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How Will the St. Louis Cardinals Approach the Shortstop Position in September?

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So much for momentum.

Last week the St. Louis Cardinals breathed new life into their season and their dwindling playoff chances by sweeping the first-place Brewers in Milwaukee. However, the Cardinals were unable to parlay that sweep into weekend success, losing their series at Busch Stadium against the Cincinnati Reds. Meanwhile, the Brewers swept the lowly Astros. The Cardinals now find themselves 9.5 games out of first place in the division.

Even with the three-game series against Milwaukee beginning this afternoon at Busch it seems appropriate for the organization to approach the remainder of the 2011 season with an eye toward 2012 and beyond. How the club approaches the position of shortstop over these final weeks will give us an indication of their plans for the position moving forward.

Star-divide

At the non-waiver trade deadline, the Cardinals acquired 33-year-old shortstop Rafael Furcal from the Los Angeles Dodgers to replace Ryan Theriot, who had foolishly been handed the starting shortstop position over the winter. To make room on the big-league roster for Furcal, the Cardinals made two corresponding roster moves--one of which was optioning shortstop Tyler Greene to Memphis.

The Furcal trade created a glut in the middle infield and Greene was "the odd-man out." Manager Tony La Russa made the type of statements he often makes when the club options a player back to the minors:

"If he stays here, he's not going to play much," said manager Tony La Russa. "That's not good for him, or us."

"He's the odd-man out for all the right reasons for him," La Russa said. "If you're going to be in the big leagues and not play, you're going to get a little short-term time in, and then lose in the long-term because you're not down there developing your skills."

"He's having a good hear down there," La Russa said. "He's got plus skills, everything about him is above-average."

La Russa's assessment is no less accurate today than it was a month ago.

Entering play on Sunday, the 28-year-old shortstop had annihilated Pacific Coast League pitching to the tune of a .323/.424/.584 slash line, which comprises a .444 wOBA. Greene's tools are enticing. Cardinal fans have caught mere glimpses of his athletic ability in the majors, but nothing like those tools which he consistently displays for Memphis. To see Greene play for Memphis is to watch a player who performs like a custom player created on a video game: speed, power, range, and a rocket arm. Skill and production notwithstanding, Greene has nearly aged out of prospect status and into the Stavinohan territory of AAAA organization filler. With Ryan Jackson knocking on the Memphis door and an opening in St. Louis next season, it truly is now or never for the former first-round draft pick out of Georgia Tech. Given Greene's performance at Memphis and the Cardinals' fade from legitimate playoff contention, it would seem that the Cardinals owe it to themselves and to Greene to give him significant playing time over the remainder of the season so as to assess whether he is at all a factor in the club's plan for shortstop in 2012.

General Manager John Mozeliak gave what seems to be his endorsement of this approach when discussing September callups with the media after the Cardinals had fallen 10.5 games behind the Brewers in the National League Central standings but before last week's sweep.

Mozeliak said the more likely moves people will see when rosters can be expanded next Thursday would involve players who hadn't received everyday chances to play here "just to see what they're capable of."

Most have been here at one point or another, including Memphis shortstop Tyler Greene, who has failed in several trials here but really hasn't played more than a few games in succession.

****

Mozeliak, who met with his staff Wednesday morning and then with manager Tony La Russa after Wednesday's game, said, "I would like to see (Greene) get more of an opportunity to play, just so we can have a better idea for planning 2012."

Whether manager Tony La Russa is on board with Mozeliak on Greene's playing time remains to be seen. Not long after Mozeliak's comments were published, Brian Burwell of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch provided some interesting quotes from the manager:

"(We need) people seeing us competing at a high level (again)," said La Russa. "That means guys who play the best and pitch the best, play the most."

How it all plays out may provide the early hints of what direction the franchise is headed in 2012 and beyond. The manager pointedly maintained that he will do whatever is best for the organization. But to add a little intrigue to the mix, La Russa acknowledged that "what's best for the Cardinals" is all subject to interpretation. "Whatever that means on an individual basis, you add it up," he said. "But I don't think (general manager John Mozeliak) is talking about a wholesale Triple-A roster playing games while other guys are sitting. I don't think that's what he means."

I know what it means for La Russa, and he made that fairly clear in his chit chat near the dugout. "My number one priority is for this group of guys and this organization is to establish that we're going to be a real tough club to play in September," he said. "You don't do that by pulling playing time from guys that deserve to pitch and play. You give it to the guys that deserve to play."

The question raised by La Russa's statements is clear. Does Greene "deserve" to play shortstop over Furcal?

Since arriving in St. Louis, Furcal has been a breath of fresh air in the field after the club endured months of the stone-handed, weak-armed, and range-challenged Theriot. However, Furcal's production with the bat has been less revelatory even with a powerful performance that featured two leadoff homers in the Cards' sweep of the Brew Crew last week. 

Entering Sunday's game against the Reds, Furcal had hit .237/.289/.407 in a mere 129 PAs as a Cardinal. His .300 wOBA is certainly nothing to write home about but neither is his .223 BABIP as a member of St. Louis. Furcal's .169 ISO as a Cardinal certainly suggests that his back is not hampering his swing, at least in terms of generating power. (Furcal's .407 SLG with a mere .237 BA is higher than Skip Schumaker's .371 SLG which is backed by a .300 BA.) If healthy and with a bit of an evening out in his batted ball luck, Furcal could potentially offer the club a wOBA of about .350 with good defense next season. On the other hand, Furcal will be 34 in 2012 and has a worrisome injury history. 

There are legitimate questions regarding both Furcal and Greene. Only one is under club control in 2012, although Furcal signing on with the Cardinals for the 2012 season certainly appears a possibility. The Memphis Redbirds' season ends today which means Greene will likely be joining the club tomorrow. Over the remainder of the season, how the Cardinals handle playing time at shortstop will offer us some insight into how they may approach filling the position next season. Will September be an audition for Furcal, Greene, or both? It seems likely that the player the organization views as the most viable 2012 option will receive the majority of the playing time at shortstop in the season's final weeks.

**UPDATE**

In today's St. Louis Post-Dispatch, there is an article on the Cardinals' hopes to bringing Furcal back for next season and perhaps beyond. Here is the quote attributed to Mozeliak:

"When you look at our club since he came to our team, he's just really changed the look of it," Mozeliak said following Sunday's 3-2 loss to the Cincinnati Reds. "To try to find a way to get him back makes sense. But we have a lot of balls in the air. To try to balance it out financially and make it work is a challenge. But based on how he's played, and the type person he is and the energy's he brought to the club, there are a lot of positives."

If the club is truly interested in bringing back Furcal as Plan A, it would seem that they are no longer all that interested in seeing what Greene can do in the majors over the remainder of the season.

**2ND UPDATE**

Tony La Russa again spoke on the topic of Greene at his pre-game press avail today. Per Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatchhere is what the manager had to say:

The plan is still to get Greene an extended look as a starter.

La Russa said that will likely have to come at shortstop, at (curiously) likely at the expense of Rafael Furcal, who the club -- as reported in The Post-Dispatch this morning -- is trying re-sign for 2012.

Of Greene, La Russa explained: "He's never had a prolonged period (of playing time in the majors). He's had the kind of year in Triple-A that you have to give serious consideration. He wants to be an everyday player -- that's what he should be thinking about. ... He hasn't had the opportunity (here). What he's got to show is he gets the chance, he'll play shortstop here."

The question was asked whether Greene should be viewed as a possibility for everyday play at shortstop or -- as was one predicted for him -- at second base. La Russa implied that shortstop is the better bet because that's the position Greene has been "identified" for.

Comment 175 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I'd love to see Greene starting at SS in Spring Training

I just don’t see it happening though, he feels like a guy who’s just no longer in the Cards plan.

Trade him to a team like Pittsburgh,or the Yankees,Padres,, etc.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Sep 5, 2011 7:15 AM EDT reply actions  

That last box with the quote from La Russa

About his main responsibility being to show that the team will be tough to play against in September, is all fine and good when the team still had a somewhat less than astronomical shot at making the playoffs, but if that same answer was given today…I mean, really! There’s not even a reason for it to be that way, there are no playoff implications to be had with games left this season.

If Greene, specifically because of the Johnny Mo quote, and others youngters don’t get significant playing time from here on out, it mostly confirms what a lot of us think about Mo’s GM powers (or lack of said powers.)

by mattyfrommo on Sep 5, 2011 7:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

It's a one in a million chance

And who’s ever heard of those not working.

But what if it’s a one in 997,876 chance, that would never work and would just be ridiculous. Obviously Greene needs to play SS while standing on one leg,wearing a blindfold, and smoking a cigarette………… I think this will work Carrot.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Sep 5, 2011 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Characters Welcome

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 5, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd for the following
If Greene, specifically because of the Johnny Mo quote, and others youngsters don’t get significant playing time from here on out, it mostly confirms what a lot of us think about Mo’s GM powers (or lack of said powers.)

This is the only drama left in the season

by gocards62 on Sep 5, 2011 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Greene goes to SS

Audition Furcal at second. This may extend his career and take some stress off of his injuries. Extended Cal’s career (not that he’s in that league), but O dog has, believe there has been a dozen or so.

Ozzie is the greatest SS ever!

by Cardslifer on Sep 5, 2011 8:39 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't mind this option, except that in his small sample sizes in the majors

Greene has not shown a competency in the field when compared to Furcal.

by stlfan on Sep 5, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's why the should let him string some starts together

So he can settle in one the field and at the plate and get a reasonable chance to see if he’s ever going to make the show permanently. If he has a really good final month he would either be a very cheap SS for us or have more/some value in a trade. Yes?

11 in '11

Carp on Brendan

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 5, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

True

But we also need to see if Furcal can get it all back together and if we want him next year or not. Tough decisions. If you play them every other game, then neither gets a good extended look. I wonder if telling Greene he gets to start the last 10 games and Furcal gets the last at bat…but starting Furcal before then…would work?

by stlfan on Sep 5, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

How appropriate to be talking about SS

on the same day the P-D releases the story about the Cards’ interest to work out a deal with Furcal within this month.

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Sep 5, 2011 9:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Mozeliak's quote

on signing Furcal:

“When you look at our club since he came to our team, he’s just really changed the look of it,” Mozeliak said following Sunday’s 3-2 loss to the Cincinnati Reds. “To try to find a way to get him back makes sense. But we have a lot of balls in the air. To try to balance it out financially and make it work is a challenge. But based on how he’s played, and the type person he is and the energy’s he brought to the club, there are a lot of positives.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow

maybe him and Pujols are becoming good friends?

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember that

Pujols gave up his spillover locker to Furcal. The locker alignment now goes: Pujols, Furcal, and Molina.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

hopefully that'll last longer than the lopez bff

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 5, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keeping Furcal

really doesn’t pass the logic test in either of the Pujols scenarios. If Albert leaves, why keep him? If albert stays we probably can’t afford him. Seems like Greene should be given 20 games to show his stuff and then we decide. I like Furcal at 2b if he will make the switch but he’d have to hit a lot better or Schu is just as good an alternative.

Just win

by The Duke on Sep 5, 2011 9:35 AM EDT reply actions  

That might be a very good idea.

He is clearly a vg SS so should he definitely be able to handle 2nd. But you are right on target about the hitting compared to Schu. Starting Furcal at 2nd let’s TG get starts at SS, so we get to see them both since as Pualspike pointed out with the link above that Mo is definitively interested in paying another injury prone player millions…the injury part is what scares me

11 in '11

Carp on Brendan

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 5, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

see, this "furcal to 2b" thing makes no sense to me.

In favor of whom? Tyler greene? Look, I like to see young guys play, and I’d much rather see tyler play than skip or theriot or even descalso, because they are well-known quantities.

However, tyler’s likelihood of succes is probably fairly low. While they may have been taken irregularly, he does have a not-insignificant ML history, with pretty ordinary hitting and undistinguished defense. He has looked like a replacement value 2b/ss in his time here.

The only reasons to think he’ll do better are 1) the unproven narrative that his lack of continuous starts hurt him (which I don’t really buy into; most guys have to fight for their spots and gradually win it over another player); 2) he has outstanding stats at AAA.

On the second point, yes, but he’s also 28 and making his 3rd (4th?) Tour of AAA. A lot of the best hitters in AAA are 28, 29, 30 yo players who spend their time mashing in AAA and being called up for brief replacement value tours of the majors, then sent back down.

Keeping him company at this high end of AAA are brian barden, ryan langerhans, and cody ransom. There’s an outside chance that tyler doesn’t fit this group, but it’s not huge.

If people think that tyler greene is a better SS option than furcal, they must be incredibly pessimistic about furcal or incredibly optimistic about greene. I don’t think either position is warranted.

"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett

by tom s. on Sep 5, 2011 1:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 5, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would we play Furcal at 2B?

He’s the best offensive and defensive SS on the team.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Schumaker

I have always liked Schumaker but looks like he takes a beating in these articles/comments. What is he, a career .280 hitter or so. What P-D story was released? Do you guys that live around St Louis think AP will stay – I just recall just a few years ago he was saying to Manny give the Cards a discount? What happened???

Ozzie is the greatest SS ever!

by Cardslifer on Sep 5, 2011 9:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Greene should play 2b

I do not believe that Greene is good enough with the glove to handle SS in the majors. He’s been error prone in the minors. For all his range, I think he has poor hands and an inaccurate arm. If he plays 2b you might at least cut down on the throwing errors. And if he and Furcal were your MIF you would have tremendous range up the middle. 2b is where I would audition him over this last month.

"The Helping Phriendly Book it seems contained the ancient secrets of eternal joy and neverending splendor. The trick was to surrender to the flow." Phish - The Lizards

by indakind on Sep 5, 2011 9:50 AM EDT via iPhone app reply actions  

I like this idea

start him at second over Schu! but he also gives an option for the team if Furcal doesn’t sign (which he probably will)

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greene for SS

If LaRussa is still around in 2012 then Greene won’t be SS, but if he isn’t there it’s at least a possibility. I’d love for him to get an everyday shot at it.

by XxStLunaticxX on Sep 5, 2011 10:09 AM EDT reply actions  

In my mind

the important question is, if we re-sign AP, who would you rather keep – Furcal or Berkman? Both are old and somewhat injury prone, though Furcal perhaps more so. OTOH, Craig has shown he can play right (better than Berkman) and can hit major-league pitching. And, it’s difficult for me to see where else Craig would play consistently if AP is back (I don’t buy him at either second or center). Greene is the primary in-house SS option, along with Decalso. Would the Cards be willing to go into the season with this combo as their shortstops (of course, they went into this year with Theriot, so everything is possible). Furcal has played a really fine defensive SS, and, if he can return to a semblance of his former self, will provide some pop in that position. Personally, I would re-sign Furcal, let Greene play second (with Decalso as their backup) and Craig play right, and use Berkman’s money to keep Carp.

by CRay on Sep 5, 2011 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Wouldn't it be great to, say, have answers about Greene

before having to make a decision on Furcal? Wow, what revelation that would be.

Anyway, sorry. If Furcal isn’t gonna hit, I’d rather go young.

by sdrone on Sep 5, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

you mean younger

Greene is not young by any category

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

that looks like a lot of money that can be better spent.

not going to happen though.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

In Furcal's defense, he could very well be the Berkman of 2012, so to speak.

He is older and coming off an injury-plagued season. At shortstop for the Cardinals, he has shown himself to be a solid defender with moments of excellence. Furcal has demonstrated that his health has not sapped his power. I got into his wOBA and BABIP a little bit in the main post and I’ll expand a bit more here. Furcal has posted a .308 wOBA with the Cardinals so far, but his batted-ball and park-adjusted wOBA (wOBAr) is .383, according to Statcorner. Watching Furcal play, he looks healthy. The stats suggest he has been unlucky at the plate. I wouldn’t mind a $6MM bet on him being healthy. I just wish the GM wouldn’t be talking about giving Tyler Greene a chance and then two weeks later talking about wanting to sign Furcal before season’s end.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess I can buy it.

Like you, I wish they’d pick a line and stick with it. Let Greene play or not, one or the other, just quit jerking everybody around. I guess the Greene at 2B, as mentioned earlier, would be a good alternative. But I’m betting that if TLR is back then so is Skip. I’ve just gotten leery of throwing money at aging players, especially at such a physically demanding position as SS.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Statcorner has Furcal's BABIP at .211 right now.

He’s been horribly unlucky on balls in play. IMO, he’s played very well since the trade.

I’m fine with signing Furcal to a $5-6MM 1yr deal, (with maybe a mutual option if he meets high PA threshholds). Greene can be the starting 2B next year, and DD can be a utility player. I can only hope and pray that we don’t sign Skip Schumaker. I’m pretty confident that we non-tender Theriot.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't understand why ANYONE

would want to let Furcal go if he can be had for Berkman type money next year. Greene might fit in well as a supersub — he can definitely play in the outfield if needed and can play all the infield positions.

It wouldn’t be a terrible thing to carry Greene, Descalso, Furca, and Skip/Punto if that’s what it came down to.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 5, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

That is more of a question of:

  • Who do we expect to hit at a higher level: Tyler Greene or Allen Craig?

FWIW, I’d rather keep Furcal, platoon Greene and Skip at 2B while having Greene spell Furcal once a week or so at SS to keep him fresh, and then start Allen Craig in RF (or move Holliday to RF and start Craig in LF, which would be ideal, imo)

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 5, 2011 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Will AP resign

Do you guys really really think AP will stay?

Ozzie is the greatest SS ever!

by Cardslifer on Sep 5, 2011 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

It might be best if he doesnt

30 million dollars can buy a lot of talent. And one player does not a World Series winner make, unless you have a lot of things break your way.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Sep 5, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mantain

that for AP to sign with some other team they would have to offer a substantialy higher offer than what the Cardinals present. And I believe that no owner in their right mind would offer upwards of 30 million for one player. No one is worth that kind of money.

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.1 as of Sept 05
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Sep 5, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

at this point I have no idea

maybe at best 60% chance he signs? dunno

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm out until the 23rd

win some games, play some young guys, and have fun!

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Sep 5, 2011 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

have a good trip

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

WHIP

I know that no one uses it anymore, but I find it incredible that Justin Verlander and Jason Motte each have a WHIP of 0.91.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 10:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Verlander is absolutely unreal

I would trade half the farm to get him

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Sep 5, 2011 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's just too bad for the Cardinals that...

Verlander has done it over 223 innings so far while Motte has done it over 57.1.

by stlfan on Sep 5, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why Verlander's WHIP is so impressive.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Cardinals won't play for next year until after this week

It doesn’t seem possible at all however with the 6 games they have left this week, they more than likely are looking at 6-0 week, coupled with the Braves losing their 3 game series vs Philadelphia and spliting with New York on Thursday as their only shot at postseason. If that were to happen, the Braves would take on 6 losses this week (2 to Philly, 1 to NYM, 3 to St. Louis).

The Standings would look like:

Atlanta 84 – 63
St. Louis 80 – 66 3.5 GB

Ain’t got a snowballs chance in hell of happening, but you won’t see a full-on commitment to not giving a crap about Wins and Loses this year until after that.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 5, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

that fits the Larussa comments too

you know if they don’t gain any significant ground after this week, he’ll change his tune

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greene

I’d love to see Greene get a solid chance to play short, but that’s never gonna happen in this universe. The LaRussa/Mozeliak two headed monster will see to that.
 .Furcal has played well here, a serious upgrade from the pittance we had before. But longterm Furcal is exactly the player TLR loves – long in the tooth and brimming with grit. And Mozeliak loves what Tony loves, because he knows his Boss loves Tony, and that’s his meal ticket. If Mozeliak has had a single original thought since he’s been GM, it’s escaped me. You’ll notice in his quotes how he’s capable of talking out of both sides of his mouth, about Greene or anything else. As for TLR, whatever Lola wants, Lola gets. And sad to say, he’s gonna be here till he wants to leave. The Big Boss loves him, and seems not to give much of a damn about pennants or championships; he’s just happy counting his chits. El Birdos are but a superannuated annuity to him.
 RIP Tyler, good luck somewhere else…

by deweydell on Sep 5, 2011 11:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Furcal is not gritty - he's got plus tools, like arm and speed, and he gets hurt too much.

He’s been signed to large FA contracts because he’s really talented, not because he’s “gritty.” Putting “grit” in your comment and assigning it to a veteran player, and then insulting Mo or TLR, doesn’t make your comment/position more persuasive.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mistakes early and obvious

They made mistakes early. Theriot at SS, random 2B, no solid backup 3B (didn’t learn from last year), didn’t deal with Colby (right or wrong), deal with AP, find a true closer, stop me when the point is clear – we miss the real GM that we LET the Reds steal, then we should have jumped on Freddy Gonzalez. So clear, why don’t I own the Cards – oh yea, I need stupid amounts of money!

Ozzie is the greatest SS ever!

by Cardslifer on Sep 5, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I think they did have a backup third baseman in Nick Punto.

He was injured. Their Plan C at third was Descalso. I think that type of roster construction is fine. As Theriot’s play fell off, I think we would have seen Punto playing more shortstop, too, had he and Freese been healthy.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

pretty much

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

This club is bipolar.

The front office divisions make them completely incapable of having a long term plan.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Sep 5, 2011 12:07 PM EDT reply actions  

That's the vibe I get too

Though I’m guessing you have a little more to substantiate it all on.

by Merry CRasmus on Sep 5, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

The Furcal/Greene thing is a case in point. It’s not certain whether Greene can play in the Show or not, but the time to give him a shot is BEFORE you throw money at Furcal or anybody else, effectively shutting him out. I just don’t believe the front office is capable of doing this. They seem to filter all decisions like this one through TLR’s "veterans or bust" glasses. In this case, whatever Greene’s potential, he’s toast. That’s no way to run a ballclub

by deweydell on Sep 5, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder just how much division there really is

Maybe there is evidence out there that Mo disagrees with anything the club has done during his reign, but I just don’t see it.

by bailorg on Sep 5, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Without a doubt this is the most compelling question facing the Cards in September

Tyler Greene needs to have a shot at this position. I like Furcal, but paying him somewhere around $9 million for a no-bat defensive whiz with a medical history longer than an overweight cancer-riddled cripple with congestive heart failure just doesn’t make any sense.

Of course, I’m really in favor of blowing up this old-ass team and getting some fresh, young, hungry, cheap players in there, so I guess I don’t really have the proper TLR spirit.

www.stlcardinalbaseball.com

by Ray DeRousse on Sep 5, 2011 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I have a hard time believing anyone would pay

9 million for Furcal this year. IMO, it’s more likely that they will take the money from Theriot and give it to Furcal. If he doesn0t accept that offer, let him walk and bring Tyler to the Green.

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.1 as of Sept 05
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Sep 5, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way does Furcal take Theriot money

He made an AAV of $10 million the last three years and is going to be 34 years old. You’re looking at $6-$9 million to sign him, even for a one year deal.

www.stlcardinalbaseball.com

by Ray DeRousse on Sep 5, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he comes to me and demands me 6-9 million dollars

I will have this face as I send him packing:

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.1 as of Sept 05
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Sep 5, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

would be better if it were shannon

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 5, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blow it to hell

I totally agree. Start with Mo, make TL a lawn consultant for Busch.

Ozzie is the greatest SS ever!

by Cardslifer on Sep 5, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

would not stand a chance against bono

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 5, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm all for young players, but there should be some

Reason better than “young players good, old players bad.”

Furcal has long been an excellent shortstop, and has a good chance of continuing to be at least a decent one. He’s not a “no-bat defensive whiz” — not that I have problems employing one at short.

He’s surely not getting $9m next year. Remind me of the last 30-something shortstop offered $9m as a free agent a year after posting his worst season, riddled with injury.

Tyler greene is very likely to be a replacement value shortstop next year.

"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett

by tom s. on Sep 5, 2011 2:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not to mention the fact

that Furcal, when healthy, is also an above average leadoff hitter, something this club hasn’t head since, well…..Lou?

I like Greene, but I’m not voting Furcal off the island just to give the guy a chance to play everyday.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 5, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty torn on what I'd rather see next year

Furcal at SS: he’s made some great defensive plays, and likely has a lot of power still. but also, I’m not too thrilled about having him lead off with a not so good obp. but then again, leading off a game with a home run is quite nice, and we all know he can do that.

Greene at SS: likely the better option, since he won’t cost anything compared to Furcy. I’m not confident in saying he’s the better player going forward; but he also probably is, given his minor league performance. still, it seems that his play in the majors is hard to quantify. there’s been a lot of floundering. in the end though, the fact he costs nothing in comparison to Furcal, and that he is above average in all aspects of the game at least in the minor leagues, makes me think he’s worth a shot at starter next year.

that said, I’m not sure how important it is that he get playing time on the Cards this season/September. I do want to see him starting next year on a preference level. But Furcal is not a bad option, especially if we sign him to a favorable contract (overpaying for him would be detrimental though; when expecting to bring back both Pujols and Berkman).

If Furcal is signed though, I’d expect to see Greene on the team as a supersub, since he can play just about anywhere if they had to do it.

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 12:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Honestly at this point

Give him regular playing time or trade him for something we can use. We’ve got DD, Craig, Carpenter, etc.

by sdrone on Sep 5, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Inappropriate or awesome?

To come out for your wedding reception to “Here Comes the King” by the musical stylings of Ernie Hays?

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 5, 2011 12:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I think that is awesome.

It’s certainly better than the Black Eyed Peas or something like that.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

bro why you gotta be dissing my wedding

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Sep 5, 2011 1:28 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

You didn't come out to "Tonight's Gonna Be A Good Night," did you?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was fitting!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Sep 5, 2011 1:54 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

So I'm reading this as...you are now a married man

Congratulations Rui. Had saw via VEB it was coming but didn’t know it was consummated.

11 in '11

Carp on Brendan

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 5, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm guessing that it consumated some time before the actual wedding.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way she married him after a test drive.

He’s Asian, remember?

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Sep 5, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is getting awkward

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Sep 5, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you!

Yep, happened about 3months ago.

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Sep 5, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

horse or no horse

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 5, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that would be cool.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

TLR can bite my fantastic, heartbreaking ass.

Free Tyler Greene!

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL

by The Continental on Sep 5, 2011 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Whoa, Colby is on the DL?

I did not know that. Are you tracking his BABIP?

Seems like about every week I learn something from someone’s .sig

by sdrone on Sep 5, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT, Apologies.

Chitown, any idea what’s going on with Yahoo and Viva El League? Everything looks screwed up.

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL

by The Continental on Sep 5, 2011 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Is fixed.

Nothing to see here. Carry on.

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL

by The Continental on Sep 5, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok good

I was starting to question reality

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Possible line-up for next year, if AP and Furcal don't resign

Greene SS
Craig RF
Berkman 1B
Holliday LF
Freese 3B
Molina C
Jay CF
Schumaker 2B

Not exactly intimidating, though if Greene does produce it gets much better.

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

$$$$

Would definitely have money to beef up the pitching staff. Hate that Duncan is going through, kind of explains why the staff seems all over the place.

Ozzie is the greatest SS ever!

by Cardslifer on Sep 5, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd obviously be hesitant for MO to try and sign a SP given the contracts he gave to Lohse and Westbrook

But Oswalt will probably hit free agency, and assuming the cost is right I wouldn’t be against signing him. Maybe we’ll bring Joel Pineiro and Brad Penny back lol.

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh and Jason Marquis

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Marquis comes back,

we’ll have to make the playoffs again just so we can piss him off by leaving him off the postseason roster.

I wouldn’t be opposed to either of those things.

by dronemc on Sep 5, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

ugh. giving away wins left and right.

Greene and schu are worth maybe one win between them, and jay is just below average.

For probably $6m more, you could have furcal at SS and either barmes or punto at second.

"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett

by tom s. on Sep 5, 2011 2:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

How about Sizemore as our CF?

Assuming the Indians don’t exercise his option, his wOBA is essentially the same as Jay’s but with a much lower BABIP, his UZR/150 in CF for his career is twice that of Jay, though with considerably more innings. He’s two years older, though, and would certainly cost more than Jay but if we don’t have AP we could easily afford him.

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

It's certainly an enticing thought,

but I assume the Indians will pick up that option.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes in all likelihood they will, meant to include that, but a guy can dream.

The next-best CF would probably then be Coco Crisp, who’s basically Jon Jay but older and more afro-y.

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or Beltran, I suppose, if you still believe he can play CF

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Beltran can still play center.

I also think that Crisp’s ability to play it is falling off with age. That being said, Crisp is a switch-hitter, which La Russa loves, and could make a nice bench outfielder who could spell Jay against left-handed pitching. Crisp has a career .749 OPS against LHP even if it has fallen off this season to .604. It was .949 last season. If I were constructing the team, I’d much rather pay Crisp decent money as a bench outfielder than Theriot or Schumaker as a dull utility knife.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are approximately 300 players I would rather pay then Theriot and Schu, including one-legged Pete Rose and no-armed Babe Ruth skeleton.

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

from what I've seen

they’re not real sure that Sizemore’s knee will take it .

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which knee?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought he was having trouble with the one that hasn't been worked on.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has knees left?

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's kind of my point.

He had microfracture surgery on one knee and then injured the other knee this year.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahhhhhhh. sarcasm.....gotcha

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, not sarcasm.

I am interested in which knee wouldn’t be able to handle CF in the view of the Indians because he has had problems with both. If it’s the microfractured knee, then why did they play him in CF this season? If it’s the other knee, then just how bad is that injury?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I found what it was.

It was the last time he went on the DL with the knee that turned into hernia surgery. I missed the hernia part and thought that it was just the knee.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is disappointing, though, he used to lead the AL in WAR

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's a terrific player and I wish he could stay healthy

because he’s a lot of fun to watch play.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Has to suck to be an Indians fan, the one star who actually stays gets injured.

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hafner and Choo each have spent a fair amount of time on the DL this season, too.

And Hafner’s shoulder injury has really sapped his power production. They signed him and Sizemore and looked positioned to compete for years. Injuries have derailed that plan.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

them's the breaks, I suppose

Manchester City: 9 points, 3-0, 2nd in EPL, +9 GD
Sergio Aguero: 3 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 6 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich and #19, MF, German National Team, also, my cousin, so suck it.

by cardinalswsbound on Sep 5, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The MIF Glut

Goold tweets that Punto will also join the Cardinals. So, the MIF will feature the following options: Furcal, Schumaker, Theriot, Punto, Descalso, and Greene. I bet that Greene will receive the sixth-most PAs out of that group over the final weeks of the season.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

dgoold Derrick Goold
Nick Punto (oblique) will rejoin the #Cardinals on Tuesday & be on active roster as a utility option. Greene and Cruz also coming. #stlcards

plus

BJRains B.J. Rains

La Russa on Nick Stavinoha, who has 28 home runs and 107 RBIs for Triple-A Memphis: “He deserves to be in the big leagues.”

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL

by The Continental on Sep 5, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I lack the energy to even get upset at this garbage.

"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett

by tom s. on Sep 5, 2011 2:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't, so I will rant in your stead

I just do not understand this kind of statement from a major league manager. Not even Tony can really think, at this point, that Stavinoha has much of anything to offer the major league club, either in the short term or the long term. So I am left with the conclusion that the word “deserves” as he uses it in this quote means that Stavinoha has somehow paid his dues.
It would be nice if we were talking about getting the guy a present for working so hard for the organization all these years, but we are talking about actual playing time in the major leagues. This is not the place to put a guy who “deserves to be in the big leagues” by Tony’s crazy definition. It is the place to put people materially help the St. Louis Cardinals succeed and win games, either by playing better than the alternatives right now, or by possibly providing a hint of future value in the coming years. Nick Stavinoha offers neither of these. There is no reason to spend limited remaining playing time on rewarding Nick Stavinoha for an awesome AAA ribbies total.
Yet somehow he “deserves to be in the big leagues”. Un-frickin’-believable.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Sep 5, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

The real question is whether TLR actually thinks Stav "deserves" MLB playing time

or if he’s just saying something nice about someone, all the while realizing that Stav won’t be put on the 40-man and won’t play.

The evidence is clear that either TLR doesn’t control the roster as much as everyone says, or he’s just spouting some platitudes. Because the facts are that Stav has been removed from the 40 man (while Stav-similar players like Hamilton and Brown remain), not put back on it while other guys like Shane Robinson have been, and is not a Sept. call-up.

So, either TLR really believes that Stav belongs in the big leagues but doesn’t have the pull to make it happen, or he’s just saying some nice things about a loyal soldier who’ll be playing for anther team next year.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope you're right and that it's the former

Also, I forgot all about the 40-man issue which probably makes all of my worries moot.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Sep 5, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that Tony has flabbergasted me in the past with his player evaluation skills.

So every once in a while I start to believe my “crazy Tony” fears.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Sep 5, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually think TLR would prefer to have Stav on the team

in a vacuum, but realizes that Stav is redundant to Craig, and even to Cruz to some extent (not to mention Berkman), and isn’t a defensive replacement or pinch running candidate. Even TLR has to pick his battles to some extent, and he’s not going to pick one over Stav. He’ll just stir some shit with some quotes in the local rag and leave it at that.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's the latter

The expanded quote makes it clear, when reading through the Tonyspeak, that he" thinks" Stav deserves a shot in the majors, but just not with the Cardinals. It’s just Tony being Tony, and for once, I’m okay with that.

by mattyfrommo on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Major Miles

has only been league average in one situation…that’s as a pinch hitter. In 81 career PH AB, Stav Infections’ line is .272/.302/.444/.747 with a .306 babip.

Agreed.

by stlfan on Sep 5, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, fuck Tony.

Is he really that stupid? If he is then send his ass packing in the off-season.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 5, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

quick question

I’m sorry to bring up football, but does anyone know what happens if your league (without divisions) has an odd number of teams? yahoo is giving me an alert on it; should I delete one team? or wait to see if any other teams show up at the last second?

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 5, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

The team isn't going to be able to sign Pujols, Carp, Berk, and Furcal for next year

at least not without making trades to shed salary or increasing team salary significantly again. I’m not opposed to bringing any of these players back for the right price (indeed, I wish we could bring back all four while shedding salaries like Westbrook’s).

Nevertheless, Tylere Greene will almost certainly be on the team next year, either as a starter at 2B or SS or as a utility player, no matter who gets signed of those four, just because he’s cheap.

I’ll be surprised if he gets as many PAs as there are games remaining on the schedule.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

The organization's approach to the 2012 roster

appears to be one of acting proactively to retain players independent of the Pujols negotiations. It feels like they are going to attempt to put a competitive roster in front of him for 2012 and then, perhaps, to negotiate a lesser 2012 salary. At least that’s my impression from early reports of the club approaching Berkman and Furcal about extensions.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree and actually like the backloading approach. (twss)

The salary crunch is next year, not in years 2-6 of a hypothetical Pujols deal. Let him have Lohse’s or Westbrook’s money (or Carpenter’s) when those contracts end in 2013, and we can replace those guys with internal options like Shelby, Lynn, etc.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 5, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

What we are paying Lohse and Westbrook is unsustainable, if we sign Pujols.

Carpenter: 4.0 WAR
Garcia: 3.2 WAR
Lohse: 1.7 WAR
Westbrook: 0.8 WAR

Obviously, this team cannot continue to be paying $20MM for 3 WAR out of two slots in the starting rotation. If we extend Furcal and play a second baseman who can field even at an average level, I think Lohse and Westbrook may be more valuable next season, but the Cardinals can’t keep overpaying for back-end starters like this.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fortunately, their contracts expire at the end of next year.

I like a 2013 rotation of:

Waino
Jaime
Shelby

And then 2 of Carp/Lynn/Rzep/Martinez (if we’re lucky and he develops quickly)/whatever other organizational filler we have.

Of course, I some part of me half expect Mozielak to offer Jackson 4/$72 million and trade Martinez and Lynn for Buehrle, so I’m still worried.

by dronemc on Sep 5, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meanwhile:

CardsInsider St. Louis Cardinals
STL Lineup vs MIL (9/5): Furcal, ss; Theriot, 2b; Pujols, 1b; Holliday, lf; Freese, 3b; Molina, c; Craig, rf; Robinson, cf; Westbrook, rhp.

Sugar Shane starts in CF.

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL

by The Continental on Sep 5, 2011 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

This lineup needs something...mmmm...oh yes needs some "Berk" in it

Actually, with Berks performance lately he probably is due a little time off to renew…wife and i were just discussing it this morning.

11 in '11

Carp on Brendan

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 5, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the Braun play--which may be the ugliest all-around play of the year--ended that TLR experiment.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but the experiment was worth it for the hilarity of the 3rd to home attempt by Braun

And hopefully, TLR realizes the error of his ways in regard to that decision. But probably not

11 in '11

Carp on Brendan

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Sep 5, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Got link?

I’m not aware of this play.

by sdrone on Sep 5, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was the Cardinals-Brewers series last week.

LINK

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

OH that thing

I couldn’t figure out how that ended the Craig experiment.

by sdrone on Sep 5, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That wasnt that bad

Berkman’s had far worse

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Sep 5, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I meant the combination of Craig's defensive miscue and Braun's baserunning miscue.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shane in CF

I’m okay with that, for more reasons than just because it isn’t Patterson.

by mattyfrommo on Sep 5, 2011 3:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Goold has posted a piece on stltoday.com with quotes from TLR on Greene. I updated the main post.

I clearly chose the wrong day to write this post…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 5, 2011 2:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Playing time talks, bullshit walks.

TLR, stop rubbing my rhubarb and play the guy already.

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/25 - And on the DL

by The Continental on Sep 5, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now you know how I feel.

Every. Single. Wednesday.

Or die trying.

by the red baron on Sep 6, 2011 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Somewhat off-topic

Last night, minor league salaries were discussed. Thankfully, the San Antonio Express-News lurks VEB, and there’s an article in today’s sports page about the lifestyle of the Road Warriors, a travel-only team in the Atlantic League.
They make $1,100 a month, and get $18 a day for food.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Sep 5, 2011 2:40 PM EDT reply actions  

So, here's something fun that has nothing to do with the pitfalls of our team's immediate or long-term prospects!

I went to the game yesterday with my parents, wife, and little girl. While I was walking just outside the stadium, passing by the “third base” corner gate, my eyes were suddenly drawn to a real-life Chebird powder blue t-shirt. I couldn’t help myself and I reacted. “Viva el Birdos!” I said, rather loudly and involuntarily. I followed this up with a sort of indistinct “Yeeaahhh!” kind of word, also rather loudly and involuntarily. I can’t even remember what the young man wearing the shirt said to me at first. After his initial response, instead of saying something like “fight the good fight” or “call up Tyler Greene!” or making a stupid pun to show solidarity, all I could muster that quickly was something like “I almost bought that shirt!” Then the guy said something like “I love it!” in reference to said apparel. Then we parted ways, probably never to speak (in person) again.

In short, I totally geeked out and apologize to this man.

In all seriousness though, whoever it was, I did feel almost a little goofy and hope I didn’t embarrass your or scare you or something.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Sep 5, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

it's really too bad your daughter isn't 13 or so, because

Then she could remind you regularly what a complete dork you are.

Something to look forward to.

"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett

by tom s. on Sep 5, 2011 8:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

She got me a free Albert Pujols statue though

She doesn’t even need a ticket to get into games yet, but gets free stuff at the gates all the time. So I’m with her staying small for a while.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Sep 5, 2011 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

wooo

aww no Carpenter though.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Sep 5, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Weird

Are there going to be more call-ups than this?

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Sep 5, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

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