Your St. Louis Cardinals Top Prospects List Construction Set
I have terrible news for people who will be compulsively checking Future Redbirds every morning for the next three weeks: The minor league season is basically kaput. As I write Thursday evening the Quad City River Bandits' playoff matchup is the only game going on in the Cardinals' system.
The good news is that this season's stats are now in the book, so it's time to begin obsessively making top prospect lists. If you're following the Baseball America model and selecting a Top 30 you're going to need at least 45 or 50 candidates; to rank them will require the ability (or at least the will) to make snap judgments about players who are purporting to provide completely different kinds of value.
I can't help you with the will, though if it comes down to a low-minors middle reliever and a high-minors defensive replacement I suggest tossing a coin; I can provide the players. Enough prologue: Here's the not-especially-official (azruavatar's opinion overrules mine in the evaluation of all baseball players who could not buy and sell the both of us) Viva El Birdos prospect list construction set. (In no order! Aside from the first one.)
Group One: Shelby Miller. Shelby Miller is your top prospect. The sooner you admit this, presumably while looking at his strikeout-per-inning, 2.7 K:BB run as a 20-year-old in the Springfield Cardinals' Coors-Field-on-the-moon run environment, the sooner you will be able to piss off your readers with your opinions of the rest of the list.
Group Two: Zack Cox. Zack Cox is in his own group because I'm still not sure what to make of him. He had a perfectly decent full-season debut in Palm Beach and Springfield, hitting .306/.363/.434 with 13 home runs and 27 doubles, but Springfield was a launching pad this year, he's not extremely young for it (22), and I still don't know what Zack Cox, Three-WAR Third Baseman's skill-set looks like. A .300 average and then what?
Group Three: High-Upside Monster Prospects. Oscar Taveras (20, .386/.444/.584, low-A); Carlos Martinez (20, 10.4 K/9, 85 IP, low-A/high-A); Tyrell Jenkins (19, 8.8 K/9, 3.86 ERA, Rookie)
It's really difficult to overstate how good Taveras was in his 78 games with the Quad Cities. He led the Midwest League in batting by 30 points, in on-base and slugging percentage as well. (The players he outslugged were 23, 22, 22, 24, et cetera.) He finished 16th in the league in hits; the guy who finished 15th played 116 games.
I worry about his health—he had some hamstring problems—but I don't worry about his bat. Neither do the Cardinals, apparently—he's on his way to the AFL.
Martinez and Jenkins are absurdly young and subject to minute innings limits and sample sizes, but they adjusted without issue to full-season ball and have front-of-the-prospect-list stuff.
Group Four: 2011 Breakout HPGF Stars. Trevor Rosenthal (22, 9.9 K/9, 3.41 K:BB, low-A), Matt Adams (23, .300/.357/.566, AA), Jordan Swagerty (22, 8.6 K/9, 3.87 K:BB, A-A+-AA) Maikel Cleto (23, 9 K/9, 2.08 K:BB, A+-AA-AAA), Ryan Jackson (24, .278/.334/.415, AA)
Welcome to the Hyperventilating Prospect-Geek Fraternity! Trevor Rosenthal has a mid-90s fastball and capitalized on his preseason buzz by putting together 120 great innings in low-A—not bad for a 21st-round pick. Matt Adams, the big-bodied first baseman who is maybe the most divisive prospect in the system, was more exciting after his .357/.397/.685 first half than his .252/.324/.464 second half; a lot is dependent on what he does in Memphis and what the Cardinals do in St. Louis.
Jordan Swagerty and Maikel Cleto both made massive jumps through the system and held their own, though Swagerty had to end the season as a reliever for innings reasons and Cleto lost his newfound control in Memphis. Both could end up relievers long-term, but if that's where the Cardinals see them they could be factors as soon as next year.
Ryan Jackson carried his incredible defensive reputation into the high minors and hasn't yet gotten the bat knocked out of his hands; if he keeps up the doubles power or brings his walk rate back up to 2010 levels he could be a younger, less eccentric-slacker-mystic version of Brendan Ryan.
Group Five: 2011 Draft Picks. Kolten Wong (21, .335/.401/.510, low-A), Charlie Tilson (19, .333/.400/.407, 8 G, GCL-Rookie), C.J. McElroy (19, .228/.303/.278, GCL), Gary Apelian (21, .298/.343/.502, 29 XBH, Rookie), Kyle Hald (23, 1.84 ERA, 5.25 K:BB, Rookie), Matthew Williams (22, .845 OPS, 20-2 SB-CS, Rookie), Tyler Rahmatulla (22, .314/.390/.545, 27 2B, Rookie)
In the Midwest League Kolten Wong was what I hoped Zack Cox would be—.911 OPS and a second baseman. And age-appropriate! Charlie Tilson signed at the deadline and managed to sneak out of the GCL. C.J. McElroy, a third-rounder with much the same skill set, signed early and did not. Gary Apelian is a big outfielder from the second day of the draft who hit eight home runs in 55 games at Johnson City; he also had eight outfield assists.
Kyle Hald, Matthew Williams, and Tyler Rahmatulla all dominated leagues they were a little old for. Williams is a shortstop, but he's a few months older than Rahmatulla and dominated a little less.
Group Six: All the Other Pitching Prospects. Joe Kelly (24, 1.92 K:BB, 2.15 GO/AO, A+-AA), John Gast (23, 6.3 K/9, 1.85 K:BB, A+-AA), Boone Whiting (22, 9.2 K/9, 5.08 K:BB, low-A), Nick Additon (24, 7.3 K/9, 2.33 K:BB, AA-AAA), Ryan Copeland (24, 9 K/9, 5.47 K:BB, low-A), Keith Butler (23, 1.23 ERA, 11.9 K/9, A-A+)
Joe Kelly and John Gast are fast-moving recent draft picks without dominant numbers or strikeout stuff. Kelly is the Groundball Rate Guy and Gast is the Awesome Pick-Off Move Guy. Boone Whiting put up an outstanding season but is also a cautionary tale; Ryan Copeland put up a less outstanding season and is also Nick Additon's age, as a college senior drafted in 2010. Nick Additon got to AAA and kept up his strikeout rate despite being cautioned against at every level; at least he might end up a lefty specialist.
Keith Butler is, at the very least, the next Casey Mulligan. He's going to the Arizona Fall League.
Group Seven: Dinged-Up Top Prospects and Last Year's Models. Tommy Pham (24, .294/.372/.517, AA), Cody Stanley (23, .264/.317/.425, low-A), Daryl Jones (25, .260/.360/.400, AAA-AA), Bryan Anderson (25, .281/.357/.409, AAA), Charles Cutler (25, .333/.398/.475, AA), Seth Blair (23, 5.29 ERA, 1.13 K:BB, low-A), Deryk Hooker (23, 6 K/9, 2.17 K:BB, AA), Adam Reifer (26, catastrophic knee injury, AAA), David Kopp (26, 5.8 K/9, 6.08 ERA, AA-AAA)
Tommy Pham has had excellent hitting numbers and season-ending injuries in each of the last two years. A center fielder, he's got a lot of power and a lot of speed if he ever plays a full season. Cody Stanley failed to impress in 101 games in the Quad Cities, but he's still a catcher. Daryl Jones doesn't strike me as any worse than Adron Chambers, if that's any consolation. Bryan Anderson is invisible no matter what he hits; Charles Cutler hit a ton as a part-time catcher in AA but he's a few months older than Bryan Anderson.
Seth Blair's minor league debut was awful. Deryk Hooker, one of 2011's big sleeper prospects, slept through an injury-plagued season, but he's just 23. Adam Reifer, yet another mid-90s fastball relief prospect, would have spent at least a month in the Major Leagues in 2011 if he hadn't torn his knee up in April; he has Bryan Augenstein's chance of making next year's team. Some people like David Kopp now that he's been moved to relief.
Group Eight: Players You'll Forget Are Prospects, Technically. Eduardo Sanchez (23, 10.4 K/9, 1.88 ERA, MLB), Lance Lynn (25, 10.4 K/9, 3.12 ERA, MLB), Brandon Dickson (27, 7.1 K/9, 3.88 K:BB, AAA) Matt Carpenter (26, .300/.417/.463, AAA), Adron Chambers (25, .277/.368/.415, AAA), Tony Cruz (25, .258/.333/.339, AAA-MLB)
Vague shoulder injuries terrify me, but Eduardo Sanchez is apparently due back soon. Lance Lynn had about as good a season as you could expect, showing off potential as a reliever and staying in the fifth-starter picture. Brandon Dickson had a fine season for Memphis.
Matt Carpenter was about as Matt Carpenter as you can get, walking 20 times more than he struck out and hitting for a little power besides. I don't see the appeal of Adron Chambers who has to be the slowest super fast player ever inasmuch as it rarely shows up in his numbers. Tony Cruz hits well enough to be a backup catcher but I'm afraid of Tony La Russa someday giving him 50 games at third base.
Group Nine: Low-Minors Lottery Tickets. Nick Longmire (23, .242/.301/.367, low-A), Roberto De La Cruz (20, .264/.299/.542, 1 HR/14.2 AB, Rookie), Anthony Garcia (20, .308/.407/.527, Rookie), Greg Garcia (22, .283/.384/.392, A-A+), Hector Hernandez (21, 8.4 K/9, 2.89 K:BB, A-)
Nick Longmire is a toolsy center fielder who disappointed after a strong short-season debut in 2010. De La Cruz, one of the Cardinals' first big Latin-American signings, walked seven times all and is a butcher at third base, but he also hit 16 home runs in 59 games in his first non-GCL exposure. Anthony Garcia graduated from the GCL and kept hitting in rookie ball, but full-season work in 2012 will tell us a lot more; Greg Garcia is a middle infielder who's walked a ton since being drafted in the seventh round in 2010.
Hector Hernandez will be 21 when he starts out in Quad Cities in 2012 after three interesting years in short-season ball.
BONUS Group: Dominican Summer League Powerball Tickets. Juan Bautista (19, 7.8 K/9, 3.61 ERA, DSL-Rookie), Robelys Reyes (21, .378/.453/.554, DSL), Amaury Capellan (19, .305/.411/.481, DSL)
Pick the right guy from the DSL's nether-roster of 13-year-old shortstops and 26-year-old junkballers and you will be lauded as a seer all throughout the HPGF. Pick the wrong guy and—nobody will care!
Sincerely,
The erstwhile driver of the Wladimir Mendoza bandwagon.
Now you have the pieces—anybody have a top 30 to share?
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I feel like Scott Gorgen has been all but forgotten.
Should be in the group of injured prospects. Not sure on his current rehab situation, but I think he had Tommy John or something; actually I’d love to hear an update on him, if anyone knows.
He had Tommy John
was rehabbing in Florida. Not sure where he’s at now. Next year is probably make or break for him. His pitching clone (whiting) will be hot on his heels now.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Funny, I think his actual clone (his twin brother in the Rays organization) had TJ too.
Yea, next year is huge, considering he pretty much missed the last two years. I’d be more optimistic about a TJ procedure, but I believe he’s had a few other injuries as well.
by Cardinals645 on Sep 9, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I mentioned earlier on this board
that I think Oscar Taveras is the best hitter I’ve seen in 45 years of watching Quad-Cities baseball, and I mean it. But take into account that I’m also the person who hated the Templeton/Ozzie trade when it happened, and was furious when the Blues traded my favorite goalie for a fat kid from Calgary, Brett Hull…..
There were quite a few quality players in the Quad Cities this season.
I’m impressed by Wong and the pitchers. I think Wong will start in AA in 2012 and I hope he picks up where he left off in Davenport.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It was a fun bunch to watch
I remember the days when we would feel lucky to have just one prospect on a Q-C team….kudos to the Cardinals for providing many…
High A.
I think they’ll be quick to promote him if he continues to hit, though.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So you think he will end up in AA by the end of next year and possibly Memphis by 2013?
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
If he hits in high-A, he'll be in AA by mid-season, I bet.
Possibly start 2013 in Memphis. This is all best-case scenario.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
whatever happened to amaury marti cazana?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
After beating Chuck Norris at chess
He decided to retire atop his own face he hand-carved in the Rockies.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.1 as of Sept 05
Bilingual Twitter
by Paulspike on Sep 9, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can go there and study his secrets arts with him, as his retainer
But only if you can climb to the top, and survive the 13 deadly tests administered by the captured spirits of his defeated enemies.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I've heard those spirits call themselves the League of Evil Ex-Enemies.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Sep 9, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Each one is stronger than the last
And they all have unique final attacks.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
so that's what's behind the pine trees?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Hes drinking a Dos Equis
On the Moon
"You may run like Mays, but you hit like sh**."
by Lankford 4 President on Sep 9, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
A little optimistic about Cox, I think.
I don’t see him as clearly slotting above Taveras, Martinez, Wong, etc. Conversely, I don’t think you’re giving Wong full credit. He was excellent on arrival in QC and could clearly have played a level up. I think it’s not premature to be thinking of him as being more than a generic 2011 draft pick.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
I think we could have an interesting conversations
over who’s more valuable between Cox and Wong.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.1 as of Sept 05
Bilingual Twitter
it's not about how valuable
it’s about how you use them
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
by d-dee on Sep 9, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I could be wrong, but I don't think Dan is saying that Cox is necessarily the #2 prospect
He is just saying that he is in a group by himself.
Indeed.
Enough prologue: Here’s the not-especially-official (azruavatar’s opinion overrules mine in the evaluation of all baseball players who could not buy and sell the both of us) Viva El Birdos prospect list construction set. (In no order! Aside from the first one.)</blockquote>
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I saw it; I just don't agree with it.
There are Cox comparables in the system. There aren’t Miller comparables, which justifies having him in a tier by himself. Anyway…
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
by StanTheManFan on Sep 9, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll bite on a top 20
Miller, Taveras, Martinez, Jenkins, Rosenthal
Wong, Jackson, Adams, Carpenter, Lynn
Cox, Sanchez, Cleto, Swagerty, Dickson
Whiting, Additon, Pham, Kelly, Butler
Thanks for the categorizations. There are enough players worth following that keeping them straight without baseball-reference is getting to be challenge.
It’s nice to have a measurable increase in talent across the farm system. Investing the dollars in Latin America and early picks falling due to signability will make for all kinds of roster/payroll flexibility. I hope the FO makes effective decisions that take advantage of it.
i can't do 30
i’m not going to rate guys like sanchez and lynn because they are big leaguers. and then there’s a lot of guys on that list that i don’t feel are prospects. here is not top, uh, 16. it’s sooper scientific
shelby miller
carlos martinez
kolten wong
oscar taveras
ryan jackson
matt carpenter
tyrell jenkins
zack cox
adron chambers
charlie tilson
jordan swagerty
matt adams
trevor rosenthal
joe kelly
tyle rahmatulla
john gast
Your placement of rosenthal disgusts me
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Sep 9, 2011 1:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Rosenthal is pretty impressive.
He works in a good rythm and pumps a lot of first-pitch strikes. I like his motion well enough. His fastball is impressive, as was his arm strength/conditioning in that his velocity didn’t fall off that much as he worked deep into the game. He needs some work on his offspead pitches, but so does Shelby Miller.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why Jenkins at 7?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Sep 9, 2011 7:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Because prospect rankings are 95% arbitrary
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
i literally pulled it out of my ass 30 minutes after waking up
jenkins at 7 because he’s got a crazy high ceiling. rosenthal might also fit right after cox
They are all just chips anyway
As long as TLR and Mo are around, these guys are all just trade bait for older washed-up gritty 0 WAR vets that hit the scrap heap. It is hard to envision this, but what do the Birds look like when the older guys are gone … Carp, Westy, Albert (I hope not), Furcal, Berk, Eriot (please be gone), even Yadi? Do we have the pieces to put forth a Home grown ball club in 2013 or so?
SD
I don't really wanna defend Mo or TLR
but I think Mo has made it pretty clear he does not want to trade any of our top prospects.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
I thought Mo made it pretty clear that we weren't trading Colby...........
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
you’ll know when we’re about to trade one of these prospects when our beloved manager publicly berates him in the media and severely deflates his trade value.
My favorite words are goodbye, and my favorite color is red
so that means that Miller is on the block, doesn't it?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
not until he makes the MLB roster
and TLR goes from barely tolerating to hating him
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Sep 9, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
In 2013, the rotation could very well be:
1) Wainwright
2) Garcia
3) Free agent
4) Lynn
5) Miller
As for the infield, it could very well be: Cox (or Carpenter ), 3B; Jackson, SS; Wong, 2B; and a free agent at 1B (Pujols or another).
The outfield will likely be: Holliday, LF; Jay, CF; and Craig, RF.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
freese will be arb-eligible
Wong would have to start at AA (skipping high A) and sail through AAA as well next year.
But if we behaved like a small- to mid-market team, we would seriously be considering this scenario.
I could see Wong getting a callup to Memphis mid-season, too, if he hits in Springfield.
He’s a pretty well-developed player so there isn’t as much of a need to move him slowly. In 2013, the second baseman could just as likely be a scrap heap veteran of the type so common in the La Russa era.
I hope we get rid of Freese this offseason. His entire value appears to be tied to him hitting .300+ and I’m very worried about his ability to continue to do so. I have to keep reminding myself that he has only had about one full season’s worth of PA’s in the big leagues.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I also think the book is still out on Freese
we all know he hasn’t played a full year or anything close to it – in fact, I think that is a lot of the reason Carpenter wasn’t recalled – I think the Cards want to play Freese as much as possible to get a better idea what they have there
This hitting profile scares me too
But he had some pop throughout the minors, posting ISOs over .200 nearly every year. And he has legit oppo power even now. I wonder why he doesn’t pull the ball more regularly. I’d like to see him going to the opposite field less often with less than 2 strikes.
no chance freese is traded this offseason
they’ll wait until he replicates mcgehee’s 2011 when he has very little value before they’d listen, i suspect
i’m not overly confident we have someone who will be better waiting behind him, though
Is that because you are low on Carpenter/Cox, or because you think someone else will be traded? Or something else?
I mean the “not overly confident” part.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
i'm low on carpenter/cox
in that i’m not sure either of them would be an upgrade. between the 3 3B, i think we have a window of expected production between 1 and 4 WAR. carpenter’s defense will be at least average, but if he doesn’t walk a ton – which he may not – he’s not that valuable. cox will be above average offensively, but may not be very good defensively. i think freese is average-ish overall at worst
Don't walk rates translate pretty well from the minors?
I could 100% be wrong.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
i find this very hard to believe
if for no reason other than that MLB pitchers are much better and much less likely to submit a walk. i will bet real internet money that if matt capenter gets at least 300 MLB PAs next season, he will not have walk rate within 85% of his 2011 rate
that's pretty much what I'd expect from freese though
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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freese is a better defender and has something resembling power
carpenter is average at best defensively
so? Freese is almost 30
has a terrible walk rate to go along with a 20% K rate.
not to mention the injuries, I’d rather sell high on him.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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i'd rather not trade away the 3B
without knowing there’s a competent replacement. it’s not like freese costs big money
There are internal options in Carpenter, Cox, Descalso, Greene (last two won't get many excited)
It’s not like Freese is a proven player because he have a .340 wOBA with a .360ish BABIP in a season’s worth of PAs spread out over 3 years.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
he is the surest best
of the 3 potentially viable options. i don’t see any benefit in just handing the job to matt carpenter.
i think it’s also important to be mindful that PCL league avaerage slash line is .299/.366/.455
so carpenter has a 110 OPS+ in AAA and projects to be average defensively. i’m just not that confident in his ability to be better than or as good as freese at the major league level
did that wrong
that’s robinson’s line. league is .286/.359/.449 giving carpenter a 111 OPS+. the point remains
I'm still not convinced that we should expect Freese to hit any better than Carpenter
Matt Carpenter’s wRC+ numbers in the minors, according to Fangraphs, are very comparable to Freese’s.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
i'm not sure what you're doing
are you comparing carpenter’s AAA number to freese’s AAA numbers from 4 years ago or are you comparing them to freese’s MLB numbers? either approach is extremely flawed
If that's how you put it, then there's no way to compare the two
when Freese is injured a lot, and when he does it’s at an unsustainable level of luck.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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you could make reasonable projections for the two
and compare the projections. i think doing so favors freese
yes, injury and BABIP are red flags on freese. i’m not arguing that freese will defenitely be the best player of the three options next year. i’m arguing that it’s unwise to make a bet that matt carpenter will be the best of the three
I think this is a pretty reasonable point of view
I just don’t see it as clear cut. The more options the better as far as I’m concerned. I was kinda leaning towards trading Freese for a while but I’m not really there anymore.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
the more options the better
is pretty much exactly what i’m saying. in this context “betting on carpenter” means “trading freese”
I'm not making a bet though, I'm using what I know
about MILB translations, and what I know about both Carpenter and Freese to determine that neither has that much of an edge on each other in terms of future performance expectancy. (probably in terms of wins, the difference is almost negligible.)
I also know Cox will probably need to see time in AAA next year, and with that he’ll start taking up Capernter’s PAs.
Freese’s value won’t be higher than what it is IMO, so I’d like to see him moved for a useful piece to our future instead of trying to be cute with our depth and keep it the same as it is now.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
if you trade freese
you’re either betting on carpenter being our best option at 3B or you’re comfortable with a loss in production at a position that’s filled for free
i mean, i get the appeal to selling high on freese, but it’s not like we’re the only ones that see the problems with him. we’re not going to get a great package for him. i would expect a B prospect or an extra major leaguer in return. i don’t see that as being worth the risk
I realize this is all flawed but here is what I am (trying, perhaps badly) todo
Freese as a 25 year old in 2008 had a 127 wRC+ in Memphis.
(Freese as a 26 year old in 2009 had a 133 wRC+ in Memphis.)
Carpenter as a 25 year old in 2011 had a 125 wRC+ in Memphis.
That’s all. It’s hard to compare, but I think Matt Carpenter ends up looking pretty decent offensively. The shape of their offense is very different.
I think it might come down to defense.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I'm still shocked by Freese's lack of power for St. Louis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I realize his power was lackng
even before the wrist injury, but I’m hoping that had something to do with it this year and he’ll post better power numbers next year. Probably over optimistic, but eh…
My favorite words are goodbye, and my favorite color is red
Are you referring to his injury this season?
I thought he broke a bond in his hand and not his wrist?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
matt carpenter is the paradigmatic case of someone who
Should be evaluated by wOBA, not OPS.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Sep 9, 2011 5:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that's a frequent mistake.
one point of wOBA is more signficant than one point of OPS. and, as a proportion of the baseline wOBA, that one point of wOBA
albert pujols has an OPS+ of 153 and a wOBA+ of 129.
matt holliday has an OPS+ of 159 and a wOBA+ of 130.
the two stats are not on the same scale, so it makes no sense to say “the difference was only two points.”
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
you realize OPS overvalues slugging, right?
which is why citing OPS+ isn’t the best approach when discussing a OBP guy like Carpenter.
/small tidbit
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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Carpenter's wOBA+
is 113. Freese posted a wOBA+ of 114 and 117 for Memphis in ‘08 and ’09 although both were at a wOBA level a bit lower than Carpenter’s this year.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
nice
though i don’t remember people being too confident about freese, given his age, being able to put up competent number at the MLB level
I was optimistic about Freese.
Then he went and had success in a way I didn’t think he would, hitting for a high average with not all that much power. I’m still suprised by his hitting profile. I never thought he’d become a BABIP-dependent hitter with a low walk rate and only moderate power.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i think the jury is still out on the power
he was kind of rushed back this season, then missed time with a broken hand and a concussion. i think his power numbers would have been better without that, but his OBP will take a hit if he doesn’t improve his walk rate
Now, for a comparison of small sample sizes
Freese’s first and second halves of the season
These are each roughly for 150 PA, and while the amount is too small to be very useful, it’s interesting in that his BABIP reached human levels in the second half, and it’s interesting to see the effect in the statistics.
Still not a werewolf.
Don't point this out to IHeartBoog...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
if you have league wOBA numbers for PCL
i’d be happy to use them. it’s not going to be a significant difference, though
right, I just felt like pointing it out to add to what those numbers actually mean.
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Of course you do
but using OPS+ is probably a bad way of going about it, his stat line would’ve be just as helpful if you didn’t know where to find wOBA+
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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his stat line is not just as helpful
because it doesn’t tell me anything about the fact that the PCL has a ridiculous league average. one might think shane robinson were having some sort of breakout year without that kind of context
fortunately bgh knew where to find wOBA+ numbers and it turns out that the difference was two. i think his OPS+ is more representative than his OPS
on Freese
He was quoted recently as saying doctors told him it would be a full year before he was over his surgery of last summer. He’s just past that point now and Freese has also been quoted as saying he plans to try to increase his flexibility in his legs/ankles this off-season. I just don’t think we know what we have with Freese yet.
I'm not sure we get enough back to justify the risk...
of going with Carpenter at 3B. Freese is a high injury risk with low power and walk rates. He’s a solid defender whose offensive value is propped up on a high batting average that many doubt is sustainable.
All that said I expect him to show more power next year, and with an injury free season (hoping) I think his value could be higher next year than it is right now.
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
I'm confused.
I thought Carpenter walked in about 15% of his minor-league PAs? How many times has he posted a 20% walk rate?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
"average at best" is probably wrong
i’d say right around average is a good bet. i think freese is the better defender, easily, though
How have Freese's defensive numbers been this year?
Maybe it’s just my eyes fooling me, but Freese hasn’t really looked at all impressive defensively this year to me.
ah, i see my error
his walk rate in memphis is 15%, not 20%
so i’d say ZiPS is close to what i’d project. maybe give him closer to a .310 wOBA
The wOBA is low.
If Matt Carpenter were going to have a 15% walk rate, he’d have to have like a .240 batting average to go with it to ensure that low of a wOBA.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
wait, now
.330 is low?
i don’t think a .240 BA is unrealistic given his 20% K rate. i do think him maintaining his 15% walk rate is very unlikely, though
Should we be holding a 20% K rate against Carpenter and not against Freese?
Freese struck out in 21.8% and 22.7% of his PA’s in Memphis and has stuck out in 21.9% and 20.0% of his PA’s in St. Louis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Carpenter's is 13% this year,not 20%, which is pretty low.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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huh?
i never said i thought freese would hit .300 going forward. what i’m saying is that a high K rate makes a low BA a reasonable expectation. freese is going to have more power, so i would peg him higher than .240
it's not like i'm making a particularly definitive statement here
i’m saying it’s unwise to trade freese because he is free and we don’t know that cox or carpenter can match his level of production
i’ve said repeatedly that i wouldn’t be surprised by a casey mcgehee-like drop in production for freese (probably not as drastic; mcgehee has only a .265 BABIP). i’m still not confident that matt capenter is better than 2011 mgehee-with-normal-luck, though
I was confused because Carpenter's strikeout rates have
generally been lower than Freese’s in the minors.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
BB rate, as in, he will still walk 21% of the time in MLB
i don’t actually know, but i really doubt it. he may have a similar or proportional isolated patience, but he won’t have a .400+ OBP in a full season of MLB work
I don't think I'd like us to trade either Freese or MCarp before next year.
1. I don’t think Freese brings much in a trade, so there’s little point.
2. MCarp isn’t obviously better than Freese and isn’t obviously going to be a really valuable ML player, so there’s considerable risk without considerable upside.
3. Freese’s play (either because of injury or required rest) leaves room for a left-hand hitting 3B on the roster – I’d rather Carp was that player than Descalso.
4. Cox won’t be ready by next year.
Might as well sit tight and let Freese and MCarp be cheap insurance for each other next year.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
STOP SAYING THAT
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Only managing a .298 BA with a .350 BABIP terrifies me moving forward.
That being said, he does have a high LD rate. I haven’t run his numbers through an xBABIP calculator so I don’t know if my fears are misguided.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What about Colby?
He managed only a .276 BA with a .354 BABIP
Yet people acted like he was the greatest hitter ever, and Jay was terrible, even though Colby’s BABIP was higher than Jay last year…
What about Colby?
I suppose we can resurrect the great Jay vs. Rasmus BABIP debate that has gone on all season.
For starters, I don’t think it’s fair to cast the people skeptical of Jay as believe Jay was terrible. I also think it’s a tad hypbolic to cast the pro-Rasmus crowd as believing Rasmus to be “the greatest hitter ever.” That’s simply not the case.
That being said, there was reason to be more skeptical of Rasmus’s output last season even if his 23 homers were included in his BA but not his BABIP.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Who said Jay was terrible?
More accurately many believed he was a fine player unlikely to carry the high numbers that go with a high BABIP.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 9, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Freese is a must-trade
But this organization seems to have no concept of “trading high.” A guy plays well, the organization thinks he’s the only person capable of playing well, and therefore he is never traded.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 9, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, perhaps not a must trade
More of a must-think-about-trading.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 9, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
If 1B is not Pujols i'm assuming there would prob be another free agent in their somewhere.
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FIRE TLR!
Very true.
I think it would most likely be on the infield, perhaps at shortstop. However, I think we have enough options internally at third and second that it wouldn’t be at either of those positions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Agree
Other than Jose their aren’t really other big SS to go after though right?
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FIRE TLR!
I don't think I would want Rollins (depending on what the condract was).
I think his best days are behind him. He has had an ok year this year nothing to write home about. Maybe i’m overestimating the contract he will get though.
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FIRE TLR!
Reyes
I think they actually go after Reyes and potentially let Albert walk.
As much as I want Albert to stay I think the length of contract that is being tossed around is absurd. Reyes could potentially be had for $20m per and 6 years. Given the fact that he is younger, solves a defensive problem, and probably will get a shorter contract this feals like a better option for the team long term.
Really...
I don’t think Reyes is even on the radar. I think the team intends to resign Furcal as the starting shortstop hoping to pass the reigns to Greene or Jackson in 2013. Not saying what should happen, just saying I don’t think the Cards will be in on Reyes.
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
A "should"...
…missing between the “they” and “actually”.
I agree that I dont think this is on the radar…especially noting how Mo doesn’t think outside the box.
would not do that
or even close
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
the thing is
they’re likely to try and sign furcal as soon as possible, so they’ll have to position filled well before they know whether or not they should be going after jose reyes. in fact, pujols very well may be the very last significant free agent to sign
it will be a very interesting off season. i don’t envy mo’s responsibilty of developing a strategy for it
I view their reported entreaties at re-signing Furcal & Berkman as an enticement for Pujols to re-sign.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i can see that on berkman
i think he’s most likely to be the odd man out in the payroll crunch. i genuinely think furcal would be good sign and i think the front office knows it. jackson isn’t ready and no one except the fan club would be comfortable declaring greene the starter on opening day. descalso isn’t a shortstop and now we’re out of options, unless seattle has someone they would send our way for a young power arm with control issues
I'm more enthusiastic about re-signing Furcal than Berkman,
because of what I anticipate the amount and length of each of their respective deals to be.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
what do you think they sign for?
i see furcal getting a guranteed $4MM for 1 year including a option/buyout and appearance incentives that could bring him into the $6-7MM range.
berkman, i dunno. 2 year contract worth $20-25MM? i’m kind of ambivalent on berkman to be honest. i feel like we kind of hit the jackpot on signing him this year. anything more than another one-year deal is pushing our luck, i beleive. i would take him on a 1-year deal worth $10-13MM including and option/buyout, though. maybe closer to 10 if we give him a blanket NTC
I had anticipated a higher salary for Furcal.
But, not by much. I was thinking $5-6MM guaranteed, up to $9MM with incentives, and a club option for 2013 with a low buyout.
With Berkman, I think you’re about right. I’m also not wild about anything longer than a year but Berkman will get at least two years somewhere, if not three.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i just think this season really hurt furcal's value
he missed almost the whole thing and his offensive line hasn’t really been that good since coming back. i hope the cardinals aren’t paying him $9MM next year
Berkman said he'd be willing to sign a 1yr-deal.
Frankly, I wouldn’t sign him to anything over that.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
That’s pretty awesome. When did he say it?
I kind of fear the team would offer him more than that anyway because they’re oh-so-nice.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
“One year suits me fine,” he said. “I just want it to be in a good situation. I’ve played in good situations pretty much my entire career. I don’t want to change that now.”
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome
A one year deal would be fine with me, assuming it’s not for 18 million dollars or something like that. Craig will get playing time filling in at various positions and maybe Berkman will rest more gradual age/platoon issues, freeing up more PAs for Craig.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I'm worried about pushing out luck with Berkman too
I’m really torn on signing him again. Before I heard the first rumors that we might sign him, Berkman being a Cardinal was one of those things I thought would be really cool but would absolutely never happen for obvious reasons. “Man, wouldn’t it be cool if Berkman converted back into an outfielder, and then we somehow got him, and then Berkman and Pujols could be on the same team? On a totally unrelated note, this Matt Holliday guy always seems to hit awesome against us.” Etc.
So having Berkman is like a small dream fulfilled. I can’t be 100% rational about that sort of thing, as a fan.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Sep 9, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Rationally, I suspect we should quit well we’re ahead and hey, look, here’s Allen Craig, totally serviceable right fielder.
Emotionally, it’s Lance Berkman! He’s my favorite player on the team this year, and he totally carried the whole squad on his back at a few points! How could we let him go?…
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
The only way Berk should come back for longer than one year...
is if AP doesn’t.
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
Oh come on. That's not really true at all Gibby.
This year’s team featured David Freese (who we traded an older washed-up veteran FOR), Allen Craig, Lance Lynn, Skip Schumaker, Dan Descalso, Jaime Garcia, Jason Motte, Mitch Boggs, Albert Pujols, Yadier Molina, Jon Jay, Kyle McClellan, Fernando Salas, ? Sanchez, Tyler Greene, and the list goes on.
In 2013, we could have this:
1b- Adams
2b- Craig
3b-Freese
SS-Jackson if he hits next year or mabye Greene if he can get his bat together too
lf-Holliday
cf-Jay
rf-Chambers/Brown/insert free agent
c-Yadi/Perez
Bench of Descalso, Greene, Perez, and one of Chambers/Brown/free agent
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
That team would basically be Old Man Holliday and the Farmhands.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Yeah, but I think that team could win as many games as
this one did. I think that’s an 85 win team. That gives us a hell of a base to build from.
I don’t think they would score a ton of runs, but Jackson profiles as the only substandard bat in the lineup. Of course we’d need help at RF, but that’s pretty much it and our rotation looks pretty stout for 2013 if we can retain WW.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
you could put
Craig in right (where he probably belongs) and Wong at second
Yeah, but I don't think Wong will be with the big club by 2013.
I think Craig will be fine at 2b, and Descalso will be a fine defensive replacement for him anyway.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
Audry Perez?
He was terrible in Springfield this year (88wOBA+). He’s young though, so maybe he’ll improve. That 2% walk rate the last two years is, uh, concerning.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point on the total roster
My concern is that most of the heavy lifting on the club is done by aging vets who may not return. Plus, history shows that Mo and TLR are happy to employ the likes of Randy Wynn, Miles, Farnklin, Batista, Trevor Miller, Tallet, etc. I am hopeful that the contributions of Salas, Freese, etc. have turned a page at StL to give the youth a chance. But, we do have a great deal to replace … the heart of the order, our number 1 pitcher, an older and mediocre middle infield … if not this year, within a couple of years.
SD
this is half true
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's weird how Matt Adams' end of year line looks remarkably similar to the line he put up last year
The pessimist in me says that he just had a hot start and then basically did what we should have expected him to do.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
the lines are quite similar
But he did skip a level so he kept the same output while being bit young for his league. I think we potentially have the most to learn about Adams of all the AFL players.
Yeah, after thinking about it it wasn't quite fair to say he "did what we should have expected"
because he replicated a set of numbers at a higher level. That’s definitely a positive. If he keeps replicating that line all through the majors then he’ll basically hit like Albert did this year (obviously Albert is actually a good defensive 1B and a good base runner too and had the awful start, etc. etc.) and that’s not too shabby. And he’s two years younger than the average AA hitter, so that’s a big plus also.
It’s just crazy how different the two halves were. That’s baseball for you.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again.
I hope the Cardinals shop Adams this winter because I think he is at his maximum value right now.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that's kind of how I feel
His hitting so far doesn’t look too too different from Allen Craig. I think he’s a tad younger at each level, a little lower average, a few less walks, probably a bit more power/ISO. Only, Craig can at least pretend to play multiple positions and nobody seems to have that illusion about Adams. Good trade candidate I think, a sell-high scenario.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Could work out nicely
if we retain Pujols and he has a good AFL. There’ll never be a better moment to move him.
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
Package Adams and Freese for Alexei Ramirez (best fit for a trade i guess)?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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Ramirez is older than you think he is.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
And by "you" I meant the figurative "you" and not "you" specifically, CodyG.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Very real chance this is true.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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He's entering his age 30 season.
For some reason I thought he was Pujols’s age. My mistake.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
oh, I thought you were trying to say he's lying about his age.
I knew he was like 29ish…
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I must have confused him with another player.
For the life of me, I can’t remember who it was, though.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Maybe
36-year old Alex Ramirez, who hasn’t played in the majors since 2000, and who was horrible when he did play?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Sep 9, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No. Not that guy.
It’s an active player. This is really bothering me now.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He's only listed as 29 this hear
Tagged for 4+ fWAR the last two years. Just about average hitting + good defense + SS = pretty good player.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I feel like Hardcore Legend was a big fan of picking him up when he was first available
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Great Post!
I am a sucker for the prospect lists and really enjoy the way you put this together… I will read it today and then three or four more times before next season starts…
congrats also, Mr. Up
after reading many top 20 (or 30) lists in order, I really liked the way you put your list together – fun (and informative) reading
Not to be that guy, but
is the first number listed for Taveras his age? Isn’t he only 19? Doesn’t this make him even more awesomer?
It is
and he is most awesomest.
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
sorry, should say "he is"
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
Crazy
He could be a post-First Gulf War baby. He was too young to really watch Tiny Toons when it was originally on. Madness!
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
(That is, if he wasn't from the U.S. instead of the Dominican Republic)
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
VEB "we like em young"
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
Heh
I was actually looking at the data for the Pacific League, Midwest League, and Texas league just now on B-Ref. Our teams are definitely very young for their leagues.
Memphis’ pitching staff is the youngest in the Pacific League, and their hitters are the third youngest. Springfield has the youngest pitching staff in the Texas League (the only team whose pitchers’ average age is below 23 years) and the second youngest hitters (23.5 years versus 23.4 for the Travelers). The Quad Cities pitching staff is middle of the road, but the hitters are the second youngest in the Midwest League.
Not sure what this all means. Some of the differences seem pretty significant to me since we’re talking about data for entire teams. There are obviously going to be some different organizational philosophies at work too. Just thought it was interesting.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
also, why in the world is Memphis in a league called
“The Pacific Coast League?”
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
And the same reason the Big Ten has twelve teams and
the Pacific Athletic Conference has Colorado (and may soon have Oklahoma): expansion/consolidation.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the question was rhetorical
but thanks for the informative answer. One would think they would take these things into consideration when naming leagues/conferences
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I don't understand why they don't re-name conferences after consolidation.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Branding
i.e. the Big 10 has spent a lot of money developing the Big 10 brand and trademark. However, I think if you end up with the Super Conferences there may be some re-naming.
I understand that college football is all about tradition, etc.
Didn’t the Big12Ten start out as the Big 6? I think it’d be funny if they had simply stuck with that name throughout.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Also, the "Legends" and "Leaders" division names are dumb.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
At least Springfield is within a few hours/hundred miles of Texas...
The Pacific coast is what 24+ hr drive and 1500+ miles from Memphis.
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
also see: Utah Jazz, Los Angeles Lakers
by peppermartin on Sep 9, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I want a swap between Utah, New Orleans, and Charlotte.
Utah Bobcats, New Orleans Jazz, and the Charlotte Hornets.
Perfect.
Still not a werewolf.
But Utah is the Wasp's Nest State, or something like that.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The Utah Hives would be hilarious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The ages are presented in a confusing way, IMO
And make most of the prospects appear a year older than what they are. For example, Hector Hernandez is 20 and his stats are for his age 20 season. Next year his stats will be for his age 21 season. So, it’s confusing (at least to me) to list his age 20 stats but call him 21, because that’s how old he’ll be when starting next year. Same thing for Anthony Garcia, Nick Longmire and many of the others listed.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
if I did it right
everyone’s age is his 2012 “baseball age,” which is how he’ll be listed in a 2012 prospect list.
Nice
If he makes it up to Springfield next year he could put up pretty insane numbers in that park.
Throw more than 3 innings this year with a better fastball?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
No, Danup already said seth blair.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Maybe Franciso Samuel?
/assuming we’re just randomly listing power-armed Latino pitchers who can’t find the plate
by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 9, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Richard Mendoza
/ i have no idea about his stuff but in 8.2 IP he has 19 walks and 20 wild pitches.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
No I'm not!!!
I’m thinking of the pride of Pima Community College.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=delgad001ram
This guy could be the best pitcher from PCC since DJ Carrasco.
Geez, we get it, you have a total crush on this guy
(Totally kidding)
Anyway, thanks for linking to that, I don’t know if I had ever looked him up before or even heard of him.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I'm not too crazy for Bear Grylls but I'm glad I'm not beeing glared at by Joe Mauer anymore
it was like he was mocking Cardinal fans for setting the contract bar so high for Pujols. Jerk.
I don't have any idea what a bear grylls is
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
this has been done a lot
freakonomics
some research on it here
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
As if on cue after my expressing my dislike for Roddick (even though he is an American) because of the way he carries himself,
Roddick flips out at the U.S. Open over a wet court.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Supposedly Nadal one-upped that
but I can’t find video.
I read that he yelled at the U.S. Open official that it's always about the money and not players' health or something.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Sep 9, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But he won
And he’s awesome
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Sep 9, 2011 1:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you forgot...
…Roddicks first name – “Life Winner”
please.
roddick’s job is to play tennis. they weren’t giving him adequate working conditions, so he got pissed.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 9, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i just dropped ALL my keys down the elevator shaft.. how crafty am i!
fuuuuuuuuu
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Awesome
I’m sure the building management will get right on with retrieving them for you
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Sep 9, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Go make a pan of brownies
then find the maintenance guys. They just need to stop the elevator then go open the bottom doors.
What
How
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
She was trying to push the dead body down the shaft
and ….
I’ve said too much already.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
This is not true
The Brewers acquired Yuni Betancourt and apparently are still going to win the NL Central.
at least you're not my brother
he broke his ankle going down some rainy stairs today
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, that sucks
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
is that going to be a big problem with his job and such?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
he is an art director/web designer so it will be more of an inconvenience
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
well, at least that's good
i hope he has a pujolsian type of recovery
and tell him to stay out of the weight room
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
thank you
my little brother thinks that I hate him but I’d probably take a bullet for him
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 10, 2011 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Justin Wright is probably a guy who should be on this
future LOOGY!
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Can he walk or hit the one batter he faces?
If there is one thing I’ve learned this year from our LOOGYs is that is what they are brought in to do
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Sep 9, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I went to school with a guy by that name
Granted that was decades ago.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 9, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I am on the Boone Whiting band wagon
solely because that is a great baseball name. I’m changing my name to Boone Whiting.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Sep 9, 2011 3:46 PM EDT reply actions
Stavinoha had the most GIDP this year with 19
obviously he deserved to be up here with the rest of the team.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I mean
There are a million different arguments you can make that Stavinoha shouldn’t be on the September roster (personally, I don’t really care if he’s here or not)
But that’s a really shitty argument, considering who leads our major league team in GIDP
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Oh wait I think I misunderstood
CARRY ON
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
To be fair, that was very misleading of you, Mr. G
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
whatever. point to cody.
if you’re not careful, he will begin his march to victory.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
it was very easy to understand, you're just a dumbass.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 9, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Nyjer Morgan
Chris Carpenter’s response
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Sep 9, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Junior Agustin is a pretty cool name, not to mention he has a .426 OBP
and is only hitting .220
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I honestly don't understand why the Cardinals haven't come up with this idea
I mean, we’re not geniuses and we can see it as clear as day.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Just another reason
not to go to Wrigley
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Have you been introduced to the interrobang ‽
Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL
by The Continental on Sep 9, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
See, Chicago's bad food safety is so great due to the peculiar nature of the city itself
A smorgasbord (pun intended!) of various ethnic neighborhoods provides a rich diversity, giving rise to a veritable melting pot of culinary sanitation and quality negligence.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
it also gives reason to why Chicago has so many bars
it takes a lot of alcohol to kill off the E. Coli
then there's NYC
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
they don't even have alley for their dumpsters
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
the smell that hit me in the face when they opened the wrigley gates
was enough to make me say no to any food
i’m now glad i did
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
i think
this is my new favorite shot
too bad i gotta get rid of my camera this winter
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
by d-dee on Sep 9, 2011 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i'm selling everything - body, wide angle lens, telephoto, lens hoods, extra batteries, filters, remote trigger
i want to upgrade to a canon d7 but don’t know that i’ll be able to afford it by spring (i’ll do my damnest, that’s for sure)
however, i wouldn’t sell it to you, i’ve got at least some 40,000 shots on it. estimated shutter life for a 550d is around 50,000
it would be good enough for some occasional shooting for someone but not for a heavy user. i’d be doing you a disservice
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
damn. and here I was being really impressed with the
Nikon Coolpix P500 my in-laws just gave my wife and I for a joint birthday present. J/K I actually love the thing and i just got it. it’s the first ‘real’ camera I’ve ever had.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
it's a very decent camera, i'd probably like to have it as a secondary
i just like to overdo things for no reason – i heard “moisture resistant magnesium alloy body” and i started salivating over the canon 7d
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Well
its a Cannon anyway so it won’t work with the Nikon. Mainly looking for lenses. My wife wants every lens you just mentioned. Maybe I should buy the lenses from you and buy a new camera!
did you know that you can use nikon lenses on canon cameras (with a small adapter wing)
but not the other way around
try to buy new lenses if possible, because focus starts to creep the more you use them. and always buy image stabilized (vibration resistant) lenses
i wouldn’t sell you any of my equipment because although it’s in great condition, it’s seen heavy use
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
You mean "get rid of" get frid of?
or ’you’re getting a new one’, get rid of?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That is awesome.
They must be combining power for some sort of double attack.
Possibly taught to them by Amaury Marti Cazana.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Amaury knows how to do the double (and triple) attack all by himself
But he swore an oath never to teach that to anybody, because the world wasn’t ready.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
today i saw a license plate that said
AMIRITE
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
heh.
Did you watch the season finale of Suits? Now I have to wait til next summer to see what happens next. 9 months is too effing long.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
its on my DVR
no spoilers!
i hope it comes back next year.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
it was too good not to.
Besides they left a helluva cliffhanger.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
lineup
Furcal 6
Jay 8
Pujols 3
Holliday 7
Berkman 8
Freese 5
Schumaker 4
Molina 2
Jackson 9
I’m going to the game and really hoped Greene would start…. poop. Hopefully the rain won’t cause any delays.
another in a long line up examples that Mo and TLR do not see eye to eye
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Sep 9, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
what gave it away?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
wait
berk is in right, correct? not jackson?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
It's TLR's most experimental lineup to date
two center fielders, pitcher in right
Schumaker will be pitching from somewhere in between first and second
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
element of surprise ftw
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
geeze guys
clearly this is a typo
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Sep 9, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
typos in the lineup are a playground for the imagination
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
who the hell is pitching?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Molina is going to toss the ball from behind them.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 9, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
oh we're so gonna go 19-0 for the rest of the season
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
i didn't mean to be snotty. i would not be at all surprised if berkman started at cf these days
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Goold on twitter:
Big O: Oscar Taveras officially awarded Midwest League batting title at .351
Taveras hit .386 overall but lacked plate apps to qualify for title. As in MLB they add “hitless” at-bats to get to minimum PAs. Hence .351
Holy crap did he have a monster season. By my back-of-the-envelope calculation, they added on 31 imaginary hitless plate appearances to his tally, and he still took the title.
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
what does Walton's response mean?
BA adjusted from .386 to .351. RT @dgoold: Oscar Taveras officially awarded Midwest League batting title at .369. #stlminors #STLcards
argg nvm
Derrick Goold
Taveras hit .386 overall but lacked plate apps to qualify for title. As in MLB they add “hitless” at-bats to get to minimum PAs. Hence .351.
im dumb
i saw goold initial tweet that had a typo in it and they didn’t match up – thought you had posted that one, plus i hadnt seen the corrected tweet.
nothing to see here
He could have just stood there and not done anything for as many extra PAs as he needed to qualify
and he still would have won the batting title?
Damn.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Well at least he was honest
I read an article the other day about the best way to eliminate Morgan was to get inside his head a little, a-la Zambrano, and that Morgan would take care of the rest.
I’m not defending Carp, as he’s been known to show emotion on the mound, but perhaps Morgan had it coming. I don’t have a problem with Carp showing emotion, just as I don’t have a problem with a batter getting a key hit in a game, but I’ve watched all the games this year, especially with the Brewers, and Carpenter has a point about Morgan. While the cameras don’t catch every single detail, I’ve noticed more than once Morgan running his mouth and Carpenter not saying anything about it.
Morgan has to learn to just deal with things and conquer his short-man syndrome. He’s playing above-average this year, which is the reason that I believe no one has really put any attention on his “cute” alter-egos. He’s a nutcase and always has been, and when he production dips, whether this year or next, the real Nyjer will come out.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Sep 9, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Nyjer Morgan may actually have a problem
In the same sense that Big Z and Milton Bradley may actually have problems.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 9, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Carp doesn't give a fuck
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Trevor rosenthal will have more successful ML
Career than Tyrell Jenkins.
True or False
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Sep 9, 2011 7:16 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
That's just a silly question
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I think it's genius
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Sep 9, 2011 8:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ECHO)))))))))))))))))))))))
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:30 PM EDT reply actions
(((((((((((((((((((((((OHCO
Is Jon Jay the next Willie McGee? Is Arthur Rhodes the next Arthur Rhodes?
(the halls of VEB do strange things)
Is Jon Jay the next Willie McGee? Is Arthur Rhodes the next Arthur Rhodes?
oh man
I got to see a Sun Ra based music project at jazz fest on sunday. absolutely amazing
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Very cool! I've been listening to Heliocentric Worlds. Good stuff!
Is Jon Jay the next Willie McGee? Is Arthur Rhodes the next Arthur Rhodes?
this band was called Myth Science Assembly
including this guy http://jasonadasiewicz.com/ and Mary Halvorsen
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
they based the music off of an unreleased jam with sun ra and 2 other players from a while ago
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I wish I didn't live in such a crappy city.
Well, actually it wouldn’t matter. It’s not like I was down at the Bistro much when I lived in StL.
Is Jon Jay the next Willie McGee? Is Arthur Rhodes the next Arthur Rhodes?
Luckily I live close to downtown and the free shows
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
kinda hope it's cancelled
gonna miss the game
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't think there's even a tarp on the field
they’ll play
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Carp pitching to Sponge Bob, huh?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Top 10 Im watching (or favs I guess)
Miller
Martinez
Tavarez
R.Jackson
Cox
Wong
Tilson
McElroy
Swaggerty
Cleto
"You may run like Mays, but you hit like sh**."
by Lankford 4 President on Sep 9, 2011 7:58 PM EDT reply actions
So uh
Who has access to ESPN3 and wants to be generous and help me get remote access to it?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
To elaborate
All that needs to happen is you log in to my ESPN account, go to espn3.com, click “Remote Access,” and then sync up your ISP to my ESPN account. I have TimeWarner internet, but not cable, so I can’t get ESPN 3 =(
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
What's a little altruism between internet strangers?
Eh?
Eh?!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Oh hey we're playing
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Miss Colby =(
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
How the crap did Berk catch that
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Edwin has been pretty bad for us
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
What a great jump by Albert!
I’m watching him do everything!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Well
Except “not hit into eight thousand double plays”
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Goddammit Holliday
Actually, where was the 3B
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Amount of empty seats is disappointing
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Sep 9, 2011 8:25 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Folks tend to be a little late to games
Especially when it’s be rainy/overcast all day
11 in '11
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 9, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
He's actually done better than I've expected
And a part of our success of late I’d say
11 in '11
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 9, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
They would probably need to platoon with the injuries
I mean spelling each other while on DL. Unless they occur all together like several this season. But yes perhaps.
11 in '11
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 9, 2011 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not
But he may not be “Green” much longer. They needed to play him much earlier. Would have been better the the Erroriot or at least no worse.
11 in '11
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 9, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
He chose to attempt RBI
11 in '11
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 9, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take you up on your challenge!
1. Shelby Miller – As if there were any doubt.
2. Oscar Taveras – This kid can hit and he’s not even taking it seriously yet.
3. Carlos Martinez – There’s a ‘heat wave’ blowing through the Cardinal system and his name isn’t Matias.
4. Lance Lynn – I couldn’t be more impressed with him. He’s got starter stuff.
5. Tyrell Jenkins – Had a good feeling about this kid from day one.
6. Kolten Wong – Who drafts a 2b in the first round?! We did and he’s damn good!
7. Zack Cox – Still think he’s over-rated, but there’s talent there.
8. Jordan Swagerty – Closer of the future.
9. Eduardo Sanchez – He may have something to say about that.
10. Matt Adams – Power bat who can hit to all fields.
11. Charlie Tilson – He’s from Chicago…………..keep the expectations on ice.
12. Matt Carpenter – Only if he’s traded.
13. Maikel Cleto – Lucky 13, still not sold on him.
14. Trevor Rosenthal – This guy just keeps growing on me.
15. Boone Whiting – Liked him from the start and he keeps getting better.
16. Ryan Jackson – Solid defense and under-rated bat.
17. Tony Cruz – Larussa has a man-crush on him for a reason.
18. Deryk Hooker – My dark horse pick to really excel next season.
19. Bryan Anderson – For god sake Mozeliak, the man has earned a chance, trade him!
20. Keith Butler – So the man’s unhitable as a reliever. Look it up.
21. Scott Gorgen – I got to believe he’ll be back with a vengence.
22. Anthony Ferrara – Better then he’s given credit for.
23. Eric Fornataro – Interchangable with Ferrara.
24. Adron Chambers – Vastly over-rated with no outstanding skill set.
25. Thomas Pham – Better then Chambers when healthy.
26. Steven Hill – Due for a monster year in memphis.
27. Roberto De La Cruz – May have to switch to 1b, but 2012 break-through POY.
28. Justin Wright – Why can no one hit this little guy???
29. Joe Kelly – Haven’t bought into the hype on this dude yet.
30. Tyler Rahmatulla – He’s in the top 5 of a lot of hitting categories.
and there you have it. Discuss amongst yourselves. I’m going to bed.
by Wileyvet on Sep 10, 2011 3:05 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Glad you approve
I think this was what you were looking for when you started the post.
i am overwhelmed by the kelly skepticism. i don't get it at all.
not just from you, willeyvet, but just from any number of posters.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
I saw him when they came to San Antonio
He wasn’t especially dominant; however, this was against a team that went 94-46 for 2011. I’m no scout, but he looked good, and didn’t unravel in the least after a rattling injury that left him lying on the ground for a few worrisome minutes. He just went right back to work, and actually looked better afterward.
Still not a werewolf.
Sorry tom s. but,
Let me start by saying I have never personally seen Joe Kelly pitch, however, I see absolutely no dominance in his game. Reportedly he has a great arm with above average pitches, which he has a hard time keeping in the strike zone. In his minor league career he’s averaged 9 hits and 4 walks per game for a 1.42 whip and that doesn’t include hit batters (never understood why that’s not included in the whip. Do they assume a hit batter is too injured to run therefore they don’t count???) The bottom line is Joe Kelly hasn’t overwhelmed anyone……….yet. Keep the faith though, he may justify your belief in him next season and prove me totally wrong. Right now I could see players like Sam Gaviglio, CJ McElroy, Lance Jeffries, Nick Additon, John Gast, Michael Maness, Cody Stanley, Hector Hernandez, Javier Avendano, Breyvic Valera, Chase Reid, Jose, Greg and Anthony Garcia, Starlin and John Rodriguez, Charles Cutler, Matt Williams etc; all passing him on the list if he doesn’t show marked improvement in his control.
Don't know if this has been said yet, haven't sifted through...
Oscar Taveras had a .440 BABIP to get to those final stats.
Part of what I wrote up on a blog:
Before the 2011 season started, Fangraphs’ top 10 for the St. Louis Cardinals looked like this:
1) Shelby Miller – RH SP – 20 years old on opening day – started in High A this season – #13 overall prospect in MLB via Baseball America
A+ ball – 2-3, 2.89 ERA, 1.82 FIP, 9 starts, 53 IP (5.89 IP/start), 81 K, 20 BB, .330 BABIP
AA ball – 9-3, 2.70 ERA, 2.73 FIP, 16 starts, 86 2/3 IP (5.42 IP/start), 89 K, 33 BB, .308 BABIP
Miller dominated until being asked to get away from his explosive fastball and work on his breaking pitches more. Miller also got suspended for violating policy as a minor (in the legal sense) at the end of the year.
2) Zack Cox – 3B – 22 – High A – #62 via BA
A+ ball – .335/.380/.439/.819 in 180 plate appearances – 8 doubles, 3 homers, 11:29 BB:K, 2 SB, 2 CS, .388 BABIP
AA ball – .293/.355/.432/.787 in 389 plate appearances – 19 doubles, 10 homers, 29:69 BB:K, 0 SB, 1 CS, .338 BABIP
Only thing I really heard about Cox was that he struggled initially in AA, but he and the hitting coach found a flaw in his swing and he starting hitting better than he did in A+ ball until the end of the season at that point.
3) Joe Kelly – RH SP – 22 – High A
A+ ball – 5-2, 2.60 ERA, 3.41 FIP, 11 starts (12 G), 72 2/3 IP (6.06 IP/start), 62 K, 34 BB, .275 BABIP
AA ball – 6-4, 5.01 ERA, 4.53 FIP, 11 starts, 59 1/3 IP (5.39 IP/start), 51 K, 25 BB, .358 BABIP
Interesting numbers at those levels. He’ll have time to work in the minors to see just what he can become. AA is a hitters’ paradise and they hit him well there.
4) Carlos (Matias) Martinez – RH SP – 19 – A
A ball – 3-2, 2.33 ERA, 2.35 FIP, 8 starts, 38 2/3 IP (4.83 IP/start), 78 K, 14 BB, .299 BABIP
A+ ball – 3-3, 5.28 ERA, 4.03 FIP, 10 starts, 46 IP (4.6 IP/start), 50 K, 14 BB, .351 BABIP
Jumped his way into the top 5-10 prospects in the nation with his amazing season of 128 K and 28 BB in just under 85 IP.
5) Tyrell Jenkins – RH SP – 18 – Rookie 2
Rk2 – 4-2, 3.86 ERA, 2.79 FIP, 11 starts, 56 IP (5.09 IP/start), 55 K, 13 BB, .373 BABIP
Having a .373 BABIP against you and getting through over 5 innings a start with about a K an inning and a low walk rate, especially having given up as few runs as he did, is VERY impressive. Even his LOB% (61.5%) was low, this is why his FIP is so much lower than his ERA (over a full point.) He pitched like an ace in his first full season. I love to see it, but he’s a long way off.
6) Seth Blair – RH SP – 22 – A
A ball – 6-3, 5.29 ERA, 5.71 FIP, 21 starts, 81 2/3 IP (3.89 IP/start), 70 K, 62 BB, .298 BABIP
This is pretty much the opposite of Tyrell Jenkins. :(
7) Lance Lynn – RH SP – 23 – AAA
AAA ball – 7-3, 3.84 ERA, 2.92 FIP, 12 starts, 75 IP (6.25 IP/start), 64 K, 25 BB, .344 BABIP
MLB – 1-1, 1 save, 3.12 ERA, 2.88 FIP, 2 starts (18 games), 34 2/3 IP, 40 K, 11 BB, .272 BABIP
I am super high on Lance Lynn after this year. I think he either needs to have a chance to start or close next year.
8) Eduardo Sanchez – RH RP – 22 – AAA
AAA ball – 1-0, 0.00 ERA, 1.20 FIP, 2 games, 3 IP, 3 K, 0 BB, .000 BABIP
MLB – 2-1, 5 saves, 1.88 ERA, 3.16 FIP, 25 games, 28 2/3 IP, 33 K, 16 BB, .213 BABIP
I’m also super high on Sanchez. His “stuff” is some of the best I’ve ever seen. He needs to seriously work on his control in the offseason, once his shoulder is healthy.
9) Oscar Taveras – OF (CF/RF/LF) – 18 – A
A ball – .386/.444/.584/1.028 in 347 PAs, 27 doubles, 5 triples, 8 HR, 32:52 BB:K, 1 SB, 4 CS, .440 BABIP
Great year helped by a HUGE BABIP.
10) (Matthew) Jordan Swagerty – RHP (starter and reliever) – 21 – A
A ball – 3-1, 1.50 ERA, 2.27 FIP, 5 starts, 30 IP (6 IP/start), 30 K, 2 BB, .229 BABIP
A+ ball – 2-2, 5 saves, 1.82 ERA, 2.52 FIP, 7 starts (22 games), 52 K, 16 BB, .279 BABIP
AA ball – 0-0, 3 saves, 2.89 ERA, 4.70 FIP, 9 games, 7 K, 5 BB, .250 BABIP
Swagerty jumped two levels this year. That’s kinda strange to do, I believe, but he did it well until his short stint in AA – a hitters’ paradise.
*All MLB #s are not complete.
Statistical Leaders
All players above rookie ball had to have at least 200 plate appearances to make the leaderboards.
All players at rookie ball 1 or below had to have at least 100 plate appearances to make the leaderboards.
(Note: The formatting looked much better when I originally typed it up. Sorry. Looks ugly now.)
Average/OBP/SLG
AAA – Mark Hamilton – .345/Mark Hamilton – .439/Tyler Greene – .579
AA – Charles Cutler – .333/Jermaine Curtis – .414/Matt Adams – .566
A+ – Greg Garcia – .290/Greg Garcia – .400/Xavier Scruggs – .494
A – Oscar Taveras – .386/Oscar Taveras – .444/Oscar Taveras – .584
A- – Jeremy Patton – .292/David Medina – .382/David Medina – .452
Rk1 – Luis Perez – .296/Ildemaro Vargas – .391/Luis Perez – .478
Rk2 – Tyler Rahmatulla – .314/Anthony Garcia – .407/Tyler Rahmatula – .545
FRk – Robelys Reyes – .378/Robelys Reyes – .453/Robelys Reyes – .554
OPS/Doubles/Home Runs
AAA – Tyler Greene – 1.001/Nick Stavinoha – 30/Nick Stavinoha – 28
AA – *Matt Adams – .923/Ryan Jackson – 34/Matt Adams – 32
A+ – Xavier Scruggs – .834/Xavier Scruggs – 27/Xavier Scruggs – 21
A – Oscar Taveras – 1.028/Oscar Taveras & Jonathan Rodriguez – 27/Jonathan Rodriguez – 20
A- – David Medina – .834/Jeremy Patton & Romulo Ruiz – 20/David Medina – 8
Rk1 – Luis Perez – .843 Ildemaro Vargas – 11 Michael Knox – 5
Rk2 – Tyler Rahmatulla & Anthony Garcia – .935/Tyler Rahmatulla – 27/Roberto De La Cruz – 16
FRk – Robelys Reyes – 1.007/Robelys Reyes – 11/Robelys Reyes – 6
*Adams finished second, but Alex Castellanos was traded and is no longer in the organizations.
Triples/Steals
AAA – Adron Chambers – 5/Adron Chambers – 22
AA – Four tied – 3/Jose Garcia – 19
A+ – Rainel Rosario – 6/Rainel Rosario – 15
A – Chris Edmondson – 6/Ronny Gil – 18
A- – Virgil Hill – 6/Cesar Valera – 10
Rk1 – Jem Argenal – 3/Lance Jeffries – 12
Rk2 – Anthony Garcia & Ronard Castillo – 4/Matthew Williams – 20
FRk – Robelys Reyes & Fernando Baez – 5/Robelys Reyes – 22
by stlfan on Sep 10, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

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