactly right

it redlined at about 7500 RPM. the speedo even went up to 160MPH

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 11, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

you're not going to tell me...

but you should contact me if you ever feel the want to tell me. college kid’s financials and the situations that surround them interest me to no end, for some reasons. (and yes, i’m kind of nosy, no one needs to point that out to me).

but that’s cool you did what you wanted to do anyway.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

robot still gets in trouble at 26.

and he doesn’t even live with them!

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i am so confused.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, my joke went unnoticed

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Jan 10, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

you're too subtle for VEB dude

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

was it the joke about how "pissed"

can also mean “drunk” in british vernacular?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

you're mad at your brother because you got drunk

but didn’t get in trouble?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

nooooooo

i’m mad at him for getting THAT drunk and calling my even younger brother for a ride when he should have called me.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

natty, natty ice, or natty light?

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

natural light

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree with this sentiment. the benchmarks for who should get into the HOF are so vague and subjective and historically

arbitrarily applied that it’s virtually impossible to have a serious conversation about it. i dip my toe in occasionally, but i think the conversations tend to be unenlightening by and large.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

the bulk of the thread was not discussing personal benchmarks

but rather looking at whether or not its fair for writers to count steroids against players.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

So, according to you

any thread that has an argument in it is skip-worthy. Gotcha.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure if you are being intentionally stupid

but clearly you had a reading comprehension fail.

The HoF and steroid arguments are very entrenched and I rarely find that people enter them willing to have their mind changed. So it’s argument for argument’s sake, which is fine, but also about topics that have very little interest to me.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2012 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Any AT&T customers west of Manchester the tower in Manchester that relays the signal for Western St Louis County and Franklin County has been degraded 70% today. We are hard at work fixing it and have been since 10 am

Or anyone who lives in Franklin County Villa Rifge is on fire in 4 places. If it doesn’t die down Union and Washingon could be evacuated. I’m keeping an Ear out because I am working in Washington and live in Union. I only have another hour at work and hopefully things get taken care of. Today is one hell of a day

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 10, 2012 5:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Fire is taken care of and I think the towers are fixed

And I’m off work. Exhale.

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jan 10, 2012 7:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

good work

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 10, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Minor league deal.

Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub

by Cardinals645 on Jan 10, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean yea, it's just a minor league deal

But he now has the ability to compete for the backup job,and that should not happen

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 10, 2012 6:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

...

huh.

"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 10, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

yuck

hopefully he’s a AAA backup

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

minor league deals are always good

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, you're right.

i meant “almost always” good.

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

"Minor league deals have a high probability of not being bad"

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

there it is!

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

in point of fact, the problem there was not the contract, but the decision to play two inadequate pitchers ahead of

two much better pitchers. giving someone a minor league contract does not require that they play.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Might compete for ML backup

would rather have seen him somewhere else, though.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree that there is no such thing as a bad minor league deal, but i hope that he is not seriously being entertained

as anything other than very, very deep catcher depth.

hill’s zips projection: 57 OPS+
anderson: 80
cruz: 74

for reference, pete kozma has a 58 OPS+ projection.

i can’t imagine a scenario in which koyie hill should play ahead of cruz or anderson.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

keyword: "should"

i am somewhat anxious that, despite the lack of any reason to do so, hill (koyie) will get a shot.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

well, what do you want GM's to do? not make depth moves because they're afraid their coaching staff can't

tell sub-replacement value depth guys from decent players?

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd prefer they not make depth moves where depth moves aren't necessary.

Such as last years righty relief and next years back up catcher

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

how do we know when there's enough depth? three catchers (molina/anderson/cruz) for two

roster spots is obviously adequate? i don’t think it was obvious last year that our right-handed relief was so deep that batista’s signing was ridiculous. he just should have been about the third string replacement right-handed reliever to come up, rather than starting with the club out of spring training.

batista was obviously worse than salas. was he obviously worse, in march 2011, than dickson or cleto? i’m not sure.

look, if you have a coaching staff that can’t tell useful players from ones who should only be a last-chance reserve, you’ll see bad decisions made, regardless of whether you allow these minor league signings (e.g., pagnozzi over anderson). fix that issue instead of acquiring an aversion to minor league deals.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i hate seeing shitty veteran backup catchers

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Who would be the depth behind Cruz and Anderson?

Steven Hill, I guess.

Perez and Tartamella in Springfield. Not sure the org would want either of those guys moving up to Memphis next year. I guess this is OK as depth, but please don’t let him on the big club.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

OT: in completely unrelated news, that y'all may have already covered and/or not cared about

two of the best most seminal my favorite hardcore/post-hardcore bands of the past 20 years, Refused and At the Drive-In, announced in the past couple days that they are back together. i’m salivating (i didn’t even mention Coachella!)

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:31 PM EST reply actions  

OT: Just answered doorbell and my girls David Freese 2011 MLB WS Jerseys arrived!

Fits them perfect and look awesome! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!" ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:35 PM EST reply actions  

damn at first i thought david freese was at your door

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

He delivered them special because he's a nice lad

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

in the nude

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

combining your last two comments that I barely read, I get

“Yeah, shitty backup veteran catchers in the nude”

/casually z’ing and half reading VEB

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 10, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I smell a dynamite Laird photoshop!!!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 11, 2012 7:50 AM EST up reply actions  

My wife's attending physician during her last rotation is Freese's next door neighbor

Alas, the “party at your house to ‘accidentally’ meet David Freese” plan never got past the concept stages.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

which new cardinal should i write a limerick about?

new includes people we got in trades last season

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:44 PM EST reply actions  

Koyie Hill

there are jack and jill jokes in there.

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Jan 10, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Koyie Hill

I think his parents asked his 3 year old sister what to name him… she meant to say Corey.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jan 10, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

and finger jokes

4 of them

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Jan 10, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Furcal

Remember the Rock Star pose on his knees when we won the game and then got up hugging Pujols and thinking Happy Thoughts

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Or Dotel, with his happy self, and pet stuffed Rally Squirrel!

Pointing to the sky when that HR went over the bullpen in, IIR game 7

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I misread that as RockStark

And didn’t really want to picture him posing on his knees.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

wouldn't really surprise you though, would it?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 10, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Very little would surprise me

if it involved RockStark.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

here's one i wrote about beltran (one of the "cardinals disaster" limmericks)

there once was a man named carlos
about whom we proved quite verbose
but then fatally
he blew out both knees
we hope chambers can rake in the pros

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

oh noes! i would write one of these, but i feel like i would jinx it

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 10, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

We once signed a Carlos Beltrán

Who, beside his intense love of flan
Has the valuable trait
Of great skill at the plate
No matter which side he stands on

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

awesome.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

it's too bad he's already signed; otherwise, this limerick could be the start of some holliday-pie-esque campaign

resulting in VEB sending gallons of flan to a bewildered beltran.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Beltran of course

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently, the Reds are talking to Wood and Madson

as well as Francisco Cordero. How many closers do they need?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2012 6:53 PM EST reply actions  

ok, seriously luhnow?
@keithlaw
keithlaw
Astros have received permission to interview Cardinals regional cross-checker Mike Elias for a Special Assistant role in scouting

"That's what I'm talking about! Strike him blind, Lord!" - Berk
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit

by BVHeck on Jan 10, 2012 7:41 PM EST reply actions  

They'll hire Fredbird next.

Mark my words.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Better than that stupid rabbit.

Really….the mascot is a rabbit.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

it's okay

My favorite AL team will be the astros anyway

by hr on Jan 10, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

LUHNOW THE VIKING

HE’S RAIDING OUR MONASTERY AND STEALING ALL OF OUR WEALTH, MEANWHILE BURNING THE ILLUMINATED MANUSCRIPTS!

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Jan 10, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It will soon become common practice at Busch Stadium

to add the phrase “And please deliver us from the fury of the Astros” to the end of “Take Me Out To The Ballgame”.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Steve Urkel is on NCIS

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 8:01 PM EST reply actions  

heh

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts on the HOF vote

The huge movement towards Trammel, Morris, Smith and Raines is the writers way of postponing decisions on the steroid class. These guys will continue to move up and get in because Cooperstown needs someone every year and no one quite knows how to deal with steroids yet. Bagwell, Mcgwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens will sit on ballot for a long time as the writers try to figure out how to assess the era. That’s the beauty of 15 years. There’s a lot of time to work through this.

I suspect several things will happen. A few of the players from this era will start naming names and/or the secret testing results will leak out which will give more context to the who did/who didn’t era. Then as VEP points out, writers will start to adopt an approach that lets in those who “would have made it anyhow” — however they define that. Known cheaters are not likely to get in and the Vets committee will have to deal with that.

In the meantime, players with no taint will sneak in and we will find out that several of them turn out to be roiders and just like previous generations we will have bunch of people who shouldn’t be in the HOF that are there and several people who should be in the Hall of Fame but aren’t.

This all bodes very well for Morris, Raines, Smith, and Trammel and perhaps skinny guys like Edmonds

Just win

by The Duke on Jan 10, 2012 8:17 PM EST reply actions  

I'm glad it's not something I have to worry about

I’m not sure how I feel about players who are known users or even suspected. Regardless of rules, they broke the “spirit” of the competition, whatever that really means.

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Jan 10, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

2013 will be a watershed year for the Hall

The “Powers That Be” are coming to come to some sort of decision in the next twelve months. You can mark my post if you want. There are just too many insanely good players about to hit the ballot for this nonsense to continue. I don’t know what the final result will be, but my prediction is that the HOF will either look significantly different a year from now, or the process of selection will work in a very different manner.

Just to throw ideas out there for discussion, I like the idea of expanding the ballot to allow voters an infinite number of selections. I also like the idea of establishing a two-tiered system. Those individuals who receive 75% of the votes on their first ballot get some special designation. Call them “Hall of Fame – Legends”. Then improve their exhibits in the Hall. Maybe they get their own little mini-wing and some extra bells and whistles for their exhibit. Maybe baseball could set up a scholarship or some program to help inner city youths in their name, running into perpetuity. And if ever it is discovered a “Legend” acted dishonorably, committed a significant crime, or broke the rules of the game in a heinous fashion, they lose Legend status.

As for other candidates, lower the requirement to 50% for entry to the Hall. Don’t make it retroactive. But open things up a bit. 50% is still a high hurdle to overcome. All of this makes the Hall more inclusive without destroying the “integrity” of the game. Super-elite-level players are recognized, while the merely awesome ones still make it into Valhalla, where they drink from mead-filled horns into eternity.

Finally, I like the idea of a small Veterans-type committee selecting a single individual associated with the game for Hall consideration each year. Something simple like 50% from the BBWAA earns approval. This person doesn’t need to have awesome statistics, but rather would be considered for contributions to baseball and the sport as a whole. Maybe baseball honors the guy who invented the Eephus pitch. Or maybe baseball honors the Army Ranger who returns to the sport after losing a hand, and continues to pitch in the Majors, all while doing good things for his community. These kind of uplifting stories give the game more color, character, and could inspire.

Just some crazy ideas I thought I’d throw out there. Feel free to ignore or insult if you wish.

by JWO on Jan 10, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I just moved into a new apartment and there is a child upstairs

who has screaming crying fits that drown out my whole apartment. For like 30 minutes straight. Multiple times every day.

Seriously, VEB parents. How do you do it…raise kids without ever throwing them out the window of the apartment? To you I say kudos, you really do deserve it for all the shit you have to put with up.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Jan 10, 2012 9:14 PM EST reply actions  

my neighbor has a small child who screams all day

I have to keep the TV at a very loud volume so I can’t hear it

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

not all children act this way

someone should throw the parents out the window. The child is either, hungry, has soiled diaper, or is in some pain/has been left alone for too long in uncomfortable position, or just left alone forever, etc.

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

that's not even remotely true. sometimes kids cry. and sometimes there's very little way for parents to control them.

that’s an incredibly judgmental take on the parents on little to no information.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 10, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I had neighbors call the St Peters PD to my apartment a couple years ago

because my then-girlfriends daughter refused to do her homework because she wanted to play. She did nothing but scream and yell for hours, apparently long enough that my neighbors thought I was beating her or something. Her behavior was a recurring theme, and is a big part of the reason I’m not with that (redacted) anymore. BTW, the cop got her to do her homework, not me.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 10, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the sort of thing that makes me wonder about personality disorders.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

the "not all children act this way" part?

Or the part about “throwing the parents out the window”? My comment was driven by the comment I was responding too about throwing the child out the window.

And yes I had no information to make this comment. Touché

11 in 11' √
"2011 is dead. Long live 2012!." ... azruavatar

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Jan 10, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

After a while, some tantrums are actually pretty funny

Not all though. Some of them still just totally suck.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Like when my three-year-old starts telling us that "this is your LAST CHANCE, Ok?!" As if I'M the one in trouble.

“I count to three!!!”

Nice try, kid.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Go upstairs and beat the child

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

A woman a couple miles away

recently beat her son to death because he wouldn’t stop crying. Then she dumped his body in the woods.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:40 PM EST via Android app up reply actions   1 recs

Well that was cheerful

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, you don't want to murder the child

but my mama beat me when I was a kid, and am sure as hell going to beat my kid or his friends.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 10, 2012 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I would highly recommend not reproducing.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 10:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions   3 recs

That's impossible anyway.

I don’t really want to talk about this anymore. I’ll just ask you to please not make light of child abuse. Thanks.

2011 - Year of Our Berk

by spants on Jan 10, 2012 11:02 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

WTF

you can’t beat your kid’s friends. you will go to jail

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Jan 11, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Bluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuues

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 9:46 PM EST reply actions  

This year, I'm really missing hockey.

I don’t know why, but I’m blaming VEB.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

First Blues shutout in Montreal since 1973.

Wooooooo!

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Big cheer from the Montreal crowd for Halak

Fantastic.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, Koyie Hill is OK with me.
The 29-year-old catcher, who played for the Cubs last year and was called up from Triple-A Iowa on Monday morning, had his right thumb and three fingers on his right hand sewn back on after nearly losing them completely in a table saw accident. Not only did Hill make a complete comeback, he also retained his sense of humor.

"You had to learn how to give high fives all over again," he said.

I mean, I don’t want him on the big club, but damn.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Jan 10, 2012 9:48 PM EST reply actions  

bgh has kindly provided a night thread.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Jan 10, 2012 10:03 PM EST reply actions  

Crap and they only had to give hi a 1 year deal

I was hoping they would at least be stuck with a big contract

by cardsfan_1986 on Jan 10, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

madson doesn't really do much

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 11, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

he definitely improves their team

and good boost morale with some late inning insurance

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2012 2:07 AM EST up reply actions  

effin best buy keyboard

…i went with azruavatars advice and shift "a"’d the post…i wanted to see the commentary on madson….i agree this division is shaping up to be pretty tough now that weve lost albert

by guillermozeliak on Jan 11, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

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