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Five 2nd baseman

Chase Utley  6-1,  200lbs  age 32

Dustin Pedroia  5-9, 180lbs  age 27

Ben Zobrist  6-3, 200lbs  age 30

Ryan Theriot  5-11, 180lbs  age 31

Skip Schumaker   5-10, 195 lbs  age 31

 

 

What makes these players so different, while at the same time so  baffling similar?  5 Caucasian men, all around the same height, weight, and age. Most of whom who arrived at the show with little to no fanfare.

 Where in development do theses players branch.  Is it purely natural talent?  Are the organization's scouting and developmental philosophies so different?

 

Chase Utley was the 15th overall selection in the 2000 draft by the Philadelphia Phillies.  Despite the high pick, Utley never ranked in Baseball Americas top 50.  He was 81st in 2003, but thats as high as he got ( for reference, Chris Narveson was ranked 86th the year before).  He broke into the show in 2003 and in his first start hit a grand slam for his first career hit.  He was sent down after the game, but was recalled later in the year to replace an injured Placido Polanco.  In 2004 Utley was up and down from AAA to the MLB most of the year.  In limited playing time as a bench player he hit 266/308/468  with 13 HR.   He Began 2005 platooning with Polanco.  Placido was traded later in the year and Utley became the starter, the rest is history.  Hes a 5 time all star, and has competed for a few MVPS.

 

Dustin Pedroia was the the 65th overall selelction (2nd round) of the 2004 draft by the Boston Red Sox.  Pedroia was ranked the 77th overall prospect by BA in 2006 (Jamie Garcia was ranked 70th the following year), he only spent 2 years in the minors, batting 308 overall.  He arrived in late 2006, only playing 31 games in a small role hitting 191/258/303.  He replaced Mark Loretta in 2007 as the everyday 2b, and after a weak first month, established himself as one of the red sox core players.  He won ROY that year, and MVP the next, and hasent stopped yet.

 

Ben Zobrist was the 184th overall selcetion (6th round, jarret hoffapauir was seleceted 4 ahead at 180) of the 2004 draft by the houston astros.  Zobrist never cracked BA top 100, and was traded to the rays in 2006 for aubrey huff and cash.  From 2006-2008, he served as a kind of jack of all trades, could play anywhere, do anything you wanted player( La russa type player huh?).  In 2009 he broke out in a big way batting 297/405/543 with 27 HR and 17 steals, playing all around good D at all postions he played, although he played most at 2nd (91 games).  He led all ML players hitter with an 8.6 WAR in 2009 ( Pujols had 8.4 and won the MVP).  While he hasent replicated the level of succes he had in 2009, he has been a very useful ML player both offensivley and defensivley.

 

Ryan Theriot was the 78th overall selection (3rd round) in the 2001 draft by the chicago cubs.  Theriot never ranked in BA top 100.  Theriot began his carrer quite well, hitting 328/412/522 in 2006 splitting time with the ML club AAA.  He eventually deposed Cesar Izturis and started at SS from 2007-2010 for the cubs (peaking at a line of 307/387/359 in 2008, stealing 28-4 in 07!)  he was dethroned from the SS position by starlan castro and was subsequently traded to the dodgers for a former top prospect in blake dewitt.  He spent a half season in dodger blue before he was traded to STL.  You know his story from here.  Theriot has no awards of significance, but if you combine his hitting line from 08, with his legs in 07, and his then average defense, at one point there was a nice little ball player there

 

Skip Schumaker was the 164th overall selection (5th round) in the 2001 draft by the saint louis cardinals.  Schumaker was never ranked in BA top 100.  He deubued in 2005 and served as a util outfielder, occasional starter until 2009, when he was converted to 2nd.  He has since struggled to find consitencey since the move.  

 

 

For the record picking out single players and careers to compare like this is very arbitrary, hindsight is always 20/20 afterall.  I could have furhter researched comparable players who have failed (brandon wood, gordon becham, Kahlil Greene).  Some whom the jury is still out ( howie kendrick, alex gordon).  Or others who have exceeded expectations (Robinson cano, Ian Kinsler).    

Zach Cox  6-0  215lbs  age 22

Tyler Greene  6-2  190lbs  age  27

Kolten Wong  5-9  190lbs   age 20

Ryan Jackson 6-3 180lbs   age 23

Pete Kozma 6-0  170lbs  age 23

(allen craig?)

 

I Write this pondering the present and future.  Tyler Greene's career path could possibly resemble Ben Zobrist if utilized the right way, or given a proper opportunity.  Could Zach Cox, Ryan Jackson, Pete Kozma, or Kolten Wong turn into a Dustin Pedroia type player?  Its possible.  Do you have confidence in the cardinals organization to guide these players toward a big league future?  I am not insinuating in any way that any of these players will be worth anything at all, but that they have the potential, as has been proven by others, to rise up and seize a position in which we have not had stability at for over a decade. The pieces are there.

 

Note, I am not a writer, nor do I fully understand the format, I've done my best to organize, spell check, and stay relevant, sorry if its not grammar proper.  The main point is to raise the discussion of why these players develop so radically different, despite some obvious similarities.  Is it just talent, or possibly organizational competence?

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FWIW...

TLR considers Skip to be one of the “core” players on the team, though I believe his definition of “core player” might differ from what we feel it means.

by avs18fan on Aug 9, 2011 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Addendum

To answer your posed question – As in any job, I think it’s a mixture of talent, organizational instruction, and the player’s dedication to his craft. If any one of those is missing, or much lower than the others, then I think the player ends up lesser for it. Not to say they won’t make it in the majors, mind you – I just think that it takes all 3 falling into place to create a star, amongst other things.

That said, I’m interested to see in what Kolten Wong will eventually bring to the table – I think he’s got the talent and dedication there, and hopefully the organizational instruction will be there as well (I think we have a good one, though I can see arguments made depending on people’s opinion).

by avs18fan on Aug 9, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

at this point

I am fairly confident Kolten Wong is going to pan out. I have no idea about Zach Cox, but it appears that he will not be a second baseman. I like the idea of this post, comparing body sizes of players and yet how different they perform. I think it’s kind of a crap shoot really

low in the zone

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 9, 2011 8:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I wish we had Utley

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 11, 2011 7:30 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I think there's a big difference physically, though

Height and weight don’t tell the picture. It’s where the weight is distributed.

Though I would say Skip and Theriot have skinny builds. I actually don’t know where all that weight is on Skip, maybe in his feet? That would why he’s so slow…

Utley could probably carry the other 4…

by DiscoJer on Aug 12, 2011 6:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Anyway

That’s why I like Wong – he seems to be really built. Short and squat

by DiscoJer on Aug 12, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Skip's quite solidly built

not sure musculature is the most important thing in terms of power hitting, though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Aug 15, 2011 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I desperately hope Cox turns out

I know the community is not really that high on him right now. It is his first professional year though. I think he breaks out in a big way next year, having a year of experience in pro ball will certainly help.

I have seen wong in person, and granted I am not a scout, but he seemed impressive for never playing pro ball before. Hes 2 months into his career and is already close to an even k/bb ratio. Quite polished IMO. Hes not very big, but neither is dustin pedroia.

comparing height, weight, and age, is an arbitrary way of seeing these players. Not taking into account the cumulative career is unwise and unfair. I simply find it fascinating that these players seem so similar at a glance. hence why i dug a little deeper to maybe discover a trend in the players development that helped make them the players they became

by TheHolyDiver19 on Aug 13, 2011 3:31 AM EDT reply actions  

He's hit pretty well at AA the last month

It’s not that I don’t think Cox is a good prospect, I just don’t think he’s a good third-base prospect. He doesn’t have a good throwing arm and is not likely to hit for a lot of power at the big league level. He’s basically Matt Carpenter with better batting average ability but with a significant drop off in plate discipline.

I think his ceiling is higher, but I think it would be much higher as a second baseman. After the Wong pick, though, it doesn’t seem likely that he’ll be in this organization as a second baseman.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 16, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

speaking of carpenter

hes tearing it up right now at AAA, he should be on our bench right now, hopefully the off
season brings the departure of Theriot/Schumaker although i have my doubts. If TLR is still around one of those two surely will be as well

by TheHolyDiver19 on Aug 16, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah

I never really thought of that, but it makes alot of sense. His bat would look pretty good there. The organization seems pretty open to position swaps at this point

by TheHolyDiver19 on Aug 19, 2011 2:05 AM EDT reply actions  

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