The St. Louis Cardinals' identity problem
by DanUpBaby on Aug 25, 2011 8:01 AM EDT
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When you've invested no hope in the outcome of the game or the season, watching Gerald Laird hit a two-run homer can be the most depressing thing in baseball. There are certain things I'm still rooting for, things that make it worthwhile to watch the Cardinals play baseball—I'd like to see Albert Pujols lead the NL in home runs, and Jaime Garcia pull things back together, and Chris Carpenter go over .500, and Tyler Greene, uh, play. If someone out there's glad that Skip Schumaker went 4-4 and pushed his average over .300, well, I won't begrudge them that.
But Gerald Laird hitting a home run to push the win expectancy from 0.7% to 1.6%—you have to have a better relationship with this team than we have to appreciate something like that. Right now this just isn't a fun team to watch when Skip Schumaker isn't hitting the mid-nineties with his fastball. All the weight of being an Important Franchise with tradition and Hall of Famers crawling all over it has crushed its spindly, gawky legs.
Watching Albert Pujols play baseball, even when it's at its most fun and he's being ridiculous for a winning team, feels a little like a responsibility. You're watching to make sure he continues to be Albert Pujols, maintains the streaks, stays on the player-of-his-generation pace. When the Cardinals are losing and he's not being especially ridiculous every home run isn't exciting so much as it is a relief. He's leading the NL again—now I can exhale.
Tony La Russa, too—when he's a genius and Skip Schumaker's a useful second baseman and the pitcher, who is some cast-off onto which Dave Duncan has retrofitted a malfunctioning Iron Mike arm, hits eighth, there's still the matter of his teams' weird intensity and paranoia to deal with. When you just have the paranoia and intensity it's not a trade-off a lot of people want to make.
I'm not saying the Cardinals have to make changes in the offseason because it's not as fun to watch as some underdoggy Joe Maddon club, only that that combination of minimum-requirements competence and strangled, airless atmosphere is toxic to a fanbase and, presumably, a team. These guys need to get better, whether they get more fun or not.
The other option is to keep pitching Skip Schumaker, because I really enjoyed that. Give me novelty (I wonder how hard he could throw if the Nationals put him in to pitch in a blowout, you know, just for laughs, lol, no big deal), or a terrible division, or else a team that turns that harsh competitiveness into a winning streak of its own and runs away with the Central. That's how I enjoyed 2007, 2006, and 2004-05 and 09, respectively; this team just doesn't have one of those angles.
For your daythread enjoyment: I'm excited to see the Cardinals still talking Marc Rzepczynski up as a future starting pitcher, although the lack of a clear timeline has me more than a little worried. One of Lance Lynn or Rzepczynski seems like a reasonable choice to replace Edwin Jackson in the offseason, and the both of them together give the team a nice way to avoid rushing Shelby Miller while still building for the future.
What does the rotation look like in 2012, if John Mozeliak, shortly after declaring himself to be progressing nicely, is committed to a home for the incessantly second-guessed and you're given the chance to replace him at GM? Your decisions: To pick up Chris Carpenter's option ($15 million less a $1 million buyout) or not? To plug in which Young Pitchers? To do what, exactly, with Kyle Lohse and Jake Westbrook?
That aside, this is a team that needs to upgrade somewhere, and I'm not sure the difference between Kyle McClellan and Edwin Jackson's performance this year and Rzeplynnski in 2012 is big enough to count. The more you look at it, the harder it is to see them getting significantly better anywhere except shortstop, where Theriot and Furcal have given the team an 87 sOPS+ and a solid win below average on defense to work with.
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Good news....
(1) More time to negotiate with Albert/Lance/Chris/Yadi
(2) Maybe someone will claim Westbrook or Lohse on waivers and we can pay them a million bucks to go away (e.g. to cancel their no trade)?
(3) Check to see if Tyler Greene can play?
(4) In the winter, I am always happy to watch baseball even if unimportant, so maybe I can convince myself of that in September?
(5) Eduardo Sanchez comeback!!!
(6) We won’t be paying anything (or at least as much) to Theriot/Franklin/Miller/Batista/Tallet and other roster filler next year!
(7) Jon Jay can prove he is legit (or not)
(8) Skip can prove he is average at 2B (or not)
(9) Freese can drive up his trade value!
by Lawless on Aug 25, 2011 8:40 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
dats true.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
Ah, but
my experience with TLR-led teams is that there always will be roster filler.
However, I will attempt to join DanUp and be optimistic.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 25, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Like Taco Bell's meat
There will always be filler.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions
it's exactly like taco bell
it’s mostly filler
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 77
Oh NOES, Skip
The inverted W (or regular M)!
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 9:02 AM EDT reply actions
but what a DAR?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 25, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
The good news...
the Redbirds have moved a half game closer to the 15th pick in next years draft. We trailed the Reds by 3.5 games going in to yesterday’s games, the Reds are now tied with the White Sox 3 games “ahead” of the BOB!!
<img src=“”http://s1190.photobucket.com/albums/z448/bubnbrat/?action=view¤t=Untitled.png" target="_blank">
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When do pitchers and catchers report?
Like I said yesterday
It’s not “if” we get a protected pick, it’s “when”.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Do you keep a spreadsheet that tracks draft order?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
No...just put it together this morning.
takes about 3 minutes.
When do pitchers and catchers report?
by cardzfanbub on Aug 25, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Somewhat depressing and marginally useful stats:
Tyler Greene still leads the team in SB with 9.
Kyle Lohse and Jaime Garcia have the same ERA.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 9:35 AM EDT reply actions
Tyler Greene also has a 100% success rate for stealing bases.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
So does Allen Craig.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
92.8 mph, i think.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
he also hinted that he wasn't trying to throw heat
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 77
Skip Schumaker is an exciting pitching prospect for the St. Louis Cardinals
(All stats courtesy of Fangraphs)
Skip Schumaker (RHP) made his major league debut recently for the St. Louis Cardinals. Schumaker’s arsenal is limited at this point but shows some potential. His fastball will not blow away many hitters, but sits comfortably above 90 (average FB at 91). Schumaker also throws a change up that averages 82.8 mph.
Schumaker so far profiles as an extreme strikeout/walk/flyball pitcher. So far he is putting up an absolutely tremendous K/9 of 18 (yes, you read that correctly). Unlike many of Dave Duncan’s students in St. Louis, he is an extreme flyball pitcher with a FB% of 100. It will be interesting to see how his anti-groundball tendencies fit into the Cardinals’ strategy. We also should note that his very high walk rate (BB/9 at 9.0) is alarming; while his K/BB does barely get over the nice threshold of 2.0, he will have to work on his control to be an effective pitcher in the majors. His HR/9 is also quite high (9.0) but that can be chalked up to GOB issues currently.
Schumaker has a very high ERA from his work in the majors so far (18.00) but don’t be fooled by that just yet, as his FIP is a full three runs lower than his ERA, while his tERA sits almost five runs lower. So Schumaker has been somewhat the victim of luck. His xFIP sits in the “adequate” range, at 4.45. SIERA also likes his performance thus far, pegging him at a cool 3.52.
Schumaker is an unusual player, as he is actually a converted second baseman. While he stunk at second base and it was only a matter of time before the Cardinals pulled the plug on him, it is good to see him show potential in his new role as relief pitcher.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 25, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 18 recs
Bizzarro World
Inverted W (in bizarro world it’s an M!), and now reverse Ankielism.
by The Gottfather on Aug 26, 2011 9:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nick Stavinoah has 100 RBI for AAA Memphis.
and he has 0 for the St Louis this year… nice.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Aug 25, 2011 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
YET
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 77
sounds like he is a "professional pinch hitter"
that can blast homeruns off 600-save closers from one knee!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
If we had to choose between letting go Albert, Yadi, Lance or Carpenter
guess it would have to be Lance?
For some reason...
I thought Lynn when I read Lance, and was like WTF???
Yadi doesn’t belong here…his option is an easy yes. For the other three It all depends on the money…
Over/Under (If under…resign/if over…C-ya)
Albert 6yrs/$150M
Carp 2yr/$20M
Berk 2yr/$22M
Prolly only one of Berk or AP will be back; my money’s on AP.
When do pitchers and catchers report?
by cardzfanbub on Aug 25, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm glad that the VEB Hive Mind
has re-asserted control of the Cardinal front office:
Mozeliak said the more likely moves people will see when rosters can be expanded next Thursday would involve players who hadn’t received everyday chances to play here “just to see what they’re capable of.”
Most have been here at one point or another, including Memphis shortstop Tyler Greene, who has failed in several trials here but really hasn’t played more than a few games in succession.
Greene is hitting .338 with 14 homers in 216 at-bats at Memphis, has an on-base percentage of .425 and has stolen 15 bases in 16 attempts to go with the Cardinals’ team high of nine he stole in nine tries while he was here.
A 2005 first-round pick, Greene is 28 and the club, which is likely to have still another shortstop to open next season, needs to find out whether Greene is better than the .196-hitting, erratic-fielding player he was here earlier this year.
Mozeliak, who met with his staff Wednesday morning and then with manager Tony La Russa after Wednesday’s game, said, “I would like to see (Greene) get more of an opportunity to play, just so we can have a better idea for planning 2012.”
Shouldn’t this go on the Tumblr?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 25, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
So la russa isn’t planning to retire? Yay….
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
by beer me on Aug 25, 2011 10:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He talks about planning for next year.
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
by beer me on Aug 25, 2011 12:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mo is talking about planing next year
Mozeliak, who met with his staff Wednesday morning and then with manager Tony La Russa after Wednesday’s game, said, "I would like to see (Greene) get more of an opportunity to play, just so we can have a better idea for planning 2012."
That is Mo talking right there. He said, “i would like to see (Greene) get more of an opportunity to play, just so we can have a better idea for planning 2012” To me, that says he had a meeting with TLR saying, play tyler greene once he is up here so we can see what we have.
Grit != flat out sucking.
That last paragraph...
I’d like to see Greene play…if Tony’s okay with it. That seems to be the implication there.
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
i didnt read the gamethread,
but what was the consensus on the decision to let jamie hit with the bases loaded when he had already been tatooed?
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
not sure?
wasn’t there last night.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
So he ran it by Tony
But we didn’t get Tony’s official comment, which had to have been: “Glad to see you feel that way John, but I see that Barry Larkin is available, and gosh, we had a lot of trouble getting him out in the mid-90’s. I’d like to see what he can do in September.”
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Aug 25, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
that is tlr in a nutshell
we gave up raz for rep
he puts him behind the colossal one
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
Failure of metrics!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I do not remember 2007 as fondly as you do
Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S. '08, T.E.S.S. '09, T.E.S.S. '10, T.E.S.S. '11
I don't remember it fondly on the whole
that team was awful, and predictably awful. but rick ankiel homering in his first game back still gives me chills.
...
Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/23
by The Continental on Aug 25, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have said it a couple of times here before.
But if I was the GM, I would not pick up Carpenter’s option and use Chip as my 5th starter next year. Waino, Garcia, Westy, Loshe and Scrabble should be alright. You keep Lynn and K-Mac in the bullpen as insurance if (with this team it’s more like a ’when´) one of the starters loses an arm to frostbite or gets his brain eaten by the relatives of the Matt Holliday moth.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter
I'd rather have Lynn as the starter and Scrabble as the insurance
but whatever, that would be nit picking. Though, Carpenter has been our best pitcher this year.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I just don't think he's worth 15 million dollars.
That money might mean that one of Berkman and Albert (or both) could be gone. I’d rather have 6 years of Albert at 32 than one year of Carpenter at 37
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter
Yeah yeah yeah
Fangraphs says he’s been worth 18.1 million dollars. Shut it, don’t wanna hear it.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter
15 Mil is a lot
I’d be willing to negotiate that to to $22 Mil / 2 Years if he was.
I can picture what the Cardinals would be like without Carpenter. It looks a lot like 2007.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Carpenter is the type of pitcher that one pays $15MM for one year of production.
I have struggled with separating Carpenter from Lohse and Westbrook, too, in terms of salary, but Carpenter is certainly worth $15MM. The question is whether the organization is willing to pay Carpenter $15MM as well as other players such as Pujols, Berkman, etc.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You should think of it as $14MM for Carp's option just for accuracy's sake
there’s a $1MM buyout, so no matter what happens, $1MM is already on the books.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the team could conmfortably keep Carp, Berk, and Pujols
under the current salary level. But, of course, it means fully buying in to using homegrown players for the bench and some starting spots, and not wasting money on players like Theriot, Skip, Franklin, Miller, Batista, Tallet, etc.
Rzep and Lynn would remain in the bullpen (and would be awesome there, IMO).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I woud agree with this.
I mean, Berkman, Holliday and Jay in the OF. Freese, Greene, Craig and Albert in the IF. Molina as the C with Cruz, Descalso and some other guy in there as Bench. Carp in the rotation. But, considering the mentality of this FO, you can just predict us having some sort of craptastic, expensive OF and SS next year.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter
The other bench spot, IMO, should go to Matt Carpenter.
He’s old for AAA now, has great plate disclipline, and could play corner infield, and probably 2B if needed.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, especially because Freese will probably get injured
What are the odds Mo actually has a good offseason and we open with the season with our best players on the roster?
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
This would require a change at the managerial position.
I don’t see that happening.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
No to K-Mac.
Price + performance = DFA.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
any more thoughts about the sb nation iphone app? I'm legitimately curious
I’d try it out myself but alas, it requires 4.0, so the official Viva El Birdos Development iPhone (ie momup’s half-broken original iphone with no sim card in it) is not compatible.
test
DanUp sucks
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Aug 25, 2011 10:33 AM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
no,
you suck!
As it turns out I’ve been compelled to write a front-page post about it like the 300 other blogs on the network, so any questions, comments, and impressions are welcome there.
It's not bad. It looks slick, but not a whole lot of difference in functionality from the mobile site
Still no live commenting and still no z’ing
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
WHAT?
Still no live commenting and still no z’ing
Is there any reason why I should get it in that case?
wedgies are free. you want one?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 77
by d-dee on Aug 25, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
not really
it’s more of a SBN site feed reader with commenting ability.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
seriously
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, when I'm done commenting
I don’t want to scroll all the way down to the bottom again.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I am REALLY Hoping...
They use Skip all all nine positions in one game this year, like maybe the last game of the year. That would rock! Start off at second and close out pitching.
:=8D
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O
not in one game.
but Oquendo played all 9 positions in 1988.
btw Fan EloRater is retarded.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
so
Any clues at what the hell is wrong jaime?
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
by beer me on Aug 25, 2011 10:23 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
he hasn't pitched very well
but he’s also getting killed on balls in play (.396 babip in august) which makes a regular inefficient-young-pitcher outing far worse than it would be otherwise.
his K% is down to 14.2 and his BB% is up to 8.7% in August
His HR/9 is also up to 1.47. So it hasn’t just been babip. Though that certainly isn’t helping.
Grit != flat out sucking.
GO ASK JOHN SICKELS ABOUT CARDINALS PROSPECTS
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/8/25/2382718/all-questions-answered-thread
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
boo
no one asked about Cleto.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I think it's probably a bit too early to have an opinion on Tilson that's different from a pre-draft scouting report, don't you?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
True, I just wanted to hear more about Sickel's opinion about him.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
considering Craig has been playing CF, what would it take to pry away Rasmus from the Blue Jays?
I’m guessing one of Miller or Martinez is the starting point, since he’s young and cost-controlled. But we’d have an every day CF!
by longhornscardinals on Aug 25, 2011 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
wait, what?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 77
I know for a fact
that the Cardinals have watched Rasmus for years now. They’re very familiar with him and there has clearly been an interest in the past.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 25, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I don't think it will be that much
For his career with the Rays, he has hit
.216 / .239 /.398 / .637
For the same period of time, Jay has hit
.253 /.290 / .358 / .648
Rasmus is several years young, but Jay is under team control for longer, we may be able to trade Jay AND receive a prospect in return.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Wait, the Rays?
Did the Blue Jays trade Rasmus? Why in the world would they trade away a young, cheap, upside player like that? Especially after a small window of “struggles” that he would probably have played his way out of?
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 25, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because the Jays asked him if he was open to a trade and he responded with perceived indifference
(Of course, they asked him French Canadian, which may have played a role.)
by mojowo11 on Aug 25, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i'm sure they looked back a bit too before making the trade
since the end of April he has hit: .220 / .289 / .396 / .685.
Without that one monster month, it would be a lost year.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Then you must loooooove evilfrog
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
It appears the multiple front page posts have again confused the masses
either that, or you people are actually working today.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Irritating
From Hummel’s article:
But I don’t look at doing any additions unless it really makes sense or has impact for future years.
This is a club who wants to contend and rebuild simultaneously. As a result, they aren’t very good at either. I don’t think the front office has a vision for how to operate this team in the long term. They’re schizophrenic in their decision making and seasons like 2011 are what happen as a result.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Isn't he just saying the obvious here?
That Mo is not looking to make additions during the current waiver period unless there is some benefit for future years (like, e.g., what the Rockies did in claiming Wandy)? Clearly he’s not going to be bringing in anyone off of waivers for this year only, since there’s no hope of competing for a playoff spot.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think azru is debating
the obvious contradiction of the win-now trades and this current mentality.
2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter
the win now trades didn't work
so time, for plan-b. Which is lose now trades.
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Aug 25, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
There's not an obvious contradiction, though
The team clearly was in the pennant race at the time of the “win now” trade(s). But it didn’t work out and the Brewers ran away with the division in short order.
Now, obviously, the team should make moves based on next year – no need to make waiver claims for players “unless it really makes sense or has impact for future years,” and the team should get a look at younger players to help the team plan for next year.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
As Paulspike indicated
I’m more driving at the latter option of that or-statement. I don’t think this club knows what direction it wants to go. It still feels very much like an organization divided and I think that shows in their roster management and results on the field to some extent.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Where is the division though?
That’s really pertinent question here isn’t it? Is ownership divided? Is the GM on one side of the fence while ownership is with the other (If so, I don’t see how Mo can continue to keep his job)? Or does Bill DeWitt simply have a Jekyll/Hyde relationship going on in his head, where on Sunday he wants to win now and on Monday he wants to re-build the farm system?
If I had to guess, I’d say that ownership finds itself in a bit of a catch-22 with how to proceed: They’ve got some big ticket items on the payroll, and aging roster of impact players, but at the same time have managed to build the farm system into a top 12 system while turning out productive players from a system rated near the bottom of MLB for most of the last half decade.
On one side, you have the handshake agreement between Tony and DeWitt about “doing what it takes to compete every year” that they made in ‘96 when TLR came on board. On the other side you have Luhnow, Mo, and the player development people, along with (I’m assuming) Bill DeWitt, who see that rebuilding the farm and turning out quality cost controlled talent is the only way that the Cardinals can afford to remain competitive and make a profit given that payroll must increasingly be sequestered in the pockets of fewer players on the 25 man roster in order to keep them in St. Louis.
Like you said, we’re in the middle. However, I do think that if you build your team in a smart manner, you can compete and rebuild at the same time, especially when you don’t have the Yankees or Red Sox in your division. That means not getting into contracts of 6+ years with expensive, aging players, which we’ve not done (Holliday, Carpenter), and also means locking up cost-controlled talent cheaply (success with WW, Garcia, Yadi), not trading away valuable cost controlled assets (horrible: Rasmus, Brendan Ryan), and continuing to draft well (which, as RB pointed out yesterday, our front office has done pretty well since 2008).
I continue to think that the manager is a big part of the problem with this, because he’s no willing to think longer than a one season term at a time.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
fire TLR and Mo?
or just Mo? or just TLR? or neither?
Fire Joe Strauss.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Aug 25, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'd like to see what Mo is capable of without TLR constraints
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Aug 25, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i have a sneaky suspicion that any post-TLR moves will look striking similar to moves made thus far in his tenure.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I strongly disagree
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
like you would know anyone that knows better
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
well this is a debate in which I am always in the minority.
but, I am not convinced that TLR & Mo have dissimilar ideas as to what it takes to build a “winning” team.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I mean, I have a first hand account from someone who works high up in the organization
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
well then.
I won’t argue with that. I would like to hear that story sometime though.
Mo has made some good moves, he has made some terrible moves, I used to give him the benefit of the doubt. The Colby trade killed all faith I have in Mo.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Yeah I have been ok with Mo until the Colby trade.
Even if LaRussa forced his hand you think he could have gotten a better return form him.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
A little birdie told me
that after TLR’s smackdown of Colby to KSDK, a prior offer from another team was withdrawn.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Was that "another team" the Cardinals?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
if that's true I'm pissed off about la russa
but at the same time, I don’t understand the other team withdrawing the offer, unless you’re suggesting they tried to cheapen their end of the deal after it became clear that they weren’t competing against the cardinals for rasmus’s services anymore.
The birdie did not give me details
Just said that another team had made an offer but withdrew it after the interview.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I don't think there's any way of knowing
whether it was the interview that caused this action though. There could have been a lot of reasons for this.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I so don't remember cardball being that bad of a commenter.
Maybe I didn’t clash with him as often but there are several others that make a far more poignant reference mark for me.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
yeah, me and cardball got along pretty well
I see the similarities, but I don’t think it’s him.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
cardball wasn't an idiot
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i didn't read any of bb's comments today
other than a couple of references to his scout that gives him inside information. sounds like cardball to me
that's what I was going off of.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Go and look up some of CardsWin old fanposts
about Izturis. Talk about someone I absolutely do not miss one bit.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I have the sudden urge to want to change my avatar.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
sepia, but yeah...
my head hurts now.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Well, I just grabbed lunch with him
And I said something to the effect of “It just FEELS like Mo has so many constraints and stipulations he has to work with in order to please LaRussa”
And he just smiled wryly and said “That’s very astute of you”
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
You would think that Mo would be able to,
since he is, you know, THE FUCKING GENERAL MANAGER.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
no he is not.
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of his title, that would most likely
have to be cleared with the owner. Who could veto it.
Then it's time to have the
it’s me or him speech I think.
If you can’t do your job, which requires long term planning, because of a guy that might not be here next year or the year after, then it’s time for one of you to go.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
LaRussa is the pointman in this organization
it’s not going to change until LaRussa wants it to
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Aug 25, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
If I were him, I'd hesitate to have the "me or him"
speech when here are only 30ish job options for me in North America.
by sdrone on Aug 25, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we've had this argument before
is it better to just have a GM job, and be content with being cromulent (at best),
or should someone who has one of the most awesome jobs in the world, actually perform the job passionately?(i’m assuming you can not do the latter if one of your “subordinates” is, in fact, at least your co-GM)
Thirty job options?
Hardly. He can easily go back to player procurement and scouting for another club, he was very successful doing that prior to becoming GM, so there’s another 30+ job options.
Honestly, if a guy who should be your subordinate on the organizational ladder is consistently making it difficult for you to do your job effectively, at some point you’re going to get your ass canned anyway. Better to take a stand now so ownership understands where you’re coming from, rather than waiting for the axe and see TLR standing there smirking as it comes down on you.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
TLR is on a one year contract
With an option for next season. I don’t know exactly who holds that option, but if it’s the club’s they don’t even have to fire him.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Tlr has the option for as long as he wants it.
DeWitt has said this time and again.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just gonna try to have faith
and assume that this isn’t actually written in stone.
I have to belive that DeWitt isn’t such a terrible businessman to where this will always be the case. So yeah, DeWitt HAS to have set some limit of team ineptitude that voids this verbal agreement.
Well shit there goes that thought... Shit again.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
and then he took you back to his place
and then you woke up the next morning with a hangover, tied to the bedposts with nothing but your socks and a ballgag in your mouth, and your mom freshening up in the bathroom.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
that's a rather vivid imagination you have there.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
shut up
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah like someone who has a top job in the cards office
would tell you details about the managerial – general managerial relationship. such a load of crap.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
...Yes, i would totally make this up so people on the internet think i'm cool!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Well...
But no, I think you’re just overreaching.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you read what he said though?
Seems pretty realistic to me.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if "you're very astute"
Counts as a confirmation to Rui’s statement, that does not mean the Mo and TLR have dissimilar ideas regarding how to create a roster, which is what Sheckie’s argument was. We all know Mo has some constraints due to Tony, that doesn’t saying anything about him as a gm.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
acquiring, yes.
the opposite… not so sure.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
MO wants Greene to get a chance
little things lead me to believe Mo and TLR have some major differences in roster construction theory
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Aug 25, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think TLR asked Mo to specifically acquire Ryan Theriot?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
...I don't know?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I was just asking for opinion/speculation. I didn't figure you were on the conference call to know for a fact one way or the other.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, TLR probably said "Boog's not gonna work. Find a replacement."
We grabbed Theriot on the cheap, in hopes that he could be serviceable on defense and that he could maintain a .340-.350 OBP (Which wasn’t a lot to ask for) and then signed Punto as a backup option in case that didn’t work out (and then Punto got injured like 12 times)
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I don't think it's that simple
I mean, they have multiple meetings to discuss personnel issues as soon as the season is over and plan the offseason.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I'd say yes.
There are players that LaRussa lobbies for actively.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
LET'S SEE IF WE CAN POINTPOINT THESE PLAYERS
Gritty
Veteran-y
Played extensively in the NL Central
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
2 out of 3 ain't bad
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Really, 1 out of 3
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
and was very much worth it.
the one thing mo and larussa have gotten right the past five years.
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
that was more wainwright though, right?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Yeah, I'd give Mo more of a pass if this were the case.
He’d still be an emasculated puppet, but I’d think more of his personnel decisions.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
this.
for all intents and purposes, i’m willing to give mo somewhat of a free pass. i’m shocked that i’m in the minority.
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Free pass?
Too many poor decisions that don’t involve TLR for that:
- Drafting Pete Kozma
- Signing Kyle Lohse to his horrendous contract.
- Length of the Matt Holliday contract
- Acquiring Ryan Theriot instead of other, better options (JJ Hardy, for one)
- Getting such a piss-poor return on a valuable asset like Colby Rasmus.
He’s done a lot of things right too, but I can’t just give him a pass for those instances. Those are bad decisions, and he deserves some criticism for them.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Ryan Theriot seems like a
LaRussa’s hand up Mo’s ass making him talk, kind of move
….just saying
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Could MO honestly believe Ryan Theriot was a capable SS
I mean, one would only have to look at his stats while playing the position over his career to know that in no way should he ever be a SS
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
could TLR honestly believe that Ryan Theriot was a capable SS?
I’ve linked in the past audio of Mo stating that Ryan Theriot was the teams starting shortstop the day after the trade. I’ve also linked in the past that later that week Tony stated that Brendan Ryan had opened the door for someone to come in, and that there would be competition for the starting job. He however, would not state that Theriot was the starting shortstop.
Grit != flat out sucking.
i agree on the kozma and lohse points.
however, the matt holliday deal was not a bad move, nor will it ever be. holliday probably doesn’t sign for much less than seven years, and in two years he has already been worth $50M of his $117M contract and has five years to go. methinks we’ll get fair value on that one.
i also speculate theriot was larussa’s boy and told mo to go get ’em. and rasmus was the ultimate sell low move that was only completed because tony wanted him off the team.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, we'll probably get fair value
It’s the 7th year when he’s making $15M and possibly performing like a $7M player that worries me.
Thing is, should we be shooting for “fair” value? There didn’t seem to be a lot of other bidders for Matt Holliday, so why not tie the length to a lower AAV or give him a 5 year deal worth less but that has option years?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
fair value is looking like the baseline at this point
even if we think we “overpaid” compared to other bids (which is pretty unclear), we could still easily make out very well on the totality of the deal.
Or he could get hurt next spring, never be a 4 WAR player again
and we’re on the hook for 5 more seasons at $15M per, plus the deferred salary a decade later.
This is what I mean about length of contracts. I’m find with an increased AAV, because 2-3 years is a lot easier to predict than 6 or 7 years. The smarter teams (Boston, Tampa) specifically avoid giving these type of contracts to players who will finish them well past their prime years. I think Boston made a pretty big mistake with Carl Crawford, considering they had a player very much like Crawford on their roster already at a much cheaper cost.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
regardless of what you think we should be shooting for...
i think we can agree that in the big picture, the matt holliday deal was not a bad move. really at all.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
By this rationale, however
You could have signed him to a 4Y$80M deal and been pretty much guaranteed to get excess value without having the risk of another three years. Holliday makes less money overall, but a lot more money up front, and has the chance to get another contract after this one should he still be productive at that time.
I would prefer that teams never sign anyone for more than 5 years. It’s just to difficult to predict performance much past that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
you honestly think holliday takes 4/80?
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
that or he takes a one year deal
which would’ve been better for him since the werth and crawford contract S U C K.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
how do you know we didn't?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
just what I remember from the tone of the discussion is that Holliday was ok with taking a one year deal
if he didn’t get the deal he was wanted, and the best deal I know of is from the orioles in the 80-90M range for 4-5 years.
So, it’s debatable if he would take that contract or the one year offer if we didn’t take our offer/
/feel free to correct me, this is what I think i remember,
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
He'd probably still su ck
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
September would be much more fun if the races weren't all but decided.
I wouldn’t mind playing a role like Seattle’s this last series; I can glean satisfaction from poking holes in others’ postseason dreams.
Still not a werewolf.
Get ready for incessant talk of adding another wild card
Because it would make the season more “interesting.”
commenting from the iPhone app
Took a while to load, but it looks like my mishaps (volsncards’d) will be a thing of the past
Auto-correct is still a bitch, though
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/22/11)
114 1/3IP, 129 K, 50 BB/HBP, 53 ER, 7 HR, 3.05 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 25, 2011 1:23 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
Turn auto-correct off
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff Gordon's article on Tyler Greene got me thinking....
what is it about Tyler Greene that people don’t like so much, especially compared to other bench/role players? I’ve been on the Tyler Greene bandwagon for years now (long before the FREE TYLER GREENE movement) but there is something about him people just don’t like….
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jeff-gordon/article_b18f1770-cf1c-11e0-a887-001a4bcf6878.html
I can see not liking him compared to players who have actually played well – but why not like him compared to others like Theriot, Descalso, or even Cruz?
Here are the major league (for the Cardinals only) wOBAr’s for 2011 for the following players (some of these are obviously tiny samples):
Furcal – .326
Skip – .324
Theriot – .310
Greene – .308
Kozma – .299
Matt Carp – .293
Descalso – .288
Patterson – .266
Laird – .266
Cruz – .261
Brown – .232
Hamilton – .220
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 1:27 PM EDT reply actions
I dislike his facial hair and think he had a kinda stupid haircut
but I’d like to see him up, no doubt. I think part of it is that our revolving door of suck in the MIF over the past number of years have amplified his failures at the ML level and caused people to unfairly judge him based on SSS performance. In other words, we’re always desperately looking for an answer in the MIF, at least as of late. So when we bring someone like Greene up, everybody (unfairly) pins their hopes on him. Then he sucks at the plate for 60 PAs or so, drops a couple catchable balls, and everyone gets the indelible impression that he, too, is not the answer and never will be.
My favorite words are goodbye, and my favorite color is red
the things I don't like about Tyler Greene
1.) The way he catches balls. This may be a sample size, but it appears he snaps at balls instead of just receiving them. I believe this had lead to a few of the his errors while with the big club.
2.) His strike outs. He had routinely looked lost at the plate. This could be be a result of just not enough playing time. Or, like Stavinoha, he may just hit in AAA and not in the bigs.
What I like:
1.) other defensive skills: range, and arm.
2.) power and walk rate.
I was really hoping he would be able to wrestle the starting ss job from Theriot as the season went on. I wasn’t against sending him down given the performance he had while up. However; now that we are out of it. I see no reason to give playing times to furcal if he doesn’t fit into our future.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Don't forget speed
I love the speed on the base paths.
I also love this. A SS that can put the ball in Big Mac Land please.
Don't forget the range and arm!
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=4416237
I could watch that play 20 times.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
So why don't we play him again?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
if hes on the september roster and Mo has publicly said he wants to see him play
and he doesnt play, i think you have your answer.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
So many problems could be solved by the firing of one individual.
I’ll let you decide which one.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
hes not going to be fired. and i dont think hes leaving.
I think he wants to chase down mcgraw. And if he does leave, does Albert pout unless Oquendo is named the manager?
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Albert won't care who's managing the Cardinals...
…
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Aug 25, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont know if youre being sarcastic
but if youre not, then i disagree. Albert seems to be stronly opinionated about things and seems to want his way a lot.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he's saying that Albert won't be here to give a damn.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
ah i see it now.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
if the only way albert stays is if tony stays, i say let them both walk
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
it completely sucks that
my fandom has come to this. I have to rationalize and accept that the greatest player i will ever see and the most successful manager ive ever seen leaving the team.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm lucky in that I got to watch Whitey.
Tony may have him beat in wins but he’ll never be better in my mind. And no amount of rational analysis will change it, so don’t anybody even try.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
comparison:
LaRussa’s career winning % is .534
Herzog’s is .532
LaRussa’s teams have been perpetually loaded with sluggers.
I don’t believe Herzog ever managed a guy with 400 career homers. Also, the most home runs ever hit by a Herzog player was Jack Clark’s 35 in 1987.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps the best ever.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'll take Billy Southworth or Earl Weaver
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
both are worthy choices.
Sparky Anderson would be pretty close to the top for me as well.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree on Weaver
Not on Southworth, but that’s probably just a biased opinion.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
quit pissing on my parade!
Sorry boys, but I’m going to be a homer about this even though I do really admire the hell out of BC.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree. but i am starting to believe that la russa takes away more value than pujols adds
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
agreed
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Or at least knock 15M off the offer
And tell him if he wants him, then he’ll have to pay for him. Of course, that will never happen, but we have to have dreams.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 25, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
pretty much
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said that he would.
just merely that it would solve some of the stupid shit that we’ve had to witness for about 3-4 years now.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
fire them both
if Mo can’t be GM without being manhandled by his manager, I’m not sure he’ll do much better with someone else.
Though I guess ownership might be the problem as well, but eh…
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I'm not going to give Mo a free pass
but he has had his hands tied by Dewitt. He can’t do anything about Tony, really. I don’t envy him the position, but he took the job and probably had a good idea of what he was getting into.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Mo is in a difficult position but he is not handling it well at all.
I’m beginning to think he must be incompetent and not just tony’s victim.
Who is TLR's next victim?
I'll take a blind guess at this:
- HIs errors in the field are of the lackadaisical variety.
- He strikes out a ton, and looks bad doing it.
- He always gets benched after making a mistake, and then generally isn’t seen again for months at a time, leaving that shitty play burned in the minds of fans instead of the single, stolen base, and run scored from the previous inning.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i would like to see stats
for the percentage of a posters posts including bullet points and see where fourstick rates in this category. gotta be like 300 BP+
i heard he's a total slut.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
your friend tell you that, eh?
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
some random lady sitting next to me at the game when the cardinals were in town
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
took her word for it?
so un-lawyery of you.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Objection. Hearsay.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
"We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence!"
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
i only said i heard it, not that its true
the statement is being offered for the fact that it was said, not the truth of its contents. admissible!
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Well, she could have had direct knowledge.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
it was an excited utterance!
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Did I accidentally click my way into the special
lawyer’s chatroom of VEB?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Nah, we're talking about Tyler Greene banging some chick that IHB knows.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
doesn't IHB also know darwin barney?
IHB knows peeps
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
At my fantasy football draft,
I got into it with Cubs fans who told me that Darwin Barney was the rookie of the year because he had a .310 batting average. I responded, “And what’s his wOBA?” And they looked at me like I was speaking Chinese. Realizing I wasn’t on VEB, I quickly said, “What’s his OPS, like, .680?” and laughed at my funny joke. No one else did.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i'll say this: i don't think he ever projected as a starter, and he's having a fine season at 2b
and people in chicago love him and castro.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
He's a fine defensive player.
That 3.5% walk rate is atrocious. It feeds his .311 wOBA. He doesn’t really slug, so I don’t know how he’ll draw more walks. I think we are seeing his ceiling right now. Hopefully he comes crashing down as his BABIP falls. Like what I fear is in store for David Freese…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
why do you say "hopefully"?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
He's a Cubs player.
We root for Cubs players to fail. Obviously, your case is different.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
oh right
i guess that makes sense. but its not like he’s the star of the team or anything.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Basically,
because some friends in my fantasy football league were acting as if Barney was the surefire ROY for the NL and he’s a Cub, which would make a BABIP evening out 2012 entertaining for me come the FF draft in 2012.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So you're saying our second baseman in 2013 is going to be Darwin Barney?
Dammit!
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
You're probably underestimating what the power of a low average does for somone.
Seriously .196 is awful, however most don’t realize his OBP’s as high or higher (idk right now) than Theriot’s and even if they do they think it’s somehow less valuable because of the average.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely
St. Louis fans are very much batting average orientated. Someone can hit for average and never walk and they love him. Don’t hit for average and walk a lot, you’re worse than Hitler.
And this just isn’t fans, it’s the media too, from the broadcasters to the PD paper guys (except Goold)
VEB's into gremlin
shaggy stuck for a while.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
do pictures show up on the SBN app?
Quick, someone post one
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/22/11)
114 1/3IP, 129 K, 50 BB/HBP, 53 ER, 7 HR, 3.05 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 25, 2011 1:31 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
woohoo
They do!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 8/22/11)
114 1/3IP, 129 K, 50 BB/HBP, 53 ER, 7 HR, 3.05 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 25, 2011 1:33 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
I'm sure that Greene is very nice personally
but I have been to a couple of big league games he’s played in and he looks like a deer in the headlights out there. Lack of confidence is a big turnoff.
I can see comparing him favorably with Theriot, but his big league performances compared with Descalso or Cruz? He hasn’t shown he can carry either one of those guys’ jock straps,
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
reply fail
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
really?
I mean Descalso has a .296 wOBA with a 316 BABIP, while Greene’s is slightly worse with almost a 30 point difference in luck. And Cruz? how has Cruz proven himself to be more valuable than Greene?
It’s one thing to make an argument, it’s another to just make erroneous statements, we’re better than that here… back up your argument next time.
It’s not that I don’t like those players, it’s just I wouldn’t call either of them better than Greene.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
i don't think you can really compare Cruz to Greene anyway
one’s a short stop and ones a back up catcher.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I gave my opinion based on what I've seen. I've been watching baseball for 40 years.
You don’t like it, fine. I don’t need to explain myself to you or anyone else.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
This type of attitude
will get the piss taken out of you around here. Trust me.
Anecdotal evidence is to have no evidence unless backed up with empirical facts and analysis. Cody was pointing out that your “opinion” doesn’t really jive with the results.
For all I know, you’re Branch Rickey, but it’s hard to trust the “opinion” of someone I don’t know, regardless of how many years they’ve watched the game. My dad coached baseball for 25 years, yet doesn’t know what OPS is. So I should just trust his opinion on player evaluation based on his experience?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't know you either
so why is my opinion less valid than yours? Isn’t an “opinion” the belief of the individual? And is belief based on eyes, ears and experience invalid? Would you distrust Branch Rickey’s opinion if he couldn’t cite some sabremetric stat to back it up? Inquiring minds want to know.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
branch rickey
pioneered sabermetric stats like OPS
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know you, but I feel pretty confident that you are not Branch Rickey
And he’d have shown his work (as Stash says above)
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
by lightbulb on Aug 25, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
First, I didn't give an opinion on the matter.
Second, Cody gave you good reasons to expect Greene to be as good or better than the two players you mentioned, and you then dismissed him with your “opinion”. You cannot refute factual analysis with opinions without making your opinions sound like facts.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Because opinions, by themselves, are worthless
People only value opinions when they value the person stating it. So, if you’re simply stating your opinion without any real evidence to back it up, there’s really nothing to it without real analysis or some measure of performace.
I don't think anyone here really has a problem with you stating your opinion.
The problem is that when statistical evidence was used to help refute your opinion, you got all bent out of shape and went to the “I’m a man, I’m 40!!!” card.
It’s kinda like shouting in a hurricane — you shout once, they don’t hear you, so you just shout louder and louder, as if that’s going to make much of a difference.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Oh and all Greene has proven is he can put up big numbers in Memphis. So what.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
He has never been an everyday player here.
He got some good PT in Spring and I was pretty excited and expected him to play more this year, but then he made the team and sat on the bench the whole time. I don’t see him ever doing well here with TLR managing this team. He seems prone to silly defensive mishaps and thats the kind of thing that will earn you a spot in the doghouse with TLR. Plus, I just dont think Tony really likes him, he rarely ever plays him when he is on the team. That whole Boras DL thing last year may be a reason why.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I dont know that he will ever amount to anything,
He has never impressed me, I am just saying I dont think he will ever get the consistent PT to try and prove himself here with TLR managing.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Anybody who is or has been in the baseball business will tell you
that while numbers are just fine and dandy, there are intangibles that are the difference between being a big league player and a perpetual minor leaguer, Greene has not been able to make the transition because he lacks the confidence to do it. He is going to get another chance soon. If he can get over whatever bugaboo is in his head, he could have a chance. Otherwise, he will remain a minor leaguer.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I don't dicount the significance of intangibles
but your conclusion is entirely speculative. Why do you just dismiss out of hand that his problems simply relate to poor effectiveness in a small sample size?
My favorite words are goodbye, and my favorite color is red
I don't dismiss it out of hand.
I just know that the intangibles are a problem for Greene and more playing time is not necessarily the fix.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
How do you know this information?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
VEB philosophy discussion on epistemology, go!
My favorite words are goodbye, and my favorite color is red
40 years of watching stuff usually...
elbows… eh?
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
However... seriously...
I haven’t fallen in love with Greene yet either, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to give him a chance… it’s better to give him a ‘realisic’ shot and fail than waste his spot as a major minor leager…
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
Are you Greene's psychologist?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I don't think Colby Rasmus has a head problem.
I never did.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
valdes
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I've just been around long enough to know there is more to baseball than numbers
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
false. numbers are he only thing that matter and that is what everyone here is suggesting.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 25, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and grit.
can’t forget that…
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
I don't know what anyone is "suggesting".
I was responding to a post that appeared to rely only one numbers as a benchmark for having a credible opinion, that is all.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
What's been "suggested"
is that there’s no harm in letting Greene play the entire month of September to find out whether he can truly play at this level. We’re not going anywhere as a team this year, and we need to know what we have so we can plan 2012 accordingly.
I think you would agree that it would be better to let him play now and find out that he can’t hack it then enter in 2012 thinking he can be a part time starter only to find out that he can’t. At that point you’ve built your club around the assumption that Greene can contribute, and there are fewer contingencies.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Aug 25, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's a pretty hard stance to argue against.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
if VEP were here, he would try
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
yeah, but he's a special case.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
No he wouldn't
I think this is something we’re in total agreement about.
There’s a lot of things we agree on, it’s just that we wouldn’t argue about something we agree on now would we?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i was just kidding
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
thats all im saying
just give the guy an honest opportunity and see what happens.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
if we were actually in a pennant race
I might wouldn’t, but now, why the hell not? It’s not like he’s going to hurt us at this point.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly?
Considering who our other options are, I would almost rather stick Greene out there and see what happens.
Furcal hasn’t been anything special, and Greene could play 2B against lefties too.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
well, my point being
that if we actually were in a pennant race, we would likely be getting better play from everybody involved. And sometimes, just sometimes, it’s not smart to go throwing something new to the mix, if what you have is getting the job done. since we’re not in that position, it’s a moot point.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
that's not to say that he shouldn't come up
in Sept and play in off days, if we were in a race, just that I wouldn’t hand him the starting job for shits and giggles.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Mo has this one exactly right
Honestly, Jon Jay should play a lot too. So should Descalso at second base. They are all cheaper options than what we would have to replace them with on the open market, so let’s see the hand we have. It would go a long way towards a Pujols contract extension if these cheaper players were able to fully contribute at a bargain basement cost for the next couple of seasons.
When you start looking at 2013 and 2014, our payroll gets a little more flexible, and we should have younger, cost-controlled talent in the form of Cox, Wong, Miller, Martinez, and hopefully a few others to continue to keep payroll within a profitable boundary for ownership while it’s shouldering these superstar contracts for Albert, Holliday and most likely Wainwright as well.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Greene will be a fantastic test case
For those (like me) that have theories about how the power structure of the ballclub operates, but little to prove or disprove it.
Mo has made it clear. It’s in the best long term interests of the organization for Greene to play a lot this year. It’s not often a position like that leaks to the press with direct quotes, and maybe the fact that it did tells you something about how it was received – but that’s just more speculation.
So will it happen or not?
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 25, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly right
it’s really hard to over-value young, cheap players that can play. I really wish that they had started this in earnest about 3 years ago. But Tony would have to play along and he’s not so good at that.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I look forward to the days when xeifrank's computer simulations
are advanced enough that they—and not puny humans swinging some stupid stick—decide who wins and loses games of based ball.
My favorite words are goodbye, and my favorite color is red
Everything matters...
….but some things can be expressed through numbers, some can’t. Doesn’t mean new metrics will come along to bring things along – but remember, they’ve been waiting for that Holy Grail of Science, the Grand Unification Theory, for quite a bit. Numbers are a great tool, but they have flaws and limits too.
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O
Do you know him personally?
I’m sure what you are saying is true for some guys but how do you know thats his problem. even if that is his issue, it could also be something that he could overcome with more playing time. Didn’t Grienke have the same problem? He turned out ok.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No I don't know him personally
but I have talked to people who have some insight into him. Some people can overcome these issues and some can’t. Greene hasn’t yet.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Also,
If confidence is his problem, than TLR is doing a fucking fantastic job with him. Each time he drops a pop up, he either gets sent down or doesnt play for a week.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There is no way I would defend TLR
I can’t stand the man. This has nothing to do with him. TLR doesn’t help, but the problems are still Greene’s.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Yea, it is by no means the managers job to try
And help players reach their full potential.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And why would he? Esp when he can just complain
To the FO and get them traded for someone who has confidence and grit.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I absolutely think this is the manager's job
and TLR fails at it miserably. And he wouldn’t be any better at it with Greene. But some responsibilities are on the player and at some point the player has to deal with things that the manager can’t help him with.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I know and all im saying is if what you are
Assuming is true (Greene lacks confidence), than the way TLR has handled him so far has probably done nothing but make it worse.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I wouldn't doubt that.
But the point is, Greene can’t make it in the big leagues unless he produces and he hasn’t. Others have. Descalso has and Cruz has shown promise of doing so. If all Greene needs is a better manager then TLR needs to go (which I am highly in favor of) or he needs to be traded to another team with a more patient manager. Either way, he produces or he doesn’t play. It’s the big leagues not little league.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I'm fine with "he produces or he doesn't play," because it's a tangible benchmark
that said, it’s the big leagues, not little league, and as a result the cardinals need to exhaust every possible avenue for upgrading their team instead of allowing spotty playing time and amateur psychology to prejudice their opinion of a player so much that they decide to trade for ryan theriot.
by DanUpBaby on Aug 25, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you are saying that the Greene situation is comparable to Boog's
I would disagree. Boog did produce in the big leagues. He had a bad year at the plate because of wrist issues but he is batting at or near his career avg right now. Boog’s problem was playing on a team with some veteran players with poles up their asses AND a manager who didn’t have the patience or the inclination to deal with him properly. If Greene produced both at the plate and with the glove (which he hasn’t) and was treated like Boog then I would be right there with you.
If you want to believe that spotty playing time is the only reason Greene hasn’t produced then you are entitled to do so. I don’t.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
for me it's a mix of the spotty playing time argument
and the fact that the 300 plate appearances we have of tyler greene not producing are basically what ryan theriot did in 2010.
I'm not going to defend Theriot
except to say that I’ve met him and he’s a very friendly guy. But he is not a good baseball player.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I'm lost.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He has to be friendly
If you’re a dick and a shitty ballplayer nobody applauds your effort (grit). If you’re nice then everybody says you “play a hard nine”
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't everyone like a 'hard nine'?
:=8.
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O
some aren't built for it
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
watch your filthy mouth moocow.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
sore subject?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends, I guess
silly defensive mishaps and thats the kind of thing that will earn you a spot in the doghouse with TLR.
I’ve watched Schu do this for two years but he’s never in the doghouse.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I watched Ryan Theriot boot 4 balls in a 3 game series
and he still started on Monday.
I also watched Ryan Theriot turn in the worst defensive performance by a Cardinal SS since Gary Templeton and nary a change until July.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Theriot never flipped anybody off.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he's gotten more than like 60 PAs in one span before getting sent down again
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Yea and thats the thing,
Even though he has 300+ career PAs, they are really spread out. Like Danup was saying, I don’t ever recall him starting more than a few games in a row. Not to mention, he has been called up and sent down 423 times over the past few years.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
with the amount of days you have to wait for calling someone up after you option them down
I don’t think there is any way he can have gone up and down 423 times already.
Oh wait, injuries. Nvm.
Grit != flat out sucking.
i would call both of them better than greene
the only thing greene does better than either is run. that’s it. he swings at pitches feet off of the plate, gets to balls that no one on our 25 man can get to, then throws it into the stands, drops infield pop ups, and lets ground balls eat him up consistantly.
none of bbfanatics comments are erronous.
it’s not like he’s ryan ludwick and was largely held back by injury. tyler greene is not good. if he was he wouldn’t be 28 and in memphis
Goodnight, Sweet Prince. Colby Rasmus ~ June 7, 2005 ~ July 27, 2011
by YesWeOquendo on Aug 25, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
they're erroneous in the way that they should be proven before stating something as fact.
saying a player looks lost, or doesn’t have confidence isn’t a way to dismiss a player.If you don’t want me to argue with you with facts, then stop using your opinion as facts and back it up with something more than a feeling when there are numbers supporting my argument.
Greene’s power and walk rate are being misrepresented as well, but you probably already know that.
Side note: everyone is acting like we at the Tyler Greene fan club have unrealistic expectations for Greene. We know he’s not going to be a 6 WAR player in the future, but he’s certainly has value that isn’t being handled correctly by the FO when Theriot and others are getting consistent playing time.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
by CodyG on Aug 25, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excuse me, but I don't have to back up my opinion to you or anyone else for that matter.
I said I didn’t like what is saw when I watched Greene, I didn’t say he would never make it. I hope he does. I gave my opinion based on what I have seen him do on the field, and what a couple of scouts said to me in a one time conversation. Is it absolute fact? Hell no, but it is just as valid an opinion as yours. You can throw numbers at me till hell freezes over and I will not believe he can play in the big leagues till he shows me he can. Descalso has played better and Cruz has shown he has the potential to become at least the backup catcher of the future. Greene has shown nothing but big numbers in Memphis.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
as public relations officer I would like to say that you are indeed entitled to your opinion
However this post
Anybody who is or has been in the baseball business will tell you
that while numbers are just fine and dandy, there are intangibles that are the difference between being a big league player and a perpetual minor leaguer, Greene has not been able to make the transition because he lacks the confidence to do it. He is going to get another chance soon. If he can get over whatever bugaboo is in his head, he could have a chance. Otherwise, he will remain a minor leaguer.
seems to present a factual statement supported by “anybody who has been in the baseball business”. It reads not as an opinion, but as truth. You clarified that this was just your opinion above, I just wanted to point out how it might have been read that way.
Also, regarding Greene vs DD or Cruz…
But the point is, Greene can’t make it in the big leagues unless he produces and he hasn’t. Others have. Descalso has and Cruz has shown promise of doing so.
I dont see where you can make a case for this based on past or present performance.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Past or present performance where? In Memphis or in St, Louis?
Are you telling me that Greene has performed better in St. Louis than either Descalso or Cruz? Based on what?
I based my statement on the intangibles on a conversation I had with a couple of scouts like I said. I failed to mention that in that snippet you cited but did say so in another post. Call me old fashioned, but I am going to put more stock in what they say about him that I am in your math equations.
I know a guy who is a genius at math. He can’t hold a normal conversation and he can’t keep a job because he has no social skills. Math has not been very good to him. I prefer a little more common horse sense along with my math thank you.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
well i never brought up any math equations
but since you asked, TG has performed better than Cruz and Descalso in the minors based on math equations like BA and SLG. In the majors I dont see how Descalsos empty 260 BA is vastly superior to TG’s major league performance. Ditto Tony Cruz. Beyond this I dont know how to continue the conversation since Im not allowed to use any numbers. What then becomes the basis for judgment? Whoever looks better in baseball pants? Whoever has the most aesthetically pleasing gait?
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to get into
it but will anyway. This has been discussed ad nauseum. Apparently it is up to the eye-ball/scout guys to learn math equations to be taken seriously by some. I get it. Remember though that we are all fans of the same team. I personally don’t think if someone says that guy is clutch or not right in the head has to prove it through an equation. T Green struggles in the big leagues and doesn’t in the minors. Sometime I think we look too deep into why. Maybe he just does.
if someone doesnt like stats based analysis thats fine by me (not that they need my permission)
but if you go onto a message board (which is a device for social interaction) and make an absolute statement like
but his big league performances compared with Descalso or Cruz? He hasn’t shown he can carry either one of those guys’ jock straps,
and then follow with
I gave my opinion based on what I’ve seen. I’ve been watching baseball for 40 years.
You don’t like it, fine. I don’t need to explain myself to you or anyone else.
The conversation erodes quickly. And if youre not interested in conversation whats the point? I dont think everything has to be proven through an equation, but restricting dialogue doesnt make any sense here either.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Who is restricting anyone's dialogue?
I haven’t stopped anybody from saying anything they want. I have been having a conversation, it’s just that several people don’t like what I have to say. Okay I can live with that.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I'm not defending any statements
however folks are quick to jump into data to refute a position that some here might not know what the hell youre talking about and really don’t care to learn. They believe (rightly or wrongly) that they are a good judge of talent based nothing more than the eye. Fine they are entitled that stance. There is room enough on this board for all opinions. Hell I talk out of my ass most times because I have no idea what any advanced metrics mean and not a very good talent evaluator either. Most times I just type “Yeah what he said.” or make silly observations. I learned early that the scout view here isn’t as welcome as the metric view but that is just my opinion.
well often the scout view is anti metric
and the metric view is anti scout. Its a chicken/egg argument over who instigates more. I would say that IMO most of the posters who use metrics put thought and time into their arguments. And most of the scout posters do not. I dont recall many ‘scout’ view posts that use much evidence to support their claims. Its part of the problem with that line of thinking; everything starts with an assumption. Player X is 6’3 and 10% bodyfat and can throw from the warning track to home on one hop and can hit the ball 450 feet, therefore they will become a good player. Most metrics based analysis starts with a question to reach a conclusion. Is player X good? How can we know? We know bc of X, Y, Z. The question is answered after the anlysis is done.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I can choose a cantaloupe at the supermarket based
on its dimensions and color and mathematically calculate how much time since it has been picked so as to maximize its potential ripeness factor.
And then I get it home and open it up and it’s rotten.
Damn I hate when that happens.
Now I just squeeze it and smell it and I have better luck.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
if you want to be snide, thats your own bag of rocks to carry
I never tried to use any type of advanced metrics so your condescension isnt necessary. I was just trying to help you see where other people were coming from and its clear you have no interest in other perspectives. However, advanced metrics are becoming more widespread in baseball and they arent going away. If you want to sit back and just watch things thats fine. If you ever want to truly answer questions about the game objectively youre going to need them.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
What you said
Seriously though there is middle ground. I think Skip Schumaker is a good player based on BA. That statement isn’t wrong or anything. I didn’t do research other than look up his BA. It’s just my opinion.
Now that I said it, I’ll hear several people quote its a “hollow” BA or his BABIP is too high to be sustainable or other X,Y,Z analysis. This is great. I, OKCardsfan, appreciates the info.
We tend to run off folks who only know BA or ERA. It takes some either ignorant (me) or strong-willed folks to learn the metric side of baseball.
I think the middle ground is how we engage in the conversation. I think we are all pretty good at recognizing scout analysis and we should do better at teaching the metric way. If someone doesn’t want to learn, fine, then don’t engage further.
Again though, just my opinion.
I disagree with this
We don’t run them off. First we try to explain why batting average generally isn’t a good indicator of a player’s overall value offensively. At that point we usually get the “I’ve been watching this game for 40 fuckin’ years sonny!!! Anyone who knows anything about baseball KNOWS that good players hit for a high batting average” bullshit, at which point the piling on will begin.
Just so happens that both of those instances happened in this thread. I don’t think we should have to be kind to people who choose to be willfully ignorant of our arguments while pleading that we just listen to them “because I know what I’m talking about and how dare you disagree with my opinion. I’m entitled to it!!!”.
Yes, but we’re also entitled to point out when you’re wrong, buddy. And in this case, it’s likely that the prejudices of the OP in terms of the definition of “what a good ballplayer looks like” are informing on his opinion more than cogent, empirical analysis.
I agree that the hybrid system is best. I argue this with hardcore sabermetricians like VEP all the time. But to simply come in and tell someone who’s done some research that he’s wrong and that he can’t refute you because you’re just giving your unvarnished opinion is egotistical.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Aug 25, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He can't "show" you he can play in the big leagues.
If he dosen’t get a legitimate shot. Looks like he might get one soon.
FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!
How much time do you think he needs?
There are players on this time right now who have shown they can play in the big leagues in less time. Why is he so special?
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
team, not time.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I'd like to know who has gotten more time and proven successful?
Descalso? Not really. They have about the same amount of PAs but Descalso’s is over one year and with steady PT.
Cruz? Well he hasn’t proven anything at all actually hitting WORSE than Greene in his 69 PAs.
I can’t think of anybody else you are thinking of.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
DAMNIT
*LESS time not more time
Who has gotten less time and been more successful.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
300 hundred ABs scattered over three seasons...
…certainly isn’t enough. Especially considering that in each of those chunks of major league time he was used erratically. Hell, a month of continuous play wouldn’t be enough either but it would be a lot better than what Greene has gotten so far.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
how much value can a backup catcher even offer really? they don't PH, and they spot start once a week
if tyler greene has less value than that, it’s obvious you and me have differing opinions.
whatever, I just thought this board was better than lazily dumping your opinions on here because you want people to hear what you think.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
well 9 innings from a LOOGY
and 2 months from a RHP are apparently worth a 4.3 WAR, 24 year old CF. Value is a fickle thing…
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
but he sucked this year,
doesn’t that mean anything anymore? Or whatever kind of BS they’re spouting at the P-D
/totally kidding
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa
Is there a rule here that says my opinions aren’t welcome because CodyG doesn’t like them? If there is, then show it to me and I will leave now.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
It's more of anyone presenting their opinions as facts that is rarely well received.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
I did not present anything I said as fact.
I can’t control how someone perceives what I post.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
if you dont care about how other people perceive/respond to your post,
a message board seems like an odd place to post your thoughts. Just an observation.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say I didn't care
I said I can’t control it. If someone misperceives what I post, all I can do is correct it, which I did.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
Yes you did
When you make statements like:
Anyone who knows anything about the baseball business
that is exactly what you’re doing.
CodyG and Stash have a point: If all you have to do to refute their empirically researched information based on quantitative analysis is just say “anyone who knows anything about the baseball business”, you’re not presenting an opinion, you’re refuting their evidence with an anecdotal “truth”. That’s making your opinion into a factual statement, like it or not.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Aug 25, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cardball, is that you?
Where the hell you been man?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
This is exactly what I don't get
You say something like Greene can’t carry Descalso’s or Cruz’s jock strap….I just don’t see any evidence of this. Nothing about Descalso’s offensive periperhals or his defensive numbers says he’s better than Tyler Greene. His offense this year (putting aside the underlying stats) is just a bit better than Greene’s and it’s all luck. His defense is worse than Greene’s. Descalso consistently looks overmatched at the plate; certainly no better than Greene “looks.” even if you say Greene isn’t “confident” who cares – being “confident” sure hasn’t made Descalso play any better.
Cruz’s offense again is basically the same as Greene’s this year (thouhg Cruz has needed better luck to match Greene). And there isn’t a defensive position on the field that Cruz shoud start over Greene exceot for catcher.
The “appearance” of lacking confidence must be powerful thing. Evidently, if you look “confident” but still suck, like Descalso and Cruz, everything is great.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
I get jumped on for relying on a scout’s opinion, yet it is okay to brush off someone’s performance by calling it “luck”? How empirically based on quantitative analysis is that?
Why is is acceptable to compare apples and oranges (Memphis numbers vs. St. Louis numbers) but it is not okay to believe a scout?
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
well theres a couple of things
1. Luck shouldnt be viewed as a negative term. Its not viewed as positive or negative. Its neutral and its just accepted that it exists. Im not saying you should become a sabermetrician or believe in it, but many people on this board express views in this light and it will save you a lot of arguments if you understand the jargon.
2. Most people throughout baseball, scouts and sabermetricians would agree that MILB success translates to MLB success as a general rule.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay so now I get it.
If I like who everyone else likes it is okay to back up my opinion with “neutral” terms and generalizations such as “Most people would agree”, but if I don’t, then I must back it up up with “empirically based research based on quantitative analysis”.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
this really doesnt make any sense and I think this conversation has run its course
but neutral did not mean generalization. Luck in his post referred to a positive or negative deviation from a historically stable baseline in terms of BABIP. It is not a generalization in any way. I dont understand who you derived that.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know what this has to do with anything
other than continuing to prove the point that you are very hard headed.
I think there are people who would agree with you about Greene but certainly WOULD NOT agree with how you’re going about proving it.
I’m on the fence about Greene for a lot of reasons, but none of those reasons involve “not looking like a major league player”, “having a deer in headlights look”, “not being mentally tough”. Those are vague and generic observations that are not quantifiable or verifiable. It’s like you’re reading his horoscope or something.
You can disagree with people, and they will disagree with you. That’s ok, it happens all the time here. But the way you go about it is important. Remember that you’re on a blog that is driven by thoughtful, stat-driven analysis of the game of baseball.
If you want give your unfettered opinion with out backing it up with evidence there are places for that too…like the stltoday.com board for example.
I welcome you to read and learn at VEB. But doing what you’re doing doesn’t make the community better.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
wOBAr adjusts a player's wOBA to what an average player produces with their batted ball profile.
In 2011, Greene has a wOBAr of .308. Daniel Descalso’s is .288. This tells us that Descalso has gotten a little bit lucky and Greene a little bit unlucky. Due to his speed, Greene is the type of player one would expect to perhaps fall on the side of ledger that is a tad lucky in terms of his BABIP because he can leg out more infield hits. Descalso is not fast, so his BABIP, which is a tad lucky, is suspect.
I would also say that I’ve been hoping Descalso would break through this year and perhaps establish himself as a legitimate offensive player who could start at second base for us next season. Sadly, I’ve been disappointed. He takes many bad swings, strikes out more than his offensive profile (which, with a .352 SLG has been devoid of any power whatsoever) suggests he should. I like Descalso, but I’m worried he may be a utility player at best.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I agree
but he would be a far more useful utility player than we have had recently (Miles, Theriot etc).
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
and cheaper
not that it needs saying
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
at least he can play defense.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree 100% that is a decent defensive player.
I think his defense has evened out since a terrific start to the season. Also, having watched him play defense at second several times, I never came away overly impressed. This isn’t to say that he is bad, just that he is average or slightly above average there, in my opinion. That is certainly an upgrade from Schumaker or Theriot, but I had hoped to see him improve as the season went on at the plate. He started taking better PAs and has since tailed off. It’s been disappointing. I fear he is another player who is BA-dependent on offense, like Schumaker or Theriot, even if Descalso is the better defensive player. I don’t see him as more than a utliity man at this point in time.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i agree. and it's disappointing that we can't really project him as our second baseman.
however, it’s nice to have a utility player (read: not schumaker, theriot, or craig playing second) that can come in during the late parts of the game and play decent defense at three different positions in the infield.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Cheap utility players that can adequately defend three infield positions have value.
Don’t get me wrong. I like Daniel Descalso. I’m just saying that I had hoped he would hit more at the big league level this season and show that he is ready for an everyday starting job at second base. This would eliminate the organization re-signing Skip or Theriot to play second base (which I think is going to happen).
Descalso is hitting .257/.330/.351. This is completely and utterly replaceable. There really isn’t much of a reason to promote him from his utility man role if this is all the more he is going to hit. Low average. Low on-base percentage. No power. To me, this means he shouldn’t be a starter. But, I’m not the St. Louis manager…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He's an above average defensive third baseman
without the bat to be able to play there.
Basically, he’s the inverse of Brett Wallace.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That sounds like Polanco to me for some reason, but I wouldn't say Descalso's defense is that good.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Thing is
Polanco’s bat was actually good enough that he could have made it work at 3B in his prime. He was a .350-.360 wOBA guy for a time — that plays at 3B even if you don’t have power.
I think Descalso’s defense at 3B is probably as good, but he’s not nearly as good at 2B as Placido is/was.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
wait wait wait
wOBAr adjusts wOBA using the players batted ball profile? Holy crap! Best stat ever!
Grit != flat out sucking.
I've stopped using it a bit, because there is a secret sauce element.
Here’s their glossary definition:
This is wOBA, but with the hitter’s success on batted balls regressed toward his prior averages. League averages are used when the sample size is too small. In effeft, it’s PrOPS, but with a player’s past history used as the baseline when possible instead of the league. More details to come.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It's not really THAT secret saucy.
Regress the batted ball profile to career levels or league average depending on number of PA available, adjust for park, adjust for traditional BABIP rates on various kinds of hits. Voila!
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I suppose my problem is
not knowing when they use the player’s individual batted ball profile or league average.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Agreed
Not knowing what the sample size cutoff is can make for some dicey comparisons. Such as the one we’re doing here, with two players under 400 PA’s in the major leagues, one of whom has multiple seasons of data.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
true, but either way is better than not adjusting at all.
indeed, even if player has a ton of PAs and an “established” BABIP, you’d still regress to league average.
In any event, nothing that uses batted ball profile will be completely accurate (for lots of different reasons), but it’s a good shorthad tool, IMO.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
It’s useful for ballparking about how (un)lucky a hitter has been.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
batted ball numbers are still dumb, but yeah, i guess it's better than straight wOBA
it also adjusts for ballpark.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
well they aren't dumb
But they are pretty error riddled and probably biased. I guess it’s better than unadjusted BABIP though, and the park adjustments help with the bias.
I’m just that wOBAr really shouldn’t be taken as gospel or particuarily predictive or anything. It’s just a slightly better wOBA.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
well
it should be more predictive of future wOBA than regular wOBA though I’m not sure I’ve seen the correlations to prove it.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
What I'm saying is that your post above is what I don't get and am trying to figure out
Why is is acceptable to compare apples and oranges (Memphis numbers vs. St. Louis numbers) but it is not okay to believe a scout?
I don’t understand this point – I only used 2011 ML numbers for these players, not minors numbers, in my posts. I’m not using Greene’s Memphis numbers on purpose.
But again, let’s take “young” players like Descalso and Cruz. They both have sucked as much Green this year in the majors. Their offensive and defensive numbers show this. Watching them play, at least to me, doesn’t make them look “better” than what their numbers show. So why do people, like yourself, like them, and not like Greene? From your first post I take that it is because they “look confident” while Greene does not. Okay, that’s something I guess.
As for scouts’ comments – eh, I don’t care much one way or the other. Scouts made Greene a #1 draft pick. And Greene has better tools than the other guys. Further, I don’t trust some unnamed scouts’ view about “intangibles.” IMO, that’s code for “I don’t know why this guy doesn’t succeed.”
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As someone who reads a lot of scouting reports...
I TOTALLY agree with this:
Further, I don’t trust some unnamed scouts’ view about "intangibles." IMO, that’s code for "I don’t know why this guy doesn’t succeed."
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He has that deer in headlights look in Memphis too
That’s just his face.
That said, he hasn’t performed well enough in the short stints he’s had. Sounds like he might get one more shot, because of where we find ourselves in the standings and in middle infield. Hoping he makes the most of it. Not everybody gets the opportunity they feel they deserve. Most don’t.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 25, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i can't believe i'm more surprised Mo traded duncan now than I was when he originally did it
by molina mo problems on Aug 25, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions
That was awesome
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
holy shitballs.
Brendan Ryan … .261/.323/.342 — .665 OPS … +12 RS*
Cardinals … .253/.313/.326 — .640 OPS … minus-19 RS
A 31 run swing. Disaster trade.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 25, 2011 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I'm so glad we trade away our clubhouse malcontents/miscreants
Milwaukee may be first in athletic achievement, but the Cardinals will always be first in gentlemanly club life
But we have chemistry!
No way any of those guys would have been able to turn a DP with Ryan if they didn.t like him.
by mick311 on Aug 25, 2011 2:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
31 run swing just in defense
Another, what, 7 runs in offense?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Can we at least
say “Hey at least the Mulder trade wasn’t like that disaster Ryan trade!”
like that?
The return on the Ryan trade wasn't the issue.
Thinking Theriot could play SS to replace him was what made the whole thing so awful.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
I agree completely
And hence my objection to tiering the trades based on the returns
Still not a werewolf.
What is the y-axis label?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I also do not like to be constrained by labels. they are restricting.
like a cheap pair of briefs.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Speedos are not necessarily cheap
and they’re restricting as hell
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Head circumference...
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
by pattimagee on Aug 25, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
his eyes take up more space
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Actually doing a WAR +/- on the players traded
would be a cool graph. Someone do that so i don’t have to.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
that just fucking hurts
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but i forgot the safe word
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
tell me about it
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Do the Cardinals' numbers include pitchers?
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
goold says that's the position overall
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
brilliant
Footnote 1: The Cardinals’ minus-19 Runs Saved at shortstop is not the most costly defensive position in the National League, but it’s close. The most costly defensive positions in the NL, per Bill James Online and John Dewan’s calculations are: 1. Houston third base, minus-29. 2. Florida shortstop, minus-21. 3. Cardinals shortstop, minus-19. 4t. Chicago third base and New York second base, minus-18.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Wow, I didn't know Hanley
was that bad on defense.
The 3rd base thing surprises me, since both Freese and Descalso seem above average. Interesting.
HanRam has been injured a lot this year...
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O
That's Houston's third basemen
not ours.
by ArkansasTravs on Aug 25, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah okay
Fuck.
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Part of me is actually happy to see TLR have his way and have that way shoved right back in his face in the form of failure. Rasmus and Boog were shipped out b/c TLR didn’t like how they went about their business, and guess what? The team still ain’t gonna win the division.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it was a failure of metrics, not of TLR's roster construction.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
2011 Cardinals: A Failure in Metrics
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
well i just got back to Houston after my first trip to see the Cards in their home whites
needless to say, it didnt go as planned. And oddly enought the day game was cooler than the night game due to shade and a breezeway.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
i am so sorry
that’s not the best series the birds have ever played
Goodnight, Sweet Prince. Colby Rasmus ~ June 7, 2005 ~ July 27, 2011
by YesWeOquendo on Aug 25, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
no, no it wasnt
but it was still an enjoyable experience. I had already lowered my expectations of the outcomes since I decided we were out of the NL Central race.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
and where are the pictures?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 77
havent had time to load them on the computer.
I flew in last night at 11 and came to work at 7 this morning. Ill put them up in the next day or so. What kind of pics are preferable? I dont think I took too many of the players, bc I was focused more on the stadium. I took a bunch during the tour though.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I just wish somebody would rip Tony in the post-game interviews
But if they do that, then they get blacklisted by TLR. I’d love to see TLR manage in New York or Boston, or any other big-market city where they have reporters who aren’t afraid to question the manager.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
and now Bernie kisses TLR's ass
I’m convinced that’s why all of Bernie’s pictures have his nose slightly upturned….he’s constantly brown-nosing.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I just wish the talk radio guys had a clue about clubhouse journalism
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I like that they always put him last
so he just swoops in and delivers the correct analysis at the end.
I always imagine him drop the mic onto the ground and walk out after he finishes...
baboom!
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
he holds it out, first. then drops it.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
maybe an eyebrow raise too...
I haven’t figured out a good sign-off yet… you’ve just been borowski’d… or something good… not my forte.
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
Aggie is far too nice of a lady.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Bravo to the All-Seeing Eye of Larry Borowsky
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
2011 Cardinals
1. Trade cost-controlled player for “win-now” package
2. Don’t win now
3.??
4. Profit??
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 3:10 PM EDT reply actions
operative word is maybe
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
what in heck, sbn, i corrected that
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Goold had a photoshop on his Birdland page
that had Albert spelling out HELP ME.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
why is goold scooping our VEBly duty?
#poached
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'm sure this has been seen before, but...
Awesome/Creepy Engagement Photos
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
skip, 4
craig, 8
pujols, 5
holliday, 7
berkman, 9
freese, 5
molina, 2
furcal, 6
jackson, 1
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:05 PM EDT reply actions
Our manager needs to no longer be our manager
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
lol allen craig is playing center field regularly
let’s trade rasmus!
shit, jay isn’t doing better!
……
.
CRAIG 4 CENTER!
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
if we're going to play allen craig out of position, we should just put him at fucking second.
furcal, 6
jay, 8
pujols 5
holliday 7
berkman 9
craig 4
freese 5
molina 2
p
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
its really hard to put your mind around isnt?
what the hell is TLR doing?
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
This is really driving me crazy
I like AC as much as the next guy, but the idea that we traded Colby and now AC is playing centerfield is so crazy.
it's almost insulting...
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
come on man
we traded a cost controlled CF’er so we could replace him with a cost controlled corner OF’er. even trade.
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
heh
i haven’t seen that before. rec’d.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
You gotta admit, it's funny
and hey, Craig’s bat is in the lineup! hahahah
uh, pujols
that’s my bad.
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
we're playing the shift...no 1B.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
edwin covering first for the throw?
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
nope. no plays at first at all.
it really is genius.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
CORRECTION: pujols, 3
not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Offensively speaking I really like this lineup
I’ll stop there.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Somebody explain this to me
and as tempting as it will be to say “Because TLR” I’m actually curious:
If Allen Craig isn’t playing second base because they’re still worried about his knee….then why the hell is he playing a demanding position such as CF.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 4:31 PM EDT reply actions
There was actually a discussion about this
It involved a lack of crouching in center field.
probably something along the lines of berkman saying it's more tiring for him to play first.
crouching down on every pitch can be difficult for one if they have a bad knee(s).
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
less crouching, less side to side movement, less people sliding into his knee.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
Less walls to run into (even thought the Busch Stadium walls are properly padded, IIRC).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
OT Question for the graphic design people here
If I wanted to take a hand-drawn design (i.e. a shirt design) and turn it into a vector image to send to someone, what would be the best way to do so?
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 4:35 PM EDT reply actions
Tyler Greene is drinking a Wheach beer while listening to the Beatles on his iphone and eating Imos.
Discuss.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
regarding IMOS
is this a good pizza chain in STL? bc i must say we got one to take to the hotel after the game and it was not good. In fact it was probably the worst pizza ive ever had. No offense.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
it is a polarizing pizza.
it seems people either hate it or love it. there is little middle ground.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
polarizing - present participle of po·lar·ize (Verb)
2. Cause (something) to acquire polarity.
polarity – pōˈlaritē
1. A cardboard like, garbage taste that appeals only to hobos and streetwalkers.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's one of those things that splits the city down the middle
It’s not literally true, but people often say that you either love it or you hate it, and there’s no in between.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
It's pretty terrible.
Unless you get it with mozzarella instead of provel. Then it’s super average.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
nope.
It’s a mix of cheddar, swiss, and provolone. Essentialy white velveeta.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
I'm not entirely anti-provel (or velveta)
it works well on the Imo’s ham and cheese sandwich. Just not a fan of it on pizza.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
It looks like there are some differences between provel and velveeta
Velveeta cannot brand itself as cheese and thus calls itself a “cheese product” whereas provel is entitled to call itself cheese.
Don't get me started on the god damn cheese entitlements in this country.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 25, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i can see i completely agree with your pallette
did not like that cheese at all.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
sounds like SUPER CHEESE to me.
like if you combined Brett Favre, Roger Federer and Joe DiMaggio.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
AH HAH!
i didnt know it was provelone, but i knew it wasnt mozzarella. The cheese tasted like kraft singles to be honest. It was so salty that all i could taste was cheese and more cheese.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
All I know
is that they can’t even make the pizza in their commercials look appetizing.
My wife nearly pukes every time that commercial comes on during a game. It looks like a oily, ugly mess.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
's is great.
but yeah, it’s a total love/hate thing.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I used to hate IMOS
Because when I was in gradeschool we would have it for hot lunch, but it would be all mushy and disgusting by the time it was served.
Now as an adult, I love it….especially with the thicker crust, though all my recent pizza purchases have been from Faraci’s….they’re overpriced, but good.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
a pizza joint being overpriced?!
YOU ARE RUINING ME
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
i was being sarcastic.
every pizza place ever is overpriced. unless it’s little caesar’s.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Even they are overpriced
You’re spending $5 for something that has about $0.50 worth of ingredients in it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
well, yeah.
but that’s the market in general.
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You're paying for convenience.
Period. Pizza places didn’t really take off until the advent of delivery.
What sucks is that the advent of delivery pushed a lot of the really good pizza places (like Shakey’s) out of business because nobody went out for pizza anymore.
I can’t think of one pizza place where I live that doesn’t do 50% of it’s business via delivery.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
For me
It’s one of those thing that is tolerable when I’ve been drinking. Other than that, I don’t like Imo’s. Better than Cecil Whitakers though. For St. Louis style, there a place down the road from me called Serra’s that I go to just about every time.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 25, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
A friend of mine prank called (remember those?!) Imo's once
He did a sort of Eastern European-ish accent and said that he would not place his order until he got to speak to “Eye-mo” and order from him directly.
That probably doesn’t read as all that funny. We should have tape-recorded it (remember those?!).
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
I imagine that was a riot while it was happening.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
It was for sure
the accent was kind of like the Romanian car wash owner from Breaking Bad, I guess.
I insist on speaking with Eye-mo.
No Katie, I do not want to order his Extra Special from you, I want to order it from Eye-mo himselves. I know he is there, please put him on the line.
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
that's pretty good, now that I have context to work with.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No offense taken.
It’s nasty. Cheese tastes like nothing. Lousy toppings. Sauce tastes like nothing. Hard, dry crust.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
in case you wanted to cry this afternoon....
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44271018/ns/today-today_pets_and_animals/?GT1=43001#.Tla8DqjFKSo
/politics
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 5:28 PM EDT reply actions
i'm eating peanut butter directly from the jar.
discuss.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
a knife. its near the bottom of the jar.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
I hate that...
I actually bought one of those malt spoons to help me with this obsession.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
This peanut butter thread just keeps getting better.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
thats a brilliant idea
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
What can I say, I hate wasted peanut butter.
Do you use a small rubber spatula to scrape the sides of the jar as well? Or is this my mild OCD taking over?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
can't say that I ever went that far
but I do have a malt spoon
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that the same as an iced tea spoon?
I don’t think I’ve heard of a malt spoon.
Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/23
by The Continental on Aug 25, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
probably
It’s one of those really long handled spoons that’s good for getting to the bottom of a tall glass without getting your fingers in it
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Spatula is the best way to finsh off the jar.
Especially now that we’re washing our trash. /recycling
Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/23
by The Continental on Aug 25, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you doing that?
The peanut oil would help the plastic melt down faster, saving the recycling company energy.
There’s really no need to wash plastic for recycling purposes — it just keeps your recycling bin from smelling like your trash bin…
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That's honestly the main reason I do it
To make smells in my house less bad.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
mmm
i used to have a jar of that in my office
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
i can say that nutella on an eggo waffle is pretty damn good.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
what the hell is that
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Wow, once I figured out what this was I really really started wanting some
I’ve hard Biscoff cookies on airplanes lots of times. They are awesome and I can’t really put my finger on why. I am confident that these cookies would taste rather delicious in a spreadable form.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
you can even use it as a dip for ... BISCOFF COOKIES!
(or yogurt pretzels, which is my current terrible habit)
picture from my grocery store:
i am a fan of the double biscoff
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That sounds like it should be a hockey or wrestling maneuver.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
FUCK YES
I once went through an entire jar of that in one day.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aren't you at work?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah, they let us eat here. sometimes they even let us go to the bathroom.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
I now have a vision of a partner (hopefully the one whose name is first in the firm name)
coming into your office as you are taking a spoonful of peanut butter and eating it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Damn.
I’m still trapped in VEB’s /lawyer room. Someone help me!
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
you'll be billed for that help.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I think I've made more lawyerly comments today than I have all year.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the recruitment lady did come in
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Are you depressed or is Aunt Flo visiting?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
BAN THE ROBIT!
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
neither. i like peanut butter is all!
i discovered that real peanut butter is so freaking good. i can’t go back to skippy or jif.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
and i missed lunch.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
the jif stuff is just peanut butter with a huge helping of oil and sugar added.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
yeah. i'm digging the all-natural, just peanut butter. no sugar added.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
This is my favorite.
I still eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with the non-sugar and oil peanut butter. Delicious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
which is why there's a maury povich show
that parades 80lbs 2 year olds around in a diaper.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also because they aren't sure who the father of said 80lbs tot is.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"She's seducing him with that chicken tetrazinni!"
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
peanut butter was a product of the depression
that’s why it and enriched white bread became a go-to childhood item, because childhood nutrition on a tight budget was otherwise a reach
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Actually
according to American Dad
the true inventor of peanut butter was Mary Todd Lincoln, President Lincoln’s wife, as a means of keeping away evil spirits. Shortly before the end of the Civil War, when “the North’s victory over the South was imminent”, Lincoln feared that the South could only be forced into abolishing slavery, and never of their own accord, and this would lead to further conflict. He then realized that the butter would be an ideal method of making the Southerners accept blacks as their equals – by introducing the delicious snack to the South and crediting the invention to a black person. However, before the plan could be put into action, John Wilkes Booth, who “despised legume racial harmony”, got wind of the plan and shot Lincoln.
31 years later, the plan was revived by President Grover Cleveland. Cleveland heard of a young black botanist, Carver, who had invented over 300 uses for peanuts, but amazingly, “mashing them up and eating them wasn’t one of them”. Cleveland constructed an ingenious plan to allow Carver to receive credit by leaving a jar of peanut butter to an unknowing Carver, who received the credit for the invention. Stan further explained that there was a legendary “Jar of Proof” that had evidence proving that Carver had not invented it, but an organization called the Illuminuti, an obvious parody of the Illuminati, was dedicated to finding the Jar and destroy it, fearing that the truth would cause the country to descend back to racism and hatred
One of my all-time favorite AD episodes
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
heh
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
has anyone pointed out that schumaker
has an inverted W thing going on in that picture?
Grit != flat out sucking.
i am sad that i missed him pitch
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
it was the best thing about the actual games that i went to.
the crowd that stayed really enjoyed it.
PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!! update - .341/.430/.621!!!!
Public Relations Officer of the Tyler Greene Fan Club.
by Stash Musial on Aug 25, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
it was intense.
you should be sad.
that first K was really epic.
and he even apologized for an inside pitch, which was so very Skippy.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i wonder if there is video somewhere or if i will just have to watch the archived game
what inning was it?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Um, the caption?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
is there any food group VEB has not argued about?
I think we should pace ourselves.
it’s going to be a long winter.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Insects?
Some people swear by chocolate-covered grasshoppers, other love fried beetles, I on the other hand would rather eat dirt.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 25, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
no, this is the deep fried butter thread
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
well let's see, tomorrow I'll mention that they put meat in salads, and then clank will try to kill me.
pencil it in
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Does anyone know how much TLR makes in salary?
One benefit of him leaving would be that we’d potentially have more money to sign players, as his replacement would almost certainly make quite a bit less money.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 6:26 PM EDT reply actions
like $4M or something in the millions.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Okay. Seems like we could save about $3MM by shit-canning him.
Good enough for me.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 25, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
cot's
Tony La Russa Manager
1 year (2011), plus 2012 mutual option
1 year (2011), plus 2012 mutual option
signed extension with St. Louis 10/19/10
1 year (2010)
signed extension with St. Louis 10/26/09
2 years/$8.5M (2008-09)
signed extension with St. Louis paying more than $4M annually 10/22/07
3 years/about $8.25M (2005-07)
signed extension with St. Louis 2/05
07:$2.8M
2 years/about $4M (2002-03), plus $2M 2004 club option
2 years (2000-01)
signed extension with St. Louis 10/99
2 years/$3M (1996-97), plus 1998 club option
hired by St. Louis 10/95
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
wow...so the cards have an option to decline.
So they technically can “fire” him
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
it doesnt say what hes making this year
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
all those trying to find out "disappeared"
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'll be surly to the media, overreact to small samples, and be irrational for 1/40th his salary.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 25, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have been involved in several conversations today
And this is a generalized response which is why it is going here.
I am fairly new here and today has been an education (and a fun one). It appears to me that the consensus theme is that if it can’t be figured out with a math equation or a computer program it is either not worthy of consideration or irrelevant. Okay.
I suspect that I am considerably older than the majority of posters here. Some say with age comes wisdom, but that is not necessarily true. What does come with age is experience. And what experience teaches you is that life is complicated and sometimes you just have to wing it. The answers are not easily ascertainable by empirical analysis. Yes, that sounds condescending because it is. But that doesn’t make it less true. So all I can safely say without being anymore condescending is good luck. With all the good will at my disposal.
P.S. I am not leaving permanently, I just have dinner with a friend tonight and I have to get off here. I will check back later to see all the posts demonizing me. One nice thing about being old is that you have been called every name in the book and still live. :)
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by bbfanatic on Aug 25, 2011 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
P.S.S Ignoring me will be fine too. :)
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
we keep telling the math-slanting posters that there's a lack of basic courtesy, and that it does have an effect on lurkers and newbies.
they keep saying it’s not their lookout.
VEB is a rather large blog (and yes, there are much older posters here). the numbers are decimated this week for obvious reasons. like drinking.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Oh I am not turned off at all
I have a very thick skin and I am a shit disturber extraordinaire. I like the passion people exude on here, whether I agree with it or not. Some people just have their life and beliefs all ordered and someone who disagrees is a disturbance in the force. I used to think I had it all figured out until I didn’t.
I don’t mind people taking shots at me. Life would be very boring without dissension.
I really do have to go now. Later.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
I'm sorry this is a load of crap, did you read his response to Cody's post?
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2011 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think anyone that talks in absolutes about Tyler Greene
on either extreme are too entrenched in their position. I can understand why people aren’t sold on him, but you can’t just ignore those type of AAA numbers either. I side with the fanclub on this one, mostly because our team isn’t good and our middle infield sucks.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 25, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't want you to get "run off" like we're accused of doing to people sometimes. I don't like to see anybody get turned away around here.
but your tone has been consistently condescending, and lampshading it by admitting as much isn’t enough to make that any less than irritating on a blog full of people who have, by and large, considerable “experience” in following baseball—in studying it, in reading about it, in watching it.
I’m totally willing to respect the position you’ve gained with your kind of experience, but I think you need to try harder to respect mine and CodyG’s and whoever else’s you disagree with. My experience, from several years of writing professionally about baseball and (an admittedly briefer) lifetime of following it, tells me that in baseball, more than in life, many answers are ascertainable by empirical analysis. (In life, as well, I find that thinking critically is at least as useful as throwing up one’s hands and saying, “Well, it is what it is!” But that’s the English major in me talking.)
Is everything? No. But to dismiss 40 years of research on the subject from thousands of baseball experts with a reductive “math equation or computer program” jibe is going to rankle people who’ve kept up with this research and used it to inform (and enhance) their own baseball experience.
We often have a tone problem on this blog because there are so many statistically inclined people and so few who aren’t, but it goes both ways; if you want respect for your position you have to respect the one that happens to be the considerable majority around here.
by DanUpBaby on Aug 25, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Respect goes both ways I agree
But “please don’t be condescending to people who arrogantly question your intelligence and your right to exist on the same plane with their superior baseball knowledge”, isn’t exactly the kind of plea for respect that many people will listen to I’m afraid,
I have immense respect for people who have such a vast understanding of sabremetrics. What I can’t respect are people who use that knowledge to denigrate and mock others who don’t agree with the conclusions that they reach. If you are running people off, well gee, I wonder why.
I responded to a post requesting an assessment of Tyler Greene. I gave one and was immediately attacked because my opinion didn’t gel with that of others. My methods of assessment were attacked and mocked. I made one post some time later in which my choice of words was not ideal (which I admitted to) which was then used as a benchmark for attacking me further. I don’t have a problem with disagreement, but intolerance of differing opinions is another story. My “tone” as you put it, was reflective of the “tone” of those who didn’t like what I had to say. If you throw shit at someone, don’t expect flowers tossed back.
There, I’m done. Time to move on.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
"If you throw shit at someone, don’t expect flowers tossed back."
eventually somebody has to make with the flowers, and however victimized you think you might be I’d just as soon it would be you. I don’t think you’ve given the sabermetric approach anything like a fair shake today, and while I apologize about how quickly people can pile on in this kind of thing that’s the inevitable result of the numbers here.
people don’t show a sufficient respect for your position, in my opinion, because you’ve failed to back it up with a rationale beyond “I’ve watched a lot of baseball, and—”. sabermetrics doesn’t have a monopoly on analytical thought; no matter your viewpoint it’s a prerequisite for commenting here, I’d hope.
Well your last paragraph clearly tells me what I had been told by others before coming here.
Which was if I didn’t have a good grasp of sabermetrics I would not be welcome. It’s too bad too because except for the issue of Tyler Greene, I agree with much of the other points of view here, I just didn’t use sabermetrics to get there. My non sabernetric baseball knowledge is appreciated elsewhere so my brief sojourn here is done, No hard feelings though, you created a community that you are comfortable in and my particular style doesn’t fit in, I can deal with that. Happy trails and may the Cardinals win it all in 2012.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
The first time I read DanUp's last sentence, that's how I read it as well
Which confused me, because that doesn’t sound like anything DanUp would write about the commenters on this site. Re-reading it, though, I think he is trying to say that analytical thought is a prerequisite for commenting here, not sabermetrics.
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, obviously
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's be clear here:
This is not the issue:
I responded to a post requesting an assessment of Tyler Greene. I gave one and was immediately attacked because my opinion didn’t gel with that of others.
For starters, you weren’t attacked, you were merely asked why you felt this way despite evidence suggesting the opposite. At that point you seemed to take things personally, and the gloves came off. Nothing much productive was said after that point.
Secondly, your view is not one that is flying solo. There are plenty of people at VEB who don’t think that Greene can be a valuable starting middle infielder in MLB. I’m one who has very strong misgivings about a guy who strikes out as much as Greene does and has low contact rates to boot. However, his second half in Memphis has been impressive, his plate discipline has been better in each of the last two years, and he has OPS’s over .800 in his brief stints in the majors this year. Combine that with good tools (arm, speed, power) and you have a player that should be given a shot since he will be out of options after this season. We need to know if he can play. So let him play in September and lets find out. If he stinks it up, I have no problem letting him go. If he doesn’t , we get a cheap middle infielder for next year and maybe a few years after that.
That’s not why you got singled out. You got singled out because you’re dismissive of other people who don’t have the same “experience” as you do at watching baseball and use “only” statistical analysis to evaluate players.
Which is actually pretty far from the truth. I know for a fact that CodyG does a lot of reading of scouting reports, because he and I share that trait and also have a shared interest in the draft and in the development of prospects. So we rely on that information because good statistical information is hard to get at the college and high school level. As we get better information and players play with players who are have similar levels of talent, statistical analysis becomes more and more important in evaluating players. Why? Because analysis like what Cody pointed out to you has been proven to correlate with MLB success.
Here’s the key thing that you don’t seem to be getting:
Your opinion is your own. However, you seem to think that we should just trust that your opinion is right when you give only subjective, anecdotal (not to mention vague and unsubstantiated) information to base it on. It would be one thing if John Sickels came in here and made a case against Greene, because he’s a well respected in the field of evaluating baseball talent (Not to mention, Sickels would use objective, quantitative analysis). Nobody here knows you or your past predictions, prejudices, and biases so it’s a little hard to take you opinion at face value when our statistical evidence points to the contrary (For instance, many have long thought that Sickels’ overvalued minor league relievers, and learned in his thread today that he’s taking a look at this. That’s being constructive, which is the opposite of what you’re being). You’ve given no respect to anyone else’s viewpoint, yet demand respect for your own? That’s not the way this works. Mutual respect is earned, not demanded.
My methods of assessment were attacked and mocked.
What methods? I’ve yet to see you name a “method” you use to “assess” a player. “Watching baseball for 40 years” is not a method for evaluating talent. If it was, my great uncle would be an amazing judge of talent, he’s been watching the Cardinals since Joe Medwick. I like hearing him tell stories about Stan and Gibby and Brock, but I wouldn’t expect him to be better at evaluating current players just because he’s watched a lot of baseball.
I don’t have a problem with disagreement, but intolerance of differing opinions is another story.
Again, I don’t see anywhere in the thread where anyone was intolerant of your opinion. Please point that out. There were a number of people who were upset with your complete lack of respect for their opinion and utter disregard for their methods of evaluation in favor of their own. Honestly, sir, it seems to me that you’re actually using the behaviors that you claim to be victimized by.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Holy fuck that's long
………………
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
haaaave you met fourstick?
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Not in that capacity he hasn't
/dick joke.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Aug 26, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Well, if it's the last thing he reads on the site,
best to make it a good one.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think I'm going to change my avatar.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It's encouraging that I've so clearly laid out my dislike for avatar changes
that I’m rarely the first to make this response.
Now I just need everyone else (especially frequent posters – fourstick, I’m looking at you) to adopt avatars as well.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Isn’t fourstick’s lack of an avatar in and of itself an avatar?
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
its what the invisible man would have to use
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
Hey!
I lost an avatar bet to someone and he’s yet to send me the avatar he thinks I should have….
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/11/14/1813133/in-which-the-robot-comes-to-collect
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
How in the hell did I miss this post?
Damn — when I get minute I will throw this avatar up for your viewing pleasure, sir. Sorry about the confusion, I simply must have missed this thread somehow.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
to what?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
May I have your old one?
Please?
From the blackhole of the Iowa TV market.
now that would be hilarious
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
How so?
His previous one is the one with StL inside the outline of the state of Iowa, right? Or am I confused?
From the blackhole of the Iowa TV market.
azru looks at avatars
so he hates it when people change them. bgh gets a new one and you take bgh’s. I can just see azru talking to you thinking that he’s talking to bgh and then cussing up a storm when he realizes what he’s done.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I see what you mean. That's a good reason not to do it.
But it is a cool avatar all the same. Shit.
From the blackhole of the Iowa TV market.
actually, it would be great for a laugh.
like the time that everybody was supposed to switch theirs over to the Simpson’s Ozzie Smith just to see what his reaction would be. Then again, only a couple actually did that.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I have zero ties to Iowa
And I agree it’s a really cool avatar
Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Can someone shed some light on why Tyler Greene deserves
a full-time chance based on his minor league numbers and lack of opportunity in the majors, while Nick Stavinoha never did?
Stav in AAA:
age 26: .337/.366/.518 (427 PA’s)
age 27: .282/.353/.490 (259 PA’s)
age 28: .390/.411/.680 (107 PA’s)
Stav in majors: .234/.256/.325 (278 PA’s)
Greene in AAA:
age 26: .284/.355/.456 (355 PA’s)
age 27: .336/.424/.623 (258 PA’s)
Greene in majors: .213/.303/.306 (357 PA’s)
Is the difference just because Greene plays SS and has speed? Is it because Stavinoha looks like Big Aaron Miles? Is it because he didn’t pass the “eye-test” as a major leaguer?
Just curious. How come no one ever trumpeted Stavi’s cause for more regular PT?
I’m completely in favor of giving Greene the rest of the season to show his worth, I would not have been in favor of it at any point prior to the Cards falling out of it though.
I don’t ask this to be condescending…just wondering. I guess the real answer is probably what I mentioned above about playing SS and having speed. Neither are long-term MLB players IMO.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:04 PM EDT reply actions
That was during Nick Stavinoha month.
I remember they redirected the site to WeLoveStav.com for a bit.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
I always wondered what happened to that guy azrustavatar
by DanUpBaby on Aug 25, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Sure.
We have those sometimes.
It wasn’t written about Stavinfection though.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Well I suspect much of it has to do with the players on the ML roster
So when comparing Greene to the black hole of suck — why not?
When comparing Stav to Holliday, Berkman, Craig, Ludwick, etc — why?
i am surprised that stav only has 278 pas
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
no, the ghost of todd burns was reading his stat line wrong
That’s his OPS.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
it's almost entirely the positional difference
there’s a massive gap between a below-average corner outfielder and an average-ish shortstop in terms of offensive expectations. for what it’s worth I think stavinoha is a better hitter than he’s shown in the major leagues, or at least he was, but given his positional limitations that doesn’t make him a major league player.
but no one trumpets him as a bench player...
in fact…most VEB’ers are absolutely revolted by him (myself included). Meanwhile Greene puts up similar numbers in similar ML playing time and everyone disregards it as "small sample size)
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
with the way Tony uses his bench
I have to disagree. If he was a PH only, I could see your point, but Tony never uses his roster like that.
just because Stav's offense upside is a league average bat for SS
that doesn’t mean we want to see him on the roster getting the occasional start in RF.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
so you'd advocate Stavnoha's bat at starting SS if he could play average-ish defense there?
ok…maybe not now…but 2 years ago?
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
it's easy to be rational about a player that offers some upside
than a player who you feel a compulsive need to bury, lest tony la russa dig him up again. I think most people get that stav isn’t a true-talent .256 OBP guy, but you’re less likely to regress when it’s both not especially important to the team’s future and, however cynical this is, helps you prove your point.
Let me put it this way
Based on his minor league numbers, age, major league numbers in limited playing time, and whatever scouting there is of him, Stav projects to be around a .300 wOBA hitter with bad defense in a corner outfield spot. That’s a replacement level player.
Based on those same factors, Greene projects to be a .300 wOBA hitter with average defense at shortstop. That’s nearly a league average player.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
is his defense really average?
I’ve never really looked at the new stats for defense much. I’m just going off of his error totals in the minors and what i’ve seen of him at the ML level. I’ve never been impressed by his D at all
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's at least average
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i'd say its average at best.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
i'd say it's average at worst
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know....he's made tons of errors everywhere he's been...
what are you going off of?
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
he has good range and a good arm
errors are something that end up being pretty marginal when it’s all said and done, at least compared to range.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
but 17 in roughly half a season of innings?
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he'll continue at that pace
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
players always make more errors in the minors due to shittier field conditions
Brendan Ryan had a worse fielding percentage at shortstop than Greene did in the minors.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
but his pace didn't slow any in the majors....
if it were shitty field conditions or a shitty first baseman…maybe I could get behind this thought….but Greene still has about as many errors as all the other Memphis SS’s combined
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that's because he's the starting shorstop
The average fielding percentage for the mexican league is .976. I can’t find the average shortstops, but I think it’s safe to assume that it’s lower than the average across all positions.
In that light, Greene’s career .951 fielding percentage at short does not look so bad.
And again, it’s too small a sample size and errors are too arbitarily assigned to make any beans out of that at the major league level.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Look, if you're going to argue that Greene is a bad fielder on the basis of his fielding percentage in the minors and during his 300 plate appearances in the majors
I’m afraid I just can’t get behind that.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
His minor league TZR
Which is like a shitty version of UZR, but still far fucking better than fielding percentage, is above average.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
defense metrics are pretty much all shitty...
thats why i don’t pay much attention to them….like I said…just watching him play he doesn’t look very impressive and then the error totals are consistently sky high
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean...as spectacular as Ryan is..
with his range and arm…I’d have a hard time getting behind him if he was making errors at an Offerman-esque rate
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
so defensive metrics are shitty
except for errors?
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
at this point...
pretty much. Its not like its the only thing that matters…….but chances are if you have a shit ton of errors….you probably aren’t fielding very well.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
TZR takes into account errors
And as I said, errors are far less impactful than range.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
what makes fielding percentage a better defensive metric?
it seems to me to be the worst on its face—it makes almost no allowance for range and it’s as subjective as any of the other metrics.
does that mean you think Derek Jeter is a great SS?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
The numbers aren't similar though
by runs created, Greene’s MLB numbers are considerably better than Stav’s, just due to his OBP.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Aug 25, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is a large part of it
Stav’s like 2 wins below average with just his defense alone and the positional adjustments are enough to say it’s ~3 win bump just comparing defense.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
*comparing defense and position differences.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
For me, it's the walks
Stav doesn’t walk much, Greene does.
Walking to my mind is the single most important thing a batter can do. Green consistently walks at a very nice clip. Even hitting below .200 in the majors this year, he has a OBP over .300. That’s remarkable, IMHO.
Then throw in the position. Greene plays SS, where offense is at a premium, Stav plays corner outfield, where there is a glut.
Greene doesn't walk much...
he walks about the same as Stav and strikes out way more
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
meh...i guess he walks more than Stav...
but he does strike out a ton
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
And Stav barely walks at all
His hitting was way too dependent on his average. Sure, he had a little power. But surprisingly little.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
minor league career...
Greene 8.3 % walk rate…Stav. 6.3%…Greene is better, but nothing to point to really when arguing his viability as a ML’er
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, Stav's is actually a bit higher than I expected
Where did you get those? I’m having trouble finding minor league total rates like that.
Also, Stav’s walk rate in his time in the majors has stunk (2.9%), for what it’s worth. Greene’s has transitioned just fine.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
just did the math using his stats from b-ref
…no fair using his major league stats since “SSS”….thats been a key to the pro-Greene argument
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh, good point
Which is why I said “for what it’s worth”. Suffice it to say, I have way more faith in Greene’s ability to take walks at any level than Stav’s.
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
Because Stav is a big clunky outfielder who really can't play outfield
He doesn’t profile as a player who could fill a potential need for this club. Greene, OTOH, is an athletic, toolsy middle infielder, something this club could certainly use and has been looking around for for sometime.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't Berkman a big clunky outfielder that can't really play outfield?
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
if stavinoha were any risk of putting up a 170 OPS+, or even a 120 OPS+, he wouldn't be in memphis
obviously if you’re lance berkman you can make up for your awful defense with the bat. stavinoha is a below-average hitting left fielder and a below-average fielding left fielder.
Berkman is one of the greatest hitters of the past decade
Stavinoha is no Lance Berkman
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess the way I see it...they are both AAAA players...
that being said…I’m all for Greene getting regular time down the stretch just in case I’m wrong
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that's the big thing
That’s a 1.5 win difference right there.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention
He can play above average defense at 2B and 3B too, which gives him some value as a defensive replacement.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i acknowledge theres a difference...
I just don’t see Greene as having much of a ML career….especially nothing close to what he’s done in the minors. At this point there is no harm trying just to see whether to bother retaining him for next season
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Greene, considering his defensive value
Which is roughly average (I think we can agree on that) at shortstop, does not need to be a very good hitter to be a valuable player. He certainly does not need to hit anywhere close to how he has in the minors.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather have a guy play above avg. defense and is a good hitter..
damnit ….we are never going to have a SS
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Brendan Ryan was a major league shorstop
His shitty hitter far overcome by his ozzian defense. Greene may end up being close to Ryan in value.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
that would be nicer than nice if it happened
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
that would be nicer than nice if it happened
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm surprised no one has brought this up...
Greene’s offensive profile in the majors is pretty significantly better than Stav’s IMHO. Stav has a whopping .256 OBP which is mind-numbingly awful with the slugging percentage of Aaron Miles.
wOBA FWIW tells me I’m right with Stav at a .254 wOBA and Greene at a .283 woBA. Their BABIPs are both similarly unlucky (Or what they should be depending on how down you are on them).
Anyway, Greene while still awful at MLB level, has done considerably better than Stav. Plus add in corner outfield plus defense plus speed and Tyler Greene absolutely demolishes Stav as a player.
by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 25, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A few reasons:
- Greene plays a solid defensive SS and has the arm and range to play 2B, SS, and 3B at an average level. That’s more valuable than Stavinoha’s fat ass lumbering around in left field.
- If you look at their MLB lines you’ll notice a pretty significant difference: Plate discipline. Stav can’t hit .256 in the majors because he doesn’t walk enough, and his minor league lines bear this out. Greene, on the other hand, can be a valuable player hitting .256 because he might OBP around .325 or .330, and a .256/.330/.350 guy at SS is a league average or better player if his defense is decent. That player would cost considerably more than Tyler Greene to acquire on the market, so therein lies his value. I think that just about every team has 3-5 Nick Stavinoha’s in the high minors.
- Greene has far more tools than Stav does. He has speed, he can play multiple positions, etc. It’s like comparing Mark Hamilton and Jon Jay. Hamilton has the better AAA numbers, but he’s a signpost and can play one position, whereas Jay can move around the outfield, play good defense, and hit a little. He’s got more utility, therefore he’s merits an opportunity.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
does this twitter account not exist anymore?
it was one of the best
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 25, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Indians close to deal for Thome
I would love to see him finish where it all started
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 25, 2011 7:21 PM EDT reply actions
azruvatar: perpetually single for a reason
fire tony larussa
by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 25, 2011 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually lead off all my first dates with
“Are you bleeding, you know, like, right now?”
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"down there"
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
"I don't trust anything that bleeds for three days and doesn't die"
And that concludes today’s episode of “mattybobo makes uncharacteristically off-color jokes on VEB”
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
by mattybobo on Aug 25, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What was that from?
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
south park
and its “five days” but whatev
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
Damn it
I knew I would screw it up somehow. Did I really type three?
Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.
my immediate thought was "i WISH it was only three days"
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
by IHeartBoog on Aug 25, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you'll find this out yourself when they finish the operation
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Do you ask that at the door or after you've gotten in the car?
From the blackhole of the Iowa TV market.
for eating peanut butter, no less.
like how is that a hormonal thing? chocolate maybe, even ice cream, but not PB
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
well they do keep us in cages around here
plus i ran out of celery
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
Secretary of the (VEB) Tyler Greene Fan Club
In addition, IHeartFreesie
the sun is setting -- that means I get to leave my cubicle soon!
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
the sun is up and I'm just getting settled in mine.
But it’s Friday and hopefully the day goes fast..
by Tuning in from Korea on Aug 25, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmm
there may be some unintended comparisons among my comments this evening.
Fine Print: Each comment is to be taken as a thought in and of itself unrelated to any other comments that may appear under this moniker. This poster is not liable for any inferences or connections not explicitly made within the confines of a single comment. This post is not liable for any acts of violence enraged women may resort to as a result of reading these comments. (vivaelbirdos.com/lawyer)
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
this is one of those moments
I’m glad spants isn’t around.
/fear
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Heh
JoeStrauss Joe Strauss
Here’s challenge to local talkers: If you bring heat on airwaves, bring it to the clubhouse, too. Practice some journalism. #Outrageous
JH__Schmidt St.Louis Local
@
@JoeStrauss remember the time TLR called you out in a press conference and uncle Bernie had to do your talking for you? Me too.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 25, 2011 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
that's hilarious
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 25, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, y'all
the gamethread is active, if you were wondering
Manchester City: 6 points, 2-0, 1st in EPL
Sergio Aguero: 2 Gs, 1 A
Edin Dzeko: 2 Gs
Toni Kroos, #39, MF, Bayern Munich, Germany, my cousin
by cardinalswsbound on Aug 25, 2011 8:14 PM EDT reply actions
FYI
Clicking this from the mobile app leads me away from the mobile app and to safari.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Aug 25, 2011 8:38 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
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