The First Offseason Prospect List of the Year
If I were dreaming up advertising campaigns for Sony and their Playstation, I would sign up Trevor Bauer as soon as possible, just so I could have Joe Mauer strike out in a future commercial, turn to Trevor, and say, "Well played, Bauer." I think I might also try to find Jeremy Sowers, too, if only to prove my games can be played even by those who have lost all functionality in one of their arms. Maybe Tyler Flowers also. And this is why no one will let me work in advertising.
I'm writing this post late Monday night/early Tuesday morning, as I'm not sure if I'll have the time Wednesday morning. Ergo, the most recent knowledge I currently possess of the Cardinals is the rather stirring victory they put up Sunday to take three of four from the hated (relatively speaking), Pittsburgh Pirates. It was just the sort of encouraging performance I would have been thrilled to death to have seen three weeks ago, and just the sort of performance I now bitterly sardonically ruefully grin grimace at, fully expecting a run of good baseball now that the Cards have no chance of making the postseason.
Anyhow, seeing as how I have no idea what happened in last night's game and the team as a whole has not really given me much to work with at the moment, I thought I would do something a little different. Though come to think of it I would like to express the opinion I would have preferred to see Marc Rzepczynski take the upcoming Thursday start instead of Brandon Dickson, since we're apparently still working under the assumption The Scrabbler (worst Batman villain ever), could end up in the rotation sometime in the fairly near future.
So what I'm going to do is write the very first Cardinals prospect list of the 2011-2012 offseason. Sure, you could wait around for people who are qualified and actually know what they're talking about, but why do that when my list is here so much sooner? After all, my motto has always been, "If you can't be good at something, at least be quick about it."
And now you know why I've never married.
Oh, a quick note before I forget: while discussing the Cardinals' recent high draft picks last week, I mentioned Kevin Gausman, who was one of my favourite targets last year, and said he should be a high draft pick in 2013. Keith Law was nice enough to drop me an email and let me know Gausman will, in fact, be a draft-eligible sophomore and so draftable in 2012. Thanks to Keith for the info, and piquing my interest in the Cards perhaps being able to pull one of my cheeseballs on the second go-round if they're willing to go overslot for the kid the way they did with Zack Cox, who was also a sophomore when drafted.
So here we go, fifteen of the the best prospects the Cards' system has to offer. My methodology for ranking them is based largely on heavy absinthe consumption and the opinions of a talking lobster I befriended while working on a merchant marine vessel in the 30s.
One note: while I'm sure Eduardo Sanchez (and probably Lance Lynn as well), will still qualify for these lists come winter, I'm going to omit both of them. In my mind both players are now major leaguers, whatever the service time accrued may say about them. Also, leaving them off allows me to get a few more interesting guys on the list who we don't already know quite so much about. Actually, come to think of it, disabled list time counts as service time, so neither one may qualify at all. Eh, either way. Details bore me.
1. Shelby Miller, RHP
Number one in our hearts and on the charts, Shelby is the man with the golden arm and the amber pitcher, one of which is going to have to go.
Seriously, though, the obvious question about Miller is his off the field issues, but at 20 years old I believe he has plenty of time to learn a lesson and make the necessary changes. Growing up isn't always the easiest thing to do under normal circumstances, much less trying to learn how to handle yourself as a high profile figure at the same time.
As for the on-field, Shelby has all the makings of a future ace. His fastball still grades out a solid 70, and his changeup has actually developed into a real weapon for him as well. His curveball, which was highly thought of coming out of high school, has become his problem pitch, with inconsistent shape and command. It seems fairly innocuous to me; the sort of trials most pitchers have as their deliveries mature into whatever they're going to be and the release point wanders a bit. Still, getting the breaking ball back up to snuff will be important for Miller as he takes the next step in 2012. Time, consistency, and judgment are the things Shelby still needs more of, and really, they're probably all the same thing anyway.
Expect to see Shelby occupying this slot on every single list this year, and solidly entrenched in the top five or ten of the overall lists as well.
2. Oscar Taveras, OF
Here's my first (moderately), controversial ranking, putting Taveras ahead of Carlos Martinez. But in looking at their overall season performances, while Carlos has faltered a bit of late, Oscar has maintained and, if possible, actually gotten stronger late in the season. Plus, while I'm not exactly a TINSTAAPPer, I think Taveras does get a little extra credit for the simple fact he isn't a pitcher.
Taveras is just 19 years old (and won't turn 20 until next June), playing in a full-season league, and posting an OPS over 1.000. (1.024 as of this writing, to be exact.) Virtually all of his offensive stats have jumped off the charts this season, but perhaps most encouragingly of all is the increase in walk rate. In 2010 Taveras walked in just 5.2% of his plate appearances at Johnson City; this year he's drawn a free pass in 9.4% of his PAs. Not elite plate discipline, exactly, but a solid number all the same and a very encouraging progression.
I've only gotten to see Taveras play twice live (he was hurt when Quad Cities played at Busch earlier this year, which I found very disheartening), but his defense looks solid to me. I think he's more of a right fielder down the line than a center fielder, but he could probably man center in a pinch. Most everything about Oscar's game puts me in mind of Carlos Gonzalez, from the big swing to the physical makeup -- though Taveras is an inch or two taller -- and the production at a very young age. The Cardinals are going to have to be very careful not to push Taveras too quickly despite his prodigious talents; he has plenty of maturing to do and the last thing any of us want to see is the promising 2011 Oscar go the way of the Mets' Fernando Martinez by 2014.
3. Carlos Martinez, RHP
What more can really be said about Carlos? He may have the highest ceiling of any pitcher in the Cardinals' system, which is rather amazing considering the pitcher sitting atop this list, but it's true. A pure 80 fastball, a wicked curve, and a changeup that, while still very much in its nascency, shows potential for a future plus grade. The repertoire is unreal; Martinez is an out and out buzzsaw when he's right.
There are really only two concerns with Martinez. One, he's small, and two, he's wild at times. The wildness seems to have increased late this season, possibly as a result of fatigue, and I fully expect that to improve as he accrues stamina and innings moving up the ladder. The size thing, though, is a legitimate concern. I personally have no reservations about him handling a starter's workload -- which is good since guys rarely go from barely six foot to six-five after their eighteenth birthdays -- but I can't blame anyone else for having those concerns. If he does prove unable to handle 200 innings a year, Carlos still has the sort of repertoire which profiles almost absurdly well for late inning relief work. His value would certainly take a huge hit, though.
4. Trevor Rosenthal, RHP
This was a tough ranking for me to make, but it's one I think Rosenthal has earned with his performance this year. Coming into the season he was put on several sleeper lists -- including mine from the Maple Street Annual -- and he's blossomed in a big way. His simple ERA isn't anything to write home about at 4.11, but the underlying numbers tell a much more enthralling story. A 9.95 strikeout rate, 3.41 K/BB, fewer hits than innings pitched, a 52% groundball rate. He has some funk to his delivery and has already shown a strong proclivity for working low in the zone. All that says to me Trevor Rosenthal is a name we should probably all get used to hearing, because we're going to be talking about him often in the next few years.
Rosenthal doesn't have the same kind of pyrotechnic repertoire as Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez, but he isn't a finesse pitcher by any means, either. He works in the low- to mid-90s with his fastball, and his secondary pitches receive high marks for a pitcher of his age. (Just 21, won't turn 22 until early next season.) He still needs polish, of course, and he does have a sizable innings jump to be concerned with going forward. All in all, while Rosenthal may be exceeded in pure ceiling by at least three other pitchers in the Cards' system, that speaks more to the remarkable depth of talent the organisation has built on the mound than any failing of Trevor himself.
5. Kolten Wong, 2B
I really wanted to go with Tyrell Jenkins here, as I think his pure upside is phenomenal, but Wong's performance in full-season ball straight out of the draft, coupled with his non-pitcherness, forces me to give him the nod.
When Wong was taken in the first round of the draft this year, there was much sturm und drang, with the cries of Pete Kozma thrown about occasionally becoming deafening. I myself wasn't overly fond of the pick, but as I said at the time, this player has very, very little in common with the Cards' last first-round middle infield folly. Kolten Wong, whatever else you might want to say about him, is a hitter. And what do hitters do? That's right. Hitters hit. And that's just what Wong has done since entering pro ball, to the tune of an .887 OPS and better than a third of his hits going for extra bases. Personally, I would like to see him walk more often, but his low strikeout rate helps to mitigate that concern somewhat.
Wong does everything else well enough -- with the odd exception of stealing bases -- but it's his bat that will carry him to St. Louis in short order. Jason Parks of BPro recently rated him the best second base prospect in baseball now that Jason Kipnis has graduated, and I don't necessarily disagree with that assessment. Kolten Wong still wouldn't have been my first choice in the first round -- I wanted Henry Owens or Brandon Nimmo -- but so far he's looking like an extremely smart pick.
6. Tyrell Jenkins, RHP
Yet another Cardinal pitching prospect with an enormous ceiling, Jenkins sits behind guys like Wong and Rosenthal only on his youth and distance from the majors. He has all the tools to be a top flight pitcher down the road; time is the most important element needed for Jenkins' personal cauldron. A power fastball, a power curveball, and multi-sport athleticism all point to a big future for Tyrell, who could be lacing up his quarterback shoes for Baylor right now if he had made a different decision. I think we can all agree we're very thankful he didn't.
That's not to say it's all sunshine for Jenkins, of course. He's been more hittable to this point than you might expect from a pitcher with his stuff, and while his strikeout rate is good, it isn't really blow the doors off brilliant. Those two things together say to me this is a pitcher still very much in the process of refining his repertoire, and his extremely low walk rate (just 2.09 BB/9!), tells me he's around the plate pretty much all the time. Jenkins has shown some rather extreme groundball tendencies in his pro career so far, with 59% worm burners this season. So he throws hard, spins a good curve, doesn't walk anyone, and keeps the ball on the ground. Sounds pretty good to me.
7. Zack Cox, 3B
I talked about Cox at fair length last week when looking at the Cards' recent run of draft picks, so I won't belabour the point by giving a full breakdown of his talents here. Suffice to say he's reached Double A in his first full season and has an OPS over .800 there. There's still plenty of work to be done, but to date Zack Cox has really done just about everything you would hope to see him do.
8. Matt Adams, 1B
Ah, here we go. One of the toughest nuts to crack for me in putting this list together, and sure to generate more discussion than he's probably worth. Matt Adams is an offensive force of nature, setting a new home run record for the Springfield Cardinals this year and putting up video game numbers for much of the season. When you put up the kind of production Matt Adams has in 2011, you make prospect lists.
Then again, when you have the question marks attached that Matt Adams does, you don't rank higher than eighth on prospect lists. The bad body thing has been gone over ad nauseum, so I won't say too much about it here. Still, if the Cardinals were to buy this kid a big crate full of Beachbody products you wouldn't hear me complaining.
More importantly (to me, at least), are the questions about his plate approach and the simple fact of his position. While Adams doesn't strike out all that often for a slugger, his walk rate is barely over 8% for the year, leading me to wonder if higher level pitching will take advantage of him. The park effect of Springfield on left-handed hitters shouldn't be ignored, either, meaning his overall power output could take a significant hit in the future. And more than anything, if you're looking for a reason not to love Matt Adams, just look at that position listed next to his name. The offensive demands on a first baseman in the major leagues are enormous, such that any player limited to playing there should have a healthy dose of skepticism attached to their future value.
All that aside, Matt Adams has had an historically great year, and while he may not have prototypical shape to his production, his bat will get him a chance, be it in St. Louis or elsewhere.
9. Joe Kelly, RHP
You're probably looking at this right now and thinking, "Wow, that's an awfully aggressive ranking for a guy with Kelly's numbers, when there are so many other options." And you know what? You're probably right. Putting Kelly this high, ahead of, well, the next couple players on this list, is pretty aggressive. What can I say? I'm a believer in Joe Kelly.
Kelly is still relatively new to pitching, having converted to the mound in college, but has the kind of arm scouts dream about. Even as a starter he sits easy in the mid-90s, and his fastball has hard downward movement that has produced outstanding groundball rates in his career. At Quad Cities last year Kelly racked up a 65% GB rate; this year at Palm Beach it was 62% but has fallen slightly in Springfield to 55%.
It's mostly still potential over production for Kelly at this point, but his Double A FIP stands at 4.46, which isn't terrible considering the hitting environment. He's been bitten hard by the home run bug since moving up to Springfield, and walks are still an issue. All the same, Kelly is a former college closer with a big arm and less than five years worth of mileage on said arm. The transition he's made to starter hasn't been without bumps, but all the pieces are there; it's just a matter of whether or not he can put them all together.
10. Jordan Swagerty, RHP
Swagerty and Joe Kelly are an interesting pair, and I like having them back-to-back here as college closers trying to move into starting. Where Kelly is the fireballer still trying to put it all together, Swagerty has good but not great stuff to go along with plus control and a knack for aggressively attacking the strike zone. It's also somewhat interesting (to me, at least), to note the similarity between Swagerty and Jess Todd. Both were undersized pitchers with high-effort deliveries, both featured aggressive strike-throwing as their best feature, both saw three levels of the minors in their first full season. Weird, huh?
That being said, Swagerty's stuff is a little better than Todd's. Swagerty throws a little harder, sitting around 91-92 instead of touching 92, and his curve is probably a bit stronger than Todd's slider. Still, all the questions that followed Todd up the ladder certainly apply to Jordan as well, the main one being how well his smallish frame and mechanics will play for durability. And I'll say the same thing about Swagerty now I said about Todd then: keep him in the rotation until he proves he can't do it. After being moved to the bullpen this season to limit his innings, I fully expect to see Swagerty get another chance to prove if he can or can't next season. He doesn't have the upside of a Joe Kelly, but his ability to fill the strike zone up gives him at least as good a chance.
11. Matt Carpenter, 3B
Things Matt Carpenter has drawn a walk while doing:
- Showering
- Throwing a frisbee
- Watering house plants
- Washing dishes
- Getting laid
- Updating his Netflix queue
- Striking out
- Drawing another, different walk
Matt Carpenter is one of the oddest prospects I can honestly ever remember. He's almost a one-tool player, but that one tool is one you almost never see in isolation. Sure, some guys with huge power draw tons of walks, but how often do players with ISOs below .200 have BB/K ratios of almost 1.3? Hell, how often does anyone have a BB/K ratio of almost 1.3?
I like Carpenter's defense. Average, maybe a tick better to my eye. He has just enough power I don't think pitchers can knock the bat out of his hands. He makes hard contact most of the time when he does choose to swing. In the end, though, Matt Carpenter's greatest skill is, essentially, his ability to do nothing. Isn't that odd?
12. Ryan Jackson, SS
First, I'm not even going to discuss the glove. It's great, and pretty much everyone knows it. Ryan Jackson's glove = Matt Carpenter's plate discipline.
Jackson is a very worrisome prospect, mostly because of where he's playing. He's spent the 2011 season in the offense-inflating paradise of Hammons Field, and that makes it much harder to get an accurate read on how well he's actually hitting. Sure, we have ballpark- and league-adjusted numbers, but for an individual player those are a little scattershot for me. Park factors don't affect all players in the same way.
What I think we can assume is that Jackson's eleven home runs this season are probably at the higher end of what we can expect to see from him. The 28% line drive rate at Palm Beach last year, and the 21% in Double A this year, though, well, that's not going to be nearly as volatile.
I will say this: Jackson was a much more attractive prospect to me last year, when he posted a 13.5% walk rate at Quad Cities, as opposed to his 7.5% this year. Walk rates do tend to drop some as a player moves up the ladder, but not usually in such a dramatic fashion. What it means I'm not sure, but getting that number back up closer to 2010 levels than those from 2011 would make a world of difference in how confident I am in Ryan Jackson's bat.
Really, though, Jackson has shown offensive production right around league average at all three full season stops he's played at. With his glove, league average batsmanship would make him a very, very valuable player.
13. Boone Whiting, RHP
Boone Whiting makes me nervous. He really does. He's not a big guy. He doesn't throw hard. He isn't left-handed. His best pitch is a devilish changeup that really does have the Bugs Bunny sort of feel to it. In other words, Boone Whiting is a shorter version of P.J. Walters. And so yeah, that makes me nervous.
On the other hand, Boone Whiting may also very well be the organisation's Minor League Pitcher of the Year. He's struck out better than a batter per inning, and his K:BB is better than 5:1. Maybe he's just another in a long, long line of polished pitchers who dominate the low minors only to hit the wall at higher levels. But I think there's enough reason to think otherwise that I hope you'll forgive me a bit of optimism. Plus, I like his delivery. (You're probably going to want to mute that.) And he has a great baseball name. So there's that.
14. Anthony Garcia, OF
Garcia and Oscar Taveras are sort of linked together in my mind. Both play corner outfield positions, both are still teenagers, and both have shown high level offensive production already. Of course, Taveras is six months younger and doing it in a full-season league, which is why he's number two on this list and Garcia is fourteenth. Still, playing at Johnson City this year at 19, Garcia has an on-base percentage over .400 and an OPS of .941. His walk rate is solid at 9.7%, though it has taken a fall from his brilliant GCL campaign last year, when he walked more than he struck out. (19:18 in 146 PAs.) Of his 56 hits this season, 24 have gone for extra bases.
Garcia has played predominantly left field to this point in his career, which could indicate the club doesn't think much of his defense, but I don't honestly know for certain that's the case. He does have four triples on the year, which would seem to suggest he runs fairly well. Given the dearth of information about his defense, I'm just going to leave it alone. If he continues to develop his offense along the path he's suggested so far, it won't really matter where he plays anyway.
15. Charlie Tilson, OF
I really struggled with this last spot. I really, really did. So many intriguing players for just this one last spot. I wanted to put Tyler Rahmatulla here but college guys tearing up short season ball get skepticism from me these days. I like John Gast, but his strikeouts are going to have to come up before I really fall in love. Thought about Adam Reifer, but an injury plus being a pure reliever took him off. Keith Butler has done amazing things, and I'm a definite believer, but he's a reliever in the low-ish minors. I considered Roberto De La Cruz, but he turns down walks the way Matt Carpenter insists on them. Adron Chambers was probably the toughest player of all to leave off this list, but I think his ceiling is something like what Jon Jay should be, i.e. an extra outfielder, and there are other players whose ceilings trump Chambers' proximity, in my estimation at least.
So instead of any of those players I went with a pure gut pick and took the guy further away than any of them, the guy with a couple dozen at-bats that weren't against high school pitching. I'll forgive you if you think I'm a little off.
But hey, I really like Tilson. Plenty of others are very down on his ceiling, saying he'll never hit for any kind of power and things like that. I look at him and I see a Steve Finley type. I think there's more pop in there than most see. His swing right now is still that of a metal bat player, and I think he'll fix that soon. The speed is very real, and he should cover vast swaths of ground in center field. The arm isn't reported as great, but I've come to be very skeptical of scouting reports on position players' arms. I'll take Tilson's athleticism and quick-twitch muscle every day of the week and trust it can develop into production. I won't be right every time, but it's a bet I can live with every time.
Maybe I'm just being perverse rating Tilson above so many other guys, sort of like how back in the late 90s I always thought Martina Hingis was more attractive than Anna Kournikova. Or maybe I'm right. Time will tell, I suppose.
In putting this together, the most encouraging thing for me was the final number of prospects on the list. See, this was originally supposed to be a more standard top ten list. Finding I had extra player I really wanted to get to, though, I made it a dozen. Then a baker's dozen. Then fifteen. I could easily have gone to an even 20, if not for time and attention span constraints. So this is my list, fifteen players strong, with another ten or so who got serious consideration.
Gouge away.
Edit: I'm sure many of you have noticed by now I did not include Maikel Cleto. This was not on purpose, but rather the result of simple forgetfulness. See, kids, this is why you should be organised and construct your writings carefully, rather than sitting down at the computer to type up an impromptu 4000 word manuscript on a whim. Sadly, seeing as how I didn't realise my mistake until the current time of 2:38 am Wednesday, I'm going to have to just sort of shoehorn him in. Let's see, um, how about right after Ryan Jackson? That seems about right to me. I don't think Cleto has as good a chance of harnessing his control and staying in a starting rotation as either Kelly or Swagerty, and while 100 mph is 100 mph, his lower chances of starting long term drive him down a bit. The raw stuff is good enough to trust over Boone Whiting, though, for now anyway. So that gives us 16 instead of 15 and bumps the last few guys down a spot. Good enough.
Baron out.
The Baron's Playlist for the 31st of August, 2011 (click for 8tracks)
"I Ran With Love But I Couldn't Keep Up" - Spectrals
"Leave Me Be" - Spectrals
"Sad Fuzz" - Ty Segall
"You're Not Me" - Ty Segall
"Arms Against Atrophy" - Titus Andronicus
"A Pot in Which To Piss" - Titus Andronicus
"You Will Always Bring Me Flowers" - Shannon and the Clams
"Baby Don't Do It" - Shannon and the Clams
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Comments
Do we have a LHP prospect that has any MLB potential at all?
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 31, 2011 4:01 AM EDT reply actions
starting or relieving?
Best starting prospects would probably be tyler lyons and john gast.
Best relieving prospects would probably be sam freeman and nick greenwood.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 4:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
also, ryan copeland (starter) and justin wright (reliever)
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 4:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the conventional wisdom on nick additon is that he is at best a long man type on a big league team.
poor velocity, doesn’t have a secondary pitch to make up for his weak fastball.
still, a lot of his critics thought he’d flame out before he hit AAA. strange things happen in baseball.
so, if you are driving the nick additon bandwagon, drive proudly!
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
What Tom said.
Also, I would add Anthony Ferrara to that list. He hasn’t turned into the guy I was hoping he would based on his stuff before being drafted, but he’s doing a decent job down in Quad Cities and he’s still young.
Or die trying.
by the red baron on Aug 31, 2011 4:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Hector hernandez
He had a good outing last night
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 31, 2011 8:44 AM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
This post gave me pause and made me feel very foolish
I was about to respond with “Um, Trevor Rosenthal??? Duh.”
This whole time I was somehow under the impression that Trevor Rosenthal was a lefty. Like, until today. When I saw your comment, and then looked up Trevor Rosenthal, and actually paid attention the part at the top that says “Bats/Throws: R/R”
Yeah, not sure where the hell that came from. My best guess is that I first heard him discussed around the same time as Gast (maybe they were drafted at the same time? I dunno. I can’t keep track of all this stuff. I think maybe they both emerged as possible sleeper prospects to keep an eye on around the same time… maybe).
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Hingis
over Kournikova? That is perverse lol
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
That's nothing.
You ought to see what this guy does to toasters.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Aug 31, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And tomatoes.
"Sometimes you scare me." - azruavatar
by spants on Aug 31, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was really trying to block the tomatoe thing out of my mind.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I don't agree
(I know you’re just kidding but this is a topic that I find kind of interesting)
The thing is, with Hingis (I’m very proud of that little pun just now, sue me) nobody ever had to view her primarily in terms of her looks, because she was a number 1 caliber tennis player. Kournikova has never been anywhere near that good.
Kournikova is a good looking girl, don’t get me wrong. But she’s not Helen of Troy or anything. I always thought Maria Sharapova was just as attractive as Anna Kournikova, and she was also a top of the line player.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 31, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Basically I feel that the Anna Kournikova phenomenon was much ado about nothing.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
caroline wozniacki out does them both.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
in terms of tennis ability + hotness, yes.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know about you guys.
But when I grade tennis players hotness, I grade their hotness not their tennis ability. If you’re talking the most fun to watch, then maybe i could see the argument but I don’t watch tennis (men’s or women’s) so I won’t grade them by their ability seeing as I don’t know their ability.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
at some point you’re so bad at tennis that it’s disingenuous to categorize them like that. choosing anna kournikova, for instance, as hottest tennis player is like saying the brothers with the most home runs in MLB history are hank and tommie aaron.
by DanUpBaby on Aug 31, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Good pint
Furthermore, because Kournikova is known more for being attractive than for actually being good at tennis (don’t get me wrong, she’s good enough to be a professional but she was never a top tier player that I can remember) I think it makes her seem more attractive to people than she really is. Because that’s her main claim to fame, really. There are tennis players who are just as attractive and are way better. So they are thought of more as tennis players than purely as attractive famous women.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Anna not a top-tier player?
She got to No. 8 in the world as a singles player, and was the top ranked woman doubles player in the world (and won several grand slams as a doubles player). She stopped playing because of spine injury.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 31, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
she never won a singles title, did she?
I think to be a top tier player, you need to prove you can win a tournament.
Huh
I really didn’t think she had ever been ranked that highly so I guess my memory was fuzzy. But as mattyfrommo says, you could still make an argument depending on your definition of “top tier”. I don’t think she’s quite there. She was way better than I was giving her credit for though (again, bad memory, no slight intended).
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Also, even if she was better than I thought
I still believe in my “she was more famous for her looks than for her tennis” thesis. The Anna Kournikova thing got ridiculous for a little while.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
well kournkovaasdsalh was a good player, just never top of the line
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Well if she was as bad as you are making her out to be I might agree.
But as pointed out below, she was better than you are making her out to be. So, i don’t think that’s a very good comparison since Anna was considerably better than 13 homer Tommie.
then just say off the top you don't watch tennis.
i was simply saying that in terms of being overall awesome, wozniacki takes the cake. and it isn’t close.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I do watch tennis
and I enjoy watching women’s tennis….I mean, they have athletic bodies, typically nice legs, and they wear short skirts, for heaven’s sake, what’s not to like. Sharapova, Pornikova and Wozniacki are all beautiful, and I thought Hingis was hot, though not quite as hot as the others. I even liked Graf, Evert and Seles. But, like MaytheForschbw/u., I was enthralled by Sabatini.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 31, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I have always thought it was kind of charming
that Agassi ended up getting past his wild days, broke up with Brooke Shields, and settled down with “normal” Steffi Graf.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
i was replying to gabe.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Got that
You were just convenient.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Sep 1, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't get the fascination with Wozniacki.
I think she’ll be perpetually outmatched by whatever woman’s play goes on a run that week. Woz is incredibly consistent but her peak talent just isn’t as good as one of the Williams or Clijsters or Stosur.
And if I want to watch a grind-out-the-win type player, my preference is Schiavone.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
besides the fact she's beautiful, in my age range, and really effing good at tennis...
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
She's always going to be the bridesmaid at these tourneys
just warning you.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
oh i'm well aware.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me guess,
Wozniacki is Bosnian.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Aug 31, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hah. probably.
but seriously she’s danish.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, I'm late to the tennis subthread,
hot female players edition.
Allow me to mention Maria Kirilenko. I’ll give you a minute to GIS your own pics…
Any room left on the "Fire Tony" bandwagon? Need 1 ticket.
hantuchova also should make the list.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Pshaw
Monica Seles was hotter than both, especially with the way she grunted.
she was my fav for a long time.
none of them touched Gabriella Sabatini though.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I vote Sharipova
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I had a thing for Hingis too
I can’t explain it. Just did.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Tomato...Tomahto
Really we are talking about young athletic women. I mean there are some ugly chicks in every line of work, but I think almost all of the top womens tennis players are hot.
Also speaking of female tennis players
Apparently Venus Williams just pulled out of the U.S. Open because she’s been diagnosed with an autoimmune disease called Sjogren’s syndrome. Weird.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
My wife reminded me that she had a pretty serious blood clot a little while ago too.
I have no idea if that would be related but I assume it could be based on what I’ve read about the syndrome.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
the blood clot was Serena
Sjogren’s syndrome is Venus
surely you can tell the difference by looking
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
D'oh
OK, that’s not my fault. She said it was Venus!
OK, yes, I did fail to bother looking it up on Google…
Shut up!
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
(it's ok mrs bobo we're just joshin')
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
If y'all aren't careful I'm gonna end up accused of a hate crime.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
VEB would never get organized enough to get that done.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Ryan Jackson has a lot of potential
but I’m also wary of the inflated offensive numbers at Springfield. All too often that place skews offensive stats. Can’t they do something to make Hammons less hitter friendly? It’s only 315 feet to left – at least raise the wall another 10 feet or so.
wait, no Seth Blair?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 31, 2011 8:46 AM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
and does this post mean Keith law reads VEB?
Hello Keith!!! Why no likey the Wong?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 31, 2011 8:48 AM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
obligatory
not that there’s anything wrong with that
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I think you are all nuts.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
by hittmeier on Aug 31, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The depth our system has accumulated in the last 3 years is pretty astonishing
When you consider that we’ve also traded away some very good prospects during that same timeframe and graduated quite a few others.
I like the aggressive grade on Taveras — I think he’s the real deal. The list of guys his age that are hitting that well in full season ball is chock full of elite current (like Bryce Harper) and former (, and his size, speed, and pop are tools that could translate into a 4 WAR corner outfielder at some point. I’m much higher on him than I am Wong or Cox and that includes the positional adjustments for those two. I think Carlos Gonzalez is a very good comp for him, but I still want to see his plate discipline and doubles power translate at higher levels: he ain’t gonna hit .380 forever.
Other notes, based mostly on personal opinion:
- Kelly is too high, as is Swagerty. I would have Matt Carpenter and Ryan Jackson in front of them mostly due to proximity to the majors and having less to project at this point. They aren’t likely to be All-Stars, but you can at least see them making a contribution. Swagerty and Kelly? I don’t think you can definitively say that about either of them at this point. I like them both, but on based on upside.
- I would also have Carpenter and Jackson in front of Matt Adams. I think Adams is a left handed Bob Hamelin (since we’re doing 1990’s throwbacks today): He can hit….but he can’t do much of anything else: field, run, take walks, or chew bubble gum.. He doesn’t profile as a guy who can hit .300 in the majors (doesn’t have extraordinary contact ability, can’t run), and his power numbers are certainly inflated due to the park he’s playing in. I think he’s a fun prospect, don’t get me wrong, but if I could make him a centerpiece to a deal for a player that helps the current MLB Cardinals next year I would do it in a heartbeat. I hear the Giants might be in the market for a left handed hitting 1st baseman…………………
- Lastly, I find the inclusion of Tilson interesting. Which Steve Finley are we talking about? The light hitting Steve Finley pre-age 30? Or the 30 homer slugging Steve Finley from age 30-38? Those are two entirely different players. I think Tilson is a much better match for the former than the latter, imho. I just don’t think I’d put him on this list right now.
Considering the amount of projection that’s going into some of these selections, I can see why you’d include Tilson, but not at the expense of someone like Tommy Pham, who has put up a .314/.398/.527/.925 in 300 PA’s at AA the last couple of years (but who suffered a season ending injury this year) is striking to me. I like Tilson’s upside too, but Pham has just about all the tools that Tilson has, has hit in the minors, and is closer to the big leagues. All signs point to the inclusion of Pham over Tilson, but perhaps it’s just that you and I rate players a bit differently.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Okay, I give up
who did you mean to include between the open paren and the comma in the third line? Also, was a close paren planned?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 31, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
That was supposed to be Carlos Gonzalez in parenthesis
I forgot to back and paste that in.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
fourstick, I don't mean this in a rude way
but have you seen Matt Adams play? He’s not as unathletic as you propose. He’s got a bad body, I’ll give you that. His numbers this year are nothing short of Ruthian for a 21 year old playing in the Texas League who completely skipped Palm Beach (he turned 22 today). His wRC+ is 146! That’s a park adjusted stat.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa502166&position=1B
For comparison, Colby Rasmus put up a wRC+ of 152 in Springfield.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9893&position=OF
Of course I agree we should be suspect of player #‘s coming out of Springfield but Adams has flat out raked everywhere he’s been. I think he belongs in the Cards top 10 prospect list, which is saying something because the Cards have talent in the system.
I don't think that you necessarily disagree with one another.
I think fourstick is understandably skeptical of Adams being ranked over players that play other positions. As he points out, the offensive production expected of a MLB first baseman are huge. With his lowish walk rate and less than upper-tier contact ability, one has to worry about how Adams’s success in AA will translate as he moves up. Springfield is a left-handed hitter’s paradise, as Rasmus, Descalso, and others have shown, so being skeptical of Adams feels appropritate to me. Still, I feel he is a top 10 prospect in the St. Louis system and I think fourstick probably does, too. Like fourstick, I also think the club should be shopping him this offseason, perhaps for a middle infield solution for the big league club.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Still, I feel he is a top 10 prospect in the St. Louis system and I think fourstick probably does, too.
I would put him at #10 or #11 right now, but I think that says more about the strength of our system than it does about Matt Adams. I think he’s a B-/C+ prospect.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'd put him at #9 or #10, I think.
I think he is a B prospect. I’d set out to trade him this offseason.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think his greatest value to our club is as a trade chip
and this would be the best possible time to trade him for pitching or middle infield help.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I would trade him too....
…but for something moore substantial than a MI. I think we cud get a #3 or #4-type starter for him, perhaps higher if we hit the right club (Giants). I like him as insurance in case we don’t sign You Know Who (for later, anycow), but like Wallace he brings moore to the club being culled rather than milked.
Yes, I went there…
;=8)
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O
I think one could argue that this ORGANIZATION'S greatest weakness is the MI.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Do I think he can hit?
Yes. Do I think he’s Joey Votto? No, absolutely not, but that seems to be what you’re implying — that he’s an elite hitter. I’ve not seem him live, but I’ve seen some video of him, and my misgivings about him as a player are these:
- Adams value comes from a high average and lots of power, two things that are inflated by the park and league that he plays in, and are also things that tend to drop off a bit as players move up in the minors.
- He has above average contact rates so far in the minors, but considering his lack of plate discipline, I have a hard time believing that this is sustainable in the long run. I think he projects as a .280/.320/.450 player. That’s good, but that’s not near enough to start at first base in the big leagues….
- ….which is his other problem. He can only play one position. You saw how much Brett Wallace’s value diminished when teams decided that he couldn’t play 3B, and he profiled as a much better “bad bodied” hitter than Matt Adams does, mainly due to his plate discipline and ability to square up the ball consistently.
Also, let’s get some perspective here. Here’s a list of left handed batters and their corresponding wRC+ at Springfield:
So, you give me Colby Rasmus, I give you Daniel Descalso and Matt Carpenter, who I wanted to rank above Adams in the original comment that seems to have sparked your ire. Carpenter has also “raked everywhere he’s been” and his plate discipline (more projectable to MLE) and more demanding defensive position (where he is an excellent defender) make him a better prospect than Adams is. Hell, I’m not sure a Colby Rasmus comparison is anything to hang your hat on at this point — he’s not been able to replicate those numbers anywhere else so far in his young career.
Everyone gets hung up on the homers, but it’s just not that hard to hit lots of homers in the Texas League (as the numbers for Henley attest) — I firmly believe Brett Wallace would have hit 30 bombs in Springfield given a full season. I’m looking at the contact rate that seems unsustainable and the below average plate discipline, which are staples of good professional hitters at the AAA and MLB levels. Can these be improved upon? Sure. But suffice to say that a prospect who can only play one position at a below average defensive level REALLY has to hit in order to be considered an elite prospect in my book.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
We'll see what happens
in the AFL. You seem to think his power is a Springfield aberration ala Descalso. Descalso. The power is what makes Adams a prospect. If it evaporates when he moves to AAA, then … we’ll he is not interesting any more.
I give you these numbers
you tell me who this starting first baseman is:
11 seasons, 4262 AB, 130 HRs, .791 lifetime OPS, 108 lifetime OPS+, 1.6 K/BB ratio, lifetime B-Ref WAR is 17.0, lifetime FanGraphs WAR is 12.7, no AS appearances, no GGs, no votes for RoY or MVP, no SS awards, yet still gets play as a starting 1bman. I think it’s possible that Adams could have a better career than this other lefty.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 31, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Close, but Pena has more power than this guy, and also has
a SS and a GG award, to go with votes for RoY and MVP.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 31, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Hint
He’s currently acting as back-up to a rookie for a division-leading team.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 31, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Overbay. But I had to look it up
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter
Lyle Overbay?
Funny you bring him up: His best two years in the minors also came in the Texas League, and his stats from A, A+, and AA are eerily similar to Matt Adams, with the notable exception that he walked more often.
He’s only hit 20 homers twice and batted .300 once since coming to the big leagues, yet he consistently hit .330+ and slugging .550+ in the minors.
This is what I’m saying — just because a guy looks like the second coming of Babe Ruth in the Texas League doesn’t say much at all about how he’s going to perform at AAA or the major league level.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That's
what I’m saying. I think it’s possible that Adams has a better career than Overbay, and apparently he’s still considered serviceable as a MLB player (not IMO, tho).
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 31, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Overbay isn't even close to the right comp
I’m not a big believer in counting stats, but Adams has played in 110 AA games this year at age 22 (skipping high A altogether). He has hit 31 homeruns. This is a team record, and he was recently named MVP of the Texas league. It is not easy to hit 30 HRs in 110 games at any level. That rate translates to 42 HR over 150 games.
Overbay played in nearly twice as many AA games (204) and hit a grand total of 22 homeruns at that level at ages 23 and 24. They had a reasonably similar slugging percentage at AA, but how they got there, and the type of player each is, is totally different. Overbay did it by hitting for an unsustainably high average and hitting a ton of doubles. Adams hits bombs, and has maintained a considerable slugging percentage advantage 573 v. 530 at a younger age.
Is he a lock to maintain this level of production? Absolutely not. If he was he’d be a top 5 prospect. Is he a high average/doubles hitter? No, nor is he likely to become one even if he only hits 25-30 HR with a 300 average at higher levels.
I don’t like his walk rate either, but what never gets mentioned in these discussions is that he is 8 months older than Cox, and has a higher walk rate at the same level. Adams has an above-average “hit” tool, even for a first baseman. Take a look at his strikeout rate.
Furthermore, Adams walk rate has improved steadily this year, and also went from 6.5 last year to 8.1 this year while jumping a level. The last six to eight weeks he has gone from a guy jumping on the first or second pitch he can drive to one that more typically works deep counts. This change in approach seems to have affected his counting stats somewhat, but is an encouraging sign that he is working on the right things.
I couldn’t agree more with RB’s ranking here.
Age 21, not 22.
He turned 22 today … but I agree with the rest of your analysis.
I will become a believer when he arrives in Memphis next spring
and sets the town on fire with his play. Until then, however, he remains behind Matt Carpenter on my list.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
as i was reading this article
i kept thinking about how much more interesting it is than it would have been 3 years ago
for all of mo’s doofusness at the major league level recently, he has constructed a hell of a farm in a short period of time
by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
you mean ludhow has
i’ve lost some faith in mo recently.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Mo has been instrumental
at fostering an environment were scouting and player development can thrive. If we’re giving Luhnow credit, Mo also needs some credit for giving Jeff the leash he needs to do his job effectively and listening to those guys.
He’s also directly responsible for negotiating the contracts of Martinez and Taveras, and they are 2 of the best prospects in the system.
Let’s keep in mind: Scouting and player development is what Mo does best. I actually think he’s below average at negotiating deals with other teams and with agents of free agent players. But he’s damn good at procuring talent.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I must be remembering wrong or maybe I read bad articles
But I thought negotiating deals and contracts was supposed to be Mo’s strength. Again, I am being literal and not sarcastic in saying I very well may just be remembering things wrong, or I read something that was just wrong.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
I vote for us to have two GMs.
Let Mo deal with roster construction and talent evaluation, and let the other one do the deal negotiations and trades and telling LaRussa to go fuck himself.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ah, the ole Michael AND Jim arrangement.
"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan
by flipthebird15 on Aug 31, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Thing is, you really can't do this with both having an equal say
since the latter will always be looking to deal the assets of the former.
I don’t trust the ownership group that we have to mediate these issues effectively, which is part of the reason why Walk Jocketty is in Cincinnati now.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think that was a joke...
Or at least I think he realized it wasn’t going to happen and its just wishful thinking.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought the organization had been restructured.
in any case, it’s ludhow in charge of scouting, drafting and, to a large extent, player development.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's Luhnow
And I believe he is now just in charge of scouting and the draft and the player development was given to someone else, I don’t recall who.
John Vuch is the guy handling player development.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
this is sort of disturbing though
garner really good talent, and then give it away. ok he’s not that bad, but that’s how that read
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
if we are giving TLR credit for making trades
might as well give ludhow credit for making draft picks.
Grit != flat out sucking.
It's really fun having so many pitchers that have some potential to do something in the majors.
Big velocity guys like Martinez and Cleto to great breaking ball guys like Miller and Swagerty, there’s so many guys to like in this system.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Agreed....
but with the added caveat that it’s also terrifying that our farm system is built on the back of pitching prospects, who have a long sordid history of flaming out.
Just to keep that glass at half full instead of 2/3, as it were.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
There has to be some corrollary to TINSTAAPP though
along the lines of TISATAARBPOPP (There Is Such A Thing As A Really Big Pile Of Pitching Prospects). Any one guy is a sucker bet, but if you put enough of them in play your odds of getting something good out become pretty favorable.
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
While this is true
You can’t make the claim that having a TISATAARBPOPP is better than having ARBPOPPP (A Really Big Pile Of Position Player Prospects).
Thing is, I’m in the middle here. I’d much rather have a farm system full of pitching prospects than position player prospects, full well knowing the risk. IMHO, it’s far better to groom your own stud pitchers than to try and purchase them on the free agent market, where teams like Boston and New York will bid up their prices to unnatural extremes, while still having the inherent risk of having them fall apart tomorrow. Still, it’s clear that having multiple pitching prospects is much more risky than having multiple position player prospects within your top 20 players on the farm.
I’d much rather focus on building a staff through the draft and Latin America, while mining the market for one or two year deals on undervalued commodities (like Jake Westbrook). This will allow me to save my big money for position players and pay them large AAV’s on 5 year max deals.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Pitching Prospects
I agree with the risk assessment and paying market value for high-end starting pitching. I would also add that even if they don’t mature into high-end starters, they still have value as rotation and bullpen filler. If they make the big leagues as middle- or back-of-the-rotation starters, that is a nice value. Paying under $1 million for those types of starters is far preferable to paying $8 to $10 million. It’s a broke record at this point. But, if the club re-signs Pujols, they are going to need cheap arms in the rotation.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
took the words right out of my mouth
if we can pay league minimum for one of our big pool of “maybe he can make the bottom of the rotation” guys from the minors, that’s a big improvement over the Lohse salary for the 5 spot, and a lot of extra scratch to go spend on big bats.
What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?
how's the saying go?
oh, yeah. you can never be too thin, too pretty, or have too much pitching.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, you can be too thin.
don’t make me post an image.. i even pulled one up
DFA Corey Patterson
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
by tehzachatak on Aug 31, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
or maybe something is wrong with my dumbass work computer.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
and yet
As we see with the brewers, Pitching is the most important part of the team.
Grit != flat out sucking.
And yet...
only one of those pitchers is home grown. The rest were acquired by gutting their entire farm system, including the trading of some pretty useful players that would help them win for a long time down the road.
I, for one, am actually glad to see them do this, as they are paving the way for the Cardinals to dominate this division for the next 4-5 years unless they somehow retain Fielder, Greinke, and Marcum or the Reds somehow sign some pitchers.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
This is also what we said when they "gutted" the farm to trade for CC.
Three years later, they’re the best team in the division again.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
Didn't they trade LaPorta for Sabathia?
Trading one high-end prospect for one pitcher is a bit less than the package of prospects given up for both Greinke and Marcum. I think their system is worse off today than it was after the Sabathia trade. That being said, they have this season with Fielder on the club and then one more season with Marcum and Greinke, IIRC. Basically, a two-year window. Of course, with an aging position player core (assuming Pujols is re-signed), the Cardinals’ window probably isn’t much longer.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I trust them to rebound better than most teams now. They're not the Jim Hendry run Cubs.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
They have a fine starting rotation for the next two years.
The Giants have shown that is enough to be competitive. Braun, Weeks, and Hart will be the lineup core, it seems. That’s enough to compete in the NL Central, for sure.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
This is true
But they would probably have been better off trading Prince Fielder (who I give them 0% chance of signing) for a couple of pitching prospects who could have helped this season and for sure in 2012 and 2013 and keeping Lawrie and Odorizzi.
Think of their lineup next year:
Weeks
Morgan
Braun
Lawrie
Hart
Lucroy
Betancourt
Plus whatever bat they sign to play 1B (maybe they sign Lance Berkman in the offseason if they trade Fielder)
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
They should have three first/supp round picks to help restock the farm next year, right?
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
And could they buyout K-Rod's option (which is now mutual) and still offer arb?
His whole contract confuses me.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
Yes.
I have no idea what its actual terms are nowadays.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I can't believe they are entertaining the thought of bringing him back though
Also, is Mat Gamel the Milwaukee version of Allen Craig or is he more like Tyler Greene?
I mean, is he so bad defensively that they can’t spare the thought of his bat in the lineup instead of Casey effing McGeehee?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
They might
It just depends on who some of these guys sign with. Regardless, it’s not likely that any of the players they draft next June have any impact on the 2013 or 2014 squads, at which point they will be pretty much rebuilding the roster anyway. With the above players still in house, they would be contending in those years most likely.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
they're going to the playoffs
they’re not trading fielder.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He's a free agent after the season.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah, i know
and, they’re going to the playoffs, and not trading. am i suddenly obtuse? that’s possible. or is everybody just stoned?
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
ok. that makes sense.
i’m just operating on the current timeline. and i’m drinking. at work. viva el professorial! kids, always be suspicious.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
did they evacuate you yet?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
just my pants.
Situation is on the other side of the flightline from me.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
huh?
did you have an earthquake and hurricane as well? no, wait, i’m dumb and missing something.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
This was a hypothetical.
It started on the premise that, instead of trading Lawrie et al. for pitching, they should have traded Fielder for pitching before the 2011 season because it would have given them a better lineup after 2011 than the post-Fielder lineup.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
well, that's just trading to win later.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Not if the Fielder for Bumgarner
deal that was rumored was actually on the table.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Other than you
where else was it rumored?
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
I'm pretty sure I saw it on MLBTR
I know the Giants were interested in him and I know that the Brewers were looking for pitching. This would be the 2009 or 2010 off season.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He was definitely shopped
I think SF is intent on keeping their premium pitching.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
I don't see...
the Blue Jays, or especially the Royals as teams that would have been interested in Fielder.
When do pitchers and catchers report?
by cardzfanbub on Aug 31, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That was the original plan
Weeks and Fielder were shopped and the offers were for non-TOR pitchers. Dan Hudson who is with the Dbacks now was what the White Sox offered. What they did after that was plan B.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
Booo!!! I wanted a luddy for hudson deal last fall.
I will never forget that.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I thought there was a SF offer that was rumored
That was Bumgarner, another B pitching prospect and someone else for Fielder.
That said, it’s entirely possible that Lawrie will end up putting up Fielder type numbers for the next 6 seasons.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Personally
I hope he wins a friggin MVP.
I don’t think there was anything with the Giants. For one thing, Belt at that time was supposed to be future awesome. I know they talked, but over and over Melvin said he wanted to trade for top pitching. He didn’t want prospects or more position players.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
Context is important
I was making that case that instead of trading their top two prospects for Greinke and Marcum that they would have been better off trading Fielder to, say, San Francisco (as was rumored last year) for a couple of pitching prospects (say Madison Bumgarner and someone else).
They’d have been able to stay competitive past 2012. I find it hard to believe that’s going to happen now.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Not saying that I agree with the approach
but taking 2 shots at competing in the playoffs is worth it to the owner and management. I think they asked for Bumgarner and SF offered Sanchez. Screw another squirrely lefty with intermittent control problems.
Post 2012, they’ll start with Gallardo and Braun plus Peralta, Jungman and Bradley perhaps. I think they could be competitive, I just don’t think Melvin can do it. It would require him to go against all his tendencies. That other thread where you were being cynical about Tony’s tendencies sounded so much like Melvin.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
They gave up one good prospect for Sabathia.
Matt La Porta, who really hasn’t amounted to much and just recently got sent back down to AAA again.
What they gave up last offseason to acquire Marcum and Greinke pretty much gutted the high end talent that was left of their farm system, however. Greinke cost them Odorizzi (who was putting up Shelby Miller type numbers at A ball before scuffling a bit after promotion this season), and Marcum cost them Brett Lawrie, who hit .353/.415/.661 in AAA and has put up similar numbers (.329/.380/.682) in his first 100 MLB PA’s in the AL East with Toronto.
I thought Marcum would have a good year, and he has. But Lawrie looks like he could be a future All Star third baseman, and the Brewers are currently employing Casey McGeehee at that position. In 2013, the Brewers are going to wish they had Odorizzi and Lawrie to go with Ryan Braun, since I don’t see any what they can muster enough offense to beat the Phillies in a 7 game series.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
so missed the game over a little food poisoning or something
good thing myself and my stomach missed the ninth, then?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
No doubt...
I’d be surprised if they let Scrabble back on the plane home at this point.
I’d like to see him used more, but when you continue to walk the very guy you’ve been brought into the game to get out, it makes it more difficult.
Also — Ryan Theriot has the worst hands I’ve ever seen for a middle infielder.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
HE HAS HANDS
mind blown
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I didn't have that big of a problem with him walking Prince
Sure, it put the tying run on. But, Prince can tie it with one swing…easily. I was glad he was careful, albeit resulting in a walk, than to be caviler about the at bat and give up a home run.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
yeah...
I was more bothered by the ensuing walk from Salas…balls 3 and 4 weren’t anywhere close.
When do pitchers and catchers report?
by cardzfanbub on Aug 31, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
YES!
or this
or whatever is cool nowadays for saying, “I agree 100%)”.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Haven't actually seen much action on TV lately
Is Salas’s control withering or something?
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
he seemed wild last night
maybe he was rusty, idk, but the McGehee AB was not pretty at all then both pitches to Betancourt were up and in (although they turned out to be effective so maybe that was planned?)
by ArkansasTravs on Aug 31, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I was convinced that they were going to piss it away.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
it's stupid to go back and eat the thing that probably got me sick, right?
I did microwave it…
and it has bacon.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
If it has bacon, it's worth the risk
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter
Mmmmmmmmmm....bacon....
;=8)
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O
How about this for a prospect??!!
Better numbers all around than Rasmus!! cost controlled!! No errors YTD!!……
Oh wait…That’s Craig. Where is he??
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 31, 2011 10:19 AM EDT reply actions
I know, I know
I just want him to get more at bats.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 31, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I should have added...
Capable of playing second base!!
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 31, 2011 10:20 AM EDT reply actions
I don't care where!
Well, maybe a little, but Craig definitely should start in St. Louis next year.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter
Best second base prospect on baseball? Sweet!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 31, 2011 10:26 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Arizona Fall League
Here are the prospects participating in the Arizona Fall League. Some are mentioned in RB’s list.
1) Matt Adams
2) Oscar Taveras
3) Ryan Jackson
4) David Kopp
5) Tyler Lyons
6) Keith Butler
7) Justin Wright
If my memory serves me correctly from reading Twitter last night, Taveras will be the second-youngest player in the AFL.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
would be nice to see Hooker get action in the AFL since he hasn't really pitched this year.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Not many fictional sharecroppers from a Faulkner story do.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 31, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
He'll end up pitching in an independent league
for the Yoknapatawpha Yardbirds.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 31, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have to watch out for the bear, though.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 31, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you are now my next favorite poster.
…but, i’m still drunk, yo.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
she endured.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 1:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I had to look up the spelling though
No way I’ve read Faulkner enough to just be able to rattle off jokes about Yoknapatawpha county without looking something up on Wikipedia.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
If Shawn Marcum
can pitch successfully in the major leagues, Boone Whiting can make it to Springfield.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
yeah, except marcum doesn't practically throw the ball with his butt
by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
azru did an interesting write up on whiting three weeks
To a month ago on future redbirds. Azru is the founder and president of the “death to pitching prospects who throw slower than ninety mph” club. He came away impressed. it might help to read the thoughts of a slow-pitch skeptic.
Btw, I don’t have a link. Google it.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 11:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He and Scott Gorgen are the only two I've seen in the minors
that I’ve come away impressed with a fastball that tops out at 90mph. Both because they had a clearly plus change up to work with.
(Apologies to PJ Walters who I never liked in the minors.)
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
no, i hate boone whiting
his delivery is visually offensive to me
by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah, it's so goofy
and based on the fact that i’ve never seen a major league pitcher throw like him, i assume he can’t be successful or his arm will fall off
by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
it's never as bad as i remember it
but he has pretty bad mechanics
by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I've seen him throw in person.
Granted, it was from behind home plate, but I didn’t see anything that threw up a definite red flag. In fact, I walked away higher on Whiting than when I arrived (though, not because of his delivery).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i don't know if it's implies future injuries or not
but he leans back significantly on his delivery (which carpenter has actually been successful with) and then almost falls on his ass to the first base side
he might make it to springfield, but i wouldn’t put him on any of my prospect lists
by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
That's understandable.
Once you get outside of the top 10, I think there can be a lot of variation in ranking prospects within a system. I don’t think I’d have Whiting in my top 10, but I think he’d probably be in my top 20.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Neither of the things you're complaining about in his delivery
make him in any way more injury prone. Look at his arm action. Excellent timing, no high elbow issues. As far as falling off the mound toward first base, half the pitchers in the big leagues used to land that way. The only reason they don’t now is because of the misguided emphasis on good fieldiing position at the end of the delivery.
Boone Whiting may not amount to anything, but I would be willing to bet very significant things it won’t because of his delivery you seem to dislike so much.
Or die trying.
by the red baron on Aug 31, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree with your mechanics assessment.
And I hate a lot of pitchers’ mechanics, like Boggs, Ottavino, etc. (though I primarily hate those two because watching them pitch makes me realize that they’ll never have good command/control)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 31, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Terry Pendelton once won an MVP using only his butt.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 31, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Disagree
Finally caught Whiting live late in the season…his mechanics might feel a little funky but his timing is not that bad. I don’t think he is a major injury risk.
His success is based on fastball movement and his change up. He appears to throw a pair of fastballs. First one is probably a sinker of some sort that has some decent arm side run. The second has a cut on it that pulls it glove side. These pitches come out of the hand looking the same but end up on opposite sides of the plate. Pair that with his plus change up and he gets a ton outs using just this sequence.
For him to make it past AA to the show he has to develop a better breaking ball. Currently I think he is throwing a slider but because he doesnt really have a ton of velocity it kinda gets loopy. Personally I think that his cut fastball performs a similar function. Considering the control he has of all of his other pitches I wouldnt mind seeing him develop more of a big bending curve ball that might be a little tougher to throw for strikes but will get him a few more swings and misses at a higher level.
by BigJawnMize on Aug 31, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
So what happens to Matt Adams if we resign pujols?
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
by beer me on Aug 31, 2011 11:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
we trade him to the rays for hak-ju lee.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 11:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he becomes our new centerfielder.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
anyone can play center.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Anyone can play anywhere except at catcher on a TLR team.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Stavinoha played a third of an inning at C
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter
fuck it
anyone can play anywhere.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
i do not remember that
and holy shit
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Except Theriot.
ONLY shortstop.
"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan
by flipthebird15 on Aug 31, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
even allen craig
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
He can’t go up just one level anymore after skipping Palm Beach. It’s either St. Louis or DFA.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
This new CBA is weird.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 31, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
any word on when shelby is going to pitch next?
it’s hard to plan a roadtrip if you don’t know when it’s happening
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
he last pitched the 28th
so in 2-3 days would be my guess.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Twitter says:
ShelbyMiller19 Shelby C Miller
Let’s get a win tonight. Throwing Friday!
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter
well shit, i guess it's next year then
getting yourself suspended messed up my plans, shelby, damn
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Top 8
It is not too much of a stretch to think the Top 8 on this list could be seen in some Top 100 overall prospect list.
Rosenthal is probably the least likely to make the top 100 out of the group IMO.
and that’s just amazes me.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
The top 3
I think what happens is that you see the top 3 on every list…they are easily top 50 level pospects. Beyond that the ceiling emphasized list will have Jenkins on it. The polish/performance type list will have a combination on Cox, Wong, and Adams. I would not be shocked to see Rosenthal sneek onto someones list in the 90s. At a minimum 4 of these guys will end up on top 100 lists and we probably max out at 6, although the 6 will change from list to list.
I think that's because
few outside of the organization truly see him as a starting pitcher.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
amidoinitrite?
god tier:
Shelby Miller
Oscar Taveras
Carlos Martinez
Kolten Wong
meh tier:
Joe Kelly
Jordan Swagerty
Maikel Cleto
shit tier:
Pete Kozma
DFA Corey Patterson
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
i'd probably put wong on the good going to make it tier.
solid, but nothing potentially god-like there.
FIRE TLR
by Oedipa Maas on Aug 31, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So.
Ryan Theriot turned up to a batting practice session a couple of weeks back at Busch Stadium, wearing a rucksack..
The security guard stopped him and said “WOAH, where do you think you’re going with that rucksack? What do you have in it?”
Theriot looked confused and replied “I’ve brought a machete, a gun and a hand grenade”
To which the security guard calmly replied “Ah, that’s OK then, go on in.. For a minute there, I thought you’d brought your fucking baseball bat”.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.5, Boog = 2.2 as of Aug 30
Bilingual Twitter
by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2011 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
if anyone has time to kill and wants to see some pictures from cards-cubs i took at wrigley on the 19th
here
thanks tomsteele for the tip about the team bus
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
there was a game where they mentioned something personal with Prinzi
he had a kid, I think?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i don't know
he’s a robot as far as i’m concerned
should have seen him work carp and westy
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
it's nice that Mac has cute kids every time he wears a cardinals uni.
someone can calculate a year for the triplets now…
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
that kid has the molina bone structure I see
that pic of Kyle Lohse with Carp just makes me think of that commercial “are we BFF now”
Jaime needs to chill.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I love the depth in our system when it's possible to
Forget about a 100 MPH pitcher throwing in AAA, who would probably be in the top 5 of a lot of systems.
I find myself forgetting about cleto too.
Speaking of whom, anybody know if there’s a planned announcement of the 40-man moves today? Or will we find out tomorrow?
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 1:25 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
September Roster Expansion
I got the impression that Dickson was the first of the roster expansionites and that the remainder would come up after the end of the Memphis season on September 5.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Thats what the Cards site says...
dickson and cruz only, until Memphis’ season is finished.
by mick311 on Aug 31, 2011 2:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
tejada and rowand DFA'd
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 1:44 PM EDT reply actions
lol rowand is due $12M next year.
have fun with that, giants.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
you KNOW tony just called mo with an idea for
Our 2012 ss.
"the less I think of it, the more certain I am." beckett
by tom s. on Aug 31, 2011 1:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he's calling about aaron miles' availability.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah fuck
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 31, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't be surprised if we signed Rowand, either.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
strange, it's like all our options disappeared.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Westbrook vs Wolf tonight
World War!
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 1:51 PM EDT reply actions
can westy please just have one start where he goes like 8 IP with 1 ER
and 19/24 outs he gets are on groundballs. the other five being strikeouts.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think westbrook is having an off year and wolf isn't as good as his prior performance
maybe they’ll go all switcheroo
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
THE FANSHOT POLICE ARE HERE
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
AND TAG IT PROPERLY
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
wtf, you guys.
I’m saying it’s good enough for a fanshot, so it won’t be buried in comments.
whiners spoiling my compliments, geez.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
we're giving you trouble.
take a chill pill.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
THE COMMENT POLICE ARE HERE
AND THEY’VE BROUGHT THEIR PET VELOCIRAPTORS!
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I love how LaRussa's jeans and sneakers are visable.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
If anybody tells you Mike Stanton doesn't have 80 power
You show them this
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
...
Or this
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Man HTO is a buzzkill
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
He's just uber talented.
He’s only 21. Reminds me of Miguel Cabrera.
On the twitters
by creativereason on Aug 31, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
jesus.
gotta love the marlins broadcasters, btw.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Reminds me of Ryan Howard
When he used to hit homers the opposite way.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
you mean when he was winning illegitimate MVP's?
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
he hit one at busch this year
that bounced off the railing in section 271. a little more towards center and he might have taken out a letter in big mac land. (i was sitting in section 270 when this happened.)
i could do that
put me in coach
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 31, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the direction, but not at 87 mph.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
In fairness to the second baseman...
he couldn’t wait to get the umpire’s call. He had to throw home in case Altuve was called safe.
DFA Patterson!!!
oh, you have a point there
I guess it’s just TOOTBLAN on the runner on 2nd base. Still, haha
by hr on Aug 31, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...
it’s really just a Lastro fail. the pirates ran that play perfectly.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
is that the hot pirates reporter you guys were talking about when we were playing them?
her?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
thats carmela soprano
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 31, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying she's not attractive
but I hope she’s not know around Pittsburgh as the “hot pirates reporter”.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Goldstein today on Matt Adams as a Pujols Replacement
While the system is not known for its power hitters, one name generating significant buzz this year is 23-year-old Matt Adams, who has hit .307/.365/.578 at Double-A Springfield with 31 home runs in 110 games.
A massive presence who is closer to 300 pounds than 200, Adams draws physical comparisons to Jason Giambi, and there is no questioning his power or ability to hit, as his strikeout rate (86 K’s in 493 PAs) is quite low for a power hitter.
When I read this,
A massive presence who is closer to 300 pounds than 200
I thought, “Well, duh.” Then I saw that Adams is listed as weighing 230 pounds. I haven’t seen Adams in person this season, but 230 pounds seems a bit low, doesn’t it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So Matt Adams doesn't walk much, doesn't strike out much, is a contact hitter, and has power
He’s basically a fat 1B version of Vlad, right?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I always think of Vlad when I see Adams's slash line.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah I could buy that
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Actually, it looks like he's lost some weight since last year. So... 260!
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
how tall is he?
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
que?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Our first baseman, Albert Pujols.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 31, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You aren't helping.
Shouldn’t you be inhaling some toxic cloud now, anyway?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Aug 31, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I read that on twitter
I have no idea what it’s referring to.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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he wore a really low-cut dress to the party and was hanging all over joe strauss all night
but when strauss tried to seal the deal he claimed he had some kind of headache.
by DanUpBaby on Aug 31, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
he's also not into whispering
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i think he was going to give it away, but then remembered it was only 2 outs
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 31, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
but in reality if he did pump fake him i think its hilarious
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 31, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
he sounded sorry about it later
saying he thought about going back to the guy to give him a ball but was afraid the guy was too mad
I half expected to see today that Albert somehow found out who the guy was and sent him some swag.
OTOH, if that was just the 2nd out (I missed that part of the game) I don’t think he’s supposed to toss the ball into the stands, if a runner was on, he’d get a base, wouldn’t he?
by ArkansasTravs on Aug 31, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
furcal 6
craig 8
pujols 3
holliday 7
freese 5
berkman 9
molina 2
theriot 4
westbrook 1
let’s throw berkman around!
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 4:24 PM EDT reply actions
game will be over by midnight.
he can still play tonight and THEN be traded.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
Do you really think we can get appropriate value for him?
Also, I believe the PD article states that the told Mo he would not re-sign with the Cards if he is traded.
I’m happy they are holding on to him. If he doesn’t re-sign, we get draft pick compensation.
Basically any value is appropriate value for him
What good does any production from him the rest of the year do us? We’re not going to make the playoffs, so why not trade him a prospect the team really likes?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Because the Rangers were not likely willing to give up the equivalent of a 1st Round pick
And as I said, Berk said he wouldn’t come back if traded.
How do you know what other teams are willing to give up?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
You think we could have got compensation for his value for the rest of his year plus the draft pick compensation?
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
How can you say that "any value" is appropriate?
A C prospect is appropriate value, when the Cards will get draft pick compensation if they fail to re-sign him?
There's probably something to be said for treating Berkman well...
or at least not doing something he hates so others like him will agree to play for us (Walker, Smoltz, Furcal, etc…)
DFA Patterson!!!
by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So
If the Cards hold onto him and offer him arbitration they are entitled to draft pick compensation or to re-sign him. If they trade him they get prospect[s] in return and no Berkman. I think we want Berk back for 2012 and highly doubt that the Rangers were going to give a package of prospects that would be better than what the Cards would be able to do with the draft picks.
As Larry stated today:
Retaining Berkman makes a lot of sense, as he provides value on the field, in the clubhouse, and as cover in case Pujols walks. He has said he wants to return. The fans like him. The manager likes him. Seems like a no-brainer.
If you trade him, he won’t be back in 2012.
Big Deal
We need to get younger and smarter with how we position players. Berk isn’t a right fielder. I’ll take Pujols or Berkman but not both. We are getting sloppy with our defense. This season illustrates the point that you cannot win shit by sacrificing defense. You have to find a balance.
If he walks
we get first round talent in the draft, and keeping him gives us Albert insurance. I think this is easily the best way to go unless we were blown away by an offer. Which apparently we havent been.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
getting rid of berkman will make us younger
But it won’t make us smarter. A 4 War player is a 4 WAR player regardless of age. The issue with oldness is when the old people are bad at baseball. Theriot, Skippy, Patterson, Rhodes, Miller, Franklin, etc…
Grit != flat out sucking.
my issue
is that there is no way we would get anywhere near 1st round pick and comp pick level talent back in a trade.
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 31, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
If they are desperate
they could do desperate things. Two (TWO!) of their top ten prospects are shortstops. I’m just saying Lance Berkman is great and all but that could address a need and get younger at the same time.
Well... yeah.
That’s pretty well established at this point.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you know the prospect we would get will
be better than what we would get with the draft compensation.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
I hate to see what the season would have been without Berk's bat
I’ll take poor defense from RF if we are getting that kind of offense. I fully agree that we need to improve the defense as SS and 2b. But I think the chance of getting that talent is much better with the compensatory picks than with anything the Rangers were likely to give up for 4 weeks of Berk.
Allen Craig: One Time Starting Center Fielder of the Future For A Little While
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
so, the tlr reasoning is...
looks at team roster, sees very very promising young hitter that is just coming off the DL with a broken kneecap. obviously he should start in the position where he needs to run around the most… and forget that not very good throwing arm, that doesn’t matter (only matters at third base though, tlr clause 9b).
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Cards' magic number down to 37...
DFA Patterson!!!
by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2011 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
that's actually kind of funny
rasmus — DL
miller — released > signed by red sox demoted back to minors
walters -
tallet — DFA
by hr on Aug 31, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
In over 45 years of attending
Quad-City Angels/Cubs/River Bandits games, I feel confident in saying that Oscar Taveras is the best hitting prospect I’ve seen. Even his outs are hit hard. He is adept at going the other way if necessary, and has shown occasional power. He is raw in some ways defensively (had trouble the other night going back on a ball that landed on the warning track). But the fact is he can rake, you just don’t come into the Midwest League and tear it up like that at 19 years old. I can’t wait to see what he does in Arizona this fall.
What did you think of young Tony Rasmus back in the day?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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Just got back
tried to forget the Swing! Anc Colby was OK, had a friend who served him beer at the bowling alley all the time, (he was 18), Colby like pitchers……the beer kind….
I meant Tony Rasmus in the 70s or 80s
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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But, did you attend any Swing games?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I hated that name so much.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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I'd rather it be the QC Cardinals if anything.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I can't stop watching this video
of Jayson Werth botching/lying down a ball, pointing to home plate, and then Rick Ankiel throws a missile out of no where. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17428153
low in the zone
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2011 7:02 PM EDT reply actions
Jackson
What I think we can assume is that Jackson’s eleven home runs this season are probably at the higher end of what we can expect to see from him. The 28% line drive rate at Palm Beach last year, and the 21% in Double A this year, though, well, that’s not going to be nearly as volatile.
I will say this: Jackson was a much more attractive prospect to me last year, when he posted a 13.5% walk rate at Quad Cities, as opposed to his 7.5% this year. Walk rates do tend to drop some as a player moves up the ladder, but not usually in such a dramatic fashion. What it means I’m not sure, but getting that number back up closer to 2010 levels than those from 2011 would make a world of difference in how confident I am in Ryan Jackson’s bat.
My optimistic thoughts about this are that Jackson saw a ton of success swinging the bat and hitting the ball at Hammons Field this year, which led him to go after more pitches to continue his hot hitting. That is why he walked less. Whether that is true or not is a completely different question…but, like I said, optimistically that’s what I see in the numbers.
we bought benayoun and arteta! we can pass again!!
Seriously though, where do you think the cardinals farm system ranks? Top 10? Top 5?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/28/2011)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 31, 2011 7:43 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions

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